Open mike 17/03/2020

79 comments on “Open mike 17/03/2020 ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   17 March 2020 at 7:29 am

   Apparently the government is going to launch a war style campaign to mobilise and empower the population. It is important to understand this isn't just a rhetoric – it will require the whole nation to do it's bit to save lives from COVID-19.

   Meanwhile, in the dystopian UK, billionaire Richard Branson (worth eight billion NZ dollars) is asking for a 15 billion dollar bailout for his airline whilst demanding the 8,500 Virgin Atlantic employees take eight weeks unpaid leave. If he paid his staff $1000 a week it would cost $68,000,000 for eight weeks or about .85% of Branson's personal fortune.
   • Wayne 1.1

     17 March 2020 at 9:13 am

     Given that much of his wealth will be Virgin Airline shares, it is highly unlikely his current wealth is anything like $8 billion. How likely is it that he has a spare $68 million in actual cash?

     Thats the thing with most billionaires. Most of their wealth is in the companies they own. Sure they will have a lot of cash, but probably way less than you think. A lot of their spending is from lines of credit which they have due to their wealth of their shareholdings. That is all going to dry up.

     This whole thing is a bit like the GFC (except much worse). The govt has to prop up companies and banks as much as it does individuals. Otherwise you get a complete system wide crash. And then even governments can't help, at least not to the extent they could if the system wide crash can be avoided.
     • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.1.1

       17 March 2020 at 9:41 am

       Right on cue – an apologist for the wealthy!

       The pitchforks are coming!
       • Wayne 1.1.1.1

         17 March 2020 at 9:59 am

         TV,

         You are misreading the point I am making. The challenge right now is to avoid a system wide crash, not precipitate it.

         I know a bunch of commenters, including you, on The Standard see this crisis as an opportunity to herald in the revolution. But that is not going to happen. The govt is going to do its best to sustain the economy, not destroy it.

         But in the aftermath it (the economy and all of us in it) will be different. Will global tourism ever fully recover, at least within the next 3 to 5 years? Maybe all airlines will be smaller for many years to come. Far less cruising holidays. Way more local tourism. Way less eating out. The hundreds of billions (including Kiwisaver investments in these sectors) invested in all these industries will be gone forever.

         It is not hard to think of other changes. But I am pretty sure that New Zealand farming as a source of export food will continue in essentially the same form as at present. The world will still need our food. As indeed does our economy and all of us in the towns and cities who are indirectly dependent on it. Bomber Bradbury's hope for the destruction of the export farming sector is not going to happen.
         • gsays 1.1.1.1.1

           17 March 2020 at 10:20 am

           Branson and his 'billionaire' ilk, and the aspirational middle class are the problem.

           I am sure Bransons business interests are arranged in ways that one can not impact on the other. Trusts or some other legal jiggery pokery that keeps him rich.

           It is time for this 'not as cash rich as I may think' business leader to realise (sell) some companies and pay his staff the redundancies they are due, not coming across all socialist when it suits him.
           • Wayne 1.1.1.1.1.1

             17 March 2020 at 10:23 am

             How do you sell an airline at the moment?
             Given that Branson is asking for state support so soon, probably shows how indebted he is. I am pretty certain the government will be expecting major shareholders (the likes of Branson and his cash) to step up as a condition of providing support to the airline, or any other business.
             • I Feel Love …

               17 March 2020 at 10:30 am

               The "revolution" is happening, look at the Tax Payers Union for eg.
               • Wayne …

                 17 March 2020 at 10:35 am

                 I imagine the govt will be taking a bigger stake in Air NZ and any other large business that needs a special bailout. But they are hardly going to take equity stakes in all New Zealand business, big and small across all sectors. Way too complicated. On that point the Tax Payers Union has got it wrong.
                 • SPC …

                   17 March 2020 at 12:23 pm

                   And subsidiaries of foreign companies, or ones with large foreign shareholdings?

                   Do we socialise losses there to get continued "foreign investment"?

                   The losses some local companies face is going to result in them being under-capitalised – in normal times they offer a share issue or seek a white knight partner. These are not normal times.

                   A government partner and later sale of the shareholding – on the market, or to one party is not unreasonable.
                   • KJT …

                     17 March 2020 at 2:45 pm

                     There is a good argument for wage subsidies, allowance for later tax payments, for sole traders and small firms to keep them going.

