Open mike 19/11/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2024 - 73 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

73 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2024 ”

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  1. thinker 1
    19 November 2024 at 8:20 am

    Following the hikoi with interest. 2pm it is supposed to be at parliament.

    Much of the commentary by participants and media is interesting. It makes it sound as if the treaty is something that is about Maori – comments like 'thanks to the pakeha who are joining us' and the like.

    Granted, the hikoi is something closer to Maori than pakeha, but, especially today, let's not forget that it's as much a pakeha treaty as a Maori treaty. That's the whole point of it.

    The journey of the past decades towards working together has been a shared journey.

    When ACT and the government are trampling on the treaty principles, let's not forget that they are trampling on principles signed by both Maori and pakeha. The treaty belongs to all of us.
    Time corrupted the intent of the treaty and that's the redress we are dealing with today, but the document itself is about a partnership.

    Let's use this opportunity to remember that the treaty is everyone's treaty, and use this sad occasion to further strengthen the goal of partnership.

    • Kay 1.1
      19 November 2024 at 8:28 am

      It's 12pm at parliament. I'm very disappointed I can't join in, what with logistical problems getting into the city, amongst other things. but there in spirit smiley

      Another online petition, but the numbers signed are pretty good. One way to express support.

      https://our.actionstation.org.nz/petitions/kati-stop-the-introduction-of-the-treaty-principles-bill

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 1:14 pm

        Signed. Sadly, Seymour's race-baiting will only increase the party vote for ACT.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/499388/what-is-race-baiting-and-who-decides

        David Seymour ‘knows exactly what he is doing’ – Chris Hipkins
        “This is a debate that is designed to divide the country. It’s designed to be a lightning rod for racism, for anger, for fear, for division, and we think New Zealand is a better country than that.”

        Is NZ better than that? Does our next DPM know exactly what he's doing? Absolutely.

        Polls show more New Zealanders support the Treaty Principles Bill than oppose it. – Seymour


        https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table

        • Muttonbird 1.1.1.1
          19 November 2024 at 1:33 pm

          What polls were these, I wonder?

          If he's relying on one Curia poll, it's worth pointing out David Farrar and Curia were expelled from the Research Association of New Zealand for corrupt practice.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2024 at 3:31 pm

            Could Seymour be relying on his (worm) gut?

            Give Nothing to Racism.
            Racism starts small. Sometimes it lives in everyday actions and comments that we laugh off, nod in agreement to, excuse, and therefore accept. But we don’t have to. We can stop casual racism from growing into something more extreme. We can give it no encouragement. No respect. No place. No power. We can give it nothing. http://www.givenothing.co.nz [Buy this domain.]

            The Weaponization Of Equality By David Seymour
            When David Seymour says he wants equality for all New Zealanders, what he actually means is ‘everyone stays where they are and keeps what they already have’. So the people with wealth & influence keep it, and the people with poverty and lack of opportunity keep that too.

            Nicky Hager: Beware the smooth talker with a forked tongue
            Act billboards say End Division by Race, but it is actually
            more like Defend Division by Wealth.

            Apologies for the repetition.

          • On the fence 1.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2024 at 10:27 pm

            Your explanation is a bit extreme. He resigned and was not expelled. There was a complaint but I can’t find the detail online. For what it’s worth I remember seeing something about on kiwiblog a few weeks back. Take it with a grain of salt though as I can’t find details on what was in the complaint.

            • Muttonbird 1.1.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2024 at 10:59 pm

              Well that f*cking clears things up, doesn't it?

              • On the fence …
                19 November 2024 at 11:29 pm

                I get it its vague but take it out on the Research Association of New Zealand for not putting the detail out there. The complaint was in August (probably logged well before the announcement was put out on their website).

                Farrar says he just got sick of dealing with all the complaints and said it wasn't worth staying. One side of the story and all that (hence why I said take it with a grain of salt). Doesn't change the fact though that Curia did not get expelled for corrupt reasons as you stated as a matter of fact.

                  • On the fence …
                    19 November 2024 at 11:49 pm

                    Thanks for the link Muttonbird it was a good read and I couldn't see it on the google searches I did.

