Open mike 15/06/2022

161 comments on “Open mike 15/06/2022 ”

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1. RedLogix 1

   15 June 2022 at 6:57 am

   Latest Caspian Report. The comment thread is useful too:
   • Jenny how to get there 1.1

     15 June 2022 at 7:24 am

     You can't have endless growth on a finite planet.

     Chinese President expands country’s military powers to defend interests abroad

     Eryk Bagshawme 21:07, Jun 14 2022

     “For the first time in a while, China’s state-owned enterprises, provincial and local governments, private companies, and citizens will be forced to compete for a piece of a pie that is no longer growing,”

     [Craig Singleton, former US diplomat and a senior China fellow at the hawkish Washington think-tank the Foundation for Defence of Democracies]
     • RedLogix 1.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 7:48 am

       You can't have endless growth on a finite planet.

       While that is a great soundbite – it assumes two things. One is that human growth can be accurately modelled as bacteria in a petrie dish. Secondly it assumes our evolution will forever be constrained to just this one planet.

       Over the long run of time, human development has seen us discover and exploit a series of new and previously unanticipated forms of resource. After millions of years of hunter-gatherer existence which never saw the total number of humans on the whole planet rise above 10m – suddenly we had agriculture that exploited the irrigation, fertilisation and transport capacity of major river basins. If it had the security benefit of being surrounded by desert – then like Egypt the resulting civilisation could sustain itself for thousands of years at a wholly new level.

       Then in relatively quick succession the excess capacity released by agriculture allowed us to harness new energy sources – wind, coal, oil and gas. None of which were suspected before they became manifest – and allowed us to expand to almost 10b humans. And astonishingly enough in this past few decades only turn into an almost new species with a very stable – even declining – population growth rate. This shift could not have been imagined even so little as a century ago. Malthus would be astonished and dismayed at how badly his predictions have turned out.

       In the interests of balance I do not want to paint an overly rosy picture here. History gives us no comfort, progress is not linear and locally it often reverses catastrophically. We are more than capable, in our collective distress and confusion, of self-inflicting terrible wounds upon ourselves

       But if there is one crucial theme that motivates me to write here more than anything else it is this idea – that humanity is on the cusp of a unified, global adulthood that will see us shift toward new coherent purposes and motivations. In this sense I can agree with your quote above – the growth and turbulent period of childhood and adolescence could not last forever. Nor will we bound to our planetary mother indefinitely – we will leave home.
       • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 8:42 am

         It's not a great soundbite. It's blunt and easily dismissed. It shouldn't be used by anyone who really intends to find solutions to the problems we are beset by here on planet earth, imo.

         This however, is a great soundbite:

         "unified, global adulthood that will see us shift toward new coherent purposes and motivations."

         It's the kind of thing I hear from the yoga-mums, crystal-healers, GoddessWarriorwomen and shamanic-praticioners, many of whom set up tents outside of Parliament recently and plied their trade.

         How curious that you've arrived at the same place they have, RedLogix 🙂
         • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 8:56 am

           Good. I like it when – despite our outwardly different lives and views – we discover that nonetheless we share a lot more common humanity than not.
           • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 8:59 am

             

             From a technical point of view, I’ve always baulked at the idea of a “finite” planet. I understand the sentiment and recognise that some resources are finite (those that can’t be restored) but think of the materials that rain down upon us from space; sunlight being the primary resource, but certainly not the only one. It seemed to me that the planet is in fact, increasing in substance.
             • RedLogix …

               15 June 2022 at 9:12 am

               There was once a dreadfully wicked hobgoblin. One day he had a simply marvelous idea. He was going to make a looking glass that would reflect everything that was good and beautiful in such a way that it would look dreadful or at least not very important. When you looked in it, you would not be able to see any of the good or the beautiful in yourself or in the world. Instead, this looking glass would reflect everything that was bad or ugly and make it look very important. The most beautiful landscapes would look like heaps of garbage, and the best people would look repulsive or would seem stupid. People's faces would be so changed that they could not be recognized, and if there was anything that a person was ashamed of or wanted to hide, you could be sure that this would be just the thing that the looking glass emphasized.

               The hobgoblin set about making this looking glass, and when he was finished, he was delighted with what he had done. Anyone who looked into it could only see the bad and the ugly, and all that was good and beautiful in the world was distorted beyond recognition. One day the hobgoblin's assistants decided to carry the looking glass up to the heavens so that even the angels would look into it and see themselves as ugly and stupid.

               They hoped that perhaps even God himself would look into it! But, as they reached the heavens, a great invisible force stopped them and they dropped the dreadful looking glass. And as it fell, it broke into millions of pieces.

               And now came the greatest misfortune of all. Each of the pieces was hardly as large as a grain of sand, and they flew about all over the world. If anyone got a bit of glass in his eye there it stayed, and then he would see everything as ugly or distressing. Everything good would look stupid. For every tiny splinter of the glass possessed the same power that the whole glass had!

               Some people got a splinter in their hearts, and that was dreadful, too, for then their hearts turned into lumps of ice and could no longer feel love. The hobgoblin watched all this and he laughed until his sides ached. ….

               —from The Snow Queen, Hans Christian Andersen

               More truth in these harsh old fables than we like to think.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 15 June 2022 at 10:24 am

                 Sounds like the story of the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden.

                 In Anderson's story the hobgoblin (“dreadfully wicked” is redundant, surely 🙂 at least, is happy. I wonder if he crafted the mirror itself to look beautiful? I suspect he will have, if he was intending that people would look into it.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   15 June 2022 at 11:11 am

                   In Anderson's story the hobgoblin (“dreadfully wicked” is redundant,

                   For plain English aficionados perhaps. But repetition and tautology are the stuff of fairy tales, the stimulation of the imagination and the passing on of possibly universal truths vanity, being happy with what we are etc.

                   I have a theory that not enough reading to people is being done, not enough fiction reading with a wide use of language. When you look at the words that trip up people (grown ups) this is evident. Hobgoblins and the hierarchy of goodies and baddies such as elves, goblins, fairies, pixies etc and the ability to use them today to describe behaviour.

                   Michael Wood, in his powerful speech about the motivations behind the occupiers of Parliament grounds, was stark proof of this. The reactions by others showing the depth of misunderstanding of what should be a common language and the inability to work through descriptive language with all its mechanisms, ie figures of speech had an impact on me

                   While we need to 'tell stories' ie frame ideas so they are easily understandable as opposed to chunks of scientific knowledge we might be wise to investigate whether nowadays people understand stories as a way of imparting ideas. Telling stories to adults as a way of passing on ideas relies on those adults having a background knowledge of stories and their function.

                   Little bit away from the Chinese link.

                   The phrase is better expressed, in my view, 'you cannot have endless growth' or 'you should not have endless growth' or we don't need endless growth or moving to the aspirational how do we stop endless growth for growths sake?

                   To explain that you have to marshall all those early stories, Shakespearean tales, truths from other countries (eg about giving people things as opposed to teaching people things), Biblical allusions, whakatauki eg Whatungarongaro te tangata, toitū te whenua. The people fade from view but the land remains. Today, this sacred land remains, and bears witness to a hope that is endemic to the human spirit…Also important are things such as work/life balance etc.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:26 pm

                     I agree with and enjoyed, all that you wrote there, Shanreagh. I wonder if you are a fan of storyteller Martin Shaw, or any others of his ilk – people who value highly, storytelling, recounting myths and the purpose of legend in our lives.
               • Kiwijoker …

                 15 June 2022 at 4:04 pm

                 Newstalk ZB. Obviously got a heavy dose of those splinters.
             • RedLogix …

               15 June 2022 at 9:14 am

               It seemed to me that the planet is in fact, increasing in substance.

