Bad poll but not for CGT

Written By: - Date published: 6:29 am, July 18th, 2011 - 138 comments
Categories: capital gains, labour, phil goff, polls - Tags: ,

The latest ONE News / Colmar Brunton poll is bad for Labour, down 7 to  27% , while the Nats are up 1 to 53%.  We’ve seen Labour bouncing around in other polls, so time will tell if this is a rogue, or a genuine drop in support.

One thing that the poll isn’t is a verdict on is Labour’s CGT policy. The excitable Mr Espiner asks “Has Labour’s ‘bold game-changer’ backfired?” (video link).  Espiner notes that the polling period ended last week before Labour’s official announcement of the policy, but still tries to spin the poll drop as a reaction to the pre-announcement speculation about the leaked details.

Only two problems with that line. (1) Before the official announcement the discussion was mostly within the “beltway” of those who follow politics in detail, unlikely to be reflected (especially so quickly) in a general poll. (2) The majority of the lost Labour vote has gone to the Greens.  If it was a protest against CGT, why would that protest vote move to the Greens, who are long term proponents of CGT?  Makes no sense.

CGT is supported by almost every credible economic commentator and Bill English.  CGT will be a vote winner for Labour, if they can get the message that it is better for the overwhelming majority through to the public.  It’s better because it pays for a tax free $5000 of income, it pays for GST of fresh food, it lets us keep our own assets (and the income stream that they generate), it’s better because it redirects investment to more productive options than housing bubbles. Continuing two weeks of good coverage for Labour on CGT, on Saturday John Armstrong wrote:

Chalk this one up as something of a triumph for Phil Goff. So far, at least. … Goff has for the first time – and at the right time – tactically outmanoeuvred John Key and National.  It is hard to envisage how Goff could have handled the very difficult politics that inevitably flow from promoting such a complex and contentious tax any better than he has done.

…  National has found it extremely difficult to land a substantial hit on Labour. It has found it difficult because Labour has anticipated where National’s attacks would be directed and moved to smother them in advance. …

National concedes that Labour’s promotion of the tax was always going to get the tick of approval from some economists, think tanks and academics.  National did not count on that endorsement being so strong. The endorsement has come from across the political spectrum, thereby making Goff’s push for the tax look less political and motivated more by what might be in the national interest. …

What the policy has definitely done is revitalise Goff. He is suddenly making the running.  Labour might not yet win the war over a capital gains tax. Goff sure as heck has won the early battles. The question is whether he can keep doing so.

So in short yes the current poll is bad for Labour, and not great for the Left.  But it doesn’t tell us anything about the impact of Labour’s move on CGT.  Jenny points out in comments that this poll will make an interesting baseline for gauging reaction in future polls. But only the election will give us a verdict.

Update: Apparently the undecided in this poll was 14%. That is rather relevant polling information – I wonder why it was left out? [lprent] hat-tip bomber

138 comments on “Bad poll but not for CGT ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. r0b 1
    10 July 2011 at 10:02 am

    ‘The left-wing blog The Standard, used for strategic public relations by the Labour Party, was a major offender and a victim of the trend to squash opposing views.’

    “Some academic” is dead wrong twice. So it goes.

  2. Secret Squirrel 2
    18 July 2011 at 7:04 am

    If it was a protest against CGT, why would that protest vote move to the Greens, who are long term proponents of CGT? Makes no sense.

    It could be a protest against how Labour introduced the CGT.
    It could be a sign of distrust of Labour implementing a new tax.
    It could be because of the holey version Labour was leaking.
    It could be because people know the Greens can’t implement a CGT, it would need a major party.
    It could be that people don’t like the “all rich people and property investors and farmers are bad, tax them more” approach.

    CGT is supported by almost every credible economic commentator and Bill English.

    In some form, to a degree, maybe, but that’s overstated. Gareth Morgan is often touted as an example of a supporter, but he doesn’t support Labour’s version.

    Maybe the public have no faith in Labour implementing a new tax without it being just another way to get more tax. That is one of the biggest worries, and it’s hard to see how Labour can overcome that without a major makeover.

    • Deadly_NZ 2.1
      18 July 2011 at 7:39 am

      And the poll closed they day BEFORE the CGT was announced. So all the pollees had to go on was KY, Blinglishes hysterical bleating about the sky falling in and The DAGGER through the economy. I was waiting for KY to burst into tears and cry for his mommy.

      • Secret Squirrel 2.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 8:33 am

        The pollees also went on Labour dribbling out poicy in advance. It may have seemed clever at the time, but the pollees may have had enough of cynical manipulation.

        By not being up front from the start on CGT Labour have risked leaving people wondering what else they haven’t been up front about. Most people may not care about policy detail but they care about been stuffed around.

        The poll result may be bad for CGT – if Labour’s CGT dies with their election chances it won’t encourage any major party to propose it. Especialy in an election year.

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 8:54 am

          Labour’s CGT launch was smart and dominated the news media for almost 2 weeks. And its still going. Damn fine job Labour, did you see English and Key in a total spin mixing up lines 😀

          SS you really are an ACT suck up

          • Secret Squirrel 2.1.1.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 8:57 am

            Damn fine job Labour = 27% – yeah, right.

          • Gosman 2.1.1.1.2
            18 July 2011 at 9:32 am

            But that dribbling out of the news by Labour puts the lie to the claim that the poll doesn’t reflect the CGT policy as it was done before the launch. As you point out CV the media had been discussing the CGT plans for a good two weeks, much of which was in the polling period. You have to ask yourself why support for Labour fell, (above the margin of error).

          • Alwyn 2.1.1.1.3
            18 July 2011 at 9:48 am

            I suppose I could point out that the Watergate hearings and the impeachment trial of Richard Nixon dominated the US, and NZ press for months.
            I suppose that makes them a triumph for Tricky Dickie by your reasoning.
            The fatal error for Labour is likely to be Trevor’s statement that Labour people shouldn’t talk about the facts of the proposal. The problem is that they don’t appear to understand the proposal at all. If you cannot tell me what is meant to happen in a particular circumstance it only appears to be one of two things.
            1. You don’t know.
            2. You do know but you don’t want me to find out.
            Sorry this is a generic “you”. It’s not meant to be you personally as the Speaker would point out.

          • SHG 2.1.1.1.4
            18 July 2011 at 11:45 am

            Labour’s CGT launch was smart and dominated the news media for almost 2 weeks. And its still going. Damn fine job Labour

            I see the News of the World messagebank-hacking scandal is still dominating the English news media. Rupert Murdoch must be thrilled. Because dominating the media is totally the same as people liking you and supporting your policies.

            • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.4.1
              18 July 2011 at 12:01 pm

              🙂

              Yeah and there’s more to come on the News International scandal (its far bigger than the NOTW now).

              By the way, plenty more big announcements from LAB coming up 🙂

              • SHG …
                18 July 2011 at 6:41 pm

                No-one will notice, because now everyone’s talking about Labour and Goff’s disastrous polling results.

                But that’s OK, because dominating the news media is good, right?

    • Vicky32 2.2
      18 July 2011 at 6:18 pm

      Maybe the public have no faith in Labour implementing a new tax without it being just another way to get more tax. That is one of the biggest worries, and it’s hard to see how Labour can overcome that without a major makeover.

      Is this why Mathew Hooton used term ‘envy tax’ on Nine To Noon this morning? Why did Ryan let him get away with it?

  3. Bored 3
    18 July 2011 at 7:26 am

    Quite frankly th Polls are crap, the only thing that counts is the real poll, and whether south and west Auckland turn out to vote. The way the MSM in particular Espner and the young prat at TV3 present things disgusts me. Will somebody please change their nappies and dry them behind the ears.

    • Deadly_NZ 3.1
      18 July 2011 at 7:36 am

      And Petra Baggy is no better on TV1, I only flicked over to hear KY’s lies before he buggers off on yet another tax payer funded photo op.

    • Gosman 3.2
      18 July 2011 at 8:56 am

      I’d agree that polls are an imperfect way of gauging public opinion but it is not correct to say they are “crap”. If they were then the major political parties wouldn’t involve polling agencies to try and work out what impact policies will likely have on the election chances.

      I have yet to see any major Labour Party Politician complaining about the accuracy of the polls. Surely if they were as way out as you suggest they might be, (20 percent plus gap between Labour and National is huge by any standard), you would have some senior member bringing this statistical abhorence up in the media.

      • Bored 3.2.1
        18 July 2011 at 9:16 am

        Gos, read Bomber below, he answers the question for me.

        • Gosman 3.2.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 10:19 am

          Mr Bradbury has failed to address the question of why, if Polls are so appallingly inaccurate, Labour Party Politicians aren’t complaining about this in the media.

          • Bored 3.2.1.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 10:40 am

            True he does not answer that: its actually a bloody dumb question. It would be stupid for any politician to ask it except from a position of strength. And it is bloody stupid of you to think they would..

            • Gosman 3.2.1.1.1.1
              18 July 2011 at 10:44 am

              No it’s not. If the polls are as inaccurate as Mr Bradbury, and by extension you, think they are then it would be a stupid politician not to raise the issue.

              Bad polls tend to be self reinforcing. If the public perceive a Politician or Party as being unpopular they don’t tend to take them as seriously as they might otherwise.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.1.1.1.2
              18 July 2011 at 12:09 pm

              Bad polls tend to be self reinforcing

              Now this is a detail that is very true and which the Right Wing establishment use very well.

      • bbfloyd 3.2.2
        18 July 2011 at 11:49 am

        you know better than that goss… the labour party knows what kind of beast the msm is… if they complained about coverage, then the msm would round on them in exactly the same way they always do when their accuracy/competence/ balance is questioned. with even more bullshit.. wall to wall muckraking and innuendo.. consider that every item about phil goff starts with” considering how far behind he is in the polls” and goes on to explain away his statements, or announcements in those terms… what would they do if he tried to tackle them head on?

        remember that they have control of the airwaves 24/7 and if they choose not to report him accurately, there is bugger all he can do about it.

        of course, he can make complaints to the b.s.a, but that do no more than give the msm carte blanche to go on the offensive in the short term.. and in todays tory wonderland short term is everything.

        i well remember tory commentators (j armstrong for one) writing that the labour party talking about the need to redress the mistakes made by the bolger/shipley govts that led to massive hardship for no discernable gain was “living in the past”. “that was then, this is now” being the standard catch cry for those who would have us forget what was being done to us so that it could be done again..

        here’s a quote for you that actually works… “those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it”

    • Hennie van der Merwe 3.3
      18 July 2011 at 4:19 pm

      When will these silly little journalists learn that they just look stupid and loose credibility when they try to take someone with superior debating (knowledge, intellect) skills on? Can someone please tell them that their job is to get the news across in an unbiased manner? They are so obviously biased that most informed people will just ignore their interviews.
      More embarrassing is when they interview their own favorites and then sound just like the ridiculous own party questions in parliament Q&A sessions! What a waste of time these are.

  4. Secret Squirrel 4
    18 July 2011 at 7:36 am

    Is Keith Ng a “credible economic commentator”? He sums up on Public Address:

    And it crystalises my view of Labour’s tax package: Using CGT to pay off debt is a rock solid policy core, but everything else about the package is haphazard, with a lot of question marks and not much rationale.

    At the launch, I asked Goff and then Cunliffe whether their debt payment track was a commitment, or whether it was simply what they would do if they had the money. Both avoided the question, and Cunliffe said he was confident that their estimates were so conservative that they would only have more money, not less.

    National’s attacks (even though the “$15b new debt” figure is plain ridiculous) raise important questions. I still don’t know how committed Labour is to paying off debt; if forced to choose between paying off debt and tax cuts, what would a Labour government choose?

    Until you answer that question, you’re not a government-in-waiting.

    Polls seem to agree.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      18 July 2011 at 8:52 am

      Meh, the debtors can wait, we are not going to sacrifice the future and education of our children to keep the same bankers squeezing the life out of Spain, Italy and Germany in even more luxury.

      You’re a pet of the Money Masters.

      • Secret Squirrel 4.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 9:00 am

        Meh, the debtors can wait

        At least you’re honest about it.

        See the response Keith Ng got (in my previous comment) when he asked Goff and Cunliffe.
        Espiner asked Cunliffe something similar on Q+A and Cunliffe evaded.

        Polls suggest that Labour aren’t trusted on their proposals. The leak strategy backfired.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 1:05 pm

          *Shrug*

          In the final analysis I’m not interested in convincing a Right Winger like you. I’ve got people who are genuinely interested in finding out more about the CGT that I can talk to.

          Labour’s media strategy last couple of weeks has been absolutely top notch, I’m looking forwards to more.

          Credit rating agencies will be impressed that at last a major NZ political party has grasped the long term nettle of a CGT.

    • bbfloyd 4.2
      18 July 2011 at 12:12 pm

      secret rodent….bullshit… national have never campaigned on fully costed policies(unless you count the utter bullshit that passes for costing in their ads), and the msm have accepted their word publicly and then campaigned on their behalf…

      if you disagree, then find me one of their policy announcements published during their time in opposition that does give a comprehensive breakdown of costs and benefits that stack up when examined by qualified people.. go on… i dare you..

      btw… framing questions in a way that presupposes the answer does two things…. first, it shows a basic lack of understanding of the totality of the policies being put forward, second, it is a rather limp attempt to corner your opponent into making a rash statement.

      read the policy properly…. it has BOTH of those things you (for whatever reasoning you are following)have decided that can’t actually happen at the same time…

      does that mean that you have realised that the national party’s “tax switch” has done irrepairable damage to the fabric of society? and that . in fact, it was policy thought up “on the hoof” and the govt had no idea what would come about after implementation.?

      i would also state that the govt didn’t give a shit about the fallout from their actions, simply because they have a compliant fourth column who dutifully suppress information, and attack any dissent using their monopoly position on the airwaves. there is no need to exercise “duty of care” when you are never going to have to face the music for all those ruined lives..

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 4.3
      18 July 2011 at 1:29 pm

      You sem confused

      National’s tax cuts created the debt. The CGT is one way of getting us out of English’s hole. A $16B deficit creates a bit of a credibility problem- wouldn’t you agree?

      • mik e 4.3.1
        18 July 2011 at 8:23 pm

        don, forget this debt is compounding up to $72 billion+ national have not costed the $700million loss of income a year from asset sales .That sum is forever, it also means the National party are selling the asset cheaply well below their true value,fire sale prices

  5. battleheed 5
    18 July 2011 at 8:02 am

    Labour seem to be losing the PR game.

  6. burt 6
    18 July 2011 at 8:16 am

    I agree, we aspire to more than welfare and handouts. Tax and spend has been tried before and always ends in recession. The voters have worked it out and with so much old dead wood in the Labour party its no surprise they can’t understand things have changed.

    • Bored 6.1
      18 July 2011 at 8:41 am

      Planet Earth calling Burt, tax and spend results in recession???????Biggest load of bollocks you have contended in years of spouting rubbish. Try something like business is cyclical, unregulated capital tends to exacerbate this. Dont blame welfare as it is always too little, too late and used as a way of ensuring the holy beloved market is primed. Otherwise that would crap out as well for lack of consumption.

      • Gosman 6.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 10:39 am

        How do you explain Greece and Italy then?

        You can hardly claim that they are examples of unregulated capital in action. If anything they show how unchecked State involvement leds to an economic crisis of unfathomable size.

        • Bored 6.1.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 10:47 am

          Planet Earth calling Gos…state involvement has f*** all to do with the PI(I)GS issue, it is entirely an unregulated financial fiasco. The bankers and rich have had the benefit, now per usual they see their salvation is to put the cost on the state and the people.

          • Gosman 6.1.1.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 10:50 am

            Please explain how the bankers caused the Greek economy to implode when the problem is due to the fact the Greeks have been living way beyond their means for decades and the Greek economy is far less free than say the NZ economy is?

            • Bored 6.1.1.1.1.1
              18 July 2011 at 11:01 am

              A quick answer as I have to work …strange concept I know. By allowing further and further expansion of credit lines, backed by ever increasing derivatives backed by nothing other than promises upon promises the finance industry have gone far past the point of being prudent. Their insatiable greed based upon creating credit out of thin air whilst assuming that all risk belongs to the borrower has created the whole crisis. The end behavoir of governments and consumer would not be possible without this. Now when the debtor cannot prop up the debt or even the interest the bankers etc are running for cover, trying to avoid their share of the risk and any culpability. It is actually the banks, not the countries that need to go to the wall.

              In short to leave the lolly jar on the table with the kids whilst you go to the pub is an act of culpability: cant blame the kids for eating the lollies if you did not put it out of reach.

              • Colonial Viper …
                18 July 2011 at 11:23 am

                Also important to note that banks, governments and credit rating agencies are all an interconnected entity now.

                Government leaders have been acting on behalf of foreign financial interests not those of their people.

                Greece needs to follow the example of Iceland, Argentina and Russia and default ASAP.

              • Gosman …
                18 July 2011 at 11:31 am

                Ummm…. so essentially you are blaming the suppliers of the credit rather than the consumers of the credit for the problem are you?

                Interesting idea. I’m not responsible for my own spending because someone offers me a cheap loan I can’t be expected not to take advantage of it and get myself in to fiscal difficulty.

                I’ll try that with my bank next time I have trouble with the Mortgage payments. Sorry Mr Banker but it is really your own fault for lending me all that money in the first place.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  18 July 2011 at 11:48 am

                  Trying to compare the behaviour and financing of a country to your own personal situation is stupid.

                  For starters, you can’t print your own money.

                  Although strictly speaking, neither can Greece since they are locked into the EU straitjacket.

                • Lazy Susan …
                  18 July 2011 at 12:04 pm

                  It’s the job of bankers to manage risk. They didn’t and now it’s all turned to custard they want the taxpayers to bail them out.

                  Using your mortgage analogy the present bail-out scenario is akin to your bank giving you an extra loan so that you can keep paying the interest on the first one even though there’s no possibility you will ever be able to repay that loan. What’s more the bank will use someone elses money to give you that loan. Its irresponsible and called kicking the can down the road

                  Don’t you believe in a free market? The banks holding the bad debt should not be propped up and allowed to fail.

                  Remember, by defaulting the Greek people will also pay a price.

                  • Bored …
                    18 July 2011 at 12:10 pm

                    Great point Lazy: if you are going to burn endlessly under debt you might as well default and burn short term…and let the banks burn as well.

                  • Gosman …
                    18 July 2011 at 1:55 pm

                    Bankers deal in risk and return but so does everybody involved in a bank transaction.

                    When you get a loan you are just as responsible as the lender to ensure you understand the risk involved if you are unable to meet the repayments so long as those risk are disclosed to you. If you don’t there is little recourse trying to get the bank to cut you a break.

                    Hence managing risk is not a one sided transaction as you seem to be implying.

                    Anyway we are talking about sovereign nations here not some ignorant Joe Blow getting out of their depth. Please tell me why the Greek State cannot be expected to take responsibility for getting into hock more than it could afford due to following leftist economic policies?

                  • Gosman …
                    18 July 2011 at 1:58 pm

                    BTW I essentially agree with you that the Banks should be hung out to dry on the Debt crisis in places like Greece. They made a bad lending decision and should suffer the consequences. This should at least make lenders think twice before lending to leftist nations like Greece in future.

              • Gosman …
                18 July 2011 at 11:39 am

                What you fail to tackle is the fact that not all countries took advantage of this cheap credit to get themselves into fiscal difficulties.

                It is a choice that is made at a Government or Consumer level. Many countries following left wing policies were the ones who made this choice to become more indebted to fund the policies which left wing people tend to like, e.g. greater social spending.

                To try and mainly blame the outcome of this choice on the bankers is ridiculous. Right wing political thinking is concerned with taking personal responsibility for ones decisions whereas, as far as I can see, left wing political thinking is concerned with trying to place the blame on someone or something else.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  18 July 2011 at 11:46 am

                  The Greek Govt is culpable. But they are part of the financial elite not acting in their peoples interets.

                  GPap has cost his country tens of billions of dollars through his own incompetence/malfaesence.

                  German and French banks, along with Goldman Sachs, lent Greece far too much money (where was their priudential behaviour) and also helped Greece hide the loans from the ECB.

                  Right wing political thinking is concerned with taking personal responsibility for ones decisions whereas

                  Wrong.

                  This is no longer about the Right/Left divide, it is about a global Kleptocratic elite class looking at impoverishing the Greek people so they can pick up Greek assets for cents on the dollar.

                  And guess what, the Greek people have some pretty clear and forthright opinions on that.

                  • Chess Player …
                    18 July 2011 at 11:53 am

                    “a global Kleptocratic elite class”

                    Sheesh – that’s gotta be straight out of the Travellerev hymn-book…

                    Time to put on your mail order tin foil hat and bunker down, buddy

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    18 July 2011 at 12:03 pm

                    I’d call them the elite plutocratic class, but since they seem to be getting most of their wealth by stealing from workers and ordinary people they are definitely kleptocrats.

                    A fine distinction, but an important one.

                  • Bored …
                    18 July 2011 at 12:05 pm

                    Gos,

                    When a lender gives credit to an individual who quite possibly cannot pay there is an element of risk. Who is culpable? There would have been no risk without the loan, no imprudence. Its the old story of let the buyer beware in reverse.

                  • Gosman …
                    18 July 2011 at 12:21 pm

                    Completely agreed Bored.

                    I also agree that the lenders should be expected to take a loss due to imprudent lending policies. That is the free market in action. Government bail outs have little to do with free market economics.