                     Based on previous tax paid income, of course.

                     It is in banks, and suppliers, interest for businesses to continue, rather than default into bankruptcy, so in general a business has more options to help cashflow, than a wage earner, or welfare recipient.
                 • Ad …

                   17 March 2020 at 2:51 pm

                   By a long way you are our most qualified commenter here, so hang in there Wayne.

                   Do encourage your previous colleagues to support this government's recovery package.
             • RedBaronCV …

               17 March 2020 at 2:31 pm

               As any rich person could tell you – you don't get something without paying for it- any govt subsidy anywhere around a billionaire should come with a reciprocal transfer of wealth in the form of equity or property transfer. The uk govt may end up owning a carribean island or two but hey…
         • Sabine 1.1.1.1.2

           17 March 2020 at 10:38 am

           you obviously feel content in your uselessness, but i am relieved to see that you find no issue with Socialism when it is obscenly weatlhy people who are hanging of the government tit.

           Richard Branson Wealth as per 2020 – 4.1 billion

           https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/05/how-virgin-became-one-of-the-uks-leading-healthcare-providers

           lesser known is this,….the man does not make his money only on airplanes he does make a good portion of it in Healthcare, and thus stands to make much money from the current health crisis.

           Someone yesterday told you to go fuck yourself with your low concern trolling about 'socialism' for the poor. And i can only second that.

           As for airlines, they too can be nationalised, grounded, and when the world returns to something resembling normal people might go back to flying in a year of several. As for Richard Branson, he can get fucked too.
         • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.3

           17 March 2020 at 10:43 am

           Branson is an excellent example of an entrepreneur who has created remarkable wealth in many fields. He's done things beyond the capacity of the vast majority of people, yet envy of him is both palpable and deplorable. You are quite correct of course, wealthy people don't necessarily have a lot of spare cash lying around, and if his businesses goes under permanently, a lot of people will lose jobs. Yet it seems some commenters here would prefer these people lose their jobs, rather than a successful business they deeply resent get tided over a bad patch.

           There is of course a balance here. Many people have good reason to be angry about the way big banks were bailed out during the GFC, an event caused by their own actions, and yet were never held accountable for in any meaningful way. In the meantime millions of ordinary people lost a great deal. By all means consider bailing out Virgin, but there has to be a quid pro quo of some kind.

           For some years now I've been exploring the deeper nature of the so-called 'mixed model' economy. Why is it that societies which embrace both commercialism and socialism seem to deliver the best outcomes? What are the limits on both, when do they both go too far? What are the good features of both, and how do we construct social models that develop synergy between them?

           While my starting point is socialism, I'm increasingly frustrated by narrow ideologues here on the left whose obvious agenda is 'smash capitalism'; while at the same time I've never had a moment for those right wingers who refuse to acknowledge that all human success is built on a platform of social trust and cohesion.

           In this light I appreciate many of your comments here Wayne. Not that I always agree with you but that you do reach out across this deplorable political divide with good intent.

           Cheers
           • KJT 1.1.1.1.3.1

             17 March 2020 at 1:40 pm

             Straight from Ayn Rands. "Rich people, are wealth creators".

             Yeah sure.

             Next right wing meme?
           • KJT 1.1.1.1.3.2

             17 March 2020 at 2:27 pm

             Branson is a "prime example" of how to get rich by "socialising your loses" and privatising profits. While lowering wages and avoiding taxes at the same time.

             Finding a more original way of extracting wealth from the community.

             Not dissimilar to New Zealand's asset strippers and the runners down of former public assets

             Entrepreneurs, real ones, find something to sell that benefits people.

             Branson has, like bankers, almost certainly has destroyed more real wealth, than he has created.

             "Wealth creators" my arse.

             By all means bail out the soon to be jobless Virgin staff.
             Spending money on bailing out billionaire tax dodgers, sticks in my craw.
         • Ad 1.1.1.1.4

           17 March 2020 at 11:37 am

           Agree.

           The tourism we retain is going to be narrower, and much wealthier.

           Reminds me of Birch's first report after the oil crisis, which led to his Think Big.

           Will be a very interesting package this afternoon.
         • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.1.1.1.5

           17 March 2020 at 12:27 pm

           For once you are quite right, Wayne, I do hope this economic crisis will herald a revolution.

