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Open mike 22/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 22nd, 2019 - 286 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

286 comments on “Open mike 22/03/2019”

  1. Adrian Thornton 2

    Great piece here on the attempted US backed coup’ in Venezuela

    On the Ground in Venezuela vs. the Media Spectacle

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/18/on-the-ground-in-venezuela-vs-the-media-spectacle/

    • So everything we read in MSM is USA propaganda and B/S why does that not surprise me ?

      • vto 2.1.1

        Because you’re aware the MSM is fatally conflicted?

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.2

        Including our very own RNZ I would like to add.

        • cleangreen 2.1.2.1

          Adrian yes 100% correct.

          RNZ is now another compromised media after national in their last year helicoptered in several ex BBC right wing staffers.

          We hear nothing but bullshit from them through the RNZ media now.

          Nothing about ‘climate change’ or ‘serious problems in our transport systems
          and the issues’ in NZ now.

          So the global elite have taken control of RNZ also now.

          • Adrian Thornton 2.1.2.1.1

            I think RNZ has just finally completely succumbed to what Chomsky’ has termed ‘Manufacturing consent’ very sad for us all really.

            • cleangreen 2.1.2.1.1.1

              Adrian

              Thank you for that clip of the wonderful truth serum of Noam Chomsky vs conservative media types.

              It speaks volumes of truth, bless Noam..

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                A little bit of self censoring is going on here, by Chomsky himself.

                He says he knows some very fine journalists, but refuses to name them.

                I wonder why?

                Is it because if Chomsky told us their names we could actually check that they are the fine journalists he claims they are? If Chomsky named these fine jounalists surely he would be doing them a favour by giving them some well deserved publicity. If Chomsky named these journalists, we could actually check to see if among the names are the genocide deniers and apologists for Assad fascism, Chomsky has previously identified as fine journalists.

          • tc 2.1.2.1.2

            Faafoi appears out of his depth as national knew exactly how to leave it very hard to make it work for NZ ever again.

    • KJT 2.2

      https://theintercept.com/2019/03/10/nyts-expose-on-the-lies-about-burning-humanitarian-trucks-in-venezuela-shows-how-us-govt-and-media-spread-fake-news/

      Makes you think about most of the news,
      About the terrible State of Venezuala.
      If Maduro was really a totalitarian Dictator. How come Guido, and his mates, who actually were involved in violent coup attempts, are still alive?

      Much worse situations, in real authoritarian right wing Dictatorships are ignored, by media.

  2. Robert Guyton 3

    Frank Macskasy: not happy.
    “But really, what did people think was the purpose of Southern and Molyneux to visit Aotearoa New Zealand? To engage in rational debate with progressives over a cup of Earl Grey and gingernut? To do the Tourist Thing and take ‘selfies’ on the Fox Glacier?

    What did we think their purpose was to visit Aotearoa New Zealand?

    Let me answer that. They were not here to debate. They are past debate.

    They were here to (a) encourage new recruits amongst the disaffected and (b) re-energise existing far-right and alt-right groups.

    It took barely six months after I wrote my rebuttal to permitting the Polite Fascists to visit. They came, nevertheless. They made their public speeches. (There was no debate.) And they left, to continue their ‘mission’ to spread their poison somewhere else, to eager listeners with anger and hate in their minds.

    So we had our free speech. Only, it wasn’t “free”. There was a cost attached.

    The price for their free speech has been paid-in-full. By the gods, we paid dearly.”

    https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2019/03/22/15-march-aotearoas-day-of-infamy/

    • Sam 3.1

      We don’t allow foreigners to buy more than 50% of a New Zealand company so we allow any one to visit here, and we get to hear what they are saying about us. We do not let them tell us what to do or how to set or laws or how to look after our own people. People in New Zealand are allowed to walk around in the bush and say what ever they like. They’re not allowed to murder people. If we classify people who may say risky stuff as the threat then we will dilute what it means to be a real murderer / terrorist as it was when for decades the security aperartus falsely believed lefties was a threat diluting what it means to be a real murderer / terrorist,

    • adam 3.2

      So Robert Guyton you still have not connected the dots, that you were one of the key people who helped Southern and Molyneux get such a wide platform in your mad rush to ban them.

      One day you might work out that the right never get censored, only more air time when tools on the left try and censor them.

      But I’d say look closer to home, look to talk back radio and the corporate press. Or the frothing anger fueled rant by the former PM screeching “getting some guts”. All that racial hate was already here, already in the popular discourse, even dare I say it – mainstream.

      And If you think we should get a free pass for our own racism and blame someone from outside – or the ‘other’. Then I’m seeing very little difference between you, Southern, and Molyneux.

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.1

        Adam. Be still. The “mad rush to ban” Southern and Molyneux you attribute to me is nothing more than a figment of your imagination. If you can truly see “very little difference between” me and those two, your vision is seriously compromised, I would suggest. You did notice that I was quoting an article written by Frank Macskasy, yes?

        • adam 3.2.1.1

          So you did not want to ban Southern and Molyneux?

          So your post was not a distraction from deep nz racism?

          feel free to clarify.

          • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1

            My post, Adam, began:
            “Frank Macskasy: not happy.”, and went on to quote him.
            My only comment was, “Frank Macskasy: not happy.”
            Where on earth did you draw your inferences from???

      • marty mars 3.2.2

        “Then I’m seeing very little difference between you, Southern, and Molyneux.”

        So untrue and rude – open your eyes cos you’re spraying where spray isn’t needed. I know it’s tough but I’d suggest focus and being in the moment today to fully be there for our dead and injured and hurt. Kia kaha.

        • adam 3.2.2.1

          sheesh marty I know you can be angry “and rude”

          but at least have some respect of context, before you do the whole “untrue” thing.

          • marty mars 3.2.2.1.1

            I did adam I really did I just wanted to support Robert because whatever the beef is, that comparison could never be true imo. Robert is a good guy, they aren’t.

      • Molly 3.2.3

        I agree with you Adrian, on the promotion and publicity given to Southern and Molyneux when they were to visit NZ.

        We already have laws in NZ regarding “hate speech”, if they broach those laws they should be arrested and prosecuted. If the laws need review, then that should be done. As you mention, we have state broadcasters paying presenters to cultivate intolerant views amongst our communities. We should recognise the harm of that as well.

        Allowing such people to talk, also allows our currently failing media to openly discuss and dismiss their intolerance and prejudices en masse, and with certainty.
        We get a good idea of the number of locals who are such fans they are prepared to pay for tickets, and we avoid them having the “injustice” and “persecution” flag to rally their followers with.

        We need to learn how to identify and recognise those NZers whose intolerance has reached concerning levels. Having them attend a speaking event where they can be counted and assessed is surely a good thing for security and mitigation.

        • aj 3.2.3.1

          We need to describe the process of white supremacists having their their brains filled with this shit exactly the way the media and politicians use for ‘others’. That is, they are being radicalised.
          I don’t think I’ve heard this word used once when talking about these white fascist scum.

          • Molly 3.2.3.1.1

            Another concern of mine, is that any prohibition outside of current legislation will give precedent to any succeeding governments. And their idea of ‘radical’ speakers, may include those who talk about climate change, climate justice, income equality or global responsibility.

            If our current legislation is not robust enough, then we should amend it.

          • Bewildered 3.2.3.1.2

            This guy also so had socialist and eco fascist leanings, short man syndrome ….. Irrespective trying to put him on a political spectrum is counter productive, to me he was just one evil SOB

            • adam 3.2.3.1.2.1

              No introspection needed – he called himself a white supremacist and a fascist.

              That’s the far right.

              And I think all the far right are evil SOB’s.

              • Bewildered

                Yep likewise far left (Stalin,Mao, The red brigade, IRA Baadee Meinhoff gang .,,,this does not mean those of Center left are

    • Gabby 3.3

      Did shatpants go to the pretty nazi’s rallies?

    • Bewildered 3.4

      Rubbish Robert

      The action of the individual who can’t be named is just one evil sick prick, don’t give him excuses he at the end of the day made the choice to do what he did irrespective of so called influencers, for you to play politics with this is disappointing, taking your arguement I could blame the green party for eco terrorist

      • Robert Guyton 3.4.1

        I haven’t presented an argument for you to take, Bewildered.
        What are you talking about?

    • greywarshark 4.1

      JP
      I object to you calling Chris Trotter ‘Colonel’ and I object to the tone of your comment.

      Right wingers who use this horrible action by an extreme, murderous group that feeds on the blood of, usually, disaffected males who have never found anything to live for, are not going to spread this disaffection without being called out. You may feel encouraged by TRP’s comments about Trotter but don’t think that you can turn that into a long shadow that darkens this blog.