                    To say they were "corrupt" and "expelled" is a reach however. Based on what I read they submitted a survey that fell short of defined standards someone complained and Curia amended it (forced too).

                    You could debate they jumped before being pushed. I read Farrar's response to it and it did seem like there were some crocodile tears in the mix but again resigned and expelled are 2 different things.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      19 November 2024 at 11:57 pm

                      He was expelled because he refused to adhere to the standards put in place by RANZ. Those standards are in place so RANZ can exist as a trusted industry organisation.

                      Therefore Farrar and Curia cannot be trusted. Seymour's evidence of support for his racist bill is based on partisan polling which cannot be trusted.

                    • On the fence …
                      20 November 2024 at 12:04 am

                      Is there a link where it says he was expelled? The RANZ website doesn't say that and I can’t see it in the article you pointed me too.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      20 November 2024 at 10:27 am

                      Seems I have a fan who has linked to this thread at Kuriablog asking Farrar to take legal action. I'm well familiar with the commenter 'Northshoredoc' across a few platforms because he has been following me around for years desperately trying to get me thrown off forums.

                      [lprent: That’s ok. I only throw people off for stupid actions and legal issues that I think are possible. Threats of legal action I ignore when they don’t adhere to actual legal realities. The difference between being expelled and jumping because of a high likelihood of expulsion for repeated offences is not realistically actionable. And the chance to enforce discovery on DF and Curia would be hard to pass up on. ]

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 November 2024 at 11:43 pm

                An independent panel was reviewing the recommendation of the RANZ Professional Standards Group when Curia/Farrar resigned from the RANZ. With any luck that panel's final decision will be made public – eventually.

                Update from RANZ Chair on membership resignation by Curia Market Research (20 Aug 2024)

                The RANZ Professional Standards Group has made a recommendation to the Chair of RANZ in respect of this complaint [against Curia Research]. The complaints process allows that, when such a recommendation is made, the Chair can establish an independent panel to review that recommendation and to make a final decision. We were underway with this process when Curia tendered its resignation.

                In these circumstances, the Constitution allows the complaints process to continue at the discretion of the Chair. After consulting with David [Farrar] at Curia, the complainant, an external advisor and senior members of the RANZ Board and Executive, we have decided to continue the process and bring it to a conclusion. We think this is the fairest outcome for all the parties involved.

                Once the independent panel’s work is complete, the RANZ Board will release the panel’s decision.

          • jess 1.1.1.1.3
            20 November 2024 at 9:38 am

            Now you know that is a lie mutton bird. He resigned, was not expelled.

            • lprent 1.1.1.1.3.1
              20 November 2024 at 10:56 am

              From memory, DF’s victimisation waffling on the subject explicitly indicates that he resigned to avoid a probable public reprimand, and eventual expulsion. I am sure that you know this.

              So I think that you are just splitting hairs whilst trolling

            • On the fence 1.1.1.1.3.2
              20 November 2024 at 3:37 pm

              Thats a tad over dramatic. Muttonbird actually gave me some good info that gave me some wider context. You're not wrong and details do matter but flaming him up doesn't help either.

              He resigned but the question remains was he jumped before he was pushed. I do know complaints systems can be used against your enemies (political and otherwise). This method of thinking however means you have bought into what David Farrar has said hook line and sinker.

              Theres no evidence I can find that Farrar is correct or justified in his resignation over at Kiwiblog. Maybe the Research Association of New Zealand will put something else out at a later date to refute it but I doubt it.

          • johnh 1.1.1.1.4
            20 November 2024 at 10:33 am

            But do you think Martin will ever apologize?

            • Incognito 1.1.1.1.4.1
              20 November 2024 at 11:02 am

              Who’s Martin?

              • lprent …
                20 November 2024 at 11:09 am

                johnh is probably carelessly referring to Bomber. That is why I released the new handle comment only with probation for amusement. If the answer is useful, the release them. Otherwise I suspect we have another dumbarse troll who can't make the first cut.

    • Mike the Lefty 1.2
      19 November 2024 at 9:59 am

      Yes, and that's why it upsets me our NZ flag being used by creeps like Brian Tamaki. How dare he and his conspiracy theory nutters subvert my flag into an instrument of division ang antagonism.