           I'd like to see the obscene inequality of this country levelled a little, by taxing the rich and closing the loopholes.

           I'd like to see the poor and those on welfare be able to live with dignity and have access to the occasional treat (whatever that may be).

           I'd like to see this country begin to take climate change seriously.

           In other words, a complete reset.

           I'm not holding my breath.
     • bill 1.1.2

       17 March 2020 at 10:50 am

       The govt has to prop up companies and banks as much as it does individuals.

       Why?

       …governments can't help, at least not to the extent they could if the system wide crash can be avoided.

       How so?

       Is your thinking on what constitutes "government" limited to a box that's jam packed with immovable notions of capitalism as some natural or inevitable expression of order?

       Coronavirus might be our last best chance to change the path we're on and stop with this crazy warming of the plant "because" bullshit. If you lack the imagination to envisage any way other than the same old way, then perhaps it's time for you to spend your days watching soaps because you have nothing of worth to offer.

       Alternatively, push at the constraints of the box that contains your patterns of thoughts, and you never know, you might be in line for a pleasant surprise or two.
       • Sabine 1.1.2.1

         17 March 2020 at 11:07 am

         nah, its all good. Captialism is what is gonna save us, one dead body at a time.

         https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/national/18309589.branson-criticised-virgin-atlantic-staff-forced-take-unpaid-leave/

         Billionaire Sir Richard Branson has been urged by Labour politicians to cover the wages of Virgin Atlantic staff forced to take unpaid leave due to the coronavirus.

         https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/richard-bransons-virgin-healthcare-paid-21366075

         EXCLUSIVE: Virgin Healthcare has been exposed as a 'parasite' on the NHS as a campaigner slams the firm as it's revealed it paid no corporation tax

         Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin healthcare group has not paid a penny in corporation tax while being handed £2billion worth of NHS and local authority deals.

         but essentially what our National Party Mouth (i guess they consider Benefit, Oravida and NO Bridges just too toxic for these trying times) Wayne wants is socialism, as without it non of these super rich and their rich man tit sucking Toadies would be where they are.
         • Matiri. 1.1.2.1.1

           17 March 2020 at 11:28 am

           Privatise the profits and socialise the losses.

           Branson/Virgin are also into trains, taking over some of the British Rail network – calls for the UK government to step in as there aren't any passengers any more.
     • mac1 1.1.3

       17 March 2020 at 1:29 pm

       I note that a billionaire like the Democrat former presidential candidate Mike Bloomberg promised to give away $8 billion of his $62 billion wealth, so it must therefore be possible for him and billionnaires like Branson to liberate large amounts of wealth.

       How else do you give away 8% of your wealth? It must be available as cash.

       Secondly, Branson must have huge ability to borrow cash against his holdings.

       It's a bit rich to put 8500 employees on 8 weeks unpaid employment and cry poverty for yourself.
     • AB 1.1.4

       17 March 2020 at 1:50 pm

       If Virgin is so indebted that it is going to fold – it may be better to let it fold and bail out the employees rather than Branson and the shareholders. This won't apply to all industries or companies, but the future of airlines has to be problematic.

       As a rule of thumb – helicopter money in a crisis should go to the bottom of the tree. Companies with reduced revenues can lay off staff, temporarily reduce labour costs and cut operations. Helicopter money shouldn't be used to prop up companies with bad fundamentals – or (as in the GFC) crooks who should be in gaol.
2. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2

   17 March 2020 at 7:34 am

   The post-Covid-19 ramifications of contracting the virus seem to be quite drastic:

   https://twitter.com/Dr_M_Guthridge/status/1238763122992631809?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1238763122992631809&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thecanary.co%2Fglobal%2Fworld-analysis%2F2020%2F03%2F15%2Fthe-other-potential-coronavirus-catastrophe-no-one-is-talking-about%2F
   • Gabby 2.1

     17 March 2020 at 10:36 am

     And what is mecfs when it's at home?
     • Barfly 2.1.1

       17 March 2020 at 11:07 am

       myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome
     • RedLogix 2.1.2

       17 March 2020 at 11:08 am

       Most people know it as chronic fatigue syndrome, or just ME. All serious viral infections have the potential to cause long-term damage that is poorly understood and treated.

       In my late 20's I got a very serious 3 month long attack of mononucleosis that decades later still comes back to bite me as a bout of deep fatigue if I overdo it. On the wider scale of things I consider myself fortunate, but from time to time it's proven a real bugger.
     • veutoviper 2.1.3

       17 March 2020 at 11:10 am

       Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome

       Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a disabling and complex illness.

       People with ME/CFS are often not able to do their usual activities. At times, ME/CFS may confine them to bed. People with ME/CFS have overwhelming fatigue that is not improved by rest. ME/CFS may get worse after any activity, whether it’s physical or mental. This symptom is known as post-exertional malaise (PEM). Other symptoms can include problems with sleep, thinking and concentrating, pain, and dizziness. People with ME/CFS may not look ill. However,

       • People with ME/CFS are not able to function the same way they did before they became ill.
       • ME/CFS changes people’s ability to do daily tasks, like taking a shower or preparing a meal.
       • ME/CFS often makes it hard to keep a job, go to school, and take part in family and social life.
       • ME/CFS can last for years and sometimes leads to serious disability.
       • At least one in four ME/CFS patients is bed- or house-bound for long periods during their illness.

       More here https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/about/index.html

       As well as an after effect of various viral diseases etc it often goes hand in hand with a wide range of autoimmune conditions such as Rheumatoid Arthritis, Thyroid authoimmune conditions, Pernicious Anemia, etc
3. Bruce 3

   17 March 2020 at 7:49 am

   https://youtu.be/aox7CeOdmOY

   The run on toilet paper explained.
   • Sacha 3.1

     17 March 2020 at 8:17 am

     Brilliant. A more sober reinforcement..

     https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1239322266309099520
4. Macro 4

   17 March 2020 at 9:07 am

   
5. Jimmy 5

   17 March 2020 at 9:36 am

   I hope Jacinda (or the authorities) get tough and make an example of anyone deliberately not self isolating, although it is going to be extremely hard to police. Saw on the news a reporter interviewing people arriving at airport, and some said they would not be isolating and would continue their travels around the country.
   • Sabine 5.1

     17 March 2020 at 10:43 am

     I hope that before she gets tough on anyone trying to make a living, she will get herself in front of some cameras and announce that

     a. there is a rent/mortgage/residential lease holiday for at the very least 3 month.

     b. the Ird is to send a check to any household (fuck means testing) of at least 3 $ grand per month if there is no rent/mortgage/residential lease so that people who are at home, not working, having lost their jobs cause the businesses are closed, bankrupt etc, can still pay the landlords, electricity utilities and food. You know that thing that keep us alive in general.

     and i hope she does it soon.

     Because i can see ;people being evicted for non payment of rents, having their electricity cut for non payment of bills, and then you will have these same people out in the streets not caring much about your fear of infection.

     Also, i would like to point out that our emergency services, Fire fighters, Ambulance Drivers, Nurses, Doctors, Police Officers and such are all equally at risk and so will be the Army.

     So frankly, she may actually have issues clamping down hard on people who will venture out and about and if only for finding some food when they run out.
     • bill 5.1.1

       17 March 2020 at 11:06 am

       I'm on board with your hopes there Sabine. But I suspect the main focus will be on large economic players and tweaking broad economic indicators, with only a few inconsequential measures being announced that might positively impact real people in everyday real life.

       In other words, I fully expect notions of financial economy to trump human economy and for there to be some ideological reliance on trickle down. I'd like to be wrong.
       • Sabine 5.1.1.1

         17 March 2020 at 11:09 am

         that is what i expect, but then i also expect sick people out and about, i expect a rise in crime with people breaking in and such in order to survive.

         The lady has a choice to make, prop the economy up by giving people money that will spend it to survive, or go feral and only prop her ilk up and watch rioting break out in a few weeks.

         her choice, and i hope she does have that brain, that kindness and that gentlerness that people have been raving about.

         Because if she does not, this is going feral very quickly. People don't take kindly to government sanctioned starvation.
     • RedLogix 5.1.2

       17 March 2020 at 11:24 am

       All those suggestions seem reasonable and doable. Essentially we hit a giant PAUSE button on the wider economy and then go to some form of Emergency UBI to keep core services running, and people in place so that we can recover when the virus finally burns out.

       It nothing new really, just a modified version of wartime conditions where govt's involvement in the economy greatly expands to ensure collective survival. The difficulty in the Western world is that most of us were not alive and do not remember the last time this happened to us in WW2, so there may be pushback and irrational behaviour. It will be interesting to see what happens.
6. Adam Ash 6

   17 March 2020 at 10:25 am

   Great news, kinda. We are now testing people as they LEAVE New Zealand to go to the Pacific Islands.

   WHY AREN'T WE DOING THE SAME TESTING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE ARRIVING HERE???

   Travellers to Pacific Islands to undergo health check at Auckland Airport
   • Psycho Milt 6.1

     17 March 2020 at 12:33 pm

     WHY AREN'T WE DOING THE SAME TESTING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE ARRIVING HERE???

     1. The relative numbers of tests involved.

     2. Pacific Islands' much lower capacity to deal with an outbreak.
7. Adam Ash 7

   17 March 2020 at 10:36 am

   Its worth repeating, to put the lie to the official line that we don't need to test people without symptoms…

   People without symptoms have been found to have higher virus loads than those with symptoms, meaning these unidentifiable carriers are more likely to spread the virus than those showing symptoms.

   This is why we should be testing as much as we can.

   Infected people without symptoms might be driving the spread of coronavirus more than we realized

   There can only be one response to this knowledge: SHUT THE GATE. NOW.
   • bill 7.1

     17 March 2020 at 10:59 am

     The gate needed to be closed before the spread of coronavirus reached NZ. It's here, and if WHO and others are to be believed, most of us will contract it over coming weeks and months.

     Widespread testing would be a sensible move. Question is whether the capacity exists to execute such an exercise. Obviously, given carriers can be asymptomatic, any testing would have to be random and geared more at understanding patterns of spread etc, (with appropriate broad measures taken or recommendations made in response to emerging patterns of infection) – rather than testing geared towards isolating known or identifiable individuals.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       17 March 2020 at 12:02 pm

       i would take it as the Germans did.

       60 – 70 % will get it. Many will die. And there will not be enough hospital beds for all.

       or as Governor Cuomo said about NY

       He expects everyone to have been exposed to it and to get ill of it one a time, so no point in testing, but put all efforts into containment via isolation and triage those that arrive at hospitals.

       Testing hopefully our Government looks at Germany and South Korea and their drive through testing.

       But i believe that most of us have already been exposed one way or another. It has had at least since last year November to make the rounds.

       And if the government could finally roll out plans that allow us to lowly tax paying citizen / worker / drones/ expendables to 'mitigate' this event, more people might be staying home. But so long as people have bills to pay people will go to work.
   • alwyn 7.2

     17 March 2020 at 11:05 am

     That is what the Director-General of the WHO was saying yesterday in his briefing introduction.

     "But the most effective way to prevent infections and save lives is breaking the chains of transmission. And to do that, you must test and isolate.

     You cannot fight a fire blindfolded. And we cannot stop this pandemic if we don’t know who is infected.

     We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test.

     Test every suspected case."

     And what are we doing? There seems to be more interest in deciding that testing is not required than in facilitating it. I haven't seen anything indicating that it is a complicated or expensive process to carry out a test. In the same time as New Zealand has done 338 tests South Korea has done about 250,000. Sure, South Korea is a larger country. However if we measure the tests per million people they are doing about 70 times as many.

     https://ourworldindata.org/covid-testing

     Why are we so slow in this matter?
     • RedLogix 7.2.1

       17 March 2020 at 11:29 am

       Part of the problem was that just weeks ago WHO was giving very mixed messages, telling us not to shut down global travel and so on. For many weeks Tedros seems to have been more concerned to not embarrass his Chinese friends than to give clear unambiguous guidelines.
       • Sabine 7.2.1.1

         17 March 2020 at 11:52 am

         part of the problem is that people watched China weld its citizens into apartment blocks and believed that this will not impact them, cause bugger supply chains, bugger people travelling, bugger this and bugger that. .

         nothing to do with anything. The US is not in the predicament it is because of WHO but because of the shitstain in office who refused to acknowledge the issue since at the very least Jan 22nd when the first person was officially diagnosed in the US.

         And we are in this predicament because like the US we did fuck all for the longest of time, in essence preventing people from preparing/saving/building food stocks up, putting family emergency plans into place and so on and so forth.

         At some stage people have to either believe their own eyes, or they will continue to eat the shit that others shovel down their throats.
         • RedLogix 7.2.1.1.1

           17 March 2020 at 12:02 pm

           We've watched Western govts everywhere take far too long to respond to this threat. And honestly while Trump has made an art form of incompetency, I do think given the highly fractious and deeply dysfunctional state of US politics, expecting any US President to have acted effectively is optimistic to say the least.

           We do enjoy shitting on Trump at every possible chance, and he certainly invites it … but he doesn't exist in a vacuum. The entire US political system from top to bottom has been sliding toward this febrile condition for decades.

           part of the problem is that people watched China weld its citizens into apartment blocks and believed that this will not impact them, cause bugger supply chains, bugger people travelling, bugger this and bugger that.

           And yes, that is a fair point. I personally still believe the real death toll in Wuhan is ten times bigger than the CCP has admitted to, but we will always lack solid evidence for this. Much of it was literally cremated.
           • Sabine 7.2.1.1.1.1

             17 March 2020 at 12:54 pm

             there is one thing you are right about

             The shitstain is because people wanted him to be. Otherwise he would be right now holed up in his tower refusing to meet with people.

             the shitstain is because a political party lets him be. Otherwise they would have 25th him, demanded he resign over any of his many 'conflicts of interests'.

             the shitstain is because the conservative class the world over is in essence no more and no less then the shitstain, Mr. Branson from Virgin this and that – known tax evader, known sucker of the government tit, who expects his workers to survive without wages, while at the same time demanding the same workers bail him and his Air Company out.

             the shitstain is the result of 40 + years of vilifying the working class and elevating the idiocracy that modern conservatism needs to hide behind anti abortion, anti union, anti education, anti science and such.

             the shitstain is because people wanted it. because it was easier for them to listen to lies and inuendo rather then opening their eyes and see how bad they are really doing.

             As for China, China did what it believed it had to do, it did so very publicly, and i see no reason to engage in conspiracy theories when I can watch the current shitshow life online.
         • Poission 7.2.1.1.2

           17 March 2020 at 12:26 pm

           Trump rejected the so called academic advice (also WHO)on travel bans from China in January,and implemented one anyway,

           https://twitter.com/ProfMJCleveland/status/1239399258689806336
     • McFlock 7.2.2

       17 March 2020 at 2:15 pm

       Are we not testing every suspected case?

       As in clinically suspected, not pandemic anxiety?

       NZ:

       • 8 confirmed cases
       • 2 probable cases
       • 514 negative tests

       We have a positive test ratio of ~1% of all tests we conduct in people most likely to have it. 99% of tests are negative.
   • SPC 7.3

     17 March 2020 at 11:50 am

     Well at the moment. there is a policy of banning public gatherings because there might be public spread, but not closing schools because there is no known public spread.

     (NOTE The UK is going to have a lockdown without closing schools).

     An apparent absurdity.

     Why?

     (UK is still operating a public immunity by infection policy – allowing school children to spread to parents so they can be home together when they all get it – but do not want you to know this. The lockdown they now have will only slow transfer between young and more active adults without children. They of course expect those over over 70 to totally isolate for a year or so).

     The answer might be

     They just want to allow parents to go to work while there is no known community spread – children are themselves not at risk, and they will only operate the lockdown, including schools, when community spread is known (beyond identification and targeted isolation) and impacting on the health system – acting to prevent cases overwhelming it.

     I think testing locals with symptoms would mostly be pointless (99/100 or more have something else) – the ill will isolate anyhow. It is those without symptoms who would be spreading. It's more about obtaining a cross sample of test results from hotel, tourism, hospitality, sports workers etc to have knowledge if the young and active are spreading under the radar, or not?
8. joe90 8

   17 March 2020 at 12:54 pm

   thread

   https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1239134892975427586

   “In the meantime, I advise top policymakers here in Korea and elsewhere to make data-informed mitigation at a national scale in a highly effective manner.”

   “When each county misses the golden time, – Washington, London, and Rome have all missed it and they are paying the terrible price – this C19 thing is rapidly moving…

   “… to hit the most vulnerable group of people, including the elderly and those with the existing medical conditions.”

   “The golden time”. That is perfect.

   The golden time for wide scale social distancing is before you have a crisis. If you are reacting

   To the crisis you are already too late.

   Those who are sick were infected 2-3 weeks ago. They are a lagging indicator for exponentially increasing infections THAT HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1239134892975427586.html
9. Matiri. 9

   17 March 2020 at 1:10 pm

   Jonathan Pie nails it.
   • Matiri. 9.1

     17 March 2020 at 1:28 pm

     Sorry wrong link above. This is the right one.
10. Andre 10

    17 March 2020 at 1:16 pm

    Since some of our more conspiracy-minded regulars are not currently with us, I'll share this little gem to ensure everyone's eye-roll muscles are kept well-exercised.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/keri-hilson-5g-did-not-cause-coronavirus_n_5e6f8ba7c5b6dda30fce0348
    • Alice Tectonite 10.1

      17 March 2020 at 1:51 pm

      Out stocking up on trolley loads of tinfoil? After all, panic buying is taking many forms…

      Apparently it's a fact that if you wear a tinfoil hat 5G doesn't fry your brain.*

      (* also works without the tinfoil hat)
      • Andre 10.1.1

        17 March 2020 at 2:48 pm

        I always wonder how they get online if they're so worried about electromagnetic waves. I kinda picture them all dollied up in a Faraday suit with their computers in steel boxes with lead glass windows for them to see the monitor. They wouldn't use phones, surely?
        • Alice Tectonite 10.1.1.1

          17 March 2020 at 3:24 pm

          Phones? You'd think not given they can be tracked & monitored by the govt, in addition to the electromagnetic radiation factor. Maybe it's only 5G, 3G & 4G might be fine, cause, you know, whatever.

          Lead glass makes me think of the old stupidly heavy CRT monitors. Almost caused a H&S incident once trying to lift a large one (definitely not a one person lift). Seriously heavyweight stuff reducing EM radiation …
      • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.2

        17 March 2020 at 3:33 pm

        I'm undecided, but have stocked up on tinfoil to address more pressing problems

        https://www.newcoldwar.org/5g-cell-phone-radiation-how-the-telecom-companies-are-losing-the-battle-to-impose-5g-against-the-will-of-the-people/
11. AB 11

    17 March 2020 at 1:31 pm

    Some thoughts on where and to whom helicopter money should be distributed during a pandemic. The advice is "go big now or go home" .
12. Muttonbird 12

    17 March 2020 at 3:02 pm

    There's been some calls to close schools but I worry about the effect on the kids.

    Hipkins is right that it is the safest place for them right now, particularly mentally.

    Hundreds of thousands of households have been placed under enormous pressure overnight and this has a big impact on the children. School is the one place they can be which has routines and stability.

    To force them all home into a charged, uncertain and stressful environment will be very damaging for them.

    I hope officials bear this in mind when making decisions.
    • mauī 12.1

      17 March 2020 at 5:55 pm

      The wonderful Hong Kong closed all it's schools when it had less confirmed cases than NZ currently has. Time is ticking…
      • Muttonbird 12.1.1

        17 March 2020 at 6:18 pm

        Hong Kong also had rioting in the streets not long ago. Not the picture of a contented nation right now.

        School Principals know the importance of schooling as a stable environment in the face of political hysteria and panicked mismanagement.

        I think it underlines the importance … of taking a really sensible and measured and carefully-considered approach to what is happening so we’re not panicking each other into over-reacting.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/03/coronavirus-principals-frustrated-with-parents-refusing-to-send-their-children-to-school.html
        • mauī 12.1.1.1

          17 March 2020 at 6:30 pm

          Hong Kong has done an excellent job of containment.

          Principals know F all about public health, however this man does:

          "University of Otago public health professor Michael Baker said it was time to act to ensure the virus didn't take hold in the community.

          "Now is the time for maximum effort. We really need to maximise social distancing [with] school closures and potentially stopping public transport." "

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120330254/coronavirus-time-to-increase-social-distancing-and-close-schools-expert-says
          • Muttonbird 12.1.1.1.1

            17 March 2020 at 6:37 pm

            New Zealand isn't Hong Kong or Singapore and I hope it never will be.