                    However, just because the lenders were imprudent by lending to countries with leftist economic policies like Greece, does not excuse the people of those countries from their culpability in the mess that their country is in.

                    Even if the Greeks default they will not be able to follow such imprudent left wing policies in future as they will no longer be able to access cheap finance from overseas to prop up their unproductive life styles.

                    You just need to look to Zimbabwe to see what happens after a country has exhausted their economy via imprudent fiscal policies.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    18 July 2011 at 1:11 pm

                    Gosman you simply have no idea; why the hell should the Greeks agree to mortgage terms on their children and their grand children to pay foreign bankers for debts that they never incurred?

                    Zimbabwe is another stupid irrelevant example; Greek has a productive integrated economy with industry and international trading links, Zimbabwe has none of that.

                    Greek needs to default and default now. Four or five hard years will result, but at least it won’t be ten or twenty.

                    Ireland did all which was asked of it in their austerity packages now they are more frakked than they were 2 years ago.

                  • Gosman …
                    18 July 2011 at 2:02 pm

                    Ummmm…. Zimbabwe used to be the second largest economy in Southern Africa and was one of the world’s leading exporters of products such as Tobacco. They used to have a very sophisticated and integrated economy until Zanu-PF decided to go all Socialist on them by destroying the concept of private property right’s.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    18 July 2011 at 8:33 pm

                    Gosman – irrelevant.

                    Democratic socialism is a system where workers make the key decisions in an economy. Thats NOT what Zanu PF implemented.

            • mik e 6.1.1.1.1.2
              18 July 2011 at 8:31 pm

              the bankers know that govts will bail them out otherwise they wouldn,t lend in the first place just look at South Canterbury Finance they went on an $800million lending spree after the govt guaranteed them and some of that debt we are paying off is their $1.4 billion and possibly more same on a National scale

            • Puddleglum 6.1.1.1.1.3
              19 July 2011 at 4:01 pm

              Hi Gosman, I’m not sure that government/public debt is a reliable indicator of socialist governments living beyond their means.

              This table has some interesting examples of low government debt in places like Cuba (34.4% of GDP), Venezuela (25.5% – same as NZ at the time, i.e., 2010) and Libya on 3%. Meanwhile Japan is on top (225%) and that remarkable, oft-cited example of capitalist brilliance, Singapore, is at 102%. Hard to know what moralistic lesson to draw about the ideological hue of a government and the propensity to go into debt, so far as I can see.

              If you look at the Greek situation, this nominally socialist government came to power in October 2009 after five years of the liberal-conservative New Democrats and has itself pursued a programme of radical cuts to public expenditure.

              During the 2000s, Greece’s economy was booming. Then the world economy tanked and Greece’s tanked faster than some others (now -4.5% ‘growth’). Maybe a contributing problem, and not just for Greece, is the cuts to the tax base (freeing up money for speculative investment in derivatives, etc.) which, over the past decade, have been heading south globally.

              Unsurprisingly, the right wing opposition in Greece is currently calling for further tax cuts. 

  7. Policy Parrot 7
    18 July 2011 at 8:18 am

    It doesn’t matter how they console themselves with polls, National will be ejected from power in November, and it will be a heart-breaker for them. I’ll be looking forward to the media narrative after that, along with the major pollsters reviewing their methodologies.

    Why? For N-ACT-UF to increase its share of the vote from 2008 seems very unlikely. They haven’t given any opposition voters a reason to change to the government that wouldn’t have already attracted them previously, in fact, anecdotally, they have pissed off a lot of people. If the Labour machine can turn out South Auckland, unlike in 2008, and base/core Labour voters are motivated to vote – then Labour should be remain confident about its chances of leading the next government.

    Election night 2011 will be even entertaining (and I must say nerve-wracking) than 2005.

    • burt 7.1
      18 July 2011 at 8:20 am

      If the Labour machine can turn out South Auckland

      Buy some Restaurant Brand shares leading up the election, sell them them a few weeks after – KFC sales are going to be massive late Nov !

      • Policy Parrot 7.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 8:25 am

        Gee burt – isn’t that almost considered “insider trading”? Good luck with your share purchase, just remember that zero day for CGT is fast approaching.

      • felix 7.1.2
        18 July 2011 at 10:08 am

        I have never understood where this “Labour buys KFC as a bribe” meme comes from.

        Is there an actual story behind it?

        Or is it just the usual racist wet dream from the KBR?

        burt? You must know.

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1
          18 July 2011 at 12:35 pm

          During the Moutoa Gardens protests in Wanganui there were frequent media reports of the Maaaaariis lining up at the local KFC from 9am every morning.

          Since then its become a RWNJ meme around unemployed troublemakers buying fast food on the Government dime.

        • Anne 7.1.2.2
          18 July 2011 at 5:45 pm

          @ felix
          It was one of the false stories the Nat ‘dirty tricks’ brigade spread around in 2008. Labour was supposed to have bribed Pacific Island voters in Sth. Auckland by buying them KFC meals. It never happened of course, but that didn’t stop certain sections of the media – and since the RWNJs – making ‘a meal’ out of the story.

          It reminds me of the recent incident where Rodney Hide jumped out of his crown car and took a photo of his supercity sparring partner, Phil Twford’s campaign office. No doubt it was part of a plan to discredit Phil by accusing him of some sort of electoral fraud. Nothing has happened because there’s been no electoral fraud.

    • davidc 7.2
      18 July 2011 at 8:27 am

      If the Labour machine can turn out South Auckland

      The great Labour Machine couldnt steal a victory off Hone when it concentrated on one electorate, what chance over the whole country?

      Answer : Zero (or 27% of vote, same result)

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1
        18 July 2011 at 8:49 am

        Yeah mate you just keep telling yourself that, pretend that people ain’t hurting and that the price squeeze from the RWC on ordinary costs aren’t going to be noticed 🙂

        • davidc 7.2.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 9:00 am

          Price squeeze? yip you will probably notice another $2 on the price of a Stella down at whatever poncy bar you frequent… other than that, you think PakandSave is gonna put up the price of baked beans? numpty.

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 11:59 am

            You better check the inflation figures just released. Its already happening.

            And you want to take a trip out of town with the family over the next few months? Sorry motels and restaurant prices will be up anywhere from 10% to 50%.

            • infused 7.2.1.1.1.1
              18 July 2011 at 12:20 pm

              Inflation hasn’t been caused by the WRC.

              Who cares about restaurant prices at this time? It’s only going to be in certian areas you probably wouldn’t eat at anyway. You’re fish n chip store will be fine mate.

              • Colonial Viper …
                18 July 2011 at 12:31 pm

                Creeping eye gouging is adding to inflation mate, so much for that monthly nice dinner out or weekend away eh?

          • bbfloyd 7.2.1.1.2
            18 July 2011 at 12:23 pm

            daveyyyyy….. why you being such a numbnuts? your narrative is years out of date… baked beans have gone up by around 50% in the last two years.. where have you been hiding? in the back of the watties warehouse? stealing tins of beans? only explanation i can think of for why you have no clues whatsoever as to their price.

            well done on the personal attack front though.. managed to bring homophobia into the debate.. too bad about the other stupidity, but hey, when you have an illness like yours, then i suppose we need to make allowances for it…

          • Cin77 7.2.1.1.3
            18 July 2011 at 2:25 pm

            Do you even live in New Zealand? When was the last time you went grocery shopping? Your beloved baked beans are already nearly a dollar more than this time last year

  8. tsmithfield 8
    18 July 2011 at 9:00 am

    The problem with Labour’s CGT is that they will be committing the country to seven years of debt at a far higher level than they have let on to the public. They are speculating on a future return from their capital gains tax to pay off this debt. However, if the gains don’t materialise for any reason, then the country will be left with massive debt.