               Absolutely. I am a great fan of mysteries.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 15 June 2022 at 10:18 am

                 Tangibly, dust from space, drawn here by our gravitational field, settles upon us at a surprising rate!
                 • lprent …

                   15 June 2022 at 11:16 am

                   Accretion certainly.

                   However there is a lot of atmosphric skimming as gases escape the gravitational pull in a semi-random walk.

                   The atmosphere gets replaced from nuclear heating from the earths core releasing bound gases.

                   The question is where the balance lies. But ultimately it is likely to be like Mars.

                   But it will take some time.
                 • Poission …

                   15 June 2022 at 11:31 am

                   40kt of meteorite and interstellar dust PA.

                   https://www.nature.com/articles/380323a0
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:10 pm

                     So it's not dandruff!

                     I knew it!
                   • Poission …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:23 pm

                     Discovered in Canterbury no less.
                   • pat …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:27 pm

                     theres always a but…

                     "Bearing in mind that much of the stuff we send into space falls back down again, only a few hundred tonnes of spacecraft have actually escaped Earth’s gravity since the first space programmes began.

                     This is tiny compared with the quantity of hydrogen and other gases that escape continuously into space from the upper atmosphere. This has been estimated at between ESA says 90 t per day 30,000 and 65,000 tonnes per year.

                     Earth also gains about 40,000 tonnes per year in the form of meteorites and space dust. Overall, though, the planet gets slightly lighter each year. But this only amounts to around a trillionth of a per cent, as Earth is very, very heavy at 5.97 × 1024 kilograms."

                     Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24232301-200-has-all-the-hardware-sent-into-space-affected-earths-gravity/#ixzz7WEebt6XC
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:28 pm

                     What, all of it, Poission?
                   • Poission …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:39 pm

                     all of it

                     Just the measurements from upward radar at UC.
                   • Poission …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:42 pm

                     theres always a but…

                     Dissipation is part of the second law of TD,
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 12:45 pm

                     Nitrogen, pat, seems to be everywhere. Some of it is created by lightening, some by industry. The bulk of it though, seems to have arrived here from afar. Plants in my garden capture and sequester nitrogen in the form of nitrate, I believe, making it available for other plants to uptake. Birds eat those plants and their guano becomes the vehicle for further transfer of nitrogen in some form or other. Ammonia is in there somewhere. Urine from cows fed on urea-forced grass is high in nitrate content and the animal excretes it as fast as it can to avoid being poisoned. The carrying liquid filters down through the soil, into the groundwater and further out into the creeks and rivers. Some of it though, is converted by bacteria into N2O, a potent greenhouse gas. Industry devised a biocide to render inert the bacteria responsible for this conversion, but it proved unpalatable to the market so the production of N2O on New Zealand dairy farms continues unabated.

                     These observations may not be the case, in fact. Never the less, they paint a picture of complexity and wonder, at least to me 🙂
       • theotherpat 1.1.1.2

         15 June 2022 at 10:27 am

         i think you are correct….however it will first take a catastrophe of some magnitude to happen to bring it all about……
       • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.3

         15 June 2022 at 10:42 am

         "Nor will we bound to our planetary mother indefinitely – we will leave home."

         Leaving behind a smouldering mess?

         Striking out for some an unspoiled planet that we can … well, you know.

         Getting off the planet in a clever device doesn't make us "grown-ups". Just look at those who are leading the way on this (Mr Musk et al.)

         Grown-ups?

         Hobgoblin help us!
         • In Vino 1.1.1.3.1

           15 June 2022 at 10:12 pm

           To my mind, anyone who believes that we ever will migrate to another planet is a naive young fool who has not seriously faced our failings. Writing science fiction is one thing: making space ships to travel such distances is another.

           Especially when people are too 'optimistic' to face the 6th great extinction which is galloping towards us like the horses of the Apocolypse.

           Fix this planet now, or face extinction.

           (I like the idea of a hobgoblin, though..)
       • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.4

         15 June 2022 at 1:44 pm

         RedLogix

         15 June 2022 at 7:48 am

         You can't have endless growth on a finite planet.

         While that is a great soundbite – it assumes two things. One is that human growth can be accurately modelled as bacteria in a petrie dish. Secondly it assumes our evolution will forever be constrained to just this one planet.

         Hi Red I think we need to sort out some terms. When we talk about 'human growth'. what do we mean by this term 'growth'?
         I kind'a feel here Red, (and forgive me if I am wrong), but that you, (not I), have somewhat conflated human population growth with economic growth.

         People are not bacteria, as the average standard of living in a society goes up, as personal liberty and opportunities become more available, as more of your offspring are likely to survive, people tend to prefer smaller families, https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521

         This is the opposite of what happens to mindless bacteria in a petri dish. Without any faculty for personal choice, – provided with the resources to reproduce, bacteria reproduce exponentially, until they totally exhaust all the resources in the petri dish till they perish.

         Ignoring people's personal choice and agency, and comparing humanity to bacteria in a petri dish is where the Malthusian nightmare of runaway overpopulation falls apart.

         Human population and wealth are linked, but not directly.

         However the general trend is that human population growth and average personal wealth are inversely proportional.

         But average personal wealth is not what is referred to by economists when they are talking about 'Growth'.

         Measures of Economic Growth & Living Standards – GDP, GDP/Capita, GNI, Green GDP

         ….let us consider different measures of economic growth….

         [@ 4:43 minutes]

         …..GDP just looks at output, the quantity of output. The quality of output has been ignored completely. ie The negative examples, of production are ignored completely and are not going to be included in our figure. Things like the cost of air pollution, resource depletion, environmental degradation, deforestation, loss of bio-diversity, desertification, All these negative examples are not going to be included at all……

         ….income inequality, nothing is mentioned in GDP. Nothing about the distribution of income at all…

         ….we can also argue that there are many other quality of life aspects that would increase living standards that GDP does not take into account. For example health outcomes. The level of healthcare, the level of education in society the level of freedom, of gender equality, the level of democracy. All these factors, clearly will increase living standards but are not taken into account.
     • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2

       15 June 2022 at 8:04 am

       Oops! Forgot to include the link:

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/300613347/chinese-president-expands-countrys-military-powers-to-defend-interests-abroad
       • RedLogix 1.1.2.1

         15 June 2022 at 8:08 am

         Looks like a perfect, albeit ancient, prescription of empire building. How very unimaginative of Xi.
         • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 9:49 am

           Unimaginative? Certainly Ancient? Hardly.

           Growth economies demand expansion

           Imperialism is being practiced all around the globe by the rival economic blocs. Where these rival economies can't expand their influence by soft power, they resort to hard power. Behind the velvet glove is the iron fist.

           Where growth economies butt up against political borders they breach them, invasion and war is the result. When growth economies butt up against the carrying capacity of the planet, they breach those as well. Environmental destruction and climate collapse is the result.

           Is war and climate collapse inevitable then?

           No. But it will require a complete paradigm change.

           Social Justice is climate justice.
           • Populuxe1 1.1.2.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 4:33 pm

             It's very ancient. Been there, done that, got the "I Survived the Bronze Age Collapse of 1200 BCE" T-shirt. The Romans had similar trouble.
             • Jenny how to get there …

               15 June 2022 at 8:12 pm

               Ancient slave economies have in common with modern growth economies that they also demand expansion. Slaves die, they grow too old to work, they win their freedom through manumission, they runaway, they rebel. Expansion and invasion and wars to capture new slaves. is as important to slave societies as invasion and wars to capture new markets and monopolise resources is to growth economies. But you knew that. You got the T-shirt.
         • joe90 1.1.2.1.2

           15 June 2022 at 2:42 pm

           A Russian talking head riffs on defending the descendants of former occupiers.

