Groser says govt ministers in denial of reality

145 comments on “Groser says govt ministers in denial of reality ”

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1. muzza 1

   14 November 2013 at 8:16 am

   How is quoting Tim Groser helping to make this articles primary discussion point, credible?

   Tiny Tim is doing he darn best to ensure that this country and what is left of the sovereignty ,is sold into the control of foreign corporate interests, and whatever strategy those globalists intend to operate with, once the TPPA is ratified.

   Using Tim as a crutch for this article, leaves a nasty taste!
   • Matthew Hooton 1.1

     14 November 2013 at 8:44 am

     I think the information on Wikileaks this morning suggests Groser has been doing quite the opposite to what you claim. See https://wikileaks.org/tpp/static/pdf/Wikileaks-secret-TPP-treaty-IP-chapter.pdf
     • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1.1

       14 November 2013 at 8:53 am

       You would have to comb through that document for a while before you could reach that conclusion with any degree of certainty.
       • karol 1.1.1.1

         14 November 2013 at 8:58 am

         Agreed, OAK. I looked at the NZ Herald article on it and thought it very conveniently made it look like the NZ government was standing up for the interest of all NZers.

         I like time to look at it, and more informed analyses of it.
         • Matthew Hooton 1.1.1.1.1

           14 November 2013 at 9:03 am

           Yep, that’s right. NICKY HAGER was “very conveniently” making it look like the government is standing up for the interests of all New Zealanders! The corporate media must have captured him now too!

           http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11156737
           • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1.1.1.1.1

             14 November 2013 at 9:16 am

             Hollow Hooten cites Nicky Hager 😈
           • karol 1.1.1.1.1.2

             14 November 2013 at 9:29 am

             The problem is that Groser and Key continue to say they are working in the interests of NZ and that a solution in favour of NZ sovereignty and people is possible. I am mistrustful of the role they have been playing in the negotiations, until I have time to look more closely at the evidence.

             As Jane Kelsey says, we need to see draft texts of all the chapters to have a clearer view of what is being negotiated. Curiously that Stuff article interprets the Wikileaks documents as showing “road blocks” and “snags” to the TPP: i.e. not insurmountable obstacles.
             • Matthew Hooton …

               14 November 2013 at 9:36 am

               If you are opposed to TPP, you don’t need to worry. It will never happen. A free-trade deal of this nature will never get passed the US Congress, especially with Obama not having fast-track authority – and it is difficult to see how the free-traders like NZ and Singapore would ever finally agree with Japan and Canada. The whole TPP thing has become nothing more than a make-work and air-points scheme for bureaucrats, lobbyists and activists.
               • Tracey …

                 14 November 2013 at 10:13 am

                 activists ought not be included with lobbyists and bureaucrats because the former often has to pay their own way. I agree that it will never get past congress unless the other countries have all just rolled over to all US demands.

                 Wayne Mapp says we cant see the draft because of confidentiality so parties can bargain without their positions being known.

                 However if the US is tapping Merkel’s phone I rather think they know exactly what position EVERY party to the TPPA hold.
               • phillip ure …

                 14 November 2013 at 12:37 pm

                 have to agree with hooten here..it has just been a travel-ticket-bonanza/trough for the assorted players/paper-pushers..

                 ..and it is mired in going-nowhere-land..

                 http://boingboing.net/2013/11/13/wikileaks-publishes-the-inte.html

                 “..The treaty is reportedly at a “negotiated stalemate” thanks to the US Trade Rep, who has refused to bend on treaty provisions that other nations objected to..”

                 ‘negotiated-stalemate’ sounds good to me..

                 phillip ure..
               • Rogue Trooper …

                 14 November 2013 at 2:14 pm

                 you get a diversion
         • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1.1.1.2

           14 November 2013 at 9:05 am

           I suggest translating it into a word doc if possible, then edit out everything but the NZ positions. I’m looking forward to the analyses too.
     • muzza 1.1.2

       14 November 2013 at 8:55 am

       Hooton, you were jogging on the spot with that response weren’t you eh!

       Time will tell the story ot Tiny Tim and his powers of negotiation, albeit the corporate media will have used their powers, not to mentioned their paid tools, such as yourself Matthew, to re-write history, and sell the propaganda to the hobbits, as is the way of this world, however the point remains…

       Using Tim Groser as the central figure for an article to give credence to expose the disgraceful actions of the NAT MP’s, is hypocritical!

       This article could have stood on its own merit, without quoting TPPA sellout, and self promoter on the globalists world tour using taxpayers funds, Tiny Timmy Groser.
       • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1.2.1

         14 November 2013 at 9:02 am

         This could be interesting: who would you back to actually read through the TPPA draft, analyse the NZ position(s) and accurately summarise it all?

         Hollow Hooten, or Muzza the tiresome cretin?

         It’s a fascinating document. Actually it’s a lot of documents, all depending on which country’s views you pick.
         • Rogue Trooper 1.1.2.1.1

           14 November 2013 at 2:15 pm

           I’m for a bob each way.
2. Bill Drees 2

   14 November 2013 at 8:31 am

   Tau Henare, Jamie Lee Ross, Gerry Browlee and Bill English: what have they in common that they choose to deny the impact of humanity on the climate?

   They all believe that the right of the individual to exploit that which they own/control are a superior right to the right of the collective to manage society and the environment for the benefit of all.

   They have the same attitude towards employment, health, schooling issues as they have towards climate change.

   Tau Henare, Jamie Lee Ross, Gerry Browlee and Bill English are that mean boy in the school-yard that upon finding some mis-laid item they like would pocket it and say “finders keeper, losers weepers”
3. Ennui 3

   14 November 2013 at 8:41 am

   I watched the disgusting performance by Tau and others on the news….then reflected as cars drove up the street belching CO2, “what the hell, the habits of a lifetime from all of us is being threatened by the whole concept of climate change”. Reading Cluborlov this week was instructive of the psychology behind the abuse of Russell Norman.

   And the reason collapse is an unacceptable topic of discussion if it relates to us, in the present or the foreseeable future, is that the moment you mention it, the topic stops being it, or us; the topic becomes you. What is wrong with you, why are you collapsing, and is it contagious? (Actually, just go away anyway, because you are probably bad luck.) This society operates on a combination of conformism and one-upmanship. Collapse as reality is nonconformist—in a society that worships success it is seen as defeatist and unpatriotic. It is also noncompetitive—because who on earth would want to buy it? “After all, who wants to hear that their very identity—the industrially civilized ego they have built throughout their entire lives, the ego that defines who they are—is, well, dying?”

   Carolyn Baker on http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.nz/
   • Rogue Trooper 3.1

     14 November 2013 at 2:17 pm

     not that many in the developed world.
4. TightyRighty 4

   14 November 2013 at 8:48 am

   No labour mp’s at all booed the commie Aussie? It was all national?

   The only disgraceful performance was the commie Aussie trying to make political gain from a natural disaster. The Filipino isn’t even a scientist, just a vested interest negotiator. But because his views align with the commie Aussie, he’s temporarily useful. Wonder what the Filipinos views on the tppa are?
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 4.1

     14 November 2013 at 8:57 am

     I love the way Norman makes wingnuts froth at the mouth.
   • Not a PS Staffer 4.2

     14 November 2013 at 9:36 am

     Tighty
     The job of a politician is to be political in order to achieve gains. That is why they are called politicians….
     • framu 4.2.1

       14 November 2013 at 10:13 am

       heh – its like complaining that labour were doing to much social engineering – when thats pretty much the job description for govt
     • TightyRighty 4.2.2

       15 November 2013 at 8:50 am

       just the commie aussie trying to make political gains in parliament on this one. typical aussie white trash, completely inappropriate behaviour for the occasion. Cunliffe and Key kept it dignified, why couldn’t wuss?
   • framu 4.3

     14 November 2013 at 10:01 am

     “the commie Aussie”

     exactly how old are you?

     its pretty damn pathetic for a grown adult to repeatedly use such childish language and think they are being funny, clever or appropriate
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.3.1

       14 November 2013 at 10:06 am

       “its pretty damn pathetic for a grown adult to repeatedly use such childish language and think they are being funny, clever or appropriate”

       Like “wingnut”?
       • framu 4.3.1.1

         14 November 2013 at 10:08 am

         fair enough – we all slip at times i guess – its whether we let it become habit
       • Naturesong 4.3.1.2

         14 November 2013 at 11:42 am

         In which case I believe the correct epithet for Dr Norman is moonbat.
       • Tiger Mountain 4.3.1.3

         14 November 2013 at 2:11 pm

         “Like ‘wingnut’?” I prefer meathead for the likes of KK who give apes a bad rap by association.

         Dr Norman’s remarks were endorsed by Yeb Saño. If that is not good enough for tory deniers then obviously they are beyond help.
         • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.3.1.3.1

           14 November 2013 at 2:16 pm

           Yeb Saño or the IPCC? Who’d have a better idea, ya reckon?
     • fappity 4.3.2

       15 November 2013 at 9:00 am

       what like this you mean ?

       http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10112013/#comment-725131

       http://thestandard.org.nz/fck-the-police/#comment-319095
   • Tracey 4.4

     14 November 2013 at 10:16 am

     “The Philippines is not yet ready to join the international free-trade agreement known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the head of the Trade Department said Wednesday.

     “We can pursue it, but is it wise to lobby for it? Let’s just wait until we’re ready. We’re not going to actively pursue negotiations for us to join. It can be distracting and we have no resources for it,” Trade Secretary Gregory L. Domingo told reporters.” April 2013
     • David Tong 4.4.1

       14 November 2013 at 12:06 pm

       Yeb is from Tacloban, the worst hit city. He has friends and family amongst the missing and dead. His brother spent much of the last few days tending to corpses, as Tacloban digs its first mass grave.
     • David Tong 4.4.2

       14 November 2013 at 12:06 pm

       Yeb is from Tacloban, the worst hit city. He has friends and family amongst the missing and dead. His brother spent much of the last few days tending to corpses, as Tacloban digs its first mass grave.
   • Tracey 4.5

     14 November 2013 at 10:19 am

     The Philippines’ lead climate change negotiator Yeb Saño, who happened to be at the United Nations climate summit in Poland as the typhoon hit…

     So not “the Filipino” but a government appointed climate change negotiator.
     • TightyRighty 4.5.1

       15 November 2013 at 8:52 am

       Is he a scientist?
   • Rogue Trooper 4.6

     14 November 2013 at 2:19 pm

     a bit of bile went into that one TR
5. TightyRighty 5

   14 November 2013 at 9:04 am

   I love the way lefties always divert attention away when their argument gets rogered.
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.1

     14 November 2013 at 9:09 am

     What argument, Tighty? You made a series of spittle-flecked assertions that reveal lots about you and say nothing whatsoever about Russell Norman.
6. King Kong 6

   14 November 2013 at 9:08 am

   Maybe next time the Israeli’s take out a crap load of Palestinians, Russell can stand in Parliament and start quoting M*in K*mpf.

   Bout time he headed home and started trying to sort of the Australian response to climate change. NZ are full bushed, dream catcher owning hippies by comparison.
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 6.1

     14 November 2013 at 9:10 am

     Go wild, guys, let it all out.

     The wingnuts are lining up to out-froth one another 😀
     • King Kong 6.1.1

       14 November 2013 at 9:18 am

       His political grandstanding on the back of thousands of dead Filipinos was crass and vulgar…but what do you expect when you let an Aussie into your house.

       If they could have kept Turei out of the tuck shop long enough I am sure she would have told him that it was in terrible taste.
       • One Anonymous Knucklehead 6.1.1.1

         14 November 2013 at 9:23 am

         The National Party in full rhetorical flight. I shouldn’t encourage public incontinence, but please, do go on.
     • Pascal's bookie 6.1.2

       14 November 2013 at 9:28 am

       Norman touched a nerve all right.
       • King Kong 6.1.2.1

         14 November 2013 at 9:31 am

         It’s funny that you haven’t noticed put people tend to get a bit tetchy when you behave like a gigantic douche bag.
         • Pascal's bookie 6.1.2.1.1

           14 November 2013 at 9:37 am

           Yeah you keep saying that. But I’ve yet to see anyone explain why, exactly, what he said was so outrageous.

           As far as I can tell, ya’ll are upset because he made skeptics feel bad, as they should.
           • King Kong 6.1.2.1.1.1

             14 November 2013 at 9:54 am

             Just days after thousands had died he pretty much said that if they drove a car, bought manufactured good or had lights in their house, they had it coming to them.
             • Pascal's bookie …

               14 November 2013 at 10:06 am

               ‘Pretty much’ I’m guessing means ‘didn’t’.

               Quoted the part where he pretty much said that and prove me wrong.
               • King Kong …

                 14 November 2013 at 10:17 am

                 He asserted that the storm that killed them was definitely and irrefutably caused by climate change. What causes climate change? cars, manufacturing, energy production… ergo if any of these Filipinos were helping cause climate change with their behaviours…they had it coming.
                 • framu …

                   14 November 2013 at 10:19 am

                   “ergo if any of these Filipinos were helping cause climate change with behaviours, they had it coming.”

                   yes but thats you adding that bit on
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 10:35 am

                     It is exactly the point the that Russ implied.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 10:53 am

                     AGW is a collective responsibility. If the Filipinos stopped all of their carbon emissions that wouldn’t stop them from being affected by AGW. This is why people like Norman don’t believe what you just said, that’s your shit in your limited mind. Your logic is ideologically skewed, and environmentally, socially and scientifically daft.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 November 2013 at 10:55 am

                     Yep. But unfortunately we have an economic system which demands maximisation of energy use, consumption and therefore AGW. We’re pretty much stuffed unless we change everything, right down to our systems of accounting and business case methodology.
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:00 am

                     And let me guess CV, you are the once in a millennium genius who knows exactly what it should be replaced with.

                     I guess if Jesus was a carpenter why can’t our economic saviour be a masseuse.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:07 am

                     Plenty of people know what needs to be done KK.

                     What’s less certain is why so many people think that when you find that your boat has sunk you can magic up another boat out of nothing instead of swimming for shore. The stupidity burns, literally.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:22 am

                     KK – sorry mate it has to be a collective effort.

                     You’re going to be hearing that word a lot more going forward, because the cult of the individual is slowly running out of time – as we run out of the oil which powers it.
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:34 am

                     So CV, is that one word of our new economic manifesto each or are we going to appoint a committee of those who know themselves to be fabulously insightful and gifted (your time to shine brother).

                     My experience, such that it is, has always shown that committees are terrific vehicles for delivering top notch, clearly thought out and concise results.
                   • phillip ure …

                     14 November 2013 at 12:45 pm

                     i think kongy deserves/gets todays lycra-ripping-groin-stretcher-of-a-lie-award..

                     ..norman ‘implied’ nothing of the sort..

                     ..norman quoted…he didn’t imply…

                     ..kongy must be squeezingly-angry..eh..?

                     ..to make this shit up..

                     ..phillip ure..
                   • rhinocrates …

                     14 November 2013 at 4:14 pm

                     Wow, this is quite fun. I never thought of ape-baiting as a sport until now, but the thing about reactionaries is, well, that they react – they simply can’t help themselves.

                     I really shouldn’t be amused – I sincerely disapprove of cruelty to animals, but I can’t help but chuckle.

                     Do you get it KK? You’re not an irritant, you’re an amusement.
                   • Martin …

                     15 November 2013 at 9:02 pm

                     We all have it coming too, including you. Most won’t realise iteven when that tornado whacks them round the ears or that floods starts fillinging their sinuses and mouths with water.

                     We all have profited from the drivers of civilization and now we are seeing payback time. ou can vote National or whatever you like. Climate change is locked in and the inertia will drive it until we go extinct and way beyond.
                     Got it?

                     If we wanted to make a difference 30-40 years back was the time to start not now.
                     If that is too disturbing or unpleasant, tough!
                 • Pascal's bookie …

                   14 November 2013 at 11:09 am

                   I asked for a quote KK. You give me your reckonings and feral inferations.

                   He quoted a speech that said these things are examples of what the world is heading for more of, and that we should pay attention to them. he didn’t say they had it coming.

                   That was just you being a giant fucking douche.
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:14 am

                     So because nobody has been aware of climate change it is not the Filipinos fault this time but now that Ginge has made everybody aware of it…then next time its on you.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:18 am

                     If anyone is to blame it’s you KK. The rest of us have been wanting to take action to mitigate AGW for some time now. You, and people that think like you, are the ones causing the problem now.
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:24 am

                     I never realised that you were all so polite.

                     If I was sure that the building was on fire and there were people milling around by the doors who didn’t think so, It is unbelievable to think I would hang around and fry waiting for them to leave.

                     Unless of course I didn’t really think that the building was on fire but just wanted to cause a panic in order to rob the other patrons.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:30 am

                     That’s a word salad.

                     What I want is the quote from Norman’s speech where he said what you claimed he said.

                     But you can’t , because you are just angry that he hurt your feelings when you were feeling good about being pious.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:34 am

                     You really don’t get the global bit of AGW do you.

                     We can’t get out of the burning building unless we do so collectively. So dumb fucks like you who aren’t merely milling round the exits but are actively blocking them are responsible for all our deaths.

                     I know that you are all about the personal responsibility, so tell me this, if you did believe in AGW, where exactly do you think you could go if you made it out of the building under your own steam?
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:42 am

                     That is total leftie bollocks. It’s always the most important thing in the world…but someone else has to take the action.

                     If you clowns actually owned this stuff, people might start to take you more seriously.

                     In answer to the second part of your question…Mad Max style apocalypse.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:47 am

                     But I am doing something KK, many things. As are most of the other people I know who take this seriously. So I’m not asking you to take action and me to do nothing, I’m asking you to take action with the rest of us. You thinking that I just suggested that only you take action is total righty bollocks. Not to mention comprehension fail.

                     Running out of arguments are we? How about answering Pb’s request then?

                     “In answer to the second part of your question…Mad Max style apocalypse.”

                     Ah, so now we have it. You would prefer to live in a world of brutality as long as you’re all right jack. Which I guess explains why you won’t take AGW seriously. You’re having a bet each way.
                   • framu …

                     14 November 2013 at 11:53 am

                     no – whats bollocks is your building analogy and you thinking that your opinion of what someone said is the same thing as what they said

                     would you like a shovel for that big hole of stupid your digging?

                     \note: its not that i disagree with you – its that your not making a lot of sense and completely avoiding where people point that out
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 12:19 pm

                     “and you thinking that your opinion of what someone said is the same thing as what they said”

                     Just like when Key said “we aren’t giving the Pike river families a payout on behalf of the company because it will set a precedent and the potential for inequality in the way Govt treats victims of terrible accidents” and David Cunliffe implies that to mean that Govt couldn’t give a shit about the Pike River victims families?
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 12:32 pm

                     Is that you agreeing that you were wrong?
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 12:37 pm

                     Only if that’s you saying you are in love with me.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 1:10 pm

                     Another logic fail then. Are you going to keep this up all day?
                   • King Kong …

                     14 November 2013 at 1:17 pm

                     No, I have meetings this arvo but I will give it one last try…

                     If you stand up in a period that has been set aside for passing on condolences to the victims of a natural disaster (exactly what all speakers from the other parties did) and you use it to go on a rant about climate change, how is that not blaming the victims for their own demise (for the reasons I stated above)?
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     14 November 2013 at 1:23 pm

                     Because words have meanings that’s why.

                     If you could quote the words he used that imply what you reckon he was saying, it would be a great help.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 1:37 pm

                     Yeah, we’ve been through this already several times KK. You heard blame because of some shit in your head. It’s not what Norman said.
                   • BLiP …

                     14 November 2013 at 1:54 pm

                     ‘

                     Here’s how its really done, and this is what a real speaker looks like . . .

                     http://youtu.be/XDtClJYJBj8
             • Rogue Trooper …

               14 November 2013 at 2:21 pm

               did he really KK
           • infused 6.1.2.1.1.2

             14 November 2013 at 11:00 am

             Then you’re retarded.
             • Pascal's bookie …

               14 November 2013 at 11:10 am

               Wow, another classic argument from infused. You should bookmark it.
           • Redrobin 6.1.2.1.1.3

             14 November 2013 at 9:38 pm

             “As far as I can tell, ya’ll are upset because he made skeptics feel bad, as they should.”

