Flag distraction result today

Written By: - Date published: 8:30 am, March 24th, 2016 - 135 comments
Categories: identity, john key - Tags:

The preliminary results of the flag referendum / distraction are out around 8pm this evening (possibly here). “Turnout” has been reasonably high. Bragging rights I guess to whomever best predicts the outcome.

I thought some salient points were made by Geoff Neal in this Stuff piece:

The missing vote in New Zealand’s flag referendum

This Thursday, March 24, the second flag referendum results will be revealed and supporters of our old flag will proudly boast “two thirds of New Zealanders voted to keep the existing flag”. Right? Wrong. Very wrong. Such a result will simply mean two thirds voted not to change it to the alternate blue/black fern design.

In fact many people who hate the old flag have already voted for it as the lesser of two evils. Better to stay with ol’ average and have the chance of getting this right next time (and despite political intimidation, there will be a next time), than change to the new slightly-better-than-average design for the rest of our lives.

The sad thing is that, despite two national referendums, we won’t actually have a single electoral statistic that tells us how many Kiwis support a change of flag. It wasn’t asked in the first referendum. It wasn’t asked in the second referendum. …

The polls suggest that the current flag will be retained – although I’d be surprised if the massive barrage of pro-change publicity and scaremongering hadn’t had an effect.

Key is conveniently leaving the country for some “time off” – the very same evening. He insists that a public rejection of his campaign for change wouldn’t damage his legacy, leading many to pose the obvious question – what legacy?

Anyway, the great flag distraction will eventually be over (after the postmortems of course). Then perhaps we can all get back to focusing on stuff that actually matters, like say: poverty and inequality in NZ, our environment and climate change, our wobbly economy and the dairy crisis, the future of health and education, fair employment conditions and equity, how to reduce child and domestic abuse, the need for ethical and competent government, planning for the future, and so on…

135 comments on “Flag distraction result today ”

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  1. Phil 1
    24 March 2016 at 8:47 am

    I’m picking the result will be a 12-point margin to the current flag: 56-44.

    • BM 1.1
      24 March 2016 at 8:54 am

      Yep, all the oldies still want to be British.

      • weka 1.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 8:56 am

        and the young ones don’t want to drive off the cliff in a bus, so they’re voting to keep the flag too.

        • BM 1.1.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 8:58 am

          Young people don’t vote.

          • weka 1.1.1.1.1
            24 March 2016 at 9:09 am

            yes they do.

            • gsays 1.1.1.1.1.1
              24 March 2016 at 12:36 pm

              thats right weka, our young fella was rapt to be able to vote in this referendum.
              he got my voting papers, filled them out and dutifully posted them in.

              cant say which way he voted for sure, but conversations show he sees it as a political distraction.

          • You_Fool 1.1.1.1.2
            24 March 2016 at 9:09 am

            According to the stats from the last election approx 2/3 of young voters do in fact vote.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.1.3
            24 March 2016 at 12:20 pm

            You wish

        • Chooky 1.1.1.2
          24 March 2016 at 10:12 am

          +100 weka…and the “young ones” are the future of New Zealand….which has a proud history of working class egalitarianism (despite the pimples) and should not be trashed

          ….Both my “young ones” who are critical and bolshie critters but also thoughtful young adults voted to keep our New Zealand flag

          ….on anti TPPA demonstrations , I was surprised at how many Maori were waving our New Zealand flag…for them it is a symbol of the Treaty and New Zealand’s ongoing obligations to our founding legal and cultural values

          jonkeys overseas corporate bankster takeover of New Zealand …NO WAY!…flag the phony away

      • vto 1.1.2
        24 March 2016 at 9:18 am

        BM you cock “Yep, all the oldies still want to be British.” , it was your lot who recently brought back the British knighthoods and crap. It is your lot who still want to be British, especially John Key. Bores

      • Eralc 1.1.3
        24 March 2016 at 9:49 am

        at what age do you classify people as ‘oldies’?

    • Bearded Git 1.2
      24 March 2016 at 12:46 pm

      58-42 for me. Dunne is right we should vote soon on a republic and flag at the same time.

  2. weka 2
    24 March 2016 at 8:53 am

    How about we compile a list of John Key’s actual legacy.

    I’ll start with this, a police video where a child actor pretends to eat out of a rubbish bin and gets ignored by passers by. Legacy #1 a NZ where too many people just don’t care (see also Bill’s recent posts on WINZ, housing and fair society).