           It assumes that the Russian Federation has the right to protect the descendants of former subjects of the Russian Empire, just like the descendants of citizens of the USSR

           Thus, Russia had the right to protect the inhabitants of Gotland from discrimination by the Swedish authorities. It turns out that formally our country cannot claim the island, but it has the right to protect its inhabitants.

           https://ren-tv.translate.goog/blog/iurii-gorodnenko/980271-rossiiskie-poddannye-vstupaiut-v-nato?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
2. Molly 2

   15 June 2022 at 8:40 am

   Tweet containing a screenshot of question from an Auckland University exam, that shows direct influence of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion on education.

   A guaranteed fail if any Gender Critical thoughts are expressed. One such Gender Critical thought I immediately had was that it is Queer Theory that informs gender ideology. Transgender theory is yet another term that seeks to obfuscate.

   Admittedly, passing this particular question is not on my to do list. But this approach influences the next cohort of sociologists. Gender Critical graduates, often counsellors or psychologists will be few and far between.

   People who think this is a good thing, are usually unable to define what gender Critical is – other than 'mean'.

   https://twitter.com/rosey_nz/status/1536780422247378944?t=V4FSHXv7T9bvtRm1Q2zklg&s=19
   • Rosemary McDonald 2.1

     15 June 2022 at 9:05 am

     Morena Molly. I subscribe to evolutionary biologist Heather Heying's substack, and this popped into my inbox this morning. It is an exchange of letters between Heying and Abigail Shrier in 2020, and makes an interesting read. If that link fails… https://naturalselections.substack.com/p/the-torment-and-tragedy-of-teenage?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&s=r

     Why do we chastise teenage girls when they cut themselves, but celebrate them when they find a doctor to do it for them? When a teenage girl cuts herself, or starves herself, we try to help the human being. We do not sanctify the behavior. Why are we now celebrating a symptom?
     • Molly 2.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 10:26 am

       Thanks, Rosemary. I've read that and also recommend it.
     • Matiri 2.1.2

       15 June 2022 at 10:45 am

       It is useful to google an author, say Heather Heying, to inform whether to share their wider views.
       • Molly 2.1.2.1

         15 June 2022 at 11:14 am

         I don't share all of the wider views of my partner of 35+ yrs, and he, likewise does not share mine.

         If however, he expresses a view that I agree with. That's it. A view I agree with.

         Amazingly, this works in the wider world too. If someone with whom I have agreed with, says something I find objectionable, or abhorrent, I will take the time to challenge that view. However, despite that, we will still retain a point of agreement.

         This is how robust discussions take place, and perspectives are widened.
         • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 11:46 am

           …perspectives are widened. Yes. Sometimes I think perhaps that folks are afraid that if they widen their perspective their brains might fall out.

           Now that image is firmly planted in my brain I'm going back out to deal to some more kikuyu.
         • weka 2.1.2.1.2

           15 June 2022 at 1:44 pm

           it's also how community and society sustain themselves rather than say falling into irreconcilable divisions and then war.
       • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2.2

         15 June 2022 at 11:21 am

         Gidday Matiri.

         I suspicion you're hinting that perhaps Heying has views that are perhaps not suitable for wider sharing? I am not very good at subtle or hints…obviously…so it would be appreciated if you could indicate which particular views of Heying's you are referring to. Just so I know what not to share.
         • Molly 2.1.2.2.1

           15 June 2022 at 12:05 pm

           I'm also interested in any comments on the topic you originally posted, Rosemary.

           You know, the one about self-harming girls being offered surgery without even considering this approach may be state funded self-harm?

           "But wait a minute—I pressed the top surgeon. He also offered this service to teens who claim they are “non-binary”—that is, declare a gender identity neither male nor female. How did he know that a non-binary person had no breasts? How could he be sure that a non-binary person had a nose?

           “You know, I long ago stopped trying to totally understand this,” he said. "
   • Anker 2.2

     15 June 2022 at 11:03 am

     Shocking! They spell out if you take a gender critical position you will fail! Our universities are requiring "right think". 1984 folks.

     I will be interested to hear how Hipkins et al respond to this
3. foreign waka 3

   15 June 2022 at 9:09 am

   It is so comforting to know that prisoners get compo when they jump the fence in order to escape but this worker is pulled over the table. What is wrong with our public service? Can we still call them by that name?

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/west-auckland-scaffolder-fighting-for-acc-compensation-after-losing-both-arms/LCWTHUUOLKYHEZGEOPF6ITHFBM/
   • Descendant Of Smith 3.1

     15 June 2022 at 12:07 pm

     This is a logical consequence of what happens when employers shift their costs to workers and the workers are now "self-employed".

     This has occurred across many businesses e.g. courier drivers, trucking, care giving, cleaning.

     We stood by during the 80's and 90's as good employers who paid good wages were driven out as they couldn't compete against those who paid low wages and shifted their cots to employees – not just physical costs but sick leave, annual leave etc as well. It is a bit unfair to blame ACC it’s the wider problem causing this.

     Still happening today. It is time this rort was stopped and an 8 hour working day, 40 hour working week with time and a half paid after that and on weekends. There are firms that charge you weekend work at time and a half and double time who don't pay that to their workers actually doing the work.

     Dominic Drumm, owner of Westferry Property Services in Auckland, said he was competing with rivals that employed their cleaners as “contractors” allowing them to pay them less than he pays the people he employs directly.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128954704/the-massive-industry-in-which-companies-pretend-to-have-no-employees
   • joe90 3.2

     15 June 2022 at 5:39 pm

     It is so comforting to know that prisoners get compo when they jump the fence in order to escape

     Don't let the ACC Amendment Act 2010 disentitling inmates from receiving compensation for injuries received while committing crime get in the way of your pearl clutching.

     //
4. lprent 4

   15 June 2022 at 10:35 am

   Just tested and then updated the site to WordPress 6.0. I've been a bit busy recently, but I have been stuck in a waiting room for a nurse to deal with a dressing for an infected finger.

   Let me know if anything seems amiss. I still need to check and update the mobile version.
   • Sacha 4.1

     15 June 2022 at 3:31 pm

     Interesting how they are moving not only towards full site block editing but flexbox for layouts. Trouble keeping up. 🙂
     • lprent 4.1.1

       16 June 2022 at 11:35 am

       Open source project…. The flex is pretty good these days – the number of additional rules you have to use has been going down against standard wordpress.

       I rather like the block editing, it has started to get to the point of being quite useful. The biggest hassle is the complications with existing plugins. At some point I'm going to need to remove the plugin support for the old editor so that there aren't conflicts with things like facebook and video on the block editor.

       But next long work at home holiday, which I haven't had since 2017 due to lack of a suitable workspace at home, I'll do some upgrades. But that will be after we buy a new house with room for two separated home offices.

       I'm going to have a look at doing a new skin for this site with some of the updated tools. Mostly just flexing the columns out of their rigid 1280px width limit, and providing a fold down to the menu

       I've played with a number of the 'news' orientated tool kits like Newspaper (daily blog uses it). But they appear to be a failure in motion – they have regression / deprecated errors on each update of both the Newspaper and with the updates of WordPress.

       The advantage with this desktop site skin has been its simplicity. It has been running with the same theme since 2010 with essentially few changes. Mostly what it lacks is the flex.

       The mobile version we have been using since 2013 is pretty good and works well on phones. But I'd like to get up to the current version (that I have paid for about 18 months) that I haven't had time to integrate and test. I'd like to flex it out with the desktop version.
5. Blade 5

   15 June 2022 at 11:41 am

   Talkback educated me about vaping yesterday( ZB 11.20am)

   I have never really thought much about vaping, except how funny some vapers look surrounded by a huge cloud of mist. I have also noticed the prevalence of vaping amongst college pupils ( later confirmed).

