Open Mike 14/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 14th, 2017 - 284 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

284 comments on “Open Mike 14/11/2017 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. eco maori 1
    14 November 2017 at 7:05 am

    I’m going to stick to my usual watering hole that way the only people that will be laughing at me will be my children it’s a shed on the farm were my son in law stays as some people will turn a fart into a hurricane . I consume about 6 cans a fortnight so my tolerance is low.

    I’m using a vapor pipe to help quit smoking and I am finally beating the habit I feel a lot fitter all ready what I do is I leave the smokes at home and just take the vapor now don’t listen to the people who say vaping is as bad as smoking because in my experience its a lot cheaper and less smelly so even if there are some negative effects all the positive effects by far out weight the negative . So all you people like me who have moko you look at them and know this that no one is going to love care teach your moko like you so I SAY go and buy a vapor and use it to quit smoking so we can be around longer to look after OUR moko when you start using a vapor it is like starting to smoke and after a few splutters you will get use to it give it a try. Good to see publicity about equal pay for our lady’s Ka pai

    • eco maori 1.1
      14 November 2017 at 6:01 pm

      I’m not gay that is a strategy I use to keep the other Lady’s away as the person that I bullshit hit on knows that I’m strait and this works and I have enough drama to last 10 life times now .

      A few years back when I finished Kiwi fruit packing I ran into one of my old bosses he said that he had a job for me managing 1500 cow farm . Now calving was only one month away and I new that this was going to be a hard task I said that I wanted my own staff yea right I had to keep some of the old Idiots and as soon as I was out of sight they would fuck around . I had 2 positions to fill one was my son and the other my son begged me to hire his cousin I did not want to because I had employed him before and I was not impressed. I hired my nephew .
      One morning I got him to feed out and my son to wash the plant . Our good tractor broke down so he was lining up the old tractor up to load mag c into the bucket buy the office as he got off the tractor he did not have it in neutral and I got pined by the bucket and the mag c which is like cement bays on a pallet both my leg’s got broken .
      I heard the breaks 4 snaps clearly he panicked and was trying to start the tractor I said fuck that put tractor in neutral and use the tires to roll it away from me he was not strong enough to do this so I called my son to help he did it by him self and had the cheek to ask if I could walk to the truck the same one I got now well after a few foul words they carried me to the truck we went to the house and tried to get a helicopter no go there so I got both my sons to drive me to the Rotorua hospital which was one hour 20 minutes away Taupo was 10 minutes closer but I new that they would send me to Rotorua .
      When we got to the hospital and the staff pulled me out of the truck I screamed fuck that was the most pain I have ever felt with both feet flopping around man .
      They give me some gas and the next morning waking up embarrassed as I remembered I had been telling all the hospital staff that I was a chief Rangatira well I don’t no were that came from. And I was telling my siblings that story on saturday I’v got 2 Titanium rods hammered through my knee caps down to the breaks . It was my fate that my feet were not chopped off. one month later I was getting cows in at 3 pm with cast up to my ass on both leggs I would just have them sticking strait past the handle bars of my Quad and I had my best dog ever I just had to open the gate and he would get all the cows out and if there was a cow down he would not leave the gate so I would follow him in and see whats up with the cow . So in telling this story I got pissed and well some of you no the rest .
      Kia Kaha

      • eco maori 1.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 6:20 pm

        What’s up bill we know that Jacinda has more courage than you and I’m being nice
        Ka pai

        • eco maori 1.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 7:56 pm

          I wonder what they think they are going to achieve by bulling all my clients and there neighbors into not waving to me or recognizing or from being nice to me as I am to everyone I meet . Are they looking to improve there public Image we no that’s not hard to work out who likes to be bullied well no one.
          I have losted 5 of the 13 new clients I payed 10 x the cut price for good will because of these bullies . They don’t give a shit what have I done to them nothing they are just like key control freaks and don’t give a shit whom they cause harm having a compassionate and considerate thought is beyond them It is there alter ego that rules there thought process and who wants people like this in our state service well not me I will keep going till I win and the media no this is true as they are bullying you to. Kia kaha

          • eco maori 1.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 8:18 pm

            They are sending people into my wife’s workplace to get her sacked what has she dune to them she loves her job WTF
            Kia kaha

            • Union city greens 1.1.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 8:33 pm

              Mods, admin, what’s up with allowing these idiot posts?

              Surely they’re more suited to facebook or a twitter account nobody reads than a supposed serious left leaning forum.

              • Antoine …
                15 November 2017 at 5:08 am

                I think he is mentally unwell and could use some help rather than slagging off, but no one else here seems to see it

                • Union city greens …
                  15 November 2017 at 6:32 am

                  You are probably right, though note I wrote “these idiot posts” and not this idiots posts.

                  • Antoine …
                    15 November 2017 at 12:05 pm

                    So what should we do about it

                    • Union city greens …
                      15 November 2017 at 2:57 pm

                      Except asking the mods to intervene there’s nothing we can do about it.

                      We could all start submitting unsubstantiated delusional paranoid anecdotal treatises, but surely the standard platform has suffered enough already.

                    • lprent …
                      15 November 2017 at 3:26 pm

                      There isn’t a particular topic in OpenMike.

                      We generally leave all comments alone here until they get abusive, completely violate the general taste rules, start outright lying about facts, get repetitive or excessive, cause stupid flame wars, start causing the site legal issues or one of the other gotchas.

                      There is deliberate policy behind that. It means that people know that they can leave crap here rather than feeling that they must dump in the middle of topics that authors have chosen to write about. That simple decision by r0b to have a daily OpenMike massively reduced the moderator problems after we instituted it. After that there was absolutely no excuse for trolling other topics. Which makes it a lot easier to moderate the site.

                      So my best advice is that if you don’t like it, then treat it like any other places with lot of animals around. Look down often and don’t step in the crap.

  2. vto 2
    14 November 2017 at 7:11 am

    Like the way Adern is sticking it to the Australians

    Antithesis of John Key who presided over the period when Australia gleefully shat on us the most. And the Australians gave him their ‘highest’ honour. Says it all.

    This sums up the difference between this government and the last, between National Party voters and all other New Zealanders.

    • chris73 2.1
      14 November 2017 at 7:38 am

      Actions speak louder than words so what exactly will Jacinda Ardern achieve? I mean yeah it sounds good but if nothing changes, like Kiwis getting the same deal in Australia as Australians get in NZ then its all for nought

      But then I suppose it might take peoples attention away from Labour really wanting to sign the TPPA…

  3. Ed 3
    14 November 2017 at 7:41 am

    Kim Hill and John Campbell on Morning Report.
    Bliss.

    • Carolyn_Nth 3.1
      14 November 2017 at 7:58 am

      I suspect RNZ are mixing up the jobs a bit, with Espiner, Forbes on Checkpoint, etc – in anticipation of going RNZ+, with an expansion of the Checkpoint style into TV programmes. So, basically, giving their journos/hosts with TV backgrounds some more experience with the radio with pictures.

      And, hopefully, a John Campbell RNZ+ TV show is in all our futures – ditto Mihingarangi Forbes.

    • veutoviper 3.2
      14 November 2017 at 11:10 am

      A superb, dream partnership – they really spark off of each other! I love them to stay permanently. Have to say that Guyon gets up my nose sometimes. He sounded a little lost last night on Checkpoint but it was night one.

      It was good to hear this morning in a brief reference from Kim that Suzie Ferguson is on the mend after her urgent surgery for endometriosis and expected back before Christmas.

      • patricia bremner 3.2.1
        14 November 2017 at 3:58 pm

        I am not always a fan of Suzie’s style, but I wish her well

        That complaint can be a killer, wrapping round and causing organ failure. Surgery often has to be repeated, so I hope she and her medical team “beat the bastard”.

        Good luck and good wishes Suzie.

        • veutoviper 3.2.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 4:42 pm

          Same, Patricia re not always being a Suzie fan.

          When she announced on 2 Nov that she was having urgent surgery the very next day – possibly a hysterectomy – she was open about it being endometriosis and RNZ put up an article/interview on this horrible condition. I also put up a comment on it and included a link to the NZ Endometriosis website for anyone who wanted to learn more about the condition.

          https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02112017/#comment-1408621

          Here is the NZ Endo Support link again – http://www.nzendo.org.nz/about-endometriosis/index.html

          I know from a friend’s experience just recently we have some remarkable female doctors here in Wellington who are experts in Endo so I am sure Suzie is in good hands.

    • mary_a 3.3
      14 November 2017 at 1:00 pm

      Ed (3) … Broadcasting at its best . A Natz nightmare. Brilliant 🙂

    • SpaceMonkey 3.4
      14 November 2017 at 1:17 pm

      Isn’t just! It’s a dream team for me. So great to wake up listening to them and they have a great rapport.

  4. cleangreen 4
    14 November 2017 at 7:45 am

    Aunty Jacinda or ‘combatant Jacinda’?

    Since National has defined themselves as ready to fight hard dirty campaign to unseat the new fledgling labour coalition Jacinda is best to use the same strategies National used.

    Jacinda needs to ‘neutralise’ and remove all the National Party ‘policies’ purposefully left as ‘fish hooks’ within every nook & cranny in all Government agencies to stymie the new labour lead government, so remove those toxic national policies so we then can “infuence” the real changes jacinda.

    Next and very urgently required for us is the needs to make urgent changes within our provinces; – like such as bring back all rail freight & passenger services everywhere, giving us transport options to increase productivity & make environmental improvements, – and that will upset National no end and stop their stupid plans to increase climate change emissions using ‘truck mania’.

    • Wayne 4.1
      14 November 2017 at 8:10 am

      Yes, why not bring back socialism. That is what the people, including NZF voters want.

      • greywarshark 4.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 8:22 am

        Why not bring back responsible politicians who are acting for NZs and planning how to advance the country encouraging domestic businesses and jobs, not plan everything around export so the country can afford to pay for the flash things that your mates consider are essential and their right.

      • Robert Guyton 4.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 8:26 am

        Improvement after improvement from the new Government and now this, from Wayne! Who’d have thought Wayne would ever experience the epiphany he so clearly has; his suggestion, heart-felt I’m sure, though he’s played it low key, that we should open our hearts to socialism, and his realisation that New Zealanders yearn for the sharing and caring socialism brings; it’s a red-letter day for Wayne, and by association, all of us!

      • mac1 4.1.3
        14 November 2017 at 8:46 am

        An article from Australian commentator Peter Fitzsimons quotes Winston Peters.

        ” “A key part is our MMP proportional representation system, which we have had since 1996. This allows for a diversity of political voices to be heard, and a diversity of politics to be represented. It is inclusive. There are not just two main voices, there are many. It works for us. When I was elected to Parliament, there were just four Maori in parliament. We now form 24 per cent. The system fosters progressive politics.”

        What Wayne calls ‘socialism’ might be better reported as “progressive politics”.

        That’s what NZF voters preferred along with Green and Labour voters.

        56 versus 44.

        MMP enabled this.

        Progressive politics. Independent voices speaking truth to power. Significant change.