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/social-experiment-shows-hundreds-ignoring-homeless-boy-in-new-zealand

    • BM 2.1
      24 March 2016 at 8:57 am

      Everyone used to care when Labour was in power, we didn’t have poor people either.

      Those were the golden years.

      • weka 2.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 9:19 am

        I’m not talking about Labour you numpty.

        • adam 2.1.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 9:25 am

          Numpty has framing issues, it comes from having his head stuck up his own ideological orifice to long.

      • North 2.1.2
        24 March 2016 at 9:41 am

        You’re having excellent bowel motions this morning BM.

      • locus 2.1.3
        24 March 2016 at 10:13 am

        yes BM… they were golden years. Helen Clark was a principled, considerate and highly intelligent Labour prime minister – and during her 9 years as leader of our nation we were more united, more caring, and there was pride in being an independent pacific nation with a strong cultural identity

        under national’s reign NZ has become a divided and depressing place ruled by a tinpot dinner-party elite

        imo key now represents everything that is wrong and sick in NZ

        have you any idea of how this ‘money is everything’, dirty politics, gutless brand of me me me, pony tail pulling, shower peeing, word slurring, blatant forelock tugging to imperialism has created a laughable image overseas for our beautiful country

        • Expat 2.1.3.1
          24 March 2016 at 12:40 pm

          Locus

          So wonderful to hear some truths about Labour for a change, every thing you state is absolutely correct, keep up the positive narrative.

      • Liberal Realist 2.1.4
        24 March 2016 at 2:20 pm

        BM, why do you try and frame everything as partisan? Are you here just to troll or are you genuinely seeking debate and discussion? Do you actually not give a shit that successive governments in NZ have failed and continue to fail our most vulnerable citizens?

        How is it that right wingers turn their blinkers on when their lot is in power? You know there are centre-right governments who actually govern in the public interest? As someone of the left, I can acknowledge this even though I don’t agree with right wing ideology. Why are right wingers seemingly incapable of admission to the fact that the government they voted for & support are fucking over the most vulnerable?

        My point is, the Key government does not govern in the public interest. I’m sure you understand this yet you always drag out the ‘Labour …’ card. Are you incapable of critical objective thought or is it just easier following John Key’s example?

    • miravox 2.2
      24 March 2016 at 9:59 am

      #2 Pulling the ladder up by cutting funding for post secondary / second chance education

    • weka 2.3
      24 March 2016 at 11:50 am

      #3

      Felix Geiringer ‏@BarristerNZ 1 min1 minute ago

      From now on, if any PM anywhere says something that is blatantly untrue we can just call it, “doing a Key.” #Legacy

      https://twitter.com/BarristerNZ/status/712772721763979264

  3. Sabine 3
    24 March 2016 at 8:58 am

    After the flag debacle it will be Pandas. Lot’s o Pandas. Or something like this.

    • miravox 3.1
      24 March 2016 at 9:29 am

      lots o Pandas! Courtesy of these ones? 😀

      http://www.zoovienna.at/news/pandas-haben-sich-gepaart-2016/

      I can’t believe this showed up in my FB feed today.

    • mary_a 3.2
      24 March 2016 at 1:27 pm

      @ Sabine – yes it will be pandas soon. However, FJK is going to have to get this one out there pretty quick, if he wants to distract public attention away from the “prominent NZer’s” court case, which begins on Monday 4 April.

      It will be all go for Most Beloved Leader, when he slithers back into the country after spending time on his knees grovelling, brown nosing etc, in Washington!

      • Sabine 3.2.1
        24 March 2016 at 2:31 pm

        i myself am very keen on the ‘prominent NZ’lers’ case of entertainment. Popcorn, Vodka n Orange and othe assorted nibbles ready at the hand.

        4th o April, only a few more sleeps.

        • McFlock 3.2.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 2:36 pm

          dunno about the snack food and entertainment value.

          ISTR the allegations are pretty fucked up. The vodka might be required, though.

          • Liberal Realist 3.2.1.1.1
            24 March 2016 at 3:40 pm

            “ISTR the allegations are pretty fucked up. The vodka might be required, though”

            Agreed. Perhaps a ‘sick bag’ as well as Vodka?