    Further more, short-term capital gains (less than 10 years) are currently taxed at a much higher level than 15%. So, Labours change will actually cost them much of this revenue since what was previously taxed at a higher rate will now be taxed at only 15%.

    But, hey, if by some miracle Labour manage to reverse the terminal and rapid decline they are experiencing in the polls and actually get to introduce their tax, then great. I for one will be looking at our inventory list to see what we can make an arguable case for capitalising. Then, when we sell the items we will only be taxed at 15% on the profits from these sales. I can imagine a lot of housing companies licking their lips. Instead of building speck houses, selling them and being taxed at the company rate, why not rent them first for a few months, and then sell them, getting the taxed at the CGT rate of 15% rather than the company rate. This will be a boon for accountants and the expected revenue simply will not happen.

    • davidc 8.1
      18 July 2011 at 9:04 am

      That is a part of the problem with the tax package, the CGT bit is kinda alright.
      Problem is the election bribe, the $5K/yr tax free, its utterly unaffordable.

      Also … the tax package isnt an answer for asset sales, which is what it was meant to be, Labour hasnt come close to an answer for “where is some money going to come from” and now because of the election bribe it cant afford anything.

      Its not as tho Labour actually going to cut Govt spending, or beneficiary wasteage are they? Ha!

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 11:49 am

        Its not as tho Labour actually going to cut Govt spending, or beneficiary wasteage are they? Ha!

        Gonna cut the wastage of wealth owning upper class bludgers mate 🙂

        The Govt needs to increase its spend on the people not decrease it. Plenty of wealth in the country to allow that to happen as well.

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 8.2
      18 July 2011 at 1:36 pm

      Save that argument for $16B “Borrow and Spend” Bill English. Surely you can see he wants to have his cake (tax cuts) and eat it (with no reduction in expenditure). the CGT is one way to help reverse that problem.

    • KJT 8.3
      18 July 2011 at 2:45 pm

      It is obvious Labour has scored a king hit.

      The trolls, RWNJ’s and NACT are spinning and bullshitting so much they are going to disappear in a shower of their own excrement.

  9. Bomber 9
    18 July 2011 at 9:04 am

    You children at the standard are so easy to spook. If I don’t believe half the bullshit TV One broadcast as news with their Happy Feet fetish, why the hell would I believe anything their cheap brainfart telephone polls say in a recession this steep?

    Why do the kids at the standard have such short memories? The herald digi poll proclaimed brown and banks neck and neck, what happened there standard kids? Uncle Len won by a landslide didn’t he? How about the most recent poll for the TTT by-election that you prayed was right? The one claiming hone was only ahead by 1%? How did that turn out? Hone won it by over 9%! We don’t even know what the undecided margin in this latest poll is, why would you accept a methodology that has screwed the pooch twice, yet you seem intimidated of by now?

    Guyon called it for Kelvin and Hone won by 9%! are you forgetting this because it tripped you up?

    I’ll post up a blog today about how the left win as it seems the standard needs a lesson
    in parliamentary math, oh and tomorrow Tumeke will be posting an exclusive interview with David Cunliffe.

    Why do I bother reading The Standard?

    • kriswgtn 9.1
      18 July 2011 at 9:46 am

      oh and this from someone who should be in jail for continually breaking the law hahah
      dickhead

    • r0b 9.2
      18 July 2011 at 9:49 am

      You children at the standard are so easy to spook.

      Talk to me Bomber, not “The Standard” – it’s my name on the post.  

      why would you accept a methodology that has screwed the pooch twice, yet you seem intimidated of by now? 

      Maybe you should switch to decaf B.  The post does not panic or proclaim the death of Labour or any such nonsense.  It just reports a bad poll (which it is) and heads off the main Tory spin on it.  Yeah the Digipolls are pretty crap, but that can all come out in the comments.  One of the nice benefits of having an informed and active commenting community eh?

      Why do I bother reading The Standard?

      Glutton for punishment? 

      • Lanthanide 9.2.1
        18 July 2011 at 11:48 am

        Maybe bomber is referring to the other commentors? That’s how I initially read it, anyway.

      • prism 9.2.2
        18 July 2011 at 12:02 pm

        Rob I don’t think you can stop the man when he’s off like a rocket, or an exploding something, more a firework than a bomb. The result is a sight to behold, enjoyable, colourful and the advisory is to allow a safety distance to avoid being covered by sparks or spray.

    • marty mars 9.3
      18 July 2011 at 10:34 am

      What the patronising fuck are you on about – children this, kids that – anyone who visits this site knows what it is about – or finds out quick enough – just like at Tumeke.

    • Colonial Viper 9.4
      18 July 2011 at 11:53 am

      If I don’t believe half the bullshit TV One broadcast as news with their Happy Feet fetish, why the hell would I believe anything their cheap brainfart telephone polls say in a recession this steep?

      Good point.

      Checking the international finance news today, it seems that the NZ economy is “booming” at the moment with “unexpected strength”. *Follows tumbleweed across the road with eyes*

    • Redbaron77 9.5
      18 July 2011 at 1:23 pm

      You’ve raised a good point about the undecided margin Bomber. The TVNZ-Colmar Brunton polls do not provide these figures. Which makes it quite difficult to determine the strength of political sentiment at the time a poll is taken.

    • VB 9.6
      18 July 2011 at 3:56 pm

      As a former pollster, I know that ANY poll in the present day that is based on landline interviews is missing a huge proportion of the young and less well-off potential respondents. And any poll where the undecideds is not indicated and probed is not worth the paper it is written on. I watch with vague interest, but don’t put a lot of faith in what we’ve seen in the most recent polls.

  10. Bored 10
    18 July 2011 at 9:13 am

    TS, you are right there will be no capital gains to tax as the price of capital assets of all types will deflate long term. That is because we have reached the limits of growth. The only way the tax will reap benefits is if the lack of growth is countered by deliberate price inflation from stoking the money supply, in which case the returns will be worthless anyway.

    The above scenario begs a much bigger question: why the hell are NACT borrowing weekly more money to pay for tax cuts to the wealthy? These bastards have a deliberate policy of driving us broke for the benefit of a very few.

  11. Blue 11
    18 July 2011 at 9:14 am

    Does anyone know how Colmar Brunton chooses when to conduct a poll?

    What possible reason could there be for taking a poll *before* the CGT policy was announced, and then releasing the results just after the policy was announced?

    Unless of course the aim was to give National a boost by making it look as if the public has had a negative reaction to CGT, scaring voters into changing their minds about the new proposal.

    Very smooth move. Just when the Nats needed a good headline and a good attack line, one just appears magically for them out of nowhere. Strange, that.

    • Secret Squirrel 11.1
      18 July 2011 at 9:18 am

      Colmar/TVNZ would have it scheduled well in advance, they poll regularly, not at the whim of party policy releases.

      Labour chose the timing of their release, probably with Colmar in mind. It backfired.

