Open mike 03/11/2023

63 comments on “Open mike 03/11/2023 ”

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1. kejo 1

   3 November 2023 at 7:50 am

   Had a flash of the new "business" way of government.

   This afternoon Lxn realises he has to phone Winnie.

   " All lines are busy at the moment. Your business is important to us. Current wait times are 2 hours 45 minutes. Please hold the line." (Continuous racing commentary plays).

   Anyone want to take it from there/
   • Mac1 1.1

     3 November 2023 at 8:57 am

     Maybe Winston could be playing this song from Aftermath, the 1966 album by the Rolling Stones.

     "I Am Waiting"

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMNEozyzpZI
     • Mike the Lefty 1.1.1

       3 November 2023 at 9:29 am

       Maybe Abba's "Ring Ring"?

       "Ring, ring, why don't give me a call……."
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2

     3 November 2023 at 11:12 am

     Boots?

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
2. Barfly 2

   3 November 2023 at 8:27 am

   "So you are sending Brownlee to the Pacific Islands Forum leaders meeting without consulting me?"
3. Sanctuary 3

   3 November 2023 at 8:30 am

   And so today we get the final results of the election, 20 days after the closing of the polls.

   Unpopular take but the critics of the delay – and the overall competence of the way the election was conducted – have a point. The MSM political journalists seem to largely to be having a childish junkie's tantrum over being denied their fix, so as per usual they can't see the issue for their egos.

   But there were big issues that need answers from the electoral commission. The use of technology – in particular the reliance on an app that crashed – didn't scale particularly well, leading to delays – often long ones – as the election volunteers were insufficient in numbers and training to fill the gap. Why it was decided to adopt an app based approach at all (solution looking for a problem?) needs to be answered, especially when you consider the also online technology led fiasco that was the census.

   The running out of ballot papers in some South Auckland electorates is a basic competency scandal that, had it occurred in Herne Bay and Remuera, you'd have heard trumpeted on the front page of the Herald for weeks.

   The confusion over closing advanced voting places on election day – which common sense should have told the electoral commission people would have noticed leading up to polling day and filed away as a voting location – was an act of almost bovine stupidity.

   But the biggest concern has to be the delay over announcing the final result. Three weeks is an unacceptable delay in the transfer of power. People might think it inconsequential, but we've seen in the USA what happens when you dawdle over an immediate transfer of power. There is a reason the second old QEII breathed her last Charlie became King. What would stop an errant Trumpist right wing government deciding via a flurry of orders in council to abolish ministries, mass fire employees and stop civil service pay in the three weeks it takes to form a government now? Convention is well and good but as the USA demonstrates, it is actually a constraint on anyone. We have to come up with a quicker way of getting the final result.
   • AB 3.1

     3 November 2023 at 8:49 am

     We need to be a bit careful what we wish for. Luxon may well use the 3-week wait this time as an excuse for changing the rules and not allowing voters to enroll on the day. That would surely save some time. The right is always keen to shrink the franchise to people with stable, predictable lives.
     • Sanctuary 3.1.1

       3 November 2023 at 8:50 am

       They hate same day enrolment, they won't need an excuse to axe it if they want.
       • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1

         3 November 2023 at 9:21 am

         I think you are wrong in this case Sanc. By complaining about the 3 week delay you are helping Luxon and Seymour to stop same day enrolment, which is an important plus for democracy in NZ.

         The 3 week delay has little effect. We have a caretaker PM/government that consults with the PM elect. Government goes on in this period.

         Meanwhile Luxon has said that he has had meaningful (but secret) talks with ACT and NZF in these 3 weeks that will have already sorted out most of what will happen after we receive the final result at 2pm today.

         What's the problem?

         Having said that, if some of the accuracy checks, where they are extremely unlikely to affect the final result, could be done later, they might be able to get the results out more quickly.
         • Belladonna 3.1.1.1.1

           3 November 2023 at 10:05 am

           Mostly the delay isn't over counting the specials, but rather over all of the checks and balances which we (as a robust democracy) need to have in place to ensure that the election results are valid.

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501459/final-vote-delay-criticisms-not-fair-but-daily-updates-could-work-edgeler

           But there is no good reason why daily updates couldn't be released – giving some guidance to those in marginal seats.

