World War?

Written By: - Date published: 1:39 pm, April 7th, 2017 - 221 comments
Categories: International, Syria, war - Tags: , ,

So, it seems the neo-cons are having their way. According to The Guardian – I dare say there are plenty of other sources – the US is now launching cruise missile strikes in Syria, targeting military installations.

CNN reports that the missile launches took place around an hour ago, at 8.45 ET – that would have been 3.45am in Syria. The targets at the military airbase included runways, aircraft and fuel points.

Live update feed

This won’t end well.

221 comments on “World War? ”

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  1. LivinInTheBay 1
    7 April 2017 at 1:47 pm

    60 cruise missile by all accounts.

    It will be interesting to see how Putin reacts to this.

    • Maui 1.1
      7 April 2017 at 2:40 pm

      This is how real sarin attacks are dealt with, using full-body positive-pressure hazmat suits. The scenes are from the attack on the Tokyo subway several years back.

      http://jto.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/n-sarin-b-20150321.jpg

      Evidence from Russian sources suggest it was either chlorine products. Alternatively it was more of the phosphine agents Lizzie Phelan reported on the liberation of Aleppo.

      https://www.facebook.com/lizzie.cocker/posts/10154038354450887

      Read more at https://syrianperspective.com/2017/04/terrorists-and-supporters-growing-ever-desperate-as-syrian-army-breaks-the-back-of-the-siege-in-dayr-el-zor-syrian-army-about-to-liberate-hilfaayaa-and-move-to-eradicate-british-cockroaches-in-lataki.html#Hjsx0tX67XcgodmG.99‘

    • D'Esterre 1.2
      7 April 2017 at 2:55 pm

      LivinInTheBay: “It will be interesting to see how Putin reacts to this.”

      The US attack is a catastrophe. Our best hope is that Russia at least can be grownup. No chance of that from Trump and the neocons. Iran is right: the US is the great satan.

      I hope that we here can keep our heads down below the parapet.

      • WILD KATIPO 1.2.1
        7 April 2017 at 3:07 pm

        Why ?… why be naive about it?

        Why be scared its going to escalate into some sort of conflagration when its clearly a controlled backburning?

        Why not view it from a geopolitical vantage point instead?

        • D'Esterre 1.2.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 3:30 pm

          Wild Katipo: “Why ?… why be naive about it?

          Why be scared its going to escalate into some sort of conflagration when its clearly a controlled backburning?

          Why not view it from a geopolitical vantage point instead?”

          I’m pleased for you that you can take such a dispassionate view. I’ve seen events of this sort before; it never ends well for the unfortunates on the ground, and the deleterious consequences reverberate throughout subsequent years. I won’t bother listing them: they’re easily enough searchable.

          Here we have the US leaping to catastrophic judgement on an event about which it – and we – do not have full knowledge. Ask who benefits from the precipitating event, whatever it was? Certainly not Syria, which is well on the way to breaking the back of the jihadist conflict. Who has chemical weapons? Not Syria: it surrendered them to the US and Russia several years ago.

          I’m reminded of the weapons of mass destruction myth all those years ago; despite the fact that Iraq had been enduring a sanctions regime that prevented it from acquiring the wherewithal to manufacture such weapons, the west – in particular the US and UK – trumpeted their existence. An illegal invasion and a huge number of deaths told us what many of us already knew: there were no WMDs, and nor could there have been. The disaster of Iraq continues to ripple throughout the ME. And throughout the world, as we know only too well….

          • WILD KATIPO 1.2.1.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 4:10 pm

            Exactly .

            And that is the lie.

            As I’ve said,… it was an agreed on path for several reasons. Its not dispassionate – its cynical. And its also to allay fears of a a world war three. It aint gonna happen.

            Its a backburning exercise. Not a conflagration. The weapons of mass destruction was the same. Fabrication. And that’s the point I’m making .You’ve had the fake news. You’ve had the bogus reasons for entering Iraq. What more do you want?

            Work it out.

            Or else join the queue’s sucking up the fake news narrative that is being splashed around the globe by the MSM as we speak and continue sucking up to the lie.

            See some of my comments further down the post to see what Im getting at.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.1.2
            7 April 2017 at 5:14 pm

            Who has chemical weapons? Not Syria: it surrendered them to the US and Russia several years ago.

            You do realise that it’s possible to manufacture them, eh.

            A number of production pathways can be used to create sarin. The final reaction typically involves attachment of the isopropoxy group to the phosphorus with an alcoholysis with isopropyl alcohol. Two variants of this process are common. One is the reaction of methylphosphonyl difluoride with isopropyl alcohol

            Wikipedia.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.1.2.1
              7 April 2017 at 5:34 pm

              PS: always assuming Syria didn’t just lie about relinquishing their chemical weapons.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.2.2
              7 April 2017 at 5:38 pm

              Yes, they can be manufactured – and the US can always lie as it did to justify its invasion of Iraq and Vietnam.

              Going on past evidence it’s the US that’s lying.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 April 2017 at 5:54 pm

                I hate to break it to you, but truth is the first casualty of government. The US is nothing special in this regard.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  7 April 2017 at 6:35 pm

                  I hate to break it to you, but truth is the first casualty of government.

                  No, it’s the first casualty of hierarchy.

                • Morrissey …
                  7 April 2017 at 8:32 pm

                  Actually, the U.S. is in a Super League of its own when it comes to lying campaigns. You would know that if you actually knew anything about what you’re talking about.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    8 April 2017 at 5:50 pm

                    Thanks Morrissey, I was so wrong about duplicity and governments until you set me straight with your infinite experience of reading the internet.

            • D'Esterre 1.2.1.1.2.3
              8 April 2017 at 12:20 pm

              OAB: “You do realise that it’s possible to manufacture them, eh.”

              No kidding, Chester….

              The question is why it would have done so. And – critically – why it would use such weapons now, if it had them, given the fact that the tide of war has turned in its favour. In 2013, it surrendered them, and the US was involved in their destruction. If it has no such weapons, ergo, it cannot have used any.

              On the other hand, we have evidence that ISIS has been stockpiling and using chemical weapons. This latest incident has the hallmarks of a false flag attack, designed to white-ant the peace process.

              People should by now be aware of how much propganda regarding Syria that we’re being exposed to. Be sceptical of everything that casts the Assad government in a bad light; we really have little idea how much of it is true.

              And in the meantime, people have died – again – in another unsanctioned attack by the US. Insanity….

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2
          7 April 2017 at 5:29 pm

          From a geopolitical perspective the US just committed the greatest of all war crimes by attacking a sovereign nation.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.1.2.1
            7 April 2017 at 5:51 pm

            If the Syrian air force used chemical weapons, I don’t care who degrades their capacity to do.

            If the US has evidence that links the use of Sarin gas to these targets, in common law it’s legal to use force in defence of others. Is it legal for a state to use force to prevent a war crime?

            If not why not?

            As to whether the USA is anyone’s idea of global police, yeah nah. Global Jon Graham Burge more like.

            • DS 1.2.1.2.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 6:21 pm

              >> Is it legal for a state to use force to prevent a war crime?

              No.

              Force must either be self-defence or authorised by the UN Security Council.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 April 2017 at 6:31 pm

                The USA’s lawyers will no doubt argue that the proliferation of chemical weapons is a clear and present danger to the USA. If they can back that up with evidence that connects the use of Sarin gas to this particular airfield, then what?

                • DS …
                  7 April 2017 at 11:05 pm

                  Nothing – the US is not a signatory to the ICC, so is under no obligation to extradite those responsible to the Hague, while it would cheerfully veto any attempt by the Security Council to hold it accountable. Basically, it’s the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction nonsense all over again, with even less justification (nukes are destructive on a massive scale, chemical weapons may be incredibly cruel are actually very ineffective at destroying anything outside a very localised area).

                  So what you would have instead is the Tony Blair precedent – certain people have to be rather careful where they travel lest they face prosecution.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    8 April 2017 at 2:35 pm

                    …whereupon their lawyers would argue as above.

                    Assuming Assad is the perpetrator, the only valid objection raised thus far is the unilateral nature of the strike.

                    • DS …
                      10 April 2017 at 6:28 pm

                      And, assuming they were being tried, the argument would not fly. The case law regarding self defence is clear – you need a crystalised threat (a la the Arab states readying to attack Israel in 1967) that leaves no other option. Another state possessing or using weapons (a la Iraq or Syria) does not constitute self-defence.

                      The unilateral nature of the strike is indeed the problem. If the US strike were signed off by the UN, there would be no problem. As it is, it is illegal.

            • D'Esterre 1.2.1.2.1.2
              8 April 2017 at 12:39 pm

              OAB: “If the Syrian air force used chemical weapons, I don’t care who degrades their capacity to do.

              If the US has evidence that links the use of Sarin gas to these targets, in common law it’s legal to use force in defence of others. Is it legal for a state to use force to prevent a war crime?”

              Give it up: you’re on the wrong side of the argument here. Draco T Bastard is dead right. Also DS below.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                8 April 2017 at 1:58 pm

                Draco says the attacking another country’s military airbase is the “greatest” of war crimes. Personally I think genocide and mass rape (for example) are far worse.

                You’re entitled to your opinion, of course.

      • Rightly or Wrongly 1.2.2
        7 April 2017 at 4:24 pm

        A catastrophe?

        A week ago many on the left were clambering for action about the possibility of the death of a 3yr old girl in Afghanistan.

        In Syria dozens of people are gassed to death (including 27 children) and now there is manufactured angst over the US holding Assad to account?

        Don’t Syrians matter? They did a couple of years ago when the left wanted Europe to absorb millions of them – what has changed?

        Or is it the case that a truism of the left is that Trump is the devil and so anything he does is evil even if its the right thing to do?

        Wasn’t that long ago Trump was being accused of of being too friendly with the Russians – now the left is scared Trump will set off war with Russia?

        I think that he has done the right thing sending a message to Assad that chemical warfare is unacceptable – especially against civilians.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.2.2.1
          7 April 2017 at 4:34 pm

          The difference is that YOU , – like so many on the Left who you accuse of doing,… are naively confusing domestic politics with geopolitical politics and how ‘ bargaining ‘ for self interest is done.

          And trying to draw similarities between the two.

          The incident in Afghanistan is a matter for New Zealand , the integrity of its current govt and its Defense Force – and whether the ICC sees merit in conducting an investigation – something we in NZ have direct control over.

