Open mike 21/03/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 21st, 2020 - 224 comments
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224 comments on “Open mike 21/03/2020 ”

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  1. RedLogix 1
    21 March 2020 at 7:44 am

    And exactly why did WHO's Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus spend weeks telling there was no need to stop international travel, all the while praising China's response that primarily involved shutting tens of millions into their appartments and stopping all travel within China?

    When he knew that virus's don't know the difference between the borders of a city and a country?

    When he knew millions had evaded the initial Hubei lockdown?

    When he knew the silent transmission characteristic that made it certain the virus would get out of China?

    If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis. Instead China insisted that any such travel ban would be 'racist', while at the same time imposing the same measures domestically.

    These are not actions in good faith. Some hard questions need answers.

    • I Feel Love 1.1
      21 March 2020 at 7:47 am

      Maybe after things settle down?

    • Ad 1.2
      21 March 2020 at 7:49 am

      It's a pretty weird twist of global fate when the country and the government that essentially caused the outbreak in the first place is the country that is using that same moment to become the predominant power of the world.

      Rather than send Xi Jinping the bill for all of it, we are sending him exports and gratitude.

      • Sabine 1.2.1
        21 March 2020 at 7:55 am

        so you have proof that China is the source of this? care to share?

        • Blazer 1.2.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 7:56 am

          I think Wuhan is in China…Sabine.

          • Sabine 1.2.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 2:30 pm

            yes, but as i said, at the same time you had cases already in the US.

            So, we know fuck all, all we know is that the first one to raise the issue was a chinese doctor, and that the first country to do something was China.

            As of now no one has any idea what it is that brought that virus forth (and no the food was not it) and we don't know who patient one is and where he/she could have potentially been exposed to it.

            For what its worth the last 'flu' season in the US was bad, very very bad, and a few of these dead could possibly counted towards the Virus. But as the US did not test, D. Trump the fuckwit refused testing for the longest time they now have a worse outbreak then China ever had.

            So really, please do not call it the 'chinese' virus, its bullshit, its racists and its just fucking dumb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

            • CrimzonGhost 1.2.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2020 at 5:57 pm

              Sabine, I like you, but you're wrong here. It started in China same way SARS et al started due to sloppy OSH & their Gov not monitoring/ regulating/banning live wildlife 'wet' markets. So to state fact and say its' Wuhan or Chinese Flu is not in itself inherently racist albeit is true that racists will like to play up it's Chinese origin but that doesn't mean you have to go PC and doublespeak. A spade is a spade & a shovel is a shovel.

              KLW/CrimzonGhost, Libertarian Socialist.

        • Ad 1.2.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 7:57 am

          Wuhan was the source of the outbreak.

          Wuhan is in China.

          Shared.

          • Graeme 1.2.1.2.1
            21 March 2020 at 9:52 am

            There's a difference between source and caused.

            Would the current situation be much different if a similar virus had emerged in Saudi Arabia or Kentucky. Probably the only difference would be that it wouldn't be in China.

      • bwaghorn 1.2.2
        21 March 2020 at 8:18 am

        Couldnt possible be working exactly as planned. ??

        • Ad 1.2.2.1
          21 March 2020 at 8:20 am

          No but it is a real hinge of fate moment.

          We should all recall this year, as the Chinese do, the Year of the Rat.

          • Sabine 1.2.2.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 2:32 pm

            Does this cheap racism make you feel better?

            • CrimzonGhost 1.2.2.1.1.1
              21 March 2020 at 6:01 pm

              Look, if you see racism in laying out a fact (ie it started in Wuhan, China & Chinese actions/inactions helped it spread as they withheld info & misled) , you've got a problem. If everything is racist & fascist then ultimately nothing is …the terms become devalued & meaningless.

      • francesca 1.2.3
        21 March 2020 at 9:27 am

        I suggest the tardy response by governments other than the Chinese is more responsible for the spread of coronavirus outside China.

        "On December 31 last year, China alerted WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a port city of 11 million people in the central Hubei province. The virus was unknown."

        https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/timeline-china-coronavirus-spread-200126061554884.html

        Next you'll be calling it the "Chinese virus"

        • francesca 1.2.3.1
          21 March 2020 at 9:32 am

          And, from the editor of the Lancet

          https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/18/coronavirus-uk-expert-advice-wrong

          "The Chinese scientists pulled no punches. “The number of deaths is rising quickly,” they wrote. The provision of personal protective equipment for health workers was strongly recommended. Testing for the virus should be done immediately a diagnosis was suspected. They concluded that the mortality rate was high. And they urged careful surveillance of this new virus in view of its “pandemic potential”.

          That was in January. Why did it take the UK government eight weeks to recognise the seriousness of what we now call Covid-19?"

          • Ad 1.2.3.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 9:37 am

            Fully agree that every country has to own their own fate after it got out of China.

            Some like South Korea figured out the early-and-hard path to success.

        • Ad 1.2.3.2
          21 March 2020 at 9:36 am

          When the Chinese notified the WHO is irrelevant.

          The key date is the time it took the Chinese government to lock down Wuhan and most of Hubei into quarantine.

          That was 23 January.

          Looking back 6 weeks after that, a series of further measures slowed the spread.

          https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/china-s-aggressive-measures-have-slowed-coronavirus-they-may-not-work-other-countries

          But by 23 January it was well and truly out.

          China is trolling the world with alternative histories right now, but the Chinese government was responsible for not stopping the initial spread of the virus.

          • new view 1.2.3.2.1
            21 March 2020 at 2:27 pm

            Fuck off with your irrelevant accusations Ad. No one new what this thing was then. It would have taken a number of weeks for the Chinese to wake up to what they were dealing with. We’re at the arsehole of the world and have had six weeks to get it right an start getting in testing supplies etc. we’re still fucking it up but looking good on TV. We’re always late yet we are in the world’s best place to stop it. Throwing stones at China and being slow pick up on what they learnt means we are useless not them.

        • alwyn 1.2.3.3
          21 March 2020 at 10:30 am

          Possibly the most effective response was that by Singapore.

          They started preparing immediately after the first warning at the end of December. Then they went in as a full scale operation in late January. I believe they ended up with 266 cases and no deaths.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120433407/why-singapores-coronavirus-response-worked–and-what-we-can-all-learn

          I remember advocating on 6 March that we should be getting our arses into gear rather than just ignoring things. At the time I suggested we should simply do precisely what Singapore was doing. Don't you wish now that we had done so?

          https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-03-2020/#comment-1689513

          By the way. If you one of those who commented in reply to my opinion are you still happy with the views you then expressed about how self isolation and so on was just fine?

      • bill 1.2.4
        21 March 2020 at 11:19 am

        the government that essentially caused the outbreak

        ffs. Seriously?!

        Lemme help you out here Ad. The outbreak was (probably) essentially caused by a virus transmitting from one species to another (us).

        In addition – Chinese authorities were confronted by something novel coming at them from 'left field', whereas our government and others, well…

        • RedLogix 1.2.4.1
          21 March 2020 at 12:08 pm

          The outbreak was (probably) essentially caused by a virus transmitting from one species to another

          When researchers based at the Wuhan biolab publish papers in Nature back in 2015 detailing how they had recombined a novel bat virus and the original SAR's virus, then yes you are technically correct.

          Incidentally my Chinese source tells me three interesting things. One is that the ethnic/language group in Hubei speak a quite different dialect from the dominant Manderin/Cantonese. They have long been regarded with disdain by the central authorities.

          Secondly, and I have no English language reference for this so it's in the very grey zone of 'maybe', Chinese social media sources are saying that the Wuhan lab has been recently demolished and no longer exists.

          Thirdly the CCP has just made a big dog and pony show of expelling all US journalists from China; journalists who spoke the language and knew their way around the system. Any remaining foreign journalists will be hugely intimidated by this, and given the way they closely monitor their activities, the chances of any independent proof of what actually happened in Wuhan is now close to zero.

          The other real consideration is the high probability of of an unintentional leak from the lab, either due to lax procedures or the well known animal trade from these labs that has documented instance of happening before.

          Absolutely I understand what I'm implying regarding intent. I’m pointing out the dots, it’s up to you how you decide to join them.

          And Ad very eloquently used the phrase "hinge of fate" …. this indeed is another possibility. But given the CCP's utterly vile human rights record right from … well their very beginnings … why are so many people in the West giving them any benefit of the doubt on this?

          • Stunned Mullet 1.2.4.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 12:13 pm

            Dangerous information RL – if there is any confirmed (or sadly made up and widely distributed information) facts that this is a bioengineered virus that has been mistakenly released there'll be some potentially very nasty consequences over and above what we're experiencing at present.

            • RedLogix 1.2.4.1.1.1
              21 March 2020 at 12:21 pm

              My best guess is that the initial Patient Zero was probably an accident. But sometime in early Jan the CCP decided to game it.

          • bill 1.2.4.1.2
            21 March 2020 at 1:57 pm

            That's "twin towers" stuff right there Red and no less useful.

            • RedLogix 1.2.4.1.2.1
              21 March 2020 at 2:12 pm

              Yeah I know, no such thing as bad intent. The CCP are living, walking angels who will save us all. /sarc

              Yet all but one of my points are public domain knowledge, together they form a number of possible patterns if you care to look. And given the impossibility of getting reliable evidence, then neither you nor I can insist we are right.

              But reflexively dismissing everything you think impossible as ‘tin foil hat’ territory is rather tired. Sometimes bad people really do bad shit, and given the CCP’s known track record of bad shit ….

              • McFlock …
                21 March 2020 at 3:49 pm

                It's not impossible.