      Chris discusses different aspects of our culture and psyche along lines that we may not like. He lets us into the dress-up store and try on the different coats that are there.
      The white coat of purity (no good soon gets dirty), perhaps black (very popular non-colour in today’s NZ), red (reminds us of fire), yellow (a bit bright and clear, we like to merge into the background). Some don’t like him because they don’t like to think and examine the country, our society, themselves. You think you are thinking, but are you just on automatic, thinking while going forward is important.
      You will be interested in his latest post.

    • Gabby 4.2

      Trotsker waves his perfumed kerchief elegantly under his nose and sighs as he ponders the exquisite ironies of the lives of lesser beings. Makes mental note to discuss praxis of intertia with franky if he can find a little man to dial for him.

      • cleangreen 4.2.1

        Gabby what a load of shite.

        • Gabby 4.2.1.1

          Trotsker vaguely recalls a passage in Theucydides reporting on the Parthian practice of self-decoration with ordure, poff poff. Must make witty allusion to Cultural Marxism. Poff poff.

          • te reo putake 4.2.1.1.1

            Comment o’ the Day!

            • Sam 4.2.1.1.1.1

              When ever gabby comments I feel like it’s just for fun but when ever Chris Trotter does it it’s always a lot more serious. I just love the fact that Trotter is so under control he can sit around and just be home.

  3. rata 5

    Is there any solution to angry male syndrome?

      • patricia bremner 5.1.1

        JP, Yes Jacinda has shown how powerful love is. We actually know that, putting it into practice is when the power starts. If you don;t know where to start try gentle touch of hands or a hug. regardless of race or gender we all need that.
        VTO you are better than that comment.

        • vto 5.1.1.1

          Happy to hear what’s wrong with it in your opinion Patricia.. what’s wrong with it?

          First sentence challenges whether rata’s idea exists. Where is the evidence? Weka banned me for not providing evidence when making such large claims.

          Second sentence challenges how the question was structured, by bouncing back one of similar structure for highlighting purposes. i.e. loaded

          • patricia bremner 5.1.1.1.1

            Yes VTO, I got that, but it is a recognised syndrome, and studies have shown all warm blooded mammals need touch and cuddles to thrive.
            I felt your unanswerable question was not your usual thoughtful reply, and made fun of a serious question. Why did you do that?

            • vto 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Ok, thanks. I also felt rata’s question was unanswerable given its inherent assumption (loaded) that there was such a thing (still seen no evidence), and the reason for the respectless reply in kind was that respectless post in the first instance..

              but your point is noted and perhaps a reply in kind isn’t always the best manner of response.. despite the bare knuckled nature of rata’s post

              anyway, taking your word that there is such a thing..
              .. rata’s question might be better approached by asking “what causes angry male syndrome?” rather than “what’s the solution?”

              it aint possible to repair if the fault is unknown

              one final matter – in the long past I had the fortune to work next to and under one of NZ’s most successful people. One thing I noticed was that it was never about finding the right answer to something, as an answer can nearly always be found… it was always about finding the right question

              • patricia bremner

                Thank you VTO, Yes, perhaps I over simplified it. I thought his was a cry of “how do we deal with this?” because for years I worked with students of an age where one kind caring person could alter the course of a life. I do believe it is breaking down barriers and building pathways, and sharing gifts.
                Asking the right question indicates reflection on a topic.
                “Why do we have terrorists?” “Why do we have deprived people.?”
                Sadly same answer.
                Below I replied to Pscho M. about another reason for problems, the
                acceptance of difference.

            • Bewildered 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Can you speak to my cat 😊

      • KJT 5.1.2

        Anger is a necessary emotion in many cases.
        Driving good as well as bad.

        Don’t you mean mis-directed, anger?

    • vto 5.2

      That would require it to exist in the first place

      Stopped beating your wife yet?

      • marty mars 5.2.1

        You sound angry.

      • Robert Guyton 5.2.2

        “That would require it to exist in the first place”
        A logical question, dispassionately expressed.
        “Stopped beating your wife yet?”
        The standard, poignant response to loaded questions.
        Vto sounds not at all angry to me.

      • Cinny 5.2.3

        Can’t stand that loaded saying/question, personally I find it highly offensive. Try being a beaten wife. JS.

    • Yep cyanide tablet.

    • cleangreen 5.4

      Rata, – yes and thanks for asking that badly needed question.

      See my comments on 6 please.

    • Is there any solution to angry male syndrome?

      Sure, just not very feasible solutions:

      1. Replace sexual reproduction with some kind of in-vitro technical mechanism for creating new people and remove everyone’s sex organs.

      2. Use genetic engineering or some other forced evolutionary process to turn Homo Sapiens into something else.

      3. Exterminate Homo Sapiens.

      Does one of them stand out as more appealing than the others?

      • marty mars 5.5.1

        So angry men are with us forever and they can’t change or improve becauseeeee they have seen older angry men not taking responsibility for their anger and blaming others especially women and men who aren’t angry at that time. Bit of a problem eh.

        • Psycho Milt 5.5.1.1

          The differences between men and women are due to sexual reproduction and the evolutionary effects of that on behaviour. So, we can educate and encourage and admonish people as much as we like, there are still going to be significant differences between men and women, not least of which is there’s a shitload more testosterone in men. The question asked was “Is there any solution to angry male syndrome?”, not “Are there ways of mitigating angry male syndrome?”.

          • marty mars 5.5.1.1.1

            So anger in men is hard wired in your opinion.

            • Psycho Milt 5.5.1.1.1.1

              It doesn’t work like that, it’s just a more-likely-to/less-likely-to thing.

              Evolutionary behaviour operates at the population level, in a similar way to physical characteristics. For example, on average men are taller than women, but there’s no guarantee I’m going to be taller than any individual woman I meet. I may even be shorter than most women.

              In the same way, men are influenced by testosterone a lot more than women are, but that doesn’t guarantee I’ll be more aggressive than any woman I meet.

              It’s at the top ends of these bell curves where you get the biggest differences between the sexes. The tallest men are going to be way taller than the overwhelming majority of people regardless of sex, and the angriest, most aggressive men are going to be way more angry and aggressive than the overwhelming majority of people regardless of sex. The angriest, most aggressive women just won’t be in the same league.

              • vto

                Psycho, aren’t you mixing up anger and aggression? I often see people do this – conflate aggression with violence e.g. think rugby is violent, when it is simply aggressive… or aggression with anger… or discipline with violence…

                I see people mix these things up all the time, leading to unfortunate outcomes in their minds I think

                You will see through all of that of course as you are clearly smart. 2c.

                • Sorry, yes, I shouldn’t just mix the words anger and aggression in these comments as though they were interchangeable. Both are affected by testosterone and evolutionary behaviour, but they’re different things.

              • marty mars

                Ho hum yeah yeah I know what you believe in that area. Blaming evolution is the same as not accepting responsibility imo on this one. Bit lazy too.

                • Your opinion is worthless outside your own head. If you think accepting that evolution influences behaviour in humans as well as other animals is just a way of abdicating responsibility, make an argument for it.

      • Gabby 5.5.2

        Free copies of ‘You Can’t Always Get What You Want’ to be listened to nightly before bedtime.

      • bwaghorn 5.5.3

        Na men need to feel valued and like they contributing, needed and respected . In an age were there is no path to be ones own man many get lost .

        • Gabby 5.5.3.1

          But if you try sometime you just might find you get what you need waggers.

        • WeTheBleeple 5.5.3.2

          Got to agree. And the lost can be easily led.

          We (men) get told we must be leaders, when some of us just want a decent person/cause worth helping…

          There’s nothing subservient in it, we all have strengths in different areas.

          We don’t all want to be a big boss. But purpose helps.

    • Adrian Thornton 5.6

      Of the 154 mass shootings recorded in the U.S. in 2018 through 28 June…

      …”two-thirds of the cases in which a suspect was identified involved black men, and when the definition of a mass shooting was slightly expanded, the list of incidents included five in which investigators were in no doubt that a woman was responsible. ”

      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mass-shootings-in-2018/

      • mpledger 5.6.1

        To put that in context – mass shootings was defined as “four or more people (not including the attacker) are shot in a single incident” (i.e. shot not killed).

        Typically, we think of mass shootings as person going to a place which has a high density of people and killing indiscriminately. From the same sources “When we consulted the Mother Jones database, a source that strips away non-fatal, non-public, and gang-related mass shootings, we are left with only six incidents between 1 January and 28 June 2018. In five of those, the suspect was a white man, and in the remaining case the suspect was an Asian-American man. ”

        Statistically, we can’t say much about 6 people.