  2. Muttonbird 2
    19 November 2024 at 8:26 am

    Best result for today would be for Luxon to be brave, address Hīkoi mō te Tīriti announcing he stands with them for unity and against division. Then later announce the select committee will be shortened to one month.

    It would be a massive power play but otherwise he's going to get boiled and eaten by the racists in Act and in his own party.

    • Tiger Mountain 2.1
      19 November 2024 at 8:41 am

      Baldrick is a blockhead with little strategic ability or political instinct. When the likes of Jenny Shipley and Chris Finlayson arise from the crypt to bollock Seymour, it should be a bit of a clue as to what the PM should do today.

    • Bearded Git 2.2
      19 November 2024 at 11:20 am

      He had the chance to kill it when the 42 KC's released their report before the vote on the Bill. But Luxon is entirely spineless and bottled it.

  3. Ad 3
    19 November 2024 at 9:01 am

    I love that Luxon has nowhere to go on this Bill.

    He won't want to lose the backlash vote that got him in there. But he will stop the Bill.

    He has near-zero media coverage of his travels so his leadership is absent as PM.

    Spectacular loss for National.

    Well done march organizers. I'm there in spirit.

    • Mike the Lefty 3.1
      19 November 2024 at 10:08 am

      I agree. If he has the balls he will admit he was wrong to let the bill progress as he did but promise to atone for it in other ways.

      But I won't be holding my breath.

      National now realise that whatever happens from now on is going to reflect badly on them so they'll be busy manufacturing some good news distraction stories now.

    • Bearded Git 3.2
      19 November 2024 at 11:22 am

      Hoist by his own cowardly petard.

    • adam 3.3
      19 November 2024 at 3:05 pm

      I'm still surprised no journalist has asked luxxy –

      "How long are you back in the country for this time?"

  4. Muttonbird 4
    19 November 2024 at 9:37 am

    Important piece by Simon Wilson here. Two really good points, one about abuse in state care but broader, capturing what it means to live by western neoliberal order:

    There’s a social contract that operates between citizens and the politicians and officials who define the legal framework of our lives. We give them the right to do it, and in return they accept certain responsibilities.

    Those responsibilities include ensuring the harm people endure under that contract is eliminated.

    Then on the racist principles bill:

    The fact is, the Treaty is a contract. It explicitly recognises property rights.

    It’s true Māori and Pākehā had different understandings of what “property” meant in 1840. But in relation to Seymour’s bill, that’s neither here nor there. In this contract, the Crown committed to upholding what it understood to be the property rights of Māori.

    That is not in dispute.

    Now, Act wants the Crown to walk away from its commitment.

    Here, property rights include Māoritanga, reo, mana, the protections of which Seymour wants to roll back 50-200 years.

    https://archive.is/M7MFN

    • dv 4.1
      19 November 2024 at 9:45 am

      200 years — all owned by Maori then!!!

    • gsays 4.2
      19 November 2024 at 10:20 am

      Good articles.

      In regards covering up torture in care, I agree Jagose must go.

      Yes Collins should go too. However I disagree with Wilson when he implies that it is because Collins is still in Parliament. There does need to be an investigation into which ministers new what and when.

      Unfortunately this includes Ministers of Health, Justice, Police and Education from both Labour and National going back at least 25 years.

      It took Iran to call Collins out over her lie that Aotearoa doesn't torture it's citizens.

  5. Muttonbird 5
    19 November 2024 at 9:56 am

    Rimmer having a cry. Where are these 'members of the public' today? Looks like a counter protest of one to me, and even he’s hiding in the beehive.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hikoi-to-parliament-live-updates-thousands-descend-on-wellington-in-historic-day-of-mass-protest/HGI2Z5XVYBCXVHNDGPSFGWPFBQ/?postId-135252

  6. koina 6
    19 November 2024 at 10:05 am

    TPM is "proving" Whtes are all power crazy prejudiced racists

    Act is "proving" Maori are all trouble makers.

    Seymour will be rubbing his hands in glee pulling in more votes from the continued growth of the angry disaffected White male cult.