          What has happened in Syria we have less control over bar not getting involved.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2.2
          7 April 2017 at 5:35 pm

          In Syria dozens of people are gassed to death (including 27 children) and now there is manufactured angst over the US holding Assad to account?

          He’s not holding Assad to account. He’s merely attacking blindly.

          Or is it the case that a truism of the left is that Trump is the devil and so anything he does is evil even if its the right thing to do?

          War crimes, as he just carried out, are not the right thing to do.

          I think that he has done the right thing sending a message to Assad that chemical warfare is unacceptable

          He didn’t send that message though. He sent the message that no matter if he knows the facts or not he will attack.

          It’s nothing more than Gunboat Diplomacy – do as I say or I’m going to blow the shit out of you.

        • Barry 1.2.2.3
          8 April 2017 at 1:46 pm

          Thanks R or W – the most sensible post on this topic

      • reason 1.2.3
        7 April 2017 at 8:46 pm

        Lets hope D’Esterre ….otherwise The blood hounds are on the loose again …….. Genocide is in the air

        “When discussing the US in terms of international relations any balanced discussion should center around its illegal acts of aggression, its use of covert violence to impose brutally repressive regimes on victim populations, and its overwhelming predominance as a source of structural violence causing immiseration and death on an unimaginable scale.

        One might object that surely these alleged genocides are then, at best, debatable. That’s the puzzle though; these are not debatable genocides, they are rather blatant. Carpet-bombing; fire-storms; nuclear explosions; massacres from the air, massacres on the ground; whole populations poisoned for generations to come; death -squad killings of community leaders. political leaders, union leaders, intellectuals. artists. teachers; economic destruction; cultural destruction; terror, torture and violent death used to traumatize whole populations and destroy the social fabric of nations. These are all well documented behaviors. How does it come to be that these patterns of behavior could be seen as anything but genocidal. What else could they be?” …. Kieran Robert Kelly ” The context of Iraq Genocide ” 2012

        Pity the people of the middle east …. and their children

    • Poission 1.3
      7 April 2017 at 3:29 pm

      It will be interesting to see how Putin reacts to this.

      He was notified prior,congress was not.

    • billmurray 1.4
      7 April 2017 at 4:05 pm

      LivinTheBay,

      I believe that Putin will state that Assad was not responsible and that Russia will still support his Presidency.

      Excellent article by Chris Trotter currently on Bowally Road, I think Chris hits the nail.

      Scary shit is happening.

      Link – http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/

  2. WILD KATIPO 2
    7 April 2017 at 1:52 pm

    Yup,… there goes the Trump / Putin love in…

    Oh well…. sit back and enjoy whats left…

    FLEETWOOD MAC – Oh Well (1969 UK TV Performance … – YouTube
    Video for oh well fleetwood mac you tube▶ 2:39

  3. Cemetery Jones 3
    7 April 2017 at 1:54 pm

    Conducted while hosting President Xi. Clear implications for NK relationship.

  4. Carolyn_nth 4
    7 April 2017 at 1:58 pm

    Al Jazeera is reporting that Trump said the security of the US is at stake…. say what???!!!

    When I was watching AJ English earlier, a commentator said that air strikes will achieve little, but that it would need boots on the ground. Basically, air strikes are a brutally, inhumane cosmetic exercise.

    AJ journo James Bays is now saying it’s a “punitive” attack.

    Russia was warned so there would be no Russian casualty.

    • Keith 4.1
      7 April 2017 at 3:44 pm

      The security of weapon manufacturer shareholder returns was what he meant!

      • paul andersen 4.1.1
        7 April 2017 at 3:50 pm

        nailed it.

        • paul andersen 4.1.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 3:52 pm

          buy shares in the cruise missile company (maybe northrop)

          • paul andersen 4.1.1.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 3:53 pm

            don the con probably borrowed russian rubles to buy some shares

            • paul andersen 4.1.1.1.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 3:55 pm

              vladimir will get the cruise missile technology through this, lol

              • Draco T Bastard …
                7 April 2017 at 5:56 pm

                Why would he want to? Russian missile tech is already as good as, if not better, than that of the US.

                • McFlock …
                  7 April 2017 at 6:00 pm

                  maybe, maybe not, but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and tweaks.

                  Always useful to see what’s in the other guy’s hand

                  • dukeofurl …
                    7 April 2017 at 6:08 pm

                    The russians were leaders in this sort of missile technology from the Khrushchev era.
                    The first ship sunk by a cruise missile was the israeli destroyer Elat, hit by russian missiles launched by Egypt.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 6:22 pm

                      Yeah, but they also have different design philosophies. Their missile cruisers in the caspian, for example.

                      I mean, there’s probably a significant amount of design convergence (a bit like how a lot of new assault rifles are beginning to look the same these days, as opposed to the significant external and internal differences between the AKM and M16), but at the same time do they have different ways of approaching navigation problems? Have the yanks figured a counter to point defense systems, like maybe jinking and dropping decoys upon passive detection of rapid cannon fire?

                      It’s not like they’d turn down a peek

                    • dukeofurl …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:50 pm

                      You dont know what you are talking about. the kalibr missiles can be launched from a range of vessels. Some were fired from subs and a frigate in the Med.
                      The Caspain sea is landlocked so it has smaller sized vessels.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 8:23 pm

                      So you agree with me that the ships in the Caspian are not really consistent with US approaches, which is all I fucking said on that matter?

                    • dukeofurl …
                      8 April 2017 at 12:15 pm

                      You still haven’t clarified your claim of ‘ different design philosophies’- what ever that means.
                      For both countries , these sort of winged missiles can be launched by ships, submarines, aircraft.
                      ( INF treaty rules out land launched)
                      Russia has used covettes in Caspian and Med, frigates and submarines ( and I think some of its Bombers but I havent checked)

                      Different versions mean they can be vertically launched ( like US) or from sub tubes or aircraft.
                      http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/05/24/kalibr-russia-naval-system-upping-cruise-missile-game.html

                      Just saying you ‘didnt realise that’ is sufficient , mistakes do happen you know!

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 1:14 pm

                      Well, for a slightly more detailed explanation look here. Knew I’d read it somewhere.

                      But if you can’t put the words “design” and “philosophy” together to form a coherent meaning, that’s not actually my fault, so stop pretending it is.

                      Device, especially weapon, evolution is frequently the result of common problems being solved from different perspectives. Some solutions are universally obvious.

                      wings+guidance+power+warhead goes all the way back to the V1, even the Kettering Bug.

                      Other solutions might not be: fuel mix, maybe a better star mapper using a filtered wavelength to see the stars through thicker cloud. Maybe manufacturing to different tolerances makes a change.

                      But I guess the best example of differing design philosophies was when nazi designers were asked to match the Russian T34 tank. Threw out most of the things that made it cheap to mass produce, resulted in an outstanding if unreliable behemoth that couldn’t be produced in decent numbers to change the course of the war. Whereas if they’d just cloned the t34, they would have made more of them and put off the inevitable

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.2
        7 April 2017 at 5:54 pm

        +111

  5. exkiwiforces 5
    7 April 2017 at 2:02 pm

    Well, it was going to happen sooner or later regardless who was POTUS.

    • Maui 5.1
      7 April 2017 at 3:29 pm

      It could be the start of of a larger strategy, but what intrigues me is that Hilary frames it in psycho-analytic terms implicating Putin “dead fathers looming presence and his delusion” and telling us “that is how Putin thinks”. Thanks Hilary, lets see how far that gets anyone in a chess tournament ..

    • lprent 5.2
      7 April 2017 at 4:58 pm

      … regardless who was POTUS

      Yes. Last time the Sarin attacks happened against civilian population in rebel held areas, Syria got out of retribution from the US and others because Russia brokered a deal whereby Syria renounced chemical weapons and supposedly destroyed them.

      However it doesn’t look to me that they did. Yes there has been chlorine attacks from Syrian planes without significiant retribution. But no apparent nerve agents.

      Certainly I can’t see any other players there doing this. As far as I am concerned any state or agency escalating into chemical agents especially nerve agents or nuclear weapons or biological weapons just made painted a very large target on themselves and deserves targeting of all of their military infrastructure capable of manufacturing, storing and delivering such terror weapons.

      The downstream consequences of leaving such acts unpunished are extremely disquieting and outright dangerous.

      Somehow I don’t think that Russia will interfere that much

      • marty mars 5.2.1
        7 April 2017 at 5:57 pm

        + 1 wise words mate.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2
        7 April 2017 at 5:58 pm

        As far as I am concerned any state or agency escalating into chemical agents especially nerve agents or nuclear weapons or biological weapons just made painted a very large target on themselves and deserves targeting of all of their military infrastructure capable of manufacturing, storing and delivering such terror weapons.

        True but I’d like to see it proved first and we haven’t seen that.

      • Liberal Realist 5.2.3
        7 April 2017 at 6:00 pm

        Certainly I can’t see any other players there doing this.

        Why would Assad stage a chemical attack on civilians when he know’s for well that doing this would most certainly result in retaliation from the US and their allies? It doesn’t make any sense to me unless he’s lost control of his armed forces?

        You don’t think that the Al Qaeda head choppers don’t have motive to stage a false flag to invite just the type of attack from the US has undertaken?

        It’s been reported that responders to the gas attack were not wearing the full body suits required to prevent secondary exposure, treating victims with bare hands etc.
        I don’t know if this is true but if it is how could the gas that was used be sarin? The exposed responders would be dead by now. Even secondary exposure (e.g. treating victims without protection) to sarin kills quickly.

        • dukeofurl 5.2.3.1
          7 April 2017 at 6:14 pm

          When US does somthing heinous, it has a ready list of ‘errors and faults’ to blame.
          When Syria does it of course the entire government is too blame.

          Not so sure about the sarin attack, as the photos seem too staged, and of course
          the Sunni states have the means and motive to create an incident like this. We dont really know

        • Psycho Milt 5.2.3.2
          7 April 2017 at 6:41 pm

          Why would Assad stage a chemical attack on civilians when he know’s for well that doing this would most certainly result in retaliation from the US and their allies?

          Because he doesn’t know that. Last time the US and its allies backed down. The lesson of the last five years for the Assad regime is that it can act with complete impunity – that all by itself answers the question of why it might do something that stupid.

          • Liberal Realist 5.2.3.2.1
            7 April 2017 at 7:00 pm

            Because he doesn’t know that. Last time the US and its allies backed down.

            Since when was it proven that the Syrian government was the perpetrator of the 2013 Ghouta chemical attack?