   The first caller I heard related a conversation he'd had with a principal of a large secondary school. The principal said vaping in his school was a pandemic. He had watched bright children and sport champions become withdrawn, lose interest in school, and start to look physically ill.

   I couldn't see the connection with vaping.

   The next caller put her 16 year old daughter on the phone. She spoke of all her friends vaping; their problems, and how she herself was trying to give up. Another caller threatened his son with boarding school and confiscation of his phone if he didn't stop vaping. It worked and apparently the caller said his son became a different person when he gave up vaping.

   I again failed to see the connection between physical and mental decline and vaping.

   The next caller filled in the blanks. He had worked for a company that imported bulk flavouring agents from China. These bulk drums had a warning: not for use by humans. These products were used by vape companies to manufacture different flavourings for vapers. As he said, original vaping products were reasonably safe. These new products were an unknown quantity, plus some flavours still had nicotine added.

   So it's quite possible kids who are vaping, may be ingesting ingredients similar to synthetic drugs used in the past? That is a very scary thought.
   • tc 5.1

     15 June 2022 at 12:57 pm

     Thats across the entire vaping community it seems.

     I asked a colleagues what's in their vape as it looked like detergent and the volume of smoke was huge.

     He didn't know know nor did the rest of the vapers at the 'spot'. All professionals oblivious to what they're sucking on.
     • Blade 5.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 1:51 pm

       It's becoming a strange… and dangerous world, TC.
       • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 1:54 pm

         But not vapid.
   • Sacha 5.2

     15 June 2022 at 2:58 pm

     different flavourings

     synthetic drugs

     Quite the leap you have there.
     • Blade 5.2.1

       15 June 2022 at 3:01 pm

       Maybe. Why?
       • Sacha 5.2.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 3:04 pm

         Why would someone catastrophise without evidence?
         • Blade 5.2.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 3:08 pm

           ''So it's quite possible kids who are vaping, may be ingesting ingredients similar to synthetic drugs used in the past?''
           • Sacha 5.2.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 3:10 pm

             flavourings —> drugs

             Says more about you than about 'kids'.
             • Blade …

               15 June 2022 at 3:42 pm

               Really?

               Flavourings -> unknown ingredients.

               Synthetic drugs -> unknown ingredients.

               Deleterious physical and mental effects noted in both cases.

               ? – Used at the end of a sentence to indicate a question. · (figuratively, informal) A state of doubt or uncertainty.

               I'm afraid I must conclude you MAY be a troll… albeit a clever one.

               Unlike poor Robert above.
               • Mac1 …

                 15 June 2022 at 5:56 pm

                 Remember that conjecture word, Blade. There's conjecture, reckons and a third place where the discombobulated gather to share their wares.
   • Muttonbird 5.3

     15 June 2022 at 3:14 pm

     Am struggling to see for what flavourings might be used if not for humans.
     • Sacha 5.3.1

       15 June 2022 at 3:20 pm

       The problem as always is nicotine, regardless of what else they put with it. Cigarette companies doing an end-run around regulators.
       • I Feel Love 5.3.1.1

         16 June 2022 at 2:49 pm

         New York Times Presents series of documentaries (the first season) has an episode on vaping, & the selling of it. Very good episode. & the Tesla one season 2 is an eye opener too.
6. Molly 6

   15 June 2022 at 12:01 pm

   Kiwibank – simultaneously putting existing home loan customers under financial stress by significantly raising their interest rates – while offering up to $10,000 to new home mortgage borrowers.

   Let's be clear, banks will make profits whether the market goes down or up, because NZ homeowners are culturally reluctant to walk away from their homes even when under huge financial stress.

   https://www.kiwibank.co.nz/personal-banking/home-loans/getting-a-home-loan/cash-contribution/

   "Whether you're a first home buyer, looking for your next home or are ready to switch, get 1% of your new home loan with Kiwibank as a cash contribution, up to $10,000. This is a little extra to make life a little easier.

   For example, if your new home loan with us is $540,000, you may be eligible for a cash contribution of $5,400."
   • Poission 6.1

     15 June 2022 at 12:19 pm

     Interest rates are going up because the cost of borrowing is,The yield on government 10 yr bonds rose to 4.24% and as the RBNZ (may update) said an investor in Auckland gets a higher return on government stock then a housing investment.

     Housing in NZ is unsustainable as the cost of a median wage vs median house price is twice what is affordable.

     https://www.statista.com/statistics/1026956/house-price-to-income-ratio-new-zealand/

     The recent drivers were QE, low interest rates,and an inability to think by the Bourgeios on demand sect who thought they had an app for property investment.

     Either 10% mortgage rates or a 40% fall in property price are needed for affordable homes (the loss will return the median price back around 24 months) the US fed has signalled a .5 rise tomorrow,the market is pricing .75,signalling to the fed they want the hit now to remove all doubt.
     • Nic the NZer 6.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 1:07 pm

       Won't these .75 speculators also win the most if the Fed goes above .75? I guess it will be a real imposition on them if the Fed only delivers .5 then.
       • Poission 6.1.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 1:30 pm

         They would have already priced in 1/2 of the next signaled rise,and decreased a trade cost.
         • Nic the NZer 6.1.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 2:02 pm

           So all this commentary demanding interest rate rises is also conveniently lobying to reduce the costs of financial trades?
           • Poission 6.1.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 2:16 pm

             Altruism is not a motive of traders.(kpi's and bonuses are)
     • Molly 6.1.2

       15 June 2022 at 2:09 pm

       Yes, I understand why the interest rates are going up.

       My point – obviously badly made – was that banks will pass on those rises to existing customers without blinking, while using the profits generated by those customers, to encourage others to get into debt during a slowing/ falling market.
   • Muttonbird 6.2

     15 June 2022 at 12:40 pm

     If it's culture which defines our relationship with property, it is a sick culture:

     “New Zealand’s probably the one country that’s even more housing obsessed than Australia,” Economist Leith van Onselen of Australian blog Macrobusiness says.

     Obsessed to the extent that the housing market has swallowed the economy, last year the value of New Zealand’s housing stock surged to nearly five times New Zealand’s GDP.

     For context, Australia’s is not much better at just over four times, but the United States has housing stock valued at closer to twice its GDP last year.

     One of the things Ardern and her government is trying to do is (gently) steer this country away from such obsession. People voted for it in huge numbers and they know it has to be done, so why the tears?

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/128954010/its-the-interest-rates-stupid–house-prices-and-interest-rates-create-political-pain
     • Poission 6.2.1

       15 June 2022 at 12:48 pm

       Australias is higher now,as they experienced the same bubble (despite the population decreasing by 500K) 10t$

       https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/total-value-dwellings/latest-release
       • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 12:50 pm

         Ah, well. The NZ government is delivering results!
         • Poission 6.2.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 12:55 pm

           High priced unaffordable homes is a bad result,
           • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 1:52 pm

             But we are now below Australia's housing to GDP ratio. You have to recognise that as an achievement by the NZ Labour government.
             • Poission …

               15 June 2022 at 2:08 pm

               OCR in australia is 0.85,here 2,we rose in nov last year.

               The median multiple in NZ is just over 9 (down slightly this year) in Australia it is 8.

               The median multiple (median house to median income) has increased 50% under labour making the houses the most unaffordable globally.

               https://www.interest.co.nz/property/house-price-income-multiples

               Take that to the electorate
     • Molly 6.2.2

       15 June 2022 at 2:15 pm

       When talking about the cultural obsession with property, the demographics should be divided into homeowners, landlords and speculators. The latter two need further separation into degrees of investment.

       The division is important.

