Open mike 22/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:04 am, February 22nd, 2014 - 174 comments
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174 comments on “Open mike 22/02/2014 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    22 February 2014 at 7:04 am

    Immigrants Should “Fit In”

    Maori have a “Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry”

    Traditional Winston Peters racist tub thumping to drum up votes.

    Winston Peters is playing the racist card, because he has nothing else, as he positions himself to prop up National after the election.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9749504/Immigrants-should-fit-in-says-Peters

    “The speech contained no new policy – only a hint of a future tax break on private health insurance after a question from the audience.”
    Hamish Rutherford Stuff.co.nz

    What more need be said?.

    Other than:

    A vote for New Zealand First is a vote for National

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1
      22 February 2014 at 7:31 am

      It’s nasty stuff alright, but Peters is playing both sides:

      Blaming economic reform dating back to the 1980s as the cause of a range of issues facing New Zealand today, Peters said privatisation mainly affected Maori.

      Instead of taking steps to fix the problems, successive governments had instead turned to appeasing Maori leaders.

      • phillip ure 1.1.1
        22 February 2014 at 7:40 am

        i think the best tack to take against peters –

        is to argue that a vote for peters/nz first..

        ..is not a ‘safe’ vote ..

        ..for anyone who opposes this govt..and wants change..

        ..and it’s an easily-understandable/simple/true/factual-message..

        ..a vote for peters..could well turn into a vote for key…

        (..tho’..as for that peter’s-quote featured by oan..

        ..it’s hard to argue against the facts of the matter of that..eh..?..)

        ..phillip ure..

        • chris73 1.1.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 7:42 am

          A vote for Winston is a vote for whatever party offers him the most

          • Chooky 1.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2014 at 8:29 am

            Winnie will go with Labour…so for Christs sake dont alienate him

            ( fools you dont want to push him into the arms of NACT do you?…and another NACT government….. because they DO need him!

            ….and there is nothing wrong with fitting into NZ values eg Pommie elitist class system wallers have to fit into NZ egalitarian ideas…cultures where the female is second class to the male and /or to be exploited for profit must fit into out values of human rights for women as equals and NOT to be ill treated or exploited)

            • karol 1.1.1.1.1.1
              22 February 2014 at 8:39 am

              I am intrigued about Winston going with a tip off from a real estate person about the alleged selling of the Huka Lodge. How could the estate agent have got it soooo wrong?

              Definite whiff of a rat and dirty tricks.

              • phillip ure …
                22 February 2014 at 8:58 am

                how could someone believe anything a real estate salesperson tells them..?

                ..about anything..?

                ..phillip ure..

              • Skinny …
                22 February 2014 at 9:55 am

                That’s just Winston responding to his anti National supporters who wanted a clear message he wouldn’t run with National at his State of the Nation speech. Peters pulled that one out of his arse and pinned the ‘pending’ sale to John Key. A bit of a cryptic message but those who ‘believe’ heard it loud and clear lol. Huka Lodge is already foreign owned, just not by the Chinese ‘yet’.

                As we know Winston extracts plenty of votes out of the Asian bashing trip. My wise old mum would argue till she was blue in the face that Peters was part Chinese, so it’s if true its ironic he bashes both Maori & Chinese.

                • JanM …
                  22 February 2014 at 10:11 am

                  If ‘my wise old mum’ was that wise she would know that Winston’s ethnic ancestry is completely irrelevant as he is talking about culture not ethnicity. If you go down that pathway you are in danger of playing the race card

                  • Skinny …
                    22 February 2014 at 10:48 am

                    Cut it out Jan. Winston may have toned down his racist crap in recent years but every now and then he can’t help having a crack at migrants. Not too long ago it was Chinese migrant restaurants not paying tax, indian migrant taxi driver over charging, this is only a couple that spring to mind.

                    Why can’t I recall seeing any Kiwi’s of Chinese or Indian ethnicity at ‘any’ of his rally’s over the years. Because one would assume they wouldn’t want to be sitting there listening to Peters attacking immigrants from their part of the World.

                    • JanM …
                      22 February 2014 at 10:51 am

                      I don’t think you understand the difference between race and culture. It’s the difference between how you look because of who your ancestors were and how you think because of where you were brought up, to put it simply

                • veutoviper …
                  22 February 2014 at 11:14 am

                  Could not resist this link, Skinny. As your wise old mum said, back in 2002 , Peters claimed that Maori originally came from mainland China.

                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=2097764

                  • JanM …
                    22 February 2014 at 11:32 am

                    He is an educated man, veutoviper, and that is the current theory based on research to date
                    It’s obvious you don’t get the difference between ethnicity and culture, either

                    • Disraeli Gladstone …
                      22 February 2014 at 11:47 am

                      Is it the current theory?

                      Because South East Asia =/= China. And I thought the current theory was South East Asia.

                      Now, obviously, you can suggest that maybe the people of South East Asia originated from China (or vice versa). But if you’re going to keep going back, then we all started off roughly from the same place anyway.

                      Which makes the whole argument rather silly, yes.

                    • veutoviper …
                      22 February 2014 at 11:48 am

                      I do actually, JanM – that is, get the difference bwtween ethnicity and culture.

                      I also know Peters is an educated man – worked with him on and off for years professionally through Parliament. And I am not disputing the theory of where Maori originated. I was simply providing a link to verify that Peters had raised this back in 2002.

                    • NickS …
                      22 February 2014 at 8:52 pm

                      Actually current genetics studies coalesces on Sundaland, the landform now under water that bridged Indochina to Borneo + some of the major Indonesian islands. It’s drowning led to major population migrations that colonised Taiwan, Philippines etc. Should be covered by the austronesian page on wikipedia.

                  • Skinny …
                    22 February 2014 at 12:18 pm

                    Ha ha well there you go then cheers for that viper gave me a good laugh, my dear old mum (late) must have been a fortune teller the old duck was saying this in the late 80’s. Of course I use to rubbish her claim. Even from the grave she gets the last laugh bless her 🙂

                    • Chooky …
                      22 February 2014 at 1:24 pm

                      @ Skinny…not disputing your esteemed dear Mother but Winnie looks more like he has Japanese blood to me ..rather than Chinese ( maybe she really meant Japanese?…..get out the ouija board and lets give your Mum a call….she probably knows the final answer now on Winnie’s ancestors)

                      ….but of course Winnie has a Scottish Mother he was devoted to ….so that could explain a few things also

                  • mikesh …
                    22 February 2014 at 12:35 pm

                    The Maori language is apparently Indo-European, which suggests an Indian origin rather than Chinese.

                    • Fran …
                      22 February 2014 at 1:35 pm

                      mikesh,

                      Unless there has been a huge shift in comparative linguistics since I studied, Maori is not an Indo-European language but is Proto-Polynesian in origin. The latest DNA trails for Maori ancestry suggest Taiwan or it’s vicinity as the beginning place for Polynesian migration so China is not that out there as a statement.

                      Sorry just couldn’t let it go.

                    • swordfish …
                      22 February 2014 at 10:44 pm

                      Yep, Fran, Taiwan is my understanding too.

              • Mary …
                22 February 2014 at 11:04 am

                Peters went too soon. Should’ve kept his powder dry. Now Key et al have time to do more to distance themselves from the OIO and the Chinese group can do more to disguise themselves then the sale will go ahead and Key can claim he never lied. Just like the Winebox – Peters went way too soon. Peters finally won that fight but by the time the High Court quashed the Davison Inquiry everybody was sick of hearing about it.

                But yes, how could Peters have got it so wrong? Well, he went too soon, but also you’ve got to remember that Key has got a machine behind him that clears everything in his way. As soon as Peters raised the issue it went into action.

              • greywarbler …
                22 February 2014 at 1:00 pm

                Yes didn’t seem that Winston got his facts right. And he usually tries to. Se that informant is a rat.

                And Winston on immigrants. He is spending any credits he has built up each time he comes out with such blatant troublemaking fingerpointing and good policy-denying attacks.

                Politicians holding themselves out as good people have to show some practicality and some ethics if they hope to get the vote of the thinking public.

                NACTs of course, don’t have to worry about that – they just have to appeal to those to whom money and the advancement of their own plans, is the god they worship, and any lies that further the attainment of it are overlooked, invisible.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                22 February 2014 at 4:15 pm

                Or SNAFU.

            • JanM 1.1.1.1.1.2
              22 February 2014 at 9:38 am

              I agree – I believe, having received this information from a reliable source, that asset sales are the not negotiable bottom line for New Zealand First

              • weka …
                22 February 2014 at 10:06 am

                Then why don’t they say so?

                • Pascal's bookie …
                  22 February 2014 at 10:35 am

                  It’s irrelevant. National will be selling genesis before the election.

                  There won’t be any in the table for the next term, and Winston will claim that as a victory for him.

                • JanM …
                  22 February 2014 at 10:48 am

                  I guess perhaps that in a situation where they held the balance of power they hold some hope that national would be desperate enough to concede this point for their support – fat chance, of course, because part of their policy is to buy back the shares at no more than they were initially sold for.
                  They probably prefer not to lay all their cards on the table at this stage – gives the nats too much time to wriggle and plot.