            • Psycho Milt 5.2.3.2.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 7:21 pm

              Since when was it proven that the Soviet government was the perpetrator of the Katyn massacre? “Proven” is a remarkably flexible concept when there are competing interests involved.

              However, even if we ascribe previous chemical warfare attacks in Syria to “person or persons unknown,” the lesson of the last five years for the Assad regime is that it can act with impunity – the current Russian government has seen to that. Today must have been a real shock for the Syrian top brass.

              • Liberal Realist …
                7 April 2017 at 7:54 pm

                Since when was it proven that the Soviet government was the perpetrator of the Katyn massacre? “Proven” is a remarkably flexible concept when there are competing interests involved.

                However, even if we ascribe previous chemical warfare attacks in Syria to “person or persons unknown,” the lesson of the last five years for the Assad regime is that it can act with impunity – the current Russian government has seen to that. Today must have been a real shock for the Syrian top brass.

                Okay I get your point around the flexibility of “Proven”. That said, there’s evidence that Al Qaeda / Al-Nusra perpetrated chemical attacks in 2013.

                Seems to me that the likes of Turkey and the Gulf States are the ones acting with impunity…

                See an excerpt from an article written by Seymour Hersh in 2014:

                “Last May, more than ten members of the al-Nusra Front were arrested in southern Turkey with what local police told the press were two kilograms of sarin. In a 130-page indictment the group was accused of attempting to purchase fuses, piping for the construction of mortars, and chemical precursors for sarin. Five of those arrested were freed after a brief detention. The others, including the ringleader, Haytham Qassab, for whom the prosecutor requested a prison sentence of 25 years, were released pending trial. In the meantime the Turkish press has been rife with speculation that the Erdoğan administration has been covering up the extent of its involvement with the rebels. In a news conference last summer, Aydin Sezgin, Turkey’s ambassador to Moscow, dismissed the arrests and claimed to reporters that the recovered ‘sarin’ was merely ‘anti-freeze’.

                The DIA paper took the arrests as evidence that al-Nusra was expanding its access to chemical weapons. It said Qassab had ‘self-identified’ as a member of al-Nusra, and that he was directly connected to Abd-al-Ghani, the ‘ANF emir for military manufacturing’. Qassab and his associate Khalid Ousta worked with Halit Unalkaya, an employee of a Turkish firm called Zirve Export, who provided ‘price quotes for bulk quantities of sarin precursors’. Abd-al-Ghani’s plan was for two associates to ‘perfect a process for making sarin, then go to Syria to train others to begin large scale production at an unidentified lab in Syria’. The DIA paper said that one of his operatives had purchased a precursor on the ‘Baghdad chemical market’, which ‘has supported at least seven CW efforts since 2004’.

                A series of chemical weapon attacks in March and April 2013 was investigated over the next few months by a special UN mission to Syria. A person with close knowledge of the UN’s activity in Syria told me that there was evidence linking the Syrian opposition to the first gas attack, on 19 March in Khan Al-Assal, a village near Aleppo. In its final report in December, the mission said that at least 19 civilians and one Syrian soldier were among the fatalities, along with scores of injured. It had no mandate to assign responsibility for the attack, but the person with knowledge of the UN’s activities said: ‘Investigators interviewed the people who were there, including the doctors who treated the victims. It was clear that the rebels used the gas. It did not come out in public because no one wanted to know.’”

                *my bold

                From here:

                https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

              • Psycho Milt …
                7 April 2017 at 8:47 pm

                Well, yeah, it’s possible there’s all these complicated duplicitous plots involving the foreign enemies of the Syrian regime carrying out false flag attacks designed to discredit the regime, or it’s possible the regime just fought its enemies with the weapons it had. For my money, any theory involving complex and wide-ranging conspiracies that nevertheless remain perfectly secret are of less value than more straightforward explanations, but maybe that’s just me.

          • reason 5.2.3.2.2
            7 April 2017 at 8:56 pm

            Impunity ????

            Thats the U.S you’ve just described …. The American empire

            Every kid in this video has been traumatized …. or killed …. in U.s.a sponsored wars/ ethnic cleansing /genocide .
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqRGTkMo3zk

            • Psycho Milt 5.2.3.2.2.1
              7 April 2017 at 9:27 pm

              I’m trying to establish a point to your comment. Is it that the US government also acts with impunity, therefore it’s OK for the Syrian government to gas people? Is it that the US government has somehow just randomly blown up a Syrian air base because it’s free to act with impunity? Is it that you’re just sadly obsessed with American crimes to the exclusion of everything else that happens in the world? Please clarify.

              • reason …
                7 April 2017 at 10:53 pm

                Your playing the fool … or taking me for one ….

                My point is ALL the lies behind the killing …. that you seem relaxed about …

                I suppose its not your kids in the firing line …..

                “For most the US wasn’t committing genocide, it was fighting wars.
                Only .. the Armenian genocide was a war- according to the Turks ; the Holocaust was a war – according to the Germans; the Tutsi genocide; the Herero genocide; Bosnia; even Democratic Kampuchea – all wars according to the perpetrators and their apologists. What is more they are all against insurgents, ‘terrorists’ and guerillas. The difference between US genocides and the others? There isn’t one. The different perspectives on the other hand, are easily explained. The bad things that THEY do are both symptomatic and purposive; the bad things that WE do are aberrant and unintended.. WE act out of honorable motives but may stray or be forced by the nefariousness of our opponents into regrettable acts:; They rationalist their hateful murderousness with excuses which wither in the face of mass death. This simple chauvinism can be very ro0bust and fact-proof, something well attested by the persistence of denial of the Armenian genocide in Turkey….”

                http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/10697-assassination-nation-from-the-phoenix-program-to-predator-drones

                You’d have to be a bone headed idiot to forget all the lies they always tell for their ‘humanitarian ‘ wars … or believe in humanitarian war for that matter.

                : They lied to invade and wage war on the Afghan people. We hunt down 3 year olds as just one result. …. 2001 to now … so many dead

                They spun many lies of chemical nature + nuclear and other assorted terrorist bullshit to invade Iraq and tear its country and people apart ….. still there … still doing it.

                They spun many lies to wage war on and destroy Libya as a contry ….. and a society .

                They lied to invade Vietnam and killed genocidal numbers of Vietnamse in a 100,000 and one different war crimes …. Millions dead

                … and on and on and on http://johnpilger.com/articles/don-t-forget-y

                We should not be supporting head chopping thugs in the destruction of a country http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/05/syria-revolution-aleppo-assad.html ….

                The people have had enough despite “the guts” from people who never risk their own …. or THEIR children.

                …. Their is actually a way to clean up corruption like ( Assads etc ), that does not involve killing 100,000s .
                \
                But as the Poms and Yanks with their Banks plus corporations neck deep in shadow banking/ tax havens….

                which are the lynch pins for corruption …. It all swings on them.

                then nothing will happen there …… and racist Muslim haters like yourself get your prejudices fed with war propaganda…

                Britians tax havens network is probably very symbiotic and helpful for its weapons Industry ….. rip off the poor … and blow them up.

                ….. Bill English does not smell burned human flesh …. he smells trade deal

        • exkiwiforces 5.2.3.3
          7 April 2017 at 7:42 pm

          “It’s been reported that responders to the gas attack were not wearing the full body suits required to prevent secondary exposure, treating victims with bare hands etc.
          I don’t know if this is true but if it is how could the gas that was used be sarin? The exposed responders would be dead by now. Even secondary exposure (e.g. treating victims without protection) to sarin kills quickly.”

          It depends on the dose, it also appears that chlorine was mixed in with therefore it would mask the sarin and may reduce it lethalness of sarin ie instead of a quick death a slow painful death either way it’s still nasty stuff.

          This was a surprise attack on defenceless people regardless if first responder’s were expecting CBRN attack you would still have casualties. but at reduce level Their Decom drills were very good, but basic stripping clothes of the casualties, hosing them with water before they receive medical care. As I said lastnight about the attack this was a classic CBRN attack using HE ordinance and possibly 2 Chemical bombs from I’ve from video footage.

          • exkiwiforces 5.2.3.3.1
            7 April 2017 at 9:12 pm

            This is the some of footage I’ve seen. What you would see is the first explosion which is a HE bomb follow by two more. Notice the lack of blast/ debris being throwing up. The second bomb the cloud is quite low to the ground and third has develop a small cloud which then collapse on itself (its a shame it not shown here).

            http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2017/s4648907.htm

            On the Janes defence website: states ISIS are using mustard/ phosphine base chemical agents which cause blistering, burns, blindness etc and I haven’t seen any evidence to say it was a mustard/ phosphine base chemical agents. Its all pointing to a nerve agent more likely to sarin. WHO is conducting tests on a few bodies in Turkey to ID what chemical agent was used.

        • lprent 5.2.3.4
          7 April 2017 at 8:10 pm

          You look at the evidence coming out after 2013?

          If they aren’t guilty then they sure sniffed a lot of chemicals

        • Venezia 5.2.3.5
          8 April 2017 at 9:53 am

          Among the dead were the first helpers on the scene, who did actually succumb to the gas. Reported in the Guardian and Al Jazeera English.

    • Skeptic 5.3
      7 April 2017 at 5:01 pm

      Agree – the only surprising thing is that the US response has been with conventional weapons.
      The US has a policy that all Nuclear, Chemical and Biological weapons are WMD and as the US doesn’t deploy Chemical or Biological weapons, their policy is to respond to WMD with nukes. I fully expected Damascus to be reduced to a radioactive parking lot when I heard of the use of Chemical weapons by Assad.
      I suspect Russia is well aware of this US policy and has or will lay a fairly heavy threat on Assad – something along the lines of “we don’t want our forces reduced to glow-in-the-dark troops, so we will pull our forces out and let the Yanks have a go if you do it again.”
      Trump will use this as an example for others to look at his regime and “be afraid – be very afraid” – in particular I’m thinking of North Korea.

  6. joe90 6
    7 April 2017 at 2:03 pm

    But…
    /

    What will we get for bombing Syria besides more debt and a possible long term conflict? Obama needs Congressional approval.— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 29, 2013

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/373146637184401408

  7. Stunned Mullet 7
    7 April 2017 at 2:05 pm

    Pity they didn’t target Assad.

    [I see from the ‘pending’ queue your apparent intent to just repeat that refrain up and down this thread. One week ban for glorifying death and killing] – Bill

    • exkiwiforces 7.1
      7 April 2017 at 2:16 pm

      Probably wouldn’t be a wise move to target Assad and god only knows what would happen if the US targeted Assad.