       The different groups have different reasons for both acquiring property, which affects the degrees to which they will sacrifice for their investment.
     • Sacha 6.2.3

       15 June 2022 at 2:56 pm

       People voted for it in huge numbers

       I do not recall Labour promising to crash housing prices though. House-owners have become attached to all that 'free' income for doing nothing productive.
       • Muttonbird 6.2.3.1

         15 June 2022 at 3:05 pm

         No they didn't promise to crash home prices but they did promise to fix the housing market, part of which you could argue is to change the culture. No real sign of the latter yet but certainly signs of the former.
7. Blade 7

   15 June 2022 at 2:37 pm

   Here's one for Sanctuary, Louis, Tony Veitch and Stu Munro.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/protesters-gather-at-opening-of-te-aratai-college-in-christchurch-as-jacinda-ardern-speaks/M7WHTEHTYVFXZNJI4ME3NPQW4E/

   Quote:

   ''About 50 protesters showed up outside of the new Te Aratai College in Linwood, waving flags and signs as cars tooting in support drove by.

   They could be heard yelling "shame on police" and "give us our jobs back", while others shouted, "you have destroyed our lives"

   You have destroyed our lives. Guys, you can bet that's going to generate hate. More hate than that aimed at Bennett or Key.

   Now, I know what you are thinking. 50 to100 feral protesters ( depending on which news outlet), so what? Well, here's so what: each of those protesters probably has 10,000 or more Kiwis that agree with them IN THAT REGARD.

   My original post.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-06-2022/#comment-1894276
   • Chris 7.1

     15 June 2022 at 3:11 pm

     That's one stuff-up the government's responsible for: not making provision for people to get the jobs back once the mandates were lifted. They also could've hammered home that the mandates were temporary. It's all well and good in hindsight, but it would've reduced the pushback if they had've done that.
     • Blade 7.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 3:17 pm

       Agree. The government, and society in general, just moved on after the mandates were lifted without regard for those who had lost their jobs and had basically been thrown on the scrap heap. Stranger still, some employers didn't want them back. That's loyalty for you.
       • Sacha 7.1.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 3:25 pm

         Why would you want to re-employ someone who has shown no regard for their colleagues' safety. Especially the health workers. No sympathy here.
         • Chris 7.1.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 3:31 pm

           So removing yourself from the work place shows no regard for your colleagues' safety?
           • Sacha 7.1.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 3:34 pm

             People who cared did that before it became compulsory. The whingers who shat on parliament’s lawn were not amongst those.
         • Blade 7.1.1.1.2

           15 June 2022 at 3:34 pm

           That's predicated on the assumption made by the government and some employers that people who refused to get the jab were both morally and legally reprehensible regardless of the reason for their refusal.
           • Sacha 7.1.1.1.2.1

             15 June 2022 at 3:40 pm

             Refusing to play your part in universal public health protections is practically reprehensible. Dress it up however you like.
             • Blade …

               15 June 2022 at 3:44 pm

               Dress 1 – previous allergic reactions to vaccinations.
             • mauī …

               19 June 2022 at 8:08 pm

               Forcing dedicated frontline staff out of their jobs, upending their lives, and duly fucking up the health system in the name of policy is the reprehensible thing here.
           • Anne 7.1.1.1.2.2

             15 June 2022 at 3:46 pm

             That's predicated on the correct assumption made by the government and some employers that the majority of people who refused to get the jab were both morally and legally reprehensible regardless of their excuses for their refusal.

             FIFY.
             • Blade …

               15 June 2022 at 4:02 pm

               No, let me fix it for you. The Covid jab was started before all final safety results were available to the Ministry of Health. Those results still may be outstanding( I'm not pulling my research out again)? This was clearly stated on the MOH website at the time. So we may be talking of ''buyer beware.'' being legislated against by the government.
               • Sacha …

                 15 June 2022 at 4:08 pm

                 You seem to be labouring under the delusion that viruses are rational and everyone had time to sit around and natter about it. This is a global war against a lethal enemy that has not signed the Geneva Convention, and does not wait around for fools to bray.
                 • Blade …

                   15 June 2022 at 7:27 pm

                   Viruses aren't alive. The medical fraternity tie themselves in knots to even explain what viruses are. Some say discarded strands of DNA..others say something else.

                   So, Bob is dead. He wakes up. Gets into a bed and hijacks the living occupants of said bed for his own purposes. But…bob is dead?

                   How the hell does that work?
                   • Blade …

                     15 June 2022 at 10:52 pm

                     Addendum:

                     ''For about 100 years, the scientific community has repeatedly changed its collective mind over what viruses are. First seen as poisons, then as life-forms, then biological chemicals, viruses today are thought of as being in a gray area between living and nonliving: they cannot replicate on their own but can do so in truly living cells and can also affect the behaviour of their hosts profoundly. ''

                     https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-viruses-alive-2004/
               • Nic the NZer …

                 15 June 2022 at 4:36 pm

                 Thats scandelous Blade, the MoH releasing a vaccine before appropriate safety data is collected. You will of course be providing references to back up your allegation? and providing context about how significant a breach of protocol it was.

                 Now I'll just have to revise my thinking a bit due to the other govt criticism I am hearing, that the vaccine roll out was too slow.
                 • Blade …

                   15 June 2022 at 7:10 pm

                   Not the link I wanted, but near enough.

                   https://covid.immune.org.nz/news-insights/provisional-approval-pfizer-vaccine-extended

                   Quote:

                   ''Medsafe has now renewed the provisional approval for the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for 2 years, until 3 November 2023. Provisional Consent renewal is routine and has been applied previously to other medicines.

                   Provisional approval means the pharmaceutical company must meet certain conditions, including supplying more data from its clinical trials around the world as they progress. ''

                   Read the rest of the article. It may help your case. I look forward to your reply.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     15 June 2022 at 7:56 pm

                     Thanks. That link has totally changed my mind.

                     Its actually a missunderscandal (sorry I don't know of any English equivalent of this word).

                     Here's the explanation (to be fair it was very carefully hidden at the bottom of the short page in fine same size print),

                     "Under New Zealand legislation, there is no ability to have different levels of approval for one vaccine or medicine. For example, Medsafe cannot grant full consent for the Pfizer vaccine for adults and maintain provisional consent for adolescents 12 to 15 years old (or in future applications such as 5 – 11-year-olds). This is one of the reasons why Medsafe has not moved to full approval in New Zealand for this vaccine at this time. "

                     So rather than going ahead without safety results Medsafe is explicitly not going ahead without the safety results. More specifically in particular age categories. As we also know Medsafe had not yet in 2021 but later approved the vaccine for 5-11 year olds once that data became available in early 2022.

                     Your welcome.
                   • Blade …

                     15 June 2022 at 10:22 pm

                     https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

                     This article dated: BMJ 2021;375:n2635

                     You wrote:

                     '' Medsafe had not yet in 2021 but later approved the vaccine for 5-11 year olds once that data became available in early 2022.''

                     Either Pfizer’s is giving us POSSIBLE tainted data, or Medsafe is a sleep at the wheel.

                     Did you read anything about this in our local media? I didn't. That's my point, questions remain that should have been answered before Medsafe gave the go ahead to vaccinate younger age groups.

                     You will find other links where BMJ replies to Facebook ''fact checkers''…and other where some scientists think the issues raised weren't indicative of data corruption.

                     Again that's not the point.

                     You are also welcome.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     15 June 2022 at 11:56 pm

                     Seeing as how your of a legal mind you will understand the case is going poorly when the prosecution starts withdrawing charges. In this case a reduced charge of Medsafe being 'asleep at the wheel' having received the data, rather than proceeding without the data.

                     "Either Pfizer’s is giving us POSSIBLE tainted data, or Medsafe is a sleep at the wheel."

                     It seems also POSSIBLE that Pfizer gave us perfectly good data and Medsafe doesn't engage in narcoleptic automobile use. In fact with a large amount of real world vaccine usage data this producing basically similar performance to the trial (across multiple countries) this seems highly likely.