    TPM will gain strength as the only true voice for the first people tangata whenua.

    What it proves for sure is that we are not one people, never were and never will be.

    National NZF Labour and Greens are all using the John Key teflon dance steps

    and all come away unscathed.

    Maori on the war path is gold for the media ad the right wing.The media makes huge profits these past few weeks while National has an entire year where their vast election promises about housing, jobs and medical services do not come under any scrutiny.

    I was on the 1975 Hikoi.

    I could have told this Hikoi nothing will actually change. But I didn't.

    Sometimes you can't be told, you have to let people learn the hard way.

    50 years from now there will be another Hikoi.

    Different faces will say the same things with the same result.

    Maori will be portrayed as trouble while Whites will claim the high ground.

    Been happening since the Cheatie in 1840.

    Something about doing the same over and over and expecting different outcomes

    • weka 6.1
      19 November 2024 at 10:26 am

      things have changed though. Not ideally or nearly enough, but it's not nothing.

      • Muttonbird 6.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 10:30 am

        Yes, things have changed and proof of that is the existence and rise of David Seymour and his sloppy bill. They not angry about nothing.

    • tWig 6.2
      19 November 2024 at 10:31 am

      I know rip-offs haven't stopped. But the attitude of society in general has changed quite markedly towards at least acknowledging Maori are significant in NZ government decisions. And, of course Maori children today, a third of all our NZ children, will be the voters and citizens of tomorrow. That is the 'threat' that Seymour perceives, and in future-proofing for the capitalists.

      If you don't plant a flag in the earth, and state your position, others will state it for you, and steal your space. Shifting the Overton window. Each generation must reinforce that message. This is true for every misjustice, not only Maori as a part of NZ, but for all disadvantaged groups in society.

    • Incognito 6.3
      19 November 2024 at 10:42 am

      A fine example of binary B&W pessimism – a fate bestowed on so many activists.

  7. Ad 7
    19 November 2024 at 10:05 am

    Fascinating to see Auckland's Mayor Brown propose to wipe out its development arm Eke Panuku, shrink its facilities and events entity, and cut Auckland Transport by bringing in-house all planning, communications, marketing, legal, finance, and reverse existing delegations from Council to AT.

    By a long way the largest reversal of corporatisation I've seen in Auckland since ARST part-successfully resisted Shipley back in the day.

    • Sanctuary 7.1
      19 November 2024 at 11:38 am

      It'll be a damn shame if TAU gets cut, it does a lot of good work for the people of Auckland and it is full of dedicated people who work bloody hard.

      everyone does seem to hate AT though.

  8. tWig 8
    19 November 2024 at 10:53 am

    Showing that bicycle lanes in politics are a culture wars issue: The Premier of Ontario wants to rip out bicycle lanes recently installed in Toronto along his drive to work.

    'The Toronto city council has voted to oppose a provincial bill which would grant Ontario the power to block planned cycle paths that remove a traffic lane. The province’s pledge to rip out recently installed infrastructure would cost $C48m…The move, seen as a dramatic moment of government overreach, has provoked a fierce backlash from cyclists and city officials, and raised broader question about the future of cars – and bicycles – in large urban centres…

    'But critics say the government hasn’t produced any data to suggest the three lanes are causing more delays than road or building construction…..they say, the premier has based the controversial policy on anecdotal evidence. “He’s deflecting from the failings and scandals of his government” '.

    Make a big noise about something relatively inconsequential. Get voted in on less government interference in local body decisions, then meddle to your heart's content. Keep banging the drum to cloud the waters, to mix detractor metaphors. Sound familiar?

  9. Sanctuary 9
    19 November 2024 at 10:53 am

    I predicted a while a go that election of a hardline Trump administration would possibly result in a Kemalist military coup in the United States. The threat of general's revolt appears to have completely gone over the head of Trump's clown show of advisors, and I must admit I thought the idea a bit far fetched, if more possible than people seemed to think.

    However, there are persistent reports of senior US officers discussing how ro refuse to carry out unconstitutional (US soldiers swear to uphold the constitution, not fealty to the president) and illegal orders and with Trump appearing determined to try and recall and courtmartial senior officers and jail anyone who opposes him the coup possibility has inched closer.