                  • weka …
                    22 February 2014 at 10:58 am

                    That’s a generous interpretation. Based on Peters history, I would say it’s more likely that it suits his own power games and ploys to not be honest and open before the election.

                    Because of that, I think a vote for NZF is a not a left wing vote, and people need to be aware of that. If you want a left wing govt, then vote on the left. If you don’t mind whether we have a left wing govt or not, then vote NZF.

                    • JanM …
                      22 February 2014 at 11:29 am

                      No, it’s not a left wing vote, you’re right there. I can’t think of any good reason why you would vote for them unless you agreed with the whole package – dead rats and all!

                    • marty mars …
                      22 February 2014 at 11:39 am

                      1 I agree weka. The big issue this year will be sorting out these ‘camps’ and where political parties sit as opposed to where they pretend to sit.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      22 February 2014 at 1:04 pm

                      “The big issue this year will be sorting out these ‘camps’ and where political parties sit as opposed to where they pretend to sit.”

                      With regrad to Winston, it’s really not that difficult.

                      Only vote for Winston if you want Winston more than you care about who he hooks up with.

                      Winston draws votes from both national and labour. He won’t rule out going with either of them. He will attack both of them during the campaign in order to wedge support of them. He’ll attack the left for it’s liberalism, (seeking lefty conservatives) and the right for it’s economics (seeking righty nationalists).

                      If you have a preference for who he teams up with, vote for that preference. You cannot predict who he will go with, because who he goes with will be determined by negotiations post election.

                • veutoviper …
                  22 February 2014 at 11:29 am

                  Weka, throughout the asset sales referendum period, Peters continually said that if NZF was in a position to influence the next government that they would be pushing for the asset shares to be bought back.

                  NZF has a whole section on their website setting out their position against asset sales.

                  http://nzfirst.org.nz/what-we-stand-for/no-asset-sales
                  http://nzfirst.org.nz/article/our-asset-sales-buyback-promise-radio-live-column

                  • weka …
                    22 February 2014 at 11:46 am

                    Do either of those two links tell me which parties NZF would or wouldn’t go into coalition with, or support to be government?

                    • veutoviper …
                      22 February 2014 at 11:58 am

                      That is a different subject that Peters has spoken about several times recently. Try searching yourself – eg the NZF website, or use Google.

                      Re my views on this, see my comment at 1.4.1.2 bwlow.

                    • weka …
                      22 February 2014 at 12:13 pm

                      If you can’t answer my question, that’s fine. Not sure why you have responded to my comment though. I’m pointing out that voting NZF isn’t guaranteed to be a vote for a left wing govt. Until Peters states categorically before the election what he will actually do, then any vote for NZF is a risk if you want a left wing govt.

                      What you personally believe (as per 1.4.1.2) is interesting to gain your perspective, but it doesn’t have any bearing on what I just said (in fact it confirms it. We are reduced to trying to guess what Peters will do).

                    • veutoviper …
                      22 February 2014 at 2:39 pm

                      My reply above re asset sales with the two links was actually a response to your earlier unnumbered reply to JanM’s comment at 1.1.1.1.1.2, ie

                      JanM – “I agree – I believe, having received this information from a reliable source, that asset sales are the not negotiable bottom line for New Zealand First”

                      Your reply – “Then why don’t they say so?”

                      My reply to both of you was pointing out that Peters has been saying publicly for many months that assets sales are a no go for NZF. I don’t know who JanM’s reliable source is, but I have heard Peters on radio (RNZ National) use exactly those words that no asset sales are the non-negotiable bottom line – and also seen it in online on Stuff and/or Herald.

                      So that reply was not responding to your later question as to who NZF would or would not go into coalition with, or support.

                      My response to that is that Peters has always (to date anyway) refused to disclose this prior to an election. His stance in years past was that he would talk to the party with the largest vote. His stance in more recent years as MMP has bedded in has been to avoid this statement directly (as it was very FPP not MMP) and to play coy. His stance prior to the 2011 election was that NZF would probably remain on the cross benches regardless of which main party got to govern.

                      So far, Peters has refused to say which way they may go this election – and he has been interviewed many times to repond to Key’s recent overtures to NZF. (And no, I am not going to go looking for links. Other people, including presumably you, are just as capable as me to search Google.) On past behaviour, he will presumably maintain this stance right up to the election. But the way this crazy election year is shaping up, any thing could happen.

                      So, at the end of the day, you are right that a vote for NZF is no guarantee that this will support a left wing government.

                      As I said in 1.4.1.2 below, IMO Peters will not go with National, but he may again choose to stay on the cross benches if NZF get back in. Only time will tell.

                    • weka …
                      22 February 2014 at 3:04 pm

                      Fair enough 🙂 Looks like we were talking at cross purposes. I’m not disputing Peters’ statements about asset sales, I’m disputing how to interpret those statements in an election year. We seem to be in agreement on that.

                      Having said that, even with those statements, I find it hard to place any absolute trust in them. Perhaps Peters will find a way to support National on confidence and supply but vote against any asset sales legislation. When people on the left start implying that his stance on asset sales = he will go with the left, I want to bang my head on the desk at the illogic (looking further upthread).

                    • veutoviper …
                      22 February 2014 at 3:44 pm

                      Glad that is sorted!

                      Just one more point/question – NZF did not provide Confidence and Supply to National in this electoral cycle, so why would they in the next? Just me stirring the pot, LOL. But my thoughts but not money is still that he may again take the cross benches approach.

                    • weka …
                      22 February 2014 at 4:21 pm

                      I suppose I don’t enjoy speculating on what Peters might or might not do as much as some 😉 because I see the potential for so much damage. I think a better take home message is the man can’t be trusted, and if you want a left wing govt then vote on the left.

          • tricledrown 1.1.1.1.2
            22 February 2014 at 10:33 am

            C73 the more Key puts Winston down the more Peters attacks Key.
            The price of the baubles Key will have to pay goes up.
            In the most the collateral damage will damage National.
            The bigger the dead Rat Key will have to swallow .

    • Disraeli Gladstone 1.2
      22 February 2014 at 8:36 am

      It’s throughly disgusting and also very annoying.

      I don’t want Winston anywhere near government. Unfortunately, both parties will probably take him in to give themselves a majority and there’s nothing my vote can do to stop that.

      • Chooky 1.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 10:11 am

        …well Cambidge man i would expect this from you

        i find it very interesting that those who seem to hate Winnie the most are usually new immigrant Poms…..and i have met a few of them…. usually aspiring middle class pretentious Poms …think they are a cut above the local rif raff

        ….closet racism and classism imo…i mean how dare that darkie native be so stroppy, outspoken , intelligent and have a such following by NZers which makes him king maker….all very galling!

        • Disraeli Gladstone 1.2.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 11:43 am

          It’s nothing about Winston Peters’s skin colour. And it’s certainly nothing to do with his evident intellect. It’s more to do with the fact that while all politicians lie, Winston takes it to an art form.

          I have a fair bit of time for someone like Hone Harawira. I don’t agree with him on much. Sometimes I find his language a little offensive. But overall, he’s passionate and honest about what he wants to do. He’s a great representative for his constituency.

          Winston? Not really honest. And the way he swaps his principles for the baubles of office, not that passionate either.

          Also, you seem to have taken my education and spun a lot of assumptions out of it. A lot of them not true.

          • Chooky 1.2.1.1.1
            22 February 2014 at 2:51 pm

            Winston does not lie where it counts….He has stood on a platform of NO SALE of STATE ASSETS and has been true to it

            ….”Winston takes it [lying] to an art form”

            …This is a NACT slur…..because they hate him for bringing down their government on the SALE of STATE ASSETS….when they were the liars

            • Disraeli Gladstone 1.2.1.1.1.1
              22 February 2014 at 2:56 pm

              Huh.

              National campaigned on the sale of state assets. They may have done it in a ridiculously idiotic way that made no sense from an economic sense… but they did say they were going to do it.

              They didn’t lie. They were just dumb.

              Edit: Oh, or are you talking about something when Winston was last in government with the Nats. When Winston joined with a government that had already sold several assets…

              • Chooky …
                22 February 2014 at 4:09 pm

                I am talking about the Bolger Shipley NACT government …this may be before your time in New Zealand

        • JanM 1.2.1.2
          22 February 2014 at 12:27 pm

          I think they thought they were going to add culture to the sum of things out here and that we should be grateful to have them – the raj and all that.
          They’re also not that fond of pakeha, for that matter, especially ones that have any appreciation and depth of knowledge about the history of this country – they mostly vote ‘conservative’ of course, because after all, that’s what the ‘proper’ people do. It almost makes one sympathise with Winston’s immigration policy!

          • Disraeli Gladstone 1.2.1.2.1
            22 February 2014 at 12:36 pm

            Immigrants from the United Kingdom have consistently been left-wing/liberals since the very beginning of the Empire to after its slow, drawn-out collapse.

            It’s quite logical, actually. The privilege elites don’t leave the country they have a favoured position in. It’s the down and outs who escape overseas.

            So you’re comment doesn’t even make sense from a historical or logical point of view.

            Congratulations.

            Also, do you generally think the vast majority of British people still think of the Raj and go around toasting the Queen and so on?

            Sigh.

