From slum-house to mega-man: Mana-TIP connections
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1:17 pm, April 12th, 2014 - 405 comments
Categories: election 2014, internet, mana-party, poverty, Spying, telecommunications, us politics -
Tags: kim dotcom, The Internet Party
The Mana Party AGM is underway today.
The mainstream media (MSM) is mostly focused on the Mana and Internet (TIP) Party negotiations, and most particularly on the appearance of Kim Dotcom at the Mana Party meeting. Michael Fox reports:
After weeks of speculation, Mana Party members will today finally get to hear the case for the controversial proposed merger with the Internet Party.
The party was due to hold its annual meeting in Rotorua where Internet Party founder Kim Dotcom would attempt to convince Mana members of the benefits of a merger which has already found favour with leader Hone Harawira, but seen other leaders threaten to walk out if it goes ahead.
A formal deal could give the Internet Party a shot at seats in Parliament by riding on the coat-tails of Harawira as he attempted to hold Te Tai Tokerau electorate in September’s election.
But that’s not all that’s happening at the meeting:
There was a chance they could approach other parties to set up a deal to campaign together, like that posed by the Greens to Labour.
”The strategic thing would be to focus on building numbers of seats opposed to National rather than attacking one another. So we could just concentrate on tearing the Left apart or we could look at trying to build the numbers.”
This could also involve discussions around electorate deals or an agreement not to attack each other.
The invitation to economist Gareth Morgan to speak was also aimed at broadening the party’s appeal and opening up new ideas.
”Both of them bring ideas which mark out the fact that in my view Mana can no longer be pigeonholed as a party for Maori, the disaffected and for the radical fringe.”
Other speakers scheduled include Georgina Beyer and Donna Awatere-Huata (is there a party Awatere-Huata has not been connected with?
The common interests between Mana and TIP usually foregrounded are their common opposition to John key and removing National from power. They also share some concerns about issues to do with corporate dominance, Internet use and copyright controls, plus the excessive and intrusive surveillance by the NSA dominated “5 eyes” network, which includes our spy agencies, the GCSB (international surveillance) and SIS (domestic surveillance).
The main skepticism that many of us have had about the Mana-TIP connection is to do with the apparent contradiction of Mana’s focus on the poverty, and Dotcom’s focus on acquiring excessive wealth. It looks like in his speech to Mana today, that Dotcom is aiming to build some bridges around experiences of living in poverty.
Kim Dotcom tells the Mana AGM about growing up in poverty with an alcoholic father pic.twitter.com/217KoMsxMu
Dotcom speaks to Mana: Tova O’Brien tweet
Dotcom hasn’t been reported a lot as having mentioned this aspect of his background.
There was also this tweet from Dotcom back in December:
“Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice.” – Nelson
#Mandela
It also got a mention in Dotcom’s interview by Rachel Smalley on Qu & A, 30 March 2014:
RACHEL Do you know what it’s like to be poor?
KIM I know very much what it’s like to be poor.
RACHEL When have you been poor?
KIM Well my father was an alcoholic, and when I was a child he used to beat us up, and my mother was working three jobs just to feed us, just to keep us going. I was living in a small apartment building that people would probably consider a slum, if you saw where we lived in Germany, and when I was a kid I often had to eat toast with sugar, or toast with ketchup, that was my food. So I know what it means to be poor, I know what it means to struggle and to be hungry.
This is an interesting focus. Of course, there are some who have such backgrounds, but go on to pull the ladder up after themselves: these are the ones who have grown up in poverty (or at least in modest circumstances), and become part of a small minority who later become wealthy.
I am among those who have concerns about TIP ultimately destroying Mana’s flaxroots connections with, and advocacy for, the Kiwis who are struggling to get by. I will be watching to see if TIP develops policies and campaigns for those in poverty, or if Dotcom is just using his childhood background as a bit of bridge-building PR.
The controversial German internet tycoon received a positive reception from about 200 Mana members at Rotorua’s lakeside Mataikotare Marae.
He told them that having grown up poor, he was committed to Mana’s core principles of tackling poverty.
“I’m for social fairness. Who in his right mind isn’t?”
[…]Along with his pledge of support for Mana’s policies around alleviating poverty Mr Dotcom sketched out his vision to create jobs by dragging New Zealand into the internet age.
He also underlined how the Internet Party’s technology could help boost Mana’s engagement with voters.
[Update #2: Sunday] NZ Herald – “Alliance on the Agenda”
… Mana Party members agreed late last night to move forward in negotiations with the Internet Party.
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While Hone Harawira, Annette Sykes, and, John Minto sit at the head of the Mana Party i have no concerns that the Internet Party will destroy its flax-roots connections,
As Hone pointed out it took a week for the Internet Party to gain a membership to rival that of Mana’s which has taken years to build, if such skills can be utilized by Mana to enhance its membership in the same manner then that is but the first plus in the relationship,
Here in Wellington Mana as a Party hardly exists with little or no effort being (able)to be expended here to gather more members and open more branches, the more electoral success Mana is seen to have gained, in my opinion, the more people will become interested in the Party,
i will make an assumption that Dotcom and the Internet Party are willing to cede social policy to the Mana Party so any fear of the focus of Mana being subsumed by the other party is probably misplaced,
If, concerns over the loss of flax-roots connections is a veiled reference to Sue Bradford’s opposition to Mana being involved with the Internet Party then i can only have a small lolz and consider that Mana have more to gain from such an alliance than it has to lose from Bradford’s displeasure…
Bad: If, concerns over the loss of flax-roots connections is a veiled reference to Sue Bradford’s opposition to Mana being involved with the Internet Party then i can only have a small lolz and consider that Mana have more to gain from such an alliance than it has to lose from Bradford’s displeasure…
heh. No, that’s not what was in my mind. i was thinking more about Hone’s active campaigning around “feed the kids”. The bottom image on the post is from a Mana-sponsored “fed the kids” event in South Auckland.
Also Mana’s support of the Glen Innes state housing protestors (Minto & Harawira), and Annette Sykes on the ground activities in her electorate.
Karol, i fail to see how an involvement with the Internet Party is going to dilute the Mana Party focus on bread and butter issues like feed the kids and State housing,(as an aside DotCom was quoted by RadioNZ National News at 2.00 as ”fully supporting all of Mana’s policies”),
If such a quote is the truth of what DotCom intends then i would suggest that such an alliance now has a workable social policy as well as an internet one, for my part i do not give a stuff how much money DotCom has or has not or whether or not He intends to make mega-millions more,(obviously if He hasn’t realized the implications of Mana’s policies by now he soon will as the requirement i assume will be for people with extensive amounts of coin like He has to pay more taxation than they do at present)…
I don’t care about Dotcom’s wealth. I care about his commitment do social fairness, income/wealth equality etc.
I need to see evidence of what will happen with the TIP. I have seen too many false dawns, and new left intiatives, die a quick death.
However, I’m now starting to think some significant electoral changes are underway – maybe part of some social shift. There’s the initiative from the Greens to an alliance with Labour – and now the Greens are making clear their priorities and aim to work with others.
A GP tweet this afternoon.
There’s a kind of “left” jockeying for positions going on, and various negotitations going on – but udnerneath a desrie to work together for a change of government.
Too often I’ve seen intitatives, beat-up by media headlines, people getting drawn into a band wagon, only to find the intitial values udnermined and buried.
I’m watching with interest, and staying commited to supportingt he Green Party for the election.
If I was involved with the decision of the Mana Party, I’d be asking myself if I’d rather have a party whose flax roots may be killed or damaged by an alliance with the IP (it could conceivably strengthen them), or whether I’d prefer one where those flax roots were subjected to ongoing applications of Stalinist poison.
That whole Socialist Aotearoa support for Mana was and is the sole reason I couldn’t contemplate voting Mana. That Bomber Bradbury, who by my understanding encouraged the hook up with Socialist Aotearoa, is now bagging the apparent discontent of that ‘socialist’ support is just very eye rolly.
Lolz, i have gained the distinct impression that such Marxist readers have decided they only have to wait long enough until the Capitalists have made such a mess of the situation that the masses have no option but to revolt,
If Mana/Internet sharing resources puts Hone, Annette and John Minto into the next Parliament along with a rep from the Internet Party i am pretty sure from this far out that i will be voting FOR such an outcome,
i fail to see how Mana can be damaged by the Internet Party, call me an outlier if you must but if this negotiation goes ahead i will probably be swapping membership to the Mana Party and contacting them with a view to setting up a branch of the Party here in Wellington’s Eastern suburbs,
They are after all two separate parties who would have to agree to each others relevant policies to make the alliance workable, if the alliance became unworkable then they might go their separate ways,
And therein lies the only ‘danger’ i see in this alliance in that there is little to stop an Internet MP brought into the Parliament upon Hone’s coat-tail leaving the alliance and supporting the right in the Parliament,(but that’s a risk faced by every party)…
You fail to see how MANA, a party campaigning on protectionist economic fairness and social justice, can be harmed by aligning itself with a quasi-libertarian technocrat party driven from the backseat by a shadowy foreign charicature of a ruthlesslt amoral, narcissistic capitalist with a list of convictions as long as my arm?
You’re even dimmer than I gave you credit for.
Your opinion is noted laughed at and will be ignored,(which is probably because of a balance of your opinion not being worth more than one expectoration of my spit in your direction and/or the fact that your opinion is obviously chock full of lies and/or you have a very short arms length possibly matched only by your shortness of intellect)…
Waaaaaahhhhh waaaahhhhhhhh – what lies, you butthurt cretinous twit? The bit about MANA campaigning on protectionist economic fairness and social justice?
That comment Pouluxe make you seem like the survivor of your mummy having dropped you on your head at birth…
What have I lied about in regard to Kim Dotcom and MANA, you cretinous twit x2
How many criminal convictions has Dotcom got populuxe, ”a list as long as your arm, a stupid lie by an idiot in the form of you attempting to transfer your fear of Mana on through DotCom to readers,
Keep it up tho, your pathetic display here has more or less sealed the deal as far as my party vote going to such an alliance,
i am sure if you continue to vent you might convince a few more..
Convicted of eleven counts of computer fraud.
Convicted of ten counts of data espionage.
Convicted of a series of minor crimes, including handling stolen goods.
Convicted of embezzlement – to the profit of 1.5 million euros.
Convicted of eight share trading offences, including failing to disclose shareholdings.
Enjoy your thirty pieces of silver, dude
Were those convictions criminal or civil? Are they in the records by Interpol or were they wiped out? Was he jailed or fined?
With all those ‘convictions’ and he was a convicted criminal, how and why did this National Government give him residency here?
“With all those ‘convictions’ and he was a convicted criminal, how and why did this National Government give him residency here?”
Ummm, could it have been the money?
“With all those ‘convictions’ and he was a convicted criminal, how and why did this National Government give him residency here?”
Duh! National is venal, corrupt and sluts for rich people’s money.
@Clemgeopin
The first few convictions of computer fraud and so on were when Dotcom was quite young. I think they were called “youthful follies” or something like that by the judge.
However the embezzlement conviction happened when he was 27. The trading convictions when he was 29.
The advice of Immigration is that those people with that type of convictions are not given residency.
So yeah. It was the money. He applied under the Investor Plus scheme and bought $10m of government bonds.
@Bill 1.2: SA is highly critical of ‘Stalinism’ and is a more a hybrid trotyskite party from my observation. SA members do good work among the “untouchables” of New Zealand–migrant and low paid workers and back up their talk with action in defending the residents subject to government cleansing of Glen Innes of state housing.
Just as the corporates will have nearly run out of places to hide when the Chinese workers get properly organised, the local capitalists worst nightmare is a practical unity in action between NZ socialists and the pakeha/tau iwi and Māori working class.
TM The Trots and Leninists and Stalinists are all from the same tradition and still cleave to the same tradition, though they do get a bit fluid on their figurehead. As for them being socialist well, I don’t really know any socialists who would refer to authoritarian cultists as such. Meanwhile, as for socialists and others working across international/ethnic/gender/political divides and in conjunction with other perspectives, I’m absolutely an advocate for that.
bad12
Nice work. Hone needs money to hold his own seat. It is highly likely that Kelvin Davis shall take the seat.
Harawira (Hone) and Dotcom seem keen on an alliance. There’s some enthusiasm in the Mana Party.
Dotcom was reported after speaking:
And the Mana Party get to debate it and decide:
Where does the Internet Party come in to this? They had said they wanted to operate on their own and separate themselves from Dotcom.
Dotcom still seems to be calling all the shots.
A Harawira/Dotcom alliance will be interesting if it happens.
Thanks for the link, PG – some useful quotes from Dotcom. Couldn’t find an NZ herald report on it a little while ago.
I think this is fascinating. It will be interesting to see what the Mana members decide. It sounds like there’s some enthusiasm but it’s difficult to know what will happen when (if) opponents have there say this afternoon.
Harawira has made it clear that the Mana party members make the final decision.
Dotcom seems to have made his decision already. Internet Party Chief Executive Vikram Kumar has advised “Kim is leading the discussion with MANA on behalf of the Internet Party.”
A lot may depend on how close a working relationship the parties have. Harawira and Dotcom are both strong personalities.
“They had said they wanted to operate on their own and separate themselves from Dotcom.”
Citation required.
Everything about this is horrific. Hypocritical, cannibalistic of the left and demonstrating that even the self appointed social crusaders will sell out to the highest bidder.
A wealthy, foreign, likely criminal buying his way into the halls of power to save his butt from extradition. A truly shameful time for Mana and the progressive left in New Zealand.
Yes it does seem sad that this wealthy resident of New Zealand having had His ‘rights’ trampled all over by the illegal actions of this and another State has to involve Himself in the political process in an effort to establish an out-come that many of us would call JUSTICE…
cough cough Robert Mugabe cough
Oh now you’re getting really psychedelically twisted Pops’.
Take a cuppa and a copy of Boys’ Own and go lie down for a bit.
It’s comical watching the very people who created the caraciture of Hone Harawira as a hybrid of the dangerous Maori separatist and the fuckwitted little Maori monkey boy now whining on (Mugabe indeed) when THEIR separatist/monkey departs from the script of THEIR caraciture.
That those pompous sneering racists have in ANY measure the right to be consulted about MANA’s philosophical well being and the how, why, when and with whom ? Fuck off !
Nope, it’s just the unsavory corollary of what happens when you make demigods of people based on what has been done to them and spun versions of their intentions while ignoring the disturbing signs. See Zizek’s criticisms of Chomsky’s empericism
That large fulla KDC burrowing right up your arse is obviously hurting you big time there Pops’. Maybe being less anal ’bout every fucking thing will measurably reduce the pain. What a mongrel of a day you’ve had old boy/girl. Can’t ‘a’ been nice. Ne’er mind another day tomorrow. Stop it you old fuckwit. Grandma’s pearls gonna break the way you’s clutchin’ at ’em.
