National’s mating dance with the Conservatives

Written By: - Date published: 10:30 am, June 10th, 2014 - 160 comments
Categories: conservative party, john key, national - Tags: ,

colin craig and john key

There is this strange process occurring in New Zealand politics whereby right wing parties are clearly entering into accommodations and understandings but are denying that negotiations are happening.  The latest example of this involves the Conservatives.

Colin Craig was interviewed on Radio New Zealand this morning.  He and senior ACT politicians have this very frustrating habit of refusing to directly answer questions put to them about potential electoral accommodations.  It is blindingly obvious that deals are being done but in a classic keep the information away from the leaders way so that they can plausibly deny anything is happening.

It seems that not only Craig is in the dark.  Guyon Espiner said that Key had stated that he had not discussed the issue with senior colleagues but clearly National is contemplating a deal with the Conservatives.  Maybe the current state of the National Party is that John Key decides all important issues by himself.

Key has claimed that he is being open by stating that an accommodation is possible with the Conservative Party.  Well he is but he is clearly willing to push current electoral laws to the edge in his pursuit of an advantage.

National’s electoral success is also its weakness. The failure of any other right wing party being even close to becoming viable means that an accommodation of sorts is almost inevitable if National wants to regain power.  There is a strong sense that National is gaming the system.  And to achieve success National will have to sacrifice one of its Members of Parliament.

Colin Craig says that there have been no official discussions between National and the Conservative Party. It seems strange that there should be no understandings this close to the next election given the importance of a deal.

Espiner stated that rumours are rife that a seat on Auckland’s North Shore will be offered to the Conservative Party.  Craig said that his party are not relying on a deal.  Oddly enough he has not decided which seat he will stand in as yet.  Craig confirmed that the Conservatives are polling in three seats, Upper Harbour, Rodney and East Coast Bays.

So who will be the sacrificial lamb?  Will previously proud to be a Westie Paula Bennett’s desire to become a Shore Girl be thwarted?  Will Maggie Barry be put on permanent gardening leave?  Will Mike Sabin Mark Mitchell be perfed out?  Or will Murray McCully’s long career be over?

I hope that it is East Coast Bays that National decides on.  McCully is not called the Dark Prince for nothing.  I do not expect that he will go quietly and a battle over his seat could be fascinating.

But this highlights an issue where well funded puppet parties are being given deals by National in an attempt to game the system.  National clearly is willing to risk undermining support for MMP so that it can hold onto power.  I trust that the good people of the North Shore can see through this charade and refuse to go along with an arrangement that will see extreme conservative values represented in Parliament.

160 comments on “National’s mating dance with the Conservatives ”

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  1. aerobubble 1
    10 June 2014 at 10:48 am

    Collins knew where her husband worked.
    Collins knew what her husbands company interests are.
    Collins knew who was at the special dinner.
    Collins knew the cultural differences.
    Banks, disagrees, he did not knowingly do anything wrong.
    Yet Banks still fell on his sword.
    Yet Williamson still fell on his sword even though he thought he was innocent.
    So does Collins know she did something wrong, is that why she’s is still there?
    Colin Craig is the least of Key’s worries, unless of course, an empty Collins seat…
    …or Craig runs in Epsom.
    But wait, what about the ACT party.
    See More of ACT?
    And the academic whose politic nouse is clearly lacking.
    Who does that, what politician, argues idealism from the point of supremacy of argument metric used in the lofty ivory tower.
    Politics is about the art of the possible, persuading, and you don’t get people off side by dictating how most people are wrong, that neo-liberal myths that are holding them back and their economy, are the only correct way of thinking. That all you need is $20 flick your way and your a believer too.

    • Jim 1.1
      10 June 2014 at 11:22 am

      Yes Williamson fell on his sword, will live to fight another day, and his issues are already starting to feel like a distant memory. Banks got pushed onto his sword, will not live to fight another day, smoko’s for workers are now safe and the ACT party is compromised to the extent that it may not be electable in Epson. Collins has not fallen on her sword, and there’s more to come, its the never ending story that keeps on giving. Mean while Teflon Shonky and his team are starting to get the faint smell of corruption. As the saying goes oppositions don’t win elections, governments lose them.

  2. Richard Christie 2
    10 June 2014 at 11:06 am

    Yet Banks still fell on his sword.

    only after he was dragged kicking and screaming toward it and forced to to fall.

  3. Te Reo Putake 3
    10 June 2014 at 11:18 am

    I heard Craig on Morning Report and his language seemed quite odd to me. I didn’t get the impression that a deal of any kind, official or unofficial, had been done, but he did seem certain that he would soon be getting the call from National. If this a dance of the desperate, then Craig seemed to me to be a wallflower, shyly waving across the dance floor in the hope that someone would wave back.

    • ianmac 3.1
      10 June 2014 at 12:43 pm

      Come on Te Reo Putake. Mr Craig has a direct line to his god. And his god spake to him and said, “You are my anointed one Colin Craig my son. You may choose whichsoever place that suits your godly purpose. Oft spoken by you and you will receive from the orders issued by me and so it will come to pass. Go from the wilderness and you have the blessing of my godly self and that other close contender for my job, Reverend John Key.”
      So you see. That’s how Mr Craig knows that which no one else knows. Got it?

    • Craig Y 3.2
      11 June 2014 at 9:20 am

      The Cons are talking crossbenching. They are far from unambiguously fiscally conservative. Dunne hates their guts and their anti-Treaty stance would make it difficult if not impossible for the Maori Party to work alongside them. Remember 1996 and the Nat/ACT/Christian Coalition ? The Nats partner with the Cons at their peril. They risk a social liberal backlash if they take this step.