            • JanM 1.2.1.2.1.1
              22 February 2014 at 12:39 pm

              Perhaps you’ve never come across the section of NZ society that chooky and I are talking about – lucky you!

              • Disraeli Gladstone …
                22 February 2014 at 12:45 pm

                Or you’re just making shit up and extrapolating a few individual cases across an entire culture of people…

                • JanM …
                  22 February 2014 at 9:57 pm

                  No, I;m not ‘making shit up’, but I also was not talking about ‘an entire culture of people’, just the kind that chooky referred to

            • Puddleglum 1.2.1.2.1.2
              22 February 2014 at 3:43 pm

              While I’d agree, overall there’s a more complicated heritage.

              The empire was governed by virtue of a segment of the elite becoming ex-pats and, often, managing either the colonial bureaucracy or commercial operations (or both given their inherent overlap and purposes). But, in New Zealand’s case at least, there was also an ‘aspiring’ capitalist class who came from relatively modest origins in the UK. See No Idle Rich by Jim McAloon for details of the South Island wealthy.

              Nevertheless, it wasn’t for no reason that Muldoon spoke of ‘Pommie stirrers’ and prominent unionists having ‘Clydeside accents’. Most of the colonial labour-force and foot soldiers in the military were as you describe, as I understand it.

    • Molly 1.3
      22 February 2014 at 8:47 am

      Watched the old PBS documentary A Class Divided with the family yesterday, about a teacher’s experiment that divided a third-grade class in the US into blue-eyed and brown eyed groups.

      Followed up the discussion with a readout of the checklist from Peggy McIntosh’s Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack about privilege and the unwillingness to recognise it.

      Have had a couple of discussions about “privilege” lately, and the lack of acknowledgement. Seems like this is a good place to direct those I had difficultly explaining to.

      • swordfish 1.3.1
        22 February 2014 at 10:57 pm

        Yeah, I actually remember seeing the earlier doco about her blue-eye/brown-eye experiment: Eye of the storm (1971) as a kid in the early 70s. Broadcast on TVNZ (or should that be NZBC ?).

    • Skinny 1.4
      22 February 2014 at 9:04 am

      I am starting to be convinced Winston has no intention whatsoever of runing with National and will start really honing in on Key for mismanagement of our economy. Joyce continues to message some happy deal has been done, with as Stephen says things like “Grumpy Uncle Winston”.

      As Nationals campaign manger, Joyce knows full well the election result can go many ways for his team, from a solid win where they govern alone, thru to a total whitewash if many of the 800,000 show up polling day.

      The current strong polling for National is not good for Winston, he wants it tight so NZF has influence. Peters is now in a position where he has to sustain a prolonged attack to trim back Nationals lead, that’s if Labour don’t get their shot together. He may be forced to make overtones of a NO deal earlier than the last fortnight, categoric NO deal.

      John Key and Winston Peters can’t stand each other, I’m not sure who hates each other the most, I have a feeling it will be Winston who shows the most hatred in the end.

      • Bearded Git 1.4.1
        22 February 2014 at 10:07 am

        Agreed Skinny.

        Watch the body language in parliament. Winston can’t stand Key and will go with Labour and Greens-notice how the relationship between NZF and the Greens has thawed in this term.

        • Pasupial 1.4.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 10:24 am

          BG

          Peters started in politics with National; it’s just Key he can’t stand. My fear is that the Smiling Assassin will hang around long enough to win the election for the right, then abscond to Hawaii during the post-vote wrangling (sure, he said he’d be there for the full term, but do even the RWNJs believe any word that oozes from from his lips these days?). Then it’ll be a repay of 1996 with Collins shoulder tapped for the Shipley role.

          The only solution I can see is for the combined left to get enough votes that Winston First has to give them confidence & supply.

        • veutoviper 1.4.1.2
          22 February 2014 at 10:41 am

          I agree with both you and Skinny.

          I don’t believe that Peters would go into coalition with National. The animosity is too great and has built since 2008.

          However, I don’t necessarily believe that he would go into coalition with Labour/Greens either, although the thaw with the Greens has been noticable. Maybe Confidence and Supply?

          My pick is that at the end of the day, he may choose to sit on the cross benches, as he said he would before the 2011 election.

          No baubles? No, but does he really want the fast life anymore? Money is not an issue, from what I understand.

          This is obviously predicated on NZ First getting back in, which I believe they will.

          • Bearded Git 1.4.1.2.1
            22 February 2014 at 11:30 am

            If money is not an issue then it is the baubles, power, prestige of office he will want. Foreign Minister with a much stricter overseas land purchases regime and retirement kept at 65 and he will go with Lab/Gr.

    • Daveosaurus 1.5
      22 February 2014 at 4:29 pm

      “Immigrants Should “Fit In””
      … Pakeha immigrants excepted, apparently:
      “Maori have a “Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry”“

  2. Tinfoilhat 2
    22 February 2014 at 7:26 am

    Yes, you can tell it’s election year when Winston trots out this rubbish!

  3. CC 3
    22 February 2014 at 7:35 am

    Has Mr. Munter (othewise known as Simon Moutter), the CEO of Telecom, been hijacked by the PR flakes and re-branding trough feeders? How could one fall for the line that ‘Spark’, something to do with electricity, is more indicative of the company’s business than a reference to communication. Worse than that though is the email they sent out to long-suffering customers. Once again they proved their incompetence in that the link didn’t work (pretty basic business??). The final insult was the concluding sentence, ‘Of course, the one thing that never changes is we’re stoked you’re with us.’ The only stoking does not require a graphic description but the customer, as is usually the case with overblown re-brandings, is the receiver another PR stoking. Yes folks – see what a Munter can do when he lives in the fantasy world of corporate self-importance – $20m of customers money chucked around in the pursuit of being seen to do something to justify(??) an over-blown salary.

    • phillip ure 3.1
      22 February 2014 at 7:42 am

      ‘spark’ vs. ‘sky’…?

      ..seems an uneven match to me…

      ..telecom as sky-rocket..?..

      ..a brand-name that defines impermanence/transitory..?

      ..a ‘spark’..

      ..are they trying to tell us something..?

      ..phillip ure..

    • Tiger Mountain 3.2
      22 February 2014 at 8:15 am

      Years back Telecom tried to “go large” (in broadband speed) advertised with stereotyped male computer types roaming around in a van clutching oversized drinks in plastic cups, what truly went large was customer dissatisfaction and reimbursements for the actual leisurely pace of the product. Then there was the new mobile network advertised from floating shipping containers, again the new part was a new high in customer dissatisfaction with massive holes in coverage and outages. And then there was…

      Spark, what a fizzer. This is one part of national infrastructure that should be nationalised and the consultants sent packing.

      • tc 3.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 10:13 am

        ‘ Spark, what a fizzer. This is one part of national infrastructure that should be nationalised and the consultants sent packing.’

        Chorus is what needs nationalisation along with the southern cross cable access if that’s with telecom still, leave the bloated, self serving, masters of deception to go head to head with Vodafone etc and force proper separation. Telecom/chorus are effectively still the same systems with separate brands.

        It’s just nuts that over $1b of taxpayer funds is being used to build a network for private interests but that’s SOP with this gov’t

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 1:53 pm

          Chorus is what needs nationalisation along with the southern cross cable access if that’s with telecom still, leave the bloated, self serving, masters of deception to go head to head with Vodafone etc and force proper separation.

          Every bit of telecommunications network needs to be nationalised and brought in under a single administration. Spark, Vodafone and 2 Degrees would then just become re-sellers and it wouldn’t take long for the populace to realise that they’re just ticket clippers – if they haven’t done so already.

      • ianmac 3.2.2
        22 February 2014 at 10:20 am

        Last night on the Paul Henry Show Henry had an interview with the Spark man Jason Harris and was openly derisive at the whole idea of Spark. His questions were searching and the answers unconvincing. (I flicked to TV3 and stayed to watch the interview. Sorry.)
        http://www.3news.co.nz/Telecoms-new-name-Spark-ing-debate/tabid/1837/articleID/333180/Default.aspx

        • tc 3.2.2.1
          22 February 2014 at 12:01 pm

          New lipstick on the pig doesn’t resolve any of the issues that constraint NZ in terms of Internet etc which Telecom/Chorus still have NZ over a barrell on.

          Access to the web still a chorus/telecom controlled monopoly unless you’re on a satellite service.

          Structural separation was creating a new management structure/board/logo etc, scratch the surface nothing below has changed in fact it’s alot worse with the attrition of knowledgable worker bees at telecom under Moutter.

          If you are a telecom shareholder you should be demanding this $20m is invested into network services and technology, like getting their stressed coalface workers off IE8 which is end of life next month.

    • Rodel 3.3
      22 February 2014 at 5:08 pm

      SPARKS- In a rare insight Nisbett the cartoonist suggested Sparks should be spelled backwards.
      Think I might refer to it by that name.

  4. karol 4
    22 February 2014 at 7:53 am

    These days, many people can’t afford to die. And Paula Bennet is no help – more of a hindrance.

    What sort of society are we, that is failing our children, our young adults, and our elderly?

    • srylands 4.1
      22 February 2014 at 8:28 am

      We need progressive pricing of funeral services. Also a government owned undertaker to provide real competition. Maybe KiwiTangi?

      • Galeandra 4.1.1
        22 February 2014 at 8:37 am

        Empathy was always your strong suit.

      • Skinny 4.1.2
        22 February 2014 at 9:17 am

        There will be no need for that Shrillands. The State Super Market chain will have a fly buys type arrangement so it will end up free if you shop to you drop.

      • RedBaronCV 4.1.3
        22 February 2014 at 10:45 am

        And here’s me thinking that SSR would go for the totally privatised option of his own front yard.

    • Chooky 4.2
      22 February 2014 at 9:07 am

      @ karol

      Yes and Labour needs a very strong spokesperson to go up against Paula Bennet.!!!!( a brown face and I hate to say it …attractive looking ,former solo mother….she is strong, has ‘credibility’ and form…NACT is incredibly cunning in its placement of Spokespeople, unlike Labour which tends to be cronyist imo and quite abysmal)

      ….preferably Labour needs a spokesperson ….who can capture Media attention big time, with sound bites , acting flair….gravitas , PASSION, background experience of the people she/he is speaking for and be in a constituency where people are struggling….and preferably be of Maori or Polynesian extraction, simply because they are at the bottom of the economic heap and he /she requires their identification with her for them to vote Labour ( those at the bottom of the heap which NeoLib NACT has created and wants to continue creating…despite desperately trying to pretend otherwise, alienate and show Labour up… and capture the 800,000+ non voters)

      While Jacinda Adern knows her stuff and can speak well and finally it is good to hear speaking out publicly…imo she is not the right person to go head- to- head with Paula Bennett….she is too white middle class looking and refined……..( sorry Jacinda, i think you are best as spokeswoman on the ARTS, which is actually very important)

      If i was betting on the horses best suited to take on Paula Bennet… and to be Spokesperson for Labour ….i would go for Poto Williams( she has a Christchurch East constituencey of really struggling people and is articulate and intelligent), Louisa Wall ( on fighting form), Rina Tirikatene , Meka Whaaitirie

      • Disraeli Gladstone 4.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 9:12 am

        I’m actually quite sad that Ardern hasn’t really taken Finlayson to task over the Arts. But there’s a permanent fear that you can’t talk too loudly about the Arts because people think it’s a waste of money.

        If a politician could clearly explain the benefits of investing in that area, that would be such a good moment for New Zealand.

        • tc 4.2.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 12:11 pm

          Ardern is lazy, sat back whilst Kaye out campaigned her in akl central and has far too high an opinion of herself. Like so many of them they forget to keep is simple, snappy and consistent with some emotion in the delivery.

          Perception will play a massive role in the outcome this year and she projects as chooky states ‘… white middle class looking and refined…’

          DC has more than a few roles to refresh for the run in to show diversity and passion for the cause.

          As the nat’s will go for the same smile n wave at the funny man/ financial genius / local boy made good etc with the MSM as a backing band.

    • veutoviper 4.3
      22 February 2014 at 10:22 am

      Agreed, Karol.

      About 18 months ago, I had to deal with the aftermath of someone who had committed suicide, on behalf of his family overseas. The cost of cremation only (no funeral service etc in accordance with his wishes) was almost $3500 and that was through whanau in the funeral business. Almost all of that was the charges of the local council crematorium. The WINZ allowance could not be claimed as he had a few thousand in Kiwisaver funds, although he was totally broke cashwise at the time of his death.

      Funeral costs etc were briefly discussed on Open Mike on 22 Jan 2014 following a similar article in the Guardian re UK costs. At that time, by accident, I had come across articles etc re a review currently underway on NZ law relating to funerals, cremation etc by the Law Commission.

      Here is my comment in that discussion which provides links relating to this review

      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22012014/#comment-761064

      I have never got around to reading the issues paper in full, but the cynic in me thinks that it is unlikely the review will focus on the horrendous costs faced by ordinary NZers. The review is being led by – Dr Wayne Mapp. And who is the new CEO of the Undertakers of NZ Association? Katrina Shanks, ex National MP.

      On a related note, Public Trust used to provide a free will service, and reduced estate management fees.
      No longer. This went by the board about 2 to 3 years ago, and the Public Trust now charges similar fees to those of the private legal profession.

  5. phillip ure 5
    22 February 2014 at 8:02 am

    good to see my idea for nationalising the supermarket-duopoly is gaining some mainstream traction..

    ..tho’ de boni has missed the boat on the nuances/benefits of my partial-nationalisation take on the concept..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/dita-de-boni-we-need-govt-owned-supermarkets-ed-nice-to-see-a-mainstream-economics-reporter-going-for-my-nationalising-the-supermarkets-idea-eh/

    (excerpt:..)

    ..this control will make bringing in the new food-quality regulations a breeze..

    ..(instead of the long/drawn-out shit-fight we now face..

    ..as big-food and the duopoly join forces..

    ..against the rest of us..

    ..partial-nationalisation will cut them off at the knees..before they even get started..

    (cont..)

    phillip ure..

    • Chooky 5.1
      22 February 2014 at 10:20 am

      Yes interesting phillip ure

      yesterday I headed into town with every intention of hitting the New World ( NZ owned supermarket) …but missed the turnoff and i was in a hurry ….so I ended up at my usual Countdown( Aussie owned …the one Shane Jones as been going on about)..feeling guilty and out of sheer expediency

      …i was satisfied to note that it had a fraction of the usual customers! I would say it was down by about three quarters ….Instead of 4 or 5 checkout counters there were about 2 or 3……Aussie owners of Countdown must be getting worried ….and there were cut prices everywhere…i avoided the vege section

      • RedBaronCV 5.1.1
        22 February 2014 at 10:48 am

        Interesting and good to have an insight into this. Lose the guilt. Does anyone know how long it takes to establish a new shopping pattern so that at least some of the effect is permanent?

      • phillip ure 5.1.2
        22 February 2014 at 4:40 pm

        @ chooky..

        ..and during this (deserved) villification of the aussie half of this duopoly..

        ..let’s not forget they pay their workers above minimum-wage..

        ..whereas the kiwi half of the duopoly likes to ensure they well and truly screw-over every other nz’er who comes in contact with..

        ..the proof..?

        ..they only pay their workers minimum-wage..

        ..and of course..theses facts only strengthen the case for both of them to go on the partial-nationalisation chopping-block..

        ..our food-supply nightmare is perhaps the most glaring/impacting on us all each/every day example of the failures of neo-lib/let the market rule! politics..

        ..the down-the-line failures of rogernomics..

        ..phillip ure..

    • tricledrown 5.2
      22 February 2014 at 11:01 am

      We need to spark up competition the Commerce Commission needs to be pro active rather than reactive.
      Successive govts have paid lip service to anticompetative practices
      ie. Labour with challenge petrol stations and National with supermarkets.
      That is the debacle over competition from the wharehouse.
      Allowing the Duopoly to buy shares in the warehouse that should never have been allowed to happen.

      • tc 5.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 12:47 pm

        the comm comm needs to be rebuilt with some fangs and a 21st century arsenal, as the gnats have gutted it, not that it was needed as it’s effectively created duopoly/oligopoly in telecoms, building supplies, freight etc.

        There’s also been subtle creeping reduction on the fringes with warehouse snapping up leemings/torpedo7, woolies with ezibuy who would be a big loss to palmy if the DC was moved to Oz, it’s biggest market.

        • James Thrace 5.2.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 1:01 pm

          Comcom needs an overhaul of the Commerce Act is what it really needs. There are problems with s36 as it’s about “intent” to abuse market power, which requires crystal ball gazing.

          I recall reading something last year in the SST that s36 needs a complete overhaul and the focus needs to be taken away from the “intent” of the market power to establishing whether it WILL cause market power.

          It’s one of the most ridiculous sections, and is probably something that IAG knows will probably enable them to purchase Lumley Insurance, giving Insurance Australia Group (IAG) 70% of the residential insurance market in New Zealand. Comcom will just effectively rubber stamp their acquisition saying “no barriers to entry” or something equally inane.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3
      22 February 2014 at 2:50 pm

      Actually, that’s more my idea of full ownership although she’s saying that the government should own and operate a supermarket chain in competition with the presently existing supermarkets. She certainly isn’t suggesting that the government go to partial nationalisation.

      • phillip ure 5.3.1
        22 February 2014 at 3:43 pm

        i am celebrating the idea of the state doing what it is meant to do..

        ..and stopping these bastards from screwing us/their workers over..

        ..each and every day/way..

        ..and up until now..the corporate-media trouts have not dared to bite the ad-hand that feeds them so well..

        ..but how/what final-form that seachange takes..partial/full-nationalisation..competition..i don’t really care that much..

        ..(tho’ i do see my partial-nationalisation take on the problem as being the simplest/easiest to both do and sell to the electorate..

        ..setting up a whole new chain to price-compete them into submission just seems like a potential nightmare..on so many levels..to my mind/thinking..)

        ..just as long as those changes happen..

        ..the way things are now is both untenable and exploitive of this duopoly’s market-capture/dominance..

        ..and this must change..

        ..their ‘game’/scam is over..

        ..we won’t be going back to sleep over this one..

        ..i hope the duopoly realise this..

        ..but they probably don’t..yet..