Nope, it’s just the unsavory corollary of what happens when you make demigods of people based on what has been done to them and spun versions of their intentions while ignoring the disturbing signs. See Zizek’s criticisms of Chomsky’s empericism
Are you drunk again populuxe…
You not offering a factual rebuttal again, bad?
Considering the utter rubbish i was replying to populuxe, are you Drunk again would seem the most factual reply necessary…
A factual rebuttal? To an assertion of the creation of demigods?
I’ve heard this quite a bit – that people on the left are holding Dotcom up as some kind of hero (now a demigod apparently) – but I still haven’t seen any examples of it.
I don’t expect to see any tonight either.
Shall we start with Bombast Bradbury’s salivating machinations and go from there?
I don’t see an example. Just another broad accusation too general to be examined.
You’re really going to make me cut and paste all that?
Ok, from the daily blog for starters
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/19/what-kim-dotcom-hone-harawira-talked-about/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/25/confidence-and-supply-bottom-lines-in-mana-movement-internet-party-alliance/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/25/hone-to-kim-lose-the-square/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/28/kim-to-hone-ive-ditched-the-square/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/04/01/why-the-right-need-to-destroy-kim-dotcom/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/03/31/update-on-mana-movement-internet-party-alliance/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/04/12/mana-agm-update/
But most interestingly of all:
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/14/why-national-have-most-to-fear-from-kim-dotcoms-new-political-party/
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/15/a-response-to-whaleoils-exclusive-on-me-and-the-internet-party/
For starters
That’s just a list of posts on the daily blog that mention Dotcom.
I had rather hoped you were going to give some examples of this hero worship/demigod creation you mentioned.
Or is it your position that anyone who comments on Dotcom is somehow idolising/lionising him?
Have you actually bothered to read through them, especially the last two? Obviously not. Perhaps you would find Bad’s rantings more instructive?
“Have you actually bothered to read through them”
Yep, they all mention Dotcom.
So hurry up and link or quote something specific that demonstrates that the left are turning Dotcom into a hero or a demigod.
This is your third attempt btw.
Yeah, I think I’ll stop. Normally when people are as smug as you about being ignorant morons, they’re right wing conservatives.
Really Pop? You’ve got the links right there in front of you.
It would take you no effort whatsoever to point to the specific parts that demonstrate your argument, if they existed.
Right in front of you, Pop.
Does you mother still cut up your dindins for you and spoon feed you, or could you grow up and not be a lazy fucker and not demand others do things you can’t be arsed to do yourself in an effort to annoy them?
In the time it took you to type that comment you could have copied and pasted a relevant quote from one of your links.
If one existed, of course.
“grow up and not be a lazy fucker and not demand others do things you can’t be arsed to do yourself”
Says the guy who wants me to post evidence to prove something he asserted, which I’ve told him I have never seen but which he insists exists.
🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄
Stop pretending you care. I’m not interested in your passive-aggressive provocations.
Still nothing. And you still have the links right in front of you.
Jeez you’re pathetic, Pop.
Are you done yet? I am rubber, you are glue etc etc blah blah blah. I suppose you’re still up because it’s not a school night. Seeing as you have so much time to bait me, why don’t you chust read through the links (with your confrimation bias turned down, which I doubt is possible in your case) and then tell me that Bombast isn’t jonesing for a Mana/Dotcom alliance
I did read them, and I don’t see anything that looks like hero worship or demigod creation. Apparently you do, because that’s what you posted the links as evidence of. And that was just for starters, you said.
But for some weird reason you can’t or won’t point to anything in those links that shows anything of the sort, or find any other links anywhere that do, despite having hours and hours to type angry irrational nonsense here all night.
Dude, it’s really obvious that all you’ve done is search “site:thedailyblog.co.nz kim dotcom” and posted the search results.
You haven’t once pointed to anything to back up your assertion, and you’re getting angry with me because I won’t do it for you.
Which I can’t, because there is no evidence to back up your assertion, because it’s bullshit, because “the left” isn’t engaged in a whole lot of hero-worship / demigod creation around Dotcom.
And now in response you will once again refuse to provide any evidence to back up your assertion, and instead make a silly angry screechy comment that any normal person would regret in the morning, and again pretend it’s somehow my fault that you’ve dug yourself this stupid, stupid hole.
Or pass out in your own vom.
I’m not sure what’s worse, you using the victims of alcohol addiction in an attempt to mock and insult me or your inability to get beyond your confirmation bias.
And still nothing. Yawn.
demigod and hero worship??? even if bradbury worhsips dotcom and treats him as a demigod, that doesnt mean the left treat him as a hero or worship him as a demigod. left supporters on here have criticised dotcom, myself included.
is this still about your area of teaching and dotcom’s book ownership?
were you outraged about garretts prior conviction when he stood on the act list? do you know how many mps current or past have/had convictions?
I think I was empatically clear with the “for starters” and for someone who has supposedly been critical of Dotcom, you are remarkabley dogmatic in defending him mow.
Populuxe1 have you seen that lawn Dotcoms has to mow…its huge…seriously though you could have a career in debating, arguing as a stooge and proxy for the opposite team…either that or you are a great example of how arrogant, unable to reason, and unable follow logic Torys generally are…thinking big lists and nonsequential assertions make a valid argument…great entertainment though for a rainy Sunday.
Shall we start with your total disregard of Mr Cargo Cult Smiles Wanly Fucking Liar Mr ShonKey Python while somehow incredibly you dance around the room clumsily aiming kicks at those on the other side of Planet Key ? I reckon you’re a schizoid Tory who spends some hours of everyday fancying himself the wisest leftie in Christendom.
And not getting paid like Crosby Textor. Fool !
Did you just cite George W Bush doctrine at me? If you’re not with us you’re agin’ us? LOLZ. It’s perfectly possible to be cynical about all politicains regardless of one’s personal beliefs – their behaviour actively encourages it. You just accused me of not being a true Scotsman. Your lack of self-awarenes is positively adorable.
This from someone who has spent about 48 hours screaming that anyone who isn’t filled with rage at the mention of Dotcom’s name is guilty of worshipping him, defending him, or turning him into a demigod.
🙄
Cough cough, stupid reply(as usual) cough populuxe…
What have they sold out of?
If Hone Harawira or any other politician is venal enough to reject Mr.com’s extradition because he paid them to, then he is the least of our problems.
Perhaps you need to think this through a bit more clearly.
Are you saying that the Left should only listen to paragons of virtue? When David Cunliffe recently spoke to a room full of very conservative business people, did they immediately decide to start funding Labour?
What makes you think Mana members are so stupid and naive?
“Are you saying that the Left should only listen to paragons of virtue?”
Listening is fine – but they might be a bit more careful to forge their alliances with those who are not outright criminal, and at least show evidence of being genuinely sympathetic to their goals.
Has DotCom been convicted of a crime in New Zealand, hell Dover Samuels and John A. Lee had a few convictions between them so your point is spurious bullshit…
Did we know about that at the time they were running? No. Where there mitigating circumstances? Yes. Were there multiple convictions on an international scale? No. Are you a cretin? Yes.
How many major NZ companies have been convicted of offences. ?
heaps. Telecom , Voddafone , even Air NZ. Some have many offences.
Fletcher Building was convicted just the other week
And in The US they are just starting to look at international currency trading rate fixing by the big institutions.
It just so happens that John Key was head of foreign currency trading at Merril Lynch
Thats along with all the other ‘settlements’ US banks have to get around convictions on various misdeads- these are not one offs.
Its systematic law breaking at the highest levels. Will it ensnare Key as well
Dense much populuxe, i realize that You might not have known about Dover’s convictions prior to His running for parliament,
John A.Lee’s convictions were well known by all and sundry as He took a liking to doing a bunk from various institutions, it appears that service in world war one rehabilitated Him in the eyes of idiots akin to you who spend their lives living in fear of the big bad crims portrayed by the mainstream media…
Just possibly John E Lee dying quite some time before I was old enough to vote may have something to do with me not really taking your nonsense to heart.
like david garret, trevor mallard, doug graham is a criminal,
David Garrett got booted out of his party and Doug Graham is in prison last time I checked.
Oops , I got confused with Graham Caphill lol – you’ll have to remind me what Doug Graham’s conviction was for
Considering the IMF, World Bank etc. have finally decided to take notice of reality, and announced that inequality stunts economic growth, there is no contradiction in a rich man wanting to reduce inequality: he stands to become even wealthier as a result.
Just as there is no real contradiction in the economist and businessman Gareth Morgan addressing the Mana party AGM,(be interesting to see if Gareth gets involved personally in the politics),
Morgan a ‘rich’ man by any standards has traveled extensively throughout the world would have seen plenty of poverty worse than that experienced here in New Zealand where poverty remains largely hidden,
i see no-one decrying the involvement of Gareth Morgan,(is there a double standard being applied here)…
Gareth Morgan has a track record of being invested in progressive social and environmental policy, even if totally misguided on the subject of North Korea. How is that a double standard?
can you post links showing morgans track record in progressive environmental and social policy.
i am interested in how much of it was prior to his 40’s.
Given Morgan is 61, I think that’s a rather stupid question – obviously we aren’t talking about Morgan’s politics 20 something years ago, we’re talking about him and Dotcom today.
If Dotcom has done anything like found Kiwibank, donated heavily to and been an ambassador for UNICEF, or ever shown any passionate interest in global warming, the environment, public nutrition etc, it’s bloody news to me.
Alan Gibbs in his younger days was a lefty and considered joining a commune.
What does that prove about him now ? Hes in his 70s
Well unless he’s addressing MANA this week, it doesn’t seem overly relevant.
that is a no then. when morgan was dotcoms age you have no idea if he was progressive about anything social, environmental or otherwise… that may be something he has come to more recentlu. you made the statement, now prove it, with dates.
and morgan has 21 years on dotcom who is still a relatively young man.
So get in your time machine and go and fetch Morgan from 21 years ago to talk to MANA… oh wait, your argument is entirely bollocks
how old is dotcom?
He had his fortieth birthday in January. In conjunction with a birthday party he was going to launch the Internet party at Vector – the party party. The candles were blown out on that by the Electoral Commission.
thanks pete.
i think morgan is nearly 60. i wonder if he was focusing on his business or his progressive social and environmental policy at age fprty…
bearing in mind he worked for the reserve bank in the 80’s… not the most progressive institution.
then his “aid” for gamblers”
In 1984 he and business partner Andrew Gawith launched a twice weekly horse racing form guide, Bettor Informed, based on econometric modelling of all 7,500 gallopers on the New Zealand scene. The publication sought to identify the fair dividend for each horse and to instruct its readers when the odds being paid at the tote were a good return compared to the horse’s actual chances of winning in that field. The publication was sold to Independent Newspapers Limited, owners of competitors Best Bets and Turf Digest.
The last twenty years of Morgan’s like have been far more progressive and socially useful than the last twenty of Dotcoms, and quite frankly you sound like a wowser. Not everyone who gambles is a problem gambler – those that are obviously should be given all the help humanly possible, but there really isn’t any reasonable argument from preventing non-problem gamblers from doing something that gives thema bit of pleasure. Problem gamblers, by the way, are more likely to be found at the casino than the horse track.
Tracey: “i think morgan is nearly 60. i wonder if he was focusing on his business or his progressive social and environmental policy at age fprty…”
Pop: “The last twenty years of Morgan’s like have been far more progressive and socially useful than the last twenty of Dotcoms”
There’s no way you could miss the point so widely unless you were doing it on purpose.
No Felix, because I’m not treating this as some diverting little Gedankenexperiment where a warp in spacetime swaps Gareth Morgan with his 40 year old self- that would be a scenario for science fiction. What I’m actually doing is comparing Kim Dotcom and Gareth Morgan right here and now when they are both speaking to the membership of the MANA party and assesing the relatively likelihood of their compatibility with MANA policy and ideology. I’m sorry that your learning disability and personal sislike of me prevents you from transcending your confirmation bias and understanding that.
Do you have children, Pop?
If so I imagine you must consider them miserable failures.
Seriously, what the fuck are you smoking?
Well do you compare the last 5 years of their sporting achievements to the last 5 years of Ritchie McCaw’s?
Do you get upset with 8-year-old’s who can’t parallel park as well as you?
Do you think 20-year-old citizens deserve a lower grade of public services than 50-year-olds because they haven’t paid as much tax?
No, I don’t have any children, but I would be pretty fucking concerned if my eight year old were up for All Blacks selection or driving cars. I mean, wow, you have totally departed on a tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. Your thoroughly weird tax/public services comparison is entirely off the planet. Come on, really – I’m communicating with Ricky the Special Needs monkey via ouija board, aren’t I?
I’m not even entirely sure how we get to here from the simple observation that Gareth Morgan has a better record for putting his money and support into progressive causes than does Kim Dotcom. I can only assume you are smoking P.
Yes, reading the thread back it does appear that I’m on crack. 🙄
“I’m not even entirely sure how we get to here from the simple observation that Gareth Morgan has a better record for putting his money and support into progressive causes than does Kim Dotcom.”
By Tracey’s observation that as people go through different stages of their lives they focus on different things. It’s really not that complex. Perhaps if you slow down a bit and stop yelling at the screen and give that throbbing artery on your forehead a chance to settle down, you’d manage to actually read the replies and keep up with the conversation.
Are you suggesting that in the space of the last couple of days that Gareth Morgan has reverted to a freemarketeer and the Dotcom has also, in the last few days, blossomed into a left wing philanthropist – because that’s the only important thing. The funny thing about time being linear – it’s only the recent history that matters. You are not the Doctor.
No, no-one has suggested that. But thanks for deciding what is the only important thing.
Phew.
Actually that is exactly what you are suggesting by your ridiculous tangents. Put down the crack pipe. You have completely highjacked and derailed the thread even though you apparently are NOT disagreeing with me. Dude, you’re fucked up and you should probably seek some help.
I’m sorry you haven’t been able to follow the conversation. Have a good sleep.
Here’s a hint, Pop: Compare what Gareth Morgan was doing from age 20-40, to what Kim Dotcom has done in the same age timeframe. Then you’ll have a much fairer comparison, than 20-40 for Dotcom and 40-60 for Morgan.
Here’s a hint Lanth. It’s not about fairness of the comparsion between the two and entirely to do with their likely individual impact on and ambitions for MANA here, now, today. Or I suppose I could have myself cryogenically frozen for twenty years so I can see how Dotcom has blossomed into a bigger-boned and accented version of Michael Joseph Savage.
Please do, Pop. It would vastly improve your arguments.
Save the schoolyard taunts unless you have something relevant to contribute other than trying to get a rise out of me.
Got those links/quotes yet Pop?
Go on Felix, you can have the last word after this one. I know you want it.
thanks lanth and felix.
pop alluded to being an academic the other day, i shudder to think of him ” teaching” students given his blinkered reasoning.
Please feel free to jump in your Tardis and go fetch Dotcom twenty years hence so the future Dotcom can form an alliance with MANA and I won’t have a leg to stand on.
“jump in your Tardis and go fetch Dotcom twenty years hence so the future Dotcom can form an alliance with MANA”
Hey pop’, what if it has already happened ? ooooooooooohhhh 😯
Hi Populuxe1,
I think you’re missing this particular point.
Tracey’s argument about what Gareth Morgan was doing at age 40 was meant – as I see it – to highlight that anyone being cynical about Morgan’s initial forays into progressive environmental and social issues would have been proven incorrect over time.
While it may have been ‘wise’ to be cynical about Morgan’s motivation from one perspective, it would have turned out simply to be wrong – given your own assessment of Morgan’s contribution to such causes over the last 20 years.
That point can then be transferred to Dotcom: While, from one perspective (a cynical one) it might be ‘wise’ to discount his claimed intentions to be concerned about social justice/fairness it may still be wrong, just as it would have been to have made the same judgment about Morgan at a similar age.
Inductive logic is all we have to go on most of the time (as logically flawed as David Hume argued it to be). However, when it comes to what is known about lifespan development (particularly the notion that as we age certain events can catalyse a major shift in values and life course – and being raided by the FBI and Police unexpectedly could well rank as one of those types of events), then Tracey’s point is worth considering because it has plausibility.
Whether or not it is electorally wise – or based on principled motivation – for Mana to consider an alliance with the Internet Party is another question. But there’s no reason to conflate that question with Tracey’s point.
@Puddleglum:
Well said! I was thinking in a similar way this morning : When Dot Com gave the donation to Banks, it does not follow that he was/is right wing as such because Dot com was fairly new to the country and its politics and personalities. Banks may have solicited the donation from the recently arrived rich uncle and Dot Com obliged as it would perhaps help his own ambitions in a new country.
But now that he and his family has had to suffer huge illegality and adverse shenanigans, his thoughts about politics, fairness, law and justice would be more focused than when he arrived or when the raid took place.
By being with Hone & co and Mana, I think he will get greater wisdom and understanding about social issues and social justice.
People change when circumstances change. Kim.Com might surprise everyone yet again in his evolving political philosophy.
There have been precedents such as shown by Melinda and Bill Gates in USA and Gareth Morgan here for example.
It could be the perfect synergy – between Manas social justice aspirations and the Internet Party strategy of high tech innovation and freedom from Big Brother spying and undermining of our rights on the internet.
Combined these two partys will be stronger than separate.
Having in the past given my party vote to Mana and been dissapointed that my vote has not contributed toward extra seats in parliament for Mana…it will be great to see some more anti establishment faces in Parliament come September and a vote for Mana being a real vote for change.
People who otherwise would perhaps not vote will vote for this combined party and the Torys will be very worried if Mana and TIP can get together. For good reason. last election they only won by 10000 votes.
At last the antidote to John Keys smarmy and forked tongued corporate sponsored BS –
Mana/TIP looks like giving us a real valid voting option for a progressive Aotearoa/NZ.
Labour and the Greens have become too ‘establishment’ and too far from their radical roots – this is the right time and opportunity for this new political force to shake up the complacency of NZs so called democracy.
right on!
.com, the champion of the poor. Nice line, let’s see it backed up with facts to prove it.
So far we know he donated $50k to John Banks and spent a million on some new year fireworks a few year back. As his spending seems to be quite public, how much has he spent directly trying to reduce poverty and help the poor? Less than 50 grand and he’s a hypocrite, less than a million and he’s as big a fuck nugget as those who believe him.
If John Key had been less of a whore-puppet to Washington, I expect they would be best friends by now.
Without a doubt.
Does Dotcom play golf?
I don’t think I have much in common with you, certainly not politics, but can’t argue with that.
Kim, in my opinion, has just got a hissy on because he thought he’d bought into the rich man’s club, but they dropped him as soon as they knew he was tainted and gettable. Simple as that.
I believe the man went to court and got a sizeable monthly allowance ($50,000 I recall, though happy to be corrected). How much of that, schmoozing politicians aside, has he spent on reducing poverty for kiwis, or at least our most vulnerable kiwi children?
Edit: It was $60,000 pm
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6619000/Kim-Dotcoms-60k-allowance
If he can somehow help Mana get an extra MP or two in Parliament, that’ll be a lot of help to the Left. If.
He’s toxic, mate, and he’ll wreck the show before it’s even started.
A gift to the nats in the election campaign.
Edit: I personally think the biggest fillip for mana and the left would be to reject .com altogether as a matter of principle, eg we can’t be bought like nat ministers.
mana has one MP. you are overstating the impact of mana and dotcom on the whole left for the negative.
To be fair .com has had visits from all the political left’s party leaders, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to predict the line of attack from the nat smear machine, dodgy dealings by association, of which there will be no defence from, especially if a Lab/Green government needs the votes of mana and .com.
Whether I’m overstating the impact or not, the media and press, under orders, will impact on many more than a few potential ticks on election day.
Dont forget Banks
Exactly correct imo Tracey. The sky isn’t falling allen – as usual the people will decide and when they do we’ll know, won’t we.
I have to say the more people like you bleat on, the more in favour of this I become.
Really? You’re that easily swayed? Shouldn’t you be basing your opinions on policy and track record instead?
populuxe, whine on like a (drunken) cracked record all you like, the Mana Party is going to take exactly this much notice of your right wing whinging based upon nothing but fear of a real leftist party having more seats in the next parliament,
How much notice is ‘this much’, NONE, keep bleating tho the more you do it the more you expose yourself…
I at least try to offer a reasoned rebuttal with my ad hominem – I wish you could do me the courtesy of same, or otherwise shhhhh, grownups talking.
Thats right, keep whinging,know this tho, the Mana Party will be taking your opinion into account on, well on nothing really, your lack of rebuttal would seem to confirm my view of you as a right wing reactionary shit scared of a real leftist party becoming more powerfully represented in the Parliament…
OMG you really are a dumbarse! The MANA party can do whatever the fuck it likes – I think they’re a weird and unstable jumble, but good on them for standing up for urban Maori and the precariate. It’s Dotcom who could easily be their undoing. Can I speak to an adult please?
reasoned rebuttal?
saying the same thing over and over, changing what people actually wrote to what you want to enable you to ignore it, is not reasoned rebuttal.
And yet Felix reckons I’m making it up about some supposedly of th eleft being in thrall to Dotcom.
Exactly correct pops – I base my opinion on Mana policy and their track record that’s why I back them and will continue to do so.
Which is completely fine, but I take dissent from Sue to be a very bad sign.
Thing is marty mars, leaving aside his legal future, I’m wondering why people aren’t asking just how philathropic and genuine is this bloke.
We know about manions, expensive cars and eclectic collectibles, but about soup kitchens and social well being stuff, not so so much.
Maybe some are so desperate in our struggle against the political right wing they are in need of a saviour and any saviour will do.
Maybe some are prepared to look the other way as stranger bed fellows one could ever see, just in case there’s an extra mp or two, go making buying politics, that thing most on the left despise so much each time it happens, again and again, look as easy as saying how much do you want? And how much have you got?
And maybe he’s on the level and he’s seen the light and he’ll do the right thing and we get rid of John Key, who knows?
But if you have asked yourself and are happy with “the people will decide and when they do we’ll know, won’t we”, I’m cool with that. 🙂
Exactly Marty Mars, the harder the people like Populuxe decry the proposed the alliance the more i like it,
A good idea can be judged easily by the caliber of those stridently opposing it…
Cough cough Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact cough moron
Populuxe save you whining for someone with more spit to direct your way than what i have,
As if Mana or anyone else is going to listen to your rubbish in making a decision about the Internet Party,
Scares you dont it populuxe, the thought of having a real leftist party in the Parliament that just might in time hold the balance of power, absolutely scares the pants off of you…
If you can take the tinfoil hat off for a second, I’m saying that MANA will almost certainly damage it’s chances by getting into bed with a schyster and con like Dotcom.
Pops, if Mana do damage their chances because they decide to work in some way with TIP then that is the way it goes. You are getting frothy over something that may or may not happen. I trust Hone, Annette and John – no one will convince me that they will sell out – they won’t and the membership of Mana won’t either imo.
To me a lot of the cries of ‘don’t do it’ are coming from those that don’t think Mana has the ability to make a decision best for them – it’s like ‘don’t be fooled again’ and ‘can’t you see what we see’ as if Hone is not aware of any of these issues and Annette and John have only just heard about kim. Time for those people (like you pops) to look in the mirror and really think about where those attitudes stem from because imo it may not be the pure space they are making out.
Populuxe believing Itself to be of a higher intelligence than Hone Harawira, Annette Sykes, and, John Minto telling them in Its most paternally strident tones that along with ‘It’ DotCom is also far more intelligent than they are,
Not sure of the 12 letter word that such an attitude would attract, just stupid fits really well from where i am viewing It…
As Hone et al have yet to announce a final decidion, prehaps you are being a tad presumptuous
Gordon Campbell from Scoop has a different point of view to you AIlen. Here’s his March 28th blog on the subject:
http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2014/03/28/gordon-campbell-on-mana-and-dotcom/
Makes sense to me.
Consider that MANA’s early successes have a lot to do with perceptions of the Maori Party having sold out to National.
So all you have to do now is demonstrate that:
a: Mana have or will “sold/sell out” and,
b. TIP is like National.
My pick is you’ll just keep yelling about how “obvious” it all is while simultaneously failing to come up with any relevant facts.
Where have I said they will? I’m saying I hope they don’t and they shoudn’t and giving my reasons why.
TIP is based on international pirate parties and therefore has a strong libertarian element to it – I regard that philosophy as more dangerous than silly neoliberal National.
Yeah, we know. You’re all about the “anarcho-democratic horizontal and rhizomatic structures” inherent in NZ First’s track record.
For my purposes benignly nationalist defence of sovereignty will do just fine
you dont think that maybe a majority in hones electorate like him and stuff?
I hope MANA is based on a bit more than a cult of personality – which isn’t to say NZ First isn’t a cult of personality, but at least Winston is consistent
And what of National’s entire campaign last Election ???
” I am a Key person”
that is as far down the road of “cult of personality” as you can get!
speaking of which, this was a great track in its day
but I digress… Populuxe1, Have you even read Mana policies? http://mana.org.nz/
There are as many details there as presented by any party.
(I often wonder what people mean when they ask for detailed policy?)
A lot of talk gets focused on the opposition in an election, but what of the Government?
National’s policy pages, which are only able to be read in pdf downloads, are nothing but checklists of things they already did with a few added on slogans that read like a Dick and Jane book. Except for the welfare related policies. For some reason they seem to have quite a bit of new information added, especially relating to how they want to rewrite the Social Security act of 1964 ” focusing on how to make it easier to prosecute people who defraud the taxpayer.”
Yet National’s general Tax (+ Tax Fraud) policies are no-where to be seen.
I was refering to Tracey’s comment and I’m petty sure I’ve made reference to MANA policy a number of times in reference to how strangely it sits with what we know of Mr Dotcom.
National, I would point out, predates Key by decades and unfortunately will almost certainly survive his tenure, hopefully only in opposition.
I agreed with the last paragraph up until the bit about opportunity being missed, as I see the best way of appealing to voters is to show that you’re better than your opponent by being better than your opponent. He donated big to Banks and now he’s trying Hone, what message does that send other than this time we’ll do it on the tele and not in secret and it’ll cost you a lot more than it did with old dope on a rope, the prospective candidate for mount eden. No I don’t like the look of it, but maybe I’m a doubting Thomas and need a bit of proof from my ‘opportunity missed’ other than a fat wallet and a common enemy.
Given the legal writing on the wall for Kim, the extradition, film studios and now music industry suits, I think distance is probably the best advice I’d give to left politicians. I genuinely hope Labour and the Greens don’t get caught in the cross fire.
I agree there are things about Dotcom that require Mana to proceed with some caution. There’s a lot we don’t know about his character, but there’s also a lot of scuttlebutt being spread by his right-wing foes who are patently fearful of him. That includes his offshore foes who see him as a threat to their current dominance of cyber space.
I think the Banks saga might have taught him a big lesson. Don’t jump in before doing your homework first.
Sure there’s scuttlebutt, and it’s only going to get worse now he’s going to be given a seat at the table and a stake in the game. I’m certain we don’t know the half of it yet, and that sort of makes the point to me that we should have no part of it in our politics.
Homework or not, it’s going to get messy, so I still hope Dave and Russ keep fresh towels next to their Pontius bowls, just in case.
metiria is also a co leader. i note many in the msm have started prefacing normas name with leader of the greens.
the msm, like many, dont understand sharing…
I only mentioned him because I recall it was he who met .com twice and not her.
I haven’t noticed the prefacing as I don’t do much msm these days, but Metiria is a fine co leader.
Yes, I heard or read yesterday Norman being referred to as the “de facto Green leader” despite Metiria being number 1 on the 2011 Green list and number 1 on the draft Green list published a couple of weeks ago.
I think it would be very interesting to see Metiria as deputy Prime Minister in a Labour led cabinet. That would create a much different environment to what some of the old school MPs in Labour are used to.
i agree pete, metiria as a dpm would be a great move. sadly the msm assume the man will get it…
nicely put, reflects my musings on this too.
the vitriol and anger coming from some is a little hard to fathom, unless someone knows that money in a campaign can boost mana in mp seats.
Vitriol and anger stemming from an extreme mistrust of egocentric capitalist Schweinhunderi who have demonstrated nothing by neoliberal and downright libertarian tendencies to date?
given that, just who do you intend casting your vote for, and who did you give it to in 2011?
Party: Labour, MP: Labour.
I am as yet undecided what I will vote for this time except that it won’t be National or ACT.
He also attempted to procure favours from Banks once arrested. Kim Dotcom doesn’t give money for nothing.
Harawira has now said money will be involved, I think he’s previously said the arrangement wasn’t for money.
If part of the deal is Dotcom finance I think it gets riskier.
I think the going rate is thirty pieces of silver
That’s very witty fisi, is it your first joke?
ps in this version I guess Hone is Judas and Dotcom is the priests. So who’s Jebeers?
Didn’t the original orders come from Rome, or was it Hollywood?
Like marty mars says “the people will decide and when they do we’ll know, won’t we”. 🙂
“Favours” like receiving standard issue prison gear like a towel? The sort of “favours” that SERCO have to apologise for not providing?
The same SERCO that I hope have all their contracts cancelled on September 22nd and receive no compensation other than an eviction notice signed by David Cunliffe?
few big dollar political donors do, so please join the cry for no anonymity at all in political donations and no hiding behind trusts.
Dotcom tried to get Banks, as the local MP and someone he knew personally, to ensure he was able to assert his rights to medical treatment. Rights that are “guaranteed” by law to every inmate by legislation, but are harder to find in prison than rocking horse shit. Perhaps, being German, he expected that a country’s penal institutions would follow its penal legislation. Banks, rather than fleeing in embarrassment, should have taken a stand in favour of the law of the land. I just hope he gets his chance to experience the same treatment first hand, and asap.
@bad12… Yeah, a true injustice. Cry me a river! I’d much rather a dodgy individual who ain’t too keen on paying his staff and contractors while holidaying at luxury resorts, and who established a platform to steal and profit from other’s effort, usurps our political and justice system for his own benefit. Nothing dodgy about that, eh? Nah it’s cool coz he hates Key. Idiots.
@OAB Oh you know, treating employees fairly, meeting contractual obligations to contracts, the rule of law, recognising property rights including those of tagata whenua, and ensuring they’re financially compensated. But that’s just from what we know of this rich prick… he doesn’t have any policies because this isn’t about NZ, this is about him.
So yeah, if mana go with this, they’re idiots.
are you a mana voter
Yeah nah, Turgid, I think you’ll find that when companies get closed down overnight and all their assets get frozen there is often a problem paying staff. I think you’ll also find that all creditors have now been paid, at least according to Mr.com.
What’s this sudden concern of yours for the property rights of tagata(sic) whenua? Funny your citing the rule of law when at this stage the only laws we know have been broken were broken by the GCSB and FBI, and justice usurped by the same parties. Let’s assume Wormald is innocent of perjury until proven guilty, eh.
As for Mana, I suspect you think they’re idiots whether or not they go with the IP.
IF mana believe that another three years of this govt is too devastating then making some concessions to dotcom for a few years to perhaps help bring the govt down, then maybe mana will mount a greater good argument? dotcom will not be a kingmake this year, the right and some lefties are mounting an out of proportion facade of outrage.
goff fucked this nation in the 80’s and helped thereafter but many still vote labour to give him a high paying job for a few more years.
At the risk of being accused of a Godwin, Germany 1933 – Hindenberg thought it awfully clever to appoint You Know Who to the position of Chancellor on similarly politically expedient reasoning.
You didn’t take that cuppa, Boys’ Own, and a lie down did you Pops’ ?
And you obviously need to learn about more bout where political pragmatism can lead you
If you want to be making 1930s comparisons, I think you’ll find that it is the right wing parties of NZ that have the compliant media in tow, pushing their propaganda.
All right then, how about we pause briefly to consider how South Africa managed to go from Mandela to Zuma?
How bout you pause long enough to get sober…
Either you’re trying to provoke a childish tit-for-tat argument or you need your nappy changed – I’m not sure which.
The taxpayer funded pro Tory regime online MSM spinners can throw whatever mud they want.
I love seeing them so rattled and desperate to undermine the potential Mana and TIP represent.
I just read a heading in the media:
ROYAL MANA !
and wondered who they are refering to as Royal, Hone or Kim?
Then I realised that I had misread the headline:
It said, ROYAL MANIA about Will and Kate!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Something a portion of the left ignore as they crawl up the high moral ground.
All power to anything that screws this Gnat government.
And again, I cite the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact as why that is a thoroughly stupid argument. Or any number of broken treaties from the Treaty of 1412 onward.
BS Churchill and Stalin (and Roosevelt) working together to beat one common enemy disproves your thoroughly stupid argument,.
No it doesn’t, actually. It negates nothing. Having been at war with Germany and Japan and friends now does nothing to negate the fact it wasn’t always so. By your rather inane argument we shouldn’t have gone to war in 1939 because the Axis Powers are all such mellow chaps now. It really doesn’t work that way. And given the rather strong Nationaist tendencies we’ve seen in Japan regarding whaling, visits to the Yasukuni Shrine and their general refusal to acknowlege the extent of their atrocities during the war, I don’t particularly trust them now.
Hone’s a practical man, good on him go for the money. But he runs the risk of alienating his few highly principled and white supporters ( Bradford and Minto), must be a bitter pill for them. Dotcoms a joke, if he doesn’t go to jail he’s going to be bankrupt, if you believe a single word from that guys mouth why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and get some shares in Mega ( or whatever lie he’s trying to sell). What interest does an internet pirate have in the TPP, or child poverty, or domestic abuse. Mind you long as your eye’s are open the alliance could be useful to Mana and I am sure Hone’s eyes are, he’s not stupid, I hope he doesn’t think the rest of Mana are.
Sounds like you buy totally into the simplisitic one dimensional mainstream establishment view of Dotcom as ‘an internet pirate’ … pure self serving Hollywood typecasting….it is Hollywoods and Keys agenda to propagate that image and you buy it.
Consider Dotcom as a person – not as defined by the MSM?
Someone who grew up in poverty and has now endorsed the Mana agenda of social justice, and taxing the rich!
How Mana and TIP define themselves is what is important ….what they have stated so far is impressive….they are both anti establishment – anti selling out, and for freedom and self determination – progressive high ideals in this cynical neo liberal quasi-fascist state NZ has drifted into. They both have the potential to attract and give voice to a lot of disenfranchised and marginalised NZers.
If Mana and TIP can work together the Torys are dogtucker this election, and they know it.
Riiiiiight – in cartoon terms that would be the equivalent of Charlie Brown always trusting that Lucy won’t move the football.
If you prefer thinking in cartoon terms as defined for you by MSM/MGM then the smarmy smiling hollow man – John Key might be the man for you Populuxe1
I don’t see Dotcom rushing to sue the media for defamation.
Only those who buy into the MSM let them set the agenda…like those who buy the ‘internet pirate’ cartoon character typecasting nonsense.
I’m not even going to start enumerating the list of logical fallacies in that one
You prefer one line spins to reasoned dialectical debate…you fail to substantiate the claims you put forward.
Actually you’re the one being undialectical by getting all snooty passive-aggressive and refusing toaddress the possibility you might actually be wrong. Mind you, Marx was exactly the same with Lascalle. Carry on.
Happy to address the possibility of being wrong if you could actually define and make a reasoned argument that could be responded to rather than attacking the messenger rather than the message.
Passive aggressive pot kettle.
Well do you have any evidence that Dotcom is anything other than a manipulative, egocentric capitalist like John Key?
Its not my wish or intention to disprove your negative assertions that originate from your buying into the MSM / Key regime spin.
If you cannot base your assertions on credible reason and fact that’s not my problem- it’s yours.
Actually my opinion has far more to do with his documented criminal history and the fact he gave money to John Banks. I regard Banks as one of the most evil and dangerous men in NZ politics in the last decade. Anyone who gives him money is completely without ethics.
Banks is a has been clown.
KDC used and exposed Banks for the power whore he was, while Key quite likely was behind covering up for his Tea Party buddy- if you can believe Don Brash that is!
KDCs no angel and nor is Hone but they both know how to deal to these smarmy neo liberals MFs lead by Key, who are selling out our country and our sovereignty.
The internet party is in essence modelled on the pirate party philosophy, which is entirely antithetical to sovereignty.
populuxe1 I’m no expert on the Pirate Party or whether TIP is modelled on them but on the question of the sovereignty of the individual to privacy and freedom hope we can agree the issue is relevant to NZ where our PM installs his boyhood buddy as head of SIS spying, a Gov Gen who was probably complicit with US war crimes in Afghanistan(see Nicky Hagers ‘Other Peoples Wars’) and Jenny Shipley running the selling off of my own home town Chch while she was chairwoman of Mainzeal who went bust and left a mess of debts to workers while being paid $1000/day by the govt to oversee the ‘rebuild’.
If the cancellation of democracy at ECAN, spying on NZers, being a proxy to US global imperialism and hegemony is your thing then go on voting for the smiling smarmy assassin-
I’d personally prefer ‘internet pirates’ like TIPs KDC and Manas staunch principles of freedom of speech, justice and self determination to Jon Kee Lees corporate welfare handouts, fascism, theft, lies and slavery to US/corporate dictates anyday….they are the real criminals.
I’ve never voted National or Key in my life, thanks – and I suggest you familarise yourself with pirate parties and the libertarian fanboys who run them
Hi Bert, you do realize dotcoms convictions are a matter of public record. They are fact and not opinion. He is a smart man and has fooled you very easily, don’t waste your time defending this scoundrel. It is a valid political strategy to use this man, but don’t delude yourself, if he cared about social justice he’d be buying weetbix for kids in schools not prancing around pretending to be a DJ covered in fluorescent light bulbs. Why don’t you donate some money to Mega and keep your fingers crossed some of it ends up helping some people in desperate need, you’d have better luck giving it to Paula Bennett, sad but true.
Is child cancer an acceptable alternative to Weetbix?
PS: I love the way you right wingers pretend charity is a measure of good character.
Funny, I was just about to say something similar about Bad’s citing of Dotcom’s donations to the Christchurch rebuild appeal etc…
Feel free to whine about it Pops.
Ok, cheers. I will. Hypocrisy!
Are you engaged in the feeble pretence that my opinions can make someone else a hypocrite?
Nah, I was mocking Bad. You’ll keep.
Funny, i only cited these two charitable contributions by DotCom coz some clown further up the page demanded that He had donated to charity otherwise He was in some way unfit to be in an alliance with the Mana Party…
Libertarians and neoliberals are fine with private charity
“Funny, i only cited these two charitable contributions by DotCom coz some clown further up the page demanded that He had donated to charity otherwise He was in some way unfit to be in an alliance with the Mana Party”
”$50,000 to Christchurch earthquake recovery fund, ”$50,000 to a rugby player who was left in a wheelchair after an on-field injury”
That’s not really what I wrote, but not unexpected from you. 🙂
Commendable, but a bit light on reducing poverty, especially since he was worth 50 mill before he got busted and 60k pm since. Not really proof enough he’s a convert just yet.
And really, shame on you for picking on the venerable Sue Bradford, who has done more to better the lives of the vulnerable, against all odds, than fat wallet on a promise ever will. That mana (read Hone) are prepared to choose money over her is evidence enough of what dire straights mana are now in.
Laughable Alien, definitely the script from another planet, another view of the ”venerable Sue Bradford, snigger, might read like this: she has done more to further Her own ambitions while claiming to be championing ‘the poor’ who even after Her stint in the Parliament where she appeared to have lost her voice remained as poor if not poorer for the experience,
i concede the point that Dotcom hasn’t as per your apparent requirement beggared Himself to the state of dressing in sack cloth in dishing out his dough to the poor,(but then that should be the States job of redistribution not His),
How bout you print up all the receipts of your largesse given to the poor in the past few years Alien, it seems hypocritical to point the finger when it’s just as likely your wallet has remained firmly entrenched in your back pocket,
Obviously Mana are doing it hard, their 1500–2000 members aint rich so having spare coin to donate to the Party would be a hard ask, which is exactly why i see DotCom’s involvement as crucial,
It’s obvious that DotCom has an idea on how much money will be spent on advertising for the Internet Party this election, probably up to a million bucks, there will be very little extra cost to advertise as the Mana-Internet Alliance,
Quid pro quo, if successful the Internet Party get to coat-tail on the back of Hone’s Te Tai Tokerau seat, in return, Mana get some very hefty nation-wide advertising, possibly even on the all important TV which it’s obvious the Mana Party just cannot afford,(the ten bucks i donated today sure has hell wont buy it)…
Sure I’ve never been worth 50 million or lived on 60 k a month, but then I’m not all of a sudden claiming I’m a rich man doing what I can to help get rid of poverty in NZ.
I did give a few quid to the woman collecting for the homeless outside Glenview New World yesterday, so like Lennon said, we all do what we can, man… Or at least some of us do.
Still a shame, and has to be said quite undignified that you’ll rat on Bradford in favour of ,com, but they say every one has a price, it’s just likely Sue’s is a lot higher than yours or Hone’s.
Bad: Laughable Alien, definitely the script from another planet, another view of the ”venerable Sue Bradford, snigger, might read like this: she has done more to further Her own ambitions while claiming to be championing ‘the poor’ who even after Her stint in the Parliament where she appeared to have lost her voice remained as poor if not poorer for the experience,
That’s pretty wide of the mark. Many rated her as one of the most effective politicians when she was in the House. And she has continued on the ground, working for those in poverty – it’s been noticeable to many on the ground in Auckland the things she has done for Auckland Action Against Poverty. Just like she did in the past for the community work intiatives in Centre Point in Auckland. It’s not something that gets her front page attention – she just keeps beavering away at such things, for no pay. And now and then I hear about such things through people who has worked with in the community.
I agree – I rate sue highly, very highly and bad12 is way off the mark in his attacks on her imo. To me it is just base bullying, totally unnecessary, and wrong anyway.
What annoyed me a lot was Bradford airing her views about this proposed alliance to the MEDIA before the party conference had even taken place! The place to air those views would have been at the meeting, not vause discord through the press before hand. Prior to the meeting, only the leader should be the spokesperson.
Karol ”wide of the mark” is a matter of opinion, we both obviously have differing ones…
karol, I think you may mean the People’s Centre. I’m pretty sure that Sue was never involved with the sort of community initiatives undertaken at Bert Potter’s Centrepoint. Most of those who had been would be more likely to be found high up in ACT than in any party Sue has ever been involved with.
“That mana (read Hone) are prepared to choose money over her is evidence enough of what dire straights mana are now in.”
That isn’t true allen – it is a lie. Why not stick to the truth instead of foul deception you wanker.
If Sue is allowed to walk, then that’s exactly what will have happened, so no lies there.
And wanker, good stuff 😆
“then that’s exactly what will have happened”
another lie – wow – does thy tongue dribbleith of its own accord?
“another lie – wow – does thy tongue dribbleith of its own accord?”
All we know so far is Bradford and others have walked out of mana’s gathering. If Hone chooses .com’s cash over them, it is how I say. You can be as bitter as you like, but it won’t change the way it is.
Maybe if your tongue wasn’t so far up Hone’s arse you’d have a better view of the two nuts responsible for the mana split.
Seems you’re way too invested to be impartial.
lol such a wit aren’t you – but a bit fixated on the nether regions…
“it is how I say” eh wot? Will you be there? Are you a participant? No I didn’t think so – lol you know zip, understand less and expose those truths often.
Allowed to walk Alien, is Bradford some form of fucking Goddess in your eyes or something,
If Bradford don’t like where Mana is going with the proposed alliance with the Internet Party then she should take that walk and being free start Her own political party(which is bound to be a raging success)…
“you know zip, understand less and expose those truths often.”
Says the bloke who thinks Hone’s not selling principles or selling out the left wing members of mana.
If I recall correctly it was you who once wrote along the lines of “I prefer my left wing a bit more radical”. How’s that working out for you these days? I call joker or starstruck or both 😉
“Says the bloke who thinks Hone’s not selling principles or selling out the left wing members of mana.”
The discussions continue and the Mana Movement will decide.
You know nothing but still spurt forth inadequately attempting to smear. Seems like you need to have a wee talk with the mirror allen because I almost feel like you are talking to yourself with a lot of your smear-comments.
There are no smears marty mars, inadequately attempted or otherwise.
He stole that money mate. But full credit to the guy if he has done something for kids with cancer, not going to argue that that is not a good thing ( you knew that anyway though eh). By the way acknowledging dotcoms a crook doesn’t make you right wing. You seem to think denying he’s a crook is a valid and strangely mandatory left wing position.
