Open mike 31/01/2024

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1. Subliminal 1

   31 January 2024 at 8:06 am

   UNRWA is mandated by the UN to serve Palestinian refugees whom are uniquely defined by the UN. Under UNRWA, a Palestinian refugee is defined as any person whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948 and lost both home and livelihood through the 1948 conflict including descendents of fathers. From this we get the 6 million Palestinians that have right of return. These statements by the UN, enshrined in UNWRA are not only their survival safety net but also their last tenuous link to their land. It is their equivalent to our Te Tiriti and it is ultimately the destruction of this that Israel desires.

   We and all the settler colonial societies of the West are engaged in supporting the destruction of another indigenous people and agency that safeguards their rights to their land.

   Where is China on this. Why do they not fund the UNRWA? They could do it in their sleep. This is a continually unfolding tradgedy and if the UNRWA is lost it will add to the desperation of this genocide
   • David 1.1

     31 January 2024 at 8:36 am

     Not only China.

     "Chris Gunness, a former UNRWA spokesman, said the UN agency has weeks only before it runs out of money for its crucial aid work to save Palestinian lives in Gaza. More than 26,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its offensive on October 7.

     “My message to the Arab world, particularly to the Gulf, is where are you? Because they’re making billions each day on oil revenues. A tiny fraction of those oil revenues would see UNRWA’s financial problems disappear overnight. This unconscionable gap inflicted by these Western countries would be filled very quickly,” Gunness told Al Jazeera.

     “Some of the most desperate people in the Middle East are now facing starvation, they’re facing famine, and the Arab states need to step up to the plate.”"

     Which countries have cut funding to UNRWA, and why? | News | Al Jazeera
     • Subliminal 1.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 8:59 am

       Absolutely and good to see pressure being applied to all those previously shirking. If the US could manage $300M even with such a strong Israel lobby then it should be an easy thing for the rest of the world to replace.
       • David 1.1.1.1

         31 January 2024 at 9:36 am

         Perhaps take it out of the UN mandate? I mean between raping children in the Congo (UN peacekeepers in Congo hold record for rape, sex abuse | AP News) and bringing Cholera to Haiti (UN admits for first time that peacekeepers brought cholera to Haiti | Global health | The Guardian), maybe there are other agencies /NGO's that have more credibility?
         • Res Publica 1.1.1.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 11:51 am

           The UN is a deeply flawed institution by design. And yeah, it fails to live up to a bunch of it's aspirations.

           That said, even a deeply flawed multilateral institution dedicated to peace and the rule of international law is better than nothing.
           • David 1.1.1.1.1.1

             31 January 2024 at 12:54 pm

             Of course. The work has to be done, but is the UN, and UNRWA specifically, the best vehicle for that now, or is it damaged beyond repair?
     • Muttonbird 1.1.2

       31 January 2024 at 1:15 pm

       I don't think the Arab world particularly wants to fund, beyond what they already do, an agency which exists because of Israel's illegal occupation.

       UNRWA is a mechanism under which Israel is allowed to continue its supremacist program of ethnocide (and now genocide).

       Those countries who created Israel, and support it carrying out its ethnic cleansing manifesto are the ones who are duty bound to most fund UNRWA which is tasked with picking up the pieces of such a flawed apartheid state.

       The Arab world would like to see a permanent resolution, a Palestinian state, and fully funding the agency which is a function of the status quo runs counter to that. They’d basically be endorsing and subsidising US and Israeli hegemony.
       • David 1.1.2.1

         31 January 2024 at 4:09 pm

         There are some in the Arab world for whom a permanent solution is the end of the Israeli nation. The people of Gaza elected a government with those aims. Doctrine of Hamas | Wilson Center

         There are others in the Arab world who appear to view the Palestinian cause with, at best, indifference, and at times prefer Israel. Here's one example:

         "The Palestinian cause is no longer an Arab concern. We fund the Palestinians, and they respond by cursing us and behaving badly. The Arabs and Muslims no longer applaud the Palestinians. We should not be ashamed to establish relations with Israel."

         Ahmad al-Jaralah (quoted at Why Arabs Hate Palestinians :: Gatestone Institute

         I see no solution to this conflict while the hatred and barbarism continues on both sides.
         • Muttonbird 1.1.2.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 8:56 pm

           I hope you don't mind if I did a very small amount of research.

           In the Wilson Centre article, at the start of the third paragraph I read this and felt I didn't need to go further:

           Hamas was founded—in the early days of the first Intifada uprising—amid growing Palestinian fury over the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

           And, the Gatestone Institute is an anti-muslim right wing think tank founded by wealthy American, and Israeli supremacist, Nina Rosenwald:

           Her family fund has given financial support to two institutions located in settlements on the West Bank: the Beit El yeshiva, which counsels its students to defy government orders to evacuate illegal outposts, and Ariel University. It also donates to the Central Fund of Israel, a New-York-based NGO which reportedly serves as a major vehicle for the transfer of American donations to "hard-core" settlements on the West Bank.
           • David 1.1.2.1.1.1

             31 January 2024 at 9:43 pm

             "In the Wilson Centre article, at the start of the third paragraph I read this and felt I didn't need to go further:"