                Just pointless, impossible to verify, based on reckons, and a casus belli for violent racists everywhere.

                Like bloody "cheese pizza" all over again.

                • RedLogix …
                  21 March 2020 at 7:29 pm

                  Just pointless, impossible to verify, based on reckons, and a casus belli for violent racists everywhere.

                  Fair enough if you don't want to understand. I can get that. At the same time plenty of people here have no trouble leveling all manner of very direct attacks on Trump's administration, without anyone saying it's a "casus belli for violent racists everywhere".

                  • McFlock …
                    21 March 2020 at 7:46 pm

                    🙄 Well, no. Because he's the one on the side of the racists. "Good people on both sides", remember that?

                    But if you can prove that covid-19 is a CCP bioweapon, put up or shut up. Otherwise you're just trying to make people more jumpy than they already are.

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 8:01 pm

                      I was careful not to claim that it was designed or intended to be a bioweapon. Research labs work with all sorts of nasties for perfectly legit reasons, many of which you really don't want to unintentionally leak out. There is plenty of precedent for this sort of thing happening, so it's not an unreasonable presupposition.

                      Or hell it could have just been a zoonotic leap between species due to their medieval food systems the CCP has signally failed to tackle, it doesn’t really matter, in this context.

                      But my sense is that what happened after that is where the mystery deepens. At the very least the CCP are gaming their self-inflicted disaster into a propaganda win. Not only are too many people buying into it (because racist), but it disheartens many ordinary Chinese who loath the CCP and want an end to their enslavement.

                    • Incognito []
                      21 March 2020 at 8:21 pm

                      COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin

                      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 8:27 pm

                      Hey, how about you store your pointless senses somewhere productive for the duration, yeah?

                      You know, until actual reality stops being so terrifying to so many people. Speaking for myself, I've got a workplace set to do as much as possible from home, an elderly relative in self-iso, a sibling with a job fast-disappearing, and an immun-compromised friend off work in self-iso.

                      What, exactly, do your fucking spidey-senses do to improve the the emotional landscapes and personal threat assessments they and hundreds of thousands like them have to perform every fucking moment of the day?

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 8:47 pm

                      @Incognito

                      Good link thanks, which states critically:

                      But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

                      And that is the whole point of the 2015 paper in Nature, that they were using novel coronavirus's found in bats for research purposes. Back then they published one version that was the result of a recombination with the original SARs. Their US lab partner deemed the work too dangerous and destroyed everything at their end, and recommended the same in Wuhan.

                      But there was never any confirmation they did so, nor that they didn't carry on with the work on other novel bat virus's. So yes it's perfectly reasonable to think they may have been working with a virus that was completely unknown outside the Wuhan lab.

                      The existence of the 2015 paper is that it is incontrovertible proof they were working in this exact field at that time.

                      @McF

                      Everyone is dealing with a cascade of consequences right now. If you don't want to participate in this little thread right now I totally get it.

                    • Incognito []
                      21 March 2020 at 9:14 pm

                      I just noticed that Francesca @ 1.2.4.1.3 also responded to you and linked to the same Nature article. The evidence that this is a bioengineered virus seems lacking. This doesn’t mean it didn’t escape from a lab, of course. The more scary implication, however, is that it jumped species (i.e. to human) in a completely natural way and that this can happen again in future.

                      Anyway, the answers to these and other interesting and pertinent questions won’t help us much with dealing with the present ‘aftermath’ of what happened, however it happened.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 8:57 pm

                      But I have a duty to, because pandemics don't just kill from the disease directly. They can also kill by the fear they create, and that fear is stoked and directed by people insisting on spreading rumours based on what they "sense".

                      Asians are already getting shit for this. I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 9:16 pm

                      I'm sure you focus on the middle "C" in "CCP" when talking about "self-inflicted", but not even you can be so tone-deaf to not notice how others might focus on the first "C"?

                      Yes you are absolutely correct on the first part of that. Still it's hard not to notice that the second is the same card the CCP play everytime they yell 'racist' when they want to shut down any thing they don't like.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 9:26 pm

                      And yet it can also be true.

                      Dolt45 knew which buttons he was pushing when he went for "Chinese" virus rather than "communist" virus. If you were unaware such buttons existed in many nations, well, now you know.

                      So kindly come up with proof, or keep your senses to your damned self.

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 9:55 pm

                      Do you want a long list of diseases that are named after places or countries. How about Lyme disease?

                      Lyme disease was first recognized in 1975 after researchers investigated why unusually large numbers of children were being diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis in Lyme, Connecticut, and two neighboring towns.

                      And many other examples exist.

                      Trump started calling the "Chinese Virus" when various CCP mouthpieces repeatedly claimed that the virus was deliberated released into China by the USA to damage the Chinese economy. Pointed yes … racist only if you insist.

                      Then there was the State run media Xinhua hinting that China could use it's stranglehold on pharmaceutical supplies to "plunge the USA into the mighty sea of coronavirus" by withholding them.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:07 pm

                      🙄

                      I really don't understand how you could be, or why you would pretend to be, so oblivious to the cultural context in which you choose to make your statements.

                      So I will return to the question a few comments ago: how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:58 pm

                      German measles, Zika virus (region in Uganda), Japanese encephalitis, Spanish flu (and is still called this on the WHO website), MERS (Middle Eastern Respitory Syndrome), Marburg virus (Germany again), West Nile virus, Ebola virus (name of a river in the Congo), Legionnaires Disease (from a conference in Philadelphia), Lhassa Fever, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Nawalk virus (also known as norovirus).

                      Then there was Mad Cow disease named after my mother in law cheeky

                      So the idea that we must not name diseases after places, or groups of people for fear of offence or stigmatisation, really is 'snowflake pc gone mad'.

                      how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?

                      Pretty much the same authoritarian reasoning that led the Wuhan administration and police to silence the first doctors who attempted to raise attention about the new disease they were seeing back in December.

                      This crisis is going to have political consequences sooner or later.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 11:13 pm

                      how does your "sense" of how this pandemic started contribute to social stability in a globally-stressful time?

                      Pretty much the same authoritarian reasoning that led the Wuhan administration and police to silence the first doctors who attempted to raise attention about the new disease they were seeing back in December.

                      That's not actually an answer to the question. What good is your "sensing" doing for anyone?

                      Someone recently wrote:

                      In the case of a global pandemic, the correct balance point is right at the authoritarian end of the scale. Just how it always has been.

                      According to that writer, "authoritarian" isn't even a criticism during a global pandemic.

                      This crisis is going to have political consequences sooner or later.

                      Duh.

                      Try later then, when people aren't shitting themselves. Nothing compells you to spread rumours so "political consequences" happen sooner, rather than later.

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 March 2020 at 11:23 pm

                      Another reductionist conflation.

                      The correct response to reports from doctors about a new disease is to investigate and take prompt action, not to use crude intimidation to silence them.

                      The correct action when you already have a global pandemic is to take control as firmly as possible, not to dither for weeks for fear of causing offence to the Chinese.

                      If you can't tell the difference, there isn't much point is discussing this further.

                      As for 'what good this is'? Do you imagine the Chinese people are all docile fools who haven't asked all the same questions and not come to similar conclusions? Because at every turn you seem to be giving the CCP a free pass and ensuring our compliance; while everything orange man bad.

                    • McFlock …
                      21 March 2020 at 11:52 pm

                      So, still no answer then.

                      Carry on, fearmonger rumourmill.

          • francesca 1.2.4.1.3
            21 March 2020 at 2:55 pm

            Here's another article from Nature, more recent than yours

            https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9?sf231596998=1

            "Thus, the high-affinity binding of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to human ACE2 is most likely the result of natural selection on a human or human-like ACE2 that permits another optimal binding solution to arise. This is strong evidence that SARS-CoV-2 is not the product of purposeful manipulation."

            I was directed to this by a tweet from Dotcom

            And if we're heading into conspiracy territory, there's this:

            https://wjla.com/news/local/cdc-shut-down-army-germ-lab-health-concerns

            More links about the viruses they were studying soon

            Fort Detrick as you will know has been involved in bio weaponry for a very long time, LSD in the 50's

            https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/15/cia-fort-detrick-stephen-kinzer-228109

        • Stunned Mullet 1.2.4.2
          21 March 2020 at 12:15 pm

          @bill – as has been happening in china for sometime and more often in recent times, when you shove that many people and other live species in close contact things have an increasing chance of shitting themselves.

          Perhaps we should follow Ed's advice and make the world go vegetarian – when was the last time anyone caught an infectious disease from a turnip ?

          • bill 1.2.4.2.1
            21 March 2020 at 1:54 pm

            COVID 19 is new. It hasn't been "happening in China for some time".

            SARS and MERS are types of coronavirus that China and other places have a fair amount of experience with. But they don't have the characteristic whereby infectious individuals can be asymptomatic.

            If you were merely meaning to suggest that China is a prime location for the emergence of various viruses, then yes – I suspect there's no argument from anyone on that front.

            edit. Sorry. My bad. For whatever reason, I read the first word of your comment as “it”.

          • KJT 1.2.4.2.2
            21 March 2020 at 4:23 pm

            Not turnips, but I seem to recall an issue with cabbages a while ago.

          • lprent 1.2.4.2.3
            21 March 2020 at 6:06 pm

            … when was the last time anyone caught an infectious disease from a turnip ?

            It is simply less likely.

            Humans have been known to get sick from viruses that live in seawater and who normally attach to sea bacteria for their breeding (can't remember the reference right now – but it has happened).