If you believe that Crim Dot Con has signed up a secret electorate MP to his party then you will believe the crap he spouted to Mana. This is nowt but a vanity project by a man with narcissistic personality disorder and a string of convictions facing deportation and civil damages in the USA.
For every person who thinks Crim is Robin Hood there are probably 20 who want nothing to do with him. That’s lot of votes to the non Crim side of the ledger. For the first time I can see National breaking the 50% barrier.
The Nats coalition of the Cons won by 10000 votes in 2011.
5% would be more than enough to see them out. Worried? You should be.
If you think John Casino Royale Key and his mates from Hollywood are credible and genuine remember, most NZers disagree and now might just at last have the means to send that message loud and clear.
Lovin it! Watch the Torys desperately spin this and Mien Kampf that as they see power falling from their corporate sponsored grasp later this year.
its good to see you have grasped that kim dotcom is not running for parliament. or do you now believe that rodney hide was never more than a mouthpiece with alan gibbs hand up his bum?
With all the “fairy tales” about Kim Dotcom, and how idiot Kiwis suck all this up, perhaps do some investigations, dear folks:
http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/the-rise-and-fall-of-an-internet-heavyweight-mega-millionaire-kim-schmitz/c4s4546/
“Schmitz was born in 1974 in Kiel, Germany, and grew up in northern Germany. His father piloted the luxury cruise liner “MS Deutschland.” His mother was a chef. He attended a posh boarding school, the Staatliche Internat Schloss Plön, and got his first computer when he was nine. Because gaming software cost too much for him to buy, he figured out how to make illegal copies and went into business selling them to friends for a few marks a piece.”
Read the full article: The Rise And Fall Of An Internet Heavyweight: “Mega” Millionaire Kim Schmitz
Also try this:
Kim Schmitz, aka Kim Dotcom according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom
Other info: http://metromag.co.nz/current-affairs/the-complete-and-utter-history-of-kim-dotcom/
Compliments of a Central European friend of mine, who does not dare posting on TS any more! So all these stories about poverty, sugar on toast, and what else there comes, forget it, he was not that poor, got at least social security support in Germany, when needed, and later forgot all about poverty and misery, enjoying life to the full, shitting on those that would never dare to think of luxury!
Speaking of checking your own facts, in what sense is a state run publicly funded boarding school “posh”?
Yep, Anoymous Bloke is quite correct. Staatliche Internat Schloss Plön is a state boarding school, though as a Gymnasium it’s more like a prep school than anything – the “Staatliche” should give that away. The fact that it’s in an old castle is about as meaningful as old Naz1 bunkers being turned into art galleries and night clubs.
Its use as accommodation left its mark on the old castle, which became increasingly dilapidated. Advice in 1986/1988 showed that the site needed major investment and would only be saved from ruin by spending tens of millions of deutschmarks…
This is obviously some strange new usage of the word “posh” of which I was previously unaware 🙂
You are not familiar with the German school system, as “staatlich” does not necessarily mean it is a school easily accessible by ordinary students from say working class parents. The “Internat” at Ploen has been an elite school for a long time, as this old “Die Zeit” document from 1970 proves, and you need to understand German to read it:
http://www.zeit.de/1970/21/ploener-internats-zustaende
Also this:
http://www.butenploener.de/schule/das-ehemalige-internat/
Kim Schmitz is likely to have been at that school some time soon after that, and that was when it had an elite status amongst the anyway publicly administered schooling system in that country!
There simply is not the kind of “private school” ownership as there is here in New Zealand or some other countries, but the “Internat” that Kim Schmitz aka Dotcom went to still had elite status!
Why don’t you go talk to Kim.Com with your concerns and get clarifications before spouting all kinds of accusations and innuendos as you weren’t there at the time to know all of the family’s exact circumstances?
Why do you not talk to Kim Dotcom then, before you deny or dispute all the info I supplied? You are a hypocrite!
You didn’t supply “info” – you supplied the fatuous assertion that people who live in German social housing are “posh”.
Whoosh! Watch those goalposts move! The modern version of the school was founded with permission from the Poms in 1946. The fact that Prussian nobility were educated there in the 19thC is interesting but irrelevant. You are trying to convince me it was a “posh” school when Schmitz attended, and failing miserably.
I note the reference to Marxism among the student body. So very very posh. 😆
Pop – it is not about the “facade” , e. g. a “castle”, it is about the kind of education and what kinds of students get admitted to there!
Also to mention is not just the “public” aspect of education in Germany, but that social housing there is hardly to be compared with “slum” life, as Dotcom suggested in his speech at the Mana meeting.
Social housing in Germany is way ahead of New Zealand standards, when it comes to quality and availability, but sadly, like in many countries, it is slowly being dismantled.
I do not buy into Dotcom having grown up in “slum like” living conditions for one moment. People believing that are ill informed or idiots.
I would prefer German social housing to the NZ equivalent any time, as what you get here is low standard!
Do posh people with rich cruise liner captain parents tend to live in them, because your narrative just fell over.
Oh, and the MS Deutschland was launched in 1998. Perhaps Herr Schmitz Sr. has/had a time-machine?
Perhaps read one article in the left leaning paper from Germany called Tagesspiegel:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/weltspiegel/portrait-kim-schmitz-die-grosse-nummer/6106160.html
Also if the mix up with MS Deutschland may have occurred, it is likely his father worked for Deilmann, a shipping company with a longer history, so his later employment on MS Deutschland may have been after working in similar roles on other vessels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Deilmann_Cruises
A “Die Welt’ article on Dotcom, get a translation perhaps.
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article13824769/Kim-Schmitz-alias-Kimble-alias-Dotcom-alias-Dr-Evil.html
Kim Schmitz on Harald Schmidt Show on German TV many years ago, before he was ever known here. He came across as a totally free business person, wanting less rules and regulations, basically supporting policies the ACT Party in NZ support.
Get a translator, do your research, but most here are like sheeples following the head ram, asking few questions. I despair at the lack of scrutiny and intellect of people here.
Nothing there supports the notion that state run public boarding schools are “posh”. People who work for shipping companies are no more or less likely to be abusive drunks than anyone else, and your whole narrative of rich parents and a privileged upbringing just came crashing down.
I believed certain things as a teenager that I wouldn’t necessarily endorse now.
Oh, and I don’t need to translate anything, you’re the one with a story to sell. Not going too well so far is it?
As one poster here, Mr Pete George, appears to be a bit more onto it regarding this topic, perhaps thank him for this translation of an article in “Die Welt” that covers much of what Kim Dotcom, aka Kim Schmitz, is about:
http://yournz.org/2014/04/14/die-welt-on-kim-schmitzdotcom/
The truth about the man will eventually come out, and while the New Zealand government surely has a lot to answer for also, I fear the generous faith some still have in Kim Dotcom will be fading away soon. To fight what the NSA does it may be better to rely on Mr Snowden and a few others, rather than a Kim Dotcom.
Central European friend of yours? Funny that I saw the same stuff posted on Facebook by someone claiming to be a recently returned Kiwi singer who’d been working in Kiel. Of course, this doesn’t mean that it’s not true, but does hint that it’s part of a deliberate smear campaign.
How I love the smell of scared Tories in the morning!
Comrade Olsen –
“Of course, this doesn’t mean that it’s not true, but does hint that it’s part of a deliberate smear campaign.”
If this was simply a “smear campaign” it seems to have been going on for nearly two decades now, bits being added over the course of history.
As for a singer and a Facebook post, I have no idea what you are talking about. Some people may have access to the same information, it may be as simple as that. Also do bits mentioned on various blogsites get read and passed on or quoted rather quickly these days.
As for tories being scared, yes, some may be, but surely not about Dotcom. They would have plenty other stuff to manipulate the public with.
Perhaps discussing all this may have the beneficial effect of saving Hone Harawira and Mana members a lot of potential embarrassment, if they give reasonable consideration about all aspects. I do not consider myself as being a tory.
May I ask, is this an exclusive blog, where one needs to ask for permission to post, as others seem to get a lot of freedom here? I am confused.
[New posters have to have their comments released – MS]
An intriguing comment from Marc at The Daily Blog – Dotcom’s road to Damascus?
Dotcom/Internet and Mana/Hui-net seem like political chalk and cheese. Mana are very unlikely to convert on the road to Coatesville, they have wisely met on neutral or their own territory.
Could it be Dotcom’s road to Rotorua?
An inventive and long winded biblical analogy – placing an expectation on Dotcom to change- but why should he?
He is already potentially an inspiring and positive role model for many of Manas actual and potential followers – that business, innovation and success are not inherently bad but that vested interests (Hollywood and Key) do act to marginalize threats to their monopolies and power.
Mana and TIP represent differing approaches and solutions to injustice, oppression and poverty- while Mana want compassion and help for the disadvantaged, TIP represents the ethos of using your own initiative to be creative and succeed on your own terms.
Both address the same problems in different, often quite complimentary ways…both are stuanch, uncompromising and appealing to the disenfranchised-they both offer hope and solutions.
Both partys are self described as anti establishment and both can work together without having to change or compromise a lot.
It is a win win combination – for everybody – except the Torys that is.
You have yet to offer any evidence of Dotcom being an inspiration for anything other than self-interest and showing off.
Self made millionaire using his talent and creativity to ‘make it’ while up against the almighty US of A, Hollywood and smarmy John Casino Royale Keys corporate sponsored network of spy cronies….not inspiration enough ?
Ladies and gentlemen! Behold: Cognitive Dissonance! How does that make Dotcom any different from Peter Jackson for fucks sake?! Do you actually think for a moment that Dotcom wouldn’t have gotten into bed with the Great White Satan if the offer had been there? Jesus GOd you’re like Mowgli fresh out of the fucking jungle!
The same Peter Jackson who’s often held up as an inspiring role model? You’re saying him and Kim.com are the same?
Or are you just frothing and spewing with no regard to the massive hole in your “argument”?
And what would you say about the intelligence and political thinking of the sort of person who holds Peter Jackson up as an inspiring role model?
I’d say that you’re introducing feeble irrelevancies again, since Jackson is more of an inspiration to artists than he is to politicians or human resource managers.
Then you clearly don’t know many artists – he is a mass-market producer of easily digestible lowest common denominator kitsch who throws his weight, money and influence around to get laws bent or changed entirely to benefit his purposes – not a million miles away from Dotcom really.
I know a lot of artists.
Jackson is generally regarded as a good person. A few people really dislike him. But the general feeling is, he’s not perfect, but people respect him for the enthusiasm he brings to his work.
I suggest you talk to sculptors in the Wellington region who have been squeezed out of public comissions by Weta muscle. I suggest you talk to short film makers who can’t get funding because thanks to Jackson’s recommendations they can’t get funding unless they are commercial. You should talk to artists who work on film and have been completely marginalised by the changes to employment law Jackson wanted.
And you can add to that list Populuxe1. A not insignificant number of talented artists have had breakdowns both physical and mental health related, after having to meet unbelievable and often unreasonable ‘changed deadline’ and ‘re-shooting’ workloads in the Weta workshops.
All part of the industry of course, but how a company supports those who do the work says much of the people who run the companies, and Weta could and should do a lot better considering their position in the zeitgeist of NZ Film and associated artforms.
There are many lives that have been swept under that long red carpet.
Gosh, an artist whose known for throwing his weight around. Sorry, yet another in the fucking inexhaustible list of artists who are known for throwing their weight around.
Nice people? Sometimes. Driven, determined to succeed? Yep. Infinitely unlikely to ever need anything from Pops? That too.
if this is thebasis for your vote, who did you vote for in 2011 and where are you thinking of putting yourvote this year. my own answer to both, as i have written before, is the green party.
Tweet from Sue Bradford today:
I should hope so. Bradford and Minto, while I may not always agree with them politically, are not stupid, and Dotcom represents the sort of thing they have been fighting against their entire careers.
Didn’t you see Minto on TV3 speaking with Vikram Kumar?- he seemed quite openminded to the potential synergies of an alliance with TIP.
Bradford has always been a rather reactionary battler, who herself comes from a background wealth and priviledge- not that that is a crime … but is it her place on the party list that’s likely up for grabs if an alliance is formed?
It’s not surprising that Sue has stuck to her principles. The “late into the night” suggests a lot of debate. That’s healthy, I would have been suspicious of a quick decision.
Dotcom will have to be patient and wait for Hui-net.
Morgan Godfery was tweeting that Willie on Marae was saying there seems to be a split in Mana between the Pakeha left-wing branch and the Maori side. The Maori branch is keen on a deal, the Pakeha left-wing not very keen at all.
I really hope there’s not a split because that would look terrible in regards to the Maori seats. You’d have a Pakeha party (The Internet Party) getting into parliament through Maori seats. Firstly, that’s a dangerous road to allow these non-Maori parties to make a use of the Maori seats. Secondly, there may be more of a backlash against the Maori seats. You already have Farrar laying down the road that they’re not necessary anymore. If they are abused by Pakeha parties, they may very quickly disappear.
Which is bad. Sure, there’s more Maori representation in parliament because MMP, but the Maori seats allow Maori issues to be campaigned on in the community.
Māori seats offer those of us on the Māori roll two votes – just like the other seats. Any political party can contest Māori seats.
The right-wing wankers will always spin to try and get rid of the Māori seats as they always have done since they were formed, so nothing new there. Will this add weight to their tainted view? Maybe, but anything that happens will be used by them anyway so really it doesn’t matter.
I don’t think there is a split along the lines you mention but i do think some want to make that the split.
plus 1
if the illogic of disraeli is followed, mana should not have pakeha members or candidates…
At the moment, Mana is an inclusive party of various races which performs well in Maori seats because of its strong campaigning on issues that matter to Maori.
We could have a situation where a largely Maori party (Mana without the Bradford/Pakeha Left branch) is allowing a largely Pakeha party (the Internet Party) to coattails in to parliament from the Maori seats.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.
But it could lead to renewed speculation at whether the Maori seats are justified. All we need is National to raise the dog whistle again.
“At the moment, Mana is an inclusive party of various races which performs well in Maori seats because of its strong campaigning on issues that matter to Maori.”
close but actually
At the moment, Mana is an inclusive party of various races which performs well in Maori seats because of its strong campaigning on issues that matter to Mana members.
It is the kaupapa that binds Mana – the belief in supporting those most disadvantaged and the belief in equality which is where tino rangatiratanga comes in.
I’ve been predicting this for a while – tino rangatiratanga was always going to be an uneasy fit with socialism.
There’s no inherent contradiction with tino rangatiratanga and socialism. However. There most certainly is when we’re talking about well, the likes of these charlatans.
I disagree – either it’s the equally shared property of the state or it’s the sole property of the tangata whenua with a hierarchy of authority based on geneology. I can’t see how you can have both.
“with a hierarchy of authority based on geneology”
You do not understand what it is, how it works, or why it is important and quite frankly I can’t be bothered explaining it to you.