      • Lanthanide 11.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 9:25 am

        Do you have any evidence for either of these claims, or are you just making it up?

        Because I don’t really believe either to be true.

        It’s quite possible Colmar decided on the dates for the polling before knowing the dates of Labour’s policy announcement (although they were saying back as early as the budget they would unveil their policy in mid-July). But I think it wouldn’t have been unreasonable for them to cancel any polling they had done and re-schedule it when they knew the announcement was going to be on Thursday and their polling finished on Wednesday.

        • Secret Squirrel 11.1.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 9:34 am

          You really think political parties wouldn’t time major strategies with polls and news cycles in mind? I’d be astounded if Labour planning is that haphazard they wouldn’t consider it.

          Poll companies will have to schedule all their polling, and political polling scheduling will have to be done well in advance. They poll other things at the same time, that takes planning.

          • Lanthanide 11.1.1.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 10:25 am

            You’re assuming that the Labour party is told by the polling companies when they are doing their polls.

            I don’t know why they would do this as a matter of course, because then parties could intentionally put out statements so as to rig the poll results. And indeed, if Labour did know about the polling dates, don’t you think they might have made their announcement a week earlier?

        • Alwyn 11.1.1.2
          18 July 2011 at 9:58 am

          That would be quite silly. It would mean, if you think about it, that there couldn’t be any polling at all from now until the election. Some party or other is going to be making an announcement, or doing something significant, virtually every day between now and the election.
          Should we stop polling because JK is off to Washington? After all his photo with Obama will be in all the newspapers. That will bias the results surely?
          I think we can be quite sure that Labour arranged its schedule around the known polling dates.
          Incidentally I wonder if TVNZ leak results to National as well as Labour? Trevor was obviously warned about the dreadful numbers at least a day in advance.

          • Lanthanide 11.1.1.2.1
            18 July 2011 at 10:26 am

            Because John Key going to Washington has as much bearing on the election outcome as Labour announcing their major policy platform for the election…

  12. tsmithfield 12
    18 July 2011 at 9:35 am

    Problem for Labour is that I think things are going to get worse for them in the polls rather than better. As I pointed out in my previous post, National are having all sorts of fun with the numbers, pointing to Treasury calculations that show that Labour’s plans are far worse than their own numbers suggest, which in themselves are a bit of a worry. National will be playing the “Greece” scenario if Labour gets elected right through to the election, and Labour have given them plenty of ammunition to do it.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1
      18 July 2011 at 11:56 am

      ts – if people allow themselves to be fooled as you are by inaccurate and misleading Greece comparisons (and its very simple what greece should do – default and default today) then yeah they should vote Key and English.

      But that’s how low and misleading National are, given that our Government has one of the lowest net debt levels in the Western world.

      • tsmithfield 12.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 12:26 pm

        “and its very simple what greece should do – default and default today”

        Note to me:

        Never Never lend CV money. 🙂

      • queenstfarmer 12.1.2
        18 July 2011 at 12:42 pm

        “its very simple what greece should do – default and default today”.

        A brilliant plan CV. The Greeks should stick it to those stupid enough to lend them money before. After all, it’s not as though the Greek socialist government is on its knees begging international markets for more money, is it?

        • Colonial Viper 12.1.2.1
          18 July 2011 at 1:17 pm

          After all, it’s not as though the Greek socialist government is on its knees begging international markets for more money, is it?

          Fucking stupid Right Wingers the lot of ya

          Do you have any idea what happens to each billion € that Greece is given now as a “bail out”? (And by the way, I always thought bailing someone else meant giving them money, not “helping” them by putting them deeper into debt like a loan shark does)

          That “bail out money” goes directly from the ECB, Germany, UK, France etc. directly back to the big creditor banks. Tax payers throughout the Eurozone are being shoulder tapped to give even more of their money to the private banks, none of it helps the Greek people one bit, just the cashflow of the largest financial institutions. In a scheme known as fuck the people, save the bankers bonuses.

          And the additional tab + interest gets added to the Greek peoples accounts.

          Fucking no idea you losers.

          Never Never lend CV money. 🙂

          That’s right, I would expect prudential behaviour from creditors, not the ongoing scam which has been played out on Greece.

          • queenstfarmer 12.1.2.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 1:50 pm

            the ongoing scam which has been played out on Greece

            Right…. It was all a consipiracy designed to put the bankers who organised it at grave risk of losing their money! And like all good conspiracies, everyone’s in on it!

          • Gosman 12.1.2.1.2
            18 July 2011 at 4:19 pm

            Yet not one leading politician from a major political party who can influence the debate in Greece is seriously pushing the default option. Even the Socialists are pushing for the rescue package. Why is that do you think this is?

            • Colonial Viper 12.1.2.1.2.1
              18 July 2011 at 8:38 pm

              Even the Socialists are pushing for the rescue package. Why is that do you think this is?

              I already told you guys – there is no distinction between the financial elite and the Government in Greece, not any more.

              GPap has sold his own people out for a few tens of millions in personal profit, and likely the promise of a cushy job as CEO of Greece, which will likely be renamed Southern Germany.

              In essence, GPap has as much to do with socialism as Roger Douglas had to do with labour union rights.

        • mik e 12.1.2.2
          18 July 2011 at 8:40 pm

          They have just taken the reigns from centre right govt that started this borrowing spree way back when they borrowed $25billion for the olympics and they hadn,t stopped until the new socialist govt was forced to by the EUCBank.Now everyone in Greece who has been avoiding tax will have pay to bail out the economy. sound familiar thats probably whats goning to happen if borrow and hope Bill English gets another 3 years

      • higherstandard 12.1.3
        18 July 2011 at 1:29 pm

        “and its very simple what greece should do – default and default today”

        And where pray tell will the pharmaceuticals and equipment to run their hospital system be coming from ?

        • KJT 12.1.3.1
          18 July 2011 at 2:15 pm

          Have a look at Argentina. HS. Watch the graphs of real GDP and median incomes before and after they defaulted.
          The good thing about corporations is they are too greedy to stop selling to you because of a principle.

          • higherstandard 12.1.3.1.1
            18 July 2011 at 4:56 pm

            I don’t think you get it KJT – I have some colleagues over there and the hospital system is running short on essential items due to the govt. repeatedly paying late. the situation now is that many suppliers are demanding payment prior to delivery. If greece defaults this will be an ongoing problem unless they exit the Eu and their currency manages to survive, failing that it’ll only be a private healthcare system where you’ll be able to get an acceptable standard of care.

            • Colonial Viper 12.1.3.1.1.1
              18 July 2011 at 8:44 pm

              After default, foreign currency reserves will have to be prioritised into certain specific areas for the next year or two. Things like drugs and critical machine/power plant parts amongst them.There will be severe currency controls and the government will likely nationalise any enterprise which can earn hard currency.

              It’ll hurt, there’s no two ways around it.

              Its two years of pain compared to mortgaging the kids and grand kids. Every man woman and child in Greece owes roughly $60,000 to foreign bankers at the moment. And that’s just the debt we know about.

              The kicker is that money has typically gone to the financial elite in Greece and other places, but it is the ordinary people asked to pay and pay big.

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 12.2
      18 July 2011 at 1:41 pm

      Anticipating 4% growth and 170K per year jobs is dodgy also. Not to mention factoring in asset sales but not divedend losses before they even occur. I know which party is sending us down the Greece path.