    Now I think we've got a potential trigger for the coup in Trumps confirmation he will use the military to run his concentration camps and deportation policies –

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/18/trump-military-mass-deportation

    "…Trump and Miller have described plans to federalize state national guard personnel and deploy them for immigration enforcement, including sending troops from friendly Republican-governed states into neighboring states with governors who decline to participate. Miller has also advocated for building large-scale detention “camps” and tents…"

    So there is the trigger – it doesn't take much imagination to think what might happen if Texas sends national guard troops to California to try and round up migrants, and Newsom calls out the California national guard to stop them. Trump and his kakistocracy appears to be gagging for a civil war without pausing to wonder which way his senior generals will point their guns if push comes to shove.

    • Obtrectator 9.1
      19 November 2024 at 6:50 pm

      I've wondered about that possibility myself. The trouble is: once it's done …. where and what next? The historical precedents aren't exactly encouraging.

      A certain Mr Cromwell did something of the kind in England between 1648 and 1653. Things stayed under control for a few years afterwards, but only really because of his personal qualities. He never managed to devise a system that would outlive him. Once he'd died, no-one knew what to do. After a couple of years of faffing around, another general decided "oh well, might as well bring back the monarchy".

      France went through a few rinse-and-repeats of similar events over some 170 years, before Charles de Gaulle finally succeeded in providing them with a workable republican constitution.

      Kemal himself (not Kamala!) succeeded in dumping the demonstrably useless Sultanate, but ultimately became a pretty considerable tyrant himself. ("Meet the new boss …. ") On the credit side, his secular reforms lasted quite well, even throwing up for a time a female leader. But now it appears that militant Islam, like rust, never sleeps, and Turkey's Trump rules even as we speak, taking the country ever further back.

      • Sanctuary 9.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 7:56 pm

        Well, you could have a short congress, followed by the long congress that would abolish the senate & win a civil war against the president, then the rump congress when the majority of the long congress wouldn't do what the army wanted it to do, then the army appointed congress, finally the long congress could be recalled, dissolved and the constitution restored, say over about 20 years?

        That is just a guess, buit it is based on precedent…

  10. Muttonbird 10
    19 November 2024 at 11:11 am

    Seymour is such a dreadful scumbag:

    “Thousands of New Zealanders are marching in Wellington today to make their feelings known. I hope they will now read the bill and engage in the substance of the debate via the select committee process.

    “Many more New Zealanders in the rest of the country are going about their day as normal, working to provide a better future for themselves and their loved ones.

    "I hope they will also make their voice heard by making a submission when they have the time.”

    Tries to frame members of Te Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti as the lazy unemployed, an ill-disciplined minority apparently not 'working to provide a better future for themselves and their loved ones'.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hikoi-to-parliament-live-updates-thousands-descend-on-wellington-in-historic-day-of-mass-protest/HGI2Z5XVYBCXVHNDGPSFGWPFBQ/

    • thinker 10.1
      19 November 2024 at 11:28 am

      Is he deluding himself or trying to delude the rest of us by thinking those who aren't in the hikoi are supporters of the bill?

      It seems to me the reaction ACT expected is not what they got and they're trying to do a cover up job and pass the blame.

      The Achilles heel of the wealthy right is they forget that while money can get you a lot of what you want it's the vote count that decides things.

      Remember Spot The Dog and the belief that FPP would prevail if enough money was spent promoting it.

  11. Res Publica 11
    19 November 2024 at 11:33 am

    Typical chickenhawk National. They can't even commit to being properly, publically racist.

    It's interesting that Luxon et al think they can duck responsibility by only supporting this bill to the first reading. As if once its gone, the electorate will just forget about it.

  12. joe90 12
    19 November 2024 at 11:44 am

    The transfer of wealth from the poor to some of the richest people on the planet begins. Well done, 'Muricans, you dopey pricks.

    /

    President-elect Donald Trump’s economic advisers and congressional Republicans have begun preliminary discussions about making significant changes to Medicaid, food stamps and other federal safety net programs to offset the enormous cost of extending Trump’s 2017 tax cuts next year.

    Among the options under discussion by GOP lawmakers and aides are new work requirements and spending caps for the programs, according to seven people familiar with the talks, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. Those conversations have included some economic officials on Trump’s transition team, the people said.

    https://archive.li/cFuRP (wapo)

  13. Muttonbird 13
    19 November 2024 at 1:40 pm

    Solid Arsenal fan there. I guess they aren't so bad after all.

    • Jilly Bee 14.1
      19 November 2024 at 2:30 pm

      I saw that too Kay, and was just about to post the link myself. I can't help noting that she (and David Seymour) were very quiet during the America's Cup racing in Barcelona. There were several N Z families there with their children on full display.

      • Kay 14.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 2:35 pm

        But think of all the wonderful educational experiences to be gained by having the means to travel the world

        /s

    • Incognito 14.2
      19 November 2024 at 2:48 pm

      Is she going to ban field trips?

    • SPC 14.3
      19 November 2024 at 3:13 pm

      No one taking people on school trips to the former capital Okiato at the start of the new year term, or to the place of parliament before the end of year summer break?

      No school camps?

      No going to local conservation areas?

      Can they look at a big screen in the room to see the world outside the classroom?

    • Mike the Lefty 14.4
      19 November 2024 at 6:34 pm

      I would suggest that children attending the hikoi probably learned more today than they would have at school today.

      They learned what people power is about, they learned how to stick up for what they believe in and to be proud of it.

      Who cares what derogatory comments Stanford, Peters and Seymour make about those who attended? These little minds have no concept of the storm their arrogance and ignorance have unleashed.

  15. joe90 15
    19 November 2024 at 2:39 pm

    Not an elmo fan.

    .

    The Verge Editor-In-Chief Nilay Patel is one of the most blunt voices in American media.

    Which is precisely why I wanted to sit down with him for a discussion on Elon Musk’s transition to “dark MAGA” billionaire and, more broadly, how Donald Trump's victory will impact the technology world. Suffice to say, Patel did not pull any punches.

    Below is the Q&A, lightly edited for clarity and style.

    What do you make of Elon Musk's alliance with Donald Trump and what worries you the most about him playing such an outsized role in the Trump administration?

    America now has an unelected defense contractor sitting in the White House doing ketamine and twiddling the algorithmic knobs of an influential right-wing echo chamber while fulminating against traditional standards-based journalism, threatening to revoke network broadcast licenses, and suing advertisers who don’t want to spend their money on his dwindling user base. What could go wrong?

    On top of that, Trump's most likely FCC Chairman is Brendan Carr, who was tasked in the first Trump government to crack down on platform moderation by taking control of Section 230, literally wrote the Project 2025 chapter laying out a plan to do so, and is now begging to punish NBC for having Kamala Harris on “SNL.”

    To be as clear as I can be, the second Trump administration with Elon Musk embedded within it represents the most direct and sustained threat to the First Amendment and the freedom of the press any of us will ever experience. If you’re a media executive or editorial leader and you haven’t met with your legal team to understand the current landscape of First Amendment threats, let alone the ones to come, you’re already behind. Get on it.

    https://www.status.news/p/nilay-patel-donald-trump-big-tech-interview

    • Jenny 15.1
      20 November 2024 at 8:45 am

      We have just witnessed democracy in action.

      The American Right make a big song and dance about protecting the Second Amendment of the American Constitution, which gives US citizens the right to bear arms.

      The same US right wingers frequently try to undermine the right to protest enshrined in the First Amendment to the US constitution on the right to public assembly.

      "Can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something." Donald Trump

      There is a reason that the First Amendment of the American Constitution protects the right to public assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

      Without this right, even the most democratically elected government, for the period of their term, is essentially an elected dictatorship.

      • Text of the First Amendment

        The First Amendment states that Congress cannot make laws that restrict the right of the people to peacefully assemble.

      • US Supreme Court interpretation

        The Supreme Court has ruled that the right to peacefully assemble is a fundamental right that is similar to free speech and free press.

        The right to free assembly is the first thing that dictators prohibit.

        Russia which has banned all anti-war protests, holds elections, elections can be stage managed, electorates can be manipulated, election results can be massaged, election results can even be completely fabricated. Elections can even be bought. But tens of thousands motivated to go on to the streets can not be hidden or their views misrepresented.

        Could David Seymour for instance get more than a few hundred New Zealanders on the streets of Wellington in support of his so called 'Treaty Principles Bill'?

        I doubt it.

        This is what democracy looks like.

        …..Police estimated about 42,000 people were participating in the march, organised by Toitū te Tiriti, many of who oppose the Government's Treaty Principles Bill, which passed its first reading last week during a fiery vote in Parliament.

        Crowds engulfed the Parliament grounds which quickly reached capacity, with thousands spilling out onto surrounding streets in the CBD…..

        https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/19/tens-of-thousands-take-part-as-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti-reaches-parliament/

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVCtTWQEaXA

  17. joe90 17
    19 November 2024 at 5:31 pm

    I’d agree with Seymour that your comments here have been divisive, disrespectful & hateful, and racist.

    Trolls troll.

    .

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/03/21/520522240/the-emergence-of-the-white-troll-behind-a-black-face

    https://apnews.com/article/black-trump-kamala-harris-tim-walz-aca31c66fe5bfef1e8827581e7919ece

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [@ joe90, I decided to move this to OM, as it became a distraction to the OP, FYI – Incognito]

    • Incognito 17.1
      19 November 2024 at 6:02 pm

      I don’t think so. We’ve seen this user before on TS; they commented for a brief period here on TS in 2019 with a different user handle. However, they seem to have been radicalised somewhat compared to 2019. Of course, it’s possible that they’re a mole-troll planted here in 2019 and re-activated in 2024 – they’re a great help to ACT and Seymour’s cause, IMO.

      • Muttonbird 17.1.1
        19 November 2024 at 7:11 pm

        Ok, it would be nice if those with access to IP addresses could alert regular, honest users to these multi accounts rather than have us waste our time engaging with far RW trolls.

        I say it a lot, we do not post in a bubble. Anonymous, pseudonymous, whatever, we are talking a particular person when we comment. It's really important to know who is who, while still having the anonymous bit.

        It's not the guy who worked in a tree nursery around Mangawhai, is it?

        • Incognito 17.1.1.1
          19 November 2024 at 7:52 pm

          In 2019 they didn’t add much to the debate but they also didn’t draw attention of the Mods.

          I could reply to each and every perceived troll with DNFTT, but you’d be surprised about the pull of the troll and how many commenters here can’t resist wasting their good time on feeding them when it’s bloody obvious that it’s futile. People simply don’t read and ignore the sign and feed the ducks anyway.

          It’s not the guy who worked in a tree nursery around Mangawhai, is it?

          Nope, their avatar is still the same as in 2019, if that helps; I cannot tell which Mod/Admin approved their new user handle (it could have been me, but I doubt it).

      • tWig 17.1.2
        19 November 2024 at 8:56 pm

        I like koina's comments. Koina is pretty factual for the most part. People here seem to get their knickers in a twist about a single opinion embedded in a wider post topic.

        Koina is entitled to their opinions, especially as they come from their life experience, which helps me to connect with them.

        Not trolling, as far as I'm concerned. I have seen far more objectionable ideas mooted here with little or no pushback.

        Martin Luther King had some pretty scathing words for people who just mouthed liberal ideas.

        ' Ultimately, King wrote that "shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." '.

        Read koina's comments for the heart of their message. If a sentence makes you itch, then maybe you should look closer at why you find that a sore point.

        • Incognito 17.1.2.1
          19 November 2024 at 9:33 pm

          Let’s debate it for 6 months and then hold a referendum, shall we?

          Liking or disliking comments is great for Twitter and Kiwiblog but a lousy way to judge trolling and not a good guide for robust debate.

          You may want to do some fact-checking every now & then and ignore anecdata; for itches there are OTC anti-histamines.

    • Incognito 17.2
      19 November 2024 at 9:18 pm

      Mod note

  18. Muttonbird 18
    19 November 2024 at 7:49 pm

    You've been outed as a multi troll. Get lost.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

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