  4. Tautoko Viper 4
    10 June 2014 at 11:20 am

    Mark Mitchell is Nat MP for Rodney. Colin Craig contested Rodney in 2011.

    [Right you are. Now corrected – MS]

  5. Ron 5
    10 June 2014 at 11:28 am

    Isn’t McCully going to Washington?

  6. swordfish 6
    10 June 2014 at 11:33 am

    Yeah, quite a bit of spin recently from various Tory shills (including Matthew Hooton ?) along the lines that the National leadership had grown tired of Colin Craig’s antics and had pretty much decided against an accommodation. Absolutely KNEW they were talking utter bollocks.

    • Tracey 6.1
      10 June 2014 at 2:48 pm

      hooton said yesterday that he thought that act, dunne and conservatives would all win a seat

      • yeshe 6.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 3:02 pm

        Key denied yesterday any accommodation in Southland with the new ACT nominee Don Nicolson who is some big honcho in Federated Farmers down there .. considering the backlash that seems to have arisen against the tobacco lobby Nat candidate, and the fact that Key has denied it .. what does this mean ? Is this their ACT back up plan ? I think it is. Is Epsom not safe anymore ? I am so suspicious of all this … even wondering to myself if it was an early stitch up with the almost-juvenile tobacco Nat candidate just in case Banks was ousted … oh my, I have become so cynical !

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11270697

        • Tracey 6.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 3:16 pm

          bill englishs bro just left federated farmers, wonder where he will turn up next.

    • Matthew Whitehead 6.2
      10 June 2014 at 9:02 pm

      They were counting on an innocent verdict for Banks, for sure.

      This will get really interesting as I expect that the conservatives would be far more of a confidence hit for a potential National government than Internet-Mana would be for a potential Labour government. Best political move right now for National would be to commit to agressively running to win wherever the Conservatives focus their electoral prospects- but I don’t see that happening. National knows they’ve eaten their allies and pending a 49%+ result at the actual election they’re not getting back into government without the Conservatives.

  7. dimebag russell 7
    10 June 2014 at 11:51 am

    John Key is rapidly becoming the George Bush of New Zealand politics. i.e. a rich nitwit. He doesn’t care how much damage he does to the nation and the spirit of the nation when he lets complete wonks like Colin Craig into parliament. The whole country seems to be off its head at the moment where any doolally with money can buy what they like off the National Party.

    • Gosman 7.1
      10 June 2014 at 12:14 pm

      Why is this worse than KDC trying to buy his way in to Parliament via his arrangement with Mana?

      • ghostwhowalksnz 7.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 1:22 pm

        Apart from KDC and Colin Craig setting up self funded political parties with millions of dollars, there is nothing the same
        KDC is not a candidate. Craig is really really wanting to be in parliament

        Mana all ready has an electorate seat, it doesnt have to do any back room deals to get one.

        All the ‘best’ seats for Colin Craig have safe national MPs sitting in them, it requires a bit of game of thrones for one of them to make way.

        The end result, if Colin Craig gets into parliament is for the National party , as before, have a small group of Mps , push it over the 50% mark in parliament
        National currently has these micro parties with 5% of the vote in parliament but only 2.5% of the party vote.

        Mana KDC is only likely to have the number of Mps its vote allows.

        • Gosman 7.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 4:13 pm

          Lol! I’m pretty sure the reason KDC isn’t standing might be related to the fact he isn’t allowed to rather than any higher motive.

          • Lanthanide 7.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 7:52 pm

            I’m not so sure. Even if he was eligible, he might have the sense that a lot of NZers don’t trust him. Picking Laila as leader of the party was an inspired moved.

          • David H 7.1.1.1.2
            11 June 2014 at 9:53 am

            The reason KDC isn’t standing is because he isn’t a NZ citizen so he is not allowed.

      • dimebag russell 7.1.2
        10 June 2014 at 4:02 pm

        because dotcom is toast and just a sideshow whilst keys like banks purports to have ethics and morals which clearly he doesn’t.

  8. marty mars 8
    10 June 2014 at 11:56 am

    I love the headline – mating dance indeed, very evocative, very apt.

    • mickysavage 8.1
      10 June 2014 at 8:57 pm

      Thanks Marty. I was trying to think of something which would not get me sued but would insult the parties involved.

  9. greywarbler 9
    10 June 2014 at 11:57 am

    Labour got done on toast by I think Espiner as to whether it would consider assisting a minor party when it doesn’t approve of the practice. The fact that it is lawful now and that National have done it successfully was completely by-passed in the shrill questioning of David Cunliffe I think. That was about a week ago. I don’t have link.

    I was not impressed by this searching questioning by Radionz automated interviewer Spiny on an invalid premise. But as I said on another thread this a.m. Will Labour help Mana and its likely partner the Greens now? Or is it still stiff-necked po-faced ‘Ooh we can’t do anything till we get a clear picture of what the voters want’?

    What is needed actually is to give voters something to get their teeth into, like a nice pie, with a smooth fusion of left-wing parties and a fresh taste.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      10 June 2014 at 12:16 pm

      National gets an easier ride on deals with smaller parties possibly because Key is right up front about being the deal maker and being into making deals.

      Labour on the other hand has all its airs and graces on about letting the voters decide and so no deals will be made to help it win power, even though everyone else realises its no longer FPP any more.

      • veutoviper 9.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 12:26 pm

        Cunliffe this morning on Morning Report again reiterated his stance that there would be no pre-election accommodations, let the voters decide, Labour will be going all out in the Maori seats etc etc

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2599040/labour-discusses-potential-election-deals

        There were loud noises that sounded like rude shouts in my household….

        • ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 1:30 pm

          What deals are you talking about ?

          The Greens, Mana have their own electoral methods which are sucessful.

          Fact : Mana has a stranglehold on its electoral seat so doesnt need an accomodation

          Fact: The Greens are allmost certain to get over 5% so dont need any ‘help’ in wining the seats.

          You are talking nonsense about what Labour could do to increase the number of Mps of support parties .

          In guessing that Flavell, who is a good chance to win his seat will go with labour rather than National, as the previous National deal didnt help the MP

          • Tracey 9.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 2:52 pm

            .is a 1000-1200 majority in Te Tai Tokerau a stranglehold?

            • Lanthanide 9.1.1.1.1.1
              10 June 2014 at 8:07 pm

              It’s a pity the MP refused to enter into talks with Mana about dividing up the Maori seats between them and locking Labour out.

            • mickysavage 9.1.1.1.1.2
              10 June 2014 at 9:01 pm

              We (Labour) threw everything against Hone in the by election and he survived.

              Doorknocking that electorate gave me a fascinating insight into the politics. Every one knew Hone and Kelvin, many were related to one if not both of them, they all appreciated the argument “vote Hone get Hone and Kelvin”.

              • lprent …
                10 June 2014 at 10:35 pm

                That is why I think it will be a hard ask to get Kelvin (and much as I respect him) into that electorate while Hone wants to be there.

            • Matthew Whitehead 9.1.1.1.1.3
              10 June 2014 at 9:09 pm

              It’s a pretty solid majority, but I wouldn’t call it a stranglehold.

              I don’t see how Labour running to win in Te Tai Tokerau is in any way a bad thing for the Left. Internet-Mana gets to run a strong campaign there, re-affirm themselves to voters and connect with the electorate, and Labour doesn’t have any of the bad press about standing aside for Hone that National will get about John Banks and any accommodation with the Conservatives. The only way this can backfire is if Hone doesn’t run a good campaign… which I just don’t see happening.

          • bad12 9.1.1.1.2
            10 June 2014 at 7:56 pm

            Flavell, only a 46% chance of holding Waiariki will ‘go’ with whoever is the Government, should Flavell’s vote be the one to decide who that Government is my opinion is that He will ‘go’ to whomever will toss Him the biggest bone,

            My opinion formed of Flavell is that while left in inclination, the Maori Party voting pattern in the House says so, he like ‘the Hairdo’ Dunne is completely at ease with the ability to trade between beliefs held and personal positions gained…

            • Lanthanide 9.1.1.1.2.1
              10 June 2014 at 8:08 pm

              If the MP truly were kingmakers and they went with National, they’d be gone at the next election. So I really doubt that’s a likely outcome, were they truly in the kingmaker position.

              • bad12 …
                10 June 2014 at 8:41 pm

                Pre-supposing that Flavell can retain Waiariki and my opinion says the only way he can is if Labour fight hard there He may just prove to be more like ‘the Hairdo Dunne’, someone the rumor mill says He gets on fine with, than first thought,

                With both a leaders and cabinet Ministers salary and push, Flavell could spread the sugar in a broader swathe around the electorate whether he gets that sugar from left or right,

                As far as the Maori party being ‘gone’, a few months ago i would have agreed with you whole-heartedly, the candidates in the Tamaki-Makaurau seat now tho would be suggestive, if Marama Davidson were to campaign for the electorate as well as party vote of a three-way split,(i even think Marama has a chance of winnng it),

                Should Sharples, who still has some shreds of Mana left from in the electorate despite the best efforts of some, swallow the dead rat He holds in His mouth in the form of his dislike of Flavell and campaign one last time on behalf of the Maori Party candidate for Tamaki-Makaurau my view would be that He has as much chance of winning it as Marama and the Labour candidate,

                We can thank the Party dithering surrounding the events at TV1 for the odds on nature of the contest in Tamaki Makaurau…

                • RedBaronCV …
                  10 June 2014 at 9:11 pm

                  Isn’t the trick with the maori seats trying to create the overhang that favours the left. So candidate vote Mana and party vote labour/ greens. Or candidate vote labour and party vote Mana/ Greens. Just got to watch the double counting so there isn’t half mana seat winners and half Labour winners.
                  And FWIW I don’t see Te Ururoa winning. The Maori seats voted 95% against selling state assets so they are sick of the right.

              • the pigman …
                10 June 2014 at 10:43 pm

                “If the MP truly were kingmakers and they went with National, they’d be gone at the next election. So I really doubt that’s a likely outcome, were they truly in the kingmaker position.

                That’s what we’ve said every election since 2005, unfortunately reality has been slow to catch up…

      • greywarbler 9.1.2
        10 June 2014 at 9:01 pm

        CV
        I hadn’t thought of that angle. Possibly more amazement from the jono and a desire to drop a plumb line down to the bottom of the well to see what level the game-plan was at or indeed if there was anything there.

    • marty mars 9.2
      10 June 2014 at 12:26 pm

      “What is needed actually is to give voters something to get their teeth into, like a nice pie, with a smooth fusion of left-wing parties and a fresh taste.”

      Plus 1 – I agree with that and a bit of crust is good too to contrast that nice fresh taste.

      • Colonial Viper 9.2.1
        10 June 2014 at 8:12 pm

        Making sure the gravy is thick, delicious and with a surprising bit of both zing and zang!

      • greywarbler 9.2.2
        11 June 2014 at 2:02 pm

        marty m and CV
        Mmmm, crustiness with true firmness and crispness in the crust, so that it holds the ingredients in and enables them to add their various flavours to the degustation.