          • sabine 3.2.1.1.2
            24 March 2016 at 7:35 pm

            the allegation are the usual. the vodka is for not throwing a brick at the tv/computer/radio.
            the allegation for me are not more fucked up then the standard allegations about this type of crime that get very little mention, nor punishment in NZ.
            Someone stated yesterday that they geezer who lived in the Titirangi Kauri got a $ 1000 fine, but the geezer with the tens of thousands of child porn images gets nothing cause he is a good father. I don’t expect anything to happen to the prominent NZ’ler. These types of allegation and crimes in NZ don’t get prosecuted nor punished. A bit of a show for the plebs, but that is it.

        • Rosie 3.2.1.2
          24 March 2016 at 4:02 pm

          Yeah, dunno Sabine. Those victims have had a really long and delayed wait for justice. They come first.

          Definitely all for popcorn poli moments under different circumstance. Lets have another repeat of Anti Government February! YEEEAAAHH!

          So the preliminary results for flag fail are at 8pm ish? I don’t think I can wait that long for the mini bubbly I purchased for the occasion. Might have to have a preliminary celebration! Think the result will be closer than we are anticipating.

  4. vto 4
    24 March 2016 at 9:19 am

    It has always been clear that John Key is a coward.

    You would never want to be with him in a battle….

    And here he is again fleeing ….

    • b waghorn 4.1
      24 March 2016 at 9:55 am

      If we get real lucky the spinless toad will stay gone.

    • kenny 4.2
      24 March 2016 at 12:43 pm

      A coward and a liar. And a sociopath. And a creep. Did I mention liar?

      He would make a great ‘miles behind the front General’.

  5. Stuart Munro 5
    24 March 2016 at 9:21 am

    A grown-up PM wouldn’t sulk. He wouldn’t run off overseas like a scolded puppy. He wouldn’t bitch about flag change opponents. He would probably try to sell the result as a ‘triumph for democratic process’ and try not to dissolve in his own bile. Moonbeam would be wise to make herself scarce.

    • North 5.1
      24 March 2016 at 9:50 am

      As he did indeed on the night of the Northland by-election. Ran off to the cricket in Oz wasn’t it ? Didn’t even have the balls to hang around and take it on the chin with his candidate Osborne. Saw that poor used guy going into the supermarket the other day. Reflexively acknowledged him and wondered what he now really really thinks about the gutless and relentlessly corrupting man-child PM.

      • Liberal Realist 5.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 3:47 pm

        “Saw that poor used guy going into the supermarket the other day. Reflexively acknowledged him and wondered what he now really really thinks about the gutless and relentlessly corrupting man-child PM.”

        Pretty sure Osbourne would eagerly engage with Key and National again if the opportunity presented itself. It’s Labour’s fault you see – particularly those nasty Labour voters who voted for Winston to keep MO and National out. Keys word is divine in the minds of the devout.

  6. locus 6
    24 March 2016 at 9:33 am

    a few days out….. Washington via Hawaii hideyhole

  7. TC 7
    24 March 2016 at 9:45 am

    Key never fronts bad news if he can get others to, maybe its findlaysons turn as he strikes me as the last one to place his thumb on his forehead in cabinet being such a dweeb.

    • North 7.1
      24 March 2016 at 9:54 am

      Finlayson ?

      You mean the snortingly haughty Lady Grantham of Tinakori ?

      • vto 7.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 10:03 am

        lol

        willy nilly finnlyson

        even 10 year old children know better than him when it is right to apologise

        he needs to backtrack his education

      • Chromophore 7.1.2
        24 March 2016 at 1:07 pm

        Oh that’s great. Now, every time I see Finlayson’s arrogant face I will remember your gem of a comment. Thank you.

  8. Matthew Whitehead 8
    24 March 2016 at 10:30 am

    I don’t expect we’ll change. I don’t expect it to be a landslide though, maybe 10 points difference at maximum. On the one hand, I’m glad this referendum has exposed the unpopular side of John Key to the nation. On the other hand, I would have actually liked a less colonial flag. (although ideally, not the mess chosen in the phase 1 referendum, lol) So I guess technically we can’t lose?

  9. Dazzer 9
    24 March 2016 at 10:31 am

    To me the highlight of new Labour’s political strategy. There is no policy or no policy with integrity. Labour supported a change of flag at the last election. However, quite clearly, there is one caveat – that can only happen on Labour’s watch.

    Labour will end up with egg on its face. Having fought tooth and nail to undermine this process, Labour has zero credibility on this issue. Sadly, we can add race baiting, economic insanity and whole bunch of other examples that simply demonstrate Labour has no coherent or consistent strategy apart from opposing Key.