And that’s why so many Pakeha, Tau Iwi and non-tribal urban Maori have no sympathy
Nah you have no sympathy because your a red-neck…
Uncle Tom
Yes you are populuxe, a laughable one at that, who exactly is talking of the State being the sole owner of property in New Zealand,
No-one as far as i can see, unless you are proposing such,
Your claims above are pure colonialism, ”the natives should overturn their multi-hundred year history of collective ownership based upon Your notions of what is right and what isn’t” would seem to be the sum total of your ‘thought’,
Don Brash would find sympathy with your view, very few i would suggest would have an iota of sympathy with your neo-colonial views here…
Firstly I would rather you didn’t imply I used a word like “natives”. I am confused as to how you prioritise various aspects of this “multi-hundred year history of collective ownership” as slavery and intertribal warfare seem to have dropped out of favour. Can we please stop pretending tikanga and Maoritanga are fixed and unchanging, it makes Maori sound like undynamic fossils.
what the hell populuxe has your current inane rant got to do with your view that Maori ownership of lands they have possessed since they first set foot on Aotearoa doesn’t fit into the Mana Party kaupapa because it isn’t in your view ‘socialist’,
Oh of course, you and Pete George, on an intellectual level of equals, both subject changers when cornered by one or other absurdity that they have posted…
pops called bad12, “Uncle Tom”
‘The phrase “Uncle Tom” has also become an epithet for a person who is slavish and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures, particularly a black person who behaves in a subservient manner to white people; or any person perceived to be a participant in the oppression of their own group.[1][2]’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom
well which meaning were you using pops?
Doesn’t really matter because this thread shows what a lowlife fake you are.
Are you their (Pakeha, Tau Iwi and non-tribal urban Maori) representative? No of course not, you can hardly speak for yourself without getting saliva on your foot.
Well you sem to be giving the impression that you are are some sort of representative based entirely on ethnicity, so by that logic I guess I can claim to be representative of Pakeha and Tau Iwi. By the way, there are a lot of urban Maori who have yet to see anything out of the Treaty settlements, you might want to explain that to them wiith all your great mana.
lol piss off noddy – I am always just speaking for me – that you don’t get that shows how dismally dim you are – very.
You don’t represent this pakeha, Pop.
Stop generalising, not all Maori think and believe the same!
Adam Bennett writes, “Sue Bradford and other leading Mana Party figures have walked out of the party’s AGM over its decision to continue negotiations towards an alliance with Kim Dotcom’s Internet Party.”
But later, “Ms Bradford this morning confirmed she was among those who had walked out.
“We left us last night so she perhaps includes us among those people because there was deep debate, deep dissension and resistance to the idea of going into an alliance with the Internet Party.”
“Some of us, both Maori and Pakeha, are really disturbed by the idea of going into an alliance with a neo-liberal billionaire.”
Though that is not a resignation. Is it?
I am disturbed also!
Poor old Sue and John about to be told to sod off, superseded by the chunky German and his filthy lucre.
Paheka are only allowed in the Mana tent because Hone has some use for them, John and Sues usefulness has come to an end with the arrival of Mr Dotcom.
John Minto
“we have a very strong congruence with the Internet Party, on three very important issues, (and what are those?)… and they would be getting rid of the GCSB, closing it down and withdrawing New Zealand from the five eyes alliance. The other issue; privacy on the internet, extremely important and an internet bill of rights. And thirdly, access to the internet for families on low incomes, because we have this internet, we have this digital divide in New Zealand, so on those three areas, we have common ground.”
http://www.3news.co.nz/Simon-Shepherd-interviews-Vikram-Kumar-and-John-Minto/tabid/1348/articleID/337931/Default.aspx
Cherrypicking much? Minto sound svery careful and equivocal in that interview – three points of agreement does not an alliance make.
More or less what happened to the Maori Party when they took their thirty pieces of silver from National
The Maori Party Enabled three more years of John Casino Royale Keys selling off of NZ.
The Mana/TIP alliance will end that.
How?
National didn’t need the Maori party to get the numbers to govern.
National used the Maori Party to get greater leverage and flexibility…used them and spat them out…just like they have done to most NZers…especially us here in Chch. Huge swing coming against the Torys down here… Mana/TIP will be part of the change needed across NZ.
The Christchurch area has always been socialist.
Buggered if I know why though, pommie immigrants?
One silver lining of the devastation of the quakes has been it has exposed the fraudulent nature of the corporate govt establishment. Chch people were generally apathetic moderates previously- now a lot are waking up to the thin veneer of credibility and the very ugly reality behind John Key and his neo liberal Corporatocracy – quasi Fascism.
When the govt comes and and seizes the homes and life savings of honest elderly gentlefolk and commandeers our regional govt (ECAN) democracy by installing govt serving Commissars to hijack the control of water for Amy Adams Country club corporate farming then the average Cantab starts to get thinking this aint right!
Neither the Greens nor Labour have done sweet FA as the main the elected so called ‘opposition’ ,,, there are thousands of votes going up for grabs to any honest party that will stand up for the people down here and call for a stop to the endless bullying of people by this regime and its corporate sponsors.
Poor old bm – spinning lines for ‘the man’ and pretending that he has some insight. You are ignorant and dim – that’s why you’d be excluded from the tent not because of your ethnicity.
From the Nation this morning, Hone Harawira ” the debate lasted for five hours, the vote to continue negotiations with Kim DotCom was UNANIMOUS from ALL the branches, Sue Bradford left the Hui befor the vote was cast”,
A toy toss from Sue?? surely not???…
Sue as she is a genuine battler for justice but if she cannot see we need to work together to end the Tory sell out of Aotearoa NZ … I hope she comes around to working constructively together.
i have a differing view of Sue Bradford than you have,(i will keep it to myself for the moment), this tho is a ‘vintage’ Bradford ‘toy-toss’ where She is obviously not running the agenda of the Mana Party and has walked out even befor the vote was taken,
Sue has just been made to realize that She is NOT bigger then the wider movement no matter how high She pumps up Her profile at the front of particular protests,(an unkind person might infer that She is at the forefront of such protests for that singular reason)…
I don’t entirely disagree with you…the last thing we need is reactionary toy tossing…we do need to maintain constructive dialogue and decision making and — to get rid of Key.
Robust debate is healthy but testing of us all…and never easy for those who do not prevail…that then is the test of their dedication to the collective cause and our ability to welcome them back when the heat of debate has cooled.
Yes bert, the point is well made, if Sue Bradford cannot accept the unanimous will of the Mana party reps at the annual Hui then it suggests to me that She was not attached to the movement for the progression of the movement,( and an unkind person will draw the logical inference from that)…
To keep the waka moving forward everyone must paddle in unison and it takes time to get that unison – I’m okay with some Mana members needing more time and I respect Sue and other members who aren’t convinced or may never be convinced.
There will always be differences inside any party, it’s normal and healthy. Ultimately a party has to make decisions to be able to operate. That’s what democratic processes are for.
Mana has just earned themselves One new member here, i will be signing up on the website today,
The wider whanau will be getting one of a very sparse pieces of advice directed there way in coming days…
great news bad12!!!
The waka can also move to the left or right even when everyone is paddling in unison.
Sometimes you have to paddle in a direction that appears to be moving you away from the objective but a good navigator knows that and takes it into consideration.
+1 marty mars,
a 1 built as tall as Tane Mahuta 🙂
Unanimous from all branches (and the Youth Wing) is significantly different from being unanimous from the party membership.
Was a membership vote taken? Were individual branch votes taken?
Today’s quisling query award goes to guess who, the 200 who attended the meetings are the representatives of the Mana Party members(but you would know this),in other words just to make it clear for you, the delegates from the Mana Branches,
One would assume that such delegates, just like other political parties are empowered to voice the wishes of the members of the branches they represent,
The delegates vote was unanimous in favor of further negotiations with the Internet Party, there appears to be one abstention in the form of Sue Bradford who walked out of the meeting,(presuming),she seen the writing on the wall that Her dissenting voice would be the single opposed vote,
In walking out of the debate Bradford has failed to represent Her branch of Mana(that’s assuming that she was actually the delegate of a particular branch), and if the ‘walkout’ by Bradford from the Hui is in fact a ‘walkout’ from the Mana Party i doubt the numbers of people She is capable of taking with Her from the membership will number more than a handful…
I don’t know how decisions are made within Mana.
You’re suggesting that it won’t have been a unanimous membership decision.
You’re assuming it was a unanimous delegate decision. That must mean you don’t know that, even though you then say “The delegates vote was unanimous in favor of further negotiations with the Internet Party”.
You don’t know if Bradford was a delegate or not.
So apart from sneering you haven’t done anything but guess.
So apart from talking a load of shit George what have you done, here’s a hint, GO back up the comments to my comment number (18) posted at 8.39 this morning,
If you are going to publish lies George you will have to do way better than this effort…
So Bad, you don’t actually know and having been called out are performing a vintage toy toss
Oh F off you toady and let George answer the comment directed at Him, Go back up the Post and read comment (18) even for a simpleton like you it is brief enough to give you and George enlightenment enough),
Not that the truth has anything to do with your continuing whine in this post right…
You accused me of lying but haven’t given any details.
bad12 @ 18
Do you mean Q&A? Is that an actual quote or is it your paraphrasing?
bad12 @ 18.2.1
If that’s not guessing what is it based on?
Yes you have got me there George it was from this morning’s Q+A on TV1, words straight outta the mouth of Hone Harawira,(quick ask another quisling’s query),
From the second paragraph of your comment(18.2.1.1),”You’re assuming that it was a unanimous delegates decision”,etc etc etc”,
The only thing i am assuming this morning George is that like your mate populuxe you are stirring in this post because of fear of a strengthened Mana Party if it forms the proposed alliance with the Internet Party,
i do not need to assume you are a Liar, you just proved it…
You’re assuming wrong.
I don’t fear a strengthened Mana Party, if they get a stronger vote and more MPs good on them.
I don’t fear the Internet Party either, same applies, if they find a way of getting into Parliament then good on them, it would mean they have managed to get enough people to vote for them.
I support small parties getting their fair proportion of representation, the 5% threshold denies them that.
Caught out lying Pete George,(as usual),does a quick subject change,(who would have thunk it), changing the subject to His favorite, me me me me me(oh what a surprise),
Must say tho that George is fully transparent again this morning, no-one will have failed to see right through Him…
You’ve shown yourself up.
And you keep claiming I’ve lied but you haven’t said what I’m supposed to have lied about, so it’s just an empty accusation.
For Gods sake, its like having a debate with a fucking four year old with adult language skills,
In the second paragraph of your comment (18.2.11), you said this: ”You’re assuming it was a unanimous delegates decision. That must mean you don’t know that”,
Lie one, i did not ‘assume it was a unanimous vote’, Hone Harawira said on Q+A this morning that it was a unanimous delegates decision,
Lie two, that must mean that i DO know that in relation to it being a unanimous delegates decision,
2 Lies in the one sentence George, followed up with lying a number of times about not having posted the first lies, your fast approaching SSLands status…
Actually it’s more like watching a fight between two four-year olds, but Pete has the better manners. (gets popcorn)
I made an assumption about a number of your assumptions – I presume they weren’t meant as lies.
All you had to do was clarify instead of hissy fitting.
Funny and ironic.
No George you made up a deliberate lie that i had assumed something and by your latest dance on the head of your pin you still are lying…
All I know is that Sue left before the vote was taken. This is not necessarily the same as implied by the term “walking out”.
Don’t know Pete. But perhaps as a bottom line we could assume that the process was AT LEAST as democratic as the process employed by the Maori Party when it resolved to become The Brown National Party.
What was it, a hui of something like 100-200 people or some tiny figure like that against a membership at the time of thousands. Maori having just list voted heavily for Labour.
What a hoot hearing Fran O’Sullivan going on about it being utterly “ridiculous” that political identities are giving KDC the time of day. Fearful is what the Right is. The masses are following THEIR MMP example. “Oh Woe ! What Bad Sorts ! No Class !”
It’s risible. The haughtiness of the Right. The “How dare they !” which emits from the turkey necks of the Born to Rule.
well said North
It’s not just National and old school journalists who are in the Born to Rule club, Labour is entrenched there too. They’ve both played a part in ensuring our system of MMP makes it difficult for small parties to survive or start up successfully.
Labour are trying to assert their assumed Labour-led government mantle and they have to try ans show they will be in charge.
But what if the election result is something like Labour 25, Greens 15, NZ First 10, Mana/IP 3? That’s not out of the question. Labour could end up forming a Government without coalition majority.
The Maori party membership at the time North,(just off of the top of my head), was said to be 29 0r 39,000,
Currently such membership is said to be around the 5–800 mark, vying to be as relevant as George’s ex-pet United no-Future…
Members haven’t been asked to vote at all, you could go to the various regional AGMs or meetings beforehand but there was never anything that representative.
The general consensus was that you had to go to the National AGM to have a say.
“The general consensus was that you had to go to the National AGM to have a say.”
Doesn’t that restrict a say to those with the resources to travel?
Yeah it always is. But there were a number of cheap methods Mana organised to get down/up there and there was an attitude of not turning people away even if they couldn’t afford the registration fee.
But it is just an agreement to start negotiating, I know a number of delegates were clear that any alliance should have to be ratified by member vote.
The initial report made it clear that it was to “move forward with the negotiations” and a party process would be involved.
That means the delegates were effectively agreeing to put it to the membership rather than shutting down the proposal without the membership getting to decide, so that seems like a sound decision.
Of course……..things still very much at the exploratory stage.
That so early this has precipitated hysterical talk of ‘walk-out’, electoral destruction and so on says nothing about the state of MANA but heaps about the queasy feeling in the stomachs of the Born To Rule Right.
Having recently renewed my MANA membership I’m going to give it some time. Who knows what may happen ? My reaction to a future expose that a month ago KDC picked his nose in the Koru Club at Kaitaia Airport, or some such other horrifying scandal, may just have me join the ‘walk-out’.
In the interim I won’t be seeking advice from the Prebbles, the O’Sullivans, the Robinsons et al. They’re particularly unhinged at the moment. Not much help at all.
I thought Claire Robinson was going to burst a blood vessel on Q +A this morning. Very upset wasn’t she. I wonder why? (sarc.)
Clair Robinson comes across as very prejudiced towards the left. Irritating too.
Richard Prebble came across as a clown. To have him, who is the ACT party current election campaign dude, as a ‘commentator’ involving matters of other parties is weird. Obviously he is highly prejudiced, unjust,silly and very biased as he is speaking about an ‘enemy party’! Dumb selection for the panel.
Laila Hare did a fairer analysis, but being (I think) a Green party person, is again problematic.
They need to select non party members and people of repute that are more independent.
I used to like Dr Therese Arseneau (Q and A long ago!) and Dr Jon Johansson (Q and A) and Colin James (The Nation). These people were very good, intelligent, fair and a pleasure to listen to.