            Viruses aren't that choosy and are opportunistic. Given the number of human targets and sufficient time you'll find that they will will test all pathways.

            • Stunned mullet 1.2.4.2.3.1
              21 March 2020 at 7:46 pm

              It is simply less likely.

              Very very much less likely, there's little commonalties between homo sapiens and the humble turnip that would attract a virus who has chosen vegetables as their host of choice….although looking around the world at the moment i do note the Donald is turning oranger on a daily basis.

    • Anne 1.3
      21 March 2020 at 9:53 am

      Not deliberate imo Redlogix @ 1. Remember information was extremely fluid in those early days and no-one wanted to come across as scaremongering panic artists. Also at that point, anyone asking for all international travel to be stopped would have had their heads chopped off – metaphorically speaking.

      Look what happened to the Chinese doctor who tried to warn the country many months ago they were in for a pandemic. She was publicly reprimanded by their government which must have had awful consequences for her and later died of the disease herself.

      • RedLogix 1.3.1
        21 March 2020 at 11:50 am

        Intent scarcely matters anymore. Here is one thing I do know for certain, there is deep fury with CCP among the Chinese people themselves. And they in turn despair when they see the West swallow CCP 'alternative history' uncritically.

        • Anne 1.3.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 3:29 pm

          Hell, that comes as no surprise whatsoever. Wouldn't trust Putin's Russia for the truth either.

          My comment was directed at the WHO and Dr Tedro etc.etc. – can't be bothered looking up the spelling.

      • CrimzonGhost 1.3.2
        21 March 2020 at 6:06 pm

        Tinfoil hat territory but it's possible she didn't die from the disease but was knocked off for her whistleblowing by the CCP.

        • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.3.2.1
          22 March 2020 at 4:39 am

          Not tinfoil hat material at all!

          A dead martyr is of much more use to the CCP than a live critic.

    • bill 1.4
      21 March 2020 at 11:07 am

      I've been asking much the same questions. When the initial news broke for me it was by way of banner headlines in The Guardian, and my immediate reaction was one of dismissal – the boy had cried wolf before.

      But when China locked down cities…yeah, that's not something done lightly.

      In my mind, and I this said around that time, NZ should have banned cruise ships and, if not entirely closed the borders, introduced strict measures at airports. (And not only for travellers arriving from China)

      But Red. We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others. So this government (in my mind – as others – one that's essentially comprised of dullards who have merely been cunning enough to get their uncertain hands on levers of power) did sweet fuck all that might have "unduly" upset markets.

      And so "here we are" in a shite state of affairs, and still the government is predicating responses on chrematistic factors .

      • RedLogix 1.4.1
        21 March 2020 at 11:19 am

        We live in a word where financial considerations outweigh all others.

        I understand that fully; after all crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly, it will lead to loss and suffering. No govt should take that move lightly.

        But WHO's role in this gave them perfect cover to hesitate for a crucial month.

        • bill 1.4.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 11:39 am

          crash stopping our economies is not a decision to be taken lightly

          The irony being that the US is expecting a 14% contraction in the next quarter, which in context, is greater than what happened in post collapse Russia.

          I'm thinking the masters of capital would have been well served to have hit the pause button for a short spell, although…they can always fall back on disaster capitalism – if we allow them the space and opportunity to.

        • Poission 1.4.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 11:50 am

          But WHO's role in this gave them perfect cover to hesitate for a crucial month.

          The smoking pixels.🫁

          https://twitter.com/shypk/status/1240674804509761538

    • Psycho Milt 1.5
      21 March 2020 at 12:09 pm

      If the rest of the world had stopped all international travel out of China at the start of Feb, instead of now, we would not be facing this crisis.

      The NZ government did bar entry to people travelling from or through China at the start of February, pretty sure Australia did also. Took some bollocks because it was strongly criticised by the Chinese government at the time. Poor response from the WHO is probably down to the same problem as with every other UN organisation: corruption and influence-peddling.

      • RedLogix 1.5.1
        21 March 2020 at 12:24 pm

        True but when only Australia and NZ did this (and full credit to them) and most other countries did not, then our policy was rendered ineffective due to the obvious barn-sized backdoor.

    • KJT 1.6
      21 March 2020 at 3:40 pm

      Changed your mind about being "authoritarian to ensure people's safety. Eh?

      • RedLogix 1.6.1
        21 March 2020 at 8:52 pm

        Reductionist idiocy. If you had bothered to actually read any of what I was saying about gun control, instead of just reflexively projecting onto me, you would have noted me repeatedly acknowledging that the safety/liberty equation is a balance which varies according to context and circumstance.

        In the case of a global pandemic, the correct balance point is right at the authoritarian end of the scale. Just how it always has been.

  2. bwaghorn 2
    21 March 2020 at 8:21 am

    What if all the banks and loan agencies just decided to stop taking repayments for 6 months . ? No interest? They would lose no profit in the long run .

    • Blazer 2.1
      21 March 2020 at 8:24 am

      what about their bonus'…get your priorities right.

      • bwaghorn 2.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 8:30 am

        Hee.

        But seriously could it be done?

        • AB 2.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 9:15 am

          They'd try to make up any losses by robbing their depositors through haircuts

          • Ad 2.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 9:29 am

            Whereas little old Kiwibank has an even tighter relationship:

            Owned 49% by ACC and NZSuperfund, 51% by NZPost two large branches of corporate government are propping up another. When you look who is on those Boards and senior executives of them all, what you discover is a very tight clique of super-executive-bureaucrat hybrids who operate this country's major pools of public capital like one long uninterrupted secret conversation.

            And for a country in extremis like we are going into, that's actually not a bad thing. Something like the analogy for making sausages.

    • Ad 2.2
      21 March 2020 at 8:30 am

      What the banks will be taking most note of is which governments were the first to fold by essentially underwriting mortgage payments.

      They'll put that in the book for next time.

    • SPC 2.3
      21 March 2020 at 9:08 am

      The "quid pro quo" for bailing out the retail banks (no losses on their mortgage for property lending) is government financing their expenses with social credit rather than debt.

    • Sabine 2.4
      21 March 2020 at 2:34 pm

      I have been asking for that for a few weeks now.

      But i was told that we should apply for a credit with the bank, can't interfere with making some profit via some disaster capitalism.

  3. Robert Guyton 3
    21 March 2020 at 9:12 am

    Am I right in thinking that the spread of this season's flu will be greatly reduced, even defeated, because of the social-dstancing/hand-washing etc, undertaken by New Zealanders in response to COVID 19?

    • Ad 3.1
      21 March 2020 at 9:25 am

      More likely everyone taking up the company 'flu shots like never before.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 9:35 am

        Should they bother? If my suppose is correct, no one will need them – yes?

        • Ad 3.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 9:39 am

          OMG Robert go back to the garden.

          The reason we have 'flu shots is to stop the hospitals being overwhelmed even more than they are about to be.

          If there is a 'flu shot available to you, get it.

          • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 9:47 am

            I don't follow your argument, Ad. If flu doesn't spread, there will be no "overwhelming" of the hospitals. Surely, doctors have better things to do with their time, during an outbreak of COVID 19, than give flu jabs?

            • Ad 3.1.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2020 at 9:51 am

              Nurses give jabs for the 'flu Robert.

              There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year, but every year hospital beds get filled up with people with the 'flu.

              Seriously don't to medical what-ifs at a time like this, and follow the advice.

              • Robert Guyton …
                21 March 2020 at 9:57 am

                "There is no reason to assume the common 'flu will be any better or se than any other year"

                Isn't there?

                I was wondering if the considerable changes being made to reduce the spread of COVID 19 might also reduce the spread of the flu. Seems logical, but you don't think so? That's okay. Curious how you are so anxious about even floating such an idea.

                • Ad …
                  21 March 2020 at 10:00 am

                  Let me see, Robert.

                  You're curious how there's some anxiety about you proposing that people should not get the 'flu shot this year.

                  We are in very close to full martial law and you're wondering why people get a bit anxious.

                  Stop speculating Robert and – follow the advice.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    21 March 2020 at 10:04 am

                    I haven't proposed that people should not get the flu shot this year, Ad.

                    I've wondered aloud whether the measures taken against COVID 19 might reduce or eliminate the incidence of flu in NZ.

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:10 am

                      True, but you did wonder if people should bother. I think those that are good with getting vaccinated should make the effort, because we don't know how things will play out, so it's an erring on the side of caution thing. We need lots of that.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:31 am

                      Hmmmm…I'm loathe to niggle you, weka, but I wrote,

                      "Should they bother? If my suppose is correct…"

                      "If" is the qualifier. If the new practices brought about to counter the spread of COVID 19 don't work in the case of the flu, then I don't challenge the need for the flu jab. If they do mean there's no or minimal spread of the flu, then my proposal has validity, perhaps. But not to be discussed here on TS, it seems. Back to the garden for me. I'm harvesting oyster mushrooms that I grew on straw in the underground wine cellar I dug; it's damp and dark in there and the fungi love it!

                    • greywarshark …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:53 am

                      Robert I hope you have a look later on after the mushrooms, and can tell me about this – I have been putting some rinse water from the washing machine after I have used mild laundry detergent called woolwash, on my cherry plum tree. I know there are still traces of the detergent in the water as there is some bubbling from it. The tree has leaves that look a bit dull and droopy on the nearest side to the runoff of rinse water.

                      My question – could I be harming the old tree, some of which is dying off anyway, with this water? The other side is looking fine.

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:55 am

                      that's a bit black and white, I think you are missing the greys (we don't know, it will depend, there will still be some flu but we don't know how much).

                      It's seems clear that hygiene and distancing will have an impact on flu transmission.

                      It's not that it can't be discussed, it's that many people have a low tolerance at the moment for speculation about public health matters and this colours how they respond. Asking the question was good imo, because there will be others wondering the same thing. Ad's tetchiness probably didn't help that conversation go well, but people are managing their stress in lots of different ways.

                      You have a wine and fungi cellar! Did you do your own straw innoculation? I'm waiting for it to warm up a bit so I can plant out some seedlings.

                  • greywarshark …
                    21 March 2020 at 10:45 am

                    If commenters go deeper with a question, a wondering if, and not just reaction to a previous thought, there will be a depth to the blog that tends to shallow out at times.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.1.2
              21 March 2020 at 9:55 am

              I don't think NZ is up to speed enough yet with social distancing and hand washing for it to have such a big effect, but I'm sure it will have some. The principle that Ad states is still sound, maybe flu gets reduced 50% from our actions, that's still a lot for the health system to deal with.

              I expect some of that drop will be reversed by the high stress states people are in.

              People who get flu now may be more susceptible to covid later due to being run down.

              People who won't want a flu vaccine, that's fine imo but they need to take more care in not spreading that virus.

              Afaik, vaccines are being prioritised atm for people that really need them.

              • weka …
                21 March 2020 at 10:00 am

                btw, for people like myself who are used to managing our health without vaccines currently, we need to prepare for having a covid vaccine when it becomes available. I'll talk to my GP about that when the time comes (there's some complications for me), and we have no idea what the situation will be globally or in NZ by the time a vaccine becomes available, but there's a shift in parts of the culture that need to happen here. For many the vaccine is to protect others.

                Hard core anti-vaxers are going to find their world view seriously challenged. Fortunately I've seen the anti-vaxer conspiracy theories around covid dropping off so maybe it won't be such an issue.

              • Robert Guyton …
                21 March 2020 at 10:01 am

                "I don't think NZ is up to speed enough yet with social distancing and hand washing for it to have such a big effect"

                What does that mean, I wonder, for the spread of COVID 19 then? Doesn't sound very encouraging, weka.

                • weka …
                  21 March 2020 at 10:06 am

                  We don't yet have any community transmission, and we are in a process of learning new skills and getting better all the time. I think we're doing really well, and it's good to be aware of the things that aren't quite there yet.

                  The last week will have woken a lot of people up though.

                  I visited a friend last night and had a cup of tea and yarn. I washed my hands when I arrived, but didn't when I left (I did when I got home). We sat across the table from each other and I wasn't thinking about the tea cup I was drinking from. A lot of that will change once we have CV in the community locally. It takes time for people to learn how to do what in the right order, especially people in risk categories (both myself and my friend).

                  I'm getting better at not touching my face 🙂

                  • Kay …
                    21 March 2020 at 11:01 am

                    Me too weka 🙂 That face touching thing is quite a thing to unlearn, isn't it?!

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 11:12 am

                      It is! I'm finding that different kinds of clothing help eg a loose shirt yesterday made it easier to scratch an itch on my face in various ways. I assume once we have community covid, that approach will mean more clothing washing too, but dependent upon probably exposure. I'm tending to think if it gets bad where I am I'll have to stay home mostly as the logistics of all that extra cleaning beyond handwashing are probably not possible for me to manage well.

                    • patricia …
                      21 March 2020 at 3:40 pm

                      Our son tells us spray the mail. Yes a great deal to think about.

                      Car door handles steering wheel and mirror. The list is never ending. Shoes off at the door and house slippers also makes sense when you see people spit.

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 4:13 pm

                      Mail and boxes can be left at the door for 24 hours (seems to be the recommendation for cardboard anyway).

                  • bill …
                    21 March 2020 at 11:32 am

                    We don't yet have any community transmission

                    A few people have been saying this, and I'm genuinely puzzled by the assertion. "We don't have community transmission" is quite a step beyond "we haven't detected community transmission".

                    There are (I don't know how many) school kids who were meant to be in isolation in Dunedin – school kids who were spotted in the city centre. Then there are those cruise ship passengers who visited Dunedin and elsewhere who have been diagnosed as having COVID 19. Throw in however many asymptomatic people were coming through those airports until a few days ago…

                    We can state that community transmission hasn't been detected. Whether or not there actually is community transmission is a different kettle of fish. But I guess we'll be in a position to say one way or the other with some confidence in a wee while.

                • francesca …
                  21 March 2020 at 10:42 am

                  I read a week ago that the enthusiastic uptake of handwashing in Hong Kong has seen a marked reduction in all contagious diseases

                  Can't find the link though

            • Andre 3.1.1.1.1.3
              21 March 2020 at 10:00 am

              Everyone getting flu jabs is one very simple low-cost thing everyone can do to reduce the burden on the health system in anticipation of the likely massive load coming up. On top of extra hand-washing and maintaining extra physical distance from others.

              All of these actions have cumulative effects, each one reducing the burden on the health system a bit more.

              Hand washing and physical distancing will reduce flu a bit, not eliminate it. More people getting flu jabs will reduce the flu season still further, not eliminate it. But if fewer people take up flu jabs, incorrectly thinking that extra hand-washing and extra distancing will protect them, then we're likely to have an extra-bad flu season on top of the expected COVID-19 problem.

            • Anne 3.1.1.1.1.4
              21 March 2020 at 10:05 am

              If flu doesn't spread, there will be no "overwhelming" of the hospitals.

              The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it. Even then it is not a 100% guarantee, but at least those who succumb are likely to be mild cases only. That frees up the time, energy and space for those at the medical front line to be able to concentrate on the corona virus cases.

              • weka …
                21 March 2020 at 10:08 am

                "The only way we can be sure the flu won't spread is to make sure the bulk of the population is vaccinated against it"

                Unfortunately the flu vaccine is not that effective. I think it's more a harm minimisation thing. Those that can get the vaccine and want to should. As with other vaccine issues, the small number of people that don't want to are less of an issue than those that do but don't access it for whatever reason (or don't care either way but will get vaccinated this time for all those reasons).

                • Anne …
                  21 March 2020 at 10:20 am

                  Unfortunately the flu vaccine is not that effective.

                  I agree, it doesn't seem to work that well with some people. However, since I started to have 'the jab' each year I have been free of flu.

                  When the Swine flu pandemic raged some years ago I caught it. However, according to my doctor, I didn't have to go to hospital because the general flu vaccine of the day had given me some protection from the severity of the symptoms.

                  It was a similar situation to the current virus although granted this one is even more serious.

                  • weka …
                    21 March 2020 at 10:29 am

                    Swine flu is an influenza virus. I don't think the flu vaccine will give protection of severity in covid. We're doing it for different reasons.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  21 March 2020 at 10:22 am

                  So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?

                  Where is the flu virus right now? Here in NZ? Overseas? Yet to be generated? If it's overseas still, how might it get here, given the travel restrictions? Will it wait till those are lifted?

                  • weka …
                    21 March 2020 at 10:27 am

                    "So, in summing-up, the processes being put in place will work for COVID 19 but won't work for the flu?"

                    Not sure how you go that Robert. Handwashing and social distancing and social isolation will have an impact on flu transmission, but we don't know to what extent and it can't be relied upon enough to change public health messaging that people should get a flu vaccine to limit strain on the health system if we get a widespread covid outbreak.

                    There's always flu in NZ. It gets worse in winter (because of the environment?). Yes, we will get less new strains because of no more tourists, but again, we don't know yet how this will play out, hence erring on the side of caution.

                    • lprent …
                      21 March 2020 at 6:20 pm

                      It gets worse in winter (because of the environment?).

                      Because human immune responses get depressed when your core body temp is colder. Or where there are large changes in external environments.

                      Just about the first defense mechanism that is triggered against infections is that the fluid temps in the body are raised. Bacteria and viruses usually have limited working temp ranges that they can thrive in. It also makes the flow of anti-bodies and other defenses move faster and increases the rate of production of t-cells.

                      The faster the external environment is at tearing body heat away, the harder it is to activate immune systems. But often it seems like changes in environment cause issues. You get adapted to the climate (I really noticed that when in Singapore in 2018)

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 7:04 pm

                      So being in a warm office with less clothes on and going out into a cold, damp day? (office worker)

                      Or being cold all the time (poor person)

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    21 March 2020 at 2:26 pm

                    The measures being advised to reduce spread of covid-19 will probably also reduce the spread of flu, but it there's a vaccine for either you should get it. "Reduced" isn't the same as stopped, and if you end up catching one of them while sick with the other you could be in some serious shit.

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 7:06 pm

                      I was wondering if that happens (getting two respiratory viruses at the same time). I've been assuming we don't because the immune system gets activated with the first one making a similar viral illness at the same time unlikely. But a bacterial infection might be more likely.

            • peterh 3.1.1.1.1.5
              21 March 2020 at 10:40 am

              You can get it at the chemist

      • francesca 3.1.2
        21 March 2020 at 9:44 am

        And increased hand washing will reduce other contagious diseases

      • lprent 3.1.3
        21 March 2020 at 6:11 pm

        We all went to work from home this week. I'd have to go to work to get a company flu-shot… I have done it once when the usual checkup was too late into flu season.

        I'd have to go to the doctor for my usual flu-shot… And I have to go there every 3 months for a prescription.

        I'm not that happy about going anywhere where other people are at present.

        Is there any way that I can get a remote prescription for the heart meds and a virtual flu vaccine? 🙂

    • I Feel Love 3.2
      21 March 2020 at 11:24 am

      Health care workers are more worried about stress related illnesses and the people eating all their hoarded frozen pizzas…

    • AB 3.3
      21 March 2020 at 11:34 am

      Belt and braces I think.

      Some anecdata – since working more from home and getting a regular flu shot. I haven't had flu for 5-10 years. Colds – yes, but fewer. Both vaccines and distancing work in their way. A relative is a nurse and hates winter because of the load of flu cases. If we can take some of that additional burden off our healthcare workers we owe it to them to try.

    • Sabine 3.4
      21 March 2020 at 2:34 pm

      no.

    • Adam Ash 3.5
      21 March 2020 at 10:15 pm

      Gosh! If we all stay abed for long enough we may even halt excessive greenhouse gas emissions and thus eliminate risk of undesirable climate changes. Now that would be a useful unanticipated consequence!

  4. Fireblade 4
    21 March 2020 at 11:11 am

    The Prime Minister is to give a statement to the nation at midday today.

    The statement will be broadcast on RNZ and TVNZ.

    • weka 6.1
      21 March 2020 at 11:58 am

      haha. I do feel for apartment dwellers in places in lock down.

    • The Al1en 6.2
      21 March 2020 at 12:00 pm

      Walk in closet 1 today, closet 2 tomorrow. Sorted.

    • Anne 6.3
      21 March 2020 at 3:56 pm

      I plan to go for a little drive every day. Dunno where but will work it out on the day. Have a wee stroll somewhere keeping two metres away from other wandering mortals. Perhaps the East Coast greeting as we pass. Mind you, that's dependent upon petrol still being available.

      Oh dear, its a real worry.

      • Macro 6.3.1
        21 March 2020 at 5:10 pm

        Now that I cannot take the dance classes, and I try to limit the number of times I mw the lawns; I've ben working in the garage/workshop "Tidying" up and finishing off working on my 1957 R50 BMW motorbike. (It has quite a history having been originally bought in Pretoria South Africa, ridden up through Africa, around the Continent, down through the Middle East – as you could in those days – to India. Shipped to Perth WA and across the Nullabour to Melbourne and then shipped to Wellington where the original owner had had enough, and sold it, and I bought it in the middle '60's and have owned it ever since.)

        But just these past few days I have been doing some baking each afternoon. Date loaf, scones, ginger nuts, tomorrow I plan Loch Katrine Cake.

        There should be no shortage of petrol over the coming months – I see the price has been dropping over the past week here. Down to around $1.95 after discount.

        Yes it is a worry. I do my shopping early morning or late evening if I can now and that avoids the mad rush. Here the shelves are starting to be replenished and they have extra stackers in during the day as well so the supply side is being addressed. If only the demand side would settle down to normal we would be ok.

        I don't normally use my credit card for shopping here, but they have pay wave so you avoid contacting the eftpos touch pad. I have now joined the younger set, and wave my way through the checkout. 🙂

      • lprent 6.3.2
        21 March 2020 at 6:27 pm

        I've started longing for the daily bike after 4 days without the week-day commute. Mostly electricity and a bit of muscle.

  7. Karl Sinclair 7
    21 March 2020 at 11:58 am

    Examining logic

    The Govt says we should not close schools now as the old people looking after the children maybe at risk. Did the media ever ask the questions, how many families did it really involve. Here are some views

    All high school students and even intermediate students can be at home (whats that as percentage of total school children). If the have younger siblings they can look after them while their parents are at work. Other work arounds for the young ones can be achieved (are we not the number 8 wire gen).

    For those families where grandparents are the only caregivers, their children would be best off at home as they would more likely be contaminated at school.

    I'm shocked at the in ability of our media (to ask probing Qs) and Gov to not think outside the box. They have not acted quick enough or decisively enough. Please, we need more and better restrictions…..

    Social distancing is not happening at schools. We should also shut all pubs, clubs etc

    Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick…………..

    To the people who have already stated, we need to go fast and hard and use Korea models, well done.

    One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:

    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

    • Cinny 7.1
      21 March 2020 at 12:41 pm

      karl, you do know there is a plan re schools….schools will probably end up closing as we go through the different stages of the plan.

      No school in the weekend, no school sports either and that's where we are at today, Saturday. We haven't got to Sunday yet and Monday is still two sleeps away.

      The Government is poised to provide home internet and laptop or tablet devices for about 70,000 schoolchildren in the event that schools have to close due to coronavirus.

      karl, do you have school aged children?

      • I Feel Love 7.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 3:19 pm

        Yes Cinny, schools are indeed getting prepared to shut down, shit takes planning, and tomorrow there will be a new plan, and the next day a new plan etc … if people are that terrified of their kids being at school keep them home, my kids teachers are saying only half the kids are showing up anyway. Clean your hands, keep your distance, think for yourself.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.2
        21 March 2020 at 4:21 pm

        Why are we anxious about "children's education" in the face of a pandemic???

        Providing laptops and tablets – pleeeease!

        Spend some time with the trees.

        • Cinny 7.1.2.1
          21 March 2020 at 4:58 pm

          Lmao!

          Those not in the city be like…. stack the wood, dig over the garden, yes you can make dinner, come on kids let's clean the guttering, wipe out the cupboards, bike ride maybe?

          Already making a list, going to call it part of the pandemic plan….kids can't argue with that 🙂

          The tricky bit is, for some parents, if their kids have no school then the grandparents look after them. For some of those grandparents they are in the at risk category. And grandparents are usually ace when it comes to keeping kids off their devices 🙂

          • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 5:13 pm

            I am grandparent. I am not at risk. Give me grandchildren. They will sit in wheelbarrow – I will leg it. We will swim in estuary, there will be ice blocks, the day will pass. We will sleep well.

    • bill 7.2
      21 March 2020 at 2:16 pm

      Good link. Interesting time line.

      In 5 days, China went from detecting a couple of cases of unusual pneumonia to alerting WHO; closed food markets within a week and had shut down 15 cities within the month.

      And a week after all of that (Jan 30), WHO declared an international public health emergency.

      Was talking with my sister yesterday evening. She lives in Scotland. Schools are shut for all but the children of "front line workers" and teachers. Special provisions have been put in place for them so they can still attend classes. And "working from home" measures have been put in place for those who can (she can't).

      Meanwhile, all sporting venues and gyms have been shut, which I only mention because I thought it quite amusing that golf courses were included 🙂

      This morning's headlines from the UK were around closing pubs etc.

  8. weka 8
    21 March 2020 at 12:01 pm

    Live stream of Ardern

  9. Karl Sinclair 9
    21 March 2020 at 12:24 pm

    Just watching the national address……..

    Did NZ Inc really go hard and fast????? Really, man I must be on another planet.

    I think we as a Nation are too chillaxed, the media are soooo average. From the outside looking in, the Gov and the media seem to form a little love bubble……

    Risk = Probability x Consequence

    We KNOW, that other countries are exploding at the moment (feed that into your probability above).

    If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?

    What would YOU DO?

    Unknowns (effects probability…… there are tooooo many):

    1. Incubation period outliers (eg 24 days)

    2. The spread by people who have no visible symptoms

    3. The length of time the virus lives on various substrates

    4. The real effect on younger people health

    5. The number of people infected in NZ that we dont know about

    6. Potential terrorist or otherwise purposeful transmission

    7. The real social network spreading by schools and other gatherings

    One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:

    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

    • observer 9.1
      21 March 2020 at 12:37 pm

      You talk about "unknowns", but don't seem to consider them.

      A shutdown effectively means martial law (how are you proposing to enforce it?). Your #2 includes the entire population.

      The number of casualties from shooting curfew-breakers would surpass Covid-19 in no time.

    • weka 9.2
      21 March 2020 at 12:37 pm

      "If you really do a risk analysis, would you not shut down the country?"

      You could, but you'd have to balance that with the damage done by a hard crash. If we have a pandemic that was killing 50% of the population I think that would have happened. The big issue here is to flatten the curve. Much of the high death rate is (probably) related to how fast and hard the virus hit and that was in countries that had different strategies to NZ.

      edit, bearing in mind that this crisis will last a long time. This isn’t going to be over in a few months.

      • Karl Sinclair 9.2.1
        21 March 2020 at 12:58 pm

        Fair point Weka, but would we not be better placed than everyone else if we get no spread.. We would be in a reallly good position economically etc

        Whats ya thoughts

        I really like this guy, he is on it: Michael Baker Prof of Public Health (hes on RNZ now),

        I would suggest Jacinder listen to him. He is well spoken, educated and is evidenced based and willing to speak out. Please NZ Inc listen to this guy

        • weka 9.2.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 1:02 pm

          yeah, he was good. I suspect we will go to Level 3 soon, someone on RNZ said it's likely once we get confirmation of community transmission.

          I think alot of the debate is around whether NZ had the potential to have no community transmission ever. I'm not sure that that was ever possibly. If we had shut our borders absolutely, so not letting kiwis back in, and then locking up people with symptoms and people they'd been in contact with, that's probably beyond what we can cope with economically, logistically and socially. Maybe politically too.

        • observer 9.2.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 1:11 pm

          "We would be in a really good position economically etc"

          Even if we had no cases of Covid-19, we would have no influence whatsoever on the global economy. And we'd hardly be saying "We are virus-free, come visit NZ!".

          So our position would be the same.

        • Incognito 9.2.1.3
          21 March 2020 at 1:21 pm

          How do you know that the Government is not already receiving and considering this/his advice and integrating with all the other information it is receiving from all sorts of other sources and directions as well, not just medical? Absence of evidence (i.e. not doing exactly what you want and what Prof Baker is arguing) is not evidence of absence (i.e. the Government not taking on board everything but sticking its fingers in its ears).

        • Psycho Milt 9.2.1.4
          21 March 2020 at 2:37 pm

          "Shut down the country" comes at a huge cost, and not just an economic one. There's also the social cost of forcing isolation on people, and there's the political cost of depriving your voters of their liberty, which you won't do without a really fucking good reason if you want them to vote for you again.

          So, what would have been gained from imposing martial law and depriving people of their liberty a few weeks ago? There isn't any keeping the virus out, there's only slowing it down so it doesn't overwhelm the health system, so it's not like we'd be spared the epidemic by such drastic measures. Where's the benefit?

          As to the cost, look at the economic damage that's going to be wreaked just by the restrictions that have already been imposed. If those restrictions had been imposed a month earlier, we'd already have trashed the economy by now, for the sake of having a lower number of cases than the 50-odd we have now. Any government that thought that was a good cost/benefit ratio would be unfit to govern. Which is why the government is advised by experts in public health and epidemiology, rather than reckons from people on the Internet.

  10. Rosemary McDonald 10
    21 March 2020 at 12:28 pm

    Just asking…how long has Ardern had the photo of Savage smiling paternally down over her left shoulder?

    Since the monumental PR blunder of Back Then when they launched the dismal failure that was Kiwibuld and tried to pass off Kiwibuild as some modern day Savage inspired State Housing plan… you'd think they'd steer clear of having Our Leader channeling Savage.

    It's wrong. And it undermines the Government's credibility.

    Ardern and her government haven't earned the right yet.

    Perhaps more of us should listen to the interview found over on The Daily Blog between Bryan Bruce and Susan St John.

    😉

    • observer 10.1
      21 March 2020 at 12:32 pm

      Yes, that's the big issue today. A photograph.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 12:41 pm

        It's all about the messaging observer, all about the messaging.

        • Peter 10.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 8:55 pm

          The flag was there too. What's that about? I haven't seen any complaints about the colour of the clothes she was wearing and how she did her har. No doubt someone has complained. A headscarf would have been good for a laugh.

        • Anne 10.1.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 9:07 pm

          The state of the Nation speech took place in the Prime Minister's office Rosemary.

          Jacinda Ardern is entitled to hang a picture of whoever she likes in her own office. The reason we have never seen it before is because it is very unusual for a PM to make a speech from the Office of the Prime Minister. It's normally off limits to members of the public and the media.

          But these are extraordinary times requiring extraordinary measures.

      • I Feel Love 10.1.2
        21 March 2020 at 3:24 pm

        Observer, Ha!!! I reckon.

  11. Karl Sinclair 11
    21 March 2020 at 12:35 pm

    The virus does not really care about the Govs alert levels and f*^&*ing Framework

    Risk = Probability X Consequence

    Use ya head….. Just the consequence alone is enough

  13. Karl Sinclair 13
    21 March 2020 at 12:44 pm

    Michael Baker Prof of Public Health is wanting to get ahead of the game…

    Good on ya

    One of the best articles I have seen recommended by a top physicist:

    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

    • Cinny 13.1
      21 March 2020 at 12:47 pm

      From your link karl……

      Anyone can publish on Medium per our Policies, but we don’t fact-check every story. For more info about the coronavirus, see cdc.gov.

      • Karl Sinclair 13.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 12:59 pm

        Did you read it? Would love your opinion

        • Cinny 13.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 1:36 pm

          The writer appears to have done much analysis of how other countries have/are handling the situation. Theres some interesting content there.

          No doubt said piece is doing the rounds as the writer is a creator of viral applications, has a billion dollar company and the topical material has all the key words search engines would index. $$$$$$$

          Anyways…. 🙂 This is how I see it… if communication is engaged then hopefully the virus won't get a grip here. Government, media, word of mouth, social media etc correctly informing people on what to do, keeping people updated and aware (rather than stressed and terrified – people can make bad choices when they are freaking out). Our government is doing a fantastic job making sure people are accurately informed.

          China used an enormous ammount of military muscle to ensure people were doing as they were told, personally I found it a bit disturbing, but that's how China rolls. How about those Chinese celeb's feel good video to tone down the aspect of military force re the virus? Wowzers!

          Am also rather skeptical of the numbers China has reported. Which makes me mindful of any virus anlaysis re Chinese data.

          I'm full of praise for our government, the website https://covid19.govt.nz/ is brilliant.

          This particular link https://covid19.govt.nz/help-and-advice/resources/ has allowed me to print out a stack of posters and plaster them all over our office window this morning. I encourage any one with a business or office with high foot traffic to do the same.

          • Cinny 13.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 1:43 pm

            Here's the bizzare video, it's from over a month ago

            For a 2min clip with english subtitles, go to 22.50 on this link

            For the full video this link


          • lprent 13.1.1.1.2
            21 March 2020 at 6:44 pm

            China used an enormous ammount of military muscle to ensure people were doing as they were told, personally I found it a bit disturbing, but that's how China rolls.

            When we go into phase 3, I suspect that we start using the police and the military to enforce as well.

            There are always dickheads who really couldn't give a rats arse about others and who will recklessly endanger others. Personally I'd favour judge making orders, a prompt island quarantine for them with an armed guard detachment and kill orders. They can appeal after the emergency has diminished.

            It is a far better choice than throwing them into an all-ready overcrowded prison system. I vaguely remember that all of that was all covered in the available civil emergency orders.

            Incidentally, they should be looking to start releasing low risk and remand prisoners (if they haven't already). Reducing crowding in the prison system is the only way that they will suppress potential outbreaks there.

    • weka 13.2
      21 March 2020 at 1:04 pm

      I read a chunk of that the other day. I think he's missing some important parts, and I'd like to see some informed critique of his position. He's not an epidemiologist nor a pandemic management expert.

      I do agree that people need to be staying home now as much as possible. I've been more careful for the past fortnight.

  14. Karl Sinclair 14
    21 March 2020 at 1:27 pm

    Michael Baker Prof of Public Health is on to it in terms of suggesting going harder than what the current Govt is doing. Just to support Michael:

    Take for example the Flights landed into NZ at the airport on 18th March. This is just the tip of the iceberg (and this is just a sample of one airport in NZ)

    If you take into consideration the list of unknowns I mentioned above (see post 9), like some people not having symptoms then factor it into the below……your ability to contact trace is shot to hell… Now include all the other international airports in NZ and the flights that came over the last few months……

    Risk = Probability X Consequence

    The flight information below is provided to Auckland Airport by the airlines,

    [Deleted long list of flights with numbers and arrival times and replaced with link: https://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/flights – Incognito]

    • Incognito 14.1
      21 March 2020 at 1:47 pm

      Please provide a link to the flight information from which you got that abbreviated sample as it is too long and does not contain pertinent info. I will delete or drastically shorten the list shortly but I’m happy to put in a link if you can provide one.

      • Andre 14.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 2:42 pm

        … not to mention the multiple repeats of the same flight, such as 6 repeats of QF153 and 4 of NZ124 …

        Meanwhile, since the airport is the biggest source of transport noise at my place, I’m definitely lovin’ the reduced number of flights over the past week or two.

        • Karl Sinclair 14.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 2:55 pm

          Cheers Andre, there are errors due to the speed with which the list was edited.

          The point is to highlight….. there were soooooo many flights into NZ. The risk of infection is high with no way of tracing all social interations.

        • Karl Sinclair 14.1.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 3:04 pm

          Andre, thanks….. example of too much coffee and not concentrating
          The data has much more flights than that

      • Karl Sinclair 14.1.2
        21 March 2020 at 2:52 pm

        Hi Incognito

        Thanks, I see your point, was just trying to hit home the point there were a lot of flights into NZ and we wont be able to trace all the social interactions.

        The site is:

        https://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/flights (they wont show the 18th as its now past)

        • lprent 14.1.2.1
          21 March 2020 at 6:50 pm

          It isn't that relevant as information unless you know the numbers of passengers and staff.

          From what I understand, they’re only really letting NZ passport holders and the immediate family in (and being excessively zealous at that according to one report this morning (that I can’t find)).

          Most of the aircraft are now coming in with limited passengers and, I suspect, mostly to pick up outgoing passengers from our tourists trapped here.

        • veutoviper 14.1.2.2
          21 March 2020 at 7:32 pm

          Re the flights used by people in NZ who have now been confirmed or are suspected of having the virus, the flight information in this list is probably far more relevant than the lists of overall flights in and out of certain airports on certain dates. .

          https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-cases

          The travel information in that list is just the base information being made public.

          The highly sophisticated flight information systems (for both international and domestic flights) available to/used by airlines are capable of providing information for many other uses/agencies, including those of Interpol for example. &nbsp

          I think that these systems are probably being used to identify flights, contact (transit, origin) points, dates, passenger lists etc relevant to persons who are confirmed or suspected of having coronavirus, not only in those in NZ but also those in other countries.

        • Incognito 14.1.2.3
          21 March 2020 at 9:55 pm

          Ta

          I will cut short your list (sorry) and replace with your link.

          Next time, please think of the readers of TS who have to scroll through all of that space with next to useless info, particularly when one simple link will suffice.

  15. Incognito 15
    21 March 2020 at 1:37 pm

    Does anybody know if they will try installing public sanitising or hygiene stations in public, e.g. at the Entrances and Exits of supermarkets? The footwear cleaning hygiene stations in the Waitakere Ranges, for example, were only moderately successful because of compliance issues (i.e. people not using them or not using them correctly). However, these were not aimed at personal health and safety and there was control or close supervision.