    • weka 9.1
      24 March 2016 at 10:41 am

      “However, quite clearly, there is one caveat – that can only happen on Labour’s watch.”

      That’s a lie. Labour object to how it has been done. Go look up what actually happened.

      “Sadly, we can add race baiting, economic insanity and whole bunch of other examples that simply demonstrate Labour has no coherent or consistent strategy apart from opposing Key.”

      Yes, Labour have some issues on ethnicity. But it’s patently ridiculous to claim that Labour are all about attacking Key in a week when they’ve run a conference on one of the most important issues for NZ. I bet you haven’t even bothered looking at that, because why do something useful when you can just come online and do smeary undermining shit from your own prejudices.

    • Hanswurst 9.2
      24 March 2016 at 10:43 am

      You may possibly be right about much of that. One thing you are not right about, however, is that Labour will end up with egg on its face. Rightly or wrongly, the flag issue is stapled to Key’s face in the public and media consciousness, and he is the only one who stands to lose anything.

    • Stuart Munro 9.3
      24 March 2016 at 11:25 am

      Gnats talking about integrity – laughable.

      If Labour or the Greens had run a flag process it would have been about the flag NZ wanted, and it would have taken as long as necessary, it wouldn’t have been squeezed into Key’s last term.

      Key made it about his nauseating lack of character so NZ rejected it.

      • Matthew Whitehead 9.3.1
        24 March 2016 at 11:34 am

        Key bears a lot of the blame- but Labour chose to return fire on him after he politicised the process. They are to blame for becoming hostile to the process, introducing this meme that the yes/no question should come first- which because nobody would know what “yes” means, would sabotage the whole referendum. They also proposed that we vote on the flag design using an FPP system instead of an STV system- what reason is there to do that other than to make the referendum less representative?

        They also nominally supported adding Red Peak to the phase one ballot, but tried to hold that change hostage to their proposed referendum-sabotaging plans. All in all, I am as unhappy with Labour’s decisions on the referendum part of this debate as I am with National’s cronyism on the panel side of this debate.

        Also, I expect that the proposed new flag would have been controversial whoever ran the process, it just would have been LESS controversial under a properly-run panel.

        • BM 9.3.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 12:25 pm

          The panel was chosen by a cross party group of politicians.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.3.1.1.1
            24 March 2016 at 12:58 pm

            Wrong again, BM.

            Initially nominated by a cross-party group, the actual members of the tea-towel committee were appointed solely by the nats:

            “The Government has appointed 12 New Zealanders as members of the Flag Consideration Panel which will engage with the public about a possible new New Zealand flag, Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says.”

            https://www.national.org.nz/news/news/media-releases/detail/2015/02/25/flag-consideration-panel-members-announced

            • BM 9.3.1.1.1.1
              24 March 2016 at 1:23 pm

              From the link

              Who’s on the Cross Party MPs’ Group (CPG) and what do they do?

              The CPG made nominations for the Flag Consideration Panel and has been involved in the development of the draft New Zealand Flag Referendums Bill, making recommendations to the Responsible Minister as necessary. The Cross Party Group includes these Members of Parliament:

              Jonathan Young (Chair) National
              Hon Trevor Mallard Labour
              Dr Kennedy Graham Green
              Marama Fox Maori
              David Seymour ACT
              Hon Peter Dunne United Future

              New Zealand First opted not to take part.

              So you’re saying National disregarded the people the CPG recommended?

              I didn’t know that and I’m surprised there wasn’t more of an outcry.

              • Matthew Whitehead …
                24 March 2016 at 3:20 pm

                BM- you can absolutely make bad picks from a good group of nominees by over-representing nominees from certain backgrounds. I highly doubt that the opposition allowed the nominations to go in without putting in some names that understood visual design and flags, yet somehow we got a panel that was composed entirely of prominent individuals with no experience in those fields.

                • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                  24 March 2016 at 5:23 pm

                  Exactly, the pool of nominees was cross-party, the actual picks from that pool – the government.

              • McFlock …
                24 March 2016 at 3:27 pm

                Why would you expect an outcry?

                It’s not as if the pm ignored SSC recommendations in order to appoint a previously unmentioned crony as head of one of our intelligence services. It’s just a fucking flag panel.

            • Expat 9.3.1.1.1.2
              24 March 2016 at 1:24 pm

              +1

              BM is a RW’er, and lying comes naturally to them.