  13. randal 13
    18 July 2011 at 12:24 pm

    the national party is not going to just fall over!
    Phil Goff should start wearing a stetson and listening to waylon jennings.

    • Alwyn 13.1
      18 July 2011 at 1:32 pm

      Roger Miller seems rather more appropriate.
      I can imagine Phil thinking at the moment –
      “Dang me. Dang me. They oughta take a rope and hang me”

  14. Colonial Viper 14
    18 July 2011 at 1:08 pm

    It could be a clear signal that Labour needs to work harder to get their message out there, in front of all of Bill’s bullshit and bluster 🙂

  15. bomber 15
    18 July 2011 at 2:32 pm

    I don’t believe most news from TVNZ, why would I believe their political polls? http://tumeke.blogspot.com/201​1/07/i-dont-believe-most-news-​from-tvnz-why.html

    • lprent 15.1
      18 July 2011 at 2:49 pm

      Thanks for that – I was trying to find the poll detail myself, and your message popped up on facebook.

      Makes Guyon Espiner look like a bit of a hysterical git doesn’t it? From what I remember of their usual ‘undecided’ (which we occasionally see) this is a pretty hefty jump in undecided, which because of the way that they report only the decided does interesting things to the percentages as you drop the size of the decided pool. I’m not surprised that the numbers of undecided went up during that poll period. The impact of open server would have been reverberating then – and that was not a good look for any party + there was no policy for months prior.

      But it does really make look Espiner look like a idiot when he didn’t report the most interesting change in the poll.

      • interesting 15.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 3:49 pm

        undecideds in their last poll was 16%

        • Alwyn 15.1.1.1
          18 July 2011 at 4:09 pm

          You really are a nuisance.
          Don’t you know better than to introduce real numbers into a debate?
          LP had just derived a wonderful argument for the Labour vote not really going down and you ruin his whole case by bringing in a little matter of some facts.
          I am reminded of Richard Feynman’s words that LP should keep in mind
          Roughly speaking he said that you can have the most beautiful theory but if it does not agree with experimental facts it is WRONG.

    • Secret Squirrel 15.2
      18 July 2011 at 3:24 pm

      Polls are only indicators, albeit important ones as they can frame media coverage and discussion, and they can also influence people who might participate in the next poll. It might be a bugger if it works against your interests but it’s how things work.

      I think the current swings and the number of undecideds reflects the softness of a big portion of current opnion, many people are floating around wondering who the hell to support. That measn not only do we have quite a few undecideds, there is likely to be a fairly sizable chunk of very soft decideds who could float somewhere different in next month’s breeze.

      The numbers still don’t look great for Labour. This was their big oportunity to make a poll impact with CGT and it hasb’t worked. There could be some follow on from that in the next poll but that could be clouded with whatever the next issue of the day or issue of the week will be.

      I’m more surprised that Act went up a bit while there advertising stunt was unfolding. But with the small parties half a percent is only one handful of people in a poll and that’s even more vloatile.

    • the pink postman 15.3
      18 July 2011 at 3:28 pm

      I have lived in Aotearoa for nearly 5o years. both my wife and I have been active in a number of organizations.I have had calls from all sorts of telephone jocks . Selling me everything from life insurance to cell,phones and everything in between, Not once have I been asked who I will vote for .Not once has anyone contacted me regarding how I was voting. Do these so called pollsters really exist ?

  16. bomber 16
    18 July 2011 at 2:35 pm

    PS – Greece was a jack up and everyone other than the wide eyed right wing free market acolytes seem to know that http://www.newser.com/story/80527/goldman-helped-greece-hide-catastrophic-debt.html

    • Gosman 16.1
      18 July 2011 at 3:53 pm

      Wow!

      A financial institution constructs a financial product to help facilitate a borrower to get funds. Who would have thunk it?

      I’d suggest you stick with topics you can comprehend a little Mr Bradbury rather than trying to tackle international finance, which you seem to have a special afinity to misunderstand.

      BTW did you notice the deal occurred in 2002. The cuurent year is 2011. Did Goldman Sachs provide this service to Greece every year since then?

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1
        18 July 2011 at 7:45 pm

        Hmmmm seems like **you’re** the one who hasn’t figured it out gosman.

        As a helpful tip you can start by asking where the funds leant out by the financial institutions to Greece originally came from, and how much it cost those financial institution to source said funds.

        BTW did you notice the deal occurred in 2002. The cuurent year is 2011. Did Goldman Sachs provide this service to Greece every year since then?

        IB’s provide chargeable services to clients for as long as it is profitable, and when it is no longer sufficiently profitable, those clients become targets of the IBs in themselves – as you can see happening now.

        • Gosman 16.1.1.1
          19 July 2011 at 1:29 pm

          Written like someone who has never before worked for an investment bank in his life and has very little understanding of their internal workings other than what he picks up from his biased reading of media.

  17. the pink postman 17
    18 July 2011 at 3:01 pm

    Well, if I believed the polls everytime I would now be a raving nut case.
    I see or am told constantly about Labour’s poor polling . I realise that we have the highest cost of living rise for 21 years. That ACC is not performing as it should, That unemployment is out of control.,That the spives and con- men are having the time of their lives, That speculators are enjoying life to the full.That TVNZ is collapsing and likely to be sold . Then there is the zenophobic utterances Key ,the son nof a refugee hjas made in public.
    .I could on and on . Then I see these so called polls telling me that the Nats and the smile and wave PM who most likely has a drink problem is the most popular party and PM ever . My East-End backgound has a word for it but its too course for Standard readers ears,

  18. interesting 18
    18 July 2011 at 3:45 pm

    I love it how people who comment on these posts claim the polls are all evil and wrong and have crap ways of working things out when they are bad for the left….but then when the polls show a move towards the left they are suddenly wonderful polls and they are “accurate” and showing “good signs for the left”….you cant have it both ways people… either the polls are always wrong (whether they are good or bad for the left) or they are right…

    (FYI i am not saying the various people who post on here are saying these things…i am saying those who comment on them are).

    • McFlock 18.1
      18 July 2011 at 5:55 pm

      You mean commentators like Farrar?

      Actually, no. Polls work on statistics – they are always estimates of an unknown point, and for a given level of confidence in that estimate. The basic issue is that any single datum might be within the design 3% (usual), or might be “rogue”. Dramatic swings without any plausible causal agent are more likely to be rogue. It is the trends you have to look at if you want an accurate picture.

      Oh, and one should also look at who’s likely to have coalition friends after the election.

  19. ak 19
    18 July 2011 at 5:39 pm

    The most reliable poll I’ve seen since around 2004 involves simply counting the number of right-wing comments on a Standard post.

    Well done Labour, looks like CGT’s a winner.

    With thanks to all little selfish, greedy, heartless tory boys and girls here, each and every one.

  20. Seti 20
    18 July 2011 at 5:52 pm

    The problem for Labour is continuous low polling will eventually manifest itself as pessimistic indifference to a section of its electorate, and potentially a low voter turnout. T’was the major reason that Luigi Peters wanted polling banned in the month prior to ballot day.

  21. I dreamed a dream 21
    18 July 2011 at 7:12 pm

    Actually the poll reflects support for CGT, if you analyse why the Greens made big gains at the expense of Labour.

    Labour had kept quiet in the week before their announcement of the CGT policy. During the week of Labour silence, Russell Norman of the Greens did a fantastic job actively promoting CGT on a daily basis. Russell Norman had shown great leadership for CGT, and he/Greens did a great job. That’s why a lot of Labour supporters were willing to park their votes with the Greens.

    Now that the official CGT policy has been announced by Labour, subsequent polls should show the drift back to Labour. Let’s see what the next Roy Morgan poll says.

    • Reality Bytes 21.1
      18 July 2011 at 7:43 pm

      I think the margin of error in these polls is really massive, especially considering their methodology is not explained, no doubt due to the fact they have a piss-poor methodology (otherwise they would be telling us about it to earn more cred).

      I’d guesstimate the true margin of error is more likely to be in the range of 20-30% (due to poorly thought out surveying practices) rather than the purely mathematical 3 or 4% they tend quote.

  22. Reality Bytes 22
    18 July 2011 at 7:29 pm

    You do have to wonder… When one of these pollsters calls a household…

    “Can I speak to Mr or Mrs so and so.” And IF a voting age boomeranger/teenager/adult-child-of-the-householders answers the phone, they may likely respond “Yeah sure I’ll just go get (Mum or Dad)” and then that is the generation that ends up answering the poll. If Mum or Dad answers the phone, do they also seek the opinion of the Boomer/Offspring, or acknowledge the limitations of their poll? This is a statistic that is not disclosed, so I have my doubts as to whether any thought to this is happening.

    A Realistic poll would take the opinions of all voting age inhabitants of a household. But the methodology is not laid out as to whether this happens.

    A Realistic poll would give a better breakdown of how certain generations answered and how certain generations declined, the voting population makeup etc, that could be very telling.

    IMO the details are scant and piss poor. They are only interested in making stories up to suit the weak data they have received.

    And how about young flatters who do not have a listing in the white pages, how are they contacted for their opinion?

    This and many other questions regarding statistics are never addressed.

    What is the methodology.

    If the standard of journalism is anything to stereotype these Colmar Brunston pollsters by, I doubt they have put much effort into it at all. Especially considering the details of how they have tried to make it as accurate as possible, and admitted the statistical limitations ARE NEVER INCLUDED in these ‘stories’.

    • Reality Bytes 22.1
      18 July 2011 at 7:45 pm

      “If Mum or Dad answers the phone, do they also seek the opinion of the Boomer/Offspring”

      I meant “Boomeranger” as in someone who has returned home to live with Mums and/or Dads, sorry for the confusion.

  23. jackal 23
    19 July 2011 at 11:56 am

    I’m trying to reference a quote. David Lange:

    “It’s the sort of thing that you would put in place if you were sure you were going to lose the next election and be in opposition for the next 20 years.”

    Could somebody tell me when and where David said this?

  24. Puddleglum 24
    19 July 2011 at 1:21 pm

    The interesting thing about this poll is the dip for Labour and the simultaneous bump for the Greens (without much change for National).

    There’s the theory that the Greens ‘fronted’ (or front-footed) a CGT during the polling period but I’m not sure that’s likely to be the cause of these simultaneous trends. It seems odd that the Greens would benefit from a tax that is being talked about because a Labour-led government might introduce it, especially given that ‘internal polling’ of Labour’s supposedly shows that a CGT is not favoured, overall (and on its own).

    A simpler cause would be that this particular sample is skewed towards higher income areas, in which the Greens tend to do better than their average at elections (may also be the case for Roy Morgan polls which tend to have the Greens ‘over-represented’). I think this is what we’ve probably seen.

    It relates to a more general question I’ve raised a couple of times: How are polling companies constructing their ‘Christchurch quota’ given the residential disruption from the earthquakes?

    (It also links to the broader claims about landlines versus cellphones as they relate to different social and economic groups.)

    In short, how are polling companies constructing their geographic ‘units’ as a basis for creating a representative sample (i.e., is weighting involved, is there repeated calling within an area or is it entirely random from the national population?). I don’t know the answer to this question but I think it would shed light on this particular poll and on the polls in general.

    Given the coverage over the last couple of weeks, I find it hard to imagine that the dip in the poll for Labour has anything to do with the CGT issue (i.e., it’s difficult to see how it would harm Labour to this degree). And, if that issue is discounted I can’t see anything else that has happened that would shift support in that way. Then again, I don’t watch tv so I’m not typical when it comes to media immersion.

    I prefer the Muffin Break ‘Bean Poll’ myself – close to the election, easy to enter and probably captures a fairly  representative sample given the omnipresence of the franchise. 🙂 

    • lprent 24.1
      19 July 2011 at 1:25 pm

      The poll was far too early to get much reaction from the CGT as it was taking during the CGT rumour period. There is usually at least a 2-3 week lag between political events and effects on polls.

      I’d count most of it as being the reaction to Labour letting their server get accessed by someone as daft as Whale. If you check back on the timeline, it is about right for that.

      Essentially none of the polling companies give much information about their polling techniques, and if I was in their position – I wouldn’t either. I suspect it’d be too easy to tear their methodology apart these days.

      • Puddleglum 24.1.1
        19 July 2011 at 1:37 pm

        I’d forgotten about the Whaleoil thing. Yes, I guess that could be it – reinforcing the ‘Labour can’t do anything right’ line.

        I despair sometimes about human psychology. We don’t seem well set up to navigate our way through the world we’ve created (media, ‘information’, marketing in a consumer society, etc.).

      • Reality Bytes 24.1.2
        19 July 2011 at 7:25 pm

        As I’ve opined on a couple of posts up, I suspect a lot of it is due to notoriously poor surveying methodology.

        My gut-feeling is these surveys actually favor conservative older generations (retirees living at a fixed address with time on their hands and landlines), hence why a demographic breakdown would be very interesting. Add to that a sample that is representative of a very small actual cross section of society.

        What happens to the statistics of the category of people the ‘nah not interested goodbye’ responses or the people that are hard to reach. Where is the meta-analysis and limitational-critical analysis on how that affects the figures? It appears to be considered not important, these polls just seem to be aimed to support sales of preformatted news articles to make a few dollars, the less effort and cost the better it appears.

  25. Vicky32 25
    19 July 2011 at 11:36 pm

    My gut-feeling is these surveys actually favor conservative older generations (retirees living at a fixed address with time on their hands and landlines)

    I think a more useful breakdown would be location! I think it’s a mistake to assume that all older people are conservative (in my experience, it’s the 60-65 years olds who are conservative, but the 65 and older people aren’t necessarily. I am unemployed (not ‘retired’), home all day with time on my hands, and I have a landline, and I have once in 15 years at the same address got a phone call for a political poll. I assume that’s because the area where I live is 97% State houses, a fact that would be well known.
     

    • Reality Bytes 25.1
      20 July 2011 at 7:25 pm

      Indeed, any elaboration of the data would be most welcome. But it is usually ultra-simplified as being a highly representative snapshot of the entire nations mood. When really the numbers are very small/unrepresentative when you consider all the variables involved. Clarification like age, location, how many did-not-answered’s etc would be most welcome. Better than the headline grabbing “Labour is doomed, and it implys this that and the other, because we did a survey of a few hundy people” headlines.

      I only say my gut feeling about older gens based on my personal discussions with such people whom I know personally.