They are too professional, intelligent and objective in their analysis for Q + A Clem.
Bring them back, I say! ….Listen up, Q and A, and The Nation!
Has DotCom donated significant amounts of money to charity, well yes,feel free tho to whine about who He decided to donate money to,
”$50,000 to Christchurch earthquake recovery fund, ”$50,000 to a rugby player who was left in a wheelchair after an on-field injury”
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wikipedia/wiki/Kim_Dotcom
DotCom’s Megaupload a ‘criminal conspiracy’ simply set up to allow pirating of other’s copywrited material, don’t think so,
”In 2009 Forbes tracked one film, District 9, that was uploaded to MegaVideo more than 127 times and removed 89 times”
http://www.forbes.com/…/inside-mega-the-second-coming-of-kim-dot...
Hollywoods million dollar corporate sponsors of president Obama used Obama who used Key who used the unlawful raid on KDC as tribute to Washington and back to Hollywood.
Disneyland democracy.
Even the MSM hardly try to hide it as its so blatant, but they still play along with the Tory regime mudslinging agenda becoz they know TIP and Mana are going to help bring down this John Casino Royale Keys Corporatocracy and its selling out of our countrys sovereignty to the highest bidder.
Bring it on!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11237475
“However, Mana President Annette Sykes this morning said : “Our movement, I was concerned that it may be fragile and some of our membership – I don’t know whether some have chosen not to come back today.”
“There’s quite a number. We’re not talking hundreds, but we’re talking people who I think are leaders young and old and they are principled people who I have respect for. They’ve gone back to reflect with their branches.”
I think a Mana.Com alliance will be brilliant.
The Internet Party could concentrate on technology, Science, Fast affordable internet, New innovations, GCSB and the Spy law reforms while the social, economic and environmental policies are left to Mana to handle.
Such an alliance could be a very strong political force drawing in votes from the left and the right, young and the not so young, Maori and non Maori, the politically savvy and the missing millions of last election’s non voters.
Go for it, I say!
I think the Mana.Com alliance will cross the 5% threshold. Sure, it will potentially dent the % a little, but only a little, from each of all the other political parties, including National. One thing is clear : It will be in the left block and will make it harder for National to form a government after the next election.
My prediction of party votes %, based on nothing concrete, but intuition/observation is as follows:
National—————-36.0
Labour——————36.0
Greens——————10.0
NZ First——————8.0
Mana.Com—————5.0
Conservatives———–2.0
Maori Party————–1.0
ACT———————–1.0
United Future———–0.0
The idea that Mana.Com will reach 5% is laughable. It may get to 2-3% depending on how well they can push it.
How is the Internet Party going to take votes from National if they’re in an alliance with Mana? No one was suggesting that Mana was taking votes from National, were they?
The fact you have National and Labour at the same percentage shows that this is largely a fantasy conducted in your head.
The 2011 Tory coalition of sellout wannabees only won power by 10000 votes.
Thats only about 0.5% of the total vote.
Who knows what Mana.com will get but it is sure to be enough to contribute significantly to the Defeat of Key and Co and thus the desperate spinning and mudslinging from the Tory online and MSM proxies.
A lot of Mana.com votes will come from those who otherwise feel disenfranchised as the other so called opposition parties are a bunch of half arsed establishment sellouts anyway.
I’ve party voted Mana in the past with no gain of seat in parliament but now will be pretty sure my party vote will get results.
Theres a LOT of discontent out there and now its gona have a credible voice and vote….suck it up Torys you’re dogtucker come September.
i agree. i suspect their best chance is increasing maori seats and getting over 2.5%
I don’t think the alliance makes a whole lot of sense from a tactically perspective, let alone a principled one.
I think Mana is on for two seats: Hone and Sykes. They’d be pushing to get a third seat on the list, but it would be unlikely.
However, now, surely the third seat would have to be the Internet Party parliamentary leader. Otherwise, the Internet Party runs the risk of not having any representatives in parliament which would be a dangerous road for them since Mana could then ignore them. This means Mana would now need to get +2 on the list to get their third member in. I think this is probably harder than what it would have been without the Alliance.
Meanwhile, for the Internet Party, sure, they get their way into parliament. But now they’re a part of Mana. Which probably turns off a whole lot of those young National voters Bomber keeps going on about. They’re not voting for a party that is connected to Mana. So now they’ve shrunk their potential voter pool. They will only get the non-voters and cannibalise the left.
The more I think about it, the dumber this whole thing is.
And that’s even before we get into Dotcom’s past which may explode in Mana’s face at any moment for the next three years.
[1]
Mana.Dom’s 5% can easily come in as follows:
From Mana+Maori party=2.5%
From Greens=1.5%
From Labour=0.5%
From uncommitted ACT=0.1%
From Ex-Dunne’s disenchanted=1%
From NZF inclined=0.5%
From National disenchanted with asset sales, Spying etc=1%
From new voters=1%
Oops!…That adds to 8.1% ! My bad!
[2] Not ALL National supporters are also necessary supporters of Asset sales, Draconian secret spying shenanigans or are anti fair taxing of rich. Some of them, particularly the young and savvy educated group will be attracted to the Internet party technology policies. May be not many, but I am guessing about 0.5% to 1%
[3] I am expecting that once the all the policies are announced and the electioneering and media exposure accelerates, the popularity of National (=Actually Key) will slowly but steadily diminish as people will begin to see that the left block is stronger and Nigel-No-Friends-National has very low chance of forming the next coalition. I feel that National will lose 1 to2 % points each month and go down from its present 45% to about 37% by Sept, while the Labour vote will rise from the present 33% to also about 37%.
[4] Yes, you are right, a calculated fantasy from my head. Get back to me each month about this to see how wrong or right I have been.
Interesting. The Internet Party is taking 1% from United Dunne.
United Dunne got 0.6% in the last election.
It’s amazing how poor your political analysis is that you nearly doubled the votes to United Dunne and then given them all to the Internet Party. Every last one of them.
I hadn’t yet assumed you are an idiot.
I did not mention United Future at all. I wrote, ‘Dunne’s disenchanted’, meaning that people who once had a particular liking for DUNNE are now disenchanted with him and would now consider voting for some other candidate but may give their party vote to Mana.Com
0.6% rounded gives you 1%.
These are all approximations, you get that?
Only if you’re rounding to whole numbers. Which you aren’t because you have various 0.5% and a 0.1% in your list.
Basic maths.
well, rounding all those gives 10%.
Personally, I reckon 5% for mana.com is a bit optimistic.
KDC gave money to Banks. That’ll take a lot for some folks (like me) to get over.
You forgot to add your rose tinted glasses in making these predictions.
exactly if the mana & possible mana.com alliance offer absolutely no threat then why the attacks & the concern from the right ? id be more worried if there was no attack from the right but look, news articles, tweets from journos, new handles on the standard & the usual right wing hacks all attacking this (possible) aliiance. ‘the suits are shitting themselves’. coz if this alliance was going to be a complete disaster why would the right & msm attack it & be so concerned. also, i dont believe anything about it in the right wing press, yesterday the stuff article was that dot com was met by complete silence, the herald wrote that he had loud applause from the mana members, tova obrien gushes that dot com arrived in a motorcade ‘fit for john key’, then we see the pictures & there was 2 (or maybe 3) cars, ffs! so until i hear something from either annette sykes &/or hone harawira i will just laugh at the rights attempt at spin on this. exciting stuff.
The Right aren’t attacking it except in so far as they want to suck up to Washington by persecuting Dotcom and get some kicks embarrassing th eleft. Most of the criticism I’ve seen has come squarely from the left.
You mean those like you populuxe masquerading in the guise of being form the left, George from the left??? pfft ‘left’ at the station as the train ‘left’ him behind is as far ‘left’ as that one gets….
The only thing I claim is not to be from the right. The rest of your political labels are a crutch for not being able to think for yourself. I don’t buy my ideologies off the peg. Chris Trotter raises some interesting points of the disjuncture between feeling left and leabelling yourself left in NZ
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/04/11/everything-but-why-labour-is-distancing-itself-from-the-greens/
Plus 1 Good comment idlegus
(oops posted in open mike by mistake- sundays 🙂 )
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9936792/Dissent-as-Mana-and-Dotcom-draw-nearer
The spin in that opening line is a fucking disgrace! As if the headline wasn’t bad enough.
Two political parties had a meeting and now the group leaders want to discuss it all with the grass root members… my god what a travesty.
Did you know that sort of behaviour was allowed in a modern democracy?
Imagine wanting to garner informed consent for democratic action, terrible, just terrible.
Hopefully what Sue Bradford and co might realise is the potential of TIP to synergise with the Mana goals of empowerment of the disenfranchised…by working together.
The internet can and does empower some of us with limited resources but the control of it by foreign/corporate power also seeks to undermine its inherently anarchistic and grassroots democratic potential and nature.
What better than having the innovative, anti-establishment ideals (and cash) of KDC and TIP combined with the self determination and liberation values of Mana?
It can be a force of positive change- one of real revolutionary significance, if we can prevent the Tory haters and neo liberal wreckers from their agenda.
Old school battlers like Sue have confronted the neo lib forces of quasi fascism head on in the old protest forms…has it worked?…only partially…
What is needed and this alliance offers is new thinking and approaches to work With and reinforce the strategies of the ‘old left’ … that combined force of anti establishment ‘hybrid vigour’ is what the Torys are so fearful of.
Dotcom is a neoliberal
Because you assert so, it must be true…?
Heard him yesterday supporting the increased taxing of the rich, social justice and getting rid of John ‘Casino Royale’ Keys ?
Dotcom is an definitely entrepreneurial, but a corporate fascist … ala Keys and his sponsors? I don’t think so.
In 2003, Kim Dotcom announced he was investing in a certain company. He bought into it cheaply; it had been on the brink of bankruptcy. Investors flocked to the company. Dotcom was rescuing it. People started investing again.
Kim Dotcom sold out once the shares recovered. He cashed in 1.5m euros.
That’s pretty neoliberal behaviour to me.
That’s just fleecing rich greedy fools – if its true – good on him!
Remember you are buying hook line and sinker the version of events brought to you courtesy of the MSM…if you believe them verbatim, you’re as gullible as those greedy neo lib investors were.
The level of self-delusion and causistry is truly staggering. What exactly do you think neoliberal means?
There is neo liberal theory and then neo liberal practice.
Recent history up to and beyond the GFC demonstrates the differences and the consequences of the practice of this failed, simplistic and amoral ideology.
As with most theories it is in the practice of them that the motives of the people concerned is truely distinguished.
Well for starters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
The version of events is in court documents.
Furthermore, how do you know they were all greedy investors? Some of those might have been trust funds/minor investors who are firmly only middle class and might have had their savings wiped out.
or look at it another way Disraeli, he helped rebuild a failing company, probably saved a few jobs and when he decided it was stable, recouped his investment and moved on.
Any information on the company today? It is noticeable you don’t name the company!
He was convicted of embezzlement. The company wasn’t stable when he sold out. He didn’t save any jobs.
He bought shares of 375,000 euros.
He said he was going to invest 50m euros.
Investors brought shares.
Kim Dotcom never invested.
He sold his shares for 1.5m euros.
The company was Letsbuyit.com.
If that was the company you meant, why didn’t you just say so?
He did a crime, and did (some of) his time and despite some (ongoing) trouble the company does seem to be doing quite well.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1562586/LetsBuyItcom-tops-one-million.html
I still don’t see how any of that proves his “neo-liberal” tendencies you seem so convinced of.
It just looks like good old fashioned greed to me.
You know, greed, the (contemporary) driving force of humankind.
Um, yessss – the general consensus of the left is that neoliberalism is driven by greed. Do you have a point, or are you attempting a causistry of Jesuitical proportions.
“or are you attempting a causistry of Jesuitical proportions” god no 🙂
snigger
I am not holding Dotcom up to be anything at all.
Don’t know the man, can’t judge the man. What I have seen read and heard though suggests a lot more to him than kiwi jonolism will uncover.
Actions of the present always speak more clearly to me than the chinese whispers of a person’s past. I mainly mentioned it because the world is just so conveniently hypocritical at times.
As far as the current legal issues? I am of the opinion there is something else behind the DotCom saga apart from profit/copyright infringement. There are a barrel load of businesses doing the same thing all around the globe and seem to be free of such legal entanglements. IMHO Dotcom obviously failed to play ball with someone, and is now paying the price.
Back to the point this ‘reasoned dialogue’ began on Populuxe1…and which you have determinedly and desperately diverted from-
The obvious and powerful synergy of Mana and TIP combining progressive grassroots socialism and innovative free thinking internet entreprenurialism to take out the tried and failed neo liberal fascist Tory block from power…got you lot worried…John Keys and Co are Dogtucker come September.
Sue Bradford, quoted on RadioNZ National News apparently claims that she walked out of the Mana Party hui last night because she was tired,
Wonder if it was memory loss that stopped Her being able to find her way back again this morning…
Now Sue Bradford says according to radionz that she could not support Mana if they linked up with the Internet Party because they have different points of view, Internet don’t have the right focus.
One thing they do have is a desire to get into Parliament and do some useful stuff for citizens. And that could be a good first focus, and they could agree not to trip each other up. Sue might be able to adjust her focus a bit if she learns to use the new technology and turn the knobs a little to produce a clearer vision and useful results.
I understand Sue’s concerns about the link with the Internet Party undermining the original values and principles of Mana that she originally signed up to. It’s her choice as to whether or not to accept a major change in the set up of the party.
Good on her for sticking to the principles she is into. She’s hardly someone that isn’t willing to work on practicalities to achieve what she sees as important aims.
What Mana is doing with Dotcoms internet is what i occasionally have a rant about here in the Standards pages, building the ‘left’ vote,
If Bradford cannot handle that i suppose she will walk, i doubt tho if she does that it will hjave a marked effect upon the Mana Party membership,(if they were down one when Sue Bradford walked outta last nights hui they are back up on par this afternoon coz i just signed up)…
I think this has been mentioned before – Dotcom seems to get more support from men than women.
Some of us, just don’t get why some folks are excited about linking up with his party. I’m all for growing the left vote – great if the IP helps with that. But I’m skeptical about where it’s leading.
I remain skeptical because Dotcom seems more Liberterianz than left. I do think he will provide some leadership in using the Internet in an election campaign…. but in the long term I’m not sure what he can offer the left on policy and values.
The Internet Party and/or the Mana-IP alliance could have a positive outcome, but then again it may not.
I’m still voting Green.