    • AB 5.7

      Anger can be a useful emotion – the problems arise when it dominates or gets out of balance with other emotions, or is irrationally directed at the wrong targets.
      Personally, I think we have a growing plague of alienation – economic life is a frantic, individuated and often losing scramble for a sort of survival, that even when achieved, is itself meaningless and lacks authenticity.
      These circumstances will produce nasty symptoms, especially at the margins.

      • gsays 5.7.1

        I was taught when angry, ask yourself, what am I desiring right now?

        A desire not being met is the most common cause of anger.

        If that isn’t controversial enough: happiness is our natural state. If unhappy, something is covering over our happiness.

    • Stuart Munro. 5.8

      Thich Nhat Hanh has one. Anger: Wisdom for cooling the flames.

    • Bewildered 5.9

      Yes stop demonising, stereo typing white males

    • SHG 5.11

      Is there any solution to angry male syndrome?

      Give men meaningful productive things to do with their lives. Men who feel like they’re useless and have no control in a chaotic world are dangerous. We’re dumb apes like that.

      You think shit’s bad now, just wait until automation and machine learning wipe out half the jobs in the world.

      Ironically Jordan Peterson’s book “12 Rules for Life” is a direct attempt to deal with this problem, but I hear he’s thoughtcrime now.

    • Rae 5.12

      It is probably as simple as something like a surfboard

    • Incognito 5.13

      Hurt people hurt people.

      Behind an angry man is an angry man.

      What’s in front of an angry man?

  4. cleangreen 6

    I was so very impressed with the caring, warm, sensitive ‘inclusive’ call by the gentle character of Efeso Collins today on the TV one morning panel.

    Efeso is exactly the type of leader we desperately need to heal us all in today’s divided secular bitter broken society.

    Sadly the presentation by the much more ‘abrasive character of Mary Lambie was sadly an injury to our feelings of hope that this tragedy will bring us together in the wonderful manner that Efeso wants “in a totally inclusive warm caring manner as we are desperately hoping all our community issues may also be resolved.

    It is a must watch to see the special tenderness expressed by this extraordinary man Efeso Collins that should be a senior MP in this current Labour government who has expressed the same will to add Labour as a, Quote; “gentle, kind, caring, inclusive government”.

    This was a special moment that came from the TV one morning report after 8 am during the discussion panel on the Christchurch memorial happening today one week after the killings.

  5. Adrian Thornton 7

    For anyone wanting a uplifting and inspiring story here is a brief history of the radical International Longshore and Warehouse Union in the San Francisco Bay Area, it is quite humbling to be reminded of the power that united workers can do for good, not only for themselves collectively but for the whole community, and ultimately the country…

    Radio KPFA
    Against the Grain
    03.13.19
    https://kpfa.org/episode/against-the-grain-march-13-2019/

    “Dockworkers the world over have a long tradition of both power and militancy, able to block the flow of cargo and jam up the workings of capitalism. The International Longshore and Warehouse Union in the San Francisco Bay Area has been one of the most radical of American unions. Historian Peter Cole discusses the fascinating story of the ILWU and how an originally white workforce committed itself to racial equality and integration — and how the later majority black workforce became the radical backbone of the anti-apartheid and international solidarity movements in the Bay Area”

    • greywarshark 7.1

      That sounds interesting Adrian Thornton. I have restored faith in your perspicacity.

    • patricia bremner 7.2

      Thank you Adrian.

    • Bewildered 7.3

      When I was in US a few years ago this port was one of the lowest productive ports in the Us re containers processed per hour, likewise the general view is that San Francisco has gone to the dogs after many years of left rule, so news not all good

  6. Kat 8

    Well well well…..Hoots that master of spin over at the fish wrap this morning in a cunning piece of right wing propaganda draws comparison between Jacinda Ardern’s response to the terrorist attack in Christchurch to the “empathy” and “steely” resolve” of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher after similar events back in the 80’s.

    Aligning Jacinda Ardern alongside those two wreckers is a gross insult.

    He then implores that we should be “boldly making the case for free and open markets and globalisation” and that we should “no longer reject the term neo-liberal, so often used as abuse, but reclaim it…..”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12215075

    Well Hoots you can just shove that propaganda right up where the sun don’t shine.

    • patricia bremner 8.1

      Couldn’t agree more Kat. I thought as I read his piece “You bloody opportunist you!!”
      So pleased to see him called out here.

  7. Anne 9

    And what about this ‘son of a bitch’

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215110

    “This is Offensive to all True Christians in Aotearoa … Our National Identity is at stake,” he posted on Twitter.

    “PM Jacinda Ardern has abused her Prime Ministerial decree in allowing ‘Allah as the only true God to be sounded in Muslim prayer across the airwaves in our nation tomorrow.”

    • ianmac 9.1

      Anyway the good Bishop Tamaki writes “..there is no God but Allah” well I Disagree..”Jesus Christ “ is the only True God..This is Not US! ”

      That will be a change for Christians then.

      • Stuart Munro. 9.1.1

        He’s just ignorant. Yahweh = Jehovah = Allah. A “Bishop” ought to know that.

        • Anne 9.1.1.1

          He’s not a “Bishop” of course. It’s what he calls himself. He may kid himself he’s working for “the Lord” but he’s really just a self-serving p***k who is milking his flock for all they’re worth.

          I’m not a religious person but that does not stop me admiring the tremendous amount of good work carried out by people from different religous backgrounds and… calling out the fakes. Tamaki is a fake.

        • patricia bremner 9.1.1.2

          He crowned himself.

      • Gabby 9.1.2

        Bish Tomato is a heretic then.

    • marty mars 9.2

      What a lowlife – hit him where it hurts – his pocket – audit the shit out of his scrooge mcduck vault.

    • AB 9.3

      Those of us who are secular, regard religions as important cultural artefacts. So a statement asserting that Allah is the true God, we take as an expression of belief that has no objective correlation with anything outside the speaker’s mind.
      From our perspective, there is nothing there that can be disagreed with – because the statement has nothing to say about the external world.

      Unlike us, Tamaki is a literalist believer – an odd throwback for sure, but simply a very different worldview.

    • Peter 9.4

      Fancy that eh? Remember how in 2004, Tamaki predicted Destiny Church would be “ruling the nation” before its tenth anniversary in 2008?

      Imagine him being Prime Minister at any time let alone over the past week.

    • You don’t have to be a Christian to be offended by an officially-sanctioned, nationally-broadcast Muslim declaration of faith. Ardern is going way too far with this. NZ is a secular country and the overwhelming majority would reject the claim being broadcast at them.

      • solkta 9.5.1

        Hardly any different to singing the national anthem or other crap that happens.

        • Psycho Milt 9.5.1.1

          Very different, in fact. The NZ government is about to broadcast to the nation the declaration “There is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is is his prophet.” In this instance, the NZ government can fuck right off.

          • patricia bremner 9.5.1.1.1

            Sad and belligerent. No one asked you to alter your life, just to acknowledge their loss. Was that too much for you? Do you think Maori should be spoken over the air? Other languages? Other beliefs? Because why?????

            • Psycho Milt 9.5.1.1.1.1

              NZ’s a secular country, so the government has no business broadcasting declarations about true gods and prophets. That has nothing to do with acknowledging Muslims’ loss last Friday, nor with Māori spoken on air, nor with whatever other irrelevant things people would like it to be about.

              • solkta

                So why aren’t/haven’t you complained about the national anthem?

                It isn’t a government declaration, it is a Muslim prayer.

                • Maybe you aren’t familiar with Islam. This “prayer” consists of the phrases “Allah is great. There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet.” Which makes your analogy with the national anthem a false analogy. A better analogy would be the government broadcasting the Nicene Creed to the country.

                  • solkta

                    It’s the same fucking god as Christianity. Same heritage. The Christian stuff implies that there is only one god as Jesus he introduced monotheism to the middle east. Unless in fact there is a separate “god of nations”. Might need to check that with the UN.

                    Islam holds that Muhammad is the last of many prophets including Jesus. He is just the most up-to-date version.

                    You are just being precious.

                    • It’s the same fucking god as Christianity. Same heritage. The Christian stuff implies that there is only one god as Jesus…

                      Hence my comment that an appropriate analogy would be the government broadcasting the Nicene Creed nationwide. Did you actually read it, or are you just spouting off at a straw man?

                    • solkta

                      Just fuck off and grow up. It is your kind of attitude which is the problem.

              • McFlock

                I reckon, just this once, I figure I’ll let it go. And give less of a shit about it than I ever did about parliament opening with a prayer, or references to God in the national anthem. Which was FA anyway, tbh.

                Because maybe a little extra effort in helping a particular section of our community feel included rather than othered is particularly important at the moment.

                • Lying to them isn’t including them.

                  • McFlock

                    What’s the lie?

                    • I’m pretty confident that the people who decided to broadcast this declaration nation-wide don’t actually believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.