    • Editractor 15.1
      21 March 2020 at 2:12 pm

      All three supermarkets in my smallish Waikato town had stations dispensing hand wipes (alcohol based by the smell of it) as of a couple of days ago.

      No idea if it is just a local initiative or nationwide.

      • Incognito 15.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 2:16 pm

        Ta

        • JO 15.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 5:58 pm

          Until yesterday the New World in my small Wairarapa town had a wipe dispenser at the door. It has been empty several times and was missing today. I asked a staff member who said people had been pulling out strings of them and they can't get any more. There's still a small sanitiser station at the main entrance, often hidden behind a raffle table and hard to spot as it's the same colour as the doorway.

          I feel sorry for the frontline staff having to watch their efforts to help abused like this, they have been unfailingly cheerful patient heroes since this upheaval began.

          • weka 15.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 6:55 pm

            I've been amazed at staff being so patient and helpful in various stores I've been dealing with. It's actually makes me feel better about how we're going to manage.

            There are overseas distillers starting to make alcohol for hand sanitisers and making the sanitisers themselves. I've heard rumours of this in NZ too.

    • lprent 15.2
      21 March 2020 at 6:52 pm

      Grey Lynn Countdown had them in this week (and possibly earlier).

      They need signposting.

  16. Janet 16
    21 March 2020 at 2:24 pm

    Bay of Plenty iwi Te Whānau-ā-Apanui closing borders to outsiders

    Iwi leader Rawiri Waititi announced no one outside of the about 1000 residents would be allowed to enter the territory from midnight March 25 for two months.

    I applaud the BOP iwi Te Whanau-a- Apanui closing borders to outsiders.

    In early February, if our leaders had “vision “ they would have closed NZs island borders and we could have lived fairly normal lives – without tourism!

    But “In February it would have seemed unimaginable to close NZ borders to the world. “ according to our PM.

    It was totally imaginable to me at that time.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12318689

    [link added and quote tidied – weka]

    • bwaghorn 16.1
      21 March 2020 at 2:35 pm

      Considering that most nz c19 cases are returning nz citizens shitting the boarders earlier wouldnt have much difference. Unless you're suggesting we dont let kiwis come home

      • Sabine 16.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 2:44 pm

        we should have put them in isolation at the airport. Have the military set up camps, 14 days, two consecutive tests – and if these are negative you may be released into the larger public.

        Having these guys come home and may or may not self isolate was the dumbest fucking thing ever.

        but i have come to the conclusion that the more education people have the less they are able to think logically.

        • weka 16.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 3:13 pm

          How many people have come into the country since the outbreak started in China? And all the people they had close contact with? I can't see how logistically it would have been possible to quarantine them all.

      • Incognito 16.1.2
        21 March 2020 at 10:01 pm

        Those spelling mistakes were great 😀

    • weka 16.2
      21 March 2020 at 2:37 pm

      Janet please provide a link when quoting, every time. Especially important right now with lots of information changing fast.

    • Sabine 16.3
      21 March 2020 at 2:40 pm

      yep.

      it was totally imaginable to us here in tourist land also, as no tourists arrived.

      The few stragglers that came to freedom camp and the few boats – we could have done without them.

      The saddest thing is, that there a people that desperatly want to stay home, take the kids out of school and just stay the fuck at home until this passes but they can't.

      Has Labour cancelled the 12 week standdown for people who can't cope anymore and want to stay home and thus risk being fired?

      Anyone?

      • weka 16.3.1
        21 March 2020 at 2:42 pm

        the stand down for getting the dole was removed across the board a few weeks ago. You can look at the WINZ site to see if there are conditions on that.

        • Sabine 16.3.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 2:49 pm

          good, if that women comes back in for a coffee i will let her know that. Cause she wants to stay home, she wants to take her kids out of school and is afraid that we ill get fired if she does so, and if that happens that she will be stood down by Winz. The only announcment of that that i saw was a few weeks ago, and i linked to the article where the PM stated that 'She was in principe for it".

          And please Weka, can you link to your statement?

          • weka 16.3.1.1.1
            21 March 2020 at 3:05 pm

            short version of what I posted below: mandatory stand down for all benefits is lifted until Nov. Stand down for leaving a job or getting fired is still in place, but I would expect there to be more leeway at the moment.

        • weka 16.3.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 3:01 pm

          Stand-down if you apply for a benefit

          Most weekly benefits have a stand-down. This is a period of time where you can’t get any money from us. It’s usually 1 or 2 weeks after your application is approved.

          The Government has decided to remove stand-downs as part of its response to COVID-19. If you’re eligible for a benefit between 23 March 2020 and 23 November 2020, you won’t have a stand-down.

          You’ll start getting your payments the week after your application is approved. This is because we pay you for the week that’s just been. This is called arrears. We’ll let you know when this happens.

          We’ll also talk with you about ways we may be able to help until you get your first benefit payment.

          About 3/4 way down the page if you open all the thingies first.

          https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/emergencies/2020/coronavirus.html#null

          • weka 16.3.1.2.1
            21 March 2020 at 3:04 pm

            Sorry, that doesn't answer your question. There's this,

            Left your job voluntarily or fired for misconduct

            If you’ve left your job without a good reason or have been fired for misconduct, you may need to wait up to 13 weeks before your payments start.

            If this happens, there are a number of ways we may still be able to help.

            Please contact us to talk about your situation.

            There's quite a bit of discussion on twitter amongst beneficiaries and advocates about how to interpret policy now. There are lots of good reasons for leaving a job now that wouldn't have applied before. Also hearing various reports about how well WINZ is treating people. If someone is in this situation I'd check the policy wording then the legislation. If they're giving 13 week stand downs to people there will be support to go hard out on that, but also there still needs to be a good reason.

            • Sabine 16.3.1.2.1.1
              21 March 2020 at 3:47 pm

              there is no need for a discussion about what that means. It states quite clearly that if you cause your loss of job or you leave your job because you can't cope anymore, you get a stand down period of 13 weeks,.

              Good grief. Good fucking grief.

              • weka …
                21 March 2020 at 4:45 pm

                Sure, some people give up, others like to do the mahi of changing things. I have all respect for the people that force WINZ to change.

                • Sabine …
                  21 March 2020 at 5:34 pm

                  you can discuss this until the end of the day and feel like you are changing things.

                  as of now, people who would like to take their kids out of kindy and stay at home however will have a stand down period of 13weeks if they quit their job, and that is not the fault of Winz, but the current government who had done nothing to change the nature of Winz. The drones at Winz don't make the rules, the follow the orders that come down form the Ministry of Social Welfare.

                  But yeah, chatting on twitter is gonna change things. Sure sure.

                  • weka …
                    21 March 2020 at 6:08 pm

                    You literally have no idea what you are talking about Sabine. There's a long history of changes at WINZ because of the mahi that beneficiaries and advocates do. Not everyone can do that, but your personal beliefs about what is not achievable won't stop other people getting on with it.

                    • weka …
                      21 March 2020 at 6:20 pm

                      13 week stand downs are shit. I remember when they came in, and they're absolutlely a tool of neoliberalism to force a low wage workforce to keep the economy going. They're also part of bludger meme culture. They should have been removed a long time ago.

                      Things is, removing them entirely and suddenly as a stand alone policy during the start of a global emergency where people are shit scared is a recipe for chaos. One thing that would happen is that businesses that are already under huge pressure would suddenly find themselves short of workers. I'm thinking about work that is essential to society continuing to function that upholds wellbeing personal and collective.

                      Changing the criteria around them makes sense, and looking at the policy and law would be a way to understand how to do that. But hey, why bother when one can sit on the internet moaning about pretty much everything. I really hope people don't ask you about this because telling people that Labour are shit and that people can't do anything about their situation strikes me as the opposite of what is needed right now.

                    • Sabine …
                      21 March 2020 at 6:21 pm

                      Weka,

                      i have as many and as much of an idea as to what to do with Winz then you do.

                      But, this thirteen week stand down period is government sanctioned, ordered, and implemented. And thus it is the current governments orders, aka the Labour/Green/NZfirst.

                      And this current government by emergency degree even could have abolished it so that people who can not cope anymore, who are afraid, who would like to stay at home with their children, could leave their jobs and do so.

                      In fact it would be the single smartest thing the Government could do now is to offer people unemployment benefits on demand if they only stay at home.

                      I don't know what type of news you get Weka, mine currently come from France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Holland and Belgium. All places where i have friends and family. I speak the languages, i can listen to their news, and you and this government have no fucking idea of the shit show that is gonna come. full stop.

                      You, I, Bill and all of us should stay at home, the borders should have been closed weeks ago, NZ residence should have been cited home weeks ago, our hospitals should have been put on Red fucking Alert weeks ago. And cruise ships should have been blocked from docking at least since January.

                      And we go to work, because this fucking useless government, this bullshit coalition of the most useless people i have ever come across in government is doing nothing to allow people to stay the fuck at home.

                      Its not only that the hospitals will be over run to the point that if you have a heart attack or a broken bone or a emergency cesarian you can't because there is no bed available, the nurses and doctors themselves are sick and dying – 14 doctors in Italy died alone. In the East of France nurses and doctors will die and the nurses and doctors know this.

                      This virus kills Weka. All ages. It kills.

                      So you can chat on twitter and so on and so forth in the hope of changing something some time, but this is different.