        ..eh..?

        phillip ure..

        • Draco T Bastard 5.3.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 4:02 pm

          setting up a whole new chain to price-compete them into submission just seems like a potential nightmare..on so many levels..to my mind/thinking..

          Whereas I think that’s the best option as the government can make rational decisions such as free delivery on all purchases. The present cartel see delivery as just another way to make more profit whereas the government can use it to reduce resource use (fuel and time mostly but land also as an actual shop won’t be needed).

          Good prices with free delivery will absolutely kill the private system.

          • phillip ure 5.3.1.1.1
            22 February 2014 at 4:28 pm

            “..Good prices with free delivery will absolutely kill the private system…”

            y’see..i think that would be a mistake..to ‘kill the private system’..

            ..as you would also kill the efficiencies learnt/built into that ‘private-system’..

            ..and once you have killed off that ‘private system’ with yr free-delivery-ploy..(really..?..that’s all it will take..?..)

            ..do we just slump back into a (too-often) inefficient/corrupt state-controlled system..?

            ..no thanks..

            ..the other beauty of 51% partial-nationalisation is that no new infrastructures/supply-lines have to be created..you are just working with what is already there..

            ..and of course..51% state-ownership means 51% of the profits of that (former) duopoly flow back to the state coffers…

            ..for the people..it is win-win all around..

            ..whereas i wd forsee great popular opposition to either full-nationalisation..(for reasons already listed)

            ..or the potential perils of/from setting up a new state-run food retail-chain..

            ..phillip ure..

            • phillip ure 5.3.1.1.1.1
              22 February 2014 at 4:29 pm

              moderation..?

              phillip ure..

              • bad12 …
                22 February 2014 at 4:39 pm

                For the rest of the day???, blessed are we that are given reprieve from the task of scroll on by…

            • Draco T Bastard 5.3.1.1.1.2
              22 February 2014 at 6:37 pm

              as you would also kill the efficiencies learnt/built into that ‘private-system’..

              There aren’t any.

              do we just slump back into a (too-often) inefficient/corrupt state-controlled system..?

              How you prevent that is to make sure that everyone can see what’s happening. Also, what Shane Jones is talking about is the corruption that’s inside the private system. Corruption that hard to get rid of because of the secrecy that’s inherent in any private market system.

              and of course..51% state-ownership means 51% of the profits of that (former) duopoly flow back to the state coffers

              And with a fully state owned system there won’t be any dead weight loss of profit.

              • phillip ure …
                22 February 2014 at 7:06 pm

                i’m sorry..but to deny there are no profit-driven inbuilt/operating ‘efficiencies’ in the current private duopoly. business-model.

                ..does yrslf/yr arguments no favours..eh..?

                ..of course those efficiencies exist..everyone knows/can see that..

                ..the ‘corruption’ you mention/cite in yr point 2..would be ended/cleaned up..by the oversight inherent in partial-nationalisation/51% control..

                ..and using that 100% share of profit – as justification for the (extremely hard idea to sell to anyone) call for 100% nationalisation..isn’t enough..

                ..plus..retaining that 49% citizen-ownership..also ensures the retaining of those ‘efficiencies’ i address above..

                ..and of course..allowing nz super schemes etc to buy into that 49% citizen-share..

                ..could well see yr desire of close to 100% local profit-taking come to pass..

                ..and certainly well over the 51% designated state-control..

                ..what is not to love about all that..?

                ..phillip ure..

                • phillip ure …
                  22 February 2014 at 7:22 pm

                  and remember..that 51% current value would not be taken/’stolen’ from anyone..

                  ..they would receive a partial-payment now..and the rest to come out of future profits..

                  ..and when you add together the current profits made each year by the duopoly..

                  ..you will see that it will not take that long to pay off the rest of that purchase-price..

                  .and after that..the profits return to the communities it has been taken out of..

                  ..not into the pockets of foreign shareholders/local greedy elites..

                  ..you don’t want to leave any open sores ..when undertaking these much-needed reforms..

                  ..current owners/profiteers..(minimum-wage..?..really..?..)..may be a tad gruntled the gravey-train has come to a shuddering halt for them..

                  ..but tough..!

                  ..they will have no ‘we wuz robbed!’ case to make..

                  .phillip ure..

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  22 February 2014 at 7:38 pm

                  i’m sorry..but to deny there are no profit-driven inbuilt/operating ‘efficiencies’ in the current private duopoly. business-model.

                  You’re talking physical distribution in which case there’s pretty much only one way to do it. Pick it up at a (the farm/factory) and deliver it to b (the household). That means a combination of trucks, trains, aircraft and ships. The best way to determine the best combination would be by computer analysing and comparing the resources used in each mode.

                  No amount of profit will change that.

                  ..of course those efficiencies exist..everyone knows/can see that..

                  No, that’s just everybody believing the modern religion that they’ve had force fed to them through the MSM. Thankfully, people are starting to wake up to the BS.

                  what is not to love about all that..?

                  It’s still kowtowing to the capitalist delusion which makes it sociopathic and if you think that’s something to love then you have problems.

                  HINT: Believing in capitalism and the profit motive is the same as believing in perpetual motion machines.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 February 2014 at 7:54 pm

                    HINT: Believing in capitalism and the profit motive is the same as believing in perpetual motion machines.

                    Actually, it’s probably more like believing a group of uncontrolled psychopaths would spontaneously develop an efficient healthcare system.

                  • phillip ure …
                    22 February 2014 at 8:23 pm

                    good luck with trying to sell yr 100% model..

                    ..and..um..!..have you had to have much face-to-face-time with the employees of 100% state-owned fat/lazy/inefficient entities…?

                    ..i have no problem with competition that is ultimately benefiting the consumer..

                    ..my gripes are the exorbitant-profiteering/paying slave-wages..etc..

                    ..of the current model..

                    ..and i see 51% control/buy-out/partial-nationalisation..

                    ..as being the easiest/simplest solution to all those problems..

                    ..and of course the right can’t really argue against this idea..

                    ..as it just mirrors..if upturning at the same time..their arguments for partial-privatisation…

                    ..eh..?

                    ..in fact..if keeping to what they preached..as the compelling reasons for partial-privatisation..

                    ..they should support this model/idea..

                    ..that just leaves the 100% nationalisers..like yrslf..

                    ..phillip ure..

                  • srylands …
                    22 February 2014 at 8:26 pm

                    “Thankfully, people are starting to wake up to the BS.”

                    You have no evidence for such a statement. Efficient markets are predominating the world like never before. In New Zealand we have had successive governments that have led the world in promoting free trade. New Zealand has efficient institutions to promote capitalism. That is not changing any time soon.

                    The only people waking up are those in your tiny 1950s echo chamber.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 February 2014 at 8:42 pm

                      bullshit..!..srylands..

                      ..our cost of living in relation to wages is one of the highest in the world..

                      ..’efficient’ only for the profiteering bastards running them..

                      ..and this is the end-result of three decades yr neo-lib/rogernomics lies/spin..

                      ..this is the fact that is being ‘woken up’ to..

                      ..and that cost of living comparison also shows up the current govt lie/spin that our benefits/dole etc are some of the highest in oecd..

                      ..that extortionate prices paid for the basics of life..

                      ..make/show that as the sick/cynical joke it is..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • srylands …
                      22 February 2014 at 8:51 pm

                      “.our cost of living in relation to wages is one of the highest in the world..”

                      Can you show me the data?

                    • srylands …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:00 pm

                      “our cost of living in relation to wages is one of the highest in the world..”

                      Look you have a point. The problem is barriers to capitalism.

                      I can go on to the interweb and purchase tramping boots and books and just about everything else at 50% of NZ costs. I have no idea how any retail survives here. That fucking great Whitcouls on Lambon Quay is dead as dead.

                      If we impede the performance of markets we will be fucked.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:02 pm

                      i’ll eall you what..

                      ..you go first..

                      ..how about some facts to back yr claims made..?

                      ..y’know..!..how we ‘aren’t’ a low-wage/high cost of living country/economy..?

                      ..how about you start there..eh..?

                      ..phillip ure

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:08 pm

                      the ‘problem’ we are currently discussing is the lack of an ‘efficient’-market mechanism in our retail food market..

                      ..not the cost of tramping boots whatever..

                      ..so..therefor..

                      ..you should support my partial-nationalisation/51% state-control-model..

                      ..surely a free-marketeer such as yrslf could not support this profiteering duopoly..could you..?

                      ..it must be the antithesis of all you preach/believe..eh..?

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • srylands …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:20 pm

                      You want state owned supermarkets?

                      You do realise that when Labour is out of office and disintegrates until 2023, historians will write:

                      “The associated activists at The Standard wanted the Government to run supermarkets.”

                      I maintain that post 2020 we will see a stable coalition of post-Labour-break away, National and Act. There will be an opposition of Green/Communist NZ First/Nationalist,and Maori Radical.

                      If I am wrong, by 2030 will look something like a cross between PNG and Fiji.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:29 pm

                      As opposed to Somalia, which your policies would turn NZ into.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:32 pm

                      i want the state having 51% control..

                      ..do try to keep up..!

                      ..do pay attention..!

                      ..and yr evidence to support yr claims..?

                      ..you still got nothing..?