                    • McFlock

                      I’m pretty sure nobody of that faith believes it means NZ is now a caliphate, and it was never presented as such.

                      Find something better to worry about. Like nazis.

                    • solkta

                      @PM

                      Still going on about it. What an infant.

                      For anybody who believes in one god the statement is true. For the rest of us it is no more than we regularly tolerate. Actually having said that it is less. Christians claim that their prophet IS god or a third there of.

                    • Find something better to worry about.

                      Feel free not to give a shit whether the NZ government respects secularism and the separation of church and state if you like, it’s a free country. But there’s no obligation on me to share your lack of interest.

                    • solkta

                      @PM

                      >>>>> NATIONAL ANTHEM <<<<<

                      You have still not addressed the fact that the Christian god is referred to in every verse of our national anthem.

                      Get over yourself.

                    • Addressed multiple times. If you don’t read the comments, there’s nothing I can do about that.

                    • solkta

                      Go on then, say it again. Some of us have to take a break to go to the beach.

                      Nothing to really say but eh.

                      Feel free not to give a shit whether the NZ government respects secularism and the separation of church and state

                      What a noddy.

                    • McFlock

                      Sorry, I didn’t quite get why you think it’s a lie.

                      God wouldn’t be misled if it exists. It was clearly billed as a gesture of empathy after what happened. I don’t think that anyone other than you and Brian Tamaki thinks it means anything more than that.

                    • To the pragmatist, there’s nothing so petty and irrelevant as a point of principle.

                    • Solkta: you seem very angry about something. Have you tried thinking about what it is you’re angry about, so you can deal with it rather than just lashing out in your comments?

                    • solkta

                      @PM

                      I’m angry with fuckwits like you.

                    • McFlock

                      So there was no lie, but you don’t care because pragmatism?

                      Doesn’t that make your unretracted accusation of a lie a lie itself?

                    • My writing must really be going downhill, the way people keep asking me to re-state things.

                      The NZ government broadcast nationwide a declaration that Islam is the one true religion (something that is, or should be, offensive to secularists, but let’s leave that aside for a moment).

                      There are two possible scenarios:
                      1. The government broadcast this declaration knowing it to be untrue, ie it lied. It’s also effectively a lie in that it may encourage Muslims to believe NZ in general will be less secular and less hostile to religious fuckwittery as a result of this attack, which it won’t.

                      2. Or, the government didn’t know it was broadcasting a declaration that Islam is the one true religion, and just sees the adhan as a bunch of wailing noises Muslims make when it’s prayer time. That would make it an ignorance-based token gesture, which means it effectively lied when claiming the broadcast shows inclusiveness.

                    • Andre

                      Would you settle for calling it a white lie?

                    • McFlock

                      Option 3 is that the message being broadcast was more than the literal interpretation of its words, and that everyone bloody knows this, that nobody intended to mislead or was genuinely misled, but that some folks who want to get pissed off will pretend they thought it was an indication parliament and the government had all converted to Islam just so they can make it all about them rather than about the community that was targetted.

                      There was no lie. It was the most honest gesture our government has made in years.

                    • Would you settle for calling it a white lie?

                      Sure. Their hearts are in the right place, and for the most part their efforts to make it clear our Muslim population are as welcome here as anyone else have been great. However, this particular instance of it was something a secular state should not do, regardless of the circumstances.

                    • solkta

                      @PM

                      A secular state that has a national anthem that says that the Christian god is not only the god of this nation but the god of all nations.

                      Still talking total crap you are.

                    • McFlock: yes, you made your thoughts on this clear already, hence my comment that there’s nothing so petty and irrelevant to the pragmatist as a point of principle. But to me, it’s not petty and irrelevant.

                    • solkta: yes, the long and hard-fought battle to make the liberal democracies of the West secular states has left a few historical anomalies like NZ’s national anthem. That isn’t an argument for introducing new anomalies like official declarations of the truth of a particular religion, it’s an argument for continuing to push for the secularisation of our democracy.

                      Also: you may find it useful to review the logical fallacy entertainingly known as whataboutery.

                    • Andre

                      @PM, something a secular state should not do, regardless of the circumstances.

                      I kinda hope we’re sufficiently secure and comfortable in our status as a secular state that we can accommodate one-off gestures in exceptional circumstances like we’ve just had.

                      Sure there’s a big treacherous grey area figuring what does and doesn’t qualify, but to my worldview this time it ain’t even close to the grey. Even though my overall view of Islam is pretty close to yours. Personally, I’m more offended by the remaining vestiges of what used to be effectively state religion than this one-off gesture.

                    • McFlock

                      I don’t think it’s petty and irrelevant.

                      I think it’s an important gesture that NZ is not a “Christian nation”. But that nor is it a nation where religion is forbidden. It’s a nation where everybody can live alongside each other without shitting a brick.

                      And I think that not only is your interpretation of that simple gesture in a time of great need for such a gesture paranoid, it actually undermines that message of tolerance.

                    • You’re free to hold whatever opinion you like about the government broadcasting declarations of religious faith, as am I.

                    • McFlock

                      I’m also free to notice that your justification for calling it a “lie” seems to have evaporated.

                • bwaghorn

                  Yip if it’s a one off I’ll let it slide . But by fuck my knee’s feeling very jerky.

          • Wensleydale 9.5.1.1.2

            If you’re not religious, does it really matter? I’m not religious, so they may as well be praying to Gandalf the Grey or Rumpelstiltskin for all the difference it makes to me. If it makes people feel better, and brings a little harmony and well-being to a grieving community, then fill your boots, people. There are more important things to get indignant about.

          • The Al1en 9.5.1.1.3

            No worse than not having adverts on TV on Xmas day or the shops being closed on Christian holidays.
            I’m not a believer in any god and I’m not offended by this one off show of solidarity.

          • Skunk Weed 9.5.1.1.4

            OTT Psycho show a little bit of compassion ?

          • solkta 9.5.1.1.5

            Nobody is asking you say it. With the national anthem on the other hand everyone is expected to stand and sing the shit. There is no way that i am going to say that i am at any god’s feet. I do stand though as there seems little point in being disrespectful. Really can’t see how just broadcasting a prayer affects you.

          • marty mars 9.5.1.1.6

            I think your attitude to Islam is where the problem is.

          • I feel love 9.5.1.1.7

            Yet most of us don’t believe in any god, so whether someone believes their god is the one true god is just meaningless words really. For 2 minutes NZ became a Muslim country, and then it didn’t again. BFD. I wonder what the next outrage will be…

            • Psycho Milt 9.5.1.1.7.1

              …whether someone believes their god is the one true god is just meaningless words really.

              I agree. Muslims are welcome to believe ridiculous things, just like Christians or any other religious people. However, the government has no business declaring any particular religion to be true, even if the declaration is just virtue-signalling in the aftermath of a tragedy.

              • Bewildered

                Agree PM, but progressive / regressive are all about virtue signalling so why stop now

                • Stuart Munro.

                  And so are the Right – ‘personal responsibility’ never actually applies to their self-serving tax evading assholes – it’s just a stick to beat the victims of their cruel and stupid economic policies.

              • RedLogix

                PM

                You and I do share a common background in that we both have considerably more exposure to Islam in it’s native lands, than almost everyone else here. I recall conversations we’ve had on this in the past.

                So I do understand your reservations; but a precise calibration of these things to make everyone happy is not possible. Adern is our leader on this and I’m happy to firmly set aside my opinions for the much higher purpose of our national unity.

                Certainly for today.

                • I do appreciate that I’m pushing it uphill with a spoon on this site under these circumstances.

                  • Cinny

                    Yup..*gives PM a virtual hug from jude*

                    Anyways…. brian tamaki could be in the poo for using the NZ parliament coat of arms as some kind of endorsement style logo in one of his broadcasts.

                    Wonder how that’s going to work out….. will find a link.

                    • In Vino

                      I am rather sympathetic with PM in this way: when it comes to that all-important inclusivity, atheists are actually excluded. It seems that we are all praying to God in the news. I am feeling sympathy, but I refuse to pray to a God I don’t believe in. It does leave me a bit uncomfortable.
                      On the other hand, I gather that Islam is not accepting of declarations of Atheism, or am I wrong in that?

                    • Cinny

                      Here’s the link, it’s at the end of the clip.

                      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/03/brian-tamaki-defends-his-controversial-tweets.html

                      What happened today, came from a place of love and compassion, and that small gesture may help change the world.

                      In Vino.. this bit.. “I am feeling sympathy, but I refuse to pray to a God I don’t believe in. It does leave me a bit uncomfortable.”

                      It was a call to prayer, one could pray to any imaginary friend of their choosing, or simply not pray at all. Least that’s how I saw it.