                     Since you were unaware of this story (I was aware of it) you will also want to understand that its related to the original adult vaccine trials and specifically one of the agencies (of 153) which carried out only one part of the trial. Fortunately the trial involved 152 other such agencies doing similar sub-trials and as far as we know only this one had anything like serious concerns involved in its work.

                     Frankly its unclear what your alleging here. Medsafe is not able to do FDA investigations, so if the FDA decided there is nothing to see here they can hardly draw any other conclusions.

                     and again, no Medsafe should not have waited for all age group trials to be completed before releasing the adult vaccine. This would have delayed vaccination start until January of 2022.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 15 June 2022 at 4:38 pm

                 "I'm not pulling my research out again"

                 From where?

                 whistles nonchalantly
                 • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …

                   15 June 2022 at 5:35 pm

                   I considered responding to Blade, Robert, but you put it much more elegantly than I ever could.
                 • Mac1 …

                   15 June 2022 at 5:58 pm

                   Fundamentally sound, Robert.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 6:25 pm

                     Cheers, gentlemen.
                   • Blade …

                     15 June 2022 at 7:16 pm

                     Lol…you poor deluded fools. I can understand Robert having difficulties, but the rest of you? And you Veitch. You wrote:

                     ''I considered responding to Blade, Robert, but you put it much more elegantly than I ever could.''

                     You give credit to a troll?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     15 June 2022 at 8:08 pm

                     Tony declined to respond, Blade.

                     Not give credit.

                     Mac1’s comment is…fundamentally sound.
                   • In Vino …

                     15 June 2022 at 10:35 pm

                     Blade – you have taught me that there is such a thing as a malicious bleeding heart.

                     Thanks
         • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.1.3

           15 June 2022 at 4:26 pm

           Why would you want to re-employ someone who has shown no regard for their colleagues' safety. Especially the health workers. No sympathy here.

           You'll be pleased to know Sacha, that after a brief period of being paid as Peter's carer, the Universe returned to rights and that payment was cancelled because I chose not to take the Pfizer Product. Largely because it was new and experimental and I had spoken to too many people who had needed days incapacitated in bed to recover from their shots to risk leaving Peter without an experienced carer…even for a short while.

           Peter refused it because of increasing neurological instability associated with his spinal cord injury made him very reluctant to risk exacerbating that…such issues being widely recorded adverse effects of the jab. The fact that neither of us felt free to discuss these concerns with any health professional made us even more reluctant. Censorship will have that effect.

           We both got Covid in March. Got sick, didn't die, got better. No meds, no hospital. A few weeks later we organised to have a few hours per week of relief care so that I could go shopping and not have to worry about Peter being alone for hours. Local carer, suitably triple vaxxed, sits and chats (the times available were well outside our usual hands- on care times and the skills required are beyond their level of experience) while I do the necessary .

           So, oh the bleeding irony, when said triple vaxxed (and morally and legally acceptable) carer went partying of a weekend, came here and chatted the following day and developed a sore throat and tested positive for Covid the day after.

           So, Sacha. Explain to me how Peter and I are supposed to react to this.

           The Pfizer Product does not prevent infection, transmission or symptomatic disease.

           The mandates were never justified for any category of worker.

           How is the health system holding up? You know, the one we were supposed to be saving by getting the jab? How many fully vaxxed health workers at any one time were absent from work at the various DHBs over the past two months?
           • gsays 7.1.1.1.3.1

             15 June 2022 at 5:59 pm

             I really appreciate your contributions on this subject, Rosemary. Your patience, eloquence and real life experience are a valuable contribution.

             I sometimes want to engage with those who think everything is tickety-boo with the state's response, Pfizer's product rushed into the market with the FDA's asterisk concerning no other alternative/emergency and then mandating its use. Akin to another post here in TS about folk being anti-woke. There are similarities in the mindset: assuredness of their position and when evidence emerges suggesting it may not be as we have been led to believe, you get …. crickets. So I largely don't bother.

             The video you posted a week (two weeks ?) ago, with the Scandinavian professor who would not now recommend the mRNA vaccines to anyone unless they were old or have serious health issues was sobering.

             Thanks again for your efforts.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               15 June 2022 at 6:36 pm

               Your appreciation is appreciated gsays.

               Christine Stabell-Benn (Danish) knows her stuff. She has done vaccines forever and it not afraid to acknowledge the bad with the good. She is a hard core scientist…who cares. Rare these days. This pre -dates Covid, and shows how all is not necessarily good in the vaccine arena.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 15 June 2022 at 8:31 pm

                 …all is not necessarily good in the vaccine arena.

                 Absolutely – vaccines and other preventative health interventions aren't perfect. And yet, as Prof. Stabell Benn observes @13:30 minutes:

                 This makes vaccines the largest uptapped resource for improving health globally. – Prof. Stabell Benn

                 She knows her stuff, and further asserts that the polarised vaccine debate is hindering the wider acceptance of her research results, and delaying the development and roll-out of (more beneficial) live vaccines.

                 Seems that polarisation in the vaccine area might be counterproductive to improving health, so no (more) polarisation from me.
                 • RedLogix …

                   15 June 2022 at 8:51 pm

                   Thank you. And from my part I apologise for my 'tad personal' snark last night. Current events are unnerving to anyone following them closely and sometimes it spills over when it should not.

                   Cheers.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     15 June 2022 at 10:51 pm

                     Thanks RL. Apologies from me too; all the best to you and yours.
     • Anne 7.1.2

       15 June 2022 at 3:40 pm

       "They also could've hammered home that the mandates were temporary. "

       That is precisely what they did do… over and over again. Especially Ardern. She emphasised it for all the media outlets. Something I particularly noticed though, there were few journalists, reporters and other commentators who picked up on it in their summaries. Not saying it was a deliberate ploy but yet another example of their often lazy reporting.
   • Sacha 7.2

     15 June 2022 at 3:16 pm

     And each of these students probably has 10,000 or more of their countryfolk agreeing with them..

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300613657/prime-minister-mobbed-for-selfies-during-christchurch-high-school-visit

     Reckons are easy.
     • Blade 7.2.1

       15 June 2022 at 3:18 pm

       Political polls reckon better.
       • Stuart Munro 7.2.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 10:42 pm

         Polling (like any other kind of survey) is tricky.

         Here's the story of a famous one.

         In NZ, poll size, and the inclinations of the pollsters, render may results dubious. They are more a vehicle for the bandwagon effect than an objective measure of public opinion.

         The leader of Belarus has polls that claim 90% support. But there were massive nationwide street protests against his 're-election'. Generally speaking, that wouldn't occur were his polling genuine.
   • DB Brown 7.3

     15 June 2022 at 7:15 pm

     It's funny how the 'pull yourself up by your socks' types become victims immediately should hardship befall them. And by hardship, I mean nothing more than accumulating excess a little slower than the ridiculous rate they've grown accustomed to. The free ride has slowed a little due to global conditions.

     "Ruined my life."

     Such drama queens. So utterly incapable of self reflection their entire life is apparently ruined by local government – not their decisions, their efforts, their actions or their inability to adapt.
     • Robert Guyton 7.3.1

       15 June 2022 at 8:16 pm

       Is "snowflake" the appropriate term here?
       • Nic the NZer 7.3.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 8:21 pm

         No, that's cultural appropriation.
         • Robert Guyton 7.3.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 8:26 pm

           Whose culture? Inuit?
           • Nic the NZer 7.3.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 8:35 pm

             No. The Inuit have at least 20 different words for a 'Snowflake'. My culture is limited by straight talk to calling a snowflake a snowflake.
             • RedLogix …

               15 June 2022 at 9:02 pm

               Worked alongside Inuit people in the Canadian Arctic in 2018. Quiet wiry people but you probably do not ever want to piss them off. Opposite of snowflakes.