             Thought Police here we come…
         • framu 6.1.2.1.2

           14 November 2013 at 10:06 am

           Then stop behaving like a giant fucking douche bag

           you know – if you dropped the rape minimisation, racism, name calling and general arsehole-ness you put out you might have something worth saying

           your so consistantly offensive on any given subject you really dont have any right to be getting upset here
           • weka 6.1.2.1.2.1

             14 November 2013 at 10:57 am

             Well said framu.
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 6.1.3

       14 November 2013 at 1:28 pm

       The wingnuts are lining up to out-froth one another

       Aren’t they, just:

       http://thestandard.org.nz/groser-says-govt-ministers-in-denial-of-reality/#comment-727924
       • Linz 6.1.3.1

         14 November 2013 at 1:58 pm

         To address climate change I suggest we plant thousands of caucasian wingnuts.
         http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/plants/plant_finder/plant_pages/12811.shtml
         • Rogue Trooper 6.1.3.1.1

           14 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

           “native to Iran”, very interesting. Sanctions would be required by the international western community of grass-fanciers.
   • karol 6.2

     14 November 2013 at 9:16 am

     Russell

     Would this be Russell Crowe? Amazing as to who gets claimed as Kiwis and who isn’t, depending on the perspective of the claimer.

     And the muddled and unintentionally ironic reference to MK, boggles the mind.
     • King Kong 6.2.1

       14 November 2013 at 9:25 am

       So the fact he doesn’t spell his name like every other Russell in the world is the best you’ve got.

       As it goes, I knew he only has one “L” but the spelling auto correct changed it. Even the dictionary thinks it’s twatish.
       • Pascal's bookie 6.2.1.1

         14 November 2013 at 9:30 am

         Considering the best you’ve got is ‘go home to aussie’ and some crap about your german mate, I’d say the Russel thing was pretty much a round one knock out.
       • karol 6.2.1.2

         14 November 2013 at 9:33 am

         No, my point still stands however the names are written. Russel Norman shows way more commitment to the future of NZ than the likes of Russell Crowe.

         The whole labeling of Norman as a “Commie Aussie” is just a diversion and has no relevance to the issue.
7. BLiP 7

   14 November 2013 at 9:45 am

   . . . So, what does Key think? Does he agree with Tim Groser that only someone who is “in denial of reality” denies man-made climate change? Or does he agree with Colin Craig that it’s all the orbits of the planet? Or with Brownlee, English, and Ross, who clearly are deniers but lack the guts to say it . . .

   Its very difficult to know exactly what John Key thinks. He is on record as having said:

   I firmly believe in climate change and always have

   . . . yep, you guessed, its another John Key lie.
8. photonz1 8

   14 November 2013 at 9:46 am

   The International Panel on Climate Change says –

   “In its most recent assessment on global warming the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change found there were no identifiable long term trends when comes to tropical cyclones, hurricanes and typhoons.”

   Russel Norman says Climate Change will mean more tropical storms.

   When it comes to the science, who is the denialist – Russel Norman or the IPCC?
   • Colonial Viper 8.1

     14 November 2013 at 9:50 am

     No links as usual mate? Making stuff up as usual, mate?
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1.1

       14 November 2013 at 11:35 am

       Links, you want:

       IPCC AR5

       http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/uploads/WGIAR5_WGI-12Doc2b_FinalDraft_Chapter02.pdf

       2.6.3

       Current datasets indicate no significant observed trends in global tropical cyclone frequency over the past century and it remains uncertain whether any reported long-term increases in tropical cyclone frequency are robust, after accounting for past changes in observing capabilities.
       • Pascal's bookie 8.1.1.1

         14 November 2013 at 11:42 am

         And discussion here from Phil Plait:

         http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/11/12/update_supertyphoons_and_global_warming.html
         • Pascal's bookie 8.1.1.1.1

           14 November 2013 at 11:43 am

           To be fair, that link might not be of the same quality as ‘some dude writing in the Daily Telegraph’ like the one DPF used, but it’s probably better.
       • weka 8.1.1.2

         14 November 2013 at 11:51 am

         Current datasets indicate no significant observed trends in global tropical cyclone frequency over the past century and it remains uncertain whether any reported long-term increases in tropical cyclone frequency are robust, after accounting for past changes in observing capabilities.

         Haven’t read that in context, but on the face of it aren’t they saying they don’t know?
         • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1.1.2.1

           14 November 2013 at 1:00 pm

           But Russel does.
           • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1.1.2.1.1

             14 November 2013 at 1:18 pm

             I’m never sure how this works. If you don’t agree with the IPCC’s findings you are a denier. Unless you are Russel Norman.
             • Macro …

               14 November 2013 at 4:28 pm

               http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/images/tornado/2012/ann/tornado-counts-0112-2012.png

               now of course this is only the US….

               and we don’t want to cause alarm amongst the populace….

               but that graph would indicate a trend would it not??
               • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                 14 November 2013 at 4:34 pm

                 Fuck, marco. You think maybe the IPCC didn’t know about your graph? Maybe they’re not doing a very good job.
                 • One Anonymous Knucklehead …

                   14 November 2013 at 6:44 pm

                   Gormy picks cherries,
                   Dumps mendacious litany,
                   Jaw is flapping too.
                   • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                     14 November 2013 at 7:15 pm

                     Hey OAK, if you don’t like something in the report, don’t take it up with me. I didn’t write it. Your problem’s with the IPCC.