                      And this bit…“On the other hand, I gather that Islam is not accepting of declarations of Atheism, or am I wrong in that?” Just because some do it one way doesn’t mean we need to too.

                      Sometimes we can’t see the forest for the trees.

                      Sending good vibes to Winny atm.

                    • It was a call to prayer, one could pray to any imaginary friend of their choosing, or simply not pray at all.

                      You could do what you like, sure. However, those of us who know that the adhan consists of a declaration that the only god is Allah and that Muhammad is the only legitimate prophet take a less sanguine view of its endorsement by our government. Ignorance may be bliss, but it remains ignorance.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    The separation of church and state need not be absolute. For the duration of a funeral, the religious preferences of the deceased and their family deserve some consideration. I’m led to believe that a number of Maori observances our political class adhere to are religious also.

                    Nor was it so very long ago that MPs had a parliamentary prayer, the function of which, like the Roman Auriga, was to remind MPs of their fallibility and ward them from hubris. Trevor Mallard, having attained (in his own mind) infallibility, felt he could dispense with the reminder. No doubt Fate has something classically Greek lined up for him, probably involving moas.

                  • Cinny

                    PM, but dosen’t every religion have a clause that their god is the only god and if you believe in any other god then hell fire and brimstone and all that.

                    I do however agree with S.M… this bit “For the duration of a funeral, the religious preferences of the deceased and their family deserve some consideration”

                    The timeline of reaction… will be interesting to find out how the rest of the world reacts re today, they be sleeping atm.

                    And PM you are right about ignorance, but there is also room for growth re attitudes as well as growth re experience/knowledge. And I understand that you are well versed on said subject so value your opinions.

                    OMG… just looked out the open door and there is this MASSIVE gold moon, beautifully round coming out of the ocean. Wow! That’s a treat. Nitey nite 🙂 hope you can see the moon, it’s epic tonite.

                    • In Vino

                      Cinny, I too agree with SM in this case, but I am left with the chill dread that no atheists will ever get such consideration; that other groups may also suffer massacre, and always the call will be to prayer.
                      I think PM is right in saying that the state must remain secular.

                      After this is settled maybe we could have a discussion about secularism – except it won’t seem urgent then, will it?

                    • solkta

                      dosen’t every religion have a clause that their god is the only god

                      Actually Judaism doesn’t as the old testament is not monotheistic. Moses said to to the Egyptian pharaoh that his people worshiped Yahweh and that Yahweh was more powerful than the Egyptian gods and that he would send “flies and frogs upon thee”. It was after that when wandering through the desert that Yahweh decided to choose the Hebrew people as “his people”.

                      Monotheism was still radical thought when Jesus came along. That was a big part of why he upset the apple cart so. Hitherto the Romans had taken a live and let live approach to religion. The Romans had their gods and the Hebrews their god. Jesus came along and said that there was only one god and it was his, a very seemingly arrogant thing for the times.

                    • In Vino

                      solkta – you conveniently leave out Moses getting the tablets with ten commandments and the very first of those commandments. Sorry, but most of us see the Jews as being monotheistic from that point on. Monotheism was not a radical thought to Jews. Christ himself was a Jew, and spoke of that same God. The rest of the people in the old testament may well have been polytheists, just as the Romans were.

                    • solkta

                      @ In Vino

                      You shall have no other gods before me

                      Yahweh is saying that he is the god of the Hebrews and that they dare not worship any other god, not that there are not any other gods.

                    • Cinny

                      Hi, In Vino.

                      Really interesting how sometimes things just flow, have just been checking out the morning papers, it must be time for change.

                      This comment of yours above…. “I am left with the chill dread that no atheists will ever get such consideration;”

                      With that in mind….turns out our PM is agnostic… from stuff this morning…

                      ” Reporters do not usually ask if prime ministers feel sad. Nor do they ask if they are religious. But this has not been a typical week.

                      “I consider myself to be agnostic,” Ardern replied, “but given I was raised in a religious household, I like to think I’m very open-minded to everyone’s choices and faiths and their ways of life.”

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111497189/we-are-all-forever-changed-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-reflects-on-the-week

                      With that in mind…….

                      Jacinda has been projected onto to the Burj Kahlifa in Dubai, that’s an awesome gesture… https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215523

                      And yes please to a discussion about secularism. At present am really hopefully for global change away from religious competitiveness. I really believe the way Jacinda has responded and Winston as well (from the report’s I’ve seen so far coming out of Turkey), that change is happening.

                      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/erdogan-calls-fight-islamophobia-anti-semitism-190322080646853.html

                      Incredibly interesting how it’s all unfolding on the world stage. A catalyst for the evolution of humanity, now that would be a good buzz, just like the moon last night, that was beautiful.

              • Gabby

                I’d be interested in reading this declaration if you have a copy handy milty.

      • Gabby 9.5.2

        Well we had decades of Sunday religious service broadcasts and, even more abominably, pommie footie results at tedious length for the Faithful. No doubt it comforted some.

        • Wensleydale 9.5.2.1

          Ah yes, Praise Be, with that jolly, ruddy-faced chap and his vast collection of cardigans. I remember saying to my mum one morning, “Mum? Why is this boring crap on telly every Sunday?” I think I got a slap for that one.

          • Bewildered 9.5.2.1.1

            That’s a blast from the past I forgot about him Sundsy 7pm I think, and we only had one channel 😊

          • Gabby 9.5.2.1.2

            Radio weecheese, radio. 11am. Methody one week, pressbutton or anglecans the next. Deadly dull. Roll on lunchtime and the brass bands.

            • Grant 9.5.2.1.2.1

              ‘Twas the wireless..

              • Anne

                I remember the ‘wireless’ on a Sunday morning at 9am. The church service of the day began and the wireless went into ‘off’ mode. As a child I also remember the death of King George 6th. They played funeral music all day for days on end. It was so gloomy and doomy I remember being frightened.

        • The Al1en 9.5.2.2

          Not if you’re a Fulham supporter, Gloopy. No comfort there at all.

      • Sabine 9.5.3

        roman catholic here, and i am not offended at all.

        i don’t think any christian who practices his/her religion would be offended by a call to prayer to commemorate the slaughter of the innocents last week.

        And the call today was not to change anything here but to honor the death.

        So in essence she did everything right.

        • Bewildered 9.5.3.1

          When I travelled the Middle East as a young fella I found the dawn call to prayer very comforting and uplifting Albeit had know idea what they were saying but made for good reflection anyway

          • In Vino 9.5.3.1.1

            Well you should have bloody well found out what they were saying. Real lightweight tourist, weren’t you? No wonder you are now bewildered.

            • solkta 9.5.3.1.1.1

              Forever bewildered it would seem.

              • mac1

                I dunno.I listen to sean nòs Irish singing in the Gaelic. Beautiful. Don’t understand any more than 10 words. But the melody, the tone, the quality of the voice.

                I once attended a Sufi service in Turkey, spinning Dervishes, the works. Brilliant. Didn’t understand a word. Very spiritual, very musical.

                Later I went to a theatre performance of “The Cripple of Inishmaan” in Istanbul. Brilliant. Didn’t understand a word of the Turkish, but I knew the play as I played a role in it.

                For me, as a musician, the Moslem call to music is beautiful in its minor, modal way.

                So I believe I understand BM’s point of view here.

      • SHG 9.5.4

        Remind me of this thread next time the Ratana circle-jerk rolls around.

    • Cinny 9.6

      Say’s the self proclaimed bishop… go freaking figure.

      He does know that Allah is another word for God….. his ignorance is mind boggling.

      PS He’s being slayed on the twitter for it….. good.

    • SHG 9.7

      no true scotsman

  8. Brexit solution ?

    German firm stores 3.5 million toilet rolls in UK to avoid customs delays, builds six weeks supplies of cardboard core imported from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, and charters ships to take supplies from Naples to Swansea .. but what if they run out ?

    Businesses from car manufacturing to supermarkets to pharmaceutical firms have been doing the same with the prospect of lengthy delays and increasing cost of materials.

    The prospect of a British long-drop in winter … ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/21/uk-biggest-toilet-roll-supplier-wepa-stockpiling-no-deal-brexit-avoid-customs-delays

    • Sam 10.1

      Well, you eat the cheese, that blocks you up pretty good and just before you get back to the land of toilets you eat the milk powder. That gets things flowing again.

      • Cataractacus 10.1.1

        Cost inflation is going to be significant in unpredictable areas putting sand in the gears of the economy. It will be interesting, from this distance,

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1

          Cataractacus
          You have got onto a good story there. One of the zillion things that the
          Conservatives haven’t thought of.