    • North 7.2
      7 April 2017 at 8:45 pm

      Justified response there Bill re the Stunted Mulllet. Been routinely watching CNN to keep up with daily developments in Washington. Acknowledging that I know bugger all in terms of hard facts (don’t have the time frankly holding down a demanding full time job) ……..but gotta say there’s a massive CNN number going on, Amanpour et al…….”Assad did this evil !” Well, I’m not confident, looking across the wholeness of it, and having regard to authoritative commentary……., to accept that at face value. Iraq and WMD comes to mind. And another thought……..Trump really needs this. The scummy racist Deplorables’ll be ejaculating.

  8. Cinny 8
    7 April 2017 at 2:05 pm

    FFS how many ‘sides’ are there in Syria now? Increase our refugee quota pronto.

    Agent Orange has been waiting for an excuse, he was given one the other day with the chemical attack, no matter how that went down he’s using it for leverage.

    Many USA citizens brainwashed by terrorism fear will be all accepting of it, don’t question the military, support our brave troops, blah blah

    Stay the fuck out of this one NZ, or is it already too late?

  9. Sabine 9
    7 April 2017 at 2:08 pm

    ” The airstrikes were carried out less than an hour after the president concluded a dinner with Xi Jinping, the president of China, at his estate in Mar-a-Lago in Florida, sending an unmistakably aggressive message about Mr. Trump’s willingness to use the military power at his disposal.

    Mr. Trump authorized the strike with no congressional approval for the use of force, an assertion of presidential authority that contrasts sharply with the protracted deliberations over the use of force by his predecessor, former President Barack Obama.

    Unlike Mr. Obama, who weighed — and ultimately rejected — the use of a similar strike at targets after Syria used chemical weapons in 2013, Mr. Trump moved with remarkable speed, delivering the punishing military strike barely 72 hours after the devastating chemical attack that killed 80 people this week.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/world/middleeast/us-said-to-weigh-military-responses-to-syrian-chemical-attack.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

    I very much like this bit here : Mr. Trump authorized the strike with no congressional approval for the use of force,

    let that sink in, this was not authorized by congress – congress shall have the power to declare war

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the U.S. Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war. The President, meanwhile, derives the power to direct the military after a Congressional declaration of war from Article II, Section 2, which names the President Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.

    who really still gives a fuck?

    • Maui 9.1
      7 April 2017 at 2:52 pm

      Trump has opened himself up to impeachment by Congress, but will be supported by the Clintonistas. How is the real US economy doing ?

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        7 April 2017 at 4:02 pm

        It matters shit all what the ‘clintonistas’ do, cause a. they not president, b. they not near the white house, c. they don’t hold the Congress nor Senate.

        The presidency is Republican held, unless you want to state that Trump is a closted Clintonista.

        The congress is Republican held, unless you want to call the Republicans and Tea Partier closeted Clintonistas.

        the senate is Republican held, unless you want to call the Republicans and Tea Partier closeted Clintonisas.

        So it fucking matters not one iota what the ‘clintonistas’ would do, cause they ain’t doing shit.

    • Siobhan 9.2
      7 April 2017 at 2:59 pm

      Exactly.
      Hilary was calling for an airstrike earlier…and Trump was happy to oblige.
      Great bedfellows those two.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-hillary-clinton-idUSKBN179058

      • Sabine 9.2.1
        7 April 2017 at 5:05 pm

        So you are saying that Trump is doing what Hillary Clinton says?

        Like really?

        is that like Labour does it too? No matter what Trumps gonna do, you gonna excuse him by saying that should Hillary have won, which she did not cause Trump did, then she would do such and such, and cause Trump is such an impotent fuckwit he will do what Hillary Clinton would do if she’da’won’da’presidency? Like seriously Yeah?

    • shorts 9.3
      7 April 2017 at 3:48 pm

      its been a long time since the US actually declared war on anyone (world war two)… congress can authorise military engagements (last was iraq in 2003)

      They rally are a rogue state – with none of the so called freedom loving countries prepared to reign them in

      McCully has already come out in support of the US attack

      *sigh*

  10. Ad 10
    7 April 2017 at 2:09 pm

    Sick.

    And quite a signal for North Korea.

  11. McFlock 11
    7 April 2017 at 2:18 pm

    Meanwhile, Duterte rattles his sabre in the South China sea.

    I thought the demagogues were going to chill everything the fuck down, geopolitically?

  12. WILD KATIPO 12
    7 April 2017 at 2:59 pm

    I got a sneaking suspicion that this was an agreed on course… an airfield, Russian officials forewarned to move Russian troops from harms way , and for all we know, Syrian personnel moved out of the vicinity as well …

    I got a feeling this was agreed on… as part of US policy on North Korea and pressuring China… the Russians to this day are not that fond of China…

    So ,.. we pander to the narrative and make a big speech and song and dance about it… cite God a few times , make a few people feel better about it… make Assad a lap dog, hold an inquiry after a suitable amount of time… voila ! … discover it wasn’t Assad after all but those no good rebels,… pardon Assad, and put in that oil pipeline…

    Assad likes it because he gets foreign aid packages, royalty’s from a pipeline, backing from both sides to kill off any rebel opposition , Russia likes it because they get to make an oil pipeline , and Trump likes it because he gets to look as if hes taking risks with Russia… and gets rid of those pesky accusations about Russian influence in his being elected….., win / win.

    Oh Well…

  14. esoteric pineapples 14
    7 April 2017 at 3:14 pm

    There goes the only vaguely valid argument the “anyone but Clinton” brigade ever had

    • WILD KATIPO 14.1
      7 April 2017 at 3:24 pm

      Difference is, Clinton was purchasing arms for ISIS through the Clinton Foundation from monies from Saudi Arabia and keeping the USA military industrial complex in clover – Obama could afford to pull back and go softly softly.

      Here we have a USA president who has been accused of collaboration with the Russians to influence his win.

      What better way to resolve that than bombing an empty airfield suspected by the world press of being the starting point for chemical weapons use by Assad… and making it look like Trump is even taking on the Russians ?

      All it took was a prior agreement and a warning to all personnel in the vicinity to evacuate the premises…

      Nope,… the real target of all this is China… as China is the biggest emerging threat to the USA economy… as it is one of ( if not the biggest ) the largest suppliers of credit to the USA.

      And we all know how the USA views North Korea,.. and we all know who is North Korea’s biggest ally, …. China.

      Oh Well…

      • McFlock 14.1.1
        7 April 2017 at 3:26 pm

        lol it takes more than a few hours to empty an airfield. Lots of expensive fixed infrastructure.

        Empty airfield? CF funds to ISIS?

        deary me.

        • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 3:32 pm

          Lets have a look at precisely what sort of ‘ airfield ‘ we are talking about… a few empty warehouses save for the gas pyrotechnics , a rusty old wire mesh fence, a few abandoned gun emplacements, maybe even a few old fighter jets worth less than a few million- peanuts compared to the gains….

          Remember what they used to bring the USA into the first world war?

          The Lusitania.

          Have a read up on that for a bit and the cargo of arms it carried .

          Deary me…

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 3:51 pm

            I bet there wasn’t even a gas attack.

            Hell, the only reason I think there’s a country called Syria is because I first read it in a government supplied textbook!

            • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 4:00 pm

              Were you there witnessing the chemical attacks ?

              Did you witness it?

              Were you there as an intimate to negotiations between all party’s concerned?

              Did you , as an observer even have as much to lose politically as Trump does with accusations of Russian involvement in US elections?

              Have a think.

              • McFlock …
                7 April 2017 at 4:18 pm

                “Thinking”, when taken to the degree of excluding almost all external data, is synonymous with “fantasising”.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  7 April 2017 at 4:43 pm

                  And that’s precisely where you fall into the trap.

                  ‘External data’.

                  Whose ‘ data’ ?

                  Whose ‘ narrative’?

                  See below for further comment.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 April 2017 at 4:52 pm

                    Sigh. Why bother reading more comment that has no information, and denies the possibility of knowing anything.

                    You know what? If, after 40-odd years, I didn’t think I had a rough handle on the different layers of bullshit in the world, I might be an incredulous moron, too.

                    But as it is, experience tells me that although I might be wrong in any specific point, overall I’m in the ballpark more often than not. So I behave accordingly.

                    As it is, I’m getting a bit fucked off with all these victims of what one wag here years ago referred to as “baby’s first cartesian doubt”. Probably just the shitty weather today.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 5:13 pm

                      Go ahead- answer the challenge.

                      As an analogy of how geo political diplomacy works , read up on what was found recently in the Lusitania. Don’t just take my word for it.

                      Read it.

                      And I don’t give a shit if you don’t like Trump btw – mean less than nothing to me. Just do your homework.

                      Work out how these things are organised and put into effect. And have a read about the Balfour Agreement as well.

                      Either that or continue to suck up the narrative of the privately owned MSM major outlets. The choice is yours.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 5:21 pm

                      What challenge have you given me to answer?

                      And if the Balfour Declaration (as it was when I was studying it) gets your knickers in a twist, you’ll fucking love Sykes-Picot.

                      And yet both are hardly at the forefront of anyone’s mind when looking at what troops or bombs they will deploy today…

          • joe90 14.1.1.1.2
            7 April 2017 at 3:57 pm

            Remember what they used to bring the USA into the first world war?

            The Lusitania.

            Congress voted to declare war on Germany on April 6, 1917, two years after the Lusitania sinking.

            • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1.2.1
              7 April 2017 at 4:02 pm

              Have you read what was actually found recently in the hold of the Lusitania?

              Have you?

              • joe90 …
                7 April 2017 at 4:06 pm

                Elvis?.
                /

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  7 April 2017 at 4:14 pm

                  Try again and be serious this time.

                  Doesn’t take a lot of effort to find the truth.

                  Or do you really want to continue to be a MSM sucker? And while your at it – have a wee read on the Balfour agreement as well.

                  Maybe the penny will start to drop.

                  • lprent …
                    7 April 2017 at 5:02 pm

                    Oh FFS. Go and read about the Zimmerman telegram. Second best bit of wartime intelligence work by the British after the enigma machine.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 5:35 pm

                      ‘ The passenger ship Lusitania was carrying munitions when it was sunk by a German submarine in May 1915, documents released by the British Government have revealed. The sinking of the ship with the loss of 1,198 passengers was depicted as an example of German ruthlessness during the First World War.May 2, 2014 ‘

                      Obviously USA produced munitions to supply Britain against Germany. Germany posted warnings against travelling on British bound vessels from the USA – in America.

                      The British knew the sinking of the Lusitania would bring the USA into the war.

                      The Balfour Agreement was conducted primarily by a delegation of European Jews to to ensure the USA entered world war one calling on Jewish financiers from the USA to lobby Congress. That succeeded. The terms of agreement was that after the war was concluded , that a Jewish homeland ( Israel ) was to be created.

                      After the USA entered the war , the salient that Germany held over the allies was withdrawn. Leading to the general feeling of someone ‘selling out ‘ the German war effort.

                      This was backed by the Rothschild’s of England. Funds were withdrawn from Germany from the Rothschild’s and started the inflation which helped to lead to Germany’s defeat and withdrawal.

                      In fact , the Knesset was built entirely by funds from the house of Rothschild from England after the conception of the nation of Israel in 1948 . The Rothschild’s remain patrons of the state of Israel to this day.

                    • dukeofurl …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:59 pm

                      “knew the sinking [1915]of the Lusitania would bring the USA into the war.”

                      If they ‘knew that’ – it didnt work.
                      US entered war in 1917 , 2 years later

                      I reality it was the other way round.
                      “In early 1917, Germany decided to resume all-out submarine warfare on every commercial ship headed toward Britain, realizing that this decision would almost certainly mean war with the U.S”

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 9:09 pm

                      @ dukeofurl

                      ” The Balfour Declaration was a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom’s Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. ”

                      Come again , matey?

                    • lprent []
                      8 April 2017 at 11:16 am

                      It is always fun to educate the profoundly ignorant about the history that they distort.

                      http://www.historyextra.com/article/bbc-history-magazine/telegram-brought-america-first-world-war

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 10:20 pm

                      Oh , … and a few other things to set the record straight and observe a few historical and political agendas…

                      ” The Balfour Declaration was a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom’s Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. It read:

                      ” His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. ”

                      And while there may seem like a 7 month discrepancy in time, the REAL objectives in the continued lobbying of the USA Congress were clear , – sacrifice a few American lives (approx 116,516 ) for the diplomatic promise ( under the League of Nations with the emphasis on Great Britain ) of the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people. (Israel ). To which the Rothschild’s banking family of Europe are still regarded as patrons thereof.

                      History. Such a marvelous teacher.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 2:23 pm

                      ‘ Profoundly distort.’

                      Interesting.

                      So under the threat of the great lprent and his magic finger on the censor button and renowned legendary intolerance to any challenge to his viewpoint , I say prove it.

                      Back it up.

                      As far as I can see both you and McFlock fall into the same category – and the end result is nowhere. Just entrenched prejudice.

                      Here’s an old Beatles track to sum up the mindset.

                      The Beatles – Hello, Goodbye – YouTube

      • red-blooded 14.1.2
        7 April 2017 at 3:59 pm

        “Difference is, Clinton was purchasing arms for ISIS through the Clinton Foundation from monies from Saudi Arabia and keeping the USA military industrial complex in clover”

        Bullshit. While there was some excitement before the US election about the fact that Clinton Foundation had received funds from some sources linked to Qatar and Saudi Arabia which were alleged to be also sending money to ISIS, Clinton was actually using this (slight) link to put pressure on these groups to STOP funding ISIS. Here’s what John Pilger had to say about it (link below):
        “In the email sent on August 17 2014, Ms Clinton asked Mr Podesta, who at that time worked under president Barack Obama, to help put “pressure” on Qatar and Saudi Arabia regarding the countries’ alleged support for the terrorist group Isis.

        “We need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to Isil and other radical Sunni groups in the region,” Ms Clinton wrote.”

        Note too that there were no funds from those sources while Clinton was Sec of State.

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/julian-assange-clinton-foundation-isis-same-money-saudi-arabia-qatar-funding-a7397211.html

      • Liberal Realist 14.1.3
        7 April 2017 at 6:09 pm

        +1
        Perhaps a plan hatched by the CFR, the real power brokers in Washington?

    • mauī 14.2
      7 April 2017 at 3:51 pm

      Nothing was ever going to change under another establishment president, that’s why basically the whole of rural america voted for anything but Hillary. Still a genuine chance things might change with Trump, but this is a big setback.

      • North 14.2.1
        7 April 2017 at 9:06 pm

        Rural America ? Rural America doesn’t give a fuck about anything does it…….except rationalisation of its scandalous racism…….and its need to see pumped up ‘Ugly American’ ? Like doubling down on horrendous mistakes of the past, with hands on hearts and all that shit.

        Setback ? Yeah. But not for The Orange. The Deplorables will come flooding back. Now I see that arsehole talking about “No such child of God……” And bidding God to bless America and the entire world. From the pussy grabber. What ???

        Sick Maui.

  15. mac1 15
    7 April 2017 at 3:32 pm

    So, the US reserves the right unilaterally to punish war crimes anywhere on the globe. A fine global example. Now, who would be safe?

    For starters…….. NZ? The US itself?

    • WILD KATIPO 15.1
      7 April 2017 at 3:38 pm

      LOL !,… it was agreed on prior by all the concerned party’s .

      Its a stage set!

      • mac1 15.1.1
        7 April 2017 at 5:02 pm

        So all the world’s a stage, but it’s not as I like it!

        ” All the world’s a stage,
        And all the men and women merely players;
        They have their exits and their entrances,
        And one man in his time plays many parts……..

        Trump’s got to this part.

        “And then a soldier,
        Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
        Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
        Seeking the bubble reputation
        Even in the cannon’s mouth.”

        Me, I hope to get to the “sans eyes, sans teeth, sans everything” part.

        • WILD KATIPO 15.1.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 9:50 pm

          Jilly jolly spiffy for you , old chap – long may you ‘sans’ on about everything.

          And nothing in particular to boot.

          Bravo !

          Nicely done , old boy !

          • mac1 15.1.1.1.1
            8 April 2017 at 8:25 am

            It’s the thing about poetry. It makes points for which you may to have to search. I thought someone might find a difficulty with a Shakespeare quote, having to tease out the reasons why this quote is apposite to this topic. Poetry is also succinct, as the following explanation will demonstrate.

            First, Wild Katipo, you raised the idea of the ‘stage set’. So the quote may well support what you said. It’s in line with your own imagery.

            What do I take from this quote, and why did I use it? The obscenity that is war is not new. Shakespeare wrote four hundred years ago. Nothing much has changed, except the lethality.

            My description of Trump as the soldier, or wannabe soldier since we know that he avoided war service himself, who seeks to use war as means of enhancing his own reputation, is very arguable and on topic.

            How accurate is the description of Trump and senior military leaders as “jealous in honour, sudden and quick to quarrel?” Trump’s reaction was quick and he is certainly jealous of his honour, bearing no criticism but rattling off tweets like a nervous machine-gunner at night. Yet his part is that of Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful armed force ever seen. not a poor private.

            The quote also says that men and women play many parts in their lives upon this stage. How many parts does Trump, or any of us play, what is our motivation, how true to our own character, how much directed at the audience and the box-office? What role does Trump see himself in?

            Lastly, if your objection is to a bit of erudition, then that’s your problem. You who quite rightly assert that history is a great teacher above!

            Shakespeare is part of our heritage. He wrote things from a very deep understanding of human folly and character. He is insightful, even in this age, as humans don’t essentially change.

            I’m getting to the last stage of Shakespeare’s seven ages of man. One of the blessings of old age they tell me is the beginning of wisdom. But of course no-one listens to old people, since they know nothing and anyway they live in the past and don’t understand the world of today, eh?

            Is it all just ‘sound and fury, signifying nothing’ as you say?

  16. Keith 16
    7 April 2017 at 3:42 pm

    So the US blow something else up in someone elses country and even better in a country torn apart by regimes, including the US blowing things up, same shit different day. Whose the enemy and whose the good guys, I can no longer tell and I assume the poor people of Syria cannot either.

    May have hit and airbase or may have hit something else, who will ever really know? But at least those people killed were was with US made explosive missiles by a US corporation who will chinking the champagne glasses together over those sales. But hey the weren’t killed by gas weapons made by I wonder who.

    • WILD KATIPO 16.1
      7 April 2017 at 3:51 pm

      Well ,… if indeed there were civilian casualties I would suspect it was poison gas products supplied by the Saudi Arabians to ISIS , who as we all know … are SUNNI Muslims as well.

      Who justify the slaughter of SHIITE Muslims and secular Middle Eastern nations . And why ?

      Because THEY believe they are HERETICS !

      And because a Sunni Kingdom could not risk the political advancement of a Shiite minority in their own country ! That’s why !

      And so that’s why it wasn’t Assad at all – if indeed the gas attacks even happened – it was financially backed with chemical weapons from Saudi Arabia in the FIRST PLACE.

      And as we all know – Saudi Arabia is the oil supplier for the USA.

  17. mauī 17
    7 April 2017 at 3:46 pm

    We’ve got our own mini-america foreign policy idiot across the ditch.

    The Trump administration informed the Australian government in advance of its plans to launch the Tomahawk missile attack on Syria, Fairfax Media understands.

    Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull had pointedly said before news of the strikes broke that the chemical attack on civilians “cries out for a strong response”.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malcolm-turnbull-says-syria-chemical-attack-demands-strong-response-as-military-threats-grow-20170406-gvfnqh.html

  18. Psycho Milt 18
    7 April 2017 at 4:05 pm

    I don’t recall this mass outbreak of panic and pacifism when Russia started blowing things up in Syria. Any particular reason it’s an imminent threat of world war if the Americans chuck in a few explosives as well?

    • McFlock 18.1
      7 April 2017 at 4:16 pm

      Well, the Russians blew up the shit they didn’t like to help Assad, and the yanks have blown up the shit the didn’t like in order to try damaging ISIS, but neither has outright intentionally (and with a fuckyou on the side) dropped grade A fucker-people-uppers onto people and places the other people liked.

      The turks shooting down the russian plane caused issues. The yanks might be okay if they avoided hurting any Russians, but it’s a bit foolhardy because the Russians wouldn’t be above leaving their folks in the target zone just to have something to forment a bit of outrage.

      • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1
        7 April 2017 at 4:24 pm

        1) the Turks are allied to the UN/NATO agreement.

        Until such time as they institute the 10 nation pan Arabic / Muslim Caliphate Erdogan has talked about. With Turkey being the seat of that Caliphate.

        Then we will see REAL fireworks.

        2) the Russians want a secure pipeline through Syria to supply European markets.

        3 ) the USA is allied with Saudi Arabia because it is a long term and secure energy source for American industry.

        4 ) whether we like it or not – historically and presently , – ‘ common folk ‘ are expendable to geo political concerns. And always have been .

        And that’s the cold, hard truth of the matter.

        Period.

        • McFlock 18.1.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 4:40 pm

          All true.

          All somewhat irrelevant to the point about why the US deliberately attacking Assad regime bases that might have Russian personnel is an escalation, as opposed to NATO/Jordan bombing ISIS or Assad/Russia bombing other rebels.

          • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 4:50 pm

            You seem to have a severe dislocation to being able to work out the correlations and thus the relationships between the obvious concerned and mutually beneficial party’s involved.

            Have a cup of tea and a biscuit , get past my way of expressing it, draw a deep breath and have a wee think about it.

            • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 5:11 pm

              Or, option b, you want to express something, you get to the fucking point and express it clearly.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                7 April 2017 at 5:20 pm

                Its been done clearly enough already. Up to you to see it.

                After that – the choice is yours.

                I’ve already provided you with ample reasons.

                But carry on with the anti Trump sentiment if you want- lol – just don’t cry about fake news and the evils of the MSM media.

                • McFlock …
                  7 April 2017 at 5:44 pm

                  Its been done clearly enough already. Up to you to see it.

                  In which comment? I must have missed that one where you clearly expressed a coherent thought – although I think I’ve spotted a couple of dogwhistles in your deranged banter.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    7 April 2017 at 6:23 pm

                    ” In which comment? I must have missed that one where you clearly expressed a coherent thought ”

                    ———————————————–

                    In answering a barrage of anti Trump opinions I should imagine it is quite easy for you to have missed an ‘expressed coherent thought’.

                    But that is not my problem. It is yours.

                    If you lack the cognitive ability to follow what I have clearly put out before you , then again, that is your problem, not mine. Rest assured. It is quite coherent and logically set out . And it is all here for you to see. If you can follow a chronological sequence and if you can get past your anti Trump sentiments.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 6:34 pm

                      It’s not my anti-Trump sentiments getting in the way, it’s my lack of patience for pretentious fools who aren’t prepared to clearly put their position in one fell swoop.

                      If you have a point, don’t play hard to get. I don’t have the inclination for that shit, because you’ve done nothing to suggest that you’re worth it.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    7 April 2017 at 6:49 pm

                    Don’t get angry because you haven’t bothered to read what I’ve clearly stated.

                    That’s the first point.

                    The second is I have no particular inclination to have any tit for tat session.

                    I’ve laid it all out clearly enough for you to follow. Its a simple matter of scrolling down the thread. Its that simple.

                    And I would prefer if you followed that line rather than offer these continual knee jerk reactions . Other than that, I would have to prepare a whole essay just for your perusal. I’m sure there are others that have other contributions to make on the subject , however.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 6:57 pm

                      If I need to scroll down throughout a thread, rather than look at one simple and clear comment of yours, then you obviously haven’t clearly stated anything.

                      You don’t need to write an essay, just get to the fucking point. If you’ve stated your point, link to that comment. It’s not difficult.

                      Most other commenters can express quite nuanced opinions within one or two short paragraphs. Perhaps that’s a skill you could develop.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:05 pm

                      Wild Katipo is performing The Dance of The Seven Veils, as interpreted by a slightly overweight middle-aged white man in lycra.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 9:23 pm

                      @ One Anonymous Bloke

                      And ?

                  • Rightly or Wrongly …
                    7 April 2017 at 10:26 pm

                    I suspect WK might be Phil Ure’s cousin? Or perhaps smoking the same strain of electric puha?

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 11:05 pm

                      Nice comment , lovey.

                      Try mixing it with a little bit of substance next time and maybe it’ll be attractive .Til then ,… a fail.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 11:31 pm

                      the punctuation in the comment above suggests you might be right, but I don’t recall ure going on about the “Rothschilds” so much. Although I didn’t read his comments religiously.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 12:33 am

                      The Rothschild’s is used as an analogy and a historical precedent as an example. Particularly in regards to those whose political predisposition is away from Trump.

                      It strikes me as peculiar that those who are quick to lambaste Trump because of their current political persuasions are so strident in denying obvious historical precedents : which ultimately lead to the same mistakes as their predecessors.

                      For me, I am neither hard Left or hard Right.

                      I am more interested in analyzing the motives of all party’s concerned and making sense of it. And to do that, you have to be dispassionate.

                      Rest assured , I am as interested as you might be in the ‘who’ and the ‘ why’s’ ,… if human loss of life is concerned it is an outrage. But , again dispassionately , I believe we must ascertain the possible motives to find the culprits.This is why I labored on the Rothschild’s as an historical precedent.To demonstrate that the ‘conspiracy theory’ to which we have been conditioned to reject and mock may in fact hold more truth than we are willing to accept at face value.

                      Fake news I cite as a modern example.

                      There have been so many examples of political skulduggery over so many hundreds of years. If we fail to heed past precedents , we go forward into the future at our peril. And as one who is blind.

                      That is why I gave the example of the Rothschild’s and their world influence in the 20th and 21rst century’s. Simply as examples.

                      Peace

                      🙂

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 1:33 am

                      Oh , and one last trick,… fresh from TDB site , this song from Johnny Cash , last time on TDB was ‘ Sooner or later Gods gonna cut you down’,… well this time it was ‘ The Man comes around’…

                      Cash speaks where others don’t to me…so I apologise for being a bit terse to you all at times in an unapologetic sort of way…

                      Johnny Cash-The_Man_Comes Around – YouTube

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 12:49 pm

                      Oh, it’s an “analogy” for “the culprits” now is it?

                      Truth be told, I’d already guessed that /sarc

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 1:57 pm

                      ” Oh, it’s an “analogy” for “the culprits” now is it?

                      Truth be told, I’d already guessed that /sarc”

                      Im not going to take on board your hurt feelings or frustrations at not being able to see what most can see when Ive made a statement. And as Ive said, go do some research into those areas offered and educate yourself so at least your in the loop of whats been pointed out.

                      Draw your own conclusions.

                      But whatever you do , please do not carry on like a butthurt newbie with a point to prove. Not a good look.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 2:34 pm

                      The conclusion I’ve drawn is that you’re not just a conspiracy nutter, you’re a cowardly bigot whose says “Rothschilds” when you really want to target an entire cultural group.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 4:30 pm

                      McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 2:34 pm
                      ” The conclusion I’ve drawn is that you’re not just a conspiracy nutter, you’re a cowardly bigot whose says “Rothschilds” when you really want to target an entire cultural group.”

                      So now ,… you , – because your butthurt and want to practice the same sort of distraction / diversion as the trolls you censor – want to accuse me of A ) racism, B ) Bigotry , and C ) and a ‘ conspiracy nutter’.

                      You are new.

                      Very new.

                      If,… you had gone back and viewed my original comments and done some of your own research instead of relying on me having to hand feed you every scrap of information instead of trying to fall back into diversion , personal accusations and groundless assertions , you might just have seen the original point I was trying to make.

                      However, it is obvious that as soon as your precious Democrat idol Clinton was castigated and outed as a liar it was then that the abuse hurling from you started. Which leads me to believe I am dealing with a new, politically naive dullard that is more interested in identifying with a movement and scoring brownie points than being objective and seeing reality for what it is.

                      This is getting tiresome.

                      I care not for who says they are ‘ Left ‘ or ‘ Right’.

                      I only care about finding the truth. And that truth isn’t to be found buried under layers of biased tribalism or sycophantic political slavish adherence such as the standard that you have demonstrated and tried to pass off as balanced logic.

                      Please do not bother to reply as this is not only becoming wearisome , – but making you look even more desperate as time goes by.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 10:02 pm

                      You care about the truth?

                      You could have also mentioned Hearst.
                      JP Morgan.
                      Zaharoff.
                      Vickers.
                      Carnegie.
                      Dozens of others.

                      But no, you fixated on the Rothschilds.

                      It’s not a diversion to point that out because it’s an indication of the sort of sites that youprobably get your information from. Information you yourself haven’t bothered to support.

                      I might look desperate, but you look to me like you’re spouting racist bullshit.

      • Psycho Milt 18.1.2
        7 April 2017 at 4:35 pm

        That’s the thing, though – the Turks deliberately shot down a Russian aircraft, and the world is yet to be engulfed in military conflict. Putin’s not going to be chuffed about this, but he wasn’t chuffed about having his fighter jet shot down either. Now, if it were to turn out that the Russian air force had dropped the gas canisters and Trump were to hit their base with 60 cruise missiles, then it would be time to shit yourself and start stockpiling food.

        • McFlock 18.1.2.1
          7 April 2017 at 4:46 pm

          Fair point, I’m not digging a bunker just yet.
          But it just depends on how much cause Putin has to not be chuffed at all – and much of that is down to luck rather than planning, I fear.

        • WILD KATIPO 18.1.2.2
          7 April 2017 at 4:58 pm

          @ Psycho Milt

          What did President Trump say about NATO country’s again?… that they would have to finance their own military security exercises against the bogeyman …. Russia???

          Trumps been amiable with Putin.

          Putin wants to supply Europe with an oil pipeline.

          Putin is part of the Bric nations.

          West Europe hate the Bric nations.

          Why?

          Because the Bric nations become independent from the City of London Usury system. The Rothschild’s system. Something that Trump hates also . The Reserve Bank of America is a private bank owned by the Rothschild’s of Europe – in particular the City of London Rothschild’s Group.

          And Turkey – even though Erdogan hasn’t yet consolidated the 10 nation Caliphate as of yet – is still allied to Nato.

          • McFlock 18.1.2.2.1
            7 April 2017 at 5:17 pm

            The Reserve Bank of America is a private bank owned by the Rothschild’s of Europe

            [citation needed]

            • WILD KATIPO 18.1.2.2.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 5:21 pm

              Do your research. Its a commonly known fact.

              • McFlock …
                7 April 2017 at 6:28 pm

                Doesn’t mention the Rothschilds at all

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  7 April 2017 at 6:36 pm

                  No but it does show that it’s owned by the private banks some of which are most definitely owned by the Rothschild’s.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 April 2017 at 6:47 pm

                    so “The Reserve Bank of America is a private bank owned by the Rothschild’s of Europe” in the same way that “the Cooperative Bank is a private bank owned by my beneficiary mate in South Dunedin”.