               At dinner one night I asked one of them where he came from – thinking he would FIFO'ing in from one of the 17 settlements that are spread out over the huge expanse of Nunavut. (Essentially it is a territory larger than Western Europe with a total population around the size of Gisbourne.)

               Much to my bafflement he said 'Oh – around here'. ' Cambridge Bay?' I asked – being the nearest settlement I knew of. 'No – around here about 4km away'. Well that had me beat – because there is absolutely nothing but frozen wilderness for at least 100km in every direction. Turns out he really did grow up there – married and had four kid all in an tiny, isolated group of stone huts – lined with animal pelts and heated with seal oil lamps. Everything had to be hunted and processed by them the hard and dangerous way.

               It was -25degC outside at the time – a temperature he was grumbling about. Because of climate change was about 30degC too fucking hot for him.

               One of the more bizarre conversations I have ever had.
               • Blade …

                 15 June 2022 at 11:28 pm

                 The British SAS did research on why some troopers were better suited to different climatic conditions. I would assume because some troopers handled certain conditions better than others. The conditions you describe would kill me. I can hardly function once the temp drops below -3 C. However, heat has little affect on me. I crave it. I find winter time hell.
                 • RedLogix …

                   15 June 2022 at 11:50 pm

                   I'm the exact opposite – I found the arctic cold invigorating. It is fair to say that what we get in NZ is that miserable damp cold around within five or ten degrees of zero – where nothing is properly dry and it is impossible to feel comfortable.

                   However when it gets below about -15degC however all the moisture in the air has frozen out and there is no liquid phase water left. Most of the time I was there it was between -20 and -40degC outside and that is a quite different experience.

                   In the camp there was no water except in the showers and kitchen that were constantly heated. I could shower and wrap a towel around me and walk 15m down the corridor to my room and my hair would be bone dry when I got there. Everything wet just sublimated dry instantly.

                   We had three major building about 2min walk apart to get between, and on my first week or so I would rug up with all my warm gear. But then I discovered if the wind was not too bad I could do it in my t-shirt – yes it was cold and I am no more immune to exposure or frostnip than anyone else – but I found that enjoyable. On other occasions I got to walk about 40min away from camp, but once I had gotten around a corner and out of sight I started to feel very isolated and alone. That was as far as I was prepared to go.

                   There was an alternative path for me to go from the back of the processing building and down to the camp by another route past the power plant. That was much less used and not well lit – but I enjoyed it until one night I got that sense something was watching. Sure enough we found wolf track the next morning just 10m or so from where I had been blithering along. Stuck to the main route after that.

                   The coldest we got to was -63degC including windchill, getting on the plane one morning. That was brutal – 2 minutes of that fully kitted up was quite enough.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     16 June 2022 at 7:51 am

                     "one night I got that sense something was watching"

                     That's an interesting experience, RedLogix. Experiments have been done to determine whether people can in fact "feel" hidden eyes upon them and it turns out, we can, in fact.

                     I wonder how that works?
     • Blade 7.3.2

       15 June 2022 at 10:36 pm

       A disjointed comment probably done on the fly after seeing your fellow drones extinguished by a wasp. I see Robert is trolling in support, so I will take your korero with a grain of salt…ok, a pinch of honey.

       ''Such drama queens. So utterly incapable of self reflection their entire life is apparently ruined by local government – not their decisions, their efforts, their actions or their inability to adapt.''

       I take it you mean central government?

       The point has flown right over your head. What they are, aren't or what you think of them is immaterial. What one of them might do is.
       • DB Brown 7.3.2.1

         16 June 2022 at 7:51 am

         So you've joined those losers making veiled threats now "What one of them might do is"

         Should we be scared?

         There's people losing their shit over the price of gas right now I can't help the precious dears if they've zero foresight.

         As for the protestors, I couldn't care less how many 'real people' decided to get in bed with those white supremacist tossers. If you lie down with dogs…

         For the record you aint a wasp you're an immature lightweight. Your contributions are garbage. You are as dumb as fuck.
8. Blade 8

   15 June 2022 at 2:49 pm

   Oh, man. I'm in love with this woman. Finally, someone with the guts to lay it on the line. This type of tokenism has riled me for some time. It is misread by liberals as everyone being on board with te reo and Maori culture. The reality is it's just white wokisters wanting to be able to say: ''US TOO!!

   Quote:

   "I encourage te reo use but in no way will I tolerate tokenistic use of reo by govt agencies as an attempt to show govt depts are culturally competent.''

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-conservation-minister-kiri-allan-calls-out-tokenistic-use-of-te-reo-at-doc/XAXTVIAQC2NXEUMJFOKN7NU2YY/
   • Ad 8.1

     15 June 2022 at 3:01 pm

     You misunderstand the Minister. She wants more Te Reo not less.
     • Blade 8.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 3:04 pm

       No, you misunderstand. You misunderstand what I have written previously. If you are going to use te reo, you do it properly. And not on an ad hoc basis.
       • Ad 8.1.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 3:24 pm

         That's possible too.

         If on the face of it she wants less or no Te Reo if it is not done somehow properly, then the Minister is wrong on multiple counts.

         – Use of Te Reo is strongly encouraged in most Departments whether she calls it 'tokenistic' or not.

         – Use of Te Reo in most Departments isn't reversible now. It's been going on for many years and accelerated under this government.

         – The Minister is not an arbiter of what is or is not 'tokenistic' whether she thinks she is or not. All Ministries get advice on how and when it is used, and most have specialists in-house.

         – The Minister should instead should show where Ministries are doing this well, such as in the multiple mana whenua partnerships with DoC all over the place which are of course all bilingual.

         It's the kind of timesome moral policing that achieves nothing except play into the hands of the media. Clearly she has tried to walk it all back with "misunderstood", but it was dumb and I am sure the PMs' department will have told her so.
     • Sacha 8.1.2

       15 June 2022 at 3:16 pm

       No, he is right on this one. She wants meaningful reo or none.
       • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.1

         15 June 2022 at 6:20 pm

         Oh, please! Straight into perfect reo, tikanga and understanding of te Ao Maori?

         Please think again.

         It ain't easy.

         Cut some slack.

         Give a person a break.

         Calm the farm.

         People are trying. Trying to learn, accommodate, align, be respectful.

         If they sound awkward, send them some love. How would YOU sound?

         Be kind 🙂
         • Sacha 8.1.2.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 11:39 pm

           He is right about what she is saying. I defer to this expert Māori leader about what language she wants to see in reports. Given the timing, the message may have been about the previous Minister. Why would my preferences matter.
   • Robert Guyton 8.2

     15 June 2022 at 6:27 pm

     "Oh, man."

     Really?

     Are you only addressing the men here on The Standard?
     • Mac1 8.2.1

       15 June 2022 at 7:36 pm

       Come, come, Robert, you know that we are not real men here on The Standard, (magnificent beards or not), but rather wokester wimps and "poor deluded fools". 🙂
       • Robert Guyton 8.2.1.1

         15 June 2022 at 8:23 pm

         I sense that Blade, despite being an organic farmer, au fait with the use of biochar, vortexes and seawater fertilisers, has a face as hairless as a baby's.

         Of course Blade may claim to have cultivated a Methuselah-like beard to match his organic 10 acre lifestyle but I'll take that with a grain of bought-off-farm charcoal (how much charcoal did you say you bought, Blade, to cover your 10-acres needs? Quite a lot, I'd imagine and I imagine you imagine too!).
         • In Vino 8.2.1.1.1

           15 June 2022 at 10:58 pm

           Aye, Robert, I see Blade as the most pretentious yet obvious troll that we have encountered to date. Pretentions of pure innocence combined with material that smacks of evil intent, and then volumnious denial.. often 'on an ad hoc basis'.