           Having said that – I'd be predicting that any seat with a less than 50-100 majority is going to have a re-count challenge. So even the 'final' result may not be final.
     • Grey Area 3.1.2

       3 November 2023 at 9:11 am

       Rimmer was suggesting exactly that this morning on RNZ I think but Golriz Ghahraman was quoted in response saying something like people should be given as many opportunities to vote as possible.
   • Ad 3.2

     3 November 2023 at 9:07 am

     Agree. Do they really have to re-could the whole thing?
     • Sanctuary 3.2.1

       3 November 2023 at 9:10 am

       I think it plays to a wider and ultimately I think very damaging criticism of the last Labour government – lack of delivery despite copious funding and the frustrations that grew from that.

       Richard Harman notes today in Politik:

       “…The number of pure Public Servants has increased by 7255 from the number employed when National left office in 2017.That is an increase of 35.64 per cent to bring the total in the capital to 27,612. Over the same period, public sector education and health workers in Wellington have increased by only 16 per cent. They very slightly outnumber the bureaucrats with a total of 29,000. The Public Service Commission yesterday also released public service salary data, which showed the average public service pay was $97,200, which suggests that the Wellington increase since 2017 has added $705 million to the government’s annual wage bill…”

       Continue reading at https://www.politik.co.nz/public-servant-numbers-jump/ | Politik

       Now, nobody minds a big jump in bureaucrats if they deliver results. But the sinking feeling is the electoral commission went with an app because it created work for a project manager who they quite like and would rather not let go, for the Wellington based IT industry who need fat government contracts to survive, and it meant they could justify increasing head count in the IT delivery team. Ditto for the census. In other words, it isn’t hard to imagine a lot of the increased spending was just to create a giant middle class make work scheme designed mainly to enrich a mildly incompetent Wellington government feedback loop.
       • Ad 3.2.1.1

         3 November 2023 at 9:25 am

         There's sure plenty of those kinds of dead or dying expensive i.t. projects across a whole bunch of Departments. Just wait for the health one to metastasize.

         I find it hard to believe National+Act can make massive financial cuts without bringing consultants in to assist. Will make for a fascinating 100 Day Plan, since Labour forgot to do one in 2017.

         Wellington is going to be a bloodbath of thousands of woke carcasses. They can occupy parliament grounds and see if the opposition will come out to rally them.
         • Rolling-on-Gravel 3.2.1.1.1

           3 November 2023 at 2:47 pm

           "Woke carcasses"?

           That's just disgusting language tbh.

           Stop demonising people in public service, these are usually people who are trying to keep government going smoothly and we don't know who or which jobs or organisations will be axed under the incoming government that will affect the functioning of the country or not.

           I don't like the disdain and dismissiveness of that language.

           Public service is an important aspect of governance and the idea of the language that they're all airy-fairy angers me because a lot of them are behind the scenes trying their best and they are usually part of many a health/disability community advocacy push.

           We need many people who are willing to work for the best of New Zealand/Aotearoa and we cannot afford to play silly buggers with what may happen in the future.

           Smh. Sometimes I just hate reading this blog.
           • newsense 3.2.1.1.1.1

             4 November 2023 at 2:44 am

             Ad is the best and asking Ad, the brightest the Labour Party has to offer…

             I don’t actually know if he’s (sorry I’m actually not sure on Ad’s gender or if the posters under the handle are many) a Labour voter and supporter. Or if he’s the only one left.

             Seeing he’s an author he rarely seems to get censured for his extravagant style. It’s Cullen-lite. Large attempts at wit, but much less knowing everything despite all that!

             Not in the best vein this morning, old chap. Too much partying with your other undead rogernome buddies for Halloween…
   • mikesh 3.3

     3 November 2023 at 9:08 am

     We have to come up with a quicker way of getting the final result.

     That's the problem with this world. It's rush, rush, rush; everything has got to be done 'yesterday'. Everybody's too bloody impatient.
     • Incognito 3.3.1

       3 November 2023 at 9:18 am

       Agreed! Checking and accuracy come second to expediency – the vibe matters more than the fact.
     • Ad 3.3.2

       3 November 2023 at 9:39 am

       Yes let's bring back candlewick snuffers tripping through the rooms at midnight, paper bus tickets on trolley buses, nightcart soil pullers, handwritten receipts from the smiling butcher, looped cursive cheque writing, A0 newspapers stretched across the breakfast table as Dad puffs his pipe, wringer washing machines for Mum to stay busy, milkmen whistling the milk of human kindness to your door, dial phones attached to your wall, and of course a basement of bright yellow preserved peaches.
       • Sanctuary 3.3.2.1

