Open Mike 04/03/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 4th, 2018 - 223 comments
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223 comments on “Open Mike 04/03/2018 ”

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  1. reason 1
    4 March 2018 at 7:06 am

    For me … the first electronic dance music I got into was Leftfield … I still like it / them

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WlTlfTng3M

    Joy division had their moments too

    • JohnSelway 1.1
      4 March 2018 at 1:47 pm

      For me it was Jeff Mills…

    • JohnSelway 1.2
      4 March 2018 at 5:27 pm

      BTW – small but important point….this is New Order, not Joy Division….my seem trivial but I’m a huge music geek and these things matter!

      • reason 1.2.1
        4 March 2018 at 10:06 pm

        Cheers JohnS, and thanks for the accuracy …. I knew they had evolved but was having a mental block on their name …… Joy Division to New Order.

        The past has a lot of gems for music and video clips…. the Artists deserve correct recognition.

        Old school rocks …. 🙂

        • JohnSelway 1.2.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 10:13 pm

          If we are taking Madchester – I always preferred Happy Monday’s to either Joy Division or New Order

          • reason 1.2.1.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 10:48 pm

            Whats taking Madchester ? 🙂

            I sort of went from Punk to Ska to a lot of Aussie rock and other rock and blues.

            And then ended up liking a lot of electronic dance stuff …. some of which linked back to the punk 😉

            • JohnSelway 1.2.1.1.1.1
              4 March 2018 at 10:57 pm

              Madchester?

              Happy Mondays…. New Order… Joy Divsion… A Certain Ratio… Factory Records… Martin Hannit…Tony Wilson….The Hacienda…

              Dude, the start of rave culture (outside of Detroit). You can’t talk electronica and Leftfield without the history of it.

              Start with the movie “24 Hour Party People”.

              It’ll be ok…. (I’m a fucking audio nerd, man)

              EDIT – I meant ‘talking Madchester’

            • Incognito 1.2.1.1.1.2
              4 March 2018 at 11:02 pm

              Listened to a few songs by The Seekers last night and enjoyed it 😉

              • patricia bremner …
                4 March 2018 at 11:39 pm

                Norm is teaching himself Gordon Lightfoot’s ” Edmond Fitzgerald” Canadian folk song, on the guitar, so we are late tonight.( site is bettylouallartists)

              • tracey …
                5 March 2018 at 9:10 am

                Love the seekers too. New Order and the Seekers. Why not

      • tracey 1.2.2
        5 March 2018 at 9:08 am

        Yeah was going to say. I loved New Order

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2
    4 March 2018 at 7:27 am

    Otago Uni law camp + naked jelly wrestling.

    This year “student organisers have vowed to clampown on drunkeness and ban “full nudity”.

    …

    “In a statement, the university went on to say that staff members attend the camp.
    “Mostly the person who attends is the Dean of the Law Faculty as an invited guest.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12005929

    • Stunned mullet 2.1
      4 March 2018 at 7:51 am

      Drunkenness and nudity at otago Uni……..I’m shocked, shocked I tell you !

    • Psycho Milt 2.2
      4 March 2018 at 9:27 am

      Study is intensely boring. It needs to be liberally interspersed with Noise, Narcotics and Nakedness. Otherwise, what’s the point?

      • tracey 2.2.1
        5 March 2018 at 9:14 am

        Funny though, if beneficiaries behave like this the middle classes get quite irate about how “they” are wasting “my” money but when a student paid for by us…

        I know a guy who bought a home in Dunedin while at the Uni. Rented out the rooms. Used a student loan. All with advice of his wealthy father ( who at dinner parties railed against beneficiaries taking his hard earned money). Didnt complete the Degree. Known as a drug dealer. Maxed the student loan. Sold the house, moved home to Auckland and working for his Dad.

        Definition of a bludger?

        😉

    • Tamati Tautuhi 2.3
      4 March 2018 at 9:35 am

      Not surprised when it comes to the legal fraternity, they are a different life form from normal human beings.

      • alwyn 2.3.1
        4 March 2018 at 11:10 am

        “Not surprised when it comes to the legal fraternity”
        True. If they were like all the other Otago students they would be burning their sofas in the streets.
        Favourite activity of the denizens from that University I understand. Why do the Law students try and be different?

    • weka 2.4
      4 March 2018 at 12:29 pm

      For the people who think it’s just a bit of fun and students need to let off steam, read the whole article, then go read up on the emerging #metoo story about NZ law firms. Those things are connected, and if you’re not already making the connections it’s time to start listening to what women are saying about this.

      • Psycho Milt 2.4.1
        4 March 2018 at 1:51 pm

        Ah, I see. This bit has “law students as future sexual harrassment risk management nightmares” written all over it:

        One girl was selected from each group to take part in a jelly wrestling competition.

        …

        “All the senior fifth year students pulled out chairs right next to the pit…”

        So, it’s not actually a story about students drinking and taking their clothes off, it’s a story about hazing, sexual harassment and abuse of authority. It would help if journalists and the University were capable of distinguishing between those things.

        • weka 2.4.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 2:28 pm

          Pretty much. I think anything with ‘law’ and ‘full nudity/jelly wrestling’ or similar should be raising eyebrows now. That’s one whole big mess of culture and entrenched attitudes that will take some time to unravel.

          • tracey 2.4.1.1.1
            5 March 2018 at 9:21 am

            Senior students setting up chairs as the inner ring while others are behind them.

            Would love to see the demographic breakdown of tge participant/organisers.

            ALL claims of a changed legal culture are beginning to sound very hollow.

            I left this profession in 1995 for similar reasons as are being revealed today. Add in a boss who average a secretary every 6 months for the 5 years I worked for him. Who would ask them if they liked “being such a stupid cunt”.

            Stood at my door one day and yelled at me, nay screamed, what sort of stupid cunt does that?”. I stood up. Got the file. Flicked to the page whereI had recorded his instructions. Showed him. He looked said ” fuck it” and walked off. I went to the tooilet and vommitted.

            The other partner had an office next to mine and must have heard the whole exchange.

        • weka 2.4.1.2
          4 March 2018 at 7:09 pm

          This from someone much closer to that scene,

          https://twitter.com/izzyelle/status/970019052021194752

  3. savenz 3
    4 March 2018 at 8:24 am

    TPPA protests against the signing

    Our Nationwide Day of Action has morphed into a Nationwide Week of Action

    Events around the country;

    Whangarei Sunday 4th of March:

    Rally 1pm, Tawera Park near the Whangarei Info Centre

    https://www.facebook.com/events/571225906585646/

    Auckland Sunday 4th of March:

    Rally 1pm, Aotea Square, Queen Street
    https://www.facebook.com/events/805505526324341/

    Waihi Sunday 4th of March:

    Details to come
    https://www.facebook.com/events/155211191848613/

    New Plymouth Sunday 4th of March:

    Rally and picnic, 1pm Puke Ariki Landing
    https://www.facebook.com/events/1804674232898957/

    Wellington Thursday 8th of March:

    Rally, 1pm, Parliament grounds
    https://www.facebook.com/events/161873691200281/

    Nelson Saturday 3rd of March:

    Rally, 10.30am, Cathedral Steps
    https://www.facebook.com/events/143815816431911/

    Christchurch Thursday 8th of March:

    Details to come
    https://www.facebook.com/events/218094512072247/

    Dunedin Sunday 4th of March:

    Rally, 12pm, Upper Octagon
    https://www.facebook.com/events/577900969251483/

  4. Psycho Milt 4
    4 March 2018 at 10:07 am

    Just pasting this in here from the James Shaw’s speech to the Green Summer Policy Conference thread, as I keep seeing comments along the lines of the government, and in particular the Greens, not having done much in all that lengthy time it’s been in power. Here are a few of the things they’ve done in the last few months:

    Collectively, our ministers have already announced a review of the Waste Minimisation Act, so that it finally works the way Nandor intended when his Bill was passed in 2008;

    We’ve announced the imminent creation of a Climate Commission and a Carbon Zero Act that will legislate the elimination of greenhouse gas pollution by 2050 – the most significant piece of environmental legislation in our country’s history;

    We’ve initiated a work programme into sexual harassment in the workplace;

    We’ve reconvened the pay equity group so that women can finally be paid what they deserve.

    And just this week the Government announced a law change that will help ensure future legislation complies with the Human Rights Act – that’s long been our policy and that couldn’t have happened without the Greens in government.

    All of this in four months, and that’s just what we’ve been able to talk about publicly.

    If you find that unimpressive, and I expect there are some who would, stop to consider for a moment what a NACT/NZ First government would have done in the last four months.

    • alwyn 4.1
      4 March 2018 at 11:26 am

      “just what we’ve been able to talk about publicly”.
      So what is in the other 33 pages of the Labour/NZF agreement that you committed to support and are rather embarrassed to mention?
      You claim to be open and superior to all the other parties.
      Well speak up. Tell us about all the secret strategy that Winston the First has ordered you to hide from the Public of New Zealand. The stuff you aren’t allowed to talk about publicly.

      Reading Shaw’s list of successes does rather guild the lily doesn’t it? I mean look at his claim that “Government announced a law change that will help ensure future legislation complies with the Human Rights Act “. “Ensure” the man says. Since any Government, including his one can, and will, simply ignore anything a Court says it is hard to see how it can possibly “ensure” anything at all.
      I notice James doesn’t claim credit for scrapping a Kermadec sanctuary, and carefully ignores his agreement to support the “Preserve Winnies’ perks” bill.
      Come on Shaw. Take credit for everything you support.

      Oh well. I guess he can hardly admit that his main achievement was to get Winston to allow a bunch of Green MPs access to the great big BMWs reserved for the Overlords.

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 11:51 am

        Outside the bizarre tinfoil-hat world of right-wing blogs, in which the Labour/NZF coalition agreement is a kind of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact complete with Secret Additional Protocol, Shaw’s talking about the stuff that is being worked on but isn’t ready to be made public yet.

        And no, Shaw doesn’t waste Green Party conference time on the subjects of previous-government clusterfucks that his government is going to have to clean up, or the various dubious antics of NZ First. He’d be a pretty poor leader if he did.

        • patricia bremner 4.1.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 1:39 pm

          It is a flag waving “Look over here” by a Right winger.
          They don’t want us to look at transparency issues!
          No,” look at what the Greens haven’t done.” LOL Hehe have another go.

        • tracey 4.1.1.2
          5 March 2018 at 9:23 am

          Plus 100well said

      • Incognito 4.1.2
        4 March 2018 at 12:32 pm

        Today is 129 days since swearing in of the Government, Alwyn. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-03-2018/#comment-1456504

        Your MO still seems to be a mixture of blame and gotcha politics. Time to change your tune to something a little more uplifting?

        • alwyn 4.1.2.1
          4 March 2018 at 8:36 pm

          Fascinating.
          After 128 days you try and tell me it is far to soon for me to ask that the CoL should really have got round to doing something.
          Now after 129 days you are asking that I forget about it because it has been such a long time that I should have moved onto something new.
          Can you not make up your mind?

          Actually I can’t make up my mind what Shaw is on about. He is turning out to be the flip-flopper from Hell. Perhaps you can tell me?

          Is he trying to pretend that he is important and knows lots of secrets that we mere plebs don’t know anything about because we are mushrooms?

          Or is he saying that he can’t talk about plans for the future because his Boss, King Winnie the First, hasn’t told him what he is going to have to support?

          Those are really the only two options of course. Which of them do you think is the real one?

          • Incognito 4.1.2.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 9:54 pm

            Hi Alwyn,

            It’s indeed fascinating that 129 days is one day closer to your prescient 5-month time point; is that when the Government has to have achieved more of those symbolic milestones like in the first 100 days? I’d wait 2 more days as 131 is Prime, which, for some, reason seems more appropriate to me.

            You enjoy freedom of mind like we all do, to some degree, therefore I cannot force your mind to consider more than those two ‘options’ that you mentioned. So, take your pick and live in your self-created reality in and of which you’re master & commander 😉

            Or you could step out of the sandpit and join the adults for mature discourse. Again, the choice is yours, as always, Alwyn.

            I hope you won’t mind that I don’t jump into the sandpit tonight; it is nothing personal 😉

          • tracey 4.1.2.1.2
            5 March 2018 at 9:25 am

            If you refuse to consider the list of what they have actually done and ask us to box shadows instead you have no one to blame but yourself when you dont get the replies you want.

            I think at this stage of the National governments first term we were just getting the job summit

    • tracey 4.2
      5 March 2018 at 9:22 am

      Plus 100

  5. Muttonbird 5
    4 March 2018 at 10:38 am

    To me this article highlights the gross lack of progressive governance of the last government the fault of which lies squarely at the feet of John Key and especially Bill English.

    Rather than produce programs to energise and motivate young Kiwis and their communities, and give them hope for the future, they just imported economic refugees to supercharge the economy at the same time ignoring the current disadvantaged.

    It was a cheap and lazy way to go about things and lacked any vision for the future of strong and hopeful New Zealand families.

    At the very least the new government will attempt energise local community programs which is a start but until all the other factors which keep disadvantaged communities down are fixed it is going to be tough.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018634437/insight-no-job-no-training-no-hope

  6. Incognito 6
    4 March 2018 at 10:40 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics

    At 10.38 am this morning three Green Party politicians feature with thumbnail photos and all.

    One though is conspicuously missing.

    Discuss.

    • weka 6.1
      4 March 2018 at 12:37 pm

      Timing favoured JAG today?

      • Incognito 6.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:52 pm

        Yes, you might be right about the timing but with the news-cycle being ca. 12 hours nowadays it pays to have balance in time & space in MSM. The Green Party goes out of its way to give both candidates equal attention, which they both deserve but also it’s principally the way to conduct these (political) affairs. MSM is still behind the eight ball.

    • greywarshark 6.2
      4 March 2018 at 12:38 pm

      I just looked up the link Incognito put up and went further to Newshub reference to a debate on Facebook today between Genter and Marama Davidson.

      The type of comment is disturbing. The sneering, malicious attitude says that these are people who are deeply negative without any sense of interest or positivity about their fellow humans and society. People who want a good society and good politicians leading it don’t talk or think like this.

      https://www.facebook.com/NewshubNZ/posts/10156412678438606
      First three – it gets a bit better after:

      Kiore Manarette It’s like a choice between Dumb and Dumber.. 😀
      14
      · Reply · 2h
      11 Replies · 36 min

      John Briggs And who’s on the Benfit this Time???, James !!.
      1
      · Reply · 2h
      3 Replies · 1 hr

      Donovan Greenwood it’s got to be Marama Davidson. She doesnt have a bun in the oven so is mentally, emotionally, physically ready for the job.
      Easy win for her if they’re putting politics first 🙂
      1
      · Reply · 2h

      • Incognito 6.2.1
        4 March 2018 at 1:01 pm

        I would not read too much in those comments; do you pay much attention to comments on RW blog sites? I’ve yet to come across one (in NZ) that can hold and keep together a mature constructive debate between adults but I fully admit I’ve stop searching for it …

        • greywarshark 6.2.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 1:05 pm

          Incognito
          I don’t follow the other sites much as I can’t bear to wear out my older years reading such god-awful trashy distasteful useless braindead comments.

          So every time I come across them again I am freshly upset. I don’t do it often – my old heart can’t take the sadness.

          • Incognito 6.2.1.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 1:32 pm

            I hear you but please don’t be sad or upset and focus on the positives, the kindness, and the beauty around and in! ourselves, in all of us. Not so long ago we apparently were sea creatures that crawled on land or mud dwellers living at the tide mark, or we were cast there by a storm more likely, and started breathing air and now we’re communicating here on TS and breathing through our noses. I call that evolution and progress 😉

          • patricia bremner 6.2.1.1.2
            4 March 2018 at 1:50 pm

            They try to bring us down to their level, with intended and careless comments.
            This is a time to strengthen our bonds with people who share our end goals.
            Now we may argue at times how to achieve them democratically, but with good will and moves towards open Government plus a momentum building good change it will happen.

            • greywarshark 6.2.1.1.2.1
              4 March 2018 at 2:00 pm

              Haha Incognito and Patricia. I know what you say is true. What’s the alternative to keeping on keeping on if one doesn’t want to end up sour and negative and seeing everyone in that way.

              This is a great place to meet people with heart and a desire for openness and respect for others and for us all to keep learning what we need to support each other through the testing years that have been forecast ahead, but which seem to be collapsing in time.

              And still people seem to think they are living in the 1980’s only with more devices. The future is so exciting they say, but they are like people looking through a keyhole. That small view can be obliterated in a trice. But they don’t know what a trice is, that’s old language!

    • Psycho Milt 6.3
      4 March 2018 at 1:27 pm

      From memory, in their interview the other day Genter listed as an advantage the fact that being a cabinet minister would give her a higher media profile. So this is evidence for her claim.

      Which might seem unfair advantage at first glance, but Davidson listed as an advantage the fact that not having ministerial duties gives her more time to work directly with the communities the Greens need to reach, so it all evens out.

      • Incognito 6.3.1
        4 March 2018 at 3:36 pm

        Yes, you’re correct and it’s a good point to bring up, thank you.

        Please note that I didn’t mention fairness as such and my main concern is balanced reporting. There are already too many pushing for the Green Party to go back to its so-called roots and stick to environmentalism or something similar. For this reason I’m concerned about lack of balance in MSM on anything to do with the GP; it’s bigger than the leadership contest between JAG and MD, which may be unfair to these two outstanding individuals.

        I’m also not so sure that it really evens out at this point in time because JAG may have distinct advantage with name-recognition in the lead up but I agree that afterwards it may even out; unfortunately, only one can be elected as GP Co-Leader – a tough choice.

    • alwyn 6.4
      4 March 2018 at 8:50 pm

      Who are the Green MPs shown?
      I thought I had identified who the Green MPs in Parliament were but they have been so overshadowed by their Overlord The Right Honourable Sir Winston the First that they have become non-persons.
      Has the election of a female leader taken place yet by the way? If so who is it?
      I also thought that Shaw had grown a beard. Was I mistaken? If he tried and ended up looking like Mallard of course common sense would have told him to shave.

  7. Muttonbird 7
    4 March 2018 at 10:49 am

    Would anyone else like JA to sell her other house, if she hasn’t already, in order to set an example?

    The example being you only need one house to live in and amateur landlordism and using residential property as a retirement scheme is not ok.

    • Psycho Milt 7.1
      4 March 2018 at 11:35 am

      I’d file “What Jacinda Ardern Does with Her House” in the drawer marked “None of my fuckin’ business.”

      I think that, to many who read this blog, JA setting the example “Look! I’m turning down a lot of free money for the good of society!” would be a stirring and very heartening one. However, for ordinary people, deliberately failing to make use of a significant asset is a marker of foolishness, not virtue, so she’d be nuts to do it.

      The government does need to do something about this, but at the level of property and tax legislation, not the setting of personal examples.

      • mauī 7.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:03 pm

        Can’t say I agree with that, sort of like if the prime minister only chose to use private healthcare while being responsible for the public health system. Then her saving grace can be “well most kiwis think you should use private healthcare if you can afford it so I will”. Just wrong.

        • patricia bremner 7.1.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 1:55 pm

          Our P.M. is going out of her way to support small NZ businesses, in clothing shoes and gifts. She won’t do anything without planning. She told us she is a nerd with anxieties.

      • Muttonbird 7.1.2
        4 March 2018 at 12:22 pm

        Yeah, see when you said “turning down a lot of free money” you nailed it. This is what has led to the situation we are in today. If she was true to her voters she would make some sort of personal statement on this, I would have thought.

        • Psycho Milt 7.1.2.1
          4 March 2018 at 1:40 pm

          It is what has led to the situation we’re in today, but individuals setting altruistic examples isn’t going to be much help, it needs legislative change – which isn’t something Ardern can just order by fiat, especially so given that a lot of voters aren’t going to like having the government take away the magic money tree.

    • mauī 7.2
      4 March 2018 at 11:53 am

      I think it’s a bad look generally, Ardern can buy a new million dollar house without blinking an eye while the rest of Auckland and other parts of NZ are really struggling with escalating rents and sub standard living conditions (residing in garages, cars, etc).

      Imagine the leadership shown if she said she will live in a motel housing beneficiaries for 6 months to get a feeling of the housing crisis. Meanwhile she could urgently kickstart work on say an Auckland community apartment complex, being a smarter use of land and one where rents were affordable for all kiwis. Once built she could live there for another 6 – 12 months as an example of how we need bold thinking to solve the house crisis.

      • Muttonbird 7.2.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:28 pm

        That’s going a bit far because how could she be expected to do her job living in a way we all recognise as unliveable?

        I do think the building of a property portfolio is inconsistent with what her voters expect her to be doing about the housing crisis.

        I can also see how conflicted our resident Nats must be about this. On the one hand they’d love to score points by attacking JA, but also the sanctity of making free money off residential property is untouchable.

        • patricia bremner 7.2.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 2:00 pm

          Her parents might live there later. Would that annoy you as well?

        • greywarshark 7.2.1.2
          4 March 2018 at 2:46 pm

          Are you people lefties? Or just nitpicking troublemakers agin everything? Get a better outlook. And leave Jacinda and our Labour people alone unless they do something out of whack or criminal. Please. Give them a one year trial with mostly positive advice, they might heed it if you aren’t countering it with negatives like this.

          Find some other target for your abuse, and your Guy Fawkes fuel. Tell me what sort of a person I am in your opinion. I’m old and it would take a strongly-tipped missive to do real damage.

        • mauī 7.2.1.3
          4 March 2018 at 7:15 pm

          Living in a motel isn’t unliveable, it’s uncomfortable sure and it’s an example of the manifestation of the housing crisis too.

          What better way to solve a major problem in society than experiencing it and living it. Keep your general on the frontline so they know exactly the problems the troops face and how best to win the war.

      • Pete 7.2.2
        4 March 2018 at 4:17 pm

        Yeah, and John Key could’ve moved from Parnell to Manurewa too.

        “Ardern can buy a new million dollar house without blinking an eye?”

        I hear and read often enough about the “Women’sWeeklyisation” of the PM and the trite fluffy coverage of stuff she does, might do, could do, should do, might dream about doing, did or whatever.

        She does an ordinary thing, buys a house, the world goes crazy in context and now I see she didn’t even blink an eye? Jesus wept.

    • veutoviper 7.3
      4 March 2018 at 12:05 pm

      I suggest you do a little research before making assumptions/ judgements/accusations of amateur landlordism, retirement investments etc.

      Ardern’s parents are returning to live in Auckland,NZ in the next month or so after living in the Pacific for about the last 10 years. Her father was NZ Police liaison representative first in Niue and then in Samoa, and after his retirement from NZ Police was appointed as NZ High Commissioner to Niue and has served there for the last four years. He has now been appointed NZ Administrator of Tulelau (the last NZ dependency in the Pacific) based in Auckland.

      Her sister is also returning to NZ from the UK in the next few months with her husband and two pre-school children after years of also living overseas.

      The family will helping with support after the baby is born. As JA’s current home is very small, they probably need both homes in the meantime to house the returning whanau until they get themselves sorted.

      The family may also be helping financially.

      • Muttonbird 7.3.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:25 pm

        Is the family going to use that extra house, even if they probably don’t need to?

        Just saying that RW attack blogs are using this multiple house owning to undermine her.

        • Macro 7.3.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 12:35 pm

          You know that the average home ownership of Nat MP’s is >3.

          Which parties boast the biggest property portfolios?

          National Party MPs are the biggest property owners, with interests in 190 properties, an average of 3.43 per MP.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/92409698/the-many-houses-of-our-mps–which-mps-have-a-stake-in-multiple-properties

          RW’s should think about removing the mote in their own eye first.

        • weka 7.3.1.2
          4 March 2018 at 12:39 pm

          “Just saying that RW attack blogs are using this multiple house owning to undermine her.”

          really? Because I thought you were running your own lines.

          • Muttonbird 7.3.1.2.1
            4 March 2018 at 1:12 pm

            Well, the motives are different. They are trying to point to a sort of deliberate hypocrisy as a way of reducing her credibility. I am concerned with what messages she’s sending to the people who are struggling with housing certainty and who voted for change.

            • weka 7.3.1.2.1.1
              4 March 2018 at 1:22 pm

              Ok, fair enough on the motives. What are JA and her partner intending to do with the house?

              • Muttonbird …
                4 March 2018 at 1:29 pm

                I don’t know but it doesn’t feel right to me that they (the government) acknowledge the perils to society of multiple house caching while doing it themselves.

                • weka …
                  4 March 2018 at 1:35 pm

                  What do you mean by caching?

                  • Muttonbird …
                    4 March 2018 at 1:52 pm

                    Storing, building up.

                    • weka …
                      4 March 2018 at 2:23 pm

                      So you are criticising JA for intending to keep an empty house but you don’t actually know if that is what she intends to do? Can you not see a problem with that?

                • veutoviper …
                  4 March 2018 at 2:05 pm

                  As I have pointed out in 7.3 above and below at 7.3.1.3, the purchase of the new house would appear to be a straightforward practical one based on the small size of the current one etc and having family (four adults and two children) returning to NZ after living overseas for years. No more; no less.

                  Yes Kiwiblog has a continuing stream of shallow one liner comments on it – as they do on any number of topics. However, there was some discussion on the fact you have to own for two years before selling to not be eligible for paying tax on any profit. I think that JA/CG only bought their current house about 18 months ago so would be mad to sell it before the two years is up, especially when family could live in it in the meantime.

            • Pete 7.3.1.2.1.2
              4 March 2018 at 4:21 pm

              Maybe the ones trying to point to a sort of deliberate hypocrisy as a way of reducing her credibility are rabid, one-eyed pissed-off cretins who can’t think of intelligent ways of spending their limited time on planet Earth.

              • veutoviper …
                4 March 2018 at 4:33 pm

                LOL! Well said. Whaleoil has a post up with almost a 100 comments. I now need a very long shower.

        • veutoviper 7.3.1.3
          4 March 2018 at 1:11 pm

          The statement yesterday was that they needed a bigger house (the new one) to accommodate family who would be staying and helping following the birth.

          Quite frankly, from what has been shown of the inside and outside of their current house on JA and CG’s various social media accounts, it is pretty small and compact – more a pensioner 2 bedroom unit than a family home. Even with just the two of them and a baby it would be cramped, never mind with other family.

          I also understand that the current property is not very suitable for security purposes; and the need to provide for DPS officers 24/7 is causing some parking and other problems for neighbours.

          No statement has been made as to whether they are going to sell their current property immediately or later. But from a practical point of view, if you have bought a new house and have family returning to NZ it makes sense to keep both in the meantime to accommodate the returnees in the short term or maybe even in the longer term.

    • greywarshark 7.4
      4 March 2018 at 12:43 pm

      Practically Jacinda would be unwise to sell her house as she doesn’t know how soon the support from fickle NZs for her to be PM and in politics will last. If she is rejected or becomes disillusioned with the bruising and brutal arena, she might decide to retire from it for a while, look after her toddler and take up Karate or Judo or some other non-blood fighting sport.

  8. greywarshark 8
    4 March 2018 at 10:50 am

    I suppose this matter of the secret Court case has been covered on TS. I did check to see if someone noted it on the 2/3 out of the 283 comments from 18 lead comments. I should check O/M for the 3rd but am worn out. So I will just put it up so those who are interested in what is going on, or not, in NZ can be informed.

    It’s about the secret High Court case and originally published by Spinoff, written by Andrew Geddis, Professor of Law at University of Otago. And its about a Court case, very strange and worrying, and perhaps an example of how a facult can be inflated into a crime that can be inflated into something coming under some newly adopted secret law or security code.

    The thin edge of the wedge often gets mentioned scornfully when people bleat about bringing in some new law, me included, but it does happen at times. Is this an example of government being despotic or acting under the supremacy of another government, bending its own laws and customs to do so?? Shades of Dotcom and our country acting under another’s orders.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/351672/secret-court-case-anathema-to-fairness
    Andrew Geddis 2/3/18

    So, a trial where no public or media are allowed in at all? That’s a big deal. What could it involve?

    The suspicions of at least some of us were confirmed when Justice Venning, the Chief High Court Judge, released a statement confirming the subject of the case. It involves an appeal by a Melbourne-based New Zealand woman against a decision to cancel her passport on the grounds that she represents a national security threat to some other, unspecified country. By removing her passport, the New Zealand government says it can neutralise that threat by stopping her from being able to travel there.

    How do we know this? Because her case already has been before the High Court last year, when she sought to challenge the government’s claim that not only did her appeal have to be held in secret, but that neither she nor her lawyer were allowed to know the reasons why her passport had been cancelled.

    Those reasons, said the government, constituted “classified security information”. And under the Passports Act 2002, it’s not just the public and press who can’t be in the courtroom to hear the content of such information. Neither can the person whose passport is cancelled, nor that person’s lawyer.

    Justice Dobson, who heard that earlier case and is hearing the current one as well, was not entirely happy about this situation. As he noted in a judgment that somewhat reluctantly concluded that the legislation had to be read in this manner:

    “The whole of our common law tradition, as bolstered by the rights and protections recognised by New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, render the procedure under [the Passports Act] an anathema to the fundamental concepts of fairness. However, the reality is that Parliament has recognised the justification for the use of that procedure in defined circumstances.”

    So, here’s what is happening in the High Court in Wellington. A woman is asking to get her passport back after the government took it off her. She is doing so without knowing the evidence the government has for deciding she represents a security risk, without being able to be in the court to watch the case being argued, and without being able to have her own lawyer present to argue for her (although some unnamed “advocates” have been appointed to “assist with issues that have to be dealt with” in her absence).

    • veutoviper 8.1
      4 March 2018 at 11:51 am

      There was considerable discussion on Daily Review 28 Feb under Anne’s comment at 4.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-28-02-2018/#comment-1455250

      My understanding is the the court proceedings will be continuing this coming week.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:22 pm

        Thanks VV. Those of us catching up have some good material to connect with.

    • mary_a 8.2
      4 March 2018 at 9:14 pm

      greywarshark (8) … thanks for the info. Also read that the case is being heard in the basement of the Wellington High Court, for security reasons!

      If neither the woman concerned nor her lawyer are allowed in court to argue the case, then it would be interesting to know who is arguing against who in the closed hearing, something I feel in fairness, the woman and her lawyer should have details about. Unnamed “advocates” not being good enough.

      And the “unspecified country” for which this woman presents a national security threat is … ??

  9. greywarshark 9
    4 March 2018 at 11:07 am

    New Zealand Country
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/351650/mpi-faces-100m-bill-over-cattle-disease
    MPI faces $100m bill over cattle disease
    4:34 pm on 2 March 2018
    Eric Frykberg, Reporter
    eric.frykberg@radionz.co.nz

    The Ministry for Primary Industries looks set to face a $100 million bill
    for the crippling cattle disease Mycoplasma bovis.

    But hey – user pays innit? MPI is not ultimately paying for this giant diseased cowpat, it is we, all of us in the NZ taxpayers union who pay 15c in the $1 GST on everything if not big bags out of our income.

    $100 million should be borne from a farmers insurance against disease etc out of their income and then they might start looking at the costs that they impose on the country. And the real, small, farmers can start agitating against the game players that erect the barriers of inflated land prices that add to the costs of those on the ground just getting on with the job, rather than poncing around buying and selling farms on leverage etc.

    If they can afford to own more than one or two farms they can pay for the enormous costs the country faces trying to have biosecurity borders and the lapses thereof. In this case of disease it can be laid at their door surely.

    • patricia bremner 9.1
      4 March 2018 at 12:01 pm

      Yes, the fact they farm to provide food and exports should not exempt them from paying forward on risk factors. They need to be brought under the rules the rest of us live by, and that may slow their appetite for risk. Insurance to cover risks and deposits of a suitable size.

      Farms, like homes should not be gambling chips in our ever more fragile world.

      • greywarshark 9.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 12:19 pm

        Thanks for your thoughts Patricia. What you think seems to be towards the practical and effective – a good thing to read on TS amongst the wider and perhaps wilder inputs.

    • cleangreen 9.2
      4 March 2018 at 1:17 pm

      Yes greywarshark

      Now we know that thus Micoplasma Bovis disease can be transmitted by urine and excrement we worry that those cow wastes are being sprayed all over our roads from leaky overflowing tank traps on those long haul trucks and that pollutes our water systems from the road drains and will end up in our drinking water to!!!!!!

      What about the road runoff onto our homes from trucks passing through our suburbs now???

      Christ we are stuffed as this is so bloody serious now, and MPI don’t know how to control it they admitted.

      I am again to write to the Ministry of Environment about this new threat to our residential communities again, Ministry of the Environment who have been so silent on this and other things ‘see here.’

      Climate change emissions and truck increased use is now found to be really occurring as trucks are dirty emitters of climate emissions/carbon.

      In 2018 after Napier has now become a “truck gridlocked” community with a large export port and over 90% of all export freight is still carried on trucks we are now so desperate for a safe quiet environment we have now referred this issue back to the Ministry of the Environment after 18 yrs of no solution yet being offered.

      We have asked for a inland port to transfer the freight onto rail to Napier Port as it was recommended by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment in 2006.

      http://www.pce.parliament.nz/media/pdfs/Hawkes-Bay-Expressway-Noise-and-air-quality-issues-June-2005.pdf

      Ministry for the Environment
      PO Box 10362
      Wellington

      Dear Ministry of the Environment. