Open mike 18/04/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 18th, 2023 - 127 comments
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127 comments on “Open mike 18/04/2023 ”

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  1. tsmithfield 1
    18 April 2023 at 7:28 am

    According to Kerre Woodham, the homelessness problem is far worse under Labour than it was under National. And as Woodham points out, Labour made such a song and dance about sorting this out before being elected five years or so ago.

    From the article:

    Now we've got people in emergency accommodation for up to two years, substandard emergency accommodation where violence is a part of life.

    Intimidation is a part of life. Gang activity is a part of life. It is no place for children or families. Homelessness became a key platform when Labour was on the campaign trail in 2017. Now we have one of the highest levels of homelessness in the OECD……

    Just about everything they have done to improve the lot of people, they say they care the most for, has blown up in their faces. I have absolutely no doubt they care. They just haven't got a clue how to fix it, despite spending years in opposition, despite railing against a Government that they said was failing, they had the answers, vote for us, we'll fix it.

    They have made it immeasurably worse.

    It is easy to point out a problem. But much harder to find a solution, as Labour has discovered.

    I agree that putting people in motels is at least putting a roof over their heads. But, it creates a terrible environment to bring up kids, and puts people at considerable danger. People are spending far far too long in that type of temporary accommodation. And the consequences are likely to be felt for generations to come.

    • Peter 1.1
      18 April 2023 at 8:36 am

      It just could be that the homelessness problem is worse under Labour from Kerre Woodham’s perspective because she and her colleagues didn’t think it was much of a problem before. Like the housing crisis of pre-2018.

      They weren’t spending any energy on those situations, certainly not making incessant noises about them.

      After the election with Nat/Act on the Treasury benches she and her workmates will be in the mode of “They’ve been left with massive problems,” and defending a lack of progress in solving the situations.

      • tsmithfield 1.1.1
        18 April 2023 at 9:01 am

        It just could be that the homelessness problem is worse under Labour from Kerre Woodham’s perspective because she and her colleagues didn’t think it was much of a problem before.

        But Labour certainly identified the problem, and made it a major part of their election platform as I recall. So, the lack of progress in five years is inexcusable. It sits right up there with 100000 houses IMO.

        And, like Woodham, I am of the view that some of Labour's policies have actually made the problem worse. For instance, making it progressively less attractive to be a landlord.

        • mikesh 1.1.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 9:27 am

          And, like Woodham, I am of the view that some of Labour's policies have actually made the problem worse. For instance, making it progressively less attractive to be a landlord.

          Having fewer landlords would reduce the demand for properties, and thereby alleviate the problems faced by first home buyers. So, making the market less attractive for prospective landlords to invest in would, I think, be rather a good thing.

          • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 9:57 am

            More misinformation! There’s a disconnect between the traditional housing & rental market and Emergency/Transitional Housing provided by the State. People from State Housing will almost never go through the neoliberal wet dream transition of renting a nice house in a good area and then buying & owning their own first home – they are permanently stuck in Struggle Street in the Precariat. You can drop that silly urban myth right now and forever.

            • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1.1.1
              18 April 2023 at 10:17 am

              See my answer to Mikesh below. It is not just about the total amount of housing available. It is about how people are distributed around that housing.

              So, I think the effect of the government's policy of toughening things up for landlords is actually reducing the average number of people in houses. Thus, creating a shortage overall.

              In the end, if average people are struggling to rent a house due to this effect, then it ends up becoming the government’s problem.

              • Incognito …
                18 April 2023 at 10:27 am

                Have a nice day.

              • lprent …
                18 April 2023 at 12:39 pm

                So, I think the effect of the government's policy of toughening things up for landlords is actually reducing the average number of people in houses. Thus, creating a shortage overall.

                Perhaps you should look at the reasons why formation of state housing was required back in the 1906 under Seddon, and then by Labour in the 1930s.

                Landlords stacking massive numbers of people into damp, cold, mouldy, overcrowded, and unmaintained properties to increase their revenue yield was guaranteed to increase the probability of disease, the flourishing of pandemics, and the destitution of people and families as they become unable to earn a living.

                It was then, and it still is now. It isn’t hard to find these kinds of properties now, still with a shift beds, rising damp, and lack of maintenance. Offhand I can think of several people or families that I know in exactly that situation.

                All of these resulting conditions carry penalty costs for the rest of society – who are not receiving revenues from the rentals because the inadequete tax take from landlords.

                It is reasonable for the government to place requirements on landlords about the standards required in rental accommodation, since all of the downsides from poor quality overcrowded accommodation will eventually wind up on them and on the hands of taxpayers. It increases costs and diminishes the economy of the whole of NZ to have people housed poorly.

                Of course, I wouldn't be adverse to changing the laws for landlords. Make dereliction of duty as a landlord a criminal offence. My preferred sentence would be make any owner or property agent live in similar unreconstructed accommodation without any improvements and no maintenance at the same level of crowding for several years with an ankle bracelet on.

                I'd point out that I have been a landlord for quite a few years, ridiculously made considerable un-taxed capital gain on it and no other taxable profit. I would have welcomed living in my rental – it was where I had lived for decades before my partner dragged me off to her similar apartment to help pay her mortgage.

                Evidently I just have higher expectations about the duties of a landlords.

                • tsmithfield …
                  18 April 2023 at 1:20 pm

                  I don't have a problem with requiring landlords to meet minimum standards for liveability. However, I expect landlords would seek to recover their costs through increased rent.

                  I was thinking more about factors such as removing interest deductability. All other businesses are able claim their interest costs as an expense. So, why shouldn't landlords?

                  And, sure, you have likely incurred a strong tax free gain. But, what of landlords who have purchased at the top of the market and now have incurred substantial captial losses?

                  • mikesh …
                    18 April 2023 at 7:07 pm

                    I was thinking more about factors such as removing interest deductability. All other businesses are able claim their interest costs as an expense. So, why shouldn't landlords?

                    And, sure, you have likely incurred a strong tax free gain. But, what of landlords who have purchased at the top of the market and now have incurred substantial captial losses?

                    I'd be more inclined to ask why should these "other businesses" be able to claim interest as deductible expense. As for those landlords who invested at the top of the market surely it would have been better if they had not invested in the first place.

                    TOP seems to have the best take on this problem. They would apparently insist on a 100% deposit when making a property investment. This would seem to take mortgage interest out of the picture altogether.

          • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1.2
            18 April 2023 at 10:06 am

            Having fewer landlords would reduce the demand for properties, and thereby alleviate the problems faced by first home buyers. So, making the market less attractive for prospective landlords to invest in would, I think, be rather a good thing.

            That logic doesn't work. It actually makes the problem a lot worse. Here is why:

            Many first home buyers are often young people who may have been living at home with their parents, or out flatting. In either situation, they are often comfortably housed, but open to opportunities to buy their own homes, if they are able to, and the opportunity comes up. Also, they often don't have kids, so may be only one or two people.

            On the other hand, a landlord may be renting to a family of say five or six. They get sick of the government rules. So the landlord evicts the tenant as soon as possible so the place can be done up to sell, and not have the problem of organising open homes around tenants. Thus, a family is displaced before the house is even sold.

            Then, the first home buyer/s of one or two people takes the opportunity to purchase that home.

            The net result is that a large family might be out looking for a new home before the landlord even sells the home they were living in. And, a large family is replaced with first home buyers comprising one or two people. And the first home buyers were previously comfortably housed, so not part of the problem.

            When that effect is multiplied across the whole nation it is easy to understand why the government's plan is nuts.

            • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.2.1
              18 April 2023 at 10:39 am

              I believe there are advantages for land lords who build new rentals, surely that's a win win instead if landlords hovering up the cheaper existing houses

            • mikesh 1.1.1.1.2.2
              18 April 2023 at 7:22 pm

              There are obviously two classes of renters: those who rent because they are unable to obtain a place of their own, and those who rent because they, for whatever reason, prefer to rent. The former are at a disadvantage when they have to compete in the market against prospective landlords who have interest deductibility and they don't.

              • mikesh …
                18 April 2023 at 10:16 pm

                PS: This would seem to have been Grant Robertson's purpose in introducing the measure; he wanted to create a level playing field in respect of the purchase of the property.

    • AB 1.2
      18 April 2023 at 9:11 am

      Now we have one of the highest levels of homelessness in the OECD … They have made it immeasurably worse

      Umm – spot the contradiction in Kerre Woodham's opining. She doesn't even know the meaning of the words she uses. She gives a measure for something supposedly immeasurable and then uses a comparative 'worse' without using a measure that compares the same data series over time or looking at similar data series from elsewhere or considering external factors like Covid or inflation.

      You lost me at "according to Kerre Woodham", though I forced down the rising tide of sick and read on a bit. What about "according to a random ZB/Herald propagandist" or "according to a dead seagull on the side of SH1 just south of Kaikoura"?

      • tsmithfield 1.2.1
        18 April 2023 at 9:16 am

        Glad you avoided throwing up.

        If we get past the person who gave the opinion (who I find to be fairly middle of the road politically), and the international comparisons, there is not much argument about the scale of the problem, I don't think. And that it appears to be a lot worse now than when Labour came into power.

        So, I think my comments are valid. What the government has been doing doesn't seem to be working.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 10:12 am

          Kerre, "Middle of the road" Lol You surpriseare further right than I even supposed.

          She is worse than Duplicity Allen for bile. imo

          Kerre is so Blue she would choke saying one pleasant thing about Labour.

          Some have history of "parrot pieces" and she is a prime example. and thank you Incognito.

          • Incognito 1.2.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 10:19 am

            Kerre Woodham is National’s Liz Gunn cheeky

          • tsmithfield 1.2.1.1.2
            18 April 2023 at 10:32 am

            “Kerre is so Blue she would choke saying one pleasant thing about Labour.”

            There was this backhanded compliment.

            • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1.2.1
              18 April 2023 at 10:42 am

              Made it through 2 paragraphs before nearly choking on my apple, she sound unhinged

            • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1.2.2
              18 April 2023 at 4:40 pm

              That from Kerre Woodham is just a "You may as well vote Nat as Lab is the same!!" Not!!!! Choose better sources of info.

          • tsmithfield 1.2.1.1.3
            18 April 2023 at 11:05 am

            Lol You surpriseare further right than I even supposed.

            As I have said before, I am right wing economically, but left wing when it comes to social concerns. There are quite a few of us around like that smiley.

            • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1.3.1
              18 April 2023 at 4:43 pm

              OK…. so your heart says help people to step up, but your head says "Don't spend the money". You must get conflicted.devil

            • Gabby 1.2.1.1.3.2
              18 April 2023 at 6:39 pm

              Really? How does that work?

              • tsmithfield …
                18 April 2023 at 6:50 pm

                You must get conflicted.

                Really? How does that work?

                Personally, I am of the view that efficient and effective management of financial resources is one of the keys to solving the social problems.

                So, for instance, I would rather put money into nurses than into spin doctors in our hospitals.

                And, being on the boards of several trusts myself, good financial management is key to being able to continue to provide services to those in need in our communities.

                • Shanreagh …
                  18 April 2023 at 7:41 pm

                  Yes Tsmithfield that is clear. Good financial management is universal it is not something belonging to the left or right. It is one of the keys to being able to do more with what we have.

                  I worked in a health organisation where our operational funds to run ourselves were top-sliced from the millions we were given to allocate for public health. This did not mean we ran silly giving ourselves all sorts of baubles and neither did we penny pinched so far that it would have prevented us from having good people in their fields working for us.

                  It did impose a discipline to get bangs for bucks, to think small where we could as that would add up etc.

                  If health orgs ran themselves better financially then there would be more money to spend on items that matter including in some communities the exceedingly cost effective operation to insert grommets for glue ear in young children.

                  I am a little wary of the argument though about comms staff/nurses though. Much of the past spend on comms staff was against the back drop of Covid when good comms was essential. When crunching numbers in mergers etc unitl final numbers are known we do have to treat staff carefully and humanely and that includes comms staff. It is not their fault they applied for and got a job in an orgainsation tat was subsequently merged.

                  I see the article linked by Tsmithfield as yet again moaning about

                  a) something they know nothing about (optimum numbers in an organisation such as Te Whatu Ora)

                  b) moaning about people who by their contracts and work environments ie public servants are not able to go public and say….'hey this might not be quite right etc.

                  Going after Comms staff is an easy target, especially from the right. Such a pattern that I wonder if anyone ever wonders 'Haven't we done this line before, like 30 years ago, and did it work?' To which the answers would be 'yes' and 'no'.

        • Peter 1.2.1.2
          18 April 2023 at 10:51 am

          "It appears to be a lot worse now than when Labour came into power?"

          'Bad' and 'worse' are like beauty and all appearances, in the eyes of the beholder and dependent on individual circumstances. The same as "doesn't seem to be working."

          A couple in our family would say things are considerably better and did work.

          This morning I read on some overseas thing about the Fox situation in the US. A commentator said (generalisation) that media like people to be aggrieved, like there to be controversy, like people to be pissed off. That churns up business for them. Achieving that is an aim and anything in doing that is valid. Like Fox did with ruthlessly perpetrating lies to generate business.

          That's the business of the likes of Woodham and her mates on her radio station. They would argue one day that something was black two days later argue it was white and three days after say it was red. Their audiences harvest the crap and disperse it further.

    • Incognito 1.3
      18 April 2023 at 9:25 am

      "After nine years, even Paula Bennett now admits National got it wrong but, truth is, they won't change," says Mr Twyford.

      Ms Bennett told The AM Show she couldn't give "actual numbers" on how the Government's emergency housing build was going, because she "didn't know we were going to talk about it this morning. I haven't looked at it for about a year."

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/07/nz-s-homelessness-the-worst-in-oecd-by-far.html [article date: 21 July 2017]

      Nothing has changed with National and they still haven’t got a clue, which they’re trying to hide as desperate as they are to get their fingers on the controls again.

      Woodham’s partisan rant was largely fact-free, of course. She and her employer are disinformation projects. Let’s have a look at some real data, shall we?

      The number of Traditional Transitional Housing Places available in February 2023: 5,824

      Net difference from June 2017: +4,701

      https://www.hud.govt.nz/stats-and-insights/the-government-housing-dashboard/transitional-housing/#tabset

      So, this Government is doing something and making slow progress, which is infinitely better than the socio-economic destruction wrecked upon NZ by National. Anybody who will vote for NACT is fooling themselves and others but we live in a free democratic country and we are allowed (and entitled!) to make personal choices that are bad for us and for others. The election of Wayne Brown is a textbook example and should serve as a strong warning but the tribal lights are too bright for some.

      • Anne 1.3.1
        18 April 2023 at 9:38 am

        Someone can correct me if I have got it wrong, but didn't the Nats alter the criteria around figures for beneficiaries to make them look less than they really were? I don't recall the details but they likely made a difference to the number of homeless recorded as well.

        • Incognito 1.3.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 10:30 am

          I can’t remember – was it not hospital waiting lists?

          As soon as Nats open a spreadsheet the numbers start changing.

          • Anne 1.3.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 10:36 am

            Both?

            My brain is showing signs of wear and tear due to longevity, but I seem to remember they stopped including those who were parked in motels as being 'homeless'. Something like that?

    • weka 1.4
      18 April 2023 at 10:43 am

      I agree that putting people in motels is at least putting a roof over their heads. But, it creates a terrible environment to bring up kids, and puts people at considerable danger. People are spending far far too long in that type of temporary accommodation. And the consequences are likely to be felt for generations to come.

      It's not the motels that are the problem, it's the culture and the poverty. That could be changed without having to move everyone out within a certain timeframe.

      Two years is a long lease in some parts of the country. There's no good reason why living in a motel couldn't be a good option for a few years while other housing is sorted, other than the real problems aren't being addressed.

      • Anne 1.4.1
        18 April 2023 at 1:04 pm

        That is what used to happen back in the 50s and 60s. They called them transit camps and every city had them. They were small wooden units and, from memory, the average time spent in them was six or so months. This was at a time when state houses were being built on steroids.

        Mt elder sister and her husband lived in one as newly married with a baby coming, and I loved to stay with them because it was next door to the Auckland Zoo.

    • Corey 1.5
      18 April 2023 at 6:25 pm

      Homelessness and housing has absolutely gotten worse under this government, but it would be exactly the same under National.

      National and Labour are almost identical on housing with only slight tweaks separating them, they both adhere to a failed economic policy that is only good at destroying and selling things not building things.

      Nz from the 1930s til the 1980s was able to build more state houses, with 1/5 of the population and worse technology.

      we are told we can't look back at things that actually worked and have to keep trialling a failed experiment that has seen our living standards, education systems, health systems were once the best in the world and our wages once were nearly at parity with Australia.

      The sixth labour govt has an absolutely appalling record on housing, as did the fifth national and indeed the fifth labour govts.

      Both parties adhere to a failed economic belief where the govt should do as little as possible, leave it to the private sector, high immigration rates, rely increasingly in expensive NGOs, believe state housing stock should stay at 3% of total housing stock instead of above 5% prior to the experiment, both employ armies of consultants, advisors etc who all get a bit of the pie and make housing policies more and more expensive and deliver less and less results.

      We have thousands and thousands of kiwis living in motels and the govts answer is more of the same.

      We are experiencing poverty,cost of living, housing crises at rates we haven't seen since the great depression in some parts of this country and the answer is more of the same and focusing on social policies to distract.

      What we are seeing in housing and poverty is class warfare and our almost exclusively upper middle class labour party blocks it's ears much like the liberal/united party during the great depression and when the shit really hits the fan labour will likely go the way of liberal/united.

  2. bwaghorn 2
    18 April 2023 at 7:41 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131787113/who-owns-the-water-mori-do

    I'd say to jt, that pakeha don't own/control water, government does/and should, seems to be plenty of Maori in government at the moment so stop playing the race card,gtfu, division is a dangerous path.

    • Res Publica 2.1
      18 April 2023 at 8:19 am

      Even if we accept that the crown owns the water as you suggest, then as a signatory to the Treaty of Waitangi wouldn't it be obliged to implement some kind of co-governance arrangement?