        • tracey 4.1.3.1
          14 November 2017 at 11:13 am

          Socialism, I think, in Wayne’s mind means anything not done by National.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1.3.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 3:33 pm

            Or maybe he thinks equal to communism? A popular error on the right.

          • greywarshark 4.1.3.1.2
            14 November 2017 at 5:49 pm

            Perhaps socialism, is doing anything without getting money or in kind payment for it. Murray Ball did a take on choice and neo lib with a cartoon of a new mother offering her breasts to the baby, each one labelled and priced.

            That’s involuntary socialism and possibly some well off women do find it very
            satisfying, and a new experience to give away something, though of course it is all being kept in-house so it’s just giving advantage to one’s own.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.4
        14 November 2017 at 8:52 am

        😆

        Now you sound like David Bennett. What a pair of clowns.

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.5
        14 November 2017 at 8:54 am

        Yes, why not bring back socialism.

        Er, bring “back” socialism? Was there a bit of NZ’s history I wasn’t told about?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.5.1
          14 November 2017 at 8:59 am

          Don’t forget Labour introduced Communism, by stealth. So obviously that must’ve replaced the Socialism.

      • Morrissey 4.1.6
        14 November 2017 at 10:11 am

        Wayne, what people said of you in parliament still applies…

        https://timewantsaskeleton.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/asshole.gif

      • Psych nurse 4.1.7
        14 November 2017 at 10:40 am

        Wayne, have you finally seen the light. More We less Me.

      • cleangreen 4.1.8
        14 November 2017 at 11:06 am

        Wayne I know you don’t want socialism either; – I didnt for most of my life and it seems we have failed this way.

        But why not think about this first.

        “Beyond Manapouri,” 50 years of environmental politics
        On today’s show Radio NZ ‘Nine to noon with Kathryn Ryan.

        14th November 2017.

        This interview with Catherine Knight is brain food for us all even the hardnosed Very righ National party today.
        Preliminary thoughts; – my journey to realise we need to now get serious about our environment.
        I was a young 23 yrs old kiwi new tradesman Electrician in 1966 that firstly did my duty to NZ in an “NZ Army ‘National service'” training then went to work at the Manapouri “west Arm” of the power scheme to work on the power station tunnel project then went to the MOW Turangi power scheme.

        I observed then we had higher ‘environmental awareness’ then, than we do today.

        So we have gone backwards my friend and we do need to turn it around and ‘instill the environmental awareness’ again after a 25 yr hiatus.

        Please consider this for our childens future.

        ==================================================================Subject: FW: Kathryn Ryan interviews Catherine Knight author of a new book ‘Beyond Manapouri” environmental issues in NZ. http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

        A good listen.
        09:05Beyond Manapouri, 50 years of environmental politics

        Aratiatia Rapids Photo: Clive Madge
        Environmental historian, Catherine Knight examines the catalogue of missed opportunities since the birthplace of the Manapouri environmental movement. Her new book, ‘Beyond Manapouri: 50 years of environmental politics in New Zealand’ is particularly critical of the lack of political leadership in the last 25 years. Catherine Knight is an Honorary Research Associate at the School of People, Environment and Planning at Massey University.

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

        Beyond Manapouri, 50 years of environmental politics
        Environment
        about 1 hour ago
        Environmental historian, Catherine Knight examines the catalogue of missed opportunities since the birthplace of the Manapouri environmental movement. Her new book, ‘Beyond Manapouri: 50 years of environmental politics in New Zealand’ is particularly critical of the lack of political leadership in the last 25 years… AUDIO
        Listenduration25′ :31″
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

        – a good listen.

        • Ad 4.1.8.1
          14 November 2017 at 12:27 pm

          Manapouri protest did not stop the dam. It just stayed at a regulated water level.

          It did not stop Tiwai Point aluminium smelter. Didnt alter it.

          It did not even stop major business inside a National Park. The tunnel and generator any continues upgraded.

          It’s a heroic protest, but by no means a perfect one.

          • cleangreen 4.1.8.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 12:59 pm

            Hi Ad,
            Yes that may be so;

            But we dont have the same ‘environmental awareness” now with public “actions” today as we saw then do we? Yes I recall all the Dam projects in NZ from that time to.

            During the 1960’s when at the Turangi project (Tongariro Power Scheme) we had many more environmental considerations then to consider, as the series of dams were built there over the 1000 KM square area the dam project covered of creeks streams ect’ as I was heavily involved in then.

            Now we see all our water ducts alongside our roads take the road runnoff and deposit it into our rivers and lakes and “road pollution runnoff”” is a global issue especialy in europe.

            http://www.oecd.org/env/the-cost-of-air-pollution-9789264210448-en.htm

            We in NZ are now very slack as I pointed out so we need to raise the “awareness again” and that was my principle driving point

        • weka 4.1.8.2
          14 November 2017 at 12:59 pm

          Can you please put actual links to what you are cut and pasting? It’s not hard to do.

      • tracey 4.1.9
        14 November 2017 at 11:08 am

        Like John Key’s government you mean? Remember when he called WFF “communism by stealth” and then kept it once elected ? That means he (and you) were part of a communist government my friend…

      • tracey 4.1.10
        14 November 2017 at 11:12 am

        Can you name, with evidence, that last NZ Government/s which was Socialist?

        “a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.”

        Just interested under which governments in our history the means of production etc was regulated by the community as a whole?

        Otherwise it is that slightly annoying habit you have of pretending to be rational and on high ground while slinging snide abuse in the form of epithets in place of counter argument.

      • veutoviper 4.1.11
        14 November 2017 at 11:16 am

        Naughty!

        And cancel all those nasty FTAs. I wonder how many here know that NZ is part of a ASEAN-CER (NZ-Australia) FTA and has been since 2009.
        http://asean.org/?static_post=asean-australia-new-zealand-free-trade-area

        What’s Jacinda (and Winston and Damien O’Connor) up to in the Philippines at the ASEAN Summit?

        Oh dear. Good thing it ends today.

      • OnceWasTim 4.1.12
        14 November 2017 at 11:47 am

        Oh don’t be such a silly duffer Wayne!
        By the way, how’s all that ‘positioning’ coming along – a permanent appointment as a talking head rent-a-voice on the Sunday morning current affairs ‘shows’?

        • garibaldi 4.1.12.1
          14 November 2017 at 11:59 am

          Wayne ,if you don’t like Socialism then give us back all your tax payer funded perks and go and be a “self made” man. You, of all on here ,have done best out of Socialism.

          • marty mars 4.1.12.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 12:33 pm

            + 1 yep bet there’d be plenty of squeals if the snout had to come out the trough.

          • cleangreen 4.1.12.1.2
            14 November 2017 at 1:10 pm

            Brilliant garabaldi.
            And Wayne please give us back our taxes we ‘incrimentally ‘sunk into all those ‘Government SOE’s’ you sold off eagerly too, and faiednus as you never gave us anything back to eh?

      • Brigid 4.1.13
        14 November 2017 at 4:30 pm

        You are a sneaky fellow Wayne. Slipping that in there thinking we wouldn’t notice.

        It’s true isn’t it; you had a great childhood. Health care, education, houses, extensive rail network (remember the railway workshops where countless men learnt a trade), all provided by the state. You didn’t mind that at all did you.
        It served us all very well.

      • Ed 4.1.14
        14 November 2017 at 9:37 pm

        That would be wonderful.

      • North 4.1.15
        14 November 2017 at 9:52 pm

        Wayne Wayne W A Y N E !……you’re being hysterical darling. Or at least trying to make out you are. Chill !

  5. Adrian 5
    14 November 2017 at 7:56 am

    I felt great to wake up as a proud New Zealander this morning, several millions to teach kids to swim, suddenly South Marlborough residents are finding their quake claims are being settled a lot faster ( a quiet word from whom I wonder ), Jacinda holding the Aussies to account, shit that used to be in the too difficult basket actually getting done NOW !, and a plethora of other so very good-to-have-progress-on issues, and all to the melliferous tones of John Campbell and what must be the very personification of the mesmerising voice of a she-cobra about to strike, the absolutely
    delightful Kim Hill. The most intelligent radio tag-team of all time.
    Its really good to be a Kiwi these days.

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.1
      14 November 2017 at 8:05 am

      Yay! And Sepuloni has announced single mothers will no longer be issued with sanctions for not naming their child/ren’s father!
      nice one!

      On RNZ.

      And hopefully more to come.

      Green Party social development spokesperson Jan Logie said although her party’s policy went further, what they had agreed with Labour was a good start.

      “I will be hoping to work closely with the minister and providing a good evidence base for our policies as well as seeing how far we can get with this because we don’t have evidence that sanctions work, and we’ve got a lot of indications at the moment that the systems are causing harm.”

      Mike O’Brien from the Child Poverty Action Group said the government needed to look at increasing benefits if it wanted to make a difference to vulnerable families.

      “If you’re really serious about reducing poverty, then improving benefit rates, making some changes to Working for Families so you remove the discrimination against sole parents, a whole raft of those pieces that would make a really important and significant difference.”

      • marty mars 5.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 10:12 am

        Yes great news that s70A is going. Thank you to all the groups who have campaigned against this sanction. Now chuck the amendment in under urgency and get this sorted please.

      • Bill 5.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 10:37 am

        If that’s to be a signature approach of the Green Party, and it gets enough cut through to shift the (whatd’yem’callit?) public discourse(?), then I’ll be happily rowing back from where I’ve been heading 😉

        Explicitly qualified support with an equally explicit ‘pushing of the envelope’ gives me hope for a better three years than I was expecting a week or so back.

        Bugger. Just noticed it’s a quote from CPAG and not The Green Party that’s pointing to the need for a raft of improvements.

        So, okay. The Greens are offering qualified support and now just need to take a leaf out of CPAGs book 🙂

    • Cinny 5.2
      14 November 2017 at 9:22 am

      +1 Adrian 🙂

    • Grey Area 5.3
      14 November 2017 at 9:35 am

      +1. Takes a bit of getting used to but I’m managing it!

      It’s so refreshing after the suffocation of the past nine years. So good to have a government that’s doing what needs to be done rather than one which kept telling us what couldn’t be done and refusing to address the obvious especially when it was the right thing to do.

      And Kim Hill and John Campbell in the morning – intelligent, engaging, insightful radio.

    • cleangreen 5.4
      14 November 2017 at 11:42 am

      Bloody good to hear Adrian Good on Jacinda.

      We in far the distant ‘remote North Island East coast Gisborne /HB regions both are waiting now for our sixth year without our rail.

      Government are responsible for our rail washout here, and for the restoration of our railway service after it was washed out in March 2012, straight after the ruling National Government Minister of Transport Steven Joyce was believed to have pressured Kiwirail to sack 14 track maintenance staff and send those funds to Auckland for their commuter rail instead, and caused the storm blocked the drains with hillside slips and that washed out (only just 1km) of our 212 kms of rail and then refused to fix it over a later discredited ‘whitewashed report’ saying the service was not viablle, but we had an independant report prepared proving it was viable, by the BERL Economist Ganesh Nana (the same economist later during the election in 2017 who ruled Steven Joyce’s $11.7 billion defit hole he claimed labour had in their budget ‘was ficticious’.