         3 November 2023 at 9:55 am

         Sounds like Timaru, the place where the inhabitants are flattered when they come to Auckland and discover MOTAT has an entire exhibit dedicated to their town.
       • Belladonna 3.3.2.2

         3 November 2023 at 9:56 am

         I'm gonna agree with the last one. Home bottled peaches…..Yummmmm
         • newsense 3.3.2.2.1

           4 November 2023 at 2:45 am

           Need the climate to grow the trees and have those that are there already not to die off…
       • Adrian 3.3.2.3

         3 November 2023 at 10:54 am

         At least all that shit worked and did the job it was supposed to.
     • Hunter Thompson II 3.3.3

       3 November 2023 at 2:52 pm

       Correct.

       Some things, such as counting votes in a general election, must always be done properly. There is no other way unless you want to live in a corrupt nation.
   • Peter 3.4

     3 November 2023 at 9:39 am

     "We've seen in the USA what happens when you dawdle over an immediate transfer of power?"

     Do you mean we've seen what happens in the USA when you expect the traditional (over a couple of hundred years) transfer of power when the loser in the election is a narcissistic megalomaniac with a cult following roused to be violent?
     • Sanctuary 3.4.1

       3 November 2023 at 10:00 am

       The 1984 constitutional crisis occurred over four days when a narcissistic megalomaniac with a cult following refused to devalue the NZ dollar. Imagine if that had been dragged on for almost three weeks, it would have wrecked the economy.
       • mikesh 3.4.1.1

         4 November 2023 at 10:35 am

         it would have wrecked the economy.

         How do you know? There are some who said that, but it may have just been propaganda. Douglas, in one of his books, said that he favoured devaluation, but that may just have given rise to a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. There were no doubt people in the economy who figured to make money from a devaluation.
   • tsmithfield 3.5

     3 November 2023 at 9:48 am

     I agree with you with respect to the delay. If 1,000,000 plus votes cast on election day can be counted that day, then why on earth should we have to wait three weeks for approx half that amount?
     • Grey Area 3.5.1

       3 November 2023 at 11:30 am

       As I tried to point out to you mid last month processing special votes is a more complicated and time-consuming process than counting the votes of people who cast an ordinary vote on the day. For ordinary votes there is a preliminary count on the night and they are re-counted later for the official result.

       Each person who makes a special vote has to make a special vote declaration to the returning officer in the electorate they believe they are entitled to vote in. The declaration is checked and witnessed by the issuing officer in the voting place who issues them a ballot paper which goes into an envelope with two pockets along with the declaration and is returned to the home electorate. If someone is enrolling and voting their enrolment form is processed separately post voting day. There are seven options as to why someone is making a special vote.

       From what I understand (as we just did the declaration checking and witnessing and ballot issuing) the specials are returned to the home electorate where each one has be be checked to confirm it is a valid special vote. I think this is what takes the time. The counting is the easy bit at the end.

       Of course one way to speed it up would be to employ more people to do the job but that would obviously cost more which would probably stick in the throat of small government proponents.
     • Craig H 3.5.2

       3 November 2023 at 5:02 pm

       There are a lot more people available to be hired for one Saturday (the public service encourages public servants to do it) plus some people for advance voting, than people for 2-3 weeks.
   • SPC 3.6

     3 November 2023 at 9:52 am

     The running out of ballot papers in some South Auckland electorates is a basic competency scandal that, had it occurred in Herne Bay and Remuera, you'd have heard trumpeted on the front page of the Herald for weeks.

     Thus it is fortunate in a way that National got a mandate to form a government, but will be still be denied a NACT majority – otherwise this would be a much bigger issue.
   • Incognito 3.7

     3 November 2023 at 12:43 pm

     I enjoyed the break after the pre-election madness. The relatively quiet time of this 3-week interregnum allowed for some much-needed reflection and introspection without the usual cacophony from the bread & circuses from and through MSM & SM. It felt like the calm after and before the next shitstorm. To some people the result and sub-sequent wait may have felt like an anti-climax but to me it felt cathartic.
4. Ad 4

   3 November 2023 at 9:04 am

   Sorry to see Redline folding. Sometimes it's good to be annoyed.