      Whichever way you slice it, the status quo on water is untenable (and is literally killing people). And the only way to fairly implement reform in a way that honours the actually-legally-binding document the government signed is to give Maori some kind of say in what happens.

      • bwaghorn 2.1.1
        18 April 2023 at 10:28 am

        As I said there's plenty of Maori in government, do they not have a say?

        I think the treaty is not fit for purpose any more, and needs a modern rethink.

        In any relationship where one party is the aggrieved partner, ones apologies and remediation is undertaken there comes a time for the other party to be forgiven,

        If that doesn't happen the parties cannot move forward as one.

        • Adrian 2.1.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 11:13 am

          Well fuck it, let's change the Magna Carta, and the US constitution, the Bible and just about anything else some bunch of dickheads doesn't like while we're at it.

          • bwaghorn 2.1.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 3:03 pm

            The US constitution that allows nutcase murderous loons to bare arms, and the Bible that has caused more misery and death than any other book !!! Might want to pick better documents there old mate.

        • Res Publica 2.1.1.2
          18 April 2023 at 11:20 am

          I think the treaty is not fit for purpose any more, and needs a modern rethink.

          Like declaring it a simple nullity like Justice Prendergast did in 1877?

          You can't sign an agreement then arbitrarily repudiate it because it's inconvenient. More so if you're a sovereign government.

          Also, you're making a bold assumption we all want to "move forward as one." if so, who's "one" are we moving forward as? Yours? Mine?

          • bwaghorn 2.1.1.2.1
            18 April 2023 at 3:00 pm

            Missed the bit about re imagined he did,

            Us as I was thinking , show me any country running to systems that works

            • Res Publica 2.1.1.2.1.1
              19 April 2023 at 9:56 am

              No political system is perfect bwaghorn, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to make ours more fair and more just.

              It reminds of a story I read about ancient Rome. They never updated the legal penalty for assault from a fine that was a lot of money when Rome was a small town populated by brigands and criminals, but was a pittance by the time the empire rolled around.

              So young nobles used to go entertain themselves by running around town punching randoms in the face, then throwing what was essentially small change at them.

              So yeah, the victim got their apology and restitution. But it was meaningless and nowhere near proportional to the hurt that had been done.

              In the same way, yeah some Iwi have had apologies and a couple of million dollars. But how does that stack up against 160 years of economic alienation, political powerlessness, racism, poverty, and the attempt to dismantle an entire culture?

    • Bearded Git 2.2
      18 April 2023 at 9:10 am

      Listen to Clive Geddis on Morning Report this morning. He gives a clear and unbiased view on the 50/50 split in the Affordable Water proposal.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018886525/political-parties-scrap-over-three-waters-rework

  3. Ad 3
    18 April 2023 at 9:56 am

    For those wondering why we don't have a new Ministry of Works or something similar, the answer is that temporary smaller government entities doing remarkably similar things have reinvented themselves into insoluble nationwide entities:

    Witness the latest:

    • Otakaro, set up to do a series of signature projects in Christchurch, is now as of yesterday a nationwide delivery agency for projects for the Crown, called Rau Paenga

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2304/S00222/rau-paenga-established-to-support-crown-infrastructure-delivery.htm

    • If one can recall Crown Fibre Holdings, which reinvented itself into Crown Infrastructure Partners and massively expanded during the pandemic as the conduit for the multi-billion NZUP rebuild projects
    • A few years earlier Hobsonville Land Company HLC became Houses Land Communities which is now absorbed into Kainga Ora as a simply massive delivery entity of land development
    • The there's Piritahi alliance, which is like a moon to the Kainga Ora Earth orbit
    • Then there’s Light Rail Limited; guaranteed that’s going to grow into a permanent entity delivering the tunnel and then light rail across the west and north of Auckland for at least three decades
    • We now have major temporary entities forming across local and central and regional government such as RiverLink in the Hutt Valley and the major new one being evolved for rebuilding the East Coast

    Generally, temporary and limited state entities are reinventing themselves into new purpose and nationwide scale, often overlapping. They create their own permanent existence.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    18 April 2023 at 10:04 am

    The knives are out for Elizabeth Kerekere from that hardy perennial, the “anonymous source”. Wonder how long it is before the Green factions start scrapping in public.

    • weka 4.1
      18 April 2023 at 10:24 am

      dunno about that, she looks like a bit of a loose unit and a liability for the party in election year. Hopefully the investigation will motivate her to pull her head in. I also hope she gets dropped down the final list.

      • weka 4.1.1
        18 April 2023 at 10:27 am

        I mean, ffs, going to the media?

        Kerekere stepped down from her Covid-19 portfolio, but was reportedly unhappy with how the matter was handled. At the time, Stuff reported that Kerekere had strongly complained internally about a statement issued by the Greens and threatened to go to the media with her side of the story.

        as far as I know she didn't apologise in a meaningful way about her texts.

        • Janice 4.1.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 10:57 am

          The Greens lost my support after the way KereKere behaved in the select committee hearing about the bill allowing people to change their sex on their birth certificate. Her and Deborah Russell should both have been asked to resign over their actions on that committee.

          • Incognito 4.1.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 11:07 am

            ACT lost a lot of support when Seymour started twerking. I’d suggest that Kerekere does a little Irish dance (aka Riverdance) and Green supporters will flock back to the Green Pastures in no time.

            • alwyn 4.1.1.1.1.1
              18 April 2023 at 12:57 pm

              "ACT lost a lot of support when Seymour started twerking".

              Really? Would you care to explain how you come to this conclusion which I assume means that they lost support when he was on the Dancing with the Stars TV program.

              That was broadcast between 29 April 2018 and 01 July 2018. Between the 2017 election and the end of April 2018 ACT averaged 0.4% in the polls. While it was on air they averaged 0.7% and in the rest of 2018 they averaged 0.5%. One could certainly argue that it actually improved during and after his appearance. Your proposal that theory lost a lot of support doesn't appear to have any support though.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2020_New_Zealand_general_election

              • Incognito …
                18 April 2023 at 1:12 pm

                Oh dear, you never seem to get my jokes. If you’d read my comment properly you’d have realised that nothing made sense what I wrote. It was not intended for you, obviously. Mind you, you’re undoubtedly in good company here on TS.

          • Francesca 4.1.1.1.2
            18 April 2023 at 11:29 am

            That was the beginning of my defection .Kerekere was incredibly disrespectful to submitters speaking in good faith , she behaved with hostility and disdain .I had no confidence that the public submissions would be taken on board.

            • left for dead 4.1.1.1.2.1
              18 April 2023 at 5:30 pm

              Yes,that sadden me too Francesca, I had to wonder which party she was representing for a moment.

              As weka states/hopes,down the list she should go,and I say,"work for respect" from party members.

          • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1.3
            18 April 2023 at 1:34 pm

            Yes that was very poor.

            Greens lost my support over the sex stupidity.

            Meanwhile the worthwhile gains that Shaw is getting on climate matters is being submerged by a policy that according to Greens out in the provinces (Nelson & Canterbury contacts) is not seen as important as the environmental concerns that many joined the party for.

            Just have to hope that Kerekere gets voted down the list. Also that investigations are carried out into other cases of alleged bullying.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300855691/green-party-sources-accuse-mp-elizabeth-kerekere-of-bullying

            • alwyn 4.1.1.1.3.1
              18 April 2023 at 3:08 pm

              There were, at least in the past, some limits on the degree to which the party list could be altered. Unfortunately I can't remember the details, and I don't know whether it still applies.

              It was either that the members couldn't move any candidate by more than 2 positions from their place on the initial list or that the party council couldn't make their final list order change the party member vote position by more than a couple of places. If it was the first than she can't be voted down very far. If it is the latter then anything goes.

              Sorry but it is just a vague memory of the rule. Does anyone in the party remember how it was supposed to work?

              • xy …
                18 April 2023 at 4:10 pm

                The membership vote which is coming up soon has no restrictions on placement – the initial delegate-ranked list has no impact on the membership vote except that the members can choose to vote using the delegate-ranked list instead of voting themselves if they like.

                A member assembly then selects the final list, which will be either the membership-voted list or the 'balanced' list based on applying balancing criteria, but nobody on the ifnal list can be moved more than 2 places than their position on the membership-voted list.

                • alwyn …
                  18 April 2023 at 6:20 pm

                  Thank you. It is the second, much more democratic option. Is that way they have the initial list. If you think it is OK it certainly makes it easier to vote.

                  I just remembered that there was a rule about the subject but I couldn't remember the way round it went.

          • Herodotus 4.1.1.1.4
            18 April 2023 at 7:44 pm

            As someone from a household that gave all their vote to the left, majority of votes to TG than Labour – Not sure that TG will this year receive any votes-So it is only a few votes not to worry. They abandoned their support over the last 5 years, over that time their was minimal creep (and that is being generous) in NZ's position in addressing climate change. The same govt that The Green party supported and accepted ministerial roles. NOW we get statements "The Green Party have told other parties to come to the table with faster, bolder climate action if they want their support at the election." Where were you over the last 5 years. Funny how an election focuses the mind on returning to your base values (???)and what is important. You WASTED 5 years all for a few babbles of office !!! and now you want action ??

            The last few weeks have displayed that The Greens are still in amateur mode, and to take time out to see why they deserve any votes other than their staunch Green supporters base – To me currently they do not deserve consideration.

            https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/03/19/its-not-enough-greens-lay-down-climate-change-election-challenge/

      • Res Publica 4.1.2
        18 April 2023 at 11:22 am

        She shouldn't have been as high on the list as she was to start with.

    • Terry 4.2
      18 April 2023 at 12:32 pm

      I’ve always been surprised that the more a group of people tell us they’re tolerant, and inclusive and stand up for people’s rights, the more they bully people.

      [Please fix the typo in your e-mail address, thanks – Incognito]

      • Incognito 4.2.1
        18 April 2023 at 12:38 pm

        Mod note

      • Shanreagh 4.2.2
        18 April 2023 at 1:58 pm

        Aaaaaaah taps side of nose knowingly.

        The people being bullied don't count as those to whom tolerance and inclusivity are needed.

        Also for some bullies in real life, and this probably explains the conduct at the Select Committe hearing, they are able to identify those who do not feel at ease, are overawed etc and home in on them unerringly.

        Just as most/many women can identify a fella in a dress as male at a 1000 paces there are bully-type people who can do pick out 'weaker' ones.

  5. Stan 5
    18 April 2023 at 10:33 am

    As a labour electorate and green party voter in the past, I hadn't really been aware of her. On hearing more about her behaviour, if she's listed at anything higher than number 20, greens have lost my vote.

  6. Incognito 6
    18 April 2023 at 11:56 am

    RNZ reached out to Twitter's general media email account, to which it received an auto-reply of a poo emoji.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/488136/rnz-considers-unliking-twitter-over-government-funded-label

    Was it bird shit or bat shit? That’s all I want to know. It could be dog shit, from the top-dog himself. At least, it wasn’t bull shit.

  7. Anker 7
    18 April 2023 at 12:18 pm

    Help needed ….. During the Posie Parker fortnight, someone posted on here a link that dispells the myth of trans vulnerability.

    I have done a bit of a search to no avail. Could someone re post it for me?

    Many thanks

      • Anker 7.1.1
        18 April 2023 at 2:22 pm

        Thanks ARkie. Always good to read what is being said about gender critical feminists.

        The gender critical movement is a loose international affiliation of people and groups who promote far-right ideas that have gained a degree of centrist respectability through their purported defense of women. The movement alleges that people cannot determine their own sex or gender, and that the genitalia observed by doctors at birth are the final determinants of biological sex as well as the permanent markers of gender belonging.

        Do you agree with this? See most of the gender critical women I know are on the left, what ever that means nowadays.

        • arkie 7.1.1.1
          18 April 2023 at 3:06 pm

          One can identify as or consider oneself to be 'on the left' while having some 'far-right ideas'.

          • Incognito 7.1.1.1.1
            18 April 2023 at 3:25 pm

            Bingo!

          • Anker 7.1.1.1.2
            18 April 2023 at 3:55 pm

            GEniune question Arkie. What constitutes far right ideas?