      We rejoyce for the South Island’s east coast communities to recieve their rail restored for their services and soon the road also will be reopenned too.

      So we hope Jacinda does not forget to also ‘pressure’ Kiwirail to fix our rail they destroyed and reopen a modern efficient freight and passenger tourism rail service for us also before some Auckland guy succeeds to rob us of our rail for a cycleway!!!!!!!

      Please jacinda push those buttons to bring our rail services back to our isolated NI East coast region. “lets do this.”

      • OnceWasTim 5.4.1
        14 November 2017 at 12:08 pm

        “We rejoyce for the South Island’s east coast communities to recieve their rail restored …..”

        Christ @CG!. I know as we both enter our dotage we’re apt to forget things.
        I know you don’t really mean ‘reJoyce’ – but rather rejoice. He might be useful as a bit of ballast in the foundations somewhere along a restored Gisborne railway, but please – let’s not let a Joyce near anything to do with governance or business (going forward). Their skid marks are everywhere. Steven’s contribution is to NZ what that Barnaby is to Australia’s bugger’s muddle of a parliament. Then there’s an Alan who’s done more to jeopardise Qantas’ safety record than anyone – they’re flying on luck

        • cleangreen 5.4.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 1:16 pm

          Yes thanks tim,

          We over on the NI East Coast now truly hate Steven bloody Joyce with such venom as he is truly a slimly character we have met who hoodwinked most of our local choir of “civil leaders here with his bullshit, fluff & stuff, but he has well worn out his welcome here.

      • greywarshark 5.4.2
        14 November 2017 at 2:10 pm

        Good point. Just the thing that National and their ilk would do. Close the rail and then put a ‘Tourist venture” of a cycle track along that handy piece of land. Cycling is in, and heavy work is out.

        The world is made for those who want to get an appearance of being green and can spend most of their time traveling around following cycle tracks round the world, or railways (my favourite if I could afford it), or hunting for precious earth minerals or whatever bright idea they have unconnected with day to day life.

    • Whispering Kate 5.5
      14 November 2017 at 2:41 pm

      “and what must be the very personification of the mesmerising voice of a she-cobra about to strike, the absolutely delightful Kim Hill”.

      God, that has to be the best description of Kim Hill I have ever heard. I just hooted with laughter when I read it. Thank you Adrian. I couldn’t have described it better, just absolutely perfect .

  6. greywarshark 6
    14 November 2017 at 9:09 am

    Jacinda on TPP and David Parker.
    Jacinda has done the international thing and so has lost sight of previous NZ aspirations to be part of a great country that operated by and for NZs.

    David Parker worked as a litigation partner so would have idea of how ISDS could be an expensive disaster, so it might be one of those things that are such a threat they never get to be used.
    He helped get a Community Law Centre shows a good attitude.
    He managed Blis Technologies for a while – a NZ innovative company in the medical line.

    But neither of them likely to strike a discordant note from the main choir.

  7. Cinny 7
    14 November 2017 at 9:30 am

    english must have had a brain fade when making this accusation…. it was fine for him when the pm that quit aka key offered to take the Manus Island refugees, but as soon as Jacinda does the same it’s a whole different senario. But then key was never going to walk to talk, his offer was all for show.

    “Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is continuing to offer to help resolve the Manus Island crisis to “balance up with her own constituency” the Government’s support for the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade deal, National leader bill english says.”

    Take off your tin foil hat bill english, it’s not about winning votes or making the most money, it’s about people, once you get your head around that you might actually win an election for a change.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98848979/pms-manus-island-push-a-deflection-from-tpp–bill-english

  8. greywarshark 8
    14 November 2017 at 9:36 am

    The latest from Its Our Future NZ on TPP.
    TPPA Bulletin #99 November 2017

    Labour have caved in on the TPPA-11, but the agreement has yet to be signed. If the agreement goes ahead, the government can expect opposition in the streets.

    Kia ora koutou katoa,

    The news coming out of the TPPA talks in Vietnam last week were all over the place. An agreement was initially declared by Japan and Mexico, only to be contradicted by Canada. Jacinda Ardern then declared the negotiations had stalled indefinitely after Justin Trudeau failed to show up to a meeting of the TPPA-11 leaders. Finally, officials announced that they had reached agreement on the “core elements” of a new agreement, which they have now rebranded as the “Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership”.

    Where does this leave us? Good question. It would appear from the annexes to the ministerial statement (here and here) that only four outstanding items remain for negotiations and that these have been raised by Vietnam, Canada, Brunei Darussalam and Malaysia. New Zealand is a notable absence from this list, presumably because Ardern et al are content with the limited concessions that have been achieved on ISDS. To quote Jane Kelsey:

    “There is no change to the pro-investor rules or the core investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism. A provision that would allow foreign investors to use the TPPA’s ISDS mechanism to enforce contracts for infrastructure or natural resources has been suspended, as has the ability to challenge measures affecting certain financial investments. But investors can still use ISDS to enforce their special rights under the investment chapter, and the delegitimised ISDS process remains intact.”

    Needless to say, this is a disappointing. As Laura O’Connell-Rapira of ActionStation wrote in advance of the latest talks, Labour set us up to be let down by their negotiating position, as though they were simply making the best of a bad situation set in train by National. Jacinda continued to hold this line in an interview after the negotiations. Don’t buy this spin. If Labour were serious about ISDS they would have held the line in negotiations — four other countries stuck to their guns, and our negotiators could have done so as well. While the type of dispute for which corporations can sue our government has been narrowed, there are still significant areas of government policy that are under threat.

    ISDS is not, and has never been, the sole problem with the TPPA. Threats to PHARMAC, affordable medicine, intellectual property, regulation of e-commerce (which will become more and more important in the increasingly digital economy), the operation of State-Owned Enterprises and the operation of a progressive government procurement policy are also significant. As it stands, some of these threats have been suspended in the current TPPA-11, pending the possible re-entry of the United States to the agreement. While these suspensions are a welcome relief, Labour have effectively committed us to the same TPPA should the United States ever come back to the table.

    It’s Our Future and our friends at ActionStation campaigned in the lead up to the Vietnam negotiations on a platform that Labour ought to take the time to consult meaningfully with the public before committing us to any agreement in the TPPA-11. Labour were critical (in their select committee minority view) of the secrecy with which National conducted the TPPA negotiations, but have done no better themselves by proceeding with the agreement under the false pretense of an artificial deadline.

    To quote Jane Kelsey again:

    “The bad news is that the Labour government has endorsed the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, with the suspension of a limited range of items, at the ministerial and leaders’ meetings in Da Nang, Viet Nam.

    The good news is that the meeting failed to conclude the new deal – rebranded the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).”
    If the agreement goes ahead — and that is a big “if” — the agreement will require ratification in Parliament. We still have an opportunity to beat this toxic agreement by placing pressure on the government in future negotiations, and in the ratification process. The Greens have already made it clear that they will vote down the TPPA-11 in Parliament, and we would expect New Zealand First to do the same. The fact that Labour would have to rely on National to get the TPPA-11 agreement across the line is a measure of their hypocrisy.

    The struggle continues, and we’ll be coordinating actions to oppose the TPPA-11 when we have a better idea about the timelines. The demand in our recent open letter to Jacinda Ardern (which we hope to deliver this week) for full and transparent consultation with the public still stands. In opposition, Labour strongly criticised the economic arguments for the original TPPA, stating that the modelling used in the patsy National Interest Analysis overstated the benefits of the agreement while failing to take into considerations its costs (particularly those related to jobs and wealth distribution). Labour needs to commission a new National Interest Analysis for the TPPA-11 to inform meaningful public scrutiny of the potential agreement.

    In the meantime, Labour’s (welcome) position that they will not include ISDS clauses in any future agreements will be put to the test in the RCEP negotiations in Manila as we speak. While RCEP negotiations are nowhere near completion, it is important that the new government is held to a higher standard than National on these and other future negotiations.

    Ngā mihi koutou, keep posted and please get in touch at itsourfuturenz@gmail.com if you have any questions or comments.

    Stephen Parry
    It’s Our Future Coordinator
    Itsourfuturenz@gmail.com
    http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz

    P.S, for a round-up of the press coverage of the recent TPPA-11 negotiations, Bryce Edwards’ recent article in the Herald is a good starting point.

    • Adrian 8.1
      14 November 2017 at 10:20 am

      Yes, let’s go back to fortress NZ pre Euro Union, let’s not trade anything with anybody, let’s not compromise, let’s not collaborate, let’s just copy North Korea. Let’s not do this.

      • Reality 8.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 10:43 am

        Yes, let’s cut ourselves off from the world and become a south seas North Korea without the nukes. Even Chris Trotter is showing some understanding of the real world today.

        Our PM and David Parker are doing their best, as I see it, and to see all the squealing and complaining is a real let down. That’s not to say everything will be perfect, nothing ever is. The Greens may wish so, but it will not be so. Just what would be achieved by NZ throwing their toys out of the cot and having a sulk in the corner.

      • savenz 8.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 10:45 am

        If it was just about free trade fine, the trade agreements are not about free trade they are the opposite. Look at the IP for example, making medicines more expensive (many of which were largely subsidised by governments), it just goes on and on. If

        it was all about free trade for NZ exporters, why not export to Russia? Nope it’s political through and through and helps only lawyers and those already making a fortune. The rest is to keep everyone else from competing by keeping market dominance and stop change.

        • greywarshark 8.1.2.1
          14 November 2017 at 12:11 pm

          I reckon you have hit the button on TPP in that short comment savenz.

          Sometimes the right words can be short and sweet/sour. (Depend which side you are on.)

          and Reality
          We actually discuss things here and argue about points, and then consider them, and discuss them further. We are not just a bunch ‘squealing and complaining’. You could try and read what we are concerned about before you indicate your ignorance with that fine high-handed irritation you have adopted. It makes you sound like one of the entitled to whom all blessings flow.

          You ask: Just what would be achieved by NZ throwing their toys out of the cot and having a sulk in the corner.
          Would you really like to take part in a discussion on that, or are you a lazy thinker who just says TINA?

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.2
          14 November 2017 at 12:59 pm

          Nope it’s political through and through and helps only lawyers and those already making a fortune. The rest is to keep everyone else from competing by keeping market dominance and stop change.

          QFT

          The present system is a racket designed to keep the majority oppressed to the wants and desires of the rich.

      • cleangreen 8.1.3
        14 November 2017 at 12:08 pm

        Agreed Adrian,

        We are at a crossroads of loosing our country to coporates control so remember corporatates environmental record globally is grotesque and disgusting as they have no record or documents directing them to become “good Corporate global environmental citizens” of the world.

        Our ‘reality’ speaks for itself!!!

        If we want to protect our environment don’t allow corporate control over our NZ laws or involve these errant Corporations inside any agreements whatsoever with our NZ Government as we must remain “independant”.

      • greywarshark 8.1.4
        14 November 2017 at 12:25 pm

        Adrian
        Let’s you go back to your cup of tea and sit in the naughty corner. We haven’t been Fortress NZ since ever. And when things were tightened down, we actually managed well, though we hankered after foreign baubles and had to think creatively how to get them.

        Small things you were only allowed to build towards by getting Post Office vouchers at say today’s value of $2 a time, and you had to keep on visiting daily till you had enough to buy some delectable item from ‘overseas’. An overseas car could be brought back as an import, after using it during an overseas trip which we did. Both worked well for us and we were part of a thriving, eager NZ going upwards together.

        What an awful picture, people whose moans were so tiny compared to today’s, but the one’s who were making it wanted to ratchet up their own lifestyle.
        Bugger anyone else’s. And the problem was that they single-mindedly went after what they personally wanted and could get, by standing on other people’s shoulders.

        And that applies to the wealthy rentiers and the powerful unions alike. Both short-sighted, but particularly those unionists with eternal wage demands and not able to impose better systems that allowed them to share in the rising profits in a practical way that would encourage more understanding and co-operation between business and worker. The left had WEA and the idea of keeping informed and educated so as to keep up with the capitalist class, but it wasn’t promoted enough, and workers soon left it all to union leaders to organise and were not ready for them turning squishy when confronted with neo lib from their very own bosom-buddies.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.5
        14 November 2017 at 12:55 pm

        It’s not a question of going back to ‘fortress NZ’. NZ has always been a trading nation but there’s a difference being a trading nation to one which gives its sovereignty over to multi-national corporations.

        We could drop out of all the FTAs that we’re a part of, including the WTO, and have freer trade.

        Willing Buyer, Willing Seller

        How about we ask the people what constitutes when we want to allow trade with another nation rather than asking the corporations who really only want countries, the people, to guarantee their profits.

        • greywarshark 8.1.5.1
          14 November 2017 at 1:01 pm

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018621388/charles-finny-jane-kelsey-debate-tpp-developments
          7.26m
          Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern thinks the refashioned Trans Pacific Partnership is a ‘damned sight better than the last’. And it could be in effect in just a matter of months.

          There are still four issues up for neogitation but all 11 nations involved in the deal have now agreeed on every other aspect. The new deal also has a new name – it’s now the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for the Trans Pacific Partnership.

          Veteran trade negotiator Charles Finny has been following developments, as has TPP sceptic Professor Jane Kelsey. They join us to debate the issues around the deal.

          • cleangreen 8.1.5.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 1:35 pm

            Greywarshark.
            You speak higghly of Charles Finny here.
            This man is simply just another corporate trumpet so what is he doing there.???????

            he should be removed at all costs unless you want to sign NZ away to ruin under corporate private control!!!!

            “Veteran trade negotiator Charles Finny has been following developments,”
            No no no.

            • greywarshark 8.1.5.1.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 2:03 pm

              All that is quotes from Radionz cleangreen. I know nussing of Mr Finny Fishy. I must put quotes in italics to buffer myself from the indignant.

      • KJT 8.1.6
        14 November 2017 at 3:26 pm

        When we had the highest standard of living in the world. Please……………….

      • veutoviper 8.1.7
        14 November 2017 at 4:05 pm

        +1 Adrian. But some people seem to have taken your comment at face value, LOL.

        Also excellent back-up comments from Reality.

  9. OnceWasTim 9
    14 November 2017 at 9:44 am

    Beyond Manapouri, 50 years of environmental politics.
    A book by one really smart lady: Catherine Knight on RNZ Nine to Noon. (link not yet up)

    In the interview she identifies all that’s gone wrong with our public service over the past 25 years.
    Put succinctly in one statement (to paraphrase), Ministers have become the CEO’s customer, rather than The Public.
    CEO’s and senior management telling their Ministers what they think they want to hear, rather than truthful, honest policy advice.

  10. Morrissey 10
    14 November 2017 at 9:49 am

    Ten Reasons We Got Rid of National
    No. 9: John Key

    “I felt the actions weren’t those of a Prime Minister and I felt New Zealand should know that. It is because he is the PM that I went to the media. John Key feels he is untouchable.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11436978

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/new-zealand-prime-minister-john-key-criticised-for-joke

    http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/politics/eyes-wide-shut-the-governments-guilty-secrets-in-afghanistan/

    • tc 10.1
      14 November 2017 at 10:43 am

      SCF royal commission please.

      Plenty of folk lost everything they had with hotchin/bryers/petrovic/graham entities so why did SCF investors get 100% plus the at risk interest ? It has an odour to it.

      • SpaceMonkey 10.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 1:31 pm

        I cannot confirm but a little birdie assures me there was at least one well known South Island National MP who had a trust heavily invested in SCF.

  11. The decrypter 11
    14 November 2017 at 10:25 am

    Jacinda in Manila…..SO jACINDANILA.. clever A !!?

  13. Andre 13
    14 November 2017 at 10:38 am

    The Alabama special election to replace Sessions remains as watchable as ever.

    So far the papaya Palpatine has managed to duck having an opinion about Roy Moore, coz, you know, he’s too busy with his besties Pootee and Doody-Turdy. But he’ll be home soon.

    Will the Grabber-in-chief try to crush Moore, coz Moore’s not a star and only stars get to do that? Or coz he doesn’t want the competition?

    Will Don of the Deadbrains double down on boys will be boys, the more there are around him the better?

    The suspense is unbearable…

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/roy-moore-mitch-mcconnell-trump/index.html

  14. Whispering Kate 14
    14 November 2017 at 10:47 am

    If this new TPP is finally signed off with Labour and National agreeing with it then it all bodes well for the Green Party in years to come. Firstly many Labour voters will next time, vote for the Greens as the only progressive party left to vote for and secondly with climate change being a real and present danger to the planet earth, then their policies will only bring about good for the country. In future years there will be many displaced people from coastal properties etc and rising sea levels, Australia will be frying and there will be climate refugees from there and the Pacific. Yes, its all good for the future for the Green Party.

    Why nations are still concentrating on trading with each other with their heads in the sand it would seem they have this vision of a healthy future ahead of themselves, there is no vision, no urgency to tackle the pending serious weather conditions we are going to experience which will make trading the last thing on their minds. Now, if they spent as much time tackling this serious problem as they do trying to make even more profit trading around the world, then maybe this planet is in with a chance of being saved.

    • BM 14.1
      14 November 2017 at 10:53 am

      If Labour signs the TPP then it’s National again in 2020.

      • marty mars 14.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 10:58 am

        Lol yep and the frogs shall fall from the sky and the statues cry blood… give up rabble rouser, your lines are weak just like the gnats.

        • BM 14.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 11:04 am

          It will split the left vote.

          • weka 14.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 11:06 am

            and then they’ll vote National? Lol.

            • BM 14.1.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 11:25 am

              Be either a lot of non-vote or a sizable swing back to the Greens, which will push all those centrist voters back towards the far stable National.

              NZ First won’t feature in 2020, Peters has burnt his bridges with the rural community and especially the elderly.

              If you want proof, this article just recently from stuff.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98813714/if-youre-old-and-rich-youre-more-likely-to-hate-the-new-government

              They voted Peters because they thought he could reign in National especially around immigration, they didn’t want Labour and they certainly didn’t want to give the Greens any power.
              NZ First has lost half its voter block at least, that’s another 4% for National.

              • weka …
                14 November 2017 at 11:38 am

                A pretty large majority of NZF voters wanted NZF with Labour.

                Feelings at the start of a new govt are hardly predictive of how they will change their vote next time. There’s 3 years of Labour improving the economy and people’s lives.

                “The older people were, the more negative they were, the poll’s trend showed”

                And there’s a big class skew towards Labour from people with less wealth. Guess who dies earlier.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                14 November 2017 at 12:42 pm

                …which will push all those centrist voters back towards the far stable National.

                A political party that constantly lies is not stable and doesn’t bring about stable government or a stable society because its foundation is all myth.

          • marty mars 14.1.1.1.2
            14 November 2017 at 11:13 am

            It will be forgotten like the legacy of johnny hotfoot and bill nobody.

            • BM 14.1.1.1.2.1
              14 November 2017 at 11:20 am

              So you’re saying the TPPA is no big deal and was only a concern to all the tin foilers out on the fringes?

              • weka …
                14 November 2017 at 11:23 am

                It’s a big deal, but unlikely to cause Labour to lose the election*. Unless we get sued in the next 3 years I guess.

                *think it though BM. If Labour voters are pissed about the TPPA, who are they going to vote for instead?

              • marty mars …
                14 November 2017 at 11:31 am

                No I’m not saying that. Use your brain mate it’s not just for show.

                • BM …
                  14 November 2017 at 11:40 am

                  If’s it’s so easily forgotten it’s obviously not a big deal

                  • weka …
                    14 November 2017 at 11:42 am

                    Pretty weak BM.

                  • cleangreen …
                    14 November 2017 at 12:32 pm

                    BM dont get your nickers in a twist,

                    TPP will not survive; period; – so give away all that hot air to someone else we are sick of your whinning .

                    The world is on the brink of another GFC and a *climate change Catastophe nighmare of all proportion now so we won’t see these flimsy “fools trade” agreements go ahead now.

                    * http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2017/11/daunting-antarctic-sea-ice-plummet-could-be-tipping-point.html
                    13 November 2017
                    Newshub
                    ‘Daunting’ Antarctic sea ice plummet could be tipping point

                    Credit here to Martyn Bradbury Editor TDB for the monologue below on GFC.- and the link.

                    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/876082/stock-market-black-Tuesday-dotcom-bubble-Wall-street-crash

                    Martyn Bradbury Editor. – TDB.
                    One of the main concerns behind the scenes of the negotiations to be the next Government was the deep seated belief that the global economy is about to implode.
                    Since the 2007-2008 Global Financial Crisis, all the developed world has done is kick the day of market reckoning down the road with more and more money printing. At some point this band-aid won’t be able to stem the pressure building and it will rupture with a backlash that will make the depression look like a week without pocket money.
                    What will hit first? Economic armageddon or Environmental apocalypse?
                    It’s difficult to know what will hit us first, the Economic Armageddon or Environmental apocalypse caused by our dangerously warming climate.
                    I suspect they will both combine to create something beyond our scope to deal with.
                    When you are getting market spreads like this, panic doesn’t even seem to sum up the proper response. Remember, a spread above 30 points suggests elevated risk and a spread above 40 calls for ‘defensive measures’. Last week the spread was almost 50 fucking points…
                    Economic crash IMMINENT: Fears grow as markets hit high not seen since Black Tuesday
                    There is a growing sense of foreboding amongst economists who believe the market is poised to repeat what happened during the dotcom bubble and the Wall street crash.
                    Stock values have reached levels not seen since those two disasters and a correction would throw the world economy – currently seeing an ongoing boom period – into disarray.
                    Graham Hacche at the National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said:“In both cases, sharp market ¬declines followed these high readings.”
                    He went onto say the cyclically adjusted price-earning ratio (the Shiller CAPE ratio) has risen above 30 which shows “markets may have become increasingly vulnerable to shocks.”
                    …the question is no longer if, but when and where the economic crash will start and cascade from.
                    China could be the trigger…
                    Red debt rising
                    The news during the Chinese Communist Party Congress was supposed to be uniformly positive. But the Oct. 19 press conference of Zhou Xiaochuan, the governor of China’s central bank, was not. After admitting that the country’s high debt was high, he surprised everybody by adding that it was not so high as to cause a “Minsky Moment,” a sudden meltdown of asset prices. It was a fascinating insight into what worries China’s economic leaders and the tough choices they face.
                    …or it could be the failing Eurozone or Brexit that trigger it, or it could be the sudden realisation on Wall Street that Trump can’t get his tax cuts through.
                    Add in the sabre rattling over Chinese expansion into the Pacific, Venezuela imploding, North Korea going nuclear, Saudia Arabia launching war on Lebanon or a total collapse in Central Africa and any knock from Climate change could topple the global economy into free fall…
                    From Miami to Shanghai: 3C of warming will leave world cities below sea level
                    Hundreds of millions of urban dwellers around the world face their cities being inundated by rising seawaters if latest UN warnings that the world is on course for 3C of global warming come true, according to a Guardian data analysis.
                    What does a left wing Government do about it?
                    Anyway you want to look at it, the immediate future looks bleak, so what should a Left wing Government on these far away Shaky Isles do about it?
                    First of all, let’s appreciate the beauty and luck of our distance.
                    It’s near impossible for refugees to climb into boats and flee here successfully, we have a globally low debt to GDP ratio and we have enough fertile land to feed ourselves.
                    In short, the tyranny of our distance is going to end up being what saves us while the planet goes into meltdown.