        Are we policy wonks or have we been watching too much celebrity chef stuff? Or true gourmets of the discerning type.

  10. Puckish Rogue 10
    10 June 2014 at 12:23 pm

    🙂 you guys must really be worried 🙂

  11. Kiwiri 11
    10 June 2014 at 12:26 pm

    This is classic John Key’s double talk, double standards and double deceit.

    Make a dirty deal in the backroom while throwing accusations at others, and at the same time arrange to pull up the ‘coat-tails’ (a variation of pulling up the ladder).

    • ianmac 11.1
      10 June 2014 at 12:49 pm

      Mr McCulley could just stand on the List as has Bill English.
      In the English case they put in a mumpty candidate in his place and we wondered why. Once the ACT man ex Fed Farmer Pres gets nominated and we see the wisdom(??) of the English List positioning. Cunning buggers. Unscrupulous too.

      • Wayne 11.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 1:01 pm

        I am pretty sure the Nats will be fighting hard to hold Clutha Southland. After all, about 24 years ago the Nats selected a smart young guy with virtually no experience for the seat. I think his name was Bill English.

        • McFlock 11.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 1:16 pm

          Well, apparently my Yorkshire ex-coalmining grandad once proudly said he’d vote for a monkey for sheffield MP if labour put one up as a candidate. Although this was possibly around the time of Thatcher, so probably fair enough.

          I suppose the tobacco lobbyist is the tory equivalent, testing the supporters’ commitment to destruction.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 11.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 1:33 pm

            As well the gumboot standing for National is Bill Englishs gumboot.

            The real reason for this arrangement is to give English faction another vote in caucus

        • Tracey 11.1.1.2
          10 June 2014 at 2:55 pm

          Oh yes, i remember the career bureaucrat with no real world experience…rose through the ranks to lead the nats to 20% in 2002

          • Lanthanide 11.1.1.2.1
            10 June 2014 at 8:10 pm

            …rose through the ranks to drag the nats down to their lowest election result ever.

            FIFY.

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2.1.1
              10 June 2014 at 8:14 pm

              Well it wasn’t all English’s fault – there were significant internal factions within National who knew that they weren’t going to win anyway and as a consolation were determined to see him fucked as Leader.

              • Lanthanide …
                10 June 2014 at 9:38 pm

                So how is that not English’s fault? If his caucus stabbed him in the back, it was him they were stabbing…

                • Colonial Viper …
                  10 June 2014 at 10:33 pm

                  Well he had a role to play, yes, but he’s only one guy in one faction and his crowd got done that year.

        • northshoreguynz 11.1.1.3
          10 June 2014 at 3:31 pm

          And look at the debt he leaves behind! Not to mention his stellar performance as leader.

      • yeshe 11.1.2
        10 June 2014 at 3:09 pm

        So I am not the only one thinking this, thx Ian. I just posted above at 6.1.1. … it has been a stitch up hasn’t it ?

        • ghostwhowalksnz 11.1.2.1
          10 June 2014 at 3:16 pm

          Not really, hes likely to be way up the ACT list so hopes to get in that way.

          Doubt as ACT organisation on the ground is very strong down south, they have no money to spend in TWO electorates. Epsom will do nicely

        • ianmac 11.1.2.2
          10 June 2014 at 4:36 pm

          Apologies yeshe. I had read your bit back at 6.1.1 and I guess it took root in my subconscious! But knowing the machavellian (sp) machinations of the Nats we should have a cynical/skeptical regard for any move they make. The cheek to condemn the actions of IMP while quietly plotting in the deep south and readying a McCulley jump onto the List.

      • David H 11.1.3
        11 June 2014 at 10:19 am

        So which true blue electorate is going to be told to swallow a dead rat and become the second Sheeple electorate?

  12. Populuxe1 12
    10 June 2014 at 1:08 pm

    This seems a wee bit too much like reading the tea leaves when in fact no party has said anything concrete about coalition plans and almost certainly won’t until after the election. Obvious machinations? I think not.

    • McFlock 12.1
      10 June 2014 at 1:30 pm

      Reading tea leaves can accurately tell one whether someone has had a cup of tea 🙂

      For no discussions to have taken place, but for both parties to weasel on about it, one of four requirements must be absent:

      1. recognition of a need for coalition partner to provide breathing space in the event of support in the 45%-50% bracket
      2. the ability to plan ahead
      3. a willingness to pervert the democratic process and mislead the electorate
      4. both parties are similar enough in principle that their differences to not outweigh their desire of the other party to be in government

      I think 3 and 4 are clearly evident in at least National, 3 in craigslist.

      Fun opportunity to test ordererd lists, too 🙂

      • Populuxe1 12.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 3:20 pm

        Nah. I’m really not convinced that the centre-right National Party supporters have a strong enough stomach for the smell of Colin Craig’s socks.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 3:24 pm

          Yeah, there seems to be an interesting friction going on there between economic vs social conservatism in the nats. But they were happy to use the vote of Banks. He’s not exactly socially liberal (except when it comes to electoral fraud).

          • Lanthanide 12.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 8:17 pm

            “He’s not exactly socially liberal (except when it comes to electoral fraud).”

            Don’t forget:
            * Courting ACT on Campus, the numpties who truly are socially liberal. They were ACT’s last bastion of volunteerism.
            * Voting exactly the opposite to the stance he took on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, to again appease the ACT on Campus numpties

        • framu 12.1.1.2
          10 June 2014 at 4:47 pm

          true – doesnt mean that key wont mind a good sniff though – and by the sounds of it he already has had a good whiff

          my prediction if key ‘gives’ CC a seat, it will spell the death of national for many years if they form the next govt

          CCP will implode in spectacular fashion if they get in govt and shrapnel causes big wounds

      • Tracey 12.1.2
        10 June 2014 at 3:58 pm

        lets not forget national might need winston…

    • yeshe 12.2
      10 June 2014 at 3:11 pm

      and I have a bag of flour for you ‘lux that says otherwise ….

  13. phillip ure 13
    10 June 2014 at 2:15 pm

    headline:..p.m bats eyelashes at e.t-impersonator..

  14. mikesh 14
    10 June 2014 at 4:11 pm

    I’m not sure that it matters too much how support the Conservatives and ACT receive, since that support will come mainly from National. Similarly, Green and IMP support will come mainly from Labour. The problem for both blocks is to avoid the wastage of votes that would occur if one of the minor parties doesn’t make it into parliament.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1
      10 June 2014 at 5:04 pm

      For the Left, the real wastage of votes is the non-vote

      edit – and will someone make sure that Harawira and Sykes get a clear path ahead in their electrorates please.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 5:36 pm

        I don’t think IMP will be served any better by being beholden to Labour than Labour by [the mainstream narrative of] their association with IMP.

        The electorate has to make that decision. Labour and IMP are stronger that way. I know you don’t agree.

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 5:46 pm

          The Left used to play hard, smart and tactical. I think that’s what Left voters want to see as well – their side determined to win by using every fair and legal means available. There’s no honour or strength in spending a 3rd term on the Opposition benches.

          • Wayne 14.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 7:43 pm

            Actually there is merit in spending a third term in opposition. You get to work out what you have to do in a way you don’t in the second term in opposition. I know, I’ve been there.

            And Labour did so in 1996 to 1999, and were all the stronger for it when they got into govt.

            • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1.1.1
              10 June 2014 at 8:15 pm

              Hmmm you’re mildly irritating when you make these kinds of reasoned points, Wayne.

              • geoff …
                11 June 2014 at 10:30 pm

                Let’s continue that reasoning shall we….

                How much stronger could the left be after 4 terms in opposition or even 5! Imagine the strength! Let’s do it!

                • Colonial Viper …
                  11 June 2014 at 10:50 pm

                  Well let’s be more specific – this is not about the “Left” it is about Labour re-discovering its historical purpose once more. And however long it takes to do that…

                  • geoff …
                    11 June 2014 at 11:03 pm

                    Maybe it’s you that’s the optimist CV. You may argue that there is no middle class in NZ but I would argue there are plenty who think they are. I think people are good relativists and poor absolutists when it comes to placing themselves in a social hierarchies.
                    I am not convinced that a further left stance by labour would bring them victory.
                    I could be wrong but that’s how I see it at the moment.

            • Lanthanide 14.1.1.1.1.2
              10 June 2014 at 8:19 pm

              To bad if the country get’s fucked in the meantime, eh? Or you have to spend your first couple of terms picking up the pieces?

              • Tracey …
                11 June 2014 at 8:34 am

                exactly. Wayne is outlining the advantages of losing to a team, not the country.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2
      10 June 2014 at 5:40 pm

      Mikesh, the Greens are generally acknowledged as a threat to National’s vote as well as Labour’s. What’s your argument to the contrary?

    • fisiani 14.3
      10 June 2014 at 5:42 pm

      National being a Centre-Right party has most of its caucus and supporters and voters centre rather than right. There are no Far Right caucus members. The Far Right are few are far between in New Zealand which is essentially a Centre-Left country. There is no equivalent of the Tea Party in NZ and hardly anyone who would be a Republican. The Conservatives could probably garner support from 3-4% of the Right which are currently wasted. These people would not vote for National so they would add to National’s tally. On the Left however it is a mortal combat for every vote. Mata Harre will take knowledge of the Greens polling strategy and use it against them. The Cunliffe will be led by Matt McCarten to become even more attractive to the loony Left. The further Left he goes the more the loons support him.
      I originally thought it would be close in September 51-49% but am now veering to a decisive 60-40% poll in 103 days time. I am picking National to a) exceed 50% thus gaining say 61 MP’s and to form a coalition with UF 1 ACT 2 Maori 2 and Con 4 thus 69 seats and a comfortable majority for THREE MORE YEARS.

      • bad12 14.3.1
        10 June 2014 at 7:46 pm

        Fis, you should write fantasy for one or other of the soft porn outlets, you certainly have a talent for it…

      • dimebag russell 14.3.2
        10 June 2014 at 8:09 pm

        what have you been taking fishyanus?
        are you just making this stuff up, do you have a crystal ball are you just in the first stages of bi-polar mania!

        • fisiani 14.3.2.1
          10 June 2014 at 8:24 pm

          You cannot handle the truth!!!!
          It’s not what you want to hear but it is the truth. I blame Grant Robertson as always. Cui bono?

          • bad12 14.3.2.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 8:56 pm

            Still being a pathetic little Liar fis, trying to spread mischief with your accusation that Grant is wrecking Labours election campaign,

            Simply gutless lies from a complete and utter arsehole without the guts to put up a shred of proof or argument,

            Grant has been a good soldier since the leadership question was settled by ballot, enjoying Himself in the House by taking out any frustrations He may have felt about not winning on the likes of Colin’s and last week Bridges who genuinely has Grant nearly unable to stand to ask the supplementary questions as like me every time Bridges opens His mouth the urge to laugh uproariously is pretty much uncontrollable…

            • lprent 14.3.2.1.1.1
              10 June 2014 at 10:36 pm

              I haven’t heard a whisper of Grant being anything except doing his jobs. I’d usually hear something.