                    How much of the Federal Reserve do the Rothschilds allegedly own? 1%? 5%? 95%?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 April 2017 at 6:59 pm

                      …and why do they get singled out?

                      Why oh why?

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:03 pm

                      Every dollar that the USA borrows is paid back in interest to the Rothschild’s banking Group- ‘ The City of London Square Mile ‘ – . If I recollect , it was Andrew Jackson’s Presidency that was the only time that the USA was truly debt free.

                      That was because he basically commanded the USA Treasury to mint their own coinage / dollars – thus escaping the European banking / usury system that had bound the Monarchies of Europe.

                      It was the 1913 Federal Reserve Act passed under Woodrow Wilson ( while most of Congress was away on the Christmas break ) that brought the Federal Reserve Bank into being.

                      Wilson later expressed his regrets that he had done this and had ‘sold the American people out to European interest’s’…

                      ( I think it was Andrew Jackson from memory . Wouldn’t take much to clarify, however . )

                      Peace.

                      🙂

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:05 pm

                      Every dollar that the USA borrows is paid back in interest to the Rothschild’s banking Group

                      Every dollar? Really? Are you asserting that the Rothschilds own 100% of every bank that has shares in the Federal Reserve?

                      Be clear. Is that what you are claiming: that the Rothschilds and nobody else own the entire Federal Reserve?

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 7:54 pm

                      I assume you have read the article provided by Draco.

                      Lets be blunt. If you want to find precise figures , inquire in your own time. Otherwise, nitpick on.

                      And please do not think that this is some kind of victory for you , for it is Pyrrhic in nature. But , … if your hatred for Trump and need for identification with the so called ‘ left’ and thus the Clinton’ s and Democrats in American politics is so strong, – by all means – keep to the illusions of political purity.

                      However ,… here’s an interesting fact :

                      General George Armstrong Custer was a Democrat.

                      Talk to the Lakota Sioux or Northern Cheyenne to see if they would agree that supporting the Democrats was all it was cracked up to be in a historical sense.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 April 2017 at 8:21 pm

                      So just to recap, the sole evidence you’re going to rest on to support your claims that not only do the Rothschilds own some of the federal reserve, they get every dollar, with interest, of US national debt is a link from draco that doesn’t demonstrate that the Rothschilds own any of the Fed?

                      Your logic behind the Rothschilds controlling the US economy is “the fed is owned by some banks, the Rothschilds own some banks, therefore the Rothschilds own the fed”.

                      You’re some deep thinker there, fucko

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      7 April 2017 at 8:39 pm

                      Nice abuse.

                      However, if you are indeed the deep thinker you claim I am not then I would charge you to do your own research. Patently you have not. What you have demonstrated is a desperate clinging to a line of thought to win at all costs.

                      Fine. Carry on.

                      I would have at least thought you had bothered to conduct your own research. You haven’t. Obviously. I am not here to hold your hand. You have been provided with ample data and suggestions to conduct your own fact finding. Instead you would rather hurl abuse.

                      The only problem I have with that attitude is that it is prey to the same kind of thinking that justified John Key and his denials of NZ being a tax haven. Same principal.

                      Do some research and be a little less interested in points scoring than in finding some facts. I trust you are intelligent, prove it. Do some research of your own. As I said, I am not here to hold your hand and spend all day providng linkages for someone who seems more than capable of doing it for themselves.

                      Or,… in a very blunt term of phrase – fuck off, get off your voluminous ass and look it up for yourself instead of being some lazy internet prat who just wants to win brownie points.

                      Peace.

                      🙂

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 12:41 pm

                      you make the assertion, you support it. If I researched every stupid statement made by a closet racist who was too cowardly to come out with it up front, I’d have an uncredited phd.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      8 April 2017 at 1:52 pm

                      ” if I researched every stupid statement made by a closet racist who was too cowardly to come out with it up front, I’d have an uncredited phd.”

                      Nice abuse.

                      Seems that’s your default position. Do some work.

                      Its been laid out quite clearly , and only you seem to be having the problem here.

                      And having to repeat the same thing over and over gets tedious. Go and do some research. Ive got better things to do than try and jolly along a slow learner hour after hour.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 April 2017 at 2:28 pm

                      Here’s a list of the largest banks in the US.
                      They’d all be members of the fed, no?

                      How many are owned by the Rothschilds?

      • weka 18.1.3
        7 April 2017 at 9:43 pm

        “but it’s a bit foolhardy because the Russians wouldn’t be above leaving their folks in the target zone just to have something to forment a bit of outrage.”

        To what end?

        • McFlock 18.1.3.1
          7 April 2017 at 9:55 pm

          Putin’s got an election next year and has economic issues. Also recent protests in Russia.

          But then I’m a cynic who thinks putin’s had journailsts and opponents murdered.

          • weka 18.1.3.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 11:03 pm

            oh, you meant outrage from Russians back home? So similar shit as Tr*mp then.

            • McFlock 18.1.3.1.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 11:28 pm

              Yeah I reckon it’s just the stage of the election cycle Russia’s in. Geopolitics still a serious consideration, but the other spinning plate is Russian domestic politics.

              Whereas Trump has had the election, and I think there’s a bit of a pivot going there: Bannon’s been kicked back off the NSC and a day or two later trump fires missiles at Assad’s Syria. That all could be the result of considered contemplation of expert advice from a number of expert sources, or it could just be the South Park school of presidential manipulation.

              • weka …
                7 April 2017 at 11:48 pm

                I didn’t know that about Bannon (haven’t been following much of the US stuff recently). So less Team Armageddon and more neocon BAU?

                • McFlock …
                  8 April 2017 at 12:05 am

                  Dunno about neocon BAU yet.

                  The fact that they’re launching means the hawks are on the upper over the pro-russians, as well as the diplomacists who stopped Obama doing it a few years back.

                  But I think the neocons were more about american geopolitical dominance and kicking the proceeds of that to the 1%ers, or at least kicking the US treasury to the 1%ers. I don’t get the same sense of a coherent plan from the current lot yet.

    • WILD KATIPO 18.2
      7 April 2017 at 4:19 pm

      @ Psycho Milt

      And thank you as well.

      Major point right there.

      Well done!

    • mauī 18.3
      7 April 2017 at 4:51 pm

      It’s not like the US haven’t fucked up other countries in the past eh? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, etc. Say if New Zealand was under insurgent attack you bet we would be calling on Russia for military support if they were one of our strongest allies. Russia was invited in by the democratically elected Syrian government and helped push back terrorists. America invites itself in only for terrorists to benefit.

  19. adam 19
    7 April 2017 at 5:27 pm

    *Sigh*

    Evil is beaten by evil, and other absurdities are on display today.

    The USA has once again demonstrated why it has given up on Christianity. Why they have given up on a message of love. Why Christians everywhere should be weary of a state out of control, acting out the darker perversions from the Old Testament.

    Luke 6:35

    35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

  20. Sanctuary 20
    7 April 2017 at 5:37 pm

    Even seasoned cynics who watched the the cynical flim flam from the Russians at the U.N. defending Assad over this would have blanched, and that it was followed by a bit of equally cynical All-American theatre from the USA would have been the cherry on top of that particular grotesque charade of a debate.

    Occam’s razor informs me that Trump’s 180 on Syria is amateur foreign policy by an emotionally driven amateur president. Bluntly, Trump was horrified by the images of the chemical attack and he has done what most people would do if they had the means when presented with pictures of children killed by nerve gas – he lashed out to try and punish the evil doers.

    Whether or not doing the human thing and seeking to be the fist of righteous retaliation against people who don’t hesitate to use chemical warfare against their own defenseless woman and children is good diplomacy is I guess a matter of taste as much as anything.

    Personally, I think allowing your emotions to rule your head is a profoundly and selfishly irresponsible thing to do when you are president of the United States.

    • McFlock 20.1
      7 April 2017 at 5:51 pm

      True, but I guess at least he’s not a complete sociopath if your suspicions are correct.

      Silver linings, eh…

    • WILD KATIPO 20.2
      7 April 2017 at 6:03 pm

      Dont even think its that.

      Again.

      The USA favors Saudi Arabia because it is its major energy supplier.

      Saudi Arabia is SUNNI Muslim.

      ISIS is Sunni Muslim.

      Assad is a secular leader.

      Sunni Muslims believe secular govt’s are INFIDEL govt’s, and Shiite Muslims are HERETICS.

      Saudi Arabia could ill afford a growing Shiite or secular presence opposing them in governance.

      Trump was accused of Russian interference of US elections.

      Saudis have been accused in the past of supplying chemical weapons against Assad.

      Clinton was found to have been using the Clinton Foundation to purchase arms for ISIS from monies from Qatar, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

      Obama was reticent to oppose ISIS meaningfully. And let the Russians back Assad unchecked.

      Trump has opposed North Korea.

      Trump has wined and dined the President of China .

      Trump then attacked a vacant airbase in Syria to demonstrate his willingness to conduct war with North Korea in the presence of the President of China.

      USA Congress has backed military ‘sabre rattling ‘ in the South China sea.

      This whole thing has been an exercise in geopolitics and nothing more. To impress upon China that the USA means business regards USA hegemony in the South China seas. And the cost ? … a worn out airfield in Syria with the proviso that both Russian and Syrian personnel were well clear of any air strikes conducted by US bombers.

      • Skeptic 20.2.1
        7 April 2017 at 7:05 pm

        Hey WK – I think you might wanna cool it a little mate. Some of you comments are waaaay over the top. I also think many of your assertions should have citations.

        eg “The USA favors Saudi Arabia because it is its major energy supplier.
        Saudi Arabia is SUNNI Muslim.
        ISIS is Sunni Muslim.
        Assad is a secular leader.
        Sunni Muslims believe secular govt’s are INFIDEL govt’s, and Shiite Muslims are HERETICS.
        Saudi Arabia could ill afford a growing Shiite or secular presence opposing them in governance.”

        The broad brush linkage here is tenuous at best without specific citations – for instance the term “Sunni” is like “Protestant” and as we all know there are a myriad of views within both definitions.

        Also – “The Reserve Bank of America is a private bank owned by the Rothschild’s of Europe – in particular the City of London Rothschild’s Group.”

        This sounds and is something that’s almost a direct quote from Hal Lindsay’s extreme right “Late Great Planet Earth” and the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” forgery.