             Well you should have, because my comment was about the people of Gaza electing Hamas to government. Forming a terrorist organisation is one thing, electing it as your government is another thing all together. (BTW, the formation of Hamas is debatable. For example, "Hasan and Sayedahmed (2018) cite multiple sources that say that Hamas was founded in the late 1970s as a religious counterweight to the secular Fatah. " History of Hamas – Wikipedia

             "is an anti-muslim right wing think tank founded by"

             You must have missed the fact that Gatestone was a source for the quote from Ahmad al-Jaralah, the Kuwaiti journalist. It does pay to read on.
             • Muttonbird …

               31 January 2024 at 10:19 pm

               Since you are apparently keen on a good read:

               In the 1940s, long before Palestinian resistance groups like Hamas picked up arms against the Israeli occupation, a plethora of Jewish militias were bombing and shooting dead British officials and Palestinian Arabs.

               The Jewish groups including Haganah to Irgun, and the Stern Gang (Lehi) actively used terrorism against the British mandate over Palestine and to create fear among the Arab citizens.

               https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-lookback-at-the-zionist-terrorism-that-led-to-israels-creation-15767166

               In Western popular discourse the term terrorism has long been associated with the Middle East, but particularly with the activities of Palestinian Arab groups, which have dominated the news for the past forty years. But sixty years ago, it was the actions of Jewish terrorists in Palestine that grabbed headlines around the world. Although this campaign is not as well-known today, it raises an important question: is the modern Middle East conflict, in which terrorism plays a prominent role, itself a product of a terrorist campaign?

               https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/10538/11136

               And, just three generations ago, does this sound familiar?
               • SPC …

                 31 January 2024 at 10:33 pm

                 It's never been one sided.

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
                 • David …

                   31 January 2024 at 10:42 pm

                   Exactly.
               • David …

                 31 January 2024 at 10:37 pm

                 "How strange that this is never mentioned in the Israel-Palestine rhetoric, nor the fact that over half a million Jews had legally immigrated at the invitation of Palestinian mayors of an array of cities, and also joining with that existing massive Jewish population in the Land. These Jews all 100% purchased their homes. They did not steal one centimeter of land, nor houses. This was all before 1948. So why had der Grossmufti von Jerusalem – Hajj “Amin” Al-Husseini – and his terrorist gangs been massacring Jews for three decades prior to that? It certainly wasn’t because of land theft. It sure wasn’t about “freedom fighting.” It was about hatred of the Jewish People."

                 Palestinian pogroms before 1948 prove that attacking Jews was never about Israel | Micah Ben David Naziri | The Blogs (timesofisrael.com)

                 Arab violence against Jews is often alleged to have begun with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 or as a result of Israel’s capture in 1967 of territories occupied by Jordan. But even before the Mandate for Palestine was assigned to Great Britain by the Allies at the San Remo Conference (April 1920) and endorsed by the League of Nations (July 1922), Palestinian Arabs were carrying out organized attacks against Jewish communities in Palestine. Systematic violence began in early 1920 with murderous assaults by groups of local Arabs against settlements in the north and by Muslim pilgrims against Jerusalem’s Jews. Again in 1921, Arab rioters attacked Jews in Jaffa and its environs.

                 Anti-Jewish Violence in Pre-State Palestine/1929 Massacres | CAMERA

                 You see muttonbird, this is never simple.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   31 January 2024 at 11:10 pm

                   The Times of Israel article seemed a bit unhinged but that is understandable just days after the Hamas mission. But then I looked at his website, yikes!

                   Just so everyone knows, CAMERA is:

                   The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America is an American non-profit pro-Israel media-monitoring, research and membership organisation.

                   Critics of CAMERA claim that it is an ‘extreme Israel advocacy group’, aligned with hawkish rightwing viewpoints; that it pays stipended fellows to write anti-Palestinian articles; and that it employs smear and intimidation tactics, routinely targeting media and journalists critical of Israel and pro-Palestinian activists on campuses.
                   • David …

                     31 January 2024 at 11:32 pm

                     “Critics of CAMERA” will make all sorts of claims, as have you. And so we can bounce around questioning each others sources, but in the end Israeli’s are murdering Palestinians and Palestinians are murdering Israeli’s. Your views are too entrenched to be helpful.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     31 January 2024 at 11:34 pm

                     Only one people are occupying the other.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               31 January 2024 at 10:53 pm

               Forming a terrorist organisation is one thing, electing it as your government is another thing all together.

               Either a majority of Gazan voters were/are supporters of a terrorist organisation, or they were/are desperate (god know why) – possibly both.

               https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/

               Unlike the IDF, Hamas (and their supporters?) have little interest in protecting the civilian population of Gaza. That IDF munitions have killed tens of thousands of Gazans in under 4 months becomes less problematic when Gazans are characterised as supporters of terrorism, although there's still the inconvenient truth of 10,000 dead children to consider.
               History will be the judge of which 'side' behaved most monsterously.

               Know their names
               Palestinian children killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

               The Gaza Strip is a graveyard for thousands of children, the United Nations has said. Since October 7, Israeli attacks have killed at least 10,000 children, according to Palestinian officials. That is one Palestinian child killed every 15 minutes, or about one out of every 100 children in the Gaza Strip.

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Death_toll

               It’s a time for choosing [23 Oct 2023]
               The humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in Gaza requires each of us to make a choice.
               Which leads me, finally, to the choice the mostly unrepentant keyboard cavalry who are happily saddling up once more – in derivative columns and hyperbolic appearances on TV – made to side with their home team’s, by now, familiar mantra: Kill first, think later.
               • David …

                 31 January 2024 at 11:55 pm

                 Unlike the IDF, Hamas (and their supporters?) have little interest in protecting the civilian population of Gaza.

                 It’s even worse than that. Hamas put civilians in harms way by design.

                 That IDF munitions have killed tens of thousands of Gazans in under 4 months becomes less problematic when Gazans are characterised as supporters of terrorism,

                 Not really. They had one election and then, well “Hamas generally governs in an authoritarian manner, actively suppressing criticism of its rule.” https://freedomhouse.org/country/gaza-strip/freedom-world/2023

                 Finally:

                 https://apnews.com/article/sexual-assault-hamas-oct-7-attack-rape-bb06b950bb6794affb8d468cd283bc51

                 Will we ever know their names?
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   1 February 2024 at 12:09 am

                   Will we ever know their names?

                   Who knows – meantime, why not work with the names we do know?
                   “An atrocities-filled rampage” vs colateral damage of 10,000 dead children, and counting.
                   • David …

                     1 February 2024 at 7:20 am

                     The great tragedy is we don’t know their names either.
   • Corey 1.2

     31 January 2024 at 10:47 am

     Agreed! Absolutely shocking that the rich oil nations are not funding unrwa or stepping into fill the gap.
     • Res Publica 1.2.1

       31 January 2024 at 11:48 am

       But why would they, though?

       Ignore their attempts at reputation laundering and ongoing tease about some kind of rapprochement with Israel (on their terms and only if daddy US gives them a big enough bribe), the oil states in the Middle East are not nice people pursuing not nice foreign policy objectives.

       They're either dour religious fanatics (Saudi) playing a long game against other dour religious fanatics (Iran), or cynical dictators/absolute monarchs that rely on American military aid for security on one hand, and ongoing western/UN involvement in the region as a rallying cry to keep a lid on domestic discontent.

       Participating in the UN relief effort would lead to these states either a) being seen as western stooges or b) actually helping relieve a situation that is so much to their advantage.

       Better to stay outside the tent and throw money at the occasional hospital or university to look generous and keep the Palestinians onside. All while the Israelis blunder around committing war crimes and bleeding support in the West.

       Realpolitik is a bitch.
   • SPC 1.3

     31 January 2024 at 5:58 pm

     The Balfour Declaration recognised the obvious rights of those in Palestine, most not Jews – while the UK wanted to facilitate a Jewish homeland and enable migration, they did not deny there was a local population that was Arab with their own rights.

     For mine whatever one thinks of the UN decision in 1947 to have two states (given the Arabs, neither local nor regional, consented to a separate Jewish state), there was first a UK (who received the League of Nations Palestine mandate) and then subsequent UN acceptance of the rights of the Arab population.

     Thus it is reasonable to see it as their Treaty guarantee, despite a Jewish homeland for settlement state. The UN sees it in that light with it being their responsibility rather than that of the UK.

     Thus the UNRWA was established after the 1948 war and the departure of and denial of return of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

     As per the refugees and the UNRWA role, one can quibble about how many of the 6 million or so are now "refugees".

     2 million have citizenship in Jordan, etc as a group like UN Watch would note

     https://unwatch.org/item-7/claim/claim-5-palestinian-refugees-have-a-right-of-return/

     Whatever the number now, one can then note that one of Israel's prime goals includes ending UNRWA and have the other Arab states follow the example of Jordan.

     Which raises the question are those nations cutting funding to UNRWA proposing taking in the Palestinian refugees and if not what are they going to do next?

     What is going on now is akin to the settler majority re-writing the principles of the Treaty (one assimilated people etc) and telling Maori to go live in Oz, if they do not like it.
     • David 1.3.1

       31 January 2024 at 10:47 pm

       A really balanced and thought provoking post, SPC.
2. observer 2

   31 January 2024 at 9:15 am

   Another day, another "clarification". This time it's Mark Mitchell.

   PM says Police Minister Mark Mitchell was wrong on coalition commitment backdown – NZ Herald

   The government's best weeks were Christmas/New Year, when politics was on holiday. The public happily ignored them.

   But now Parliament is back and political questions are back, and the simple task of saying "our policy is A not B" is too challenging for them.

   From that link: “Discussions occurred between the coalition parties’ chiefs of staff overnight and reaffirmed the original deadline.”

   So they had to have “discussions” to clarify what they already wrote down in the coalition document!
   • Anne 2.1

     31 January 2024 at 10:32 am

     Always good to be reminded of how Mitchell entered parliament in the first place:

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/disclosures-disgust-defeated-candidate/L2WCON5XJLS6VL4VYKBP7SHV44/

     “Mr Robinson was one of five hopefuls for the Rodney selection in 2011, eventually won by Mark Mitchell, who went on to become MP.

     Dirty Politics, based on emails stolen from Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater, appears to show Mr Slater collaborating with political strategist Simon Lusk to push for Mr Mitchell.

     Emails between Mr Slater and Mr Lusk appear to show they wanted him to win, and discussed payments from him; Mr Mitchell has emphatically denied ever paying either of them.”

     After destroying Robinson's reputation, Cameron Slater and co. then went on to destroy the reputations of the other candidates. And soon there was only their preferred candidate left. But out intrepid new Police minister didn’t know about any of it. 🙄

     So that is the level of propriety (or the lack of it) now considered acceptable for a police minister.
     • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 11:10 am

       Well done Anne to remind us of the calibre of some of these Govt. Ministers. “I know nothink…” yeah right…

       Mrs “give it back double” Collins did not come out of “Dirty politics” well either and she is…wait, what… Attorney-General, Minister of Defence, Minister for Digitising Government, Minister Responsible for the GCSB, Minister Responsible for the NZSIS, Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology, and Minister for Space!
       • Anne 2.1.1.1

         31 January 2024 at 11:36 am

         Well, there is always the hope that some filthy rich adventurer will take her on a ride into space from whence they disappear… never to be heard of again. 😉
         • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 12:05 pm

           Lol, Elon might have a flight for her…watch out for the eyebrows…

           It is hard to believe she is in office again, casually knifing people (politically) with gay abandon…
       • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1.2

         31 January 2024 at 5:49 pm

         Yes TM, and Anne, bloody amazing. I often wonder what it is that protects her? From Key's wrath, a failed leadership, and now with a fist in the judiciary pie, and he side kick Minister of Police. Guess the Fraud Squad will get big cuts???
   • Tricledrown 2.2

     31 January 2024 at 12:37 pm

     [deleted]

     [You must respond to your Mod note (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-01-2024/#comment-1985677) before commenting – Incognito]
     • Incognito 2.2.1

       31 January 2024 at 6:23 pm

       Mod note
3. Dennis Frank 3

   31 January 2024 at 9:17 am

   A public spat between prominent leftists is always interesting, huh? https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2024/01/31/mediawatch-robert-reid-launches-devastating-strike-against-chris-trotter/

   I was quite chuffed that the tweet had 19,000 impressions, 1,120 engagements and 475 likes and 118, mostly favourable comments.

   However, my tweet seemed to disturb the equilibrium of your columnist who called my tweet: “hair-raising”, “jaw-dropping”, “excitable”, full of “egregious errors”, and making “loud alarums” (I had to look up the dictionary for that one) and “inflammatory claims”. Chris quotes one of the two joint statements released by the US on 11 January that names the 6 nations that were physically involved in the military attacks on the Houthis and Yemen but ignores the “on behalf of statement” of the same date (referred to above) that names NZ as a willing coalition partner.

   There is a saying on twitter that a tweet doesn’t age well. However, it seems that mine did. On 22 January 2024 following the first cabinet meeting of the year, the PM, Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of Defence in a somewhat bizarre post cabinet standup confirmed that not only was NZ part of the coalition at war with the Houthis, but also that NZ would now be “deploying a Defence Force team of six “highly trained” people to the Middle East to help provide maritime security in the Red Sea”.

   In my view if NZ is part of a military coalition and has made a deployment to this coalition, then NZ is at war as my tweet stated. Interestingly respected Otago University academic Robert Patman, 36th Parallel director, Paul Buchanan, and a number of others have come to similar conclusions or at least expressed similar concerns.

   To war, or not to war, that is the question. The answer is that it depends where you look. If you look at the govt, you see a stance of helping the warriors without actually being one. A helping stance is useful due to plausible moral justification for doing what's right in any situation – even a marginal influence may steer the thing so as to produce a suitable outcome. The trick is not to define the thing.

   In terms of physics, making something definite collapses the wave function. In situations where flow of the whole is the key operational context to use, you adapt using a fluid stance to guide your tactics & strategy. Tacit works better than explicit.

   Reid & Trotter are feeling different parts of the elephant, to jump the metaphor shark, and complicity in warfare is happening without the govt being at war in actuality. Note there's only 6 helpers being sent: the govt sadly missed out on the prospect of magical influence by not including a seventh helper…
   • Muttonbird 3.1

     31 January 2024 at 9:43 am

     Trotter is not a leftist.
     • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 10:16 am

       Might be time for Mr Trotter to turn off the MacBook for a while, when you get down to the level of criticising a working class stalwart such as Robert Reid it is obvious he is not just erratic and vacillating, but joined the ranks of right opportunists. Sad, knew Chris well during his union days with the Distribution Workers Federation and others, but he has clearly been unhappy for a while and if he has thrown his lot in with reactionaries best he admit it rather than playing all sides as he has done for years with his columns.

       Years back in the ’80s CT got opprobrium from many unionists when he started writing for the National Business Review which was a big deal back in pre digital times. “Positive engagement” the apologists said, but people’s class position runs deep and not too many jump the fence, ironically Robert Reid did, as he was very briefly, a young Nat! but against CMT (Compulsory Military Training) which he and others campaigned successfully against.

       Robert has been a Marxist internationalist for many decades, known around Asia Pacific in particular in such circles. From car industry struggles to TUF to building unions in the Pacific, running First Union, on the WEAG review, he has done more than most NZ online pundits could imagine.

       This country had no hardware to smash into one of the poorest countries on the planet along with the heroic poms and yanks–but–we are fully complicit thanks to 5 Eyes connections. Our involvement will help target people to be killed–sounds like participation in armed conflict to me. US Imperialism always wants cover, the “willing” and it is shameful indeed that this Govt. has given it to them during one of the worst examples of vindictive genocide since the WWII Warsaw Ghetto.
     • Ad 3.1.2

       31 January 2024 at 12:00 pm

       Compared to what?

       The right look for partnerships, the left look for traitors.
       • Muttonbird 3.1.2.1

         31 January 2024 at 12:31 pm

         Compared to Robert Reid, for one.

         If the left look for traitors, it looks like they found one in Chris Trotter.
         • Louis 3.1.2.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 1:10 pm

           Muttonbird.
         • Ad 3.1.2.1.2

           31 January 2024 at 2:56 pm

           Trotter is the most-read and most-popular left columnist New Zealand has.

           This is not a moment to encourage the left to fall out with each other.
           • Muttonbird 3.1.2.1.2.1

             31 January 2024 at 3:04 pm

             Stop describing Chris Trotter as left. Just stop it, he's not.
             • Tiger Mountain …

               31 January 2024 at 5:21 pm

               
             • weka …

               31 January 2024 at 5:33 pm

               what is he then?
               • Patricia Bremner …

                 31 January 2024 at 5:53 pm

                 A self appointed critic.
                 • weka …

                   31 January 2024 at 6:47 pm

                   plenty of those that are lw 😉
               • Muttonbird …

                 1 February 2024 at 9:29 am

                 I think he's corrupt and has corrupted himself. There's a clear abandonment of left values as described by SPC just below @3.1.2.1.2.2. I believe you were also shocked at his call to arms against Maori the other day.

                 He's corrupted because this slide to the privileged, authoritarian right has coincided with a move to platforms such as, er, The Platform and various astroturfing outfits like New Zealand Centre for Political Research as described below by Reality @7.

                 What do they say? You are the company you keep.

                 I also know you are interested in this as it pertains to your idea that left/right boundaries are becoming less relevant as people find themselves at odds with the political values of the people they normally identify with. This can be true in for single issues maybe (I was against Seymour’s legalised murder legislation but a lot of lefties voted for it), but when the weight of ideals you hold has shifted so far to the right then you’re in trouble.
                 • Anne …

                   1 February 2024 at 10:13 am

                   I could be wrong here because I don't keep up to date with the machinations of the MSM sites as such, but it does seem to me he is no longer among the 'go to' journalists and commentators – at least not in the way he used to be. That would have damaged his ego no end, and could be the reason he's turned to the right wing platforms you mentioned. It gives him the opportunity to remain relevant in the competitive world of political and social commentary.
           • SPC 3.1.2.1.2.2

             31 January 2024 at 7:03 pm

             His opposition to a CGT, because those of his demographic (older people who owned their home) did not support it, is class based – just not left wing or working class.

             His narrative that Maori are a threat to democracy makes him part of the Brash/Seymour ilk, the Maori/Treaty etc as a block on global market supremacy over the nation state political society and economy to be removed.

             It's a counter-point to transforming what is left of government into a funder of external delivery providers and ending any expectation of government having any role in making society better for the majority. Why, because the many of the next generation might not be property owners in their own land (and that was once seen as the basis for participation in democratic government decision-making) and so they are supposed to settle for worker class wage to pay "occupation" rent until they are too old to work.

             His blindness to that and the influence of his peer group 1950's boomer assimilation era New Zealander with property ownership makes him useless to the 21st C left (he'd probably stand on his own grave declaring no estate tax).
             • roblogic …

               31 January 2024 at 7:27 pm

               💯% SPC … Trotter's "class" analysis only applies to people like himself; he's turned into a grumpy old reactionary
     • Louis 3.1.3

       31 January 2024 at 1:10 pm

       Muttonbird.
   • Ad 3.2

     31 January 2024 at 9:45 am

     We will get the results of the Australia-New Zealand Defence+Foreign Affairs summit by Monday.

     It likely takes us a long way into commitment deeper than 6 intelligence staff.
     • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1

       31 January 2024 at 10:21 am

       What do you mean “we” Ad man?

       Sounds like a 5 Eyes obligation to me–further linking this country to more totally unnecessary warmongering via AUKUS.
       • Ad 3.2.1.1

         31 January 2024 at 11:05 am

         Warmongering? Please.

         If anyone can read the tealeaves of Biden's silence on the response to 3 US soldiers dead and 50 wounded from the missile attack, for a response "at a time of their choosing", resisting all those FoxNews and Republican chickenhawk revenge fantasies for launching attacks directly on Iran, well 'warmongering' isn't the term that springs to mind.