            Each public health expert will love their day in the sun right now. But has he spoken to the education or mental health experts across the hall?
            • mauī 12.1.1.1.1.1

              17 March 2020 at 7:38 pm

              Kind of like the mines rescue expert deferring to the healthy and safety advisor / worksafe, or the experienced building engineer deferring to the christchurch council.
              • Muttonbird …

                17 March 2020 at 8:01 pm

                Tragically 29 miners died at Pike River. 115 people lost their lives in the CTV building collapse. 14 people at Cave Creek. 257 on Erebus…

                …and 500 New Zealanders die from flu every single year.
    • weka 12.2

      17 March 2020 at 6:43 pm

      I think it's good that the govt is pacing this, and agree that the changes are big and people need time to adjust. Once CV is in the community, then they will need to close schools, because kid collectives are basically incubators.
      • I Feel Love 12.2.1

        17 March 2020 at 10:34 pm

        The kids at my kids school are counting the day til school is closed, holidays coming up too.
13. Muttonbird 13

    17 March 2020 at 4:12 pm

    Keeping your sniffles secret in a post-pandemic world.

    Found myself heading to the pharmacy on the weekend for some lozenges. Had anxiety that the simple action of buying cold relief medicine would label me a risk to society.

    Reality is if I get a cold now my family loses thousands of dollars.

    What kind of world do we live in?
    • weka 13.1

      17 March 2020 at 6:45 pm

      a bloody strange one and overnight. I haven't followed today's announcement, is there anything there that will help your family?
    • BM 13.2

      17 March 2020 at 7:36 pm

      We got some of this a while back, I do recommend getting some before it's all gone

      Put it on your hands in the morning and you've got protection for 24 hours, far superior to hand sanitizer.

      https://zoono.co.nz/collections/home
      • weka 13.2.1

        17 March 2020 at 10:54 pm

        Here comes the BUT…

        I am not sure what evidence they have that their products will actually be that effective when people actually use them for real. Have they actually tested if the hand sanitiser stays on all day, even when people have been properly washing their hands several times a day? Have they actually tested if the surfaces really can stay “germ-free” when those surfaces aren’t in a lab but are in people’s actual homes and people are going about their actual lives in and around them?

        One of the concerns I have when people rush to buy products like this is that they may end up with a false sense of security and think they are more protected than they actually are, and then end up doing things that put them at higher risk of infection.

        In other words, don’t feel like you are putting your family at risk by not buying these products. There are plenty of cheaper options that we definitely know work in the real world.

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/07-03-2020/how-to-get-rid-of-covid-19-from-surfaces-the-right-way/

        Don't really have anything to say about it other than please don't rely on it if you are in contact with vulnerable people.
14. Fireblade 14

    17 March 2020 at 4:33 pm

    Three new Covid-19 cases diagnosed in NZ today.

    "Two of the new cases are in a Wellington family who recently returned from the United States, and the third is a Dunedin man who had recently travelled to Germany".

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/03/coronavirus-3-new-covid-19-cases-in-new-zealand.html
    • Alice Tectonite 14.1

      17 March 2020 at 4:38 pm

      Also first tourist detained & deported for having no self isolation plans

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120344713/coronavirus-tourist-to-be-deported-from-nz-for-having-no-plans-to-selfisolate
      • weka 14.1.1

        17 March 2020 at 6:48 pm

        Good work immigration and police.
15. Philip Ferguson 15

    17 March 2020 at 6:36 pm

    In Britain, feminists are facing being purged from the Labour Party. Here, Nick Rogers, chair of Tottenham constituency LP in London writes about what is happening and the need to defend the feminists facing purging.

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/british-labour-party-leaders-pledge-purge-of-feminists/
16. Muttonbird 16

    17 March 2020 at 6:49 pm

    Filming of Avatar also abandoned. That's every US studio now suspending operations in this country for the foreseeable future.

    Local productions also either closed or under pressure to close.

    That's probably about 3000 – 4000 contract workers instantly without work or any benefits. Often they are given less than 12 hours notice and are effectively sacked by memo.

    All because of an over-reaction to the flu…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120337742/coronavirus-avatar-filming-takes-hiatus-due-to-virus-fears
    • Gabby 16.1

      17 March 2020 at 7:03 pm

      Is there 'flu about as well?
      • Muttonbird 16.1.1

        17 March 2020 at 7:04 pm

        Yeah, haven't you heard, Gobby?
    • I Feel Love 16.2

      17 March 2020 at 10:36 pm

      Pity they don't have a strong union or better work conditions, I guess that's why we get the work huh? The Americans are unionised to fuck in their film industry.

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