           From where does Blade get all the time to contribute so generously?

           And why does he put so much effort into doing so? And why does he somehow remind me of earlier trolls going under other names? Language patterns?

           Yes I would love to visit Blade's organic farm too.

           How about an Open Day?
           • RedLogix 8.2.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2022 at 11:12 pm

             Trolls usually drop and run, and rarely engage with points of argument as Blade does. And demanding that people dox themselves is a really bad idea.
             • In Vino …

               15 June 2022 at 11:41 pm

               Fair enough.
               • In Vino …

                 16 June 2022 at 8:59 pm

                 On second thoughts,.. Rubbish.

                 We are not talking about what trolls usually do. We are talking about an individual who could well be an exception.

                 Secondly, did I actually demand that anybody do anything at all?
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   16 June 2022 at 9:09 pm

                   Good call, In Vino, and just what I thought… "Trolls usually" tries to obscure non-usual troll behaviour – well done you.

                   Trolls usually hide beneath the arches of bridges…

                   So if this troll isn't, he can't be a troll..

                   smiles
           • Blade 8.2.1.1.1.2

             15 June 2022 at 11:16 pm

             ''And why does he put so much effort into doing so? And why does he somehow remind me of earlier trolls going under other names? Language patterns.''

             Those are serious implied allegations. You will need to back that up. Give us some names so the site can have these checked out.
             • In Vino …

               15 June 2022 at 11:51 pm

               Implied allegations? Well, I am glad they are not full allegations! I am aging, and the only name of a past troll I can remember at the moment is a guy who went for a while by the name of Chuck. The site have already told me that such accusations are unwise, and that while they try to track such things, they cannot be sure that they are aware of all that is happening, but that I should refrain from accusations. That was years ago now.

               So fair enough; I withdraw my 'implied allegations'.

               Looking forward to further respectful debate.
               • Blade …

                 15 June 2022 at 11:58 pm

                 Cool.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 16 June 2022 at 7:57 am

                 "Language patterns"

                 Spot on.

                 I'd add "tone" and "underlying intent".
                 There was a guy, very clever indeed, who used to post here or on Frogblog, who talked about being “on the spectrum” and also this aspect of commenting patterns. He used an algorithmic programme of some sort (maybe built it himself” to determine whether “anonymous of Tawa” was also “anonymous of Helensville”. I wish I could remember his name. I wish he still posted here.
         • RedLogix 8.2.1.1.2

           15 June 2022 at 11:30 pm

           You may be amused to know I once attended a four day flow form workshop at Taruna College in 1988 led by none other than John Wilkes himself.

           I was living in Kawerau at the time and it was in the immediate aftermath of Cyclone Bola. I had taken my mountain bike through the old Motu Road (and struggled through some monumental slips) and stayed with a friend who ran 2,000 acres of hill country farm north of Matawai. It took four days to reach him, and he was incredibly surprised anyone turned up at all. Stayed a week to help him get some fences sorted and then headed out to the coast. Went north and stayed at my home marae then, south to Hastings. A bit of an adventure just getting there.

           The course was most memorable for the remarkable collection of other people there. PP was of course there, but lots of other really fascinating people with far more real life experience than I had. I enjoyed it immensely even if I did feel like a bit of an imposter is such rare company.

           Still plan on building one when we get back to NZ. I have a perfect spot for it in mind. Will be nine bowls long at least, four chambers each – and very beautiful if I have my way.
           • Robert Guyton 8.2.1.1.2.1

             16 June 2022 at 8:59 am

             You never fail to amaze 🙂

             PP stayed here with us, back in the day. Will you hand-form your flow form bowls from clay? I had a simple form here long ago, but it's been lost somehow. I love the swish. I keep axolotyls now and bet they'd love a spin in one, for an invigorating short-while, at least 🙂
             • RedLogix …

               16 June 2022 at 11:00 am

               The only ones I have seen were cast in some form. I had not thought of hand making them in clay but it makes sense if you want each one to be slightly different.
9. logie97 9

   15 June 2022 at 4:14 pm

   It has interested me to know how the claims of "champions of small hardworking kiwis/small business owners" (otherwise known as the National party) stand up. So I did a little "unscientific" research – using Wiki – to see what "Start-up/self-employed" experience the current National party Caucus had. Several (and I got bored after reading the first 13 ranked profiles) went straight from Academia into consultancies/political staffing jobs. Many, like the leader appeared to have walked into already well established and bankrolled organisations, or inherited considerable wealth. None would appear to have been from "battling little Kiwi" backgrounds.

   So I would suggest they are hardly justified in calling out the government MPs as "out of touch/lacking experience".
   • Ad 9.1

     15 June 2022 at 4:49 pm

     Corporate work and business consulting does count as business experience.
     • logie97 9.1.1

       15 June 2022 at 9:17 pm

       Not in question. Much easier to take a few risks with other peoples' money – a bit like another of our whiz kid former PM's.
   • Anne 9.2

     15 June 2022 at 5:24 pm

     … (I got bored after reading the first 13 ranked profiles) went straight from Academia into consultancies.

     If you had struggled to the bitter end, I doubt the outcome would have been any different.

     When you say they went from Academia… bear in mind most went to expensive private schools where one's shot at academic prowess and consultancy work had far more to do with who Daddy knew than any budding talent.
     • Robert Guyton 9.2.1

       15 June 2022 at 6:28 pm

       "who Daddy knew"

       Elegant!
     • Mac1 9.2.2

       15 June 2022 at 7:48 pm

       I did a similar exercise an election or three ago here based on the number of teachers and academics that National loved to disparage were found on the Labour benches.. There were many in National….

       Here's the reference. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21072015/#comment-1048166

       Quite an interesting discussion actually…..
       • Anne 9.2.2.1

         15 June 2022 at 8:48 pm

         Yes, that was interesting.

         10 /10 to ianmac who wrote:

         21 July 2015 at 10:33 am

         Genter, “Her financial hero is American Herman Daly, who was one of the first economists to talk about the incompatibility of infinite economic growth in a finite world.”
         Makes you wonder where we are heading. Constant need to increase population and grow the economy might be a disaster in the long run.
   • gsays 9.3

     15 June 2022 at 6:13 pm

     Sounds like the first 13 mirror the Prime Minister's experience….
     • logie97 9.3.1

       15 June 2022 at 9:25 pm

       … I assume you read the whole of my post.
10. Sacha 10

    15 June 2022 at 4:20 pm

    "It was unclear what protesters outside the school were campaigning against."

    https://twitter.com/1NewsNZ/status/1536887777970868224
    • Anne 10.1

      15 June 2022 at 5:42 pm

      They done like the evil media and they done like Marxism and someone's got a hang up on Satan. That seems the basis of their complaint.
11. Joe90 11

    15 June 2022 at 4:23 pm

    We're getting lucky.

    https://twitter.com/DigiEconomist/status/1536614407580569600
12. Just Saying 12

    15 June 2022 at 5:25 pm

    Response to foreign waka at 3

    I think you might be mixing up two different aspects of ACC. Prisoners do not get earnings related compensation (compo) because they are not wage or salary-earners.

    Both injured people would be entitled to any private medical treatment for their injuries being heavily subsidised by ACC, provided they could prove their injuries were caused by an accident and not by disease. (nb This might sound straight forward, but it is surprisingly complex, particularly where age -related degeneration might be a factor in any injury caused by an accident.)

    Damn, I was hoping Lynn's upgrade would fix the problems I have in posting. It hasn't, but I only had to go through part of the usual rigmarole to be able to post here, so things might be looking up. But it has dropped to the bottom again. Apologies

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