              • bad12 …
                10 June 2014 at 11:58 pm

                Yeah true lprent, i think Grant has done a good job for the Party, specially recently with the job He did on Collin’s,

                Admittedly he seemed to take a while to warm to the task and i suppose for the ambitious there has to be a period where they come to terms with a loss,(i have that sort of trouble when the girls treat my ham-fisted Romeo attempts with the derision they deserve),

                i watched Him in the House the other week,(befor the Banks conviction) when he asked Bridges whether he thought he was going to pass any more labour legislation in the current Parliament and while Grant was only giggling at the reply i really thought He was going to burst into the same gut busting laughter that i couldn’t help displaying,

                I’ve only met Him the once, in a situation where He could only be Himself and got a laugh out of Him, the regulars at ‘the restaurant at the edge of the universe’,(the Soup kitchen in Tory Street), tell me He is OK and if they judge a ‘suit’ to be ok that’s enough of a recommendation for me…-

                • Colonial Viper …
                  11 June 2014 at 12:06 am

                  Ahhh that place. I lived near there years back when I was a young’un and had no idea what “Tory” meant from a political sense; I had forgotten about the spot. A soup kitchen in Tory St – how fucking fitting.

                  i suppose for the ambitious there has to be a period where they come to terms with a loss,(i have that sort of trouble when the girls treat my ham-fisted Romeo attempts with the derision they deserve),

                  As I wise lad once said to me – “ten no’s and one yes equals yes”

                  • bad12 …
                    11 June 2014 at 11:05 am

                    i would split ‘hairs’ here with you CV and tell you where the previous ‘restaurant at the edge of the universe’ was located, that not being Tory Street, but, i have better things to do today than debate for extensive periods such niceties…

                    (History tells us that Tory Street was named after one of the settler ships, which may have been bestowed with the name Tory with no connotations as we attach to the word in the modern vernacular, Whig from recollection being the opposite of the day)…

      • DS 14.3.3
        11 June 2014 at 1:49 am

        I think fisiani is typing that one-handed, if you get my meaning.

      • Bearded Git 14.3.4
        11 June 2014 at 9:16 am

        fis-Lab 31/32 Greens 11/12 IMP 7/5=49=Cunliffe

      • David H 14.3.5
        11 June 2014 at 10:24 am

        Where’s the ‘fiction’ or more like ‘sarc’ tag Fizzy?

  15. rhinocrates 15
    10 June 2014 at 6:13 pm

    I’m just waiting to see Rat Boy Gower’s disgust and moral outrage at this deal-making.

  16. Sacha 16
    10 June 2014 at 8:11 pm

    Which Nat would put up the weakest fight to keep their electorate?
    Craig for Rodney it is.

  17. millsy 17
    10 June 2014 at 8:14 pm

    I think we should all be shitting ourselves at the thought of the Conservative Party anywhere near the levers of power.

    Colin Craig and his cronies have not had the same level of scrutiny that other parties have had in the past few months/years.

    People complain about Labour wanting to take us back to the 1970’s (highest standard of living in the western world!), but the Conservatives want to take us back to the 1870’s.

    • Colonial Viper 17.1
      10 June 2014 at 8:17 pm

      If it were the 1890’s it might not be so bad…a few big time property owners could do with a bit of land confiscation by the Crown.

    • chris73 17.2
      10 June 2014 at 8:48 pm

      Don’t worry about it, National will win and Craig will get something but it won’t be anything that will have a negative impact on NZ because John Key won’t let something like Craig mess up his legacy

      • felix 17.2.1
        10 June 2014 at 8:57 pm

        Yeah there’s no way Key would ever let corrupt idiots near his govt. 🙄

        • chris73 17.2.1.1
          10 June 2014 at 9:00 pm

          Oh he’d do that, he just wouldn’t let them any where near real power

          • felix 17.2.1.1.1
            10 June 2014 at 9:04 pm

            Eh? I thought you were talking about his legacy.

          • Matthew Whitehead 17.2.1.1.2
            10 June 2014 at 9:13 pm

            Even letting them into the coalition would mess up his legacy. Maybe he could make a polite fiction from it by consigning the conservatives to the cross-benches, but the whole nation would know he made a safe MP stand aside for a bunch of bigots (not even “ex-bigots”, actual current bigots) to get into parliament. It would completely tarnish his image, even with his slippery tendencies.

            • chris73 17.2.1.1.2.1
              10 June 2014 at 9:40 pm

              Well its the lesser of two evils really, Conservatives in with no power is better than letting the Greens anywhere near the financial levers

              • Pascal's bookie …
                10 June 2014 at 9:52 pm

                Craig has been clear that his bottom line is binding referenda for social issues. So Key’s legacy will be hitting kids, repealing marriage equality, scrapping the Treaty etc etc. But it won’t start till he’s leaving.

                • chris73 …
                  10 June 2014 at 10:34 pm

                  What do you think Craig will do if it comes down a choice between National having the power and Labour and the Greens having the power?

                • fisiani …
                  11 June 2014 at 9:16 am

                  Colin Craig and the Conservatives know that they cannot veto National and whilst they have some strange policies that is all they will remain, just policies. The Conservatives will not vote with Labour. To vote with National they have to be in parliament. they will get there by winning >5% of the vote and getting 6 or more MP’s or winning a seat and getting 1,2,3,4 or 5 MP’s. John Key can do arithmetic. The magic number is 61. If he needs the Conservatives to reach 61 then he will reach an accommodation with the Conservatives. That is how MMP works.