                    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2017/11/daunting-antarctic-sea-ice-plummet-could-be-tipping-point.html
                    13 November 2017
                    Newshub

                    ‘Daunting’ Antarctic sea ice plummet could be tipping point

      • North 14.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 10:05 pm

        BM…….hoping like fuck and quacking like a duck. Meanwhile Key’s cruising……and don’t give a fuck. BM……looks very much like Russia’s ya’ only hope baby. Udachi !

  15. weka 15
    14 November 2017 at 11:07 am

    Julian Assange or Wikileaks’ long conversation with Trump Jnr,

    https://twitter.com/publicaddress/status/930188285007167488

    • weka 15.1
      14 November 2017 at 11:25 am

      ” Russell Brown‏ @publicaddress
      37m37 minutes ago

      Anyone who thinks Wikileaks is a “transparency organisation” after reading this is basically just a cult member.”

    • joe90 15.2
      14 November 2017 at 11:26 am

      It’s like someone’s working for someone.
      /

      Key figure in the Catalan separatist movement, Oriol Soler, spotted coming out of the Ecuadorian Embassy in London after 4-hour meeting with @JulianAssange on November 9, El País reports.https://t.co/M4o57nOOf9 pic.twitter.com/VUF8klqPvB— The Spain Report (@thespainreport) November 13, 2017

      https://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/11/12/actualidad/1510497199_316581.html&prev=search

      • weka 15.2.1
        14 November 2017 at 11:34 am

        “It’s like someone’s working for someone.”

        How do you mean?

        • Psycho Milt 15.2.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 11:52 am

          I’m assuming it means: Catalan separatists meet with Julian Assange => Julian Assange starts tweeting about the glorious revolution taking place in Catalonia => Russian media start giving extensive coverage to Assange’s tweets => Assange enthusiasts and Russian propaganda viewers the world over support independence for Catalonia. Did money change hands?

          It is pretty suspicious, but the world is so full of crackpots it doesn’t necessarily mean anybody’s paying anybody for it.

          • weka 15.2.1.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 12:05 pm

            True, and for Wikileaks it probably doesn’t matter if money is changing hands, they’ve lost their credibility and keep putting nails in that coffin.

          • Bill 15.2.1.1.2
            14 November 2017 at 12:23 pm

            Did you just summarily dismiss all and sundry who are supportive of the people of Catalonia being empowered to determine their own future?

            One Russian media outlet (Sputnik) based 11 stories around Assange tweets (10 on comments by Carles Puigdemont and 5 by Mariano Rajoy). Apparently that’s outrageous because Assange isn’t an expert on Catalonia (or some such)…unlike all the talking heads whatever other outlets use. Them’s experts!

            It’s utterly depressing, this enthusiasm to back the insinuation that anyone who doesn’t adhere to some “official” or “approved” script is “suspect”.

            It’s kinda fascist.

            BTW. Does the Scottish government’s support for Catalonian independence make them “Assange enthusiasts and/or Russian propaganda viewers” too? Maybe the SNP and Scottish Greens (plus a good proportion of Scottish Labour voters) are just ‘victims’ of Kremlin propaganda? I mean, Alex Salmond (ex First Minister of Scotland) is about to host a show on RT – gadzooks! (And yes. Pretty sure Assange tweeted on Scottish independence)

            • weka 15.2.1.1.2.1
              14 November 2017 at 12:32 pm

              Pretty sure the barb was for Assange supporters and Russian propaganda consumers, not people supporting Catalonian independence generally (could be wrong though).

              “It’s utterly depressing, this enthusiasm to back the insinuation that anyone who doesn’t adhere to some “official” or “approved” script is “suspect””

              Sorry, which is the approved script?

              • Bill …
                14 November 2017 at 12:47 pm

                You being serious here Weka?

                An abbreviated “official” or “approved” script in this instance runs along the following lines…

                Catalonia seeking independence = bad. Catalonia seeking independence = threat to “European democracy”. Reports backing Catalonian independence = Russian interference.

                Go and do some article searches on some main Liberal publications if you genuinely don’t understand that (eg – The Guardian, Washington Post, The Independent).

                And have a look at the various ministerial announcements that accompanied the vote in Catalan (but just mind and ignore what Sturgeon said, aye? 😉 )

                • weka …
                  14 November 2017 at 12:55 pm

                  Sure, I just wasn’t sure if you meant that Psycho Milt believes anyone not adhering to establishment lines was suspect.

            • Psycho Milt 15.2.1.1.2.2
              14 November 2017 at 12:41 pm

              Did you just summarily dismiss all and sundry who are supportive of the people of Catalonia being empowered to determine their own future?

              Er, no, given that I’m supportive of that myself. Not much sign of it in the current conflict, though.

        • joe90 15.2.1.2
          14 November 2017 at 11:54 am

          From Ukraine, Crimea, and brexit through to Trump and now Catalonia, we see Assange/wikileaks turning up like a bad penny.

          • weka 15.2.1.2.1
            14 November 2017 at 12:06 pm

            Wikileaks/Assange working for someone? Or just manipulating things for their own political ends?

            • Andre 15.2.1.2.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 12:41 pm

              For all practical purposes, is there a difference that matters? In either case, it still means treat everything emanating from Saint Julian of the Embassy with deep suspicion.

            • Psycho Milt 15.2.1.2.1.2
              14 November 2017 at 12:49 pm

              Looks to me more like the Russian government has found Wikileaks to be a useful way of releasing any embarrassing data they nick from the Americans and Assange isn’t fussy about where the data comes from. But the net effect is pretty much the same as if they had a business arrangement, so as Andre asks, does it matter? Either way, you have to treat the results with suspicion.

              • mauī …
                14 November 2017 at 1:19 pm

                Where is the Russian link to Wikileaks?

                • Psycho Milt …
                  14 November 2017 at 2:03 pm

                  There is no Russian link to Wikileaks – that’s the whole point of having an intelligence service. However, reasons to suspect the Russian government is using Wikileaks to release embarrassing data it steals from the Americans is outlined here.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    14 November 2017 at 2:56 pm

                    The whole “Russia Russia Russia” narrative is a totally overblown distraction.

                    Especially when it is clear that the US is unparalleled in its ability to steal, penetrate, impersonate the technology, data and systems of its foreign adversaries.

                    Further, its going to become very clear that the Democractic Party has very tight ties with Russian interests and operatives.

              • savenz …
                14 November 2017 at 1:23 pm

                At the end of the day, the massive heavy handed way the USA handled the leaks has actually helped their rivals the most and reduced power in the USA both internationally and within public opinion.

                If USA said sorry, and stopped their own illegal actions then it would have all gone away.

                The nation has been divided. If US officials had been less gungho and less looking like manufacturing charges and extriditions for political reasons , then Wikileaks would have been yesterday’s news.

                Like the Dotcom incident in NZ. Hard not to notice that one.

                The young and the free are all Internet users, they want freedom in that space. Anyone trying to curb that, has a battle that they probably won’t win.

                It’s 21st century Vietnam. You can’t force people to agree with things that are wrong. It just divides people.

            • joe90 15.2.1.2.1.3
              14 November 2017 at 1:03 pm

              To my mind Wikileaks/Assange began as an apolitical organisation concerned with human rights, using collateral damage/cablegate as disrupters of US foreign policy.

              I’d like to know why they’ve moved past that brief, involving themselves in the political processes of at least three countries.

              I reckon it’s most likely to be one of or a combination of an Assange vanity project, keeping Jules out of a Swedish/US federal prison or, for hire.

              • weka …
                14 November 2017 at 1:15 pm

                Yep. Or Assange’s personal politics.

                That’s a good description of the problem and what has happened.

              • Colonial Viper …
                14 November 2017 at 3:01 pm

                joe90 – perhaps you mean Wikileaks began as a non-partisan organisation.

                Disrupting US foreign policy, releasing US secrets and then having the Anglo-American empire target you with smears and illegal lawfare tactics was always going to be highly political.

                That’s the point of wikileaks.

                • KJT …
                  14 November 2017 at 3:35 pm

                  Disrupting US foreign policy.

                  I.E. Bombing the shit out of any country that refuses to allow US corporations, free reign. Or changing the leadership of any country that threatened the dollar as the reserve currency.

                  Was a good thing.

                • tracey …
                  14 November 2017 at 6:30 pm

                  Genuine question, what have they leaked about Russia and China over the years.

                • North …
                  14 November 2017 at 10:08 pm

                  Trumpingly good to have you back CV !

              • tracey …
                14 November 2017 at 6:24 pm

                I suspect your answer is ego rather than anything else. Assange has a big ego and he likes to bring it out every now and to remind us, and him, how important he is.

          • marty mars 15.2.1.2.2
            14 November 2017 at 12:45 pm

            Yep dirty paw prints all over the place – we’ve been fucken played. Truth out now and it is not good.

          • instauration 15.2.1.2.3
            14 November 2017 at 8:54 pm

            We also see the USA turning up for a bit of a meddle – again;

            https://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/275396.htm

    • Bill 15.3
      14 November 2017 at 12:39 pm

      The tweets themselves (not the interpretation the Atlantic couches them in) just read as someone punting for business and figuring out moves that might help his own position. And given that he’s essentially under house arrest, that’s fair enough, no?

      If you’re fate lay in the hands of someone who said you should be droned, wouldn’t you have something to say about that? And if there was the possibility another might open those doors, wouldn’t you be talking to them?

      And in whatever correspondence you had, and given the levels of stress occasioned by your situation, you really think you wouldn’t say some really fucking stupid things among it all?

      My impression of Assange (justified or otherwise) is that he’d be an unpleasant pain in the arse at a personal level. But fuck, this on-going knee-jerk reaction bullshit to anything associated with Assange or Wikileaks, from mostly Liberal quarters, is fucking diabolical.

      And the tiresome attempts to discredit any and all voices that might disagree with “official takes” on world affairs or specific situations by tying those voices in with Assange or Wikileaks, or some news story from a Russian media outlet, is deeply and seriously fucked up. Actually. It’s not so much that that’s fucked up (It’s to be expected). It’s the sheer numbers of people buying into it that’s the problem.

      • weka 15.3.1
        14 November 2017 at 12:52 pm

        “The tweets themselves (not the interpretation the Atlantic couches them in) just read as someone punting for business and figuring out moves that might help his own position. And given that he’s essentially under house arrest, that’s fair enough, no?”

        Probably shouldn’t be using Wikileaks to do that though.

        “If you’re fate lay in the hands of someone who said you should be droned, wouldn’t you have something to say about that? And if there was the possibility another might open those doors, wouldn’t you be talking to them?”

        Quite possibly, but I would also probably take care not to conflate a statement about droning with an actual potential threat, especially if I was running an organisation that needed to maintain a high degree of trustworthiness in the public internationally.

        • tracey 15.3.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 6:33 pm

          ” I was running an organisation that needed to maintain a high degree of trustworthiness in the public internationally. ”

          I think it stopped being about anything other than Assanges motivations after he went into the Embassy

    • Morrissey 15.4
      14 November 2017 at 4:20 pm

      I like the Trump family even less than you do, weka, and although I admire Julian Assange’s fearless journalism, I find his parlaying with these swine very odd indeed.

      However, you damage your credibility immediately by citing Russell Brown, who is one of the most easily gulled people in all of faux-liberalism. You might remember how Matthew Hooton made a fool of him and the likes of Craig Ranapia back in December 2013, after Nelson Mandela died….

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30122013/#comment-750859

      • weka 15.4.1
        14 November 2017 at 4:44 pm

        Funny, given that your own reputation on TS was undermined by the less than truthfulness of your transcripts 😉

        Everyone does stupid shit online at some point, and everyone does something that other people disagree with. Calling RB names means nothing to me except to say that you disapprove of him somehow.

        • Morrissey 15.4.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 4:57 pm

          given that your own reputation on TS was undermined by the less than truthfulness of your transcripts

          My transcripts were never less than truthful, despite your slimy smear. You, and a few others, objected to my emphasizing the lack of eloquence of some politicians by including every “errr” and “ahhh” and “ummm” they uttered, and you also seemed, or pretended to be, upset by my pointing out that when someone like Jim Mora or Chris Trotter said something unconscionably crass or nasty on air, there were often uncomfortable silences.

          But of course that issue is long done with. You and your small group of fellow-detractors lost. Deal with it.

          Everyone does stupid shit online at some point…

          They certainly do, as you did just now with that attempt to smear me with an old and discredited falsehood.

          Calling RB names means nothing to me except to say that you disapprove of him somehow.

          I did more than call him names, I demonstrated his insufferable combination of naïveté and sanctimoniousness.

          • weka 15.4.1.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 5:21 pm

            Really? I thought you’d gotten past this shit.

            On the accuracy of the transcripts,

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19072013/#comment-665294

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25072013/#comment-668293

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25072013/#comment-668899

            Not ums and errs but whole bits not transcribed literally (which is what a transcript is). They were impressions that by your own admission you acknowledged you wrote out mostly freehand as you listened.

            From the first link – I was concerned with capturing the essence of that pompous bullfrog Trotter, and didn’t record her murmurings verbatim.

            I say were, because I have a feeling you later increased the accuracy and started doing actual transcripts, but now that you’ve just denied the accuracy issue it makes me wonder if you can even tell.

            “But of course that issue is long done with.”

            Quite. 2013. Funnily enough, that’s the same year as whatever it is you are saying that Brown did.

            “They certainly do, as you did just now with that attempt to smear me with an old and discredited falsehood.”

            I’ve done stupid shit, but this isn’t one of those times as I’ve just demonstrated.

            “I did more than call him names, I demonstrated his insufferable combination of naïveté and sanctimoniousness.”

            I don’t see how. You linked to one of your impressions transcripts and expected people to read it and figure out what you were referring to. If RB did something wrong (I still have no idea what), then you should be able to (a) name it, and (b) back that claim up with some evidence. So far all you’ve done is said Hooton made a fool of him, and let us know that you believe Brown is x, y, z.

            So. You don’t like him and are using a current event to refer to something from years ago that demonstrates that you don’t like him. I don’t see the relevance myself.

            • Morrissey 15.4.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 5:45 pm

              Most of what you upbraid me with is unarguable. I accept your points.

              However, this one is unfair:

              You linked to one of your impressions transcripts and expected people to read it and figure out what you were referring to.

              No, what I did was: I took contributions of various people on the “Mandela” thread from Russell Brown’s blog of 30.12.13 and used them verbatim to form a fictional classroom situation. I imaginatively revivified a dreadful and embarrassing exercise in drippy “liberals” competing to share their feelings of sadness, then indulging a cynical and vicious manipulator. They were so drippy, in fact, that not one of them even noticed when the intruder (Matthew Hooton) smoothly compared Mandela to Reagan and Thatcher. That’s where this writer and another Standardista, Rhinocrates, came in….

              • weka …
                14 November 2017 at 5:49 pm

                Ok, thanks.

                Re today, I’m not going to read your fictional account. If you have something to say about Brown’s actions, by all means do and then cite to support it. Can you not see how a fictional account is still about *your opinions?

                People do enjoy your posts Morrissey, I just wish you would understand that in this setting there are pretty clear dividing lines between opinion and reporting of factual events.

              • Psycho Milt …
                14 November 2017 at 6:01 pm

                However, this one is unfair:

                I’d call it over-generous. I went and read the comment you linked to. In it, you take verbatim comments from Public Address and sprinkle them in among shit you just made up, which invites the reader to assume the shit you made up consists of verbatim comments. That’s pretty low.

                • Morrissey …
                  14 November 2017 at 7:17 pm

                  Our good friend Psycho Milt makes a few points, which I’ll address one by one….

                  …you take verbatim comments from Public Address and sprinkle them in among shit you just made up,

                  That’s pretty much it. But what you rather disparagingly call “shit you just made up” has a serious dramatic function. You are familiar with Monty Python’s Life of Brian, I presume, where the scriptwriters interpose a great deal of “made up shit” to counterpoint the words of the bloke delivering the Sermon on the Mount. Shakespeare did a lot of this sort of thing as well; I recommend you spend a few minutes studying a copy of Julius Caesar.

                  …which invites the reader to assume the shit you made up consists of verbatim comments.

                  Anyone with an IQ above room temperature could tell that the bits labeled “UPROAR FROM CLASS”, “MURMURING FROM CLASS,” “SEVERAL VOICES”, “OUTRAGE AND UPROAR”, etc. were made up, and distinct from the verbatim transcripts of Mike O’Connell, Hebe. Paul Campbell, Matthew Hooton and Russell Brown.

                  That’s pretty low.

                  That’s drama for you. It’s a pity for people like you that the playhouses can’t be shut down like in the good old days.

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    14 November 2017 at 10:03 pm

                    Anyone with an IQ above room temperature could tell that the bits labeled “UPROAR FROM CLASS”, “MURMURING FROM CLASS,” “SEVERAL VOICES”, “OUTRAGE AND UPROAR”, etc. were made up, and distinct from the verbatim transcripts of Mike O’Connell, Hebe. Paul Campbell, Matthew Hooton and Russell Brown.

                    They might well. Thing is, what you call “verbatim transcripts” include Russell Brown apparently making statements like

                    You will have other thoughts and memories and you are welcome to share them here. Please be respectful of each other. Michael, you were the first to put your hand up. Please stand up and share with the class how sad you are.

                    Having read the post in question, I’m aware that part of that “verbatim transcript” is verbatim and part of it is shit you made up. Other of these supposedly “verbatim transcripts” include similar insertions, which you offered to weka as evidence of Russell Brown’s foolishness, along with the claim that

                    My transcripts were never less than truthful, despite your slimy smear.

                    Pointing out that you put words in other people’s mouths and claim it’s evidence of their foolishness isn’t a “slimy smear,” it’s an “accurate description.”

          • McFlock 15.4.1.1.2
            14 November 2017 at 5:23 pm

            My transcripts were never less than truthful,

            No, morrissey, you outright invented things.

            repeatedly.

  16. halfcrown 16
    14 November 2017 at 11:14 am

    I see on the news that they are proposing a 140 to 190 Million development of the Auckland Waterfront for the America’s Cup. Goff is full of it and expects the taxpayer once again to finance this latest elitist toy.
    I would like to remind ALL the rightwingers, that we have had thirty years of user pays, being told to stand on our own two feet, no handouts with the Tories in the last nine years cutting services and benefits. Now is a good time for the right to practice what they are always preaching, pay for the fucking thing yourselves.
    I for one will be totally and completely pissed off if one dollar of taxpayers money goes towards this massive white elephant when there will be a struggle after nine years of neglect rectifying a large amount of child poverty and homelessness.
    If the elite wants to play with their boats good on them, but don’t expect the taxpayer to to pay for your toys
    .

    • Draco T Bastard 16.1
      14 November 2017 at 11:31 am

      Couple of hundred million would build quite a few houses even in Auckland.

    • alwyn 16.2
      14 November 2017 at 11:45 am

      Is the money Goff wants to throw at this farce instead of, or in addition to, the billion he wanted to spend on an Auckland stadium? What has happened to that by the way? I’ve been out of the country and haven’t heard anything about it recently.

      • savenz 16.2.1
        14 November 2017 at 1:14 pm

        @ alwyn – last I heard they were wasting ratepayer money on private consultants to do feasibility studies for the stadium. They are desperate to build one as a monument to their ego’s but know that there will be a massive public backlash… Ego vs public opinion (not sure which will win).

    • OnceWasTim 16.3
      14 November 2017 at 12:35 pm

      The right, the neo-liberal, NEVER practice what they preach.
      Doesn’t matter whether it’s Ruth Richardson Limited (liability); a Jenny Shipley alongside that brick of a man Burton; the entitled rich versus the undeserving poor; Jeeze Wayne’s or Mathew Hootons. It’s a foreign concept to them, devoid of humanity but all cost-accounted for. And if the accounts don’t work, why we’ll just re-invent the way we do them, and Bill’s your seedy Uncle (Steven, and there’s a new generation eagre to lead the self-entitled charge.
      Hopefully the gated-community locks are going to hold out

    • savenz 16.4
      14 November 2017 at 1:09 pm

      exactly halfcrown!

      We already paid for the last America’s cup!! What happened to all that infrastructure???? If the industry can afford millions in yachts then they should be able to crowd fund for the infrastructure that is apparently needed.

      Likewise if it will be an economic boom maybe the business who will benefit aka Skycity types (mostly owed offshore corporations) can get their wallets out. I know they are used to being showered with corporate welfare but under a Labour led government can somebody find the word NO?