          • Matthew Whitehead 9.3.1.1.2
            24 March 2016 at 3:11 pm

            BM, the CPG didn’t choose the panel, they made nominations, and the government chose the panel. Most likely the opposition nominated several people who were qualified, as well as several ordinary New Zealanders who could round out the viewpoints on the panel. You’re also misreading what I posted- Key politicised the process and screwed up in appointing the panel, but he didn’t politicise the process BY screwing up in who he appointed to the panel. 😉 The politicisation happened when he made this referendum about his legacy as PM rather than what New Zealanders actually want to have as one of our most important national symbols.

            They ended up appointing a group that had no relevant qualifications to choosing a flag design. Now, you expect to have prominent kiwis who aren’t experts on a panel like this- but you wouldn’t expect them to dominate, let alone exclusively make up the panel. I would have wanted people from different schools of thought in the design community, and hopefully at least one vexillologist, if not two. The panel was also extremely well remunerated for its relatively minor role, and while they arguably did a pretty decent job picking a long list of flags, it was widely acknowledged that their short list was insufficiently diverse, to the point that the government had to extend the amount of choices they could make so that the most popular option left off it could be included.

            This is emblematic of the problems National often runs into when seeking advice- because they don’t trust the public sector sufficiently, they’re overly enamored with shoulder-tapping individuals they consider “prominent,” and offering to overpay them. That practice carries over into their appointments process. Sometimes they luck out and the prominent individuals really are qualified- but too often, they get a bunch of people who just screw things up at large cost.

            • BM 9.3.1.1.2.1
              24 March 2016 at 3:28 pm

              Couple of points.

              The job of the flag committee was to come up with a selection of new flags that would have a chance of putting up a good show against the existing flag

              The only way to achieve that was to pick a theme and obviously from feedback they received the fern was the most preferred symbol of NZ, probably followed by the Koru.

              Having a theme instead of an assortment of different styles would mean that if someones flag of choice missed out, there’s still a chance that person may vote for the flag that goes forth to challenge the existing flag, it’s not their favorite, but it’s still a fern design.

              It’s probably the only way with a democratic vote that a challenger would have any chance of beating the incumbent

              Also

              I think National has good grounds to not trust the pubic sector, they all seem to be full of raving lefties who actively work to undermine the Government.

              It’s nothing but leaks and industrial action, no wonder National likes to do everything with private contractors, the public service just can’t seem to stay politically neutral.

              • Matthew Whitehead …
                24 March 2016 at 3:44 pm

                No, the job of the flag committee was to come up with selections for alternative flags that represented New Zealand. It was up to New Zealanders to decide which one would be competitive, not the panel.

                I completely disagree that a “theme” was necessary among the final options. Yes, the most popular symbol- which was unarguably the fern- should have had two distinct choices available for it give they were only allowed by the legislation to nominate four onto the shortlist. (another dumb idea, people have enough space in their heads to decide between at least six different choices- evidence shows that when you get to about ten to twelve is when things start to get confusing even if the choices are still distinct) But you should give a chance to bolder options too- hence why Red Peak was popular with a vocal minority. I didn’t like the design personally that much, but I agreed it deserved to make the shortlist. Identifying working themes was a good process for the long list. They should really have been breaking that shortlist up into three or four working themes, and then choosing the best option from each theme for us.

                They were also completely gormless to put in the same option twice. There’s no arguing that that was silly, even people who like Lockwood’s design agree that one colour scheme was enough for the shortlist.

                And then there’s the fact that the only design that wasn’t a fern was a Koru- which is a sylised unfurling fern, lol, so in symbolic terms *all* of the chosen designs were ferns.

                As to National having grounds not to trust the public sector- please. I have worked in the public sector, and political neutrality is a HUGE deal. You don’t get hired nowadays if you can’t hack being politically neutral. Plenty of left-wing individuals faithfully try and meet the stated goals and priorities of the current government. If leaking happens, it’s because there is a good-faith belief that the government is genuinely doing something immoral or illegal, and that’s what a good employee is supposed to do under those circumstances. The correct action for the government is to first ponder whether their conduct is both legal and ethical if leaks are a problem, not simply go after the perpetrators. This is exactly why we have protections for whistle-blowers under the law.

        • lprent 9.3.1.2
          24 March 2016 at 7:24 pm

          Look at the 1992 referendum on electoral reform.

    • kenny 9.4
      24 March 2016 at 4:54 pm

      Labour would like to change the flag if due process was followed i.e. first find out if a majority of the general public wanted to change the flag. If they do then proceed further, not follow the John Key process we are just going through.