          Their recent prowess indicates that they are too old and out of touch with the And keeping the British parliamentary system in its present condition ignores the obvious needed re-organisation. I suggest MMP – we got it from the Germans and it is useful, they should learn from the Germans who have dominated productive enterprise in Europe since World War 2, Brits seem to have settled for financing, being the bankers who watch the screen and don’t see Trouble creeping up behind.

          Brexit decision postponed temporarily – bring it on for the End of May.

          • Gabby 10.1.1.1.1

            Who says they haven’t thought of it? Where there’s scarcity there’s profit.

      • cleangreen 10.1.2

        Sam – ha ha you made me laugh thanks for that.

    • WeTheBleeple 10.2

      Back in the day having spares lying around made businesses resilient to glitches in supply chains and markets. But then the accountants came and taught them to monitor stock and sales in order to hold less stock thus more ‘free capital’.

      This only works when everything’s working.

      While hoarding isn’t helpful, these companies are thinking ahead.

    • Bewildered 10.3

      Brexit is analogous to being at the pub at 2am in the morning and your mate says let’s go to this really good bar down the road You leave the bar but the bar down the road is empty, the doormen won’t let you back in the bar you left , so your left eating a stale kebab on the street

  9. Ankerrawsharkal 11

    Kat re hoots…..didn’t click on the link as don’t want to waste 5minutes of my life…..

    I think in the last week it has been blantantly obvious how pro national and anti labour our msm commentators are……..I know for many this is stating the bleeding obvious, but it has been so amplified in the last week.

    I have read only one positive account of ardern handling of this tragedy and that was from Clare Trevit. John Armstrong had a positive headline, but his first paragraph was a hysterical rant about how gun laws must change and Ardern can’t slip up on this.
    Ffs even the Turkish PM has praised Ardern….where’s Barry, Audrey mike etc……..

    • Kat 11.1

      Ankerrawsharkal, the fish wrap aka the herald fronts as national media and cannot, must not, be allowed to get away with this type of spin. It is the very inciting, influencing propaganda shyte that everyone has been rallying against, just a bit more polished.

      You may have to hold your breath but do read it.

    • Anne 11.2

      I noted the red haired’ Jessica Mutch on TV1 could only manage ‘she’s done quite well’ when asked what she thought of Ardern’s response to the massacre. Dead pan face while she said it gave away her discomfort at having to acknowledge as much.

      ooh sorry… Jessica Mutch-McKay now.

  10. vto 12

    The terrible massacres of last Friday brought out the nutters…

    At the time there were the two people arrested at Papanui – dressed in camo, armed and ready to ‘help’ the police.

    Day after, in our nearby ‘burb, four police cars screamed past to pick up another person, also dressed in camo walking down the street carrying a samurai sword.

    There was another elsewhere in NZ (can’t locate just now).

    Are those the tip of the iceberg? I would guess so. Is perhaps why most all of Christchurch retreated into their homes Friday and stayed put through Saturday and only slowly emerged after that… the streets were not considered safe… and we can now see why …. the camo’ed nutters came out with their weapons..

    .. then yesterday in an outskirts part of the city I found myself down a little-used dead-end road, which at the end had a property with large overgrown trees and dilapidated buildings, with several signs saying “marine exercise zone” type things, and with gun imagery the same as that used by the supremacists and survivalists … I retreated quietly and quickly.

    What a place. Civilization seems like a thin veneer at times…

    • Occasionally the well-constructed media facade slips and middle-class people get to see reality as others do. Don’t worry .. there will soon be a sporting event, celebrity sex scandal, or some other excess which trumps it all. Orwell was right on many levels ..

    • cleangreen 12.2

      vto;

      Auckland has become a ‘basket case’ it seems now clearly depicted by your pictures you VTO have conveyed here on 12.

      I shudder; – now as I was born there in Point Chevalier in 1944.

    • patricia bremner 12.3

      Report that VTO, it is on their radar now.

    • Gabby 12.4

      You’ve reported this, right veetee?

      • vto 12.4.1

        No not yet. It wasn’t that well hidden, and I’m sure the police will be well aware, there being a police station within a km or so.

        .. however I will soon just to be sure

        • Gabby 12.4.1.1

          Don’t bet on it given the general inability to locate arse with both hands they exhibit. Tell them you think it’s communists.

          • Dennis Frank 12.4.1.1.1

            That one did actually make me laugh. Repeatedly. I’ve been learning to develop a healthy respect for your perceptive faculties. Gift of the gab. 😎

  11. Ad 13

    New Zealand government is going to have to re-think ANZAC day.

    Fast approaching.

    The victims should also go on the Wellington National Memorial.

    • cleangreen 13.1

      RSA won’t be able to work that fast Ad;

      RSA – before any changes are ordered, they need to go before the membership firstly,

      Being an ex NZ army and RSA member, we have to vote before any changes are made; – that is our right to democracy we fought in wars to preserve.

      • Ad 13.1.1

        Would expect nothing less from the RSA.

        Ardern’s team including NZDF will do the re- thinking.

        None are exempt.

        • Ed1 13.1.1.1

          I have not really thought of criminal/ terrorist actions within New Zealand as being equivalent to war, although there are obvious similarities between the job police do in peacetime and soldiers do in war. Would it not be the police rather than the victims that should march on ANZAC day? I was also under the impression that New Zealanders have joined with Turkish people in celebrating ANZAC day, and that soldiers from Japan and Germany have joined our forces in commemoration of sacrifices made in times of war. Did concentration camp survivors ever join in such commemorative ceremonies? Perhaps I don’t understand the points you are making, Ad and cleangreen.

          I did serve briefly in a territorial force, but have never belonged to regular forces or the RSA – are they in charge of the national commemorative ceremonies? I see democracy as including civilians – is that wrong?

        • Peter Christchurh nz 13.1.1.2

          You are sounding disturbingly like the Thought Police.

          The victims of this massacre may well deserve their own memorial, but the RSA has guardianship of the War Memorials, and rightly so.

        • Poission 13.1.1.3

          On the 24th april 1915 was the day of red sunday The internment of the Armenian intellectuals and the start of the Armenian pogrom.

          Do you think we should have a Holocaust memorial on the wellington south coast beside the Ataturk memorial?

          Should we have listened to Arthur Conan Doyle and partitioned Germany in 1919 as he suggested to the Anzac club?

          Speaking of the future, Sir Conan Doyle said that thoughtful people could not look at the position without anxiety. The revengeful, brooding German nation, numbering not less than 70 or 80 millions, would be opposite the dwindling French nation, numbering with Alsace-Lorraine not more than 45 millions. If we did not want our children or grand-children to have to do this job again, we ought, now that we had the Germans down, to pull their teeth and cut their claws. (Cheers.) Germany’s military position had been actually. strengthened. In place of great military neighbours like the Russia and Austria which existed before the war, Germany would now have on the east and the south a lot of little States, any of which could be neutralized by a German corps or two. The proposal that the whole west bank of the Rhine should he placed under the administration of France he did not think feasible. It would be going against everything we had fought for in this war, if we put 10,000,000 Germans under the French. It was clean against President Wilson’s 14 points, and once they had been broken to such an extent the whole thing would go by the board. What he thought could easily be done — and he only threw it out as a suggestion — was that territory to the West of the Rhine should be made a separate German country. If the Germans liked to federate, well and good ; but the West of the Rhine should be a unit, when certain laws should not be broken except on pain of war. One law was that out of the population on that side of the Rhine the Germans should get no conscripts.

          https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=File:The-times-1919-01-28-p3-exploits-of-the-anzacs.jpg

    • ​Overdue .. as is a re-assessment of WWI from an Antipodean perspective.

      European histories construct ANZAC as an Anglo-French enterprise which included an Australasian component.

      • Peter Christchurh nz 13.2.1

        Ah, actually it was. Even at Gallipoli, the ANZACs were a relatively minor part of the mix.

      • Cataractacus 13.2.2

        “Unique among World War I campaigns, the fighting at Gallipoli brought together a modern amphibious assault and multi-national combined operations. It took place on a landscape littered with classical and romantic sites – just across the Dardanelles from the ruins of Homer’s Troy. The campaign became, perhaps, the greatest ‘what if’ of the war. The concept behind it was grand strategy of the highest order, had it been successful it might have led to conditions ending the war two years early on Allied terms. This could have avoided the bloodletting of 1916-18, saved Tsarist Russia from revolution and side stepped the disastrous Treaty of Versailles – in effect, altering the course of the entire 20th century.

        This study is the first to focus on operational and campaign-level decisions and actions, which drove the conduct of the campaign. It departs from emotive first-hand accounts and offers a broader perspective of the large scale military planning and maneuvering involved in this monstrous struggle on the shores of European Turkey.”

        https://ospreypublishing.com/gallipoli (pdf)

        https://ospreypublishing.com/mustafa-kemal-ataturk
        Mustafa Kemal at Gallipoli – DTIC
        https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1031579.pdf

    • Gabby 13.3

      Are we at war addy?