                  • Pascal's bookie …
                    11 June 2014 at 10:22 am

                    Good grief.

                    If Key says no to Craig, he can go onto the cross benches and gain a veto on every piece of legislation.

                    You know how Key won last time, and most popular ever, and highest vote under MMP and blah blah?

                    And how he just had to abandon his employment law reform?

                    That 61 is for every vote, not just C&S. That’s what a coalition deal gets you, the right to more than just C&S.

              • Colonial Viper …
                10 June 2014 at 10:11 pm

                The Greens shouldn’t have backed down on their idea for the sovereign issue of money; it would have reduced our reliance on expensive bank debt/bank credit issue of money into the general economy.

              • felix …
                10 June 2014 at 10:19 pm

                “Well its the lesser of two evils really”

                Gosh, that legacy is sounding more and more impressive. 🙄

              • framu …
                11 June 2014 at 8:06 am

                totally ignoring that CCP is a weird grab bag of personalities and policy ideas that is utterly untested vs the third largest party that has many years in parliament under its belt and is widely recognised as having some of the most detailed policy and most professional behaviour in the house chirs

                so yeah – totally accurate and fair comparison your making

      • Bearded Git 17.2.2
        11 June 2014 at 9:22 am

        Key is already campaigning on gutting the RMA and tough new pro-business anti working class labour laws both of which he has been unable to force through in this parliament.

        These two things alone should give the electorate pause for thought.

  18. bad12 18
    10 June 2014 at 8:17 pm

    For now we can thank perhaps the deity, something eaten for His dinner, or, a passed on genetic code for the fact that Colon appears to be to all extents and purposes a functional idiot,

    Why Colon has not had the poster printers running hot from having the perfect election platform gift handed to Him by Jan Logie is beyond me and unless another logical reason is forthcoming i will have to believe that the answer to that little poser lies above in the previous paragraph,

    Perhaps Colon in His lust for power has burned all of His christian bridges while previously under fire and now finds the moral high ground is akin to the bone of a chicken stuck within His craw after an indiscrete bout of gluttony,

    At some point in the next 4 weeks Slippery the Prime Minister HAS to spin the wheel and GAMBLE, do some quite considerable damage within the Party and Party ranks and tell one or other of the Silver Spoon brigade to take a bow and a safe List position and attempt to ‘give’ Colon a seat,???

    ‘Give’ Colon a seat and risk the wrath of Winston Peters driving Him into the arms of David Cunliffe, (yeah sorry about that one, there appears to have been far too much spice in my dinner),???

    Don’t give Colon a seat and risk the left wing and the ‘tactical voters’ hardening a belief that Winston is set to support National after September,???

    The choices are all in front of Slippery, they are all bad ones, no wonder He is currently sounding like a man on some high doses of sedative, how do the risk averse begin to be able to choose the least bad choice…

    • Colonial Viper 18.1
      10 June 2014 at 10:39 pm

      The choices are all in front of Slippery, they are all bad ones, no wonder He is currently sounding like a man on some high doses of sedative, how do the risk averse begin to be able to choose the least bad choice…

      You should re-calibrate your analysis on the starting basis that John Key is certainly not risk averse. He will gamble and he will gamble to win. In this election, as usual, it is Labour who are the risk averse crowd.

      • bad12 18.1.1
        10 June 2014 at 11:38 pm

        CV, all gamblers believe they are going to win, they would not do so if they had a belief that they wouldn’t, its why i don’t, i can play internet poker and win over a hundred grand, but, only because the bets i was making were for pretend money,

        If Slippery were a gambler in the political realm i fail to see where he has placed any ”bet”, Epsom i would suggest was NOT a gamble, there was no way He could have lost there when even had Banks failed to be elected He would have still formed a National Government,

        If you see any of Slippery’s former life as that of a gambler i do not think you are thinking too deeply at all, He was paid millions of dollars to buy and sell currencies as He was ordered to by those higher up the pecking order and was a, highly paid i must admit, small cog in the grand wheel of the great banking fraud, it sure as hell weren’t His coin that He was trading,

        The only people who take risks are the ‘little people’, the Slippery’s of the world just insert themselves or are inserted in a position where they can take maximum advantage of the risks the ‘little people’ take…

        • Tracey 18.1.1.1
          11 June 2014 at 8:39 am

          agree. Take a peek at acts party vote in epsom last election if you need proof of no risk gambling

        • Naturesong 18.1.1.2
          11 June 2014 at 9:28 am

          Successful gamblers are past masters at managing risk.

          It’s this skill that has been John Key’s most visable attribute during both his private and public sector careers.

          And lying. I’ve never seen anyone as good as he is; brazen, unashamed, and able to switch effortlessly to another lie, or even the truth when the first lie is uncovered.
          If he wasn’t so destructive to the social and economic fabric of New Zealand, I’d enjoy watching him.

  19. Tanz 19
    11 June 2014 at 12:05 am

    They do not hold extreme views at all. Just family based, democratic (as in referendums) and decent, traditional views. Conservative views, at the end of the day. Not extreme. The Greens are far more extreme in their views.

    Three cheers for open democracy. Go Craig.

    • Colonial Viper 19.1
      11 June 2014 at 12:08 am

      Its the chem trails and moon lander stuff which is extreme

    • framu 19.2
      11 June 2014 at 8:11 am

      well extreme is in the eye of the beholder i guess – but youve noticed how they have no central or core policy direction and all weve heard so far are poorly researched and thought out policy that doesnt mesh with an overall plan?

    • Bearded Git 19.3
      11 June 2014 at 9:26 am

      Tanz. Are you saying that binding pro-child beating referendums are not extreme?