                      Bill is right when he said that all the Government has to do is send a weekly check to everyone for then next 12 odd weeks. It would allow many people to quit their jobs, take their kids out of school and stay the fuck at home.

                      this video under when you click on the link below is from italy for a Belgium TV, its in french, but i think you can understand it anyways.

                      https://www.facebook.com/joel.hasselin/videos/3898381010179814

                    • Descendant Of Smith …
                      21 March 2020 at 10:44 pm

                      Good employers are already telling their staff to stay home and allowing them to work from home or have special leave and so on. Shit employers are not.

                      I remember 9/11 and those workers who had previously left the building dying because they went back in as their shitty employers wouldn't pay them if they didn't.

                      Last thing we need right now is the coercive power of the state supporting those employers and people having to argue with WINZ that they had good cause to leave. People aren't stupid they still need money etc but there are many who have children with lung conditions or are vulnerable themselves and so on. They should have absolute freedom to choose. Have more faith in your fellow citizen – people won't just abandon their employment on a whim. FFS.

                    • weka …
                      22 March 2020 at 10:15 am

                      I'm not sure DoS. If the advice is 'leave your job if you want to and go on the dole', then there will be people who will do that because we are all afraid. Some won't be able to afford to but some will.

                      Obviously there will be people who need to and should be able to, hence my question about how WINZ are interpreting the policy atm.

                      I want my elderly parents' homehelp to stay in place. What's going to happen to them if their worker leaves her job this week? There will be a myriad of examples where conflicting needs and the public health good will clash. I'm more interested in looking at how that whole system works and needs to remain functional, rather than taking single parts of the system and hacking them out of panic.

                      (imo this is what the government is doing, looking at a range of intersecting systems and figuring out how to manage them all the best, understanding that none of them will be ideal).

                      If you can see a way to suddenly remove the 13 week stand down and keep working happening that is essential, I’d be interested. What you appear to be saying is we should rely solely on trusting people. I’m much more trust in god and tie up your camel.

                      It’s not a whim that will have more people leaving their jobs, it’s understandable fear, and some of that fear is not grounded in reality.

                    • Descendant Of Smith …
                      22 March 2020 at 10:48 am

                      I don't think the 13 week standown will stop anyone leaving their job through fear. It will just make it more difficult for them to manage after leaving.

                      Some people go to work despite their anxiety – from what I'm seeing they are already seeing their anxiety ramping up. State coercion isn't needed right now. Compassion and understanding is, support by the employers to reduce their anxiety, knowing that if it all gets too much they will be supported may be more helpful in the long run.

                      It shouldn't be a competition between anxieties – staying at work and getting sick vs finishing work and having no income for 13 weeks.

                      In my review removing that 13 week stand-down worry should be a help not a hindrance – one less thing to worry about. It is only an exertion of state power to support the employer class after all.

                    • Descendant Of Smith …
                      22 March 2020 at 3:21 pm

                      Let me put it another way.

                      In the 1918 pandemic there were doctors who worked at the frontline and died. Then there were doctors who stayed away and did not and had thriving businesses after the pandemic was over.

                      Already some doctors are busier than they should be because others have limited their services/hours, etc.

                      Will the coercive power of the state be applied to doctors who withdraw their services or chemists who may do so. Will they get 13 weeks of no state subsidies?

                      Is coerciveness to be only applied to the people who can least afford to have the choices to withdraw their labour that the well-off have. The fact that many of those caring are Maori and Polynesian and are at greatest risk means we should think about this a little more carefully.

  17. Karl Sinclair 17
    21 March 2020 at 3:18 pm

    Hi, I totally respect peoples opinions about not going as hard as China, but would respectfully disagree.

    Being too kind can be cruel as well. It reminds me of the lyrics…..by the FUGEES

    Strumming my pain with his fingers
    Singing my life with his words
    Killing me softly with his song
    Killing me softly with his song
    Telling my whole life with his words
    Killing me softly with his song

    Remember the WHO advising that it was wrong to close boarders…..

    You can take down entire countries with the wrong kind of kindness mindset, tough love maybe is what is needed. I agree with the way China has gone after the problem to a degree (I didnt see mass shootings or riots….). What do you think people on the standard, what would you do.

    Check out whats happening in Europe and compare to China……. maybe NZ Inc is being too nice

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51982495

    Many countries and regions took new measures on Friday, including:

    • UK: PM Boris Johnson said cafes, pubs and restaurants will be closed from Friday night
    • US: Borders with Mexico and Canada will be closed to most traffic; New York State ordered non-essential businesses to shut, a day after a similar move by California
    • Spain: The government warned that army patrols would detain people outside without good reason
    • Bavaria: Germany's second most populous state became the first state in impose a lockdown
    • France: Police said patrols at Paris railway stations had been reinforced to stop people going on trips for the weekend
    • Indonesia: A state of emergency will be in force in the capital Jakarta from Monday – bars, cinemas and many other businesses will be shut down.
    • observer 17.1
      21 March 2020 at 3:41 pm

      The leadership in the USA and the UK has been seriously lacking. By any reasonable measure, they are significantly worse off.

      I do understand your concerns, we're all worried – but the comparisons you're making aren't very helpful.

      As for China, we simply don't know what has happened there because they have no free media. Of course we haven't seen trouble – who would be showing us? Western journos aren't wandering freely around Wuhan, any more than they can report the oppression of the Uyghurs.

      • Sabine 17.1.1
        21 March 2020 at 3:49 pm

        there media in China is no more free nor less then ours.

        they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.

        China has been excellent about this. The US however is shitshow that is created on purpose by the Shitter in Chief who would like to profit of a deadly crisis.

        • Barfly 17.1.1.1
          21 March 2020 at 4:05 pm

          I doubt his brainrot would enable him to "coalesce" that thought

        • bill 17.1.1.2
          21 March 2020 at 5:41 pm

          they have state controllers we have advertiser controllers.

          And vested interests ready to spoon feed compliant stenographers – the RussiaGate b/s (charges against the IRA dropped btw), the Uyghur myth, the nonsense about Venezuela, Syria, Nicaragua, Iran…the list extends.

  18. Sabine 18
    21 March 2020 at 5:31 pm

    this might actually be good news.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/20/1929278/-BREAKING-Australia-Leads-the-Way-in-Developing-a-Vaccine-and-a-Cure-for-COVID-19?utm_campaign=trending

    University of Queensland Centre for Clinical Research director Professor David Paterson told news.com.au today they have seen two drugs used to treat other conditions wipe out the virus in test tubes.

    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-australia-queensland-researchers-find-cure-want-drug-trial/news-story/93e7656da0cff4fc4d2c5e51706accb5

    not holding my breath, but who knows.

    • bill 18.1
      21 March 2020 at 5:38 pm

      Apparently, developing 'a vaccine' isn't really difficult. Getting one that works in the human body, and doesn't cause unforeseen complications (including magnifying the effects of a virus in the event of infection) – not so easy.

  19. KJT 19
    21 March 2020 at 5:47 pm

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/politics/2020/03/18/1087930/the-politics-of-the-covid-19-relief-package

    "The increase in beneficiary payments makes economic sense for a number of reasons. First, those on low incomes are more likely to spend the increase, thus keeping consumption up. Second, in"

    Good piece of analysis from Newsroom.

  20. Grafton Gully 20
    21 March 2020 at 5:51 pm

    Less traffic, nearby gym and sports field quiet and no smoke from the sports bar this winter, tramping tracks and huts uncluttered, people planting veges, an end to workplace dysfunction, almost no suburban truck traffic on my AK route this morning. Big loss of value from retirement savings. Sink more piss and the wife smiles. Work from home in the garage with door open onto the garden. More likely to be dead soon – "old man's friend" and hopefully no big event funeral. I savour it all the more now, but anguish for the young – bless and keep them !!!!

  21. A 21
    21 March 2020 at 7:22 pm

    Awww, isn't that sweet?  Kaikoura residents unite to return confused baby birds to the sea

    Once they have crash-landed the birds are unable to walk on land, or move, and often get hit by vehicles, or eaten by roaming cats or dogs.

    “I go out half an hour after dark. Then I go out every hour until half past midnight, it takes them half an hour to get down from the mountains,” said Painting, who keeps animal boxes in her taxi to hold the chicks, which are fluffy, heavy and grey.

    “If there’s a lot of birds coming down I can go all night, if I have passengers they’ll help me too.”

    On an average night during fledgling season, which runs through March and April, between 10 and 20 birds will be found on local Kaikoura roads, especially those bordering the coast.

    Painting said on her busiest night more than 200 birds were rescued, with volunteers working through till dawn.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/20/taxi-endangered-new-zealand-seabirds-get-a-lift-to-safety-after-crash-landing-in-fog

  22. A 22
    21 March 2020 at 7:48 pm

    "Caremongering" trend started in Canada, where the idea is for caring to become contagious. People are so good.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51915723

  23. Stunned mullet 23
    21 March 2020 at 7:48 pm

    Thanks for the memories Kenny

  24. Bazza64 24
    21 March 2020 at 7:55 pm

    Reuben James & Ruby (don’t take your love to town) – two of Kenny’s best songs.
    He will be missed

    • I Feel Love 24.1
      21 March 2020 at 9:46 pm

      I like his earlier psychedelic rock stuff, I just dropped in (to see what condition my condition was in), brilliant.

  25. Ad 25
    21 March 2020 at 8:55 pm

    Goodbye and farewell, Kenny Rogers.

    The shadow on the wall tells me the sun is goin' down…

  26. Descendant Of Smith 26
    21 March 2020 at 10:48 pm

    On another note we're getting some movies earlier than planned.

    https://www.indiewire.com/feature/best-new-movies-digital-purchase-1202219469/