      • greywarshark 13.3.1

        Gabby
        If you are not a NZr then you will be interested to know that April 25 each year is called Anzac Day when we honour our killed and indeed all war personnel and the wars we have long been involved in. We usually meet at outdoor commemorative places with a ritual service, well attended. The feature has always been to dwell on WW1 but the other wars are commemorated at the same time.

      • Cataractacus 13.3.2

        It depends on your definition of war, Gabby. We certainly won’t be re-fighting the last one.

    • The victims should also go on the Wellington National Memorial.

      Why? That’s not what the National Memorial is there for. Commemorating this incident isn’t what ANZAC Day’s there for, either.

    • Stuart Munro. 13.5

      I would think Christchurch would be a better place to commemorate them.

  12. Roger Wakefield 14

    Hilarious to see Whale Oil advising members to hide their past comments because apparently there’s some sort of media witch hunt on hate speech. Here’s an example of the sort of stuff they are no longer proud of trumpeting:

    “FreemanNZ Cedric • 7 months ago
    It is difficult, isn’t it, to be polite about people who you can see are being hoodwinked into supporting a cause like ‘multiculturalism’ when in fact they are just an unwitting rent-a-crowd organised remotely via easily-manipulated pathetic social justice warriors by outfits like the Federation of Islamic Associations of NZ to suppress knowledge of what Islam has in store for us kaffirs.
    I really believe it should be legal to preemptively do to Muslims what they pray five times a day they will do to those of us who refuse to convert to their way.”

    Lovely stuff, in the hallowed name of free speech. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, however hateful. But at least have the guts to put your name to your words.

    • Peter Christchurh nz 14.1

      Under the Fatman, Whaleoil was at least interesting from a political perspective from time to time (whether or not you agreed with his rantings).

      Over the last year, the site has noticeably moved to a Fundamentalist Christian/Hate speech site.

      With Fatmans wife now in control, it is endless worshipping of Milo Yiannopoulos and Tommy Robinson (both comic book characters with assumed names).

      I would be surprised if that site remains at its current level a year from now.

    • Anne 14.2

      Your comment sent me off to Whale Oil to see how they have been coping with the past week. Some retard called “Wibble’ summed up their take on events:

      I feel this too. Jacinda is being praised by her sycophantic media as being a heroine for the country, while she has oppressed and distanced the majority of Kiwis, who now live in fear. In just 1.5 years of this coalition government, sensible thinking people now live in fear. Think about that. What is going to happen in the next 1.5 years?

      I see…. Jacinda Ardern is the perpetrator – including the massacre?

      Wot about the gunman in police custody then? Will they set him free cos he’s not done nuffink wrong. It was Jacinda.

      Seriously though, her protection is now paramount. She will be target No.1 for a long time to come. It’s a big worry.

  13. Lookout !!!- here comes Judith !!!

    Judith Collins to gun lobby: Bugger off | Newshub
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/…/03/judith-collins-to-gun-lobby-bugger-off.html

    • Robert Guyton 15.1

      Where’s that photo of Judith Collins, gleeful expression on her face, firing rounds from a pistol at the police firing range?

    • cleangreen 15.2

      Yep Wild Katipo,

      We saw that in today’s TV one meet Labour/Nats back benchers expose.

      She said Bugger off Gun Lobby.

      She wants to use the same method of crushing the rifles as she used for cars?

      “Crusher Collins is back”

      • greywarshark 15.2.1

        WK
        Please don’t just talk about the incident being a sullying thing for our nation without mentioning the people involved in the tragedy. And that it has been heart-breaking for those left grieving for their dead and injured. I think they should be referred to in a general summary of the sad event and its effects.

        • WILD KATIPO 15.2.1.1

          Yeah I thought about that , then I thought ‘our nation ‘ is inclusive of those who died.

          Getting a little tired of the nitpicking and sniping from you mate. If what I typed seemed a little cold and detached it wasn’t meant to be.

    • WeTheBleeple 15.3

      We all have a role we are great at. And with bipartisanship we have exactly what it takes to get shit done.

      Judith – Attack!

      Scarier than Mitchell.

  14. greywarshark 16

    Dying when the individual decide the time is right.
    Can we have that for the terminally ill and similar please.

    https://www.noted.co.nz/health/health/lecretia-seales-matt-vickers-makes-his-case-for-death-with-dignity/
    As Parliament’s Justice Select Committee prepares to report back on David Seymour’s controversial End of Life Choice Bill, Matt Vickers – the widower of assisted dying advocate Lecretia Seales – makes his case for death with dignity.

    • cleangreen 16.1

      Greywarshark,

      I was injured in Canada in 1992 when working in an unventilated 12 story office building in downtown Toronto for six months and suffered eventually from chronic chemical poisoning that almost cost me my life.

      Prior to walking into that building i was a very health fit kiwi with a impeccable medical health record shown by the Bell Canada employment records after application medical testing before being hired onto the job.

      I was an active Kiwi in the Toronto “Tranzac” Kapahaka group representing NZ.

      After toxic chemical poisoning I lost 30% of my memory, muscle power and mobility, and was actually dying with Toxic Encephalopathy and chemical overload.

      I have defied the sentence of death so far and now live away from chemicals and after years of “detoxifying my brain and body can attest to being able to life longer, so no-one need to call it quits early in life.

      I have lost my former ‘full’ life but still have a life today.

      http://www.ajnr.org/content/ajnr/13/2/747.full.pdf

      There is growing awareness that chronic intoxications by industrial, agricultural, iatrogenic, and environmental pollution may have teratogenic or oncogenic influence or may cause neurologic or psychiatric syndromes.
      Toxic encephalopathy (TE) is the result of the interaction of a chemical compound with the brain. Disturbance of normal brain function is caused by:
      1. depletion of oxidative energy;
      2. nutritional deprivation affecting nerves and
      neurons;
      3. exposure to foreign material which may be
      a. exogenous in origin,
      b. generated within the central nervous
      system, or
      c. generated within the body;
      4. derangement of neurotransmission;
      5. altered ion balance;
      6. antigenic activity.
      The list of examples of toxic encephalopathy is long and reflects the real difficulty in recognizing that slow deterioration of neurologic functions indicates poisoning by a toxin.

      • patricia bremner 16.1.1

        Hi Cleangreen, my uncle had severe lead poisoning, as a plumber, and parkinsons in later life. He had chelation therapy and lived a further 15 years.

        • cleangreen 16.1.1.1

          Hi Patricia yes so do I have chelation also.

          The sad part was I was not covered by chelation in Canada or NZ so I still pay today for it but it is great also for unblocking arteries also for those who’ve high blood pressure or heavy arterial plague as it works like a drain cleaner too.

          Glad your dad lived longer and we need the NZ Medical services to use these less invasive and less costly treatments.

          The Germans are well known for their cleverness to treat their people and chelation was invented by them in 1946 after the armament workers in Germany also fell sick after ‘heavy metal poisoning’, so our health folks here in NZ can’t say it doesn’t work can they?

      • Dennis Frank 16.1.2

        Hell, what a terrible thing to happen! You wrote unventilated, so do you mean the poison entered through your lungs? If so, were you the only one there affected like this? Science can’t explain why some folks prove susceptible to shit when others in identical circumstances are unaffected, eh? Was the actual chemical that caused it identified?

  15. WeTheBleeple 17

    Friday the 15th.

    We who have inhaled the long white cloud
    To dream upon its hills
    Do you remember then the call to peace
    To embrace our Mother Earth

    Recall
    Vanity that sobered us owning
    Them then this and these
    Concerns
    As fences were erected
    Property
    Boundaries of our souls

    Each conquest is a limitation
    More we must control
    And fences get erected
    Boundaries to our souls

    We added letters to our names engaged
    In furious debate
    To justify the child who died
    For greed and selfish hate

    Then pompously we strutted
    Out of touch and growing old
    Angry little white men
    Bounded by black souls.

  16. Kay 18

    Just got back from Kilbirnie Mosque. Very heartening to see the large numbers of people who turned out. I’m not good on estimating numbers, but certainly high 100s, if not more. I’d say more, maybe there’ll be something in the media later. It was a bit disappointing that those of us not near the Mosque were unable to hear the call to prayer, I thought perhaps it might be said over a loudspeaker today, but in the scheme of things it’s not important. It’s that we were there.

    • Kay 18.1

      RNZ just said it was 1000s. I shouldn’t even try to guess at crowd sizes 🙂

    • patricia bremner 18.2

      True Kay, I watched on TV, as I am not driving again yet. A huge crowd in the main service. Very moving.