Karol, for the election, want to put a guess on how much the Internet Party is likely to spend on advertising,(me i will be conservative and say 500 thousand),
Now IF they can link up as Mana–Internet what will all such exposure do for Mana both as TV/radio time and billboards and letterbox drops(if any are planned),
University without student loans seems a good start from the Internet Party,
As we have seen all Alliances have problems, Dunne (who i refer to on the odd occasion as the black hole in space of NZ politics) swallows all His alliances and they disappear without trace, the alliance with the name fell apart pretty quick with the Green Party becoming the eventual winner of that particular contest of ideas so there is always ‘risk’ in marrying groups with disparate ideas together,
Tonight watching TV3’s coverage of both the Mana Party hui and another for the Internet Party held at the ‘mansion’ i got the distinct impression of the McGullycuddy Serious Party on steroids partying on credit like their is no tomorrow meets real politic in the form of Mana,
Be interesting to see what the ‘discussions’ so far have done for the Mana party membership…
It is an unfortunate thing that elections cost a lot of money – not an ideal situation for the left.
Yes, all alliances carry risk. For me, the big problem is that KDC and the Internet party are a big unknown politically – all we know in terms of track record is mainly via Dotcom’s public persona. And I have yet to see any evidence that he is strongly committed to left wing values – especially in terms of practical efforts. Most of KDC’s life energies seem to have been put into enriching himself. Sure, people can and do change. But I want to see signifcant evidence of that change before he or IP gets my support.
There are some good general platforms that have been stated for the IP. However, on the news last night I heard that they are opposed to increasing taxes on incomes of the richest folk – they are for increasing GST on high end luxury assets like flash yachts etc.
I have been also watching the Mana Party to see how well they shape up in practice. I have always had some concerns that it is a pretty male/masculine-dominated outfit. But then the likes of Bradford and Annette Sykes have been a promising part of Mana.
KDC seems very much to me to be pretty conventionally into a dominant form of macho-style masculinity. Then Hone sayiing on One News tonight, that if Sue Bradford doesn’t like the linkage with IP…. tough, she’s not the leader of Mana – that isn’t encouraging re- the basic approach to process.
So… I’ll continue to watch Mana from the sidelines – praise what they do well re-forwarding left wing values and policies – but the Green Party remains where my main support is going.
Money helps but it doesn’t guarantee success. The Conservative Party spent $1.88 last election and got 2.65%, 59,237 votes – so each vote cost $31.
The Internet Party will be a major risk right through to the election. Vikram Kumar claimed the party would separate from Dotcom but he is still dominating everything. His growing number of legal problems might distract him but he has a record of wanting results for his money and being involved heavily in what he does.
The Greens are by far the best organised party on the left and while Mana/Internet will compete for some votes unless the other parties can look as organised and as focused as the Greens they might struggle to impress voters.
The Internet Party are claiming they will lead the way in social media but the Greens are very experienced online already.
A big test will be whether Internet/Mana can attract more voters than they repel.
Are the Greens really still true ‘left wing’? Were they ever?
They seem more and more cautious, institutionalised … co opted and sidelined by the establishment mainstream…they used to be a party of radical individuals who all stood on their own different issues (including Sue B) AND stood together in an inspiring model of democratic progressive functioning…well that was my impression…now what I see is a Green party following a sanitised homogenised and centralised script and only Russell Norman speaking his thoughts unmoderated by others.
Here in Chch the Greens have been all but silent about the corporate govt takeover of peoples land, rights, homes and democracy (virtual takeover of ECAN and Council by Commisars and CERA), and the unholy alliance between Key and foreign capital in the guise of foreign reinsurers and banks and corporates who are the only ones on the national partys priority list…ordinary working and unwaged people left in limbo and damaged homes and where are Labour or the Greens???
Is an entreprenurial ethos necessarily incompatible with Mana and progressive socialism in this the 21st century?
A lot of marginalised people (not all but some) who are sick of being the neo-fuedal subjects to the creeping corporate slavery Jon Kee Lee and co have fostered, can and are now able to use the internet and innovation to be free from the conventional workplace, be creative, and develop their own personal and economic freedom.
Some of that might go a long way towards broadening the appeal of the progressive ‘left’ to be relevant and meaningful now to those who aspire for a chance to live a better life.
Is being financially successful through personal effort and creativity not allowed or frowned upon in the ‘progressive left’?
Perhaps by some of generational, comfortable, middle class status, but those who have been generationally poor might often have a greater appetite for wealth and its perceived security…if given the opportunity…who would deny them the chance and the hope especially if combined with some genuine social responsibility and values?
The Greens have slid a little to the centre. I’ve been watching that. But they still have strong left wing policies – increase state housing, affordable housing for renters and buyers, sustainable economy, improved public services (including transport), full employment and living incomes, education, training, workplace democracy, collective organisation, pro-union, benefits at a level that support basic needs, etc, etc.
I’m more for Metiria Turei than Norman – she does the hard yards on poverty, equity, etc. But the media prefers to focus on the economy (Norman’s area), and generally treat Norman as the “de facto leader”.
People keep trying to characterise the Greens as either “hard left” or “blue green” – a contradiction and neither are right. They are to the left of Labour currently, but they are not very extreme left.
If you look at the Green Party policies, they are pretty solidly social democratic.
Centre left would be a reasonably accurate description.
Given that the Labour party was founded to give political voice, while at the same time bind and curb potential excesses of the union movement, Labour should be to the left of the Greens.
Why aren’t they? (yes, this is a rhetorical question)
Karol, Hone is only echoing what i have basically been saying about Bradford for the past couple of days in this Post,(i am sure that many at the hui would be echoing the same sentiment),
Does anyone believe that Sue didn’t walk out on the Green Party because she lost the leadership contest there,(it looks a lot like Sue has a policy of ‘my way or the highway’ and She sure sticks to that),and, i would say that She just got a good lesson in ‘real’ Maori politics where neither ‘fame’ or ‘position’ are shown any great amount of respect when the real talking is done,
Lolz, i will put my neck on the chopping block here and ask the question(s), why not as far as some macho-style masculinity goes in politics, there are plenty in the ‘real world’ who live in that ‘style'(or lack of it), and there is no shortage of women’s representation across the spectrum left to right in the present political parties,
Back to process, has Sue Bradford got a defined ‘position’ in the Mana Party, that i know of She hasn’t, BUT, as a simple Party member even befor the annual hui She was in the news opposing anything to do with a Mana/Internet alliance, that’s hardly ‘process’ that would be accepted by any political party,
Process again, ‘Process’ was the annual hui (AGM), held on the Marae at Rotorua, that’s where the Party had decided to thrash out the idea of any further involvement with DotCom/Internet so what does Bradford ‘walking’ say to Her ability to adhere to any ‘process’ that she herself is not in control of,
i have been leaning toward the Mana Party in recent months, the longer the Green Party vote seems to be holding up the more likely i have been to move, the difference for me is simply personality, at a Green Party gathering i would feel ill at ease, that i would suggest would be a two way street, at a Mana Party meeting tho i would fit right in being no more or no less unusual than most there,
Lolz, the last point,also based upon my personal preferences is based upon the style of the parties Green/Mana, the Green Party will be running a ‘professional’ campaign for this election, Mana tho,(if there is no alliance), will struggle to raise the capital necessary to mount a strong campaign, i have, not being shy, already emailed Mana with an offer of some help in campaigning which could be pretty wide reaching and using my skill set very cost effective, with a large Snigger on the end of that…
I think Bradford has strong left wing principles, and some strong convictions about how to put them into practice in the long run. I think it is incorrect to paint her disagreements with others as some kind of personal/ego failing. If she was such a big ego, would she have thrown her lot behind hone to stat with? – he has strong mana and leadership qualities.
Hone seemed to be pushing the linkages with the IP right from the getgo, via the media – yes there’s a hui… But there has been some dissension – not just from Bradford, but also others…. including Sykes and Minto right at the beginning too. But Hone doesn’t seem to be that much into accepting opposition to it, as far as I can see.
Sue walked from the Greens because she felt they were moving away from strong left wing policies…. same reason for her opposing KDC/IP from the get-go – matters of principle. Yes, after losing the Green leadership contest, she was in a difficult position.
I have seen her in operation on the ground. She is very much into building relationships at grassroots level as a slow, and steady part of building a movement.
There’s quite a lot of women MPs (not as many as male MPs), and men dominate leadership positions. NZ politics has reverted to being more masculine dominated since Clark lost her PM role.
Of course, you make your choices based on what works for you, and the way you see things – ditto for me. …. and for Bradford, et al. All part of a broad movement, where there are different versions of left wing approaches and views.
I’ve signed up to give a hand to the Greens, and made a donation…. they will definitely be needed in the House, either in government or in the opposition benches. They’ve slowly built themselves into quite a strong party – that takes time.
Quick sign ups may work in the short term, but a movement requires stringer, on-the-ground ties than just some links through some digital apps.
Karol, you make a point about Hone talking about/up the proposed Mana/Internet alliance in the media, this seesm to read akin to an accusation that if it is all right for Hone to be doing such it is all right for Sue Bradford to use her ‘fame’ to get into an only too happy media and oppose the alliance,
You forget the relative positions that the two hold in the Mana Party and i dare say if the same were to occur within any other party the open mouth would have been invited to take a walk,
i too have seen Sue Bradford in action and can honestly say the ‘action’ planned and executed had as its sole intent to get Bradford’s face on the TV preferably while being manhandled by the plods(much to the outright laughter of a number of us),
Interestingly missing from the same self promotion,(but definitely in the area),was one Metiria Turei), and the fact that Bradford has or hasn’t got ‘left wing principles’ in no way absolves Her in my eyes from such use of others in acts of self promotion,
You are of course entitled in to your view of Bradford as some sort of ‘star’ shining the light of left wing principles the fact remains i don’t as i have seen the building of Sue’s little schisms as entirely exclusive of other’s views rather then inclusive and while Bradford Herself doesn’t dish out the abuse of those with differing views than Hers She usually has a very able sharp tongued coterie of those willing to do such for Her with the whole intent of ”Sue is the leader, you agree 100% with her or fuck off”,
It looks like, Lolz, she might have just got blindsided by a far better political operator than what she thought she was…
You do obviously not know Sue Bradford. She could have had all the “fame” and baubles sticking with the Greens, but she chose the harder way to go back to activism. This does not say much about your favoured party, does it?
Pfft says you, read bert’s comment below it expends far more energy making a good point, which i agree with, than i can be bothered to direct your way…
It is interesting and amusing to see new posters, tedious right wing propagandists and hypocritical trolls coming in to show their great ‘support’ for Sue Bradford ! Strange stuff!
Sue Bradford has principles, and what she has said re the Mana and Internet Party (basically Dotcom) alliance has only reinforced my view that she deserves more credit than Hone.
Once the left gives up their principles, then they start digging their own grave! As for Hone, I have supported him on much, but as of recent I question his common sense, his human instincts and rationale. My concern has been for a long time that he considered Mana is HIS party, as his vehicle to bring about change, and that the opening up at the beginning, to the left, was just used to get more traction and foot soldiers promoting HIS party.
Now I am totally disappointed and disillusioned with Hone, he always wanted Mana to be another Maori Party, not a truly wider reaching left party. He is digging his own grave, going with Dotcom, I am 100 percent sure!
Sue Bradford lost her bid for Green Party leadership and spat the baubles dummy there and then.
Wonder if Hone is the smarter one and getting rid of Sue B is a bonus.
If Sue cannot see and explore the potent synergy of having TIP onboard then she is stuck in some mid twentieth century world view. It is now 2014 – and the internet is as much a potential mechanism of liberation and advancement of progressive valves as the union movement was in the industrial age.
The internet is also on the agenda of John Keys and his corporate fascist sponsors, a potentially powerful tool of surveillance, control and oppression.
Spouting out past their use by date industrial age Marxist rhetoric is not going to cover for the lack of logic, reasoning and solidarity in Sue Bs toy tossing.
Alliance with KDC/TIP does carry risks, but so does living in the past and not recognizing the contemporary challenges to our creative, social and economic freedoms and thereby growing the progressive movement to meet those challenges.
Well said! Great post.
I’ve been hearing people talk about the liberating potential of the internet for a couple of decades. Meanwhile, it has been increasingly commercialised. Once people claimed that the printing press was going to be the great democratiser. No technology is the answer in itself. It depends on how it is used.
Smearing Bradford because she has made a different judgement on the issue isn’t a great argument. Deal with her criticisms about how it will impact on the Mana and wider left movement. Ad hominems
hominem’sare a diversion.Founding member of mana dismissed as dummy spitter with Marxist rhetoric by another blinded by dirty money dressed as potent synergy and contemporary challenges to our creative, social and economic freedoms shocker. 🙄
And on a left wing blog. Who saw that coming a month ago?
“Smearing Bradford because she has made a different judgement on the issue isn’t a great argument. Deal with her criticisms about how it will impact on the Mana and wider left movement. Ad hominem’s are a diversion.”
+1
Can someone explain what exactly are Sue Bradfords stated reasoning is for being against the alliance?
All I’ve heard (mainly filtered via MSM) is that she ‘doesn’t approve’ of associating with KDC, his self made millions, and the fact he’s in trouble with the establishment (ala Hollywood directed Corporate Fascism), or words to that effect –
Is it now a crime to be a successful entrepreneur taking on the status quo and have progressive social and self determination values?
Karol if it was not for the printing press we would probably still be living under theocracy and or feudalism with almost all written knowledge controlled by the Church and aristocracy.
The internet, like the printing press, makes more information and sharing available to more people – don’t we want that revolutionary potential maximized, not hijacked, controlled and copywrited by the Corporatocracy?
karol: “But Hone doesn’t seem to be that much into accepting opposition to it, as far as I can see.”
Whether he’s accepting it or not, he is encouraging that it be heard. I have it on impeccable authority that he asked people personally who he knew were against the idea to speak up. One I know chose not to, for what I consider good reasons.
I’m still dead against a formal alliance, but I am beginning to open my mind on some sort of electoral accommodation. I don’t see how my 30+ years as a socialist who has failed to achieve much (or anything) in terms of a movement give me the right to tell Mana what they should do. I do have the right to wish them luck and support them, because I believe they’re the best development in electoral politics and extra-parliamentary activism I’ve yet seen in Aotearoa. I also have the right to hope they don’t make what could be a huge mistake.
My two votes are not yet decided.
The media has misrepresented the interview and the context in which Hone said that he is the leader and not Bradford.
The context was when the interviewer continuously, about 3 times, contradicted Hone when he said the final decision was unanimous from the 7 branches and that Bradford had left the meeting and was not there at the vote. Susan implied that he was lying because Bradford said different. It was at the time that Hone said those words to show that he was making the statement about the unanimous vote as the leader and Bradford was not the leader.
Watch for yourself:
http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/harawira-rejects-criticism-internet-party-negotiations-video-5914821
OK. Thanks, Clem. I only saw One news, not Qu & A – was working today.
Thanks for that clarification Clem – too often Hone is portrayed by the media in the image they like, rather than the man himself. Classic MSM sucker punch to skew the debate and create controversy.
I will vote for where my vote has its most bang for buck in the battle to dislodge Key.
If that happens to be mana/net then so be it.
If it takes a thief to catch a thief then so be it.
If Labour can get a min of 33
Greens 12
and mana-net 3
Then the Nats are History
Get out the vote guys