Daily review 02/08/2021
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5:30 pm, August 2nd, 2021 - 56 comments
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- Property Rights and the Treaty Principles Bill
Property rights – which enable decisions over tangible and intangible assets – are critical to an economy as Why Nations Fail pointed out. Not just private property rights for, as we shall see, they are more complicated than that. Neoliberals argue that private property rights lead to the maximum economic ...2 hours ago - The Hoon around the week to November 22
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Following the 2022 Brazilian general election, election loser Jair Bolsonaro tried to do a Trump, attempting a coup to overturn the election. It failed. But unlike his American friend, he hasn't been allowed to get away with it: The former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro and some of his closest ...3 hours ago - Treasury warns deeper recession worsening Budget deficit
The gift that keeps giving: David Seymour has now opened a split in the coalition over the future of National’s promise to build a new medical school. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / TheKakaKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...10 hours ago
- Weekly Roundup 22-November-2024
It’s another Friday and we’re inching closer to the end of the year. Here’s some of the stories that have caught our attention this week. This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers and ...11 hours ago - Beyond Question?
Record Numbers: The Hīkoi mō te Tiriti, which began at the tip of the North, and the tail of the South, on 11 November, culminated outside Parliament on Tuesday, 19 November 2024, in one of the largest demonstrations in New Zealand’s political history.ACCORDING TO TE ARA, the Ministry of Culture ...11 hours ago - The Rush To Blame “The Activists”
Activists are such easy scapegoats. The right and center have been conditioned for decades to roll their eyes at all protests. The left are easily aggravated over students leading movements they see as belonging to grownups, who have more important concerns like the economy and whether the trains come on ...11 hours ago - Cutting Through An Inundation of Dipshit Racists
Hi,Watching New Zealand from afar offers a strange perspective. It can be a good thing — distance from Aotearoa helped keep me sane while I reported on abuse at New Zealand’s biggest megachurch over the course of a year. It helps fuel my silly podcast. But it can also be ...12 hours ago - This is bad news
The speech yesterday by Treasury’s Chief Economic Advisor warning that the books are in worse shape than forecasted looks like it’s part of a softening-up process for either more cuts or a longer wait to get back into surplus. The speech was a highly unusual public preview of Treasury’s Half-Yearly ...14 hours ago - Skeptical Science New Research for Week #47 2024
Open access notables Projected increase in the frequency of extremely active Atlantic hurricane seasons, Lopez et al., Science Advances: Future changes to the year-to-year swings between active and inactive North Atlantic tropical cyclone (TC) seasons have received little attention, yet may have great societal implications in areas prone to hurricane ...22 hours ago - Chicken Kiev
Chatting in the supermarket this morning, I found I needed to lunge for the chicken drumsticks.Coping mechanisms: who hasn’t felt a greater need for them lately?When it all gets too much, I turn to demonstrating handy butchery hacks.It wasn’t that she’d said anything wrong, our friend, not at all. We ...1 day ago - The year is 2024 and it’s 1984
This is written in response to the highly significant open letter from a group of economists that was today addressed to Christopher Luxon. The year is 2024, and it’s 1984. The country is reeling from a record Olympic medal gold haul, while the globe grapples with the choice of the ...1 day ago - The IPCA has failed
Back in 2022, RNZ took an in-depth look at the "Independent" Police Conduct Authority and its handling of killings by police. These are the most serious test of oversight, and you would expect the police's use of lethal force to receive the most severe scrutiny. But despite the police regularly ...1 day ago
- Thursday 21 November 2024
The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti arrived at Parliament on Tuesday – the size is being debated but estimates range from 42,000 to 100,000. The Prime Minister is defending not attending due to some of the organisers being affiliated with Te Pāti Māori. The national gang patch ban came into force ...1 day ago - ‘These budget cuts are counter-productive and make no sense’
I spoke to former Productivity Chair Nana this morning about the letter he and a group of other economists sent to PM Christopher Luxon to urge the Government to urgently suspend cuts to spending and investment for the sake of the economy, struggling businesses and the wellbeing of vulnerable ...1 day ago
- ACT’s Astroturfing & A Co-ordinated Attack on Te Pati Māori
Unity on the Streets / Unity at the TableAfter the Hīkoi, all three right wing Coalition leaders came together to push the idea that the 42,000 - 50,000 + strong Hikoi was somehow less potent and brave, and more illegitimate than the energy and crowd displayed.Prime Minister Christopher Luxon 20-November: ...1 day ago - Durability of carbon dioxide removal is critical for stabilizing temperatures
This is a re-post from the Climate Brink The world is emitting over 40 gigatons of CO2 per year, contributing to an accelerating warming of the planet. The world needs to cut emissions rapidly to be remotely on track to meet our Paris Agreement goals of limiting warming to well-below 2C, and we ...1 day ago
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I wear my leather jacket like a great big hugRadiating charm - a living cloak of luckIt's the only concrete link with an absent friendIt's a symbol I can wear 'till we meet againOr it's a weight around my neck while the owner's freeBoth protector and reminder of mortalityIt's a ...1 day ago - Throwback Thursday: Will “Auckland Transport” Survive?
With Auckland Transport’s future up in the air under Mayor Wayne Brown’s proposed CCO reform, we’ve dug way back into the archives, to unearth this post originally published in March 2010. As you’ll see, many of the debates that were being had when AT was first proposed continue to ...1 day ago
- Economists call on PM to suspend budget cuts for the sake of the economy
Nicola Willis’ budget cuts are under fire from economists for having no clear rationale and worsening the recession. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 21: The news at ...1 day ago
- The end of policing by consent
National has appointed a new police commissioner. And he explicitly rejects policing by consent: Asked if he subscribed to policing by consent, he said he did not. “I don’t talk about policing by consent. I talk about trust and confidence, and it is fundamentally important that the police have ...2 days ago
- The Treaty Principles Bill: A Who’s Who
David Horatio Waterbed SeymourFringe politician and dweeb transformed successfully by ThinkTank money into a well-oiled soundbite robot.Currently programmed to say: Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Was previously programmed to say:I am a proud libertarian andI am a ...2 days ago - Kinleith mill closure shows need for industrial strategy
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to deliver an economic and industrial strategy for regional manufacturing, rather than just expressing sympathy for job losses, following the announced closure of Kinleith mill in Tokoroa. “The closure Kinleith mill in Tokoroa is not just devastating for ...2 days ago
- 27% of kids going hungry, up from 21% in a year
One in four Kiwi children live in households where food runs out often or sometimes. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, November 20: The lead: The official annual Health Survey found sharp ...2 days ago - Transport modelling is an illusion
This guest post by Tim Adriaansen, an advocate for accessibility and sustainable transport, originally published on LinkedIn and cross posted here with permission. People prefer cars, right? Probably not. Here’s why. Granted, most people in English-speaking countries use a car to get around. This simple reality underpins our transport ...2 days ago
- Young Maori take over
Neither Wellington nor Parliament has ever seen anything like it before. The Police said there were more than 40,000 but however many there were, yesterday’s Hikoi to Parliament was a monumental event. It was almost three times the Foreshore and Seabed martch of 2004 and many,many times bigger than ...3 days ago
- Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Aftermath
The euphoria from yesterday’s hikoi may be transitory, but is no less valuable for that. It is pretty rare for the left to feel itself to be in the overwhelming majority, and speaking as the voice of the people. Lest that momentum be lost, the organisers will no doubt be ...3 days ago - Sabin 33 #3 – Solar panels generate too much waste and will overwhelm landfills
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The Justice Committee has called for submissions on National's racist and constitutionally radical Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill. Submissions can be made at the link above or by post, and are due by Tuesday, 7 January 2025. But I'd get in quick, in case National grows a spine ...3 days ago
- We need to talk about Kevin
All happy families are alike; each unhappy family has a Drunk Uncle Kevin in there somewhere. If your Kevin is anything like the ones I know, he was getting along happily enough without having to think too much about the Treaty Principles Bill apart from bloody good job, onya guys ...3 days ago - The hikoi
Like everyone else (everyone who wasn't there, anyway), I've spent the morning watching the hikoi march on Parliament. The pictures are astounding: parliament grounds and the surrounding streets are full, and there are still people backed up along Lambton Quay. The police are estimating 35,000 people, and that's a floor ...3 days ago
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3 days ago - Discount Code for Webworm Merch!
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There were urgent moves yesterday at Parliament to try and defuse the tension building up over ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill. The Bill’s author, ACT leader David Seymour, told reporters that he understood the Justice Select Committee met yesterday to discuss how long it should take to consider submissions on the ...4 days ago
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4 days ago - Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Arrival, And Tyler Childers
Politicians like to bang on all about the need to heal society’s racial/economic divisions, but in their actions they’re more keen on stoking those divisions, with the Treaty Principles Bill being the classic example. The Bill seeks to dilute the Crown’s responsibilities to Māori at the same time as it ...4 days ago
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4 days ago - Kaamos: Accepted
I appreciate that A Phuulish Fellow has been fairly quiet recently. That’s a combination of two things – comparatively little in the way of relevant material to discuss (at least until The War of the Rohirrim comes out next month), and my general work on The Secret Non-Fiction Writing Project. ...4 days ago - Here’s how governments could fix their Paris climate commitment failures
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- National’s support base is wobbling
If ACT leader David Seymour intended the Treaty Principles Bill to drive a wedge into National’s support base, he may well already be succeeding. By midnight on Thursday after the Maori Party haka in Parliament, National MPs were being deluged with emails and messages from their members calling them out ...5 days ago
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..Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Self-appointed “Bishop” and proto-fascist, Brian Tamaki was at it again on 16 November, blocking Auckland’s southern motorway, SH1.This time, the target of his ire wasn’t the Civil Unions Act; covid lock-downs; mask mandates; or ...5 days ago - Rip up a bill, lead a haka are words to live by
I cannot stop grabbing people by the lapels, or shoulders, or similar, and raving at them about the tiny miracles in my ears.I can hear again! There could not be a more satisfied customer in all the world.In a noisy cafe I am even catching words that Karren cannot, she ...6 days ago - Unintended Consequences
Take the baitYou pay the priceIt's much too lateFor good adviceYou know and I know that our good things' throughBecause there's consequences for what we doConsequences for me and youWriters: Kevin Robert Hayes, David Nagier, Bonnie Adele Hayes.Fallout from the first readingOne News began last night by saying that tens ...6 days ago - Thank you, driver!
Today, Saturday 16th of November, is Auckland Transport’s Bus Driver Appreciation Day! Saturday 16 November marks the third annual Auckland Transport (AT) ‘Bus Driver Appreciation Day’, and this year we are encouraging all of New Zealand to thank their driver or let the bus go first if you are in ...6 days ago
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Hi,If I was to accurately sum up my mental state over the week, I’d just say that I got a huge fright from my own shadow.I’d nipped out for an 11pm neighborhood stroll, just to calm down after a day of stress and screens. The Cure and Fazerdaze’s new record ...6 days ago - We Are Not Listening
The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
1 week ago - More lawlessness from National
On Tuesday, sick of government stonewalling, the Waitangi Tribunal issued a rare court order, ordering the Minister of Health to release unredacted documents within 48 hours showing its reasoning for disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora, the Māori Health Authority. The government's response to the lawful order of a court? Yeah, ...1 week ago
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The Treaty Principles Bill continues to dominate political news, with it passing its first reading in the House. Parliament was briefly suspended and Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke suspended for 24 hours after leading a haka that was joined by opposition MPs and the public in the gallery. Willie ...1 week ago
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And screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingAnd screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingForget me nots, second thoughts live in isolationHeads or tails and fairy tales in my mindAre we we are, are we we are the waiting unknownThe rage and love, the ...1 week ago - The Hoon around the week to November 15
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Day One of the Treaty Principles Bill…and everyone got what they wanted, and did what they liked. Heated words were exchanged. Culturally appropriate acts of outrage were performed. David Seymour got to play the victim card. Willie Jackson got kicked out of class. A comically red-faced Mr Speaker bellowed “Order, ...1 week ago
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Open access notables Microbial solutions must be deployed against climate catastrophe, Peixoto et al., Nature Communications [comment]: The climate crisis is escalating. A multitude of microbe-based solutions have been proposed, and these technologies hold great promise and could be deployed along with other climate mitigation strategies. However, these solutions have ...1 week ago
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The government's Treaty Principles Bill is up for its first reading today - bought forward in a rush in a desperate effort to avoid the hikoi which is currently marching on Wellington. But the Prime Minister won’t be there for it – he’s literally running away to Peru! But he ...1 week ago
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Good morning, and I’m sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days.I’ve been focusing on the Hikoi, and also testing out sentiment on the Treaty Principles Bill. It’s complicated, and the Treaty Principles Bill will be debated in the House today. The Government’s own lawyers have told them the ...1 week ago - Government must vote down ACT Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights
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The State would like to remind you that they are in control. They manage your employment prospects, and can destroy the job market you and yours rely on by mass-cancelling construction projects, cutting funding, and firing a good chunk of our public servants. They wield the mechanisms that provide scrutiny ...1 week ago - The Weight of the World
As the weight of the world Hangs on your shoulders The weight of the world Starts to take over again And over again All that you once loved, now you hate So slowly relearn how to meditate To have and to hold And never let go Can you feel it ...1 week ago - Thursday 14 November 2024
The Treaty Principles Bill is set to have its First Reading in the House today, as the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti continues. More than 40 KCs have written to the Prime Minister and Attorney-General outlining their “grave concerns” about the substance of the Treaty Principles Bill, while an academic and ...1 week ago
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The Government has passed legislation to remove agriculture from the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) while Aotearoa’s reputation on climate action plummets. ...1 day ago - Failed boot camp experiment must end
As legislation to set up boot camps passed its first reading, the Green Party urged the Government to abandon this failed policy experiment for the good of our rangatahi. ...1 day ago
- Gender-affirming care must centre evidence and health needs, not political posturing
The Ministry of Health has today released an evidence brief regarding the use of puberty blockers in gender-affirming healthcare, amid moves by the government to limit access. ...1 day ago
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The National Government is walking away from our manufacturing sector with constant reports of closures and job losses. ...1 day ago
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- Release: Youth mental wellbeing no longer a priority for Child Poverty Minister
Louise Upston has revealed her diminished vision for vulnerable youth against a backdrop of snubbed advice, scrapped priorities, shifted goal posts and thousands more children projected to fall into poverty. ...1 day ago
- Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards
National Government’s backward-looking climate policy has seen New Zealand fall seven places on the Climate Change Performance Index to 41 out of 63 countries measured. ...1 day ago
- Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing
When the Government says it has reduced the number of people in emergency housing, what it means is it is stopping people from accessing it in the first place. ...1 day ago
- Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’
The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...1 day ago
- Release: A historic win for Samoan communities
Labour warmly welcomes the Restoring Samoan Citizenship Bill as it passes its third reading, before becoming law. ...1 day ago
- Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”
The Government has taken a giant step backwards by reinstating live animal exports. ...2 days ago
- Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading
Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...2 days ago
- Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills
The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...2 days ago
- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...2 days ago
- Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch
National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...2 days ago
- Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs
Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...2 days ago
- Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions
Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament
Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons
Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...4 days ago
- Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill
The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...5 days ago
- Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope
The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...1 week ago
- Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...1 week ago
- Stand Up for Te Tiriti
Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...1 week ago
- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...2 weeks ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
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Why Jacinda Ardern sat under a woven mat.
Breath-taking courage.
"Last night’s actions are unheard of by a world leader. Her compassion and humility was beautiful to watch…"
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/02-08-2021/dawn-raids-ceremony-explained-why-jacinda-ardern-sat-under-a-woven-mat/
Agreed. Well said, Robert. Very moving and explanatory article.
Thanks Robert.
What Mac said.
Reading that has mellowed the rant that was forming while I had a shower.
There is no doubt the PM does symbolism extremely well….there is value in that.
a safe place for women
excludes men
pfft
..
zero
offensive in the extreme
I don't get how it's "offensive in the extreme". It is what it is.
I entered the topic, noted it was for women only, and left without reading any of it.
If it's not meant for men to comment on, it's not for men to comment on. View it as a sort of a no tax without representation thing and go read and participate somewhere else.
I had a read of the first one, as allowed in the post. Haven't kept an eye on the latest one. First one seemed to have a bit of a pile-on in the comments.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a vague recollection of occasional other posts where comments were restricted to particular groups – vague inkling of a leftie-only post? I think that might have been here?
Anyway, it's a reasonable way to make sure others can get a word in edge-wise.
I guess I can understand feminists wanting a man free zone, though I take your point it's not really conducive to general deliberation and debate, but big boy trousers and all that.
It doesn't bother me to be maximus offendinatum.
Lefties on The Standard, dedicated posts during the last election when we still had lots of righties around and debate was a bit aggro. They were fun discussions
no problem with their own sandpit but the way it has been constructed is offensive .. see other post .. crude and rude
Sweet pie or dog’s dinner – You either swallow it down or let it chew you up. Your call, obviously.
neither is applicable
Then best order in a bucket of Gaviscon 'cause if shits going down it's probably gonna burn.
Why?
Is it offensive in the extreme? I can think of many more offensive things, ranging from the homelessness crisis, to the potential for ‘uncut ‘males to expose themselves in formerly women’s and children’s changing rooms.
think white breads who drive past their local brown breads school because 'safe'
??????
So nothing on the actual issue. Are you pleased with the advice from SUFW re changes that Govt may be making to the bill? Will this solve the issues/snags/concerns seen by many women about the bill as it stands? What do you think?
https://thestandard.org.nz/womens-space/
Weka’s post 11.1
Or are we going to hark back to the 70s where the next step is for someone to say that women who are concerned have 'no sense of humour'?
100% Shanreagh. Or as a fellow commenters did to me a couple of days back, ie. suggested I sounded "unhinged" and "obsessive"
I asked him if he thought this was possibly gaslighting i.e trying to discredit someone by suggesting they were "unhinged" (crazy). I don't think he has replied as of yet. Maybe someone will suggest valium for me. Just like the 70's.
Asserting that women have something wrong with them when speaking of or claiming rights has a long long history. Numbers of women were classed as hysterical, in mental health terms, way way back. it was particularly used around the suffragette era but before that for women who wouldn't or coukdn't take their (male) assigned place in society.
yes it was a shocking example and I am surprised it was/has not been picked up as an ad hominem attack on you given it's long and well-known use to denigrate the arguments of women. Perhaps there is still time?
just had a look at the comments. Tbf to Andre, he would say that to men too. It's his go to on things he feels strongly about. Imo it's a rhetorical device use to undermine people when someone thinks the ideas need to be suppressed (eg anti-vaxxers) – make out there is something wrong with the person, and Andre does have a pretty tongue in that respect.
Thing about TS is there is a degree to which we have to be thick skinned. We can't moderate every rudeness or ad hom. If it becomes a pattern, or is done in a major way (eg if someone called a woman unhinged for talking about sex based rights under a post about things that impact on women, I'd probably pull them up on it) then it's more likely to get moderated.
Gaslighting imo would be something more sustained, either lots of comments like that targeting one person, or a detailed comment attacking someone.
But thanks for raising this. I will keep an eye out to see if there is a pattern emerging of responses to GCF and sex based rights comments. You can always draw my attention to comments too (drop a link in front of me somewhere and ask me to take a look).
thanks Weka and Shanreagh. It was a one off from Andre. I dealt with it myself by asking did he think it was possible it was gaslighting (I myself am not sure, but think you are right Weka, it needs to be sustained). I asked him not to refer to my mental health again. I don't know if he has seen it.
I am pretty resicillient really. I only mentioned in this forum, because Shanreagh said the thing from the 70's like "can't you women take a joke".
But thanks…….
It's an old argument that we used to hash out here around what sexism is. Vto is saying that having women's space for safety reasons is bigotry against men. In vto's view, sexism is equal sided, just as much against men as women. Saying that women need women's space to be safe from men is offensive to men in the same way that some Pākehā might avoid living in suburbs with lots of Māori or Pasifica people to keep themselves safe. I think that's the gist of it (am mostly guessing, because he didn't actually say).
He doesn't like the framing of the women's posts. Neither of the women's space posts use the word safety, it does get used in comments. Men are free to talk about whatever they want elsewhere on TS, so vto can have at it, but I would guess he's not explaining what he means because it will induce an argument.
you are welcome to your own sandpit – its got nothing to do with that
but suggesting people are unsafe solely because they are male is offensive
no-one said that vto.
que? i certainly read that yesterday eve, though now looking back the reference to 'men' and 'safe' is no longer there. although I do see others who reference the word 'safe' in the comments, implying its previous existence…… .
you haven't deleted it have you weka?
nope. Link or it didn't happen.
well I can't link now as it has disappeared. i dont make things up weka
Looks like you misremembered then.
I've looked in Trash and the only mention of safe in a comment there is a duplicate of a comment still in the front end.
The Women's Space post last edit was on Sunday, a minute within publishing and nothing about safety and men.
My suggestion is next time you do two things: link as you go, and explain what you mean as you go. Otherwise it looks like you are making things up.
I hazard a guess that vto is thinking of this:
Our memories can play havoc with us.
. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-08-2021/#comment-1806434
Yes, but vto said "but suggesting people are unsafe solely because they are male is offensive"
Which isn't what Molly (or anyone) said.
acknowledged weka, I do try to play nice with my buttons that are easily pressed, and which most around here are tediously familiar with. They are genuine buttons to me tho – I see so very many men subjugated, oppressed, abused, kicked and punched, and left in the dirt by society, it just tears at me …
incognito found the line though, thanks
onwards, and best (sincerely) with what you do in the womens space
thanks vto. I understand about the buttons and appreciate your honesty here.
This I understand too. Where we differ I think is that I see the shit that men have to deal with in this regard as being primarily caused by a society that puts men in a whole bunch of boxes that cause them harm. The system treats men badly. We may also differ on what the solutions are.
So you are not going to reply VTO? Substantively? On the issues raised in the proposed amendments to the legislation?
It would be great if you could frame the concerns of women as you see them (following the good advice in the How to debate thread)
In the meantime what do you think of the possible amendments foreshadowed by SUFW that I linked to. How do you think that will meet any concerns?
Shanreagh I wasn't commenting on those issues. You would find however that I am very much on your 'side' on these types of issues. It is only the peripheral issues, such as I did comment on, that get my goat.
Happy to exchange views another time
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018806504/disabled-people-in-relationships-paying-for-the-price-of-love
Oh good. Welfare was meant to support disabled, not leave them guilt ridden or alone for life.
A fair amount of nonsense on both sides after Laurel Hubbard’s loss at the Olympics. This was a good explanation of the advantage issue,
https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422167625640054784?s=21
https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422169346357481473?s=21
So when she wins in a competition,there's a tweet about how transwomen have an amazing advantage over other women. When she doesn't win, now there is a tweet and vid about how she has an outrageous advantage but her "baseline" is weak.
Seems like whether she wins or loses, she can't win.
obviously for the people that think males shouldn't be in women's sports, it's wrong no matter who wins.
You linked to a comment where the debate following was an ad hom.
I'm here for exploring the issues. If people don't want to talk about them, that's fine.
On that, we agree.
It might be informative for you to actually look and the link first, before you make the prophesied rebuttal. (Made before the event was held BTW).
Ross Tucker mentions that eight years ago he too was an advocate for the inclusion of transwomen in the women's category in sport. He then went on to be part of a team that investigated the impacts and consequences of a number of conflicts that arise from the three basic principles of sport: well-being, fairness and inclusion.
It's about 15 minutes long. If you are going to continue to engage, at least have the courtesy to inform yourself so you can dismiss the argument, rather than those making it.
https://t.co/UXUjeXbAh5?amp=1
Might surprise you to learn that I did look at the link.
"Someone found a twitterer who agrees with them" is not particularly persuasive, because there might be fifty people just as qualified (or even moreso) who disagree with that twitterer.
It just reinforces the poster's conviction.
The video link of someone who has worked on panels looking to improve trans inclusion into sports is not only"some twitterer". He outlines how they approached this and why they drew the conclusions they did.
So, once again, the messenger…
Nope, the medium.
Every discipline has experts with different opinions. Some are generally around a broad consensus. Some are fringe, pushing opinions which the facts don't support or are outright contrary to reality.
Twitter, like many social media sites, tends towards promoting opinions to which one naturally agrees. My twitter feed, for example, has been almost empty of anything other than positive mentions of Hubbard. Other people's has likely been the opposite.
So I look for some tweets about Hubbard, but even before I apply my own filters to what I on-share, twitter has already tended to provide me with content that already fits my opinion.
Is this guy's opinion typical of the experts who make up the rest of the panels he's been on? Or is he an outlier? I don't know. How do you know? How does Weka?
As research tools go, Twitter simply serves to reinforce pre-existing opinions.
Jesus, McFlock,
You haven't independently looked him up past that tweet? That's the first thing I do when someone links. Try it. I usually follow up by trying to find original papers or articles. I wouldn't post or repost links that I didn't think to have some relevance or credibility. That's why I don't post links to Auntie Betty's Instagram.
So, not the messenger, now the medium… and still not the message.
My comment wasn't about him.
My comment was about seeking out links that allegedly support one's position, then seeking out other links when the first ones fall down.
ohmahgerd Laurel crushes all her opponents because "male" is now it doesn't matter whether she wins or not because she lost. Contradictory positions each with their own curated twitter expert in support. Should I go looking for Twitterers who agree with me and post that?
Twitter schmitter. It's just the latest iteration of the gish gallop – an easy link that might or might not be a thorough and fair reflection of reality, but when that one's dealt with there are a dozen others.
Doubling down, a la Collins.
The link is not about Hubbard herself. In fact, your comment makes lie to your claim to have looked at it (unless by looking you meant reading the tweet, not actually watching the video). In which case, disingenuous.
We can sit together and moan about the level of fatuous comment on Twitter and social media. But the question here is are you approaching this discussion in good faith?
Respect for open dialogue and basic intellectual curiosity should have motivated you to click the link after searching credentials. Then a discussion on content could take place seeking resolution.
You spend more time posting while uninformed of the actual (not ascribed) concern arguments, than it would take to discuss them.
At this stage, is there any way anyone could raise concerns with you and have them respectfully discussed?
Well, after the one six weeks ago where I had to look at the partial result sheet from a single event, find a repository of weightlifting results (which I never knew existed), identify the specific event from which those results had been lifted, and then find they were contrary to the rest of Hubbard's record (much closer when in her actual weight range, e.g. the Olympics) which strongly indicated that the twittered snapshot had been cherry-picked… this time I didn't feel like putting in that level of work to look at a tweet that was shared because someone happened to agree with it. I read it, watched it, ignored the appeals to authority, and remained unimpressed. You want me to do a lit review? Nope.
I suppose providing a link to something in text that demonstrates the commenter actually did enough to get a feel of the general direction of wider discussion within the specific research community might work. Something other than posting a tweet that was shared with one because the algorithm knew one already agreed with it.
You're still missing the point that a sample bias in an evidence review can lead to as many problems as it does in data. And social media, as a source, builds links around a sample bias.
You are determined to not discuss the actual subject.
How convenient that a Phd in Sports Science can be dismissed because he uses Twitter.
Lit review? No thanks. I have grave concerns about your reading ability and comprehension as it is. Let's leave the possibility I am wrong on the table.
"You are determined to not discuss the actual subject."
Indeed.
There's nothing wrong with twitter as a source so long as one understands how to use twitter as a source. I don't see it too different from TS, echo chamber that it is at times. Someone says something, we still have to assess the usefulness and veracity of it. It's not that hard, so I don't really know what McFlock is on about. And tbh, not going to put much effort in to understanding because while talking about twitter and algorithms and critical thinking would be an interesting convo at another time, here it just feels like a derail.
If the tweeps expert in their field on twitter aren't good enough sources, then there's probably not much to be done 😉
People can talk about what they want (there's no obligation for McFlock to talk about the issues raised), my links were to discuss the fairness or otherwise of males competing in women's sport so when someone responds to that I'll probably be interested again.
Because individual doctors can never be wrong, even in their speciality?
On occasion. people have posted articles (even peer reviewed articles) or hard data (even partial data, e.g. six weeks ago). Findings of courts and various bodies. That sort of thing I can look at with some hope of learning something.
But if you don't get that most social media is designed around handing you stuff and connections that reinforce your beliefs, then you're in the queue for a tinfoil hat. Because sooner or later a preconception that was mildly held and slightly incorrect will be watered, filtered and cultivated into some prize-winning nuts.
I understand how social media works, and I think it's possible to take that into account via critical thinking.
Scammers love people who think they know how the trick is done. It makes things easier.
I don’t get this. Laurel Hubbard qualified for the Olympics and those standards are understandably high as Eliza McCartney can attest, for example, who won Bronze only 5 years ago, but failed to meet the threshold this time.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/300337293/tokyo-olympics-agony-tears-for-eliza-mccartney-olivia-mctaggart-as-games-bid-misfires
In other words, why would Hubbard’s “base level” be too low!?
Its a weird analogy. Base is the athletes performance on the day. Advantage is a basically constant performance boost (usually zero).
You have ascribed meanings to both 'base' and 'advantage', that are not what was described in the link. So I'm guessing you haven't really looked before commenting. Makes your blitheness a dismissal of commenting, rather than content. Becoming a bit of a habit on TS it seems.
I this Laurel is likely to need a great deal of support after the loss which I hope she gets