   BTW could sure do with more writers here people.
   • Sanctuary 4.1

     3 November 2023 at 9:15 am

     They seem to have got sucked into the culture war thing over trans rights and having brought into that narrative they eventually exploded.
5. Ad 5

   3 November 2023 at 9:18 am

   If anyone wonders why Egypt and Saudia Arabia or frankly any arab country isn't offering to take in Palestinian refugees, here's a few of their excuses set out here:

   https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d
   • AB 5.1

     3 November 2023 at 1:59 pm

     Their primary reason for not accepting Palestinians will be because of the economic and political effects in their own countries. But the reasons they give here are not silly – knowing that fleeing to neighbouring countries is an option would simply embolden the Israeli government to complete the eviction process started in 1948. And as the Israeli government doesn't care, they will try to push and push until the international pressure on the Arab states makes them cave in.
6. Mike the Lefty 6

   3 November 2023 at 9:32 am

   The last "new song" we will ever hear from The Beatles called "Now and Then" has been officially released.

   Warning – if you are a Beatles nut like me you may get tears in your eyes.
   • weka 6.1

     3 November 2023 at 10:02 am

     😎
   • Peter 6.2

     3 November 2023 at 11:52 am

     Just last week I found a new version of an oldie which had me reflecting on the variety of their songs.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YJZkTh53KU
     • pat 6.2.1

       3 November 2023 at 2:41 pm

       great find.
     • Descendant Of Smith 6.2.2

       3 November 2023 at 4:59 pm

       The live Cavern Club album recorded by someone in the audience and found years later has some great unexpected covers. Some Ray Charles in there….

       It's low-fi and the quality isn't great but does give some insight into that early part of their career. I quite like putting it on now and then.

       I Saw Her Standing There
       Roll Over Beethoven
       Hippy Hippy Shake
       Sweet Little Sixteen
       Lend Me Your Comb
       Your Feet's Too Big
       Twist And Shout
       Mr. Moonlight
       A Taste Of Honey
       Besame Mucho
       Reminiscing
       Kansas City
       Ain't Nothing Shakin' Like The Leaves On A Tree
       To Know Her Is To Love Her
       Little Queenie
       Falling In Love Again
       Ask Me Why
       Be-Bop-A-Lula
       Halleluja, I Love Her So
       Red Sails In The Sunset
       Everybody's Trying To Be My Baby
       Matchbox
       Talkin' 'Bout You
       Shimmy Shake
       Long Tall Sally
       Remember You
   • Descendant Of Smith 6.3

     3 November 2023 at 4:19 pm

     I had tears in my eyes all right.

     Felt and sounded like a funeral dirge with lyrics as silly as Fat Mattress's Petrol Pump Assistant.

     Can see why it was never finished. They should have left it alone.

     Though it could go well as a lament for the Labour Party to it's voting base who only now and then seem to need its poor and working class.

     Now (Now) and then (And then)
     I miss you (I miss you)
     Oh, now (Now) and then (And then)
     I want you to return to me
     Now (Now) and then (And then)
     I miss you (I miss you)
     Oh, now (Now) and then (And then)
     I want you to return to me
     Now (Now) and then (And then)

     Sad cause some post John Lennon stuff has been really good. The stripped back version of Woman was brilliant.

     Fat Mattress’s Petrol Pump Assistant.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkLC5GsUnU
7. adam 7

   3 November 2023 at 2:02 pm

   6 seat for Te Pāti Māori and overhang baby!
   • Dennis Frank 7.1

     3 November 2023 at 2:08 pm

     Yeah…

     Te Pati Māori has increased from four seats to six, after their candidates defeated two seasoned Labour candidates. The Green Party also gained one seat, up from 14 on election night.

     Takutai Kemp won the Māori electorate seat, Tāmaki Makaurau by four votes over Peeni Henare while Mariameo Kapa-Kingi won Te Tai Tokerau with a majority of 517 votes over Labour Party deputy leader Kelvin Davis. As a result, there will be overhang in Parliament by two seats because Te Pati Māori won more electorate seats than it would otherwise have from its share of the party vote.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301001429/live-final-election-results-imminent
8. Dennis Frank 8

   3 November 2023 at 2:06 pm

   NZF in control:

   National lost two electorate seats. Labour’s Rachel Boyack took Nelson, and Phil Twyford, has won Te Atatū in Auckland, overtaking the National candidates by 29 and 131 votes, respectively.