         It was only yesterday that the US, Egypt, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia were outlining an interim post-Gaza fighting peace deal. So the US should expect further terrorist provocation like rocket attacks to derail that.

         What is on the table from Saudi Arabia and Egypt is a pathway toward a Palestinian state in return for Saudi recognition of Israel. In turn this is the most efficient way to block Iran growing its proxy base.

         Biden appears to be holding his nerve better than leaders in Lebanon, Israel, Iran. We need neither peacenik non-interventionists nor warmongers. We need results from hard bargaining.
         • Subliminal 3.2.1.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 12:47 pm

           Hard bargaining from Biden?? Not even a hiccup in the supply of weapons to rain down on Gaza as far as I can see. Only continual reinforcement of US support for Israel and by implication, its active genocide in Gaza. It would be far simpler to make a case for active encouragement than for any kind of "hard bargaining"
           • Ad 3.2.1.1.1.1

             31 January 2024 at 2:50 pm

             I agree that Biden is not using the military supply leveraging that he could. But let's never suggest this is a US problem. The US has no interests to defend in Gaza, socially, economically or militarily.

             Biden will never order a "boots on the ground" peace-enforcing role for US troops – ever. So his instruments are diplomacy and missiles in combination.

             The more each front opens up, the less possible specific country peace deals become possible. At least not until Netanyahu gets real domestic pressure himself, or Saudi Arabia offers something very, very sweet to him.
   • Ad 3.3

     31 January 2024 at 11:09 am

     You need to read Trotter's "No Right Turn" book again. He documents the key moments that actively conspired against the left from the entire previous century. He did that better than Jesson or anyone else.

     However the left evolves in this Parliamentary term, it's probably only Trotter that can show the left how we got here.
     • Dennis Frank 3.3.1

       31 January 2024 at 12:38 pm

       I never read it – I never found his writing in his political review journal to be particularly impressive altho some of his essays in recent years have been positive contributions and insightful. Never saw him even attempt to explain why & how the NLP performed so poorly and he's had 30 years or so to get that job done.

       Similarly for Jesson although always worth reading and did a good job in his mirror-glass book which I did buy! Tony Simpson was better than both, discerning relevant power dynamics in our historical contexts & an excellent storyteller too.
       • Ad 3.3.1.1

         31 January 2024 at 2:53 pm

         Simpson was a socialist romantic; fine for the Sugarbag Years and not much chop after WW2.

         With Easton's The Economic History of New Zealand that came out late 2022, the gap we have is someone to write The Millennial Political Economy of New Zealand .
         • Dennis Frank 3.3.1.1.1

           31 January 2024 at 3:03 pm

           Slavish adherence to British precedence, yet the neolib hegemony teeters on this slippery demographic slope:

           According to a report published in July by the rightwing thinktank the Institute for Economic Affairs (IEA), younger Britons have taken a decidedly leftwing turn. Nearly 80% blame capitalism for the housing crisis, while 75% believe the climate emergency is “specifically a capitalist problem” and 72% back sweeping nationalisation. All in all, 67% want to live under a socialist economic system. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/20/eat-the-rich-why-millennials-and-generation-z-have-turned-their-backs-on-capitalism

           Likely the Tory govt has consolidated the effect in the 2.5 years since that was published. Cue Starmer, headed in on a landslide apparently.
   • Jilly Bee 3.4

     31 January 2024 at 1:45 pm

     C'mon Dennis – since when has Chris Trotter been remotely leftist. I gave up on Bowalley Road (and the Daily Blog also) a few years ago now.
     • Dennis Frank 3.4.1

       31 January 2024 at 2:18 pm

       Most people still see him in that category though. I agree that testimony of personal values doesn't feature much in his style. Who do you rate as a leftist opinionator?

       Some years back I bought & read What's Left: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Left-How-Lost-its/dp/0007229704

       It was actually worthwhile. A younger generational view too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Cohen

       He is an atheist but says he is becoming "more Jewish".

       If he feels that fickle finger of god tapping on his shoulder, could be the tidal pull of normalcy.

       Cohen criticised Ecuador for granting political asylum to Julian Assange and called Ecuador a "petro-socialist authoritarian state". He has also been critical of the CANZUK agreement, calling it "an Anglo-Saxon Narnia".

       As if that were a negative thing! Not clever at all. However Maduro's petrosocialist authoritarianism is an enduring style, so he got that right.
     • weka 3.4.2

       31 January 2024 at 3:09 pm

       I don't read Trotter much, but he is old school left (centre left if you like).
4. Robin The Goodfellow 4

   31 January 2024 at 9:57 am

   I know its not my normal email but I can't seem to post under my proper one?

   [lprent: That is because you have a permanent ban for your previous behaviour. Basically being a dim-witted fatuous troll who won’t listen to moderators telling you repeatably to lift your standard of commenting carries consequences. We don’t mind debate here. But it has to actually carry some information, if only about your opinions and the reasons behind them. Just being a brainless parrot trying to be funny doesn’t reach the standard. Try the ever diminishing X or something even more brainless.

   A permanent ban means that we don’t allow your comments on this site because you waste the time of our moderators and add nothing to debate.

   Eventually I get around to releasing bans even permanent ones. It happens about once every 3-5 years when I think that the size of the banned list is starting to slow the site. Also I have enough faith that eventually even brainless trolls grow up and join humanity.

   I have added this ‘e-mail’ to your ban record. ]
   • weka 4.1

     31 January 2024 at 3:15 pm

     Rosemary, your ban mod note is here,

     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-01-2024/#comment-1983574

     When you come back, I'm open to having a conversation about what the problem is. But the upshot is wasting moderator time, we just can't sustain it.
   • Johnr 4.2

     31 January 2024 at 5:16 pm

     Good God Lprent. I thought personal abuse was verboten. We live and learn
     • James Thrace 4.2.1

       1 February 2024 at 12:18 am

       Johnr – because LPrent owns the standard he considers it gives him absolute license to be abusive and small minded and be a bully to people on here, which is totally against the rules here.

       however, none of the mods pull him up against it no matter how much they tell other commentators not to bully or use diminishing words against others.

       I don’t particularly pay any attention to what Lynn says because he’s just a grumpy old fuck that thinks because the standard is “his site” he can go ahead and abuse others with impunity.

       but between him, advantage, and weka, the standard has become far less enjoyable as a forum for a free exchange of ideas with differences of opinions being thrashed out openly using education, exploration, and elimination.

       it’s a crying shame really. From the valuable asset it was in 2008 when a free exchange of ideas was allowed whereas on red alert it was shut down, to weka’s indiscriminate bans on everybody interesting because they didn’t link to stuff/nzh, the standard has become a place of groupthink where only happy ideas can be raised.
       • roblogic 4.2.1.1

         1 February 2024 at 5:53 am

         wrong – there is plenty of diverse opinion around here. bans are generally handed out after a pattern of repeated antisocial behaviour – some things cause discussion to break down

         of course it aint perfect because there are humans involved

         'groupthink'; 'grumpy' – well yeah it's a left-wing forum facing a right wing government that is hell-bent on demolishing the social fabric and inciting racial divisions

         some examples would be nice… there was some strife during Covid when one (ex)-moderator went anti-vax and got frustrated with everyone constantly rebutting his ‘facts’ so he’s not around much anymore…
5. Corey 5

   31 January 2024 at 11:19 am

   Nancy Pelosi being a deranged vicious thug calling Palestine supporters paid Russian agents and demanding the Fbi investigate the Guardian article for reference.

   Ever since the democrats lost 2016 the media and public have allowed with no push back for the democrats to blame everything they don't like on Russia.

   If you disagree with the democrats you're guilty of treason and the boot of the state should crush your neck according to the democrats.

   68% of Americans want a cease fire, including 50% of 2020 democrats (30% are unsure) the whole country and democratic party according to establishment dems are Russian agents.

   Pelosi, Biden, Schumer and all these paid corporate war mongering geriatrics are so out of touch they forget they have to actually win elections to stay in power and when they lose it it's not their fault it's china's, it's Russias, it's nazis, anyone but their own unelectable selves.

   The 2024 usa election is a grudge match between mask off war mongering, corporate senile geriatric hard right wing authoritarians who like gays and girl bosses

   VS mask off xenophobic authoritarian isolationists who don't believe in the constitution.

   As someone who spends a lot of time in the states, the latter is far more popular, even among gays, Latinos and African Americans in New York city.

   Pelosi, Biden, Schiff, Schumer et all are lunatics.
   • Tricledrown 5.1

     31 January 2024 at 12:33 pm

     [deleted]

     [You must respond to your Mod note (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20-01-2024/#comment-1985677) before commenting – Incognito]
     • Incognito 5.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 6:22 pm

       Mod note
   • Mike the Lefty 5.2

     31 January 2024 at 1:06 pm

     Its all about money, which which quite normal in USA.

     Zionist and other hard line Israeli supporters still have considerable clout in US banking and finance so the Democrats are not likely to give anything but the most lukewarm support to their Palestinian enemies and risk their donations coming to a halt.
6. Mike the Lefty 6

   31 January 2024 at 1:02 pm

   Roy Morgan polling reports that a December 2023 political poll shows the NACTZ coalition down 6.5 points from the last poll compared to the Labour-Greens-Te Pati Maori bloc. All three of the triumvirate are down in support.

   A relevant quote from the film "Spaceballs".

   "I hope it's going to be a long ceremony because it's going to be a short honeymoon…"
   How true.
   • Belladonna 6.1

     31 January 2024 at 1:22 pm

     Is there any explanation over why it's taken so long to be released? It's virtually a month out of date, by now.
     • Mike the Lefty 6.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 1:36 pm

       No explanation given.

       Perhaps it is due to the Christmas/New Year break.
7. Reality 7

   31 January 2024 at 1:12 pm

   Well, well, well. In today's Post was an insert printed and distributed by the New Zealand Centre for Political Research "The Treaty of Waitangi an Explanation Te Tiriti O Waitangi" by the Hon Sir Apirana Ngata. On looking up the website of this outfit, listed as writing regular articles are Karl du Fresne, Owen Jennings, Chris Trotter, Muriel Newman, Roger Douglas, Michael Bassett.