                     And you know it’s not cherry picking. It’s quoting.
                   • Macro …

                     14 November 2013 at 9:12 pm

                     Yes it is quoting – but then the fact remains that the timeframe for the drafting of the report means that a lot of new results and findings are not included. Since the cut-off for AR5, the literature has moved somewhat towards expecting more tropical cyclones and more intense storms as warming progresses.

                     The IPCC reports are by nature conservative in their content – they have to be to gain the consensus from many people with many barrows to push. That unfortunately does not always lead to the correct answer nor to full extent of the situation. A real expert in Hurricanes Dr Jeff Masters has this to say:

                     “A remarkable warming of the sub-surface Pacific waters east of the Philippines in recent decades, due to a shift in atmospheric circulation patterns and ocean currents that began in the early 1990s, could be responsible for the rapid intensification of Super Typhoon Haiyan. Hurricanes are heat engines, which means they take heat energy out of the ocean, and convert it to kinetic energy in the form of wind. It’s well-known that tropical cyclones need surface water temperatures of at least 26.5°C (80°F) to maintain themselves, and that the warmer the water, and the deeper the warm water is, the stronger the storm can get. Deep warm water is important, since as a tropical cyclone tracks over the ocean, it stirs up cooler water from the depths, potentially reducing the intensity of the storm. When both Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita exploded into Category 5 hurricanes as they crossed over a warm eddy in the Gulf of Mexico with a lot of deep, warm water, the concept of the total heat energy available to fuel a hurricane–the Tropical Cyclone Heat Potential (TCHP)–became one that gained wide recognition. The Pacific Ocean east of the Philippines has the largest area of deep, warm water of anywhere on Earth, and these waters have historically fueled the highest incidence of Category 5 storms of anywhere on the planet. Super Typhoon Haiyan tracked over surface waters that were of near-average warmth, 29.5 – 30.5°C (85 – 87°F.) However, the waters at a depth of 100 meters (328 feet) beneath Haiyan during its rapid intensification phase were a huge 4 – 5°C (7 – 9°F) above average, judging by an analysis of October average ocean temperatures from the Japan Meteorological Agency (Figure 1.) As the typhoon stirred this unusually warm water to the surface, the storm was able to feed off the heat, allowing Haiyan to intensify into one of the strongest tropical cyclones ever observed.”

                     http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2579

                     It is also of note that 90% of global heating is going into the oceans and a large proportion of that is ending up in the deeper oceans
         • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.2.2

           14 November 2013 at 4:02 pm

           Yes, that’s what it means. Logically though, an increase in energy in the ecosphere must result in larger and more damaging storms. It’s just a question of when and how long before the statistics show it.
           • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1.1.2.2.1

             14 November 2013 at 4:10 pm

             Well, maybe until then, Russel and his mates should stop making shit up.
             • Rogue Trooper …

               14 November 2013 at 5:49 pm

               fore-warned is fore-armed.
               • weka …

                 14 November 2013 at 6:32 pm

                 Nah, we should just wait until we’re on fire before we do anything.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   14 November 2013 at 6:36 pm

                   I don’t think that there will be any truly effective solutions implemented in time so we have to hold on for the ride.
                   • weka …

                     14 November 2013 at 6:41 pm

                     Anything we can do will help. I reckon we should keep trying. In this sense KK kind of has a point. Why haven’t we taken to the streets yet?
                   • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                     14 November 2013 at 7:12 pm

                     Maybe reducing greenhouse emissions will stop all the other stuff that global warming has not been proved to be causing while we’re at it. Maybe it’s causing the All Whites to be shit. And One Anonymous Knucklehead to be such a misanthrope.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               14 November 2013 at 7:13 pm

               Did you read the link from PB? The statistics already show such an increase.
       • Rogue Trooper 8.1.1.3

         14 November 2013 at 2:30 pm

         motivated today G.
9. jaymam 9

   14 November 2013 at 10:00 am

   “Colin Craig that it’s all the orbits of the planet” – I think we need to get the actual quote from Craig. I suspect he is quoting the few scientists who theorise that the orbits of the planets affect sunspots.

   This paper in Nature says “The Sun’s magnetic activity varies cyclically over a period of about 11 years. An analysis of a new, temporally extended proxy record of this activity hints at a possible planetary influence on the amplitude of the cycle.”:
   http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v493/n7434/full/493613a.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20130131

   However most scientists don’t believe that. I don’t believe the effect is significant either! But we do know that sunspots affect climate. And the changing orbit of the Earth around the sun has by far the biggest effect on climate, and causes huge temperature swings around every 100,000 years, if you look at the ice core studies.
10. Madame Defarge 10

    14 November 2013 at 11:15 am

    Come the revolution, I’d spare Tim Groser, only because a) he at least recognises the value of teaching Te Reo early in the life of all New Zealanders. If they chose not to pursue that later in life – at high school – then that is their prerogative. And b) he has reasonably been consistent on the source on climate change – humanity.
    The rest of the Tory bastards, I’d flog, then send off to the guillotine!! Absolute charlatans, liars and scoundrels the lot of them. “Off with their heads!!”
11. Pascal's bookie 11

    14 November 2013 at 11:50 am

    Fresh polling from the US

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/13/climate-change-red-state-opinion-america-study?CMP=twt_gu

    “To me, the most striking finding that is new today was that we could not find a single state in the country where climate scepticism was in the majority”
12. weka 12

    14 November 2013 at 3:02 pm

    King Kong,

    “His political grandstanding on the back of thousands of dead Filipinos was crass and vulgar…but what do you expect when you let an Aussie into your house.”

    Some of us couldn’t quite follow KK’s logic this morning, so let’s go to the Philippines’ govt itself –

    Today the Philippines climate change chief, Yeb Sano, was saluting Mr Norman via Twitter, offering his “deepest appreciation for his heart-warming gesture”.

    The gesture – recounting Mr Sano’s speech – was slammed by National MPs because it was made during time set aside to honour typhoon victims.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Norman-vindicated-by-Philippines-govt-tweet/tabid/1607/articleID/321218/Default.aspx
    • Tracey 12.1

      14 November 2013 at 3:06 pm

      Weka, please dont put facts in the way of the Nats, and their supporters, lies and deceit. KKK cannot survive but for the lies/myths he relies upon.
    • King Kong 12.2

      14 November 2013 at 3:38 pm

      Whilst Manny Pacquiao, Filipino welterweight boxing legend has been quoted saying “how dare that ginger dickhead jump to conclusions about the causes of the storm that killed thousands of my fellow countrymen. It was a time for condolence not a time for blame.” Mr Pacquiao concluded his statement with “jumped up Aussie prick”.
      • Tracey 12.2.1

        14 November 2013 at 3:43 pm

        Of course this is just your online personna, offline you are a level headed, fair minded, contributing citizen…

        Anyone want a Tui?
        • King Kong 12.2.1.1

          14 November 2013 at 3:49 pm

          God no. How anyone can drink that muck is beyond me.

          I’ll take a gin if there is one going.
          • fender 12.2.1.1.1

            14 November 2013 at 4:27 pm

            Alcohol and apes… not a good mix…
            • Molly 12.2.1.1.1.1

              15 November 2013 at 9:02 pm

              don’t know … have a soft spot for this group….
              • fender …

                15 November 2013 at 9:18 pm

                🙂

                Way more talented than the ape we got lumbered with.
13. aerobubble 13

    14 November 2013 at 3:53 pm

    I was wondering, when a cat owner moves what do the cats in the area think? That Roger the cat died? Anyway, that reminds me of something Brownlee said today in parliament. When asked about roading investment, he replied that road users had fully funded it, that it would be a tax on car users to spend the investment on public transport. Now sure, if you ignore the facts, that taxation was directly purposed like that, which it is not (as many a pacifist re-military spending). If you ignore the fact that investing in more roads gives more choice to car users as opposed to other tax payers who don’t use cars (or would not if they had a choice) – and so make one culture of road use predominate which is highly inefficient use of roads paid for by all NZ over the decades (and restricts choice of car owners to switch modes). If you ignore the fact that increasing public transport removes cars from roads and so speeds up the network, and so only a dumb cat would argue that having more space to move was a tax.

    But hey Brownlee thought a fellow minister today was deluded when that minister failed to remember who was the NZ PM in 2008. Delusional front bench if you ask me. Its all about making NZ more inefficient, so National can sell off NZ to foreigners cheap.
14. rhinocrates 14

    14 November 2013 at 4:17 pm

    KK’s really having a meltdown today and damnit, I’m out of popcorn!
    • King Kong 14.1

      14 November 2013 at 4:20 pm

      I would tell you to get yourself down to the shop but of course the Police Commissioner has surveillance set up out side your house in order to track your movements.
      • Rogue Trooper 14.1.1

        14 November 2013 at 5:52 pm

        meanwhile you appear in a cage already.
      • fender 14.1.2

        14 November 2013 at 6:05 pm

        Nah those pigs are in the drive-thru queue at McDonalds. Shave some fur from around your eyes, ape shit.
        • fappity 14.1.2.1

          15 November 2013 at 4:04 pm

          Exactly how old are you?

          It’s pretty damn pathetic for a grown adult to repeatedly use such childish language and think they are being funny, clever or appropriate
          • Pascal's bookie 14.1.2.1.1

            15 November 2013 at 4:35 pm

            If you say so, “fappity”
          • fender 14.1.2.1.2

            15 November 2013 at 5:05 pm

            I’m 99, hence the slow reply.

            I don’t normally refer to them as pigs very often (if that’s what you refer to), but after seeing the outrage from the ghastly BM last time it was used I threw it in for his entertainment.

            But if it makes you unhappy fappity, I’m sorry 😳
            • lprent 14.1.2.1.2.1

              15 November 2013 at 11:25 pm

              Cool in all respects.. You just have to hit the ton (and beyond). My grandmother hit 99 and 7 months, but was a bit out of it for a number of years..

              I like the idea of a centurian blogger almost double my age capable of doing more than 1600 argued and often irreverant comments. There is hope for me keeping my brains as long as the arteries hold out.
              • fender …

                15 November 2013 at 11:49 pm

                Now I feel absurd for being so absurd! I’m a little less than half that, but I hope we and TS are still around in another fifty odd! Hope I don’t attract a ban for lying about my age, but I could protest that I meant I’m an agent…., agent 99!
            • Colonial Viper 14.1.2.1.2.2

              15 November 2013 at 11:32 pm

              Actually 99?