            • arkie 7.1.1.1.2.1
              18 April 2023 at 4:32 pm

              While it may be a genuine question, it is also a very broad question Anker. The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention explains itself well regarding the gender critical movement, however I will endeavor to answer your question broadly, and then with some specific examples.

              Broadly, far-right ideas can be said to be those which think that pre-existing hierarchies (of power, of money, of race, of agency etc, etc.) are correct and natural. That is to say, from nature, ordained by God, or biological even. Any attempts to remove or level hierarchies represents an affront to what is natural and good.

              More specifically, that there is a 'myth of trans vulnerability' or that it is good to vote for ACT, are a couple of examples just off the top of my head.

              • Anker …
                18 April 2023 at 5:19 pm

                Act are far right? Really. What are their policies that are far right?

                Which groups do you know that think that "pre-existing hierarchies (of power, of money, of race, of agency" (whatever you mean by the word agency?) are correct and natural"

                Who would fit this definition?

                • arkie …
                  18 April 2023 at 5:43 pm

                  Read what I wrote. I answered your 'genuine' question.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    18 April 2023 at 6:25 pm

                    Have you ever read anything about the debate that is going one Arkie?

                    And why many women of different political beliefs/relgions etc are concerned?

                    It does not read as if you have if you can put a link that is so reactionary in answer to Anker's question?

                    She asked for a link that had come up before in the debate.

                    Could you link to where the Lemkin stuff was mentioned in the fortnight of debate on TS.

                    Thanks.

                    • Incognito …
                      18 April 2023 at 8:24 pm

                      I don’t know why arkie @ 7.1 provided that particular link to Anker’s question @ 7. Quite possibly, it was an honest mistake with no bad intentions whatsoever and no foul play was happening.

                      Anker asked another rather broad question @ 7.1.1.1.2 but said it was “GEniune question” [sic]. And arkie made a genuine attempt at answering the question in good faith @ 7.1.1.1.2.1.

                      If you or others don’t like arkie’s answers then you can ask why they gave those particular ones instead of and without reading maleficent intentions behind them. Treating another as a bad-faith commenter is not a good starting point for constructive debate and often a sign of a bad-faith actor.

                      PS that Lemkin link has come up quite recently here, but not as recently as that ‘fortnight’ starting at the 25th of March

                    • Shanreagh …
                      18 April 2023 at 10:13 pm

                      I did ask Arkie @6.25pm.

                      The fact that he gave this in relation to a specific request for a specific reference that had appeared on TS makes me wonder.

                      I have asked them to link to where the article appeared on TS.

                • Incognito …
                  18 April 2023 at 6:03 pm

                  Hierarchy of agency is quite similar, I think, to ‘chain of command’.

                  Dame Anne Salmond has put this very nicely into context (e.g. https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/07/07/anne-salmond-he-puapua-and-forgotten-promise.html, Part One) without making any references to the Right or Far-Right (or genocide), so she may be allowed reading material. However, anybody with a modicum of general knowledge can see the glaring points of connection.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    18 April 2023 at 6:34 pm

                    I can see now why TS has become an unpleasant place for women concerned about male bodied people coming into wards, prisons, chnaging rooms and sports.

                    Chain of command? You really think that linking to one of the thoughts around the following of Nazism is appropriate?

                    Hierarchy of agency? Any spurious attempt to either fit this issue into shoes belonging to Nazis or putting shoes on belonging to a different time or people is Ok I suppose, as long as it stamps on the concerns we have.

                    I note that Dame Anne has this as one of her conclusions.
                    ‘Would it be possible to bring together ideas of whakapapa and complex systems in designing new institutional forms of order in Aotearoa New Zealand, as well as relations between people and the wider world?’

                    This seems to suggest that in doing this the concerns of one part are not expected to be dismissed by others in the ‘complex systems’.

                    • Incognito …
                      18 April 2023 at 8:51 pm

                      I have told you before, a few times now, that you have the wrong end of the stick.

                      Both arkie and I have been answering questions in good faith. The fact that you’re trying to sheet this home to TS being an unpleasant place for some women and [because] our answers were intended (!) as ‘stomping’ on you concerns […] says a lot about your state of mind when you respond to our comments. As has become quite evident.

                      You and some others here with conspiracist tendencies and brimming with distrust and antagonism are entitled to your views and opinions of others here. However, you are not entitled to treat those others with bad faith because you believe that they’re acting in bad faith.

                      You do not control the narrative here unless you write your own Posts for which you can dictate your own ‘terms of engagement’, as weka does from time to time (or turn comments off altogether, which, of course, completely negates robust debate).

                      If you and some others here (e.g. the self-confessed TS ‘Nazi expert’) cannot handle robust debate without being triggered, offended, horrified, or otherwise upset then I’d suggest you avoid those flash-points and catalysts.

                    • Molly …
                      18 April 2023 at 9:10 pm

                      I – for one – have no problem following your train of thought, Shanreagh.

                      Still learning as the discussion rages, so please continue for those of us who find value in your views, references and links.

                      (It's up to you whether you spend time and energy on swatting away personal comments, but your contributions are valued.)

                    • tWiggle …
                      18 April 2023 at 9:12 pm

                      Here's a great definition of fascism, which overlaps with far-right ideals.

                      https://tinangata.com/2023/04/12/guest-blog-how-to-spot-a-nazi/

                    • Shanreagh …
                      18 April 2023 at 10:22 pm

                      I am not sure who is the self confessed nazi expert. I only know of it recently in relation to its use by the trans community as the general words for any person they perceive as disagreeing with them.

                      I am heartened by Molly's response @9.10pm. She gets where I am coming from.

                      I do not understand why you, Incognito, are on my case.

                      I especially do not like the ad homs.

                      I am not aware of any response from Arkie other than the ones early today so as far as I know they have not seen or responded to my points.

                      I admit that my focus during the time from when PP was due to come to NZ especially has been on the women’s issues in relation to the trans issues. I don't see anything wrong about that. There are others who have many single issues. There is nothing wrong with that.

                      From Molly:

                      (It's up to you whether you spend time and energy on swatting away personal comments, but your contributions are valued.)

                      I had always thought that ad homs did not have a place here.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      18 April 2023 at 10:26 pm

                      Thank you Molly. Your support is appreciated.

                      The personal comments I find tiresome. An unwelcome addition to my time here.

                      Cheers again.

                    • Molly …
                      18 April 2023 at 10:47 pm

                      @Shanreagh

                      yes

                      (Are you on Twitter?)

                    • weka …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:47 am

                      a few suggestions.

                      1. I agree that it would be good if you slowed down commenting and took more time to understand people’s comments.
                      2. Arkie’s link and Incognito’s later reply are thoughtful and thought provoking. Arkie’s comments have a pointed point, but this is understandable given their beliefs and feelings about the topic.
                      3. Incognito’s comments can be oblique or opaque. I think of them in the same way as Sabine
                        although the style is very different. But both write comments that aren’t necessarily immediately understandable, and both usually improve with multiple readings and taking time to think them through.
                      4. If you find yourself reacting, try stepping away for a while and waiting until you can come back and read comments to gain understanding of what they are actually saying. You know Kathleen Stock’s thing about being able to present the argument of your opponent in a way that is fair?
                      5. I don’t know how you got from either Arkie or Incog’s comments to TS being an unpleasant place for GC women. Because you didn’t say. This is why slowing down is useful, and making time to explain your thinking rather than throwing out reactive comments without context.
                      6. But also, we’re here for the robust debate, and there will be push back against GC positions. I don’t see anything in Arkie or Incog’s few comments here that came close to making it unpleasant here for GC women, in fact Arkie appears to be making an effort to not react but to present their ideas in ways that people can take or leave.
                      7. Likewise, how did you get to Nazis?
                      8. You and Incog are now in a pattern of sniping at each other. I strongly suggest that *you stop your side. For one, authors/mods take precedent here so if it gets out of control, you will be the one that loses. But also, you can’t force people to either accept your thinking, or change their behaviour to you. You can however change your own behaviour. There are lots of other people here to talk with. This is a really good strategy for the long haul, one I highly encourage people to learn as it brings multiple benefits. One immediate one I see is that you might enjoy TS more.

                      I’m saying all that because I don’t have time to go through the whole conversation, but believe it’s important to try and prevent hard polarisation on TS around the gender/ sex wars. I also think your presence on TS is a boon, so am attempting to give some guidelines on what would make it more sustainable.

                • Shanreagh …
                  18 April 2023 at 6:21 pm

                  As I said earlier (15/4) ACT is not far right.

                  8.1

                  15 April 2023 at 5:30 pm

                  Far-right politics, also referred to as the extreme right or right-wing extremism, are political beliefs and actions further to the right of the left–right political spectrum than the standard political right, particularly in terms of being radically conservative, ultra-nationalist, and authoritarian, as well as having nativist ideologies and tendencies.

                  Historically, "far-right politics" has been used to describe the experiences of fascism, Nazism, and Falangism. Contemporary definitions now include neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, the Third Position, the alt-right, racial supremacism, National Bolshevism and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of authoritarian, ultra-nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, and/or reactionary views.

                  Far-right politics have led to oppression, political violence, forced assimilation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide against groups of people based on their supposed inferiority or their perceived threat to the native ethnic group, nation, state, national religion, dominant culture, or conservative social institutions.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

                • weka …
                  19 April 2023 at 10:18 am

                  Act are far right? Really. What are their policies that are far right?

                  In the NZ parliamentary context, ACT are far right (they're to the right of National and no political party in parliament is further right than ACT).

                  That's different from the internationally understood Far Right that is white supremacist, misogynistic, authoritarian and anti-democratic.

            • Francesca 7.1.1.1.2.2
              18 April 2023 at 4:40 pm

              I wouldn't even bother going there Anker.

              Genocide now is it?

              Snort

              Tell it to the Armenians, European Jews,Native Americans ,Rwandans .

              • arkie …
                18 April 2023 at 4:51 pm

                Yeah, what would the organisation named for the Polish Jewish lawyer who in 1944 coined and defined genocide know about it? /s

                You may be interested in their: https://www.lemkininstitute.com/iraq-project, or their https://www.lemkininstitute.com/armeniaproject, or their https://www.lemkininstitute.com/indigenouspeoplesproject perhaps

                • Incognito …
                  18 April 2023 at 5:21 pm

                  The only way to protect an open mind is to close one’s eyes and ears.

                  Old Bigot Proverb

              • Anker …
                18 April 2023 at 5:21 pm

                Thanks Francesca. I think your probably right, but good to challenge people.

              • Shanreagh …
                18 April 2023 at 6:07 pm

                The article is heavily focussed on the US where most observers know that the concerns about the loss of women's rights/issues by the self ID model is concentrated in the right & Christian communities.

                In the UK it is the women from the left who saw the threat to womens issues and ran with it.

                The concept for many women now though, I have found, is wider than lining up on party political lines.

                I find the langauage used in the Lemkin article is intemperate. How can anyone bring genocide into it. It is as bad as likening some thing small & minor as a Holocaust. I am not sure if the article used the word Nazi but it would not surprise me if it did as this word is also in the trans playbook.

                Not one woman I know and none of the readings I have seen have ever wished death ofr destruction on the trans community. We as women basically do not believe that science can be altered in such a way and neither do we wish for what are basically still men, in our sports, prisons, chnaging rooms or hospitals.

                Arkie, you may be impressed by this writing. I am not. It is what I call reactionary and builds up a narrative, then calls it genocide. As it has not even got the key players correct worldwide I wonder what else it has incorrect?

                Surely we can do better than this? Are there articles examining the opposition to self ID and men in women’s sport etc from a more measured starting point.

                Otherwise Francesca has got it in one:

                ‘I wouldn’t even bother going there Anker.

                Genocide now is it?

                Snort

                Tell it to the Armenians, European Jews,Native Americans ,Rwandans’ .

                • Incognito …
                  18 April 2023 at 8:04 pm

                  Where to start with this?

                  I find the langauage [sic] used in the Lemkin article is intemperate. How can anyone bring genocide into it. It is as bad as likening some thing small & minor as a Holocaust. I am not sure if the article used the word Nazi but it would not surprise me if it did as this word is also in the trans playbook.

                  Either you did read the article or you did not. If you had read it, you would have known the answer to your question and would not have needed to have asked it.

                  You would also have known that in that article there was no mention of the Holocaust as such. (NB there is no such thing as ‘a Holocaust’]

                  Your counter-narrative is becoming stale & predictable.

                  Repeating the same well-worn talking points doesn’t change or add anything to ‘the debate’.

                  I don’t want to pre-empt arkie’s reply but it seems that the link was proffered in response to the question regarding the dispelling of the myth trans vulnerability or something rather. I didn’t see it as a case being made regarding genocide as such. I have no idea why arkie decided to put up something with such obvious red flags but that’s for them to explain, if they wish.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    18 April 2023 at 8:34 pm

                    If you read my note and have kept up to date with the anti woman playbooks you will know that the reference to Nazis was a sly reference to this being used ad nauseam against anyone who they perceive as not being on the side of the trans ideology.

                    I did say 'it is as bad as' ……that does not mean that the article included those words but to infer genocide to women not wanting males in their safe spaces is OTT. Other people advancing this type of trope are also the ones who use 'holocaust' left, right and centre. I know full well that there is only one Holocaust. Hence my point.

                    My thought is that Anker asked for a specific link to a reference that had been put up here on TS over the time we were talking about trans issues. I cannot remember seeing the link from Arkie before so my thought is that Arkie may just be stirring and this was born out by the subject matter. It was not about the point that Anker was talking about but some sort of elderly critique (this is a fast moving subject) on women who are concerned.

                    Thanks for your ad hom, once again. Do you use that against the Ukraine/Russia commentators? Several of them have positions that they espouse and while I don't know the ins and outs of all the approaches I don't leap into print and say 'stale and predictable'.

                    When it comes to it for women, it is difficult to do better than saying 'we don't want male bodied people in our safe spaces'. If that is 'stale and predictable' so be it.

                    Or perhaps for variety I could just say 'women don't have penises' and leave it at that knowing that I have Rishi Sunak on my side,as well as biology, and Sir Keir Starmer 99.9% on my side as well.

                    perhaps I could maintian a rota, first

                    male bodied people etc

                    then

                    women don't have penises

                    with

                    biology

                    thrown in every 2 or times.

                    Would that be better?

                    • Incognito …
                      18 April 2023 at 9:45 pm

                      Your comment is again oozing bad faith and it contaminates almost everything else. And it is contagious.

                      It never seems to occur to you that others are not actually saying and meaning what you believe they are. This is your main problem here when you try entering robust debate and it clouds your judgement.

                      And contrary to your belief, not every response to you is about women, safe spaces, and the usual trigger words that are on the forefront of your mind and on your lips 24/7.

                      Nice diversions and deflections – you forgot adding in Trump and the USA.

                      Please give it a break!

                    • Shanreagh …
                      18 April 2023 at 10:46 pm

                      I don't follow Trump so whatever ref that is about it has zoomed right on over.

    • Shanreagh 7.2
      18 April 2023 at 1:47 pm

      I think it was this article from 'The Critic' from Visubversa on 2/4/23

      Visubversa1.2.1.4.2.1

      2 April 2023 at 8:47 pm

      I have used that article in other places to demolish 'the hard done by' argument.

      The Critic has some other good articles.

  8. Anker 8
    18 April 2023 at 2:44 pm

    Cheers Shanreagh

  9. tWiggle 9
    19 April 2023 at 12:29 am

    You do realise The Critic has been called a "contrarian conservative magazine". The editor, who set it up because he is interested in culture war topics, has a funding history including far-right wing of the UK Conservatives and rather nasty right-wing think tanks. Culture war topics are used by the current British government to obsfucate their derelict administration.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Critic_(modern_magazine)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpoint_(magazine)

    • Shanreagh 9.1
      19 April 2023 at 7:31 am

      Of course.

      I am omnivorous as far as good writing is concerned. I have my own sources to check and a well developed BS meter plus university quals in Womens Studies when Phillida Bunkle was head.

      There is good stuff coming from the left women side in the UK and some from the Right in the US.

      I think it is a mistake to believe that women's issues are divided strictly down Left Right political grounds especially for issues such as women's access to safe spaces including in sport, prisons & hospitals etc

    • weka 9.2
      19 April 2023 at 9:10 am

      You do realise The Critic has been called a "contrarian conservative magazine". The editor, who set it up because he is interested in culture war topics, has a funding history including far-right wing of the UK Conservatives and rather nasty right-wing think tanks.

      You do realise that gender ideologist lobbyists started the culture of No Debate and neoliberal lefties picked it up and enforced it, which means that left wing gender critical people couldn't get published. So they give their left wing, progressive work to the places that will publish them. The added bonus of this is it makes conservative media more progressive.

      Culture war topics are used by the current British government to obsfucate their derelict administration.

      Yes, and last time I looked the neoliberal left was putting its energy into identity politics, seems to have abandoned class politics, and is wholly ignoring climate change which will make monkeys out of all of us.

      • Incognito 9.2.1
        19 April 2023 at 9:21 am

        The added bonus of this is it makes conservative media more progressive.

        That’s naïve and more likely the other way round. Providing a platform is not necessarily bridge-building and this weird ‘experiment’ with platform-hopping has so far led to increased polarisation and aggression and it’s driving a huge wedge in what’s left of the Left. Proclaimed Lefties voting for ACT is a case in point.

        • weka 9.2.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 9:31 am

          how is it naive? Conservative people reading conservative media are exposed to progressive thought in a place where they feel comfortable reading.

          What's the other way around? That the left wing, progressive writer is somehow influenced by being adjacent to conservative pieces? Does that happen in MSM where writers are next to opposing ideas all the time?

          If this is platform hopping, it's not the progressive GC people that are causing the wedge, it's No Debate.

          Besides, criticise the piece for what it says.

          This has nothing to do with anker saying they will vote for ACT. That's a function of women feeling politically homeless because of No Debate and the steady removal of women's sex based rights and culture. I think it's a strategy mistake, quite a big one, and there is risk of radicalisation to the right, but I understand why women feel this way.

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