      For everyone who lives in Auckland, it’s just more traffic, more rates and more out of control officials like Goff who will enjoy lording it over the place with all the rich and powerful that type of event attracts.

      Solve our transport first, cut down rates and increase public service levels like libraries that benefit people who live here NOT try to always be impressing rich people passing through.

    • tracey 16.5
      14 November 2017 at 6:40 pm

      Soon he will propose a name change to Goffland – where wet dreams come true

  17. Draco T Bastard 17
    14 November 2017 at 11:24 am

    Big Brother isn’t just watching: workplace surveillance can track your every move

    Today’s workplace surveillance software is a digital panopticon that began with email and phone monitoring but now includes keeping track of web-browsing patterns, text messages, screenshots, keystrokes, social media posts, private messaging apps like WhatsApp and even face-to-face interactions with co-workers.

    Another reason to move from the 2000+ year old ownership (Our present day ownership laws started back in Ancient Rome) model for a cooperative approach. The people doing the work and are most affected by this type of Big Brother approach are more likely to both decrease the amount of watching and use what’s gathered more ethically.

    • marty mars 17.1
      14 November 2017 at 12:52 pm

      Why do they want to know everything about everyone – haven’t they got better things to do.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 1:12 pm

        IMO, knowing everything about someone gives ways to control them. We see this in things like self-censorship.

        I’m presently looking for a job after finishing a degree. So, what effect is my anti-capitalist stance going to have on that and should I thus keep from mentioning it on my Facebook page so as to help me get a job?

        • marty mars 17.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 2:01 pm

          Good luck job hunting – tough situation for you too in finding good employment you are prepared to give your energy to.

        • Alan 17.1.1.2
          14 November 2017 at 4:16 pm

          As a recruiter I can confirm that the vast majority of employers do look at facebook etc. when considering candidates.

          • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1.2.1
            14 November 2017 at 4:20 pm

            So you recommend that I self-censor to please them?

            That would be that control that I was talking about.

          • KJT 17.1.1.2.2
            15 November 2017 at 4:32 am

            To normal people that is called “a creepy invasion of privacy”.

            But. Way too many employers now assume a right to know, about employees private lives, that should have never been their fucking business in the first place.

            As for the HR business………

      • cleangreen 17.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 1:43 pm

        Hi Marty,
        In the get rich quick club they believe gathering intellegence on everyone is “money” and thats the long & short of it.

        Sick isn’t it?

      • tracey 17.1.3
        14 November 2017 at 6:42 pm

        Cos they assume their employees are like them, corner cutters and piss takers

    • marty mars 18.1
      14 November 2017 at 12:50 pm

      Is that your opinion?

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 1:05 pm

        It’s a quote from Hippocrates. It’s what one would call a truism.

        As I’ve pointed out to you before – opinions are meaningless tripe unless they’re backed by facts, logic and, well, science.

        • marty mars 18.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 1:09 pm

          Where are the facts, logic and science behind your opinion on this one. I see nothing… just a quote.

        • SpaceMonkey 18.1.1.2
          14 November 2017 at 3:12 pm

          If they’re backed by facts, logic and science, they cease to be an opinion.

        • OnceWasTim 18.1.1.3
          14 November 2017 at 7:33 pm

          Just a question DtB …. Where do experieces and what one might call ‘common’ sense fit into it.
          I’m all for science based on facts and logic (well…science), but often the heuristics used in a triage situation when decisions can be required quickly can have big experiential and common sense components. In my case, if they’d relied purely on what the science said at the time – I’d be dead

          • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.3.1
            14 November 2017 at 9:28 pm

            Common Sense Is Neither Common nor Sense

            Common sense, defined as “sound judgment derived from experience rather than study,” is one of the most revered qualities in America. It evokes images of early and simpler times in which industrious men and women built our country into what it is today. People with common sense are seen as reasonable, down to earth, reliable, and practical.

            But here’s the catch. Common sense is neither common nor sense. There’s not a whole of sound judgment going on these days (though whether it is worse than in the past, I can’t be sure), so it’s not common. If common sense was common, then most people wouldn’t make the kinds of decisions they do every day. People wouldn’t buy stuff they can’t afford. They wouldn’t smoke cigarettes or eat junk food. They wouldn’t gamble. And if you want to get really specific and timely, politicians wouldn’t be tweeting pictures of their private parts to strangers. In other words, people wouldn’t do the multitude of things that are clearly not good for them.

            And common sense isn’t real sense, if we define sense as being sound judgment, because relying on experience alone doesn’t usually offer enough information to draw reliable conclusions. Heck, I think common sense is a contradiction in terms. Real sense can rarely be derived from experience alone because most people’s experiences are limited.

            In my case, if they’d relied purely on what the science said at the time – I’d be dead

            Sometimes simply doing shit can work but it’s a fluke and not something that can be relied upon.

            • OnceWasTim 18.1.1.3.1.1
              15 November 2017 at 7:08 am

              I agree – common sense is not common, – the wrong term to use. I’m a big fan of science (as you describe it above).
              I’m not a big fan of the idea that there can’t be exceptions to every rule.
              For many, it was evident that there was climate change occurring a long time ago. The science subsequently proved it.
              I don’t agree that “simply doing shit” can work but its always a ‘fluke’.
              In the case I mentioned (mine), I understand the science now recognises the exceptions to the rule.

              By the way – science isn’t dogma either. It requires an open mind ready to consider possibilities, and to be able to contest previously held scientific views and theories

              • Draco T Bastard …
                15 November 2017 at 9:12 am

                I don’t agree that “simply doing shit” can work but its always a ‘fluke’.

                If someone does something without knowing what they’re doing and it works then it’s a fluke.

                Now, that doesn’t actually mean that what they do isn’t a result of the training and experience that they have. What it means is that it hasn’t been researched and they’re running on intuition.

                Good training and education will bring about better intuition but it’s still going to be a fluke because they don’t know. It could, as a matter of fact, go the other way. That doesn’t mean that it’s not worth trying if there’s no other options.

                In the case I mentioned (mine), I understand the science now recognises the exceptions to the rule.

                There are no exceptions to the rule – merely misunderstood, misapplied and unknown rules.

      • Robert Guyton 18.1.2
        14 November 2017 at 1:57 pm

        It’s the opinion of Hippocrates.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.2.1
          14 November 2017 at 2:25 pm

          It’s a fairly obvious restatement of the definition of the word “opinion”. Words do have meanings, after all.

  19. greywarshark 19
    14 November 2017 at 1:09 pm

    Angel investors in NZ.
    Start up businesses investment going strong. Always room for more though.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/businessnews/audio/2018621431/nz-s-arch-angel-of-the-year-in-it-for-more-than-money

    Note: Sweeeet.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/343774/dunedin-chocolate-crowdfund-reaches-target
    A PledgeMe project for the public to buy out the boutique chocolatier Ocho was launched yesterday morning, and raised more than $1 million by the end of the day.

    The campaign was born out of the closure of the city’s Cadbury factory and an unsuccessful attempt by the community to buy it.

    Pledges have just reached $1.75m, very close to the $1.8m threshold for the project.

    • syclingmad 19.1
      14 November 2017 at 1:19 pm

      So glad you chose to highlight this – great example of how capital can be used to support a community at large and the investors get both a return (TBD) and the warm fuzzies from knowing that the collective knowledge of the workers is not lost forever.

      Kudos to the people who stood up and worked behind the scenes to organise this.

  20. Puckish Rogue 20
    14 November 2017 at 1:20 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98858474/labour-says-no-to-allowing-both-parents-take-paid-parental-leave-at-the-same-time

    The amendment did not extend the cost of Labour’s policy and it did not extend the total amount of time parents had available to them.

    Adams said she could see no real reason why Labour would be opposed to giving new families greater flexibility.

    “It seems to me they’re embarrassed that they rushed this bill and there was no need to do it. This has been their policy for a long time and they still haven’t properly turned their mind to some of the important issues, like how paid parental leave works and how it can be made more flexible.”

    C’mon Labour do the right thing by families 🙂

    • weka 20.1
      14 November 2017 at 1:35 pm

      Such a change could be detrimental to the baby, says Labour; If both parents were off at the same time, that would be a shortened total time spent on leave with that child, said Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway.

      …

      Lees Galloway said he was not opposed to looking at changes to flexibility rules further down the track, however. But the Government had not seen the amendment National was preparing to put forward.

      Sounds like the ball is in National’s court. Plus, didn’t they oppose extending PPL last year?

      • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 1:40 pm

        Well now its Labours turn to have the blowtorch applied but its not a bad idea is it, to have both parents off at the same time

        • weka 20.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 1:45 pm

          I need to see what National are actually proposing in terms of the law before I could have an opinion. And then opinions from people that are affected and organisations that work in that area.

          Yes, that’s right, I don’t trust National. The idea could be a good one, but we have no way of telling because National are dicks.

          • Grey Area 20.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2017 at 2:40 pm

            The idea could be a good one, but we have no way of telling because National are dicks.

            Classic! 😀 And so true. I looked at this story and thought “that may have some merit” and then reminded myself it was Adams saying it.

            • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2017 at 3:24 pm

              So how would you describe Labour about their TPPA dealins, I myself would call them pragmatic

              • tracey …
                14 November 2017 at 6:47 pm

                I would call it misleading their voters and parkers statement allowing the view to pervade that Labour negotiated the Oz ISDS change as Keyesque and as appaling as when Nats behaved this way.

                Your serve

              • weka …
                14 November 2017 at 6:47 pm

                this week it looks to me like Labour are being hoisted on their own neoliberal petard. Of course they’re pragmatic as well. Doesn’t mean they’re being pragmatic about the right things.

        • Jilly 20.1.1.2
          14 November 2017 at 3:05 pm

          I feel like this is a real cynical move coming from the party who vetoed extending paid parental leave for financial reasons.

          However, I think this should be considered. I am assuming labour are coming from the perspective that creating the most time before bub has to go into childcare has the most benefit. But there are plenty of situations where I think time together as a whole family trumps that. After my first baby I had PND and if my husband been able to take a chunk OK time off at that time it would have made the world of difference I think. Couples who have twins or very sick babies would also benefit.

          I hope labour will consider this.

        • Muttonbird 20.1.1.3
          14 November 2017 at 6:26 pm

          Most National voters prefer to go back to work straight away and put the baby in childcare for 10 hours a day anyway.

          They lack empathy.

    • cleangreen 20.2
      14 November 2017 at 1:52 pm

      Puckish Rogue,

      Don’t you feel strange now as a national party spinner now seeing national comming out with real “social progams” like giving both parents maternity extended leave now that it was national (yourparty) that railed hard agaist giving the ecxtended leavejust to one parent?

      I think this is not real but just a ploy by English to put a wedge between the coalition now eh?

      Has National Costed this?

      As they are already demading labour cost everyting they do right?

      • Puckish Rogue 20.2.1
        14 November 2017 at 4:10 pm

        “I think this is not real but just a ploy by English to put a wedge between the coalition now eh?”

        Possibly

        “Has National Costed this?”

        Probably not

        “As they are already demading labour cost everyting they do right?”

        The joys of being in opposition is that you don’t actually have to cost anything 🙂

        • McFlock 20.2.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 4:40 pm

          So, basically, you’re bunging a smiley face on the thought that a party of liars and hypocrites when they were in government is no longer required to attain even that shonky level.

        • weka 20.2.1.2
          14 November 2017 at 4:48 pm

          The Greens costed things in Opposition. And they even had this idea to have a part of Treasury available to all parties to have their policies costed.

          https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/fairer-society/policy-costings-unit

          Pretty useless having good ideas if you don’t know how to implement them and think someone else should take them on board and do your mahi for you.

          • weka 20.2.1.2.1
            14 November 2017 at 4:49 pm

            New Zealanders deserve more transparency from their politicians so they can better engage in the political system. Having party policies independently costed will help to cut through the noise of political party promises and deliver New Zealanders unbiased information.

            And they costed it.

    • tracey 20.3
      14 November 2017 at 6:45 pm

      Amy is accusing Labour of maybe doing something her party resisted until election time? For all we know their policy was like no new taxes… only meant to win votes not be implemented.

      This newfound social conscience of Nats needs to be pounced upon with some new legislation for them to support.

  21. greywarshark 21
    14 November 2017 at 1:22 pm

    Recent piece from Chris Trotter reviewing TPP and how did we go?
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/11/a-very-lucky-escape.html

    I thought this was good.
    As the leader of a small trading nation, New Zealand’s prime minister simply cannot affect a take-it-or-leave-it attitude to something as big as the TPP. The inescapable truth confronting Ardern (as it has every one of her predecessors) is that this country’s status as a first-world nation is inescapably contingent upon earning sufficient overseas currency to import the sort of lifestyle to which most Kiwis believe themselves entitled.

    Bluntly: faced with the choice of announcing whether her government is “in” or “out” of a major trade agreement; no New Zealand prime minister can say “out” with impunity.

    • cleangreen 21.1
      14 November 2017 at 2:03 pm

      Greywarshark;

      Not impressed as it must have been his bad day I assume.

      Chris does not really have a strong will to fight for our democracy as many others do sorry.

      • greywarshark 21.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 2:16 pm

        cleangreen
        He is a political journalist with a left approach, not an avowed activist, and he tries to view the facts of the situation as they lie, not as you or others would like them to be. Reading him you can assess how likely it would be to get your favourite policy through, and hope he is wrong if it seem impossible. Or you might think of some other way to manage it.

    • Psycho Milt 22.1
      14 November 2017 at 2:12 pm

      Mind-boggling. That’s National for you though – “Fuck off, if we give one wrongful-imprisonment victim inflation-adjusted compensation, next thing they’ll all want it!”

      • Grey Area 22.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 2:33 pm

        It sure is head-shaking stuff. Whenever you think they couldn’t be bigger dicks, they keep surpassing themselves.

    • adam 22.2
      14 November 2017 at 2:25 pm

      Well it was 9 years of a Tory government McFlock – so we should find out in say…. 10 years.

      Edit: Was that little thing about not giving people access to legal aid so…

    • Rosemary McDonald 22.3
      14 November 2017 at 4:54 pm

      Hah! I just read idiot savant’s response to that from the other day…http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/11/opening-floodgates.html

      ….bloody brilliant.

      • repateet 22.3.1
        14 November 2017 at 5:18 pm

        Amy Adams is now called National’s “justice” spokeswoman.

        She used to be their Minister of “Justice.”

        She clearly wouldn’t know justice if it turned up and bit her on the arse.

    • AB 22.4
      14 November 2017 at 11:14 pm

      The open floodgates will let through huge numbers of people who will knowingly allow themselves to be bullied and confused into confessing to things they didn’t do, spend 20 years in prison and then claim the money!
      Don’t you see McFlock don’t you? It’ll be a flood, a veritable torrent!
      Either that – or you shouldn’t expect liars to understand metaphors.

  23. adam 23
    14 November 2017 at 2:39 pm

    Bloody nora, the size of some of the hail falling in Auckland at the moment – it as big as a 50 cent piece, some pieces bigger. It’s also peeling the paint off the neighbours cars.

    Put my arm out in it, very sore.

  24. Morrissey 24
    14 November 2017 at 4:45 pm

    That unnamed “Australian newspaper” is a Murdoch rag.
    And those “unnamed sources” are no doubt as scurrilous.

    I note that Radio New Zealand, among other outlets, has been diligently recycling, without any hint of demur, the Double Dipper’s mad claims about New Zealand becoming a “target for people smugglers.”

    An Australian newspaper has reported unnamed sources saying the government there has turned back four boats of asylum seekers that were heading to New Zealand.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/343787/pm-s-stance-on-manus-island-could-backfire-national

    The Murdoch rag cited as merely “an Australian newspaper” is the hideous Courier-Mail of Brisbane, one of the Dirty Digger’s notorious stable of racist, war-mongering, sex-obsessed but prurient, thoroughly disreputable scandal sheets. It is to RNZ’s discredit that it failed to point this out today.

    • Anne 24.1
      14 November 2017 at 5:52 pm

      From the link:

      Acting Prime Minister Kelvin Davis said he did not know the source of the story, but it was “quite possible” it could be the Australian government pushing back over Manus Island.

      My immediate reaction when I heard the item on the car radio. In fact its such a coincidence that the story should appear at this moment in time, one has to conclude that is precisely what it is.

  25. mary_a 25
    14 November 2017 at 5:25 pm

    Oh dear Natz really does need to get over itself. Still sounding very bitter and twisted over election result. Very petulant statements from Finlayson and Collins! Natz termites all slithering out of the woodwork now. Had it too good for too long. Sore losers unable to accept the fact the present coalition government was preferred!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11942559

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11943985

    • Muttonbird 25.1
      14 November 2017 at 6:32 pm

      It’s not a good look. They’re acting like spoiled brats in trying to push the idea that Peters is untrustworthy as a means of running interference against his court proceedings.

      They must think people are stupid and have very short memories because most Kiwis know that the Nats ran the Super-leak hit job against Peters. What’s that if it’s not untrustworthy!

    • marty mars 25.2
      14 November 2017 at 6:59 pm

      Very bitter and twisted alright – they can’t get over their utter uselessness in failing. They want to blame anyone except themselves – both those links show callous lies and a complete spit in the face for voters. I hope they never get in again.

  26. Ed 26
    14 November 2017 at 5:26 pm

    Glad RNZ and Guyon Espiner gave a racist thug like Ian such a platform to air his views on Checkpoint. Anyone will do if it smears Jacinda and the government, eh Guyon?

    • Ed 26.1
      14 November 2017 at 5:35 pm

      Followed by a pitbull attack on Carmel Sepuloni.
      Guyon – working for the Tories.

      • cleangreen 26.1.1
        14 November 2017 at 7:45 pm

        Ed that was a shocking display of naked arrogance from espiner that i was heklling at jhim on TV and got bloody so mad that my blood pressure went over the top[.

        I will ask the minister of broadcvasting to sack the prick as he has no place in this public broadcasting platfom that is trying to calm the people and be a kinder, gentler way of treating each other.

        Espiner was going and going repeatedly at her it was a shocking display of arrogance he showed toward a sitting M.P.

        Get rid of him, and take his mate Suzie Ferguson with him please as she is also very agressive at times though maybe not as bad as Espiiner is.

        Kim Hill is the very best NZ has and should be uplifted to a Radio NZ Management position to train these half backed Journo’s to act civily and treat everyone with dignity and respect.

        • Ed 26.1.1.1
          14 November 2017 at 9:33 pm

          I expect the billionaire press to be biased but not RNZ.
          Espiner is a Tory hack and should sell his soul to Murdoch or Reinhart or another rich corporate bludger.

          • cleangreen 26.1.1.1.1
            15 November 2017 at 6:15 am

            Yep get shod of this despot asap would be good as Espiner is a liability to us all now.

            I hate these turncoats like Espiner they are just after money so dont belong in public broadcasting.

  27. Morrissey 27
    14 November 2017 at 7:45 pm

    Bob Geldof has, correctly, described Aung San Suu Kyi
    as a “handmaiden to genocide and accomplice to murder”.

    Bob Geldof has said he will return his Freedom of the City of Dublin in protest against the Myanmar leader Aung San Suu Kyi, who also holds the award. Mr Geldof said “her association with our city shames us all”. Ms Suu Kyi has faced heavy criticism over her failure to address allegations of ethnic cleansing against Myanmar’s Rohingya Muslims. More than half a million Rohingya have fled to Bangladesh following recent violence.

    Mr Geldof, the musician and founder of Band Aid, said in a statement: “Her association with our city shames us all and we should have no truck with it, even by default. We honoured her, now she appals and shames us.”

    He is handing back the award at City Hall in the Irish capital on Monday morning.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41964299

    HOWEVER: who’s this consorting with another handmaiden to genocide and accomplice to murder?…..

    http://www.channel4.com/media/images/Channel4/c4-news/2013/April/11/geldof_thatcher_g_w.jpg

    ….and who’s this consorting with another bloody monster?

    http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Bill+Clinton+Bob+Geldof+BILD+OSGAR+Award+1eyJ3BAYqkbl.jpg

  28. Instauration 28
    14 November 2017 at 8:57 pm

    We also see the USA turning up for a bit of a meddle – again:

    https://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/275396.htm

  29. cleangreen 29
    14 November 2017 at 9:35 pm

    I picked up an anomolly in labour’s cheif negociator today in Parliament during Q+A which a National MP asked David Parker about his claim that he had got changes made to the ISDS wording.

    The minister asked if Parker stuck by his words and then said how come when he was involved in April 2016 over the TPPA settling on wording of that ISDS it was actactly the same wording as parker had agreedto, Parker responded by claiming that “his text related to a different agreement to a new free trade agreement called the CPTPP now?????

    So is parker saying that te ISDS he agreed to was different from the one in the TPPA that was signed off by nationalm April 2016????

    Can anyone clarify this please as someone is playing games here.

    Many reports had been formerly comming out including Jane kelsey’s reviews saying the ISDS was the exact wording in both the TPP 11 and the CPTPP, so I am lost here.

    maybe Labour knows something we dont yet???

    I will find the hansard report wording on this after this day and post it later tomorrow.

    • Colonial Viper 29.1
      14 November 2017 at 9:50 pm

      Sounds to me like Parker is playing lawyerly word games. The National MP asked about the wording being the same, and Parker essentially replied – the wording you are referring to was in the TPP whereas the CPTPP is a different agreement altogether.

      Basically just smartarse evasive BS.

      • KJT 29.1.1
        15 November 2017 at 4:42 am

        Not a good start. Following National into lying their arse off. Already.

      • cleangreen 29.1.2
        15 November 2017 at 6:20 am

        Thanks CV, yes I heard this exactly also.

        “Doublespeak” is common place on both sides even though Jacinda is the ‘champion of ‘honesty’ and ‘truth’.

        Jacinda needs to do some house cleaning soon?

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.