              Like 99 years?

              I imagined half that…
              • fender …

                15 November 2013 at 11:54 pm

                And if we met you could win me over if you said I looked a third of that!

                Sorry mate I’m only 45…..going on 18 (mental age!) 😈
          • weka 14.1.2.1.3

            15 November 2013 at 6:36 pm

            ‘Pigs’ is child language?

            I would have tagged it to the hippies. Or the Young Ones.
      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 14.1.3

        14 November 2013 at 6:11 pm

        Cousin Ape, wingnuts have been running that “you’re just paranoid” line since Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple.

        Haven’t you got an original thought to save yourself? Have a banana.
    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 14.2

      14 November 2013 at 6:08 pm

      Loving your access to the higher echelons of the establishment Rhino. Ignore the jealous monkey, he’ll just throw his poop at you.
15. Royton De'Ath 15

    14 November 2013 at 5:31 pm

    Thank Goodness KK and TGF are with us; fighting the fight that needs to be fought – hewing to their tumescent hind-brains, providing the tiny galvanizing squirts of bio-stuff that provide some flickering evidence of sentience.

    That AR5 quote showed ‘em, TGF; those demmed Bolsheviks should be running for cover now. Nothing like good dose of cold, hard quotes being shoved up them, eh?

    What about this for another dose of the AR5 that you so lovingly administer?

    ‘Time series of cyclone indices such as power dissipation, an aggregate compound of tropical cyclone frequency, duration, and intensity that measures total wind energy by tropical cyclones, show upward trends in the North Atlantic and weaker upward trends in the western North Pacific since the late 1970s … , but interpretation of longer-term trends is again constrained by data quality concerns …’

    And this summary should have the desired evacuative effect, emanating as it will from your self-administered enemas:

    ‘Confidence remains low for long-term (centennial) changes in tropical cyclone activity, after accounting for past changes in observing capabilities. However, it is virtually certain that the frequency and intensity of the strongest tropical cyclones in the North Atlantic has increased since the 1970s.’

    Let’s hope (wink, wink) that the bolshies don’t notice the obviously understated, conservative, nature of the conclusions reached by the World Government Boffins. But, you will be sure, we are sure, that the virtual certainty about cyclonic activity in the NA, will have no relevance to anywhere else ‘cos, like, it’s like, “several streets over”, sort of analogy thing.

    And let’s hope that the data issues aren’t sorted out, because then They’ll try to find out things, like, you know … confirm trends of cyclonic intensity and/or frequency in the NP … or something. That rotten super typhoon may just make Them do just that. They’re such rotters.

    And that boxer/congressman/hero is really, really, really helping out:

    ‘His status as a national hero in the Philippines meant Pacquiao considered leaving the training camp to help relief efforts, but Roach said it was too close to the fight to alter preparations.
    “It’s way too close to the fight, he needs to double down,” Roach said, although he granted his fighter much of Wednesday off, giving him the chance to help out remotely.’ (13/11/13)

    Gosh. Now, that’s real dedication …

    Such wonderfully little treasures of rationality and humanity.
    • Rogue Trooper 15.1

      14 November 2013 at 5:54 pm

      what an insightful read
    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 15.2

      14 November 2013 at 6:39 pm

      Classic. A million thanks Royton.
16. xtasy 16

    14 November 2013 at 8:01 pm

    National Party position: “The earth is flat, as we can only see as far as the tip of our noses, and there is no detectable evidence that disproves our position!”

    “Also is the earth the centre of the universe, as God created us out of clay and we must be the centre for that mere fact!” “Hence it MUST be REAL that the sun revolves around earth, rather than the opposite, as the tip of our noses tell us such.”

    “Climate is changeable due to sun spot activity, rotation moves of planets and the imaginations of fallible minds prone to perception of any ideas.”

    “Signed by John Key, and agreed to by Colin Cringe (da Craig)”.
17. Cemetery Jones 17

    15 November 2013 at 8:49 am

    Ok this is so chardonnay of me, but Jami Lee Ross? Never trust a man on a parliamentary salary who still seems to buy his suits and ties at Tommy Gun.
18. captain hook 18

    15 November 2013 at 12:18 pm

    cut to the chase and the climate science denialists (who hoo) are just greedy pigs who imagine that the world was put here for them to eat their lunch on and trash as they see fit.
    The ones in the National party are comming more and more to resemble the nasties in a marvel comic or a dennis wheatley novel who think tha the dark lord is going to reward them for their allegiance but no he will swallow them whole too.
    And all their flash hotels and golf clubs and legions of arse lickers and menial myrmidons will not save them.
19. Lloyd 19

    15 November 2013 at 11:40 pm

    I suppose those persons who disparage Russell Norman because he came from Australia are quite happy for New Zealand citizens to pay taxes in Australia specifically linked to social welfare kiwis can’t receive due to anti-kiwi laws? After all none of us here in New Zealand are migrants or descendants of migrants are we? We all know that migrants should be shunned, banned, ignored and banished to the gulags, don’t we?

    I also assume the climate deniers are frogs sitting in slowly warming water denying its is getting warmer until they get cooked….

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