  10. Expat 10
    24 March 2016 at 12:49 pm

    A negative outcome for NZ will result in some serious questions being raised about the integrity of the electoral office, the independent polling has been quite clear about the outcome, I simply don’t trust anything associated with Key, history shows us he is quite happy to manipulate outcomes for his own benefit.

    • Whispering Kate 10.1
      24 March 2016 at 3:03 pm

      Expat – quite agree with you, being the cynic I am. Polls are dubious so I wouldn’t bother your head about them. If the new flag reigns supreme, once again I will reiterate, that approaching the Auckland Harbour Bridge with a stiff breeze, the new flag is a dog, a mish mash of insipid watery blue and white which merges into grey. Whether people dislike the old flag at least it is vivid and colourful and has a sort of Mana. A new flag would have been fine but couldn’t they have, at least, got the vibrancy of the colours right and designed a flag instead of a tea towel. Its a shame really because the design is terrible. A white feather which represents cowardice, its awful.

      • Matthew Whitehead 10.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 3:55 pm

        I really wish people would stop with the white feather comparison. A silver fern looks nothing like a white feather, and even if I would have preferred a different style of fern to the Lockwood design, it’s still clearly a fern. Even the fishbone criticism makes more sense. 😉

        I agree with you the colour choices are not ideal, (mostly because I’d rather not have any blue, and if we do have it, not that eyeshore shade) but it’s still like fifty times better as a flag purely for not having the Union Jack on it, at least in my book.

        • GregJ 10.1.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 5:51 pm

          The white feather comparison is perfectly valid.

          It’s anecdotal & I’ve relayed this story before here but I live in the Middle East and while showing my Arab staff the four choices for the first referendum one of them asked what the “white feather” was for and did it come from the funny New Zealand bird. As an experiment I just walked across the road to the Costa Coffee shop and showed the 2 baristas (one Filipino & one Indian) the 2 choices in the 2nd referendum and asked them what the symbol was on the first flag. Both said it was a feather – like the design they make on the milk foam in a flat white!

          There was another person who commented here last year who operates a tourist business in the South Island who also made mention of how frequently tourists ask what the deal is about the “white feather” symbol they see everywhere.

          The fern on the various flag designs is so stylised it doesn’t look anything like a silver fern (actually I’m beginning to wonder how many people have ever gone out into the NZ bush and actually bloody seen the underside of a silver fern). At least it is clearer on the NZ Coat of Arms because it actually depicts it more naturally as it appears in nature with its top (green) side up.

    • gsays 10.2
      24 March 2016 at 4:08 pm

      i agree expat.
      my cynical side sees this as a way to discredit current system and introduce … electronic voting.

    • Expat 10.3
      24 March 2016 at 5:09 pm

      Apologies all, for my cynicism, but we are talking about JK.

      I would like to see a new Flag for NZ, but we need to separate ourselves from the monarchy first and become a republic, a new flag would be the celebration of the huge constitutional change we have gone through.

      NZ still needs to have a serious discussion on this issue (becoming a republic), and if a referendum was required to decide on embarking on the journey to a republic, I think a minimum 70% majority would be required to get it over the line, giving only a small minority against the change.

      We need someone of high character, completely bipartisan and highly respected by the public with the skills to initiate the conversation on this topic, we don’t want or need divisiveness.

      Perhaps we’ll get a new govt next year, and potentially, any opposition party could adopt a policy to promote the initiating of a republic between now and then, I think it could be vote winner.

  11. mary_a 11
    24 March 2016 at 1:34 pm

    FJK’s Chief of Propaganda, Steven “Lord Haw Haw” Joyce will be the face of NatzKEY, to explain the defeat of FJK’s futile flag change effort!

  12. The Real Matthew 12
    24 March 2016 at 1:55 pm

    I’ll go with 63-37 in favour of keeping the current flag

    Should run a sweepstake

  13. Myrtle 13
    24 March 2016 at 2:22 pm

    78-22

  14. Phineas 14
    24 March 2016 at 2:42 pm

    74-26

    “Mr Key said he would not be disappointed in New Zealanders if the current flag was retained.” RNZ

    Key will not be disappointed in me oh joy!

  15. TopHat 15
    24 March 2016 at 3:06 pm

    76-24

  16. Magisterium 16
    24 March 2016 at 3:14 pm

    I voted for change. I don’t care if John Key is for it, against it, or indifferent – I want the Union Jack gone.

    • rod 16.1
      24 March 2016 at 4:17 pm

      No doubt you would accept a Knighthood though, eh Maggi.

      • Magisterium 16.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 4:34 pm

        Any nation that would knight me for something deserves to have me associated with it.

    • kenny 16.2
      24 March 2016 at 4:59 pm

      Why?

      • Magisterium 16.2.1
        24 March 2016 at 5:19 pm

        In general, I want NZ to grow up and grown-up countries don’t have other countries’ flags on their flags.

        More personally and as previously posted, my great-great-grandmother and my great-great aunt were bayonetted to death at Orakau and buried in a mass grave by soldiers wearing the Union Jack.

        • Gangnam Style 16.2.1.1
          24 March 2016 at 6:08 pm

          You really feel that strongly about the Union Jack? My great-great-grandfather was an Irish Fencible who came to NZ to fight for the English in the Land Wars yet I feel no guilt even tho I have his last name, & why should I? I would love a new flag but voted for the current because the White Fern design is atrocious & the whole thing has been an utter shambles.

          • Magisterium 16.2.1.1.1
            24 March 2016 at 6:31 pm

            My grandfather, the grandson of the woman killed by British troops at Orakau, fought at Gallipoli, got shot, survived, got sent to the Western Front, got gassed, survived, and made it home to die and be buried in Aotearoa. His headstone bears a silver fern.

        • kenny 16.2.1.2
          24 March 2016 at 6:49 pm

          I would have thought that a grown up country and its people would be mature enough to recognize the accomplishments of the main builders of this nation and not begrudge them the recognition they deserve. A place on the flag of NZ is a small price to pay for that.

          My grandfather was killed by the Germans in WW1 but I don’t feel any animosity towards them at all, thats what happens in war, people get killed. My grandmother and father probably felt some animosity but I don’t remember any. Maybe its time for you to come to terms with it, if you can.

  17. McFlock 17
    24 March 2016 at 3:18 pm

    56-44 in favour of current flag.

    • Rosie 17.1
      24 March 2016 at 4:10 pm

      Thats yourself and Phil that have gone with 56-44 in favour the current flag. Being a pessimist I’ll go with that option. Happy to see it higher of course 😀

  18. happynz 18
    24 March 2016 at 3:20 pm

    52 – 48 for the current New Zealand flag with several thousand disqualified ballots with alternative suggestions (mostly representations of genitalia).

  19. Ovid 19
    24 March 2016 at 3:22 pm

    62-38 to retain the current flag

  20. Bill 20
    24 March 2016 at 3:25 pm

    58/42

  21. Paul 21
    24 March 2016 at 3:26 pm

    56/44
    Hope it’s more though….

  22. b waghorn 22
    24 March 2016 at 3:31 pm

    52 to 48 the Lockwood wins. Just because someone has to.:-)

    • Expat 22.1
      24 March 2016 at 5:16 pm

      I bet the odds are much better to gamble, if the underdog comes through, but I don’t know how the NZ public would handle the change.

  23. ankerawshark 23
    24 March 2016 at 3:55 pm

    65 – 35…….Old flag stays.

  24. Observer (Tokoroa) 24
    24 March 2016 at 3:57 pm

    Court Query
    .
    With regard to The Prominent NZ’ds Court case, is the accused well known to Mr Key?

    Will the hearing likely be unsavoury and somewhat (however remotely) in keeping with our Prime Minister’s frequently bizarre behaviour?

    I hope John Key doesn’t fiddle with President Obama’s daughters while he is in Washington. We have suffered enough global humiliation from this incompetent wretch of a PM.

    • Ovid 24.1
      24 March 2016 at 4:08 pm

      With regard to The Prominent NZ’ds Court case, is the accused well known to Mr Key?

      The trial date is set for 4 April. Given suppression is in place to protect the identity of the victims, I suspect the accused will be granted permanent name suppression.

      • Observer (Tokoroa) 24.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 4:29 pm

        .
        Thanks Ovid

        . I had no idea that it was a name suppression case. So we won’t even know if the accused is a member of National’s caucus, or some other circus.

        How good is secrecy !

  25. gsays 25
    24 March 2016 at 4:11 pm

    ok.
    54-46 to the new design.
    sorry b waghorn for picking yr nose.

  26. AsleepWhileWalking 26
    24 March 2016 at 4:19 pm

    Since they aren’t bound by the result either way, I predict the new flag will in fact bare a striking resemblance to the N (with sideways Z + four red Southern Cross stars) from the National Party.

  27. Stuart Munro 27
    24 March 2016 at 4:23 pm

    New flag wins 70/30 – Key changes the result to the Lockwood flag as a dry run for rigging the election.

    • Chooky 27.1
      24 March 2016 at 4:32 pm

      lol…it would be more trouble for him that what it would be worth…it would absolutely prove what everyone knows already

  28. rod 28
    24 March 2016 at 5:08 pm

    I wonder if Mike, Audrey and Ritchi are doing the counting.

  29. Noah 29
    24 March 2016 at 5:15 pm

    Some ten days ago,our Prime Minister,on the morning radio and tele shows,look what has been lost and WHAT THE PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND,that if we vote to change the flag,it will only happen when we become a republic,and that is not going to happen in my life time.Dance of the desperate,as his support flags.

    Yet even all this last day he saying the morning Radio shows , AND EVERY ONE AFTER,well im unusual butterflies.Our internal polling says its close.If it was a general election it would be called blatant interference in a attempt to influence those late voters choice.But the dance of the desperate has all shapes to throw, in its desperation, to be won.

  30. Lanthanide 30
    24 March 2016 at 5:16 pm

    59/41 to keep.

  31. UncookedSelachimorpha 31
    24 March 2016 at 5:27 pm

    Maybe a North Korean result?

    107% support for the new flag.

  32. Noah 32
    24 March 2016 at 5:36 pm

    It is inevitable that one day we will be republic Aotearoa,its sided in our passports.New ZEALAND Aotearoa,so should it be the Tino flag or the compromise Red Peak,that encompasses not only the Tino but the Brit Jack colours.

  33. Noah 33
    24 March 2016 at 5:40 pm

    It is inevitable that one day we will be republic Aotearoa,its sided in our passports.New ZEALAND Aotearoa,so should it be the Tino flag or the compromise Red Peak,that encompasses not only the Tino but the Brit Jack colours of our past..

  34. Noah 34
    24 March 2016 at 5:43 pm

    Mind you,it could be named Fonterra Land.

  35. Nick 35
    24 March 2016 at 5:48 pm

    60-40 no change.

    I wonder if Obama will make a jokey threat at Shonkey about not touching his daughters hair….or perhaps Michelle just ushers her kids inside the house and away from the dodgy man from Hobbiton

  36. BM 36
    24 March 2016 at 6:25 pm

    53-47 new flag.

  38. Observer (Tokoroa) 38
    24 March 2016 at 7:07 pm

    .
    Flag or Feather
    .
    I have had a bit of a look at John and Richie’s flag.

    The blimmin thing has got a long white feather running diagonally down it

    White feathers are not appropriate for Richie.

    • Chooky 38.1
      24 March 2016 at 8:45 pm

      maybe he likes being tickled with a feather …some people do have very odd fetishes

      • Bill 38.1.1
        24 March 2016 at 8:56 pm

        Aw gawd. Just got an image of him strutting around the dressing rooms with an ostrich feathered butt plug. Thanks chooky. Need to go and gouge my brain now.

  39. Expat 39
    24 March 2016 at 8:57 pm

    Yay, $25m down the drain in wasted egoism, the nail is in the coffin for Key.

  40. Geoff Neal 40
    25 March 2016 at 5:33 pm

    Thanks Anthony. If you liked that article, you’re going to love this one that just went live…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/winning-new-zealand-flag-design-your-views/14283879/12-things-the-flag-process-got-very-wrong

    • lprent 40.1
      25 March 2016 at 7:03 pm

      Votes would be limited to one per IP address

      Idiotic. What that means is that anyone with even basic technical skills can vote as many times as they like.

      If they are technically literate like I am, which obviously the fool writing that article wasn’t, then you can program in whatever result was desired.

      Some of the other points were kind if valid. But the level of similar shallow dumbness permeates the whole article.

      • Geoff Neal 40.1.1
        25 March 2016 at 9:58 pm

        “Idiotic”, “fool”, “shallow dumbness” – that’s a bit rough Iprent. Most people responded with smart, progressive comments.

        The point was YouTube, Facebook etc have voting buttons to increase engagement, and help good content rise, and bad content sink. The flag submission site could and should have had the same. Do you disagree?

        99.9% of people have no idea how to rig voting on those sites. We clearly don’t all share your IT prowess. All hail you!

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