   Seems like the start of a political campaign to influence the public over David Seymour's intentions re the Treaty. Obviously some heavy hitters hard at work behind the scenes.
   • Robert Guyton 7.1

     31 January 2024 at 1:19 pm

     A glimpse behind the mask.
   • roblogic 7.2

     31 January 2024 at 6:05 pm

     @joshuadrummond.cynics.guide:

     NZCPR are full-blown climate change and indigenous rights deniers, one of the most malfeasant institutions in the country. For Stuff to take their ad money (and for Newstalk ZB to give founder Muriel Newman a premium platform) is a catastrophic moral failure

     @dejanajuk.bsky.social:

     NZCPR has form for racism & misinformation and is headed by an ex ACT MP. Its not research they do It’s ideologically driven far right reckons.

     Moana Maniapoto wrote an excellent analysis back in 2016

     Māori bashers and the morality of the media who empower them | E-Tangata
8. Dennis Frank 8

   31 January 2024 at 1:18 pm

   Labour was promoting this macho dude online but Willie calls it an error:

   The man who has called himself the “king of toxic masculinity” has 8.7 million followers on X, formerly Twitter. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-uses-gif-of-influencer-andrew-tate-charged-with-rape-human-trafficking-to-endorse-instagram-post/ZXY7XDHYZBEF5JSSKPWVBK6CQE/

   Notice how he carefully avoided blaming a junior staffer:

   The Herald requested a statement from Hipkins and Labour’s Māori caucus. A Labour spokeswoman only provided a statement from Māori caucus co-chair Willie Jackson, who said the inclusion of the Tate GIF was “clearly an error” and was removed as soon as it was recognised.

   Is this adroit or what!!? Just when everyone has been conditioned to expect Labour to always copy National, they don't! I have to give Willie 8/10 for such expertise.

   Labour has admitted to an error in using a GIF of divisive influencer Andrew Tate – a man charged with rape and human trafficking – to endorse a post on one of the party’s Instagram accounts. The post, a reel, was put up on the Labour Māori caucus’ account last week. It featured a screenshot of a 1News article about Labour leader Chris Hipkins’ comments at Rātana.

   It was complemented with a GIF, an animated image, of Tate accompanied by the word “Correct!”.

   Great minds think alike!! Yet inexplicably Labour's pr machine has failed to use this conventional explanation. They just lack the common touch.
   • alwyn 8.1

     31 January 2024 at 6:00 pm

     "he carefully avoided blaming a junior staffer"

     I thought that Willie was a junior staffer these days. Does he really have any influence on the Caucus?
     • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

       31 January 2024 at 7:54 pm

       Do you really have to ask? Surely you can imagine the desperation within Labour if he were to play the pied piper & lead the Labour Maori off to join the Maori Party.

       Not that he's likely to do so currently whilst they present as radicals. Labour's mishandling of co-governance masked good intent: rectifying the official shambles. So Willie will remain within, to respect Labour's marginal grasp on authenticity. You can see the ole good cop analogy for their role in Labour (TMP bad).
9. Muttonbird 9

   31 January 2024 at 3:17 pm

   On the Police numbers saga, it feels like Mitchell went to Willis and asked for the money required to fund 500 new cops in two years and/or be exempt from the 6.5-7.5% public service cuts…and Willis said no.

   So Mark gets up in parliament and lays this bare as if to say, 'I wanted two years but she wouldn't let me'. Now Egg-head has had to flop flop, Mitchell forced to correct, and the cops will come in two, despite the cuts everyone else has to make.

   Canny from Mitchell, looks like he called Willis' bluff and got his way:

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/mark-mitchell-formally-corrects-record-in-parliament-over-police-numbers-mistake.html

   If I were a journalist (and I should be), I’d be asking these questions.
10. weka 10

    31 January 2024 at 3:47 pm

    Speak Up For Women's briefings to incoming ministers.

    https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/bims
    • roblogic 10.1

      31 January 2024 at 5:21 pm

      Very nice but I think SUFW overestimates the intellect of your average National MP – need to dumb down those briefings 😛

      Richard Dawkins on the subject of biological sex:

      Sex is not defined by chromosomes, nor by anatomy, nor by psychology or sociology, nor by personal inclination, nor by “assignment at birth”, but by gamete size. It happens to be embryologically DETERMINED by chromosomes in mammals and (in the opposite direction) birds, by temperature in some reptiles, by social factors in some fish. But it is universally DEFINED by the binary distinction between sperms and eggs.

      You may argue about “gender” if you wish (biologists have better things to do) but sex is a true binary, one of rather few in biology.
11. roblogic 11

    31 January 2024 at 5:14 pm

    A much-needed new blog exploring the machinations of right wing networks operating in Aotearoa

    astroturfing.nz — also on bluesky

    There's a lot of underhanded shit going on – David Seymour spearheading most of it – and people like Josh Drummond are doing important work exposing it.
    • Tiger Mountain 11.1

      31 January 2024 at 5:56 pm

      Thanks roblogic will follow this, good to have info on back channel dirty stuff corralled in an easy to find spot.

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