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • srylands …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:46 pm

                      Right, you want the New Zealand Government to take a 51% stake in some supermarket that sells food? Is that correct?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      22 February 2014 at 9:47 pm

                      You have no evidence for such a statement.

                      ~70% against asset sales.

                      Yeah, I think people are waking up to the neo-liberal BS about free-markets.

                    • srylands …
                      22 February 2014 at 10:02 pm

                      and so the euphoria of 15 September 2013 dissipates.

                      The next Labour PM is not in parliament now.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 February 2014 at 10:02 pm

                      no..not ‘a supermarket’..

                      ..the current duopoly that bleeds us on prices/profit-margins..

                      ..and pays slave wages..

                      ..that one…

                      ..do you have shares in them..?

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • Tracey …
                      24 February 2014 at 4:13 pm

                      decreasing tax take in NZ Sryland’s, strange in a country roaring forward.

  6. weka 6
    22 February 2014 at 8:41 am

    Some Saturday morning inspiration. Narrated by George Monbiot, ‘How Wolves Change Rivers’ is a four minute film on trophic cascades in nature. It shows why land management in NZ is about so much more than just our human perceptions of polluted water from dairy farms.

  7. tricledrown 7
    22 February 2014 at 9:27 am

    Ausryland
    Progressive like in enterprise.
    Stand over tactics by Cartels.a
    Graveyard for competition.

  8. tricledrown 8
    22 February 2014 at 10:03 am

    Ausrylands
    Australian monopolies take over undertakers.
    Plunderers from downunder

  9. RedBaronCV 9
    22 February 2014 at 10:27 am

    Looking at some of the arguments voiced by electricity companies around solar rooftop power.

    Clearly obvious that none of them do anything like housework or running a home. The refrain seems to be “nobody is home during the day to use the power”.

    Well blokes, let me introduce you to the modern washing machine/ dryer and dishwasher and older waterheater and nightstore technology.
    As we all know the waterheater and nightstore will use any daytime electricity to heat themselves ready for use that night and the next morning.

    Most modern diswashers and washers have time lapse on them so they are simply set to run during the day. Drying clothes can then be done the next day in dryer or on the line.

    Cooking, ovens have time lapse on them too. Put the food in that morning either heavily chilled or lightly frozen and set to cook slowly later in the day. Meal ready at home time.
    Evening use is then the lights.

    Good on the Greens

    • tricledrown 9.1
      22 February 2014 at 10:46 am

      Deep cycle batteries are part of most systems and provide electricity when the sun has gone.
      These companies are playing on peoples lack of knowledge.
      Low power 12 volt systems are another way the average person can save money through solar power.
      Running all lighting with led low power longlife bulbs.
      12 v Radios stereos and tvs are relatively cheap and easy to buy.
      You don’t need an electrician to install a simple system.
      Small wind mills using F&P smart drive motors can make large amounts of power.
      For peak usage you will still have to use mains but reducing the amount of power we buy will force prices down.

      • weka 9.1.1
        22 February 2014 at 2:56 pm

        Yep, 12V is the way to go for anyone wanting to seriously look at reducing consumption and working towards a sustainable future.

        The boating and motorhome sections at tradme are good places to look at what’s available and pricing (cheaper than the retailers).

        “12 v Radios stereos and tvs are relatively cheap and easy to buy.”

        Car stereos already run on 12V 😉 Laptops, cellphones, cameras, batteries etc can all be charged easily and more efficiently with 12V.

        However the big draws on household power are hot water, fridges, and stoves. Most people I know that go off grid have alternative fuels or systems for those.

    • bad12 9.2
      22 February 2014 at 11:16 am

      Off the solar panels on the roof—>through a smart meter/inverter into the outside lines—>sold at wholesale rates by Labour/Greens proposed single wholesaler—>reduction in power bill sent by Government computer to power supplier either as discount or monetary credit on account—> Government wholesaler by computer gives power supplier to household credit on future purchase of electricity of the same amount credited on the consumers bill,

      Seems a relatively simple system allowing for a battery free system which would save both on maintainence and set up costs,

      Battery solar is resource intensive when there is no need to be, using batteries in a solar system that is not totally off grid seems senseless and then begs the question what would be done with the mass of batteries once they had reached the end of their useful life,

      Which Children of the sub-continent would we be happy to pay 2 cents a day to break open these spent batteries poisoning themselves looking for re-usable metals???…

      • Pasupial 9.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 12:08 pm

        bad12

        Battery minimisation would be a good thing, as they can indeed be pretty toxic to dispose of. Their mass is a major limiting factor in electric vehicles, but fortunately houses don’t move around that much. I like the idea of hydrogen fuel cells as a power-sump for residential communities/ apartment blocks, but the tech is not really quite there yet.

        • bad12 9.2.1.1
          22 February 2014 at 1:32 pm

          Pasupial, yah, i have read, a while ago, where a solar farm had been set up which turned the generated power into heat—->stored the heat in i think salt filled towers—->then at night retrieved the heat turning it back into electricity,

          Think the experiment occurred in Greece and allowed for near 24 hours of solar power use, but, in a small country like ours which has a reaonably well wired grid and local systems why duplicate,

          As RL points out below the best electricity storage in the world exists now behind every Hydo dam in the country and it wouldn’t take much to integrate household solar into that system leaving the Hydro to take up peak daytime and nighttime loads,

          Once such a system has been in place for a while i would suggest that solar arrays should become part of the building code for new builds and then a good look at the cost/benefits of solar hot water need be had so that in the future that solar hot water may also become a standard part of any new housing,(along with Government sponsored retrofitting of older housing),

          Obviously such much needed changes in energy production and use would be much easier to bring about if the Government owned the whole system from dams to the grid to the local wiring network…

      • RedLogix 9.2.2
        22 February 2014 at 1:12 pm

        New Zealand is uniquely possessed of a whole bunch of enormous solar batteries – our huge hydro system.

        Run as a properly integrated engineering entity it is easy to use solar during the daytime and switch to hydro when the sun goes down.

        You can even use surplus renewables like solar and wind for pumped hydro storage.

        • weka 9.2.2.1
          22 February 2014 at 2:47 pm

          That works IF we reduce usage. Or are willing to dam more rivers/fill the landscape with windfarms.

          Neither of those options offers long term resiliency in the face of natural disasters and AGW/PO/GFC. Drought is already an issue with hydro.

          Bad raises a good point about the problems with batteries. However I think teh solution to that is to manage batteries within the recycle stream in NZ (rather than exporting them). We’ve done this before, and we should be looking at doing this again for other batteries anyway. Having batteries in a solar set up means we don’t have all our eggs in one basket.

          btw Bad, I appreciate your willingness to live without electricity in the event of the Big One as a way of preventing us having batteries that people overseas have to suffer with dealing with, but with all due respect, doing that in Welly is a bit different than doing it in places that have -10C frosts in the winter. This is of increasing concern given how many houses have electrity as their sole power source now ie no other means of heating or cooking or boiling water. We think of natural disasters as being something we need to plan for surviving on our own for 3 days until the cavalry arrives. Chch showed us this wasn’t true, and Chch wasn’t a big quake. It’s also not just about one off, might never happen in our lifetime events. It’s about how PO and AGW effects will coincide and impact on our ability to manage infrastructure. Try asking your local authorities how much of their infrastructure is dependent on imported parts for instance and then imagine a world where we are trying to fix things post-quake when we don’t have the finances or political clout internationally to vie for precious, depleting resources.

          It’s pretty sunny outside today, but the next 50+ years don’t look so bright and the more we can future proof our systems here the better. This is why despite my unease over the battery pollution and waste issues, I think the GP are right in having that as part of the scheme. I’m unclear whether they are proposing that people choose either battery or grid-tied only, but hope that people can choose both.

          The other thing that comes from using solar battery systems is that it makes householders acutely aware of how much power they use when and where and will act as an incentive to use less. This will happen with grid-tied also to an extent, but there is nothing like understanding that solar is a finite resource too.

          • Draco T Bastard 9.2.2.1.1
            22 February 2014 at 3:49 pm

            That works IF we reduce usage. Or are willing to dam more rivers/fill the landscape with windfarms.

            Nope, don’t need to do any of that either.

            Neither of those options offers long term resiliency in the face of natural disasters and AGW/PO/GFC.

            Actually, they do.

            However I think teh solution to that is to manage batteries within the recycle stream in NZ (rather than exporting them).

            We should be recycling batteries that we use but we don’t need to use batteries in our power grid.

            doing that in Welly is a bit different than doing it in places that have -10C frosts in the winter.

            The solution to that isn’t batteries but houses built to Passive House Standard. Houses that, even in the middle of winter, don’t need any artificial heating.

            Try asking your local authorities how much of their infrastructure is dependent on imported parts for instance and then imagine a world where we are trying to fix things post-quake when we don’t have the finances or political clout internationally to vie for precious, depleting resources.

            We don’t have to compete for international resources as we already have all the resources that we need right here in NZ. The problem is that the governments of both Labour and National have bought into the BS of free-trade which has made our society both unsustainable and lacking any resilience.

            It’s pretty sunny outside today, but the next 50+ years don’t look so bright and the more we can future proof our systems here the better.

            Then why are you saying that we need to build batteries? It’s just another layer of complexity that we don’t need.

            • weka 9.2.2.1.1.1
              22 February 2014 at 4:29 pm

              I agree generally about passive housing*, but we can’t replace the housing stock in NZ in the short or med term.

              *although I suspect you will find that many people living in the colder parts of NZ will want direct heating as well.

              Bad and I had a conversation the other day where he said he would rather do post-earthquake with no power for a time rather than use battery solar because of the social justice issues involved in disposal. I pointed out that that’s easier to say in Welly.

              “Then why are you saying that we need to build batteries? It’s just another layer of complexity that we don’t need.”

              Ideally we wouldn’t need it. But with things the way they are now, politically and in terms of the awareness and willingness of the population, stand alone solar gives us a window in the powerdown where we keep a certain standard of living while we figure out what happens next.

              You and I are in fundamental disagreement about the possible outcomes. I don’t believe that transition without massive powerdown is a given were we to do the right things from today, and I don’t believe we will do the right things anyway. The main difference here seems to be that you believe in tech solutions as inherently possible AND that we will actually do them. I look at the information about what is going on and what is coming and the main thing I see is uncertainty and unwillingness to change until we are forced to. We could perhaps describe the difference as between a sustainability view and a resiliency one. I am more focussed on resiliency now.

              Localised systems offer the best mid and long term resiliency. Doesn’t have to be solar battery systems in each household, but because we’re not even close to being able to have a decent conversation publically about this, solar battery systems are a not bad way to go in the meantime. I’m also mindful that the people who are most expert in this at a pragmatic level, who have been thinking about these issues and making the actual changes in their lives and living this life for a long time already, generally have chosen solar batteries as part of what they do. They’re generally aware of the limits of that, having lived with it.

              I think where one lives is a big part of this too. Geography, climate, population density, existing infrastructure are all part of the picture. I don’t think one size fits all.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                22 February 2014 at 4:46 pm

                The main difference here seems to be that you believe in tech solutions as inherently possible AND that we will actually do them.

                We will do them. It’s just a question of whether we’ll do them before we need them or after. In today’s system we’ll do them after which will cause a massive amount of unnecessary suffering. This is where the government can, and should, step in to make that necessary change before we need it.

                And I’m not even talking about new tech but what’s been known for 100 years or so.

            • weka 9.2.2.1.1.2
              22 February 2014 at 4:45 pm

              “Neither of those options offers long term resiliency in the face of natural disasters and AGW/PO/GFC.”

              “Actually, they do.”

              Ok, so maybe explain what would happen to the national supply (assuming grid tied solar but no batteries) in the following scenario:

              A big quake on the Alpine fault in July leaves the Clyde dam intact but takes out the Hawea Control gate (ie no storage in Lake Hawea). This coincides with a dry winter following a SI summer drought, so the Waitaki catchments and even Manapouri are low. There is increased demand in the grid because of increased numbers of bad winter storms that year (more cold, less solar panel generation).

              One of the big power generators up north is offline for maintenance. This normally happens in summer then the SI lakes are full, but because we’ve now had 4 really bad drought years in a row, the back up generation is getting really stretched.

              Post-quake the SI is left without power for a period of time (weeks or months). I assume this means that the infrastructure for getting the Clyde power generation up north is compromisedas well as distribution within the SI. The lack of power seriously hampers reconstruction along the divide (think roads and bridges being out for long periods of time) including work on the grid infrastructure.

              And just for fun, let’s say we have National govt in power, and Gerry Brownlee is still around.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                22 February 2014 at 4:59 pm

                There are some extreme conditions that can’t be planned for and that would be one of them.

                That said, if every house had a decent PV installation then the local grid would still have power even if it is only during the day. But considering that we would also have wind power which comes in from a different feed to the hydro-stations the local grid would probably also have power during the night. Any excess from solar and wind would be used to pump water back up into the damns as well.

                It’s not a one size fits all situation. It’s about having enough diversity in the power grid across the country so that extreme scenarios can be managed effectively. Yes, there would be some disruption but I don’t think it would be as bad as you think.

                Oh, and the lack of power in the grid won’t hamper reconstruction due to portable generators run on bio-fuel.

          • bad12 9.2.2.1.2
            22 February 2014 at 3:57 pm

            Weka, ”Christchurch wasn’t a big earthquake”—really???, try telling that to the people of Christchurch…

            Solar is a finite resource too—again really???,perhaps you would care to explain in which context you see solar as a finite resource…

            • weka 9.2.2.1.2.1
              22 February 2014 at 4:19 pm

              I’m kind of surprised I have to explain this to someone living in Wellington, but NZ is capable of far bigger earthquake disasters than what happened in Chch. Chch was more than bad enough, and we haven’t dealt that well with it. A big quake on the Alpine fault that shuts down Wellington? Or takes out the power supply to the South Island in the middle of a hard winter? We were lucky with Chch that it was in Feb not July. How would we deal with the Big One?

              “Solar is a finite resource too—again really???,perhaps you would care to explain in which context you see solar as a finite resource…”

              I suppose if we want to wait for the sun to replace our stock of fossil fuels, then yeah, techinically, we can call it infinite (until the sun explodes). But in human timeframes, with the population we have now, solar for electricity is dependent on other things than solar radiation, and those things are finite. So solar power (which is the context I made the statement in) is a finite resource. The only way to get out of that is to go passive solar, but even much of that tech is dependent on finite resources unless we lower our standard of living hugely.

              It helps to think about things as being interconnected. When we talk about ‘renewables’ we simply mean that in an isolated economic sense and an abstract physics sense. In physical reality that we all live in, there is really no such thing. If the population was lower we might have been able to set up renewable forestry for power (and carbon neutral), but again, at the population we have now, it’s all dependend on finite resources (fossil fuels, metals, industrial society). You can’t build a solar panel without a factory, and none of the factories are being built, maintained and run on solar. They’re all using fossil fuels and limited supplies of metals. That’s not even getting the plastics involved.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                22 February 2014 at 4:26 pm

                What we’re left with is knowledge. We won’t be going back to the stone age because we know about electricity as well as how to make bricks, but business as usual is over.

                • weka …
                  22 February 2014 at 4:55 pm

                  Yep. I actually find the idea of how to use our knowledge within the powerdown pretty interesting and exciting. I think human capacity for innovation will excel, given the right conditions.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    22 February 2014 at 5:08 pm

                    It already has. Most of the solutions we’ll rely on have already been invented, apart from how to defend against stupidity.

              • bad12 …
                22 February 2014 at 4:34 pm

                Yeah sure our geology is capable of bigger earthquakes than those that totaled Christchurch, but, i doubt you will be on this earth when the next city totaling one occurs,

                Myself i think your trying to over-intellectualize the whole energy thing and i havn’t really got the energy on a Saturday afternoon to get into one of those ‘dancing on the head of a pin debates’,

                Hell if i was keen to engage i would start with your ”limited supply of metals”, probably starting the dance with a Ha-ha-ha, only limited on planet weka…

                • weka …
                  22 February 2014 at 4:53 pm

                  It’s not overintellectualising. It’s systems thinking and seeing everything as interrelated. If you don’t understand the relationships between metal extraction, metal prices and the global economy, as it is today, I probably can’t explain anything about future scenarios. Beyond that, it’s about what paradigm we think in. If we had understood the fundamental limited nature of, well, nature, 100 years ago we wouldn’t be in this incredibly fucked up situation now. We would have had some chance of creating actual sustainable societies with a pretty decent standard of living.

                  “Yeah sure our geology is capable of bigger earthquakes than those that totaled Christchurch, but, i doubt you will be on this earth when the next city totaling one occurs,”

                  by all means doubt away. I probably would if I lived in Welly too. Unfortunately, I’ve been listening to people who are actual experts in geology and earthquakes.

                  There is a case to be made for simply ignoring the earthquake potential and sucking it up when it happens. But if we are going to the trouble of thinking about how to manage resources then future proofing is a natural enough part of that.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    22 February 2014 at 5:17 pm

                    Yep. Relentless destructive weather conditions magnified by large earthquake would be pretty negligent.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.2.1.2.2
              22 February 2014 at 5:32 pm

              Of course solar is a finite resource. 340W/m² multiplied by percentage of planetary surface available divided by external considerations cf: Weka’s comment.

    • tc 9.3
      22 February 2014 at 12:58 pm

      Ah the voice of self interest.

      Germany will be turning off about 25% of it’s peak demand gas fuelled generation and Oz reckons no new power plants needed for about 15-20 years thanks to wind/solar capacity encouraged by Govt rebates and schemes over the past years.

      We have wind, sun and water in abundance, our power prices are there to sustain the packages of the Binns/Hefferndens etc and duplication of roles/systems across generation, distribution, retail.

      Next they’ll be saying home solar power put back into the grid will break it, watch out for that BS.

    • flip 9.4
      22 February 2014 at 4:07 pm

      @RedBaronCV

      Something I have not read anywhere is that most of the demand is in Auckland/North Island and most generation in the South Island.

      Put in a whole lot of solar in Auckland and you reduce the losses in the grid shipping all that electricity to Auckland/North Island.

      It is not like power consumption does not happen during the day as industry uses lots.

      I would not trust power companies to offer any unbiased opinions on this. It is not in their interests to see a lot of solar generation. They’ll lose a chunk of profits as they will not be the only suppliers.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.4.1
        22 February 2014 at 5:04 pm

        They’ll lose a chunk of profits as they will not be the only suppliers.

        Yep, competition doing the only thing it can do – lowering profits.

  10. tricledrown 10
    22 February 2014 at 11:55 am

    Yes agreed on 12v system it would still need a battery .
    Another option is to use your electric car as storage.

  11. Lumen 11
    22 February 2014 at 12:05 pm

    It seems that Palantir has been astrosurfing ..

    This election could be interesting – with Dotcom’s involvement.

    Quote follows ..

    Some of the documents taken by Anonymous show HBGary Federal was working on behalf of Bank of America to respond to Wikileaks’ planned release of the bank’s internal documents.[4][23] “Potential proactive tactics against WikiLeaks include feeding the fuel between the feuding groups, disinformation, creating messages around actions to sabotage or discredit the opposing organization, and submitting fake documents to WikiLeaks and then calling out the error.”[24]

    Emails indicate Palantir Technologies, Berico Technologies, and the law firm Hunton & Williams (recommended to Bank of America by the US Justice Department)[15] all cooperated on the project.[24] Other e-mails appear to show the U.S. Chamber of Commerce contracted the firms to spy on and discredit unions and liberal groups.[25][26]

    Source

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary

  12. greywarbler 12
    22 February 2014 at 12:22 pm

    On Radionz they are just doing a piece apparently on energy and food for the world and so on.
    Someone has just made reference to New Yorkers defecating a huge amount of energy producing faeces a day, something like 900 tonnes or… and that could produce $90 million worth of electricity. An idea!

    If it could have electricity extracted, part of which would go into drying the stuff, mixing with growing medium from rubbish dumps, and if it could then be an earth friendly product that would act both as mulch and growing medium on denatured soils.

    If, that great word full of promise, if that could be developed, that would be a huge boost to the planet that might offset the Iraqi oil wells burning for almost a year back those decades,.

  13. greywarbler 13
    22 February 2014 at 1:04 pm

    lprent
    The numbering seems to be disappearing.

    Can key words, letters from commenters names go to main archive, so get gw, grey, warbler, warbly to greywarbler?

  14. Chooky 14
    22 February 2014 at 2:36 pm

    health benefits of Cayenne Pepper ?….( for smokers, those with dickey hearts and vascular issues, those with gout, those with stomach issues, those with obesity problems)

    http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/benefits-of-cayenne-pepper/

  15. One Anonymous Bloke 15
    22 February 2014 at 3:28 pm

    I really struggle with this. I didn’t pay much attention to Charlotte Dawson when she was alive, but one thing I do remember is the massive amount of hate speech directed against her.

    It isn’t enough to “hope the tr*lls are feeling bad about themselves today.” Hate speech is hate speech.

    It pushes my authoritarian buttons. Can we address this merely by tackling inequality?

  16. Paul 16
    22 February 2014 at 3:46 pm

    It would be good it the Herald gave other protests similar prominence.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11208032

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1
      22 February 2014 at 4:00 pm

      The Panty Sniffers.
      All three hundred of them.
      Revolution fail.

    • bad12 16.2
      22 February 2014 at 4:21 pm

      i had to have a giggle at the description of what occurred around the person that heckled the Len ‘love-in’, sounds like those involved were so ‘into’ democracy and free speech that they were prepared to give said heckler a kicking forcing the plods to step in…

      • Penny Bright 16.2.1
        22 February 2014 at 9:03 pm

        I was there.

        “they were prepared to give said heckler a kicking forcing the plods to step in…”

        That is simply not true.

        Penny Bright

  17. captain hook 17
    22 February 2014 at 6:30 pm

    I see wail boils rent a lynch mob in action again today.
    Its about time the cops dispersed them with batons.

    • Bill 17.1
      22 February 2014 at 6:45 pm

      You want a cop to hit him/her self on the coupon with a baton?!!!

      (disclaimer – not all cops are fucktards)

  18. Penny Bright 18
    22 February 2014 at 8:53 pm

    (Interesting – this comment is ‘awaiting moderation’ on that bastion of ‘free speech’ – Kiwiblog )

    We are awaiting a decision from the Solicitor-General by 28 February 2014, as to whether or not leave will be granted for a private prosecution against Auckland Mayor Len Brown for alleged bribery and corruption.

    For those who want to make light of the efforts of private prosecutor Graham McCready – how many ever expected John Banks to ever face trial for alleged electoral fraud, and the Solicitor-General to take over the prosecution?

    Come on – provide EVIDENCE that proves any of you predicted this historic precedent would ever happen!

    One of the considerations that the Solicitor-General will be taking into account, before granting leave, is ‘public interest’.

    In my view – public FUSS equals ‘public interest’.

    -Here is some media coverage of our LEN BROWN – STAND DOWN march held today, Saturday 22 February 2014:

    LET YOUR BANNERS DO THE TALKING!

    (Lots more folk are now getting the message about ‘corrupt corporate cronyism – of the casino variety’ – and Auckland Mayor Len Brown’s alleged criminal complicity – although this message has NOT been covered (yet) by mainstream media ……

    TV3 NEWS

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Anti-Len-Brown-march-in-Auckland/tabid/1607/articleID/333207/Default.aspx

    TVNZ NEWS

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/dozens-support-calls-len-brown-stand-down-5846457

    RADIO NZ

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/236974/marchers-call-for-brown-to-step-down

    ZB TALKBACK

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbnat/610094480-campaigners-marching-for-len-brown-s-resignation

    RADIO LIVE

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/News.aspx

    PRIME NEWS??

    PS: Want to describe me as ‘right-wing’?

    ANYBODY?

    If so – I suggest you have a look at the following websites?

    www,dodgyjohnhasgone.com
    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz
    http://www.stopthesupercity.org.nz
    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
    http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz

    (I use the electoral process to help make a fuss about the issues – it’s proven to be quite effective?
    Polled fourth with nearly 12,000 votes on an ‘in-your-face anti-corporate corruption’ platform ….

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ANTI-CORRUPTION-WHITE-COLLAR-CRIME-CORPORATE-WELFARE-ACTION-PLAN-Ak-Mayoral-campaign-19-July-2013-2.pdf

    That was what was so interesting about today’s march, the coalition of political aliens from arguably different political galaxies, working together in common cause, calling for Auckland Mayor, Len Brown to STAND DOWN.

    PPS: My formal complaint to Auckland Police against (former) Auckland Council CEO Doug McKay for alleged ‘contravention of statute’ (over failing to follow the due process outlined in the Auckland Council ‘Code of Conduct’ s.8 ‘Compliance’ – and effectively making up his own process and picking his own people to write the Ernst and Young Report) is currently being assessed by an Inspector attached to Auckland CIB.

    (Don’t believe a word I say – read it for yourself –

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/SiteCollectionDocuments/aboutcouncil/governingbody/codeofconductelectedmembers.pdf

    s. 8 – ‘Compliance’.

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation campaigner’

    [Dear Penny. I see you have sent an email out suggesting that the Standard has effectively censored your comment. It was picked up by Akismet and someone needs to release it. It is Saturday night and authors’ attentions are probably on other things. There has been no decision made to censor your comment. It would help if your comments were shorter and did not have as many links, that way they would probably go straight through – MS]

    • Penny Bright 18.1
      22 February 2014 at 11:21 pm

      Sorry about that.

      Might have been the same reason why I got the same ‘awaiting moderation’ response on Kiwiblog.

      Given the amount of crap I’ve been copping lately on this matter – my ‘FEISTY’ button has been jammed on FULL.

      If there is one thing I don’t like – it’s not getting my say and having the right of reply when folks are saying things about me.

      Some of my comments can be longer and have more links – because I like to back up what I am saying with supporting evidence.

      Cheers!

      Penny Bright

  20. Penny Bright 20
    22 February 2014 at 11:49 pm

    FYI

    PENNY BRIGHT says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    FEBRUARY 22, 2014 AT 11:46 PM

    TESTING…..

    Am I able to make comments on your blog Martyn Bradbury – to reply to comments you make about me – or have you still banned me because you didn’t agree that I should stand against John Minto from Mana (at a time you were being paid as a consultant for Mana?)

    Penny Bright

    See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/22/ive-seen-better-attended-chem-trail-protests-than-this-down-with-len-brown-march/#comment-192250

  21. Tim 21
    24 February 2014 at 4:08 pm

    ….ANYONE :
    Did I hear correctly? (I was busy avoiding Mora and guests taking their egos for a walk under the pretense of coming across as sages, critical thinkers and people who think a mere audience should take them seriously as of their right) …….
    RNZ news at 4pm:
    The GCSB has refuse to tell a parliamentary committee whether or not they get any sort of funding from elsewhere.

    • Tracey 21.1
      24 February 2014 at 4:11 pm

      yes it’s true and there is a whole thread about it on this site.

      • Tim 21.1.1
        24 February 2014 at 4:51 pm

        Will check later …. ankle biter biting. :p
        But unbelievable arrogance and a wakeup call to sheeple on just how far things have become! UNBELIEVABLE!