   This leaves National with 48 seats in Parliament – down from 50 on election night. Even combined with the ACT Party’s 11 seats, which were unchanged from election night, this is short of the majority needed for the parties to form a coalition government.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301001429/live-final-election-results-imminent

   Dunno where Stuff got it from: I was watching this:
   The Electoral Commission will have the official results for the 2023 General Election published here on Friday 3 November 2023. https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/

   Finals still not posted @ 2.11pm…
   • SPC 8.1

     3 November 2023 at 2:08 pm

     National will go to 49 with the by election.

     Greens an extra seat to 15
     TPM 6
     Labour stay 34

     68-55
     • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

       3 November 2023 at 2:25 pm

       Right. Geddes just told Jack Tame that Henare will almost certainly go for a recount (lost by 4 votes). Celia Wade Brown may get in @ # 15 on the Greens list…
       • SPC 8.1.1.1

         3 November 2023 at 2:43 pm

         These are the MP's at this point – because of the 3 electorate seats CWB is next (16th).

         https://elections.nz/assets/2023-General-Election/Attachment-A-successful-candidates-2023.pdf
         • Sanctuary 8.1.1.1.1

           3 November 2023 at 2:46 pm

           Andrew Little has packed it in, I wonder who the lucky punter next off the rank is?
           • SPC 8.1.1.1.1.1

             3 November 2023 at 2:50 pm

             Camille Bellich – no 26.

             https://www.labour.org.nz/ourteam
             • Sanctuary …

               3 November 2023 at 2:57 pm

               Bellich should haave got Mt. Albert over that waste of space Helen White.
               • newsense …

                 4 November 2023 at 2:49 am

                 Not according to the LEC. That’s still what matters. And weren’t you complaining about the party being completely run by a professional class from Wellington?
         • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.1.2

           3 November 2023 at 2:51 pm

           Helen White is only 20 votes ahead in Mt Albert, which is the number Geddes said is viable for a recount.

           https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2023/electorate-status.html
9. Sanctuary 9

   3 November 2023 at 2:22 pm

   So who made it in for Labour?
   • adam 9.1

     3 November 2023 at 2:26 pm

     Twitty and Boyack
   • Dennis Frank 9.2

     3 November 2023 at 2:27 pm

     See #8…
   • SPC 9.3

     3 November 2023 at 2:47 pm

     The number 26 on the Labour list is Camille Bellich – she comes in when Little goes.

     122 of our MP's plus one off the National list when "someone" moves on to become PW MP.

     https://elections.nz/assets/2023-General-Election/Attachment-A-successful-candidates-2023.pdf
10. adam 10

    3 November 2023 at 2:35 pm

    Trump the complete ass he was, has enabled another dick waving ass to play dangerous games.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/03/putin-revokes-russias-ratification-of-nuclear-test-ban-treaty/
11. Sanctuary 11

    3 November 2023 at 2:38 pm

    Here I was waiting for Sue Grey to be catapulted into the Beehive!
    • lprent 11.1

      3 November 2023 at 2:53 pm

      I don't believe that she wanted to un-ban catapults. A trebuchet or a ballista perhaps.

      Or perhaps a slingshot.
12. observer 12

    3 November 2023 at 2:45 pm

    In 3 years time the lessons we learn every 3 years will be forgotten once again, and it will be the same misleading picture.

    Election night is not the election result. It never is. Learn, forget … Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

    Around 8 pm on election night National were on 42%. So a lot of people in TV studios said silly things and kept on saying them. National plus ACT were 65 seats, and then 64,63, 62 … and finally 59 (which will be 60 after the by-election).

    I suppose nobody wants to say "let's wait, let's wait", coz it's boring telly. But it is accurate reporting.
    • lprent 12.1

      3 November 2023 at 3:03 pm

      My on the night guesses at midnight for the final were

      Nat ~38% (close) they kept going down as the bigger booths gave results Just slipped below 40% when I was going to bed.

      Lab ~28% (not close) obviously not as much as I expected

      Greens ~11.5% + from specials

      NZF ~6% – never move much on specials

      I expected Act to fall a little bit and TPM to remain the same (outside of electorate seats).
13. Rolling-on-Gravel 13

    3 November 2023 at 3:02 pm

    The results thus so far:

    26 – Labour

    11 – Greens

    3 – Te Patī Māori

    (40% seats)

    38 (soon to be 39) – National

    8 – Act

    6 – NZ First

    (52-3% seats)

    The highest non-overhang seat percentage is:

    2 – The Opportunities Party

    My source?

    https://elections.nz/media-and-news/2023/official-results-for-the-2023-general-election/

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