        As this is a left-wing website, any right-wing – especially extreme right-wing – utterances are and will be treated with disdain.

        My advice – watch your facts and keep them very, very separate from opinions.

        Back to the point of the article – Why Trump has elected to launch Tomahawks now when Obama didn’t. The answer is contained in the political theory of “realpolitik”. Different timing – different circumstances, different relationships, different threat/perceived threats, any combination of these and other factors, PLUS advice given/rejected/accepted by experts/agencies etc.

        While we might speculate as to reasons, we can only estimate as to consequences – my guess is the Russians will huff and puff but will wear it on the chin – the US military is far, far too powerful for Russia to even consider taking on. This may well be an indirect warning to Trump’s visitor from China, both as to what might be in store for North Korea and China itself if she doesn’t pull her head in over the South China Sea issues.
        If I were the fat boy leading “the world’s most secretive state”, I’d be shitting bricks by now, because Trump just issued a real big warning. He’d do well to remember Trump has THAAD, stealth, JDAMS, JSOWS and WD80s up his sleeve.

        • WILD KATIPO 20.2.1.1
          7 April 2017 at 8:15 pm

          Nah mate…

          “The USA favors Saudi Arabia because it is its major energy supplier.
          Saudi Arabia is SUNNI Muslim.
          ISIS is Sunni Muslim.
          Assad is a secular leader.
          Sunni Muslims believe secular govt’s are INFIDEL govt’s, and Shiite Muslims are HERETICS.
          Saudi Arabia could ill afford a growing Shiite or secular presence opposing them in governance.”

          Facts are the facts,… brutal to your ears or not.

          Example :

          You take your shoes off on entering a Marae because

          A) the Wahine cant be bothered to sweep up after you ?

          Or

          B ) its a sign of respect?

          It would behoove you to choose the latter.

          Why ?… not only it is having respect for that culture , – it is also because there are protocols to be followed. No different from recognizing the difference between Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims. Or Catholic tradition and Protestant traditions.

          They are intrinsically different in their religious / cultural observations.

          NOW : introduce the concept of both POWER and MONEY.

          If you have ears to listen you will see how the above can have an immediate influence on how the above cultural values can be easily overridden. Similar to how neo liberalism has overridden western democracy’s. Same principle, –
          different mechanisms employed.

          Do I need to remind you of Bastion Point?

          As for the rest of what I have said in this post , – like McFlock , – I advise you also to scroll down the thread and see the full intent of my comments.

          • Skeptic 20.2.1.1.1
            7 April 2017 at 8:45 pm

            All of which has precious little to do with Trump’s decision to launch Tomahawks and with possible consequences. I don’t think Trump gave a toss about Sunni/Shiite differences. Maori protocols have bugger all to do with the topic in question as well. Nor do power & money or cultural values have anything to do with the article either.

            That was my point and – well – congratulations – you’ve proved it.

            In about 18 months or so, we’ll now what the relevant decision factors were, (they’ll be “leaked” as per usual) so our speculation in a tiny country at the other end of the Earth is kinda mindless? Yeah? That’s why I suggested you cool it – it was kinda embarrassing.

            • WILD KATIPO 20.2.1.1.1.1
              7 April 2017 at 9:38 pm

              Problem is, you deny cultural values and the influence of geo political aspects all in one fowl stroke. Simplistic thinking .

              You – like so many others – fail to see any correlations. So , for you ,… it gets down to what you see in front of you rather than what you can perceive, No wonder the MSM is so successful. You can neither absorb general principles of historic note nor discern its practice in modern terms.

              You seem to be focused on the immediate emotive visual aspects of pictures of small children being gassed or dramatic story’s of airfields being bombed . Now whether that happened or not Ill leave that for you to decide. Pick a side.

              As to the motives and who actually did it, I would prefer a more analytical approach. Such as – ask yourself – who gains from this sort of incident?

              And why?

              Who could possibly benefit ?

              Thus far not many have even attempted to answer that – including yourself – just a knee jerk reactionary motion of a collective ‘ we hate Donald Trump ‘ because,… because we just do !!! ”

              Try again, please.

              • Skeptic …
                8 April 2017 at 12:49 pm

                Sorry Wk , but I haven’t denied any values, cultural or otherwise. Incidentally, it’s “fell swoop”, not “fowl (as in chicken) stroke”. And there’s nothing at all simple about the Syrian situation – it’s probably the most complex situation anywhere right now.
                As for correlations and historical perspective – well let’s just say that as an MA with a history minor and a strong ME content, you so far off beam your comment about blind acceptance of MSM is ludicrous in the extreme.
                Sorry – haven’t seen the pictures other than what’s been shoveled on the idiot box, but have read widely on the complexities of Syria, WMD and US politics in the ME.
                So, your question about “qui bono” is very much at the heart of this debate – so well done for correct identification of the problem. Now, break it down – short term benefits, long term goals and intermediate aims. When you’ve got some answers to those questions we’ll have a semi-literate hypothesis. When the full story come out – and this is usually, but not always, in 18 months time, we can test the hypothesis against the facts, thereby increasing our overall knowledge.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.3
      7 April 2017 at 6:12 pm

      Obama walked away from his “red line”: this action has been in the tool-box for a while.

    • Morrissey 20.4
      7 April 2017 at 8:21 pm

      A deep-thinking moral giant calling itself “Sanctuary” has been enthusing about the most recent case of American selective morality.

      Perhaps “Sanctuary” can inform us when we should bomb Israel? Now? Tomorrow?

      Unlike the case with Syria, there is not the slightest doubt about that evil regime’s systematic use of chemical weapons on the trapped enclave of Gaza.

  22. Psycho Milt 22
    7 April 2017 at 6:28 pm

    On the plus side, I’m so going to enjoy seeing the Russian ambassador complaining to the Security Council about this terrible crime against the Syrian people, only to have any prospect of a resolution dashed by a US veto…

    • WILD KATIPO 22.1
      7 April 2017 at 7:36 pm

      Ah , but it wont get that far ,… at least … behind closed doors. The fake news will still be the fake news, … and we as the plebiscites will still be enraged and encouraged to take sides… cannon fodder as we are and always have been …

      But to those important – or deemed important … the charade and the games will go on.

      No matter how many 3 year old children die.

      It is all about power.

      And that power backed up by those who have the financial clout to make certain events appear to ‘happen’.

      And the rest of the world as we know it will follow on blindly , adsorbing the narrative and becoming enraged and going to fight a war that was only ever conceived by those who had the finance and the means to stage the event as planned… with its premeditated outcome…

      Like the wolves , we are pack ‘animals’ ,… needing a sense of hierarchy and leadership, … and so we follow on … the difference is, … wolves don’t destroy each other in wholesale terms to achieve their objectives , nor to do they destroy the environment to prove a point. No wonder the Native Americans called them their ‘ teachers’…

      The Hidden Life of Wolves | National Geographic – YouTube
      Video for wolves pack hierarchy youtube▶ 2:35

    • Morrissey 22.2
      7 April 2017 at 8:26 pm

      ???

      Russia has been fighting ISIS in Syria. The United States has supported ISIS in Syria. Your kind of “enjoyment” is possible only for the most depraved and poorly informed “consumers” of virtually unaltered State Department talking points masquerading as news.

      No doubt you’re fully on board with Trump’s call for “civilized nations” to support his bombing runs.

  23. ropata 23
    7 April 2017 at 7:07 pm

    Trump nails it (back in 2013)

    Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III.— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 31, 2013

  24. WILD KATIPO 24
    7 April 2017 at 8:24 pm

    Probably ,… or we could say those who wish to deflect an issue under pressure of accusations.

    We ( supposedly ) no longer live under McCarthyism or Reaganism and the former USSR is broken up and part of the so called modern global economy.

    Why is it so hard then to not see collaboration in geopolitical politics?

    Are we still stuck in the age of ‘ them’ against ‘ us’ ?

    Back to the 1950’s ?

    Is it so hard to see and extricate ourselves from modern MSM narratives to see that those old rules no longer apply and that there has indeed been agreement among those with a shared interest of the global pie?

  25. Paul Campbell 25
    7 April 2017 at 10:12 pm

    Sigh – War Again

  26. Paul Campbell 26
    7 April 2017 at 10:19 pm

    what’s it good for

  27. Antoine 27
    7 April 2017 at 11:19 pm

    Standard authors might like to have a think about whether this is the most useful way to title and tagline a post

    [Can’t see anything wrong with the tags, but I wasn’t that keen on the title either. However there are ways to express that, and telling authors what to do isn’t one of them. Please read the Policy. – weka]

  28. Tui 28
    8 April 2017 at 9:50 pm

    frump wants to start a war so he can profit selling tomahawk missiles!

    ~ Tui

  29. Fly OnTheWall 29
    13 April 2017 at 9:13 pm

    This country, that country … come on you guys, we all know who the bad guys are … and they’re not limited to any country. They own ALL of our asses. We got lazy, busy, blah blah blah … and fell asleep at the wheel. This is just a well-planned, perfectly orchestrated shit show to keep our dumb asses entertained until the pedo inbred bankers get their bunkers stocked with enough Glenfiddich & kiddy prostitutes to last ’em a few years.

    In fact, I’m convinced Kim Jong isn’t even real. He’s some random chubby Asian dude morphed by some $12/hr NSA employee in Photoshop & easily subbed by extras. It’s easy to control people when you have CCTV cameras on every street corner & every vile text message, porn movie and/or disgusting thing they’ve done on film since they were twelve. Doesn’t take a fucking rocket scientist to figure that shit out.

    Anyone who still believes that political parties, Trump v. Hillary, black v. white, Muslim v. Christian, ANY war EVER … needs a serious time out.

    Seriously here … we’ve been force fed propaganda since birth, it’s pretty much ALL bullshit. Nobody at fault here, it just is what it is. Make peace with it, and what’s next. Encourage others to do so too. Squabbling over these fuckers (ie. Trump, Hillary, Libtards, neo-Nazis – whatever flava of the day corp-owned media comes up with… yada fucking yada) is a fucking waste of time.

    Best use of our time is to share the truth with people you care for, do what you can do, accept what you cannot. Make peace with those you deem worthy (including YOURSELF) … on a daily basis. And breathe. Everything else is optional based on the pair of glasses you choose to wear that day.

    For whatever it’s worth, my 2 cents. Wait … maybe I should rephrase that …

    God bless you all my brothers & sisters. Don’t worry, it’s gonna be OK. It’s all gonna be OK.