    • millsy 19.4
      11 June 2014 at 10:51 pm

      Just out of interest Tanz, what is your position on the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 and the place of evolution in our school curriculum.

  20. Tanz 20
    11 June 2014 at 12:22 am

    But that has nothing to do with policy making. And chem trails are real. Plenty of evidence for that.

    • Colonial Viper 20.1
      11 June 2014 at 12:34 am

      Is the Old Testament relevant to policy making?

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1
        11 June 2014 at 12:58 am

        By that I mean particularly the Ten Commandments, God’s instructions to and prophecies for mankind, and the world of the view as a literal fight between the Christian forces of Good and the Satanic forces of Evil.

      • Kiwiri 20.1.2
        11 June 2014 at 11:17 pm

        How about ………

        “At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.”

        Deuteronomy 15:1

    • bad12 20.2
      11 June 2014 at 10:40 am

      Interesting Tanz, i think where you err is in the definite statement being remiss with ”Chem Trails”,

      To explain, having on two occassions witnessed these ”Chem Trails” over Wellington, both times from a pair of very high flying planes i can attest to the fact that what appeared as the ”exhaust trail” of these planes differed markedly from other such exhaust trails i have witnessed over the years,

      Normal ”exhaust trails” i have witnessed at high altitude simply appear to retain their altitude at the point of emission and from there slowly spread eventually breaking up into invisibility as far as the human eye can see,

      However, what are termed ”chem trails” behave in an entirely different fashion, from an altitude that to the naked eye looks as high as the previously mentioned ”exhaust trails” these ”chem trails” remain more or less intact as they fall at what seems considerable speed from their previous high altitude,

      The ones i witnessed over Wellington Airport fell through some very low lying cloud at speed at which point not wishing to find out physically if they were in fact what their name suggested i took myself off inside,

      (Later from under a triple layer cloak of tin-foil i did consider for a brief moment whether such could have been the delivery system for H1N1),

      To label these exhaust plumes as ”chem trails” tho there would have had to be a definite capture of part of such and a following testing of the chemical nature of that which were captured which definitively described this capture as something other than the exhaust of jet fuel…

  21. redfred 21
    11 June 2014 at 7:50 am

    I can’t see the average National voter in the fringe burbs voting for the nutter Craig. Epsom and Act I think is a different thing there is an ideological underpinning of self interest in that matching.

    Does East Coast Bays (etc) want to be known as the Religious Conservative Mans never been on the moon electorate? I can understand why the embrace has been less than fulsome from National; the Key nod could be ignored because the voters just find Craig to repugnant.

  22. Matthew Hooton 22
    11 June 2014 at 8:44 am

    Believes that virgin birth, resurrection etc actually happened

    • Naturesong 22.1
      11 June 2014 at 9:05 am

      Old testament:
      Death penalty for all those who:
      Strike their parents
      Curse their parents
      Blasphemy
      … the list of minor infractions which require the death penalty is extensive.

      or New Testament:
      Care for the poor Matthew 25:31-46: “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me”
      Unadulterated Communism Acts II: “the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need… No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had…. There were no needy persons among them. From time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.”

      Jesus being an unrepentant socialist, radical and believer in social justice does put him at odds with the likes of Colin Craig, and in fact most people who cloak themselves in christianity for political purposes.

      I’d vote for Jesus – but that Craig fella, who is diametrically opposed to pretty much the entire body of his teachings; no thanks

    • Tracey 22.2
      11 June 2014 at 9:15 am

      Thanks matthew. I kibd of thought those were pre requisites for being christian. So its a devotion to the words of the bible and rites…

      I guess i am struggling with the difference between fundamentalist and devout.

  23. dimebag russell 23
    11 June 2014 at 9:23 am

    craig is not a christian. it is just a camouflage for his old testament jewish proclivities. i.e. he wants to be Moses.

  24. Graham 24
    11 June 2014 at 6:46 pm

    The chutzpah of any on the left to slag off national over Epsom or any other deal
    Have you forgot about the Im party already
    I have seen more balanced people standing on the embankment at Lancaster park

    • Colonial Viper 24.1
      11 June 2014 at 6:54 pm

      Graham…I agree with you.

      The Left parties should be presenting voters with a united front this election, and that means bringing to the table the best each have to offer as a team. It’s how it is done in Europe. Voters still get to choose who they want to hold the influence, and they can knock back any parties they view as unsuitable.

      Have you forgot about the Im party already
      I have seen more balanced people standing on the embankment at Lancaster park

      But have you seen more unbalanced people in the dock on electoral fraud charges? Or more unbalanced people who are moon landing spotters?

  25. Graham 25
    11 June 2014 at 10:18 pm

    I have no problem with mps in the dock
    Re banks he was silly and lazy if you or I filled a ird form wrong or a welfare form incorrect ( I am part of the 1% so no welfare form for me) the book could be thrown at us
    I would suggest that n inquiry into lack of prosections as called by mr little wouldn’t be wise as I understand (I could be wrong) that their were 35 complaints of electoral fraud/misconduct etc at the last general election 30 were about green or labour canadates
    But looking forward all mps of all party’s and their staff will have to make sure they follow the law which is a good thing
    Maybe this year the greens will stop doing their silly vandalism and just campaign on there ideas
    Also you guys miss the point about Colin Craig
    Just as the abcs would rather lose than do a deal with hone
    John key would rather move to New York and work for Helen than do a deal with Craig
    Long term the Conservative party needs to destroy nz first that’s where their support base is
    Unless they do that by themselves they won’t have any credibility

  26. NzJackson 26
    13 June 2014 at 6:44 am

    john banks

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