  17. ScottGN 19

    The Editorial Board of the New York Times;

    ‘America deserves a Leader as Good as Jacinda Ardern’
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/opinion/new-zealand-ardern.html

    • Gabby 19.1

      America can bloody well prove it.

      • Sam 19.1.1

        America is prove? There stands a need for some one to step into the void and repair trust and empathy. If you can strip away the jargon and see what’s going on underneath all the chaos and self deception, the concepts become really easy to understand. And once concepts become easy to understand then normal people can understand these really complex economic, forign affairs and financial shenanigans going on in Merica.

    • Incognito 19.2

      You reap what you sow and America has the bigly leader it deserves and who will MAGA after he’s drained that swamp …

  18. WeTheBleeple 20

    Cartoon depicting ‘Toxic Tribalism’, a term gaining popularity.

    I’ve read a few of the articles and though some were good, none were so succinct as this image I found in one.

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1000/1*VToE6EbINdU40YkI8j7hiw.jpeg

  19. Anne 21

    I remember the ‘wireless’ on a Sunday morning at 9am. The church service of the day began and the wireless went into ‘off’ mode. As a small child I also remember the death of King George 6th. They played funeral music all day for days on end. It was so gloomy and doomy I remember being frightened.

  20. Angry Male Syndrome plus Methamphetamine = F&#k Up

    • OnceWasTim 22.1

      Agree @ Skunk ………… so what would you prescribe other than a cyanide tablet?
      I reckon maybe 50 migs of largactil with breakfast plus nightly oestrogen injections.
      Waddya reckon? after a few weeks …… the patient will look like Donald Trump with tits and a shrivelled up dick. That should do it eh?

  21. Eco Maori 24

    This is us Maori have been masacared in our hundreds Men Wahine tamariki to we are treaded like dirt and the power that be steer into te matariki and DENIE THIS REALITY.
    Māori leaders critique ‘this is not us’ sentiment
    Links below ka kite ano

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018687539/maori-leaders-critique-this-is-not-us-sentiment P.S ITs minuplation when one search engine can not find storys on MAORI

  22. eco maori 25

    Former Gloriavale man family dies in crash leaving he had all his other members divert the course of justice the police did not get to see him till the next day he was drink driving and killed his family in a truck crashed into a tree he got off this CULT Has more power than the whole of the Maori RACE .They have there christian members RUNNING THE POLICE FORCE IN New Zealand REDNECKS Christians looking at Maori Cultures as spitting at US that is quite plan for Eco Maori to SEE.
    I have been SITTING on this Story for a few years TIME IS NOW TO let you know whats is happening in New Zealand.
    A great Maori Man gets conned into doing wrong what does the UNJUSTICE SYSTEM do to this great MAORI MAN they lock him up and he dies in JAIL WTF an white man kills his family he a Gloriavale man he gets off scott FREE linls below ka kite ano

    Māori leader, academic and businessman Sir Ngātata Love has died.
    Love, 81, died peacefully at his Korokoro home on Wednesday last week, surrounded by loving whānau.
    Born in Lower Hutt, Love was a powerful advocate for Māori throughout the lower North Island, working with various groups on Waitangi Tribunal claims and land issues He was a professor in business studies, managed the Wellington Tenths Trust and the Palmerston North Māori Reserve Land Trust, and served terms as chief executive of Te Puni Kokiri and the Ministry of Māori Development. P.S The unjustice system broke his Mana Wairua Eco Maori will never let them do that to me thanks to my tipunas

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12146989

  23. Eco Maori 26

    I a Anglican church member my Mama took me to church every Sunday when she was alive.
    The Anglican Church works with Maori Culture unlike some that just try and extinguish Maori culture Mauri Mana Wairua

  24. Eco Maori 27

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  25. Eco Maori 28

    Eco Maori does not champion violence I say Peter Toshs song means the good leftys from around te Papatuanuku must stand up and take CONTROL OF OUR FUTURES.

  26. Eco Maori 29

    Kia ora Newshub Ka pai to the 3 tamariki who organisationed a march for LOVE that’s how we should treat EVERYONE like how you would your kuia grandmother.
    Good on Winston to go to Istanbul to smove the WAI with their tangata.
    ‘I” The big tech companies need to do there best to keep the haters in check so they can not use there platforms to generate MORE HATE.
    Its getting hot in there USA that is.
    It might be calm in your neck of the woods boy but the sandflys are attaking my WHANAU anyway they can dream up get a tissue. Ka kite ano P.S

  27. Eco Maori 30

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News I have commented on the Aroha I thank them. You want the truth about gangs the sandflys nerture them they breed gangs to put down te tangata whenua O Atoearoa Mana and Wairua into the dirt and you wankers are helping them some of the ones put on camera are getting there profiles cleaned so that the ASSETS NARKS can help the sandflys lock up more innercint Maori I know that for a FACT. The unjustified system made gang as a weapon against Maori. I say this but I will still treat te tangata with respect because they don’t get the big picture Eco Maori gets it Ka kite ano

  28. Eco Maori 31

    PS not all gangs are caught in the white man hinaki I no what they look like

  29. Eco Maori 33

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

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    5 days ago
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  • Life in Lock Down: Day 6
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  • Hard News: MUSIC: Lockdown Grooves
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  • Rāhui day 3
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  • How Do You Feel? What Do You Think?
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  • New Zealanders in Peru to be assisted by Government charter flight
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  • COVID-19 Hospital Preparation Well Advanced
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    3 days ago
  • Further measures to support businesses
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    3 days ago
  • Govt’s COVID plan, economic strength recognised
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    3 days ago
  • Funding certainty for sports through COVID-19
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  • Butchers now allowed to process pork
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  • Essential workers leave scheme established
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    4 days ago
  • Govt WhatsApp helps share COVID-19 information
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  • Managed departure plan for stranded foreign nationals enables safe, orderly exit
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  • Government delivers COVID-19 support to GPs and Pharmacies
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  • Susan Thomas the new Chief High Court Judge
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  • Business Finance Guarantee – applications open
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    5 days ago
  • Work starts on ways to fast-track consents to boost recovery from Covid-19 downturn
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  • Advance payments to support contractors
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  • Government seeks infrastructure projects
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    6 days ago
  • Health system scaled up to prepare for COVID-19
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    6 days ago
  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
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  • Supermarkets able to open on Easter Sunday
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  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
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    6 days ago
  • State of National Emergency extended
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    6 days ago
  • Strong Govt books support ‘go hard, go early’ response
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    6 days ago
  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
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    1 week ago
  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
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    1 week ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
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    1 week ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
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    1 week ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
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    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
    The Government has made modifications to the wage subsidy scheme to ensure people don’t lose their jobs during the national lockdown. These changes will soften the impact of COVID-19 on workers, families and businesses, and position them to exit the lockdown and look to recovery, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
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    1 week ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
    A $27 million dollar package, effective immediately, is being provided to social sector services and community groups to ensure they can continue to provide essential support to communities as we stay at home as a nation to stop the spread of COVID-19, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced. “At ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
    “The guilty plea today will provide some relief to the many people whose lives were shattered by what happened on March 15,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “These guilty pleas and conviction bring accountability for what happened and also save the families who lost loved ones, those who were injured, ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • COVID-19 updates
    The Prime Minister is holding daily press conferences to update New Zealanders on the Government's response to COVID-19. Links to videos and transcripts of these updates below. These transcripts also include All of Government press conferences led by Director Ministry of Health's Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. 25 March: Live update from the Prime ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
    Frontline Police numbers have broken through the 10,000 mark for the first time in history as officers step forward to keep the community safe during the COVID19 lockdown. “Two Police graduations in Auckland and Wellington in the past week have been conducted in unprecedented circumstances,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said. ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
    Immediate freeze on rent increases Tenancies will not be terminated during the lock-down period, unless the parties agree, or in limited circumstances Tenants who had previously given notice can stay in their if they need to stay in the tenancy during the lock-down period Tenants will still be able to ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
    As New Zealand unites to lock-down in the fight against COVID-19, the Finance Minister is urging all businesses and workers to stay connected over the next four weeks. “We understand the extreme pressure many businesses are under right now. I know most business owners think of their workers as family ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
    A State of National Emergency has been declared across the country as the Government pulls out all the stops to curtail the spread of COVID-19. “Today we put in place our country’s second ever State of National Emergency as we fight a global pandemic, save New Zealanders’ lives and prevent ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
    Mr Speaker I wish to make a Ministerial Statement under Standing Order 347 in relation to the recent declaration of a State of National Emergency. Having considered the advice of the Director Civil Defence Emergency Management, the Minister of Civil Defence declared a State of National Emergency for the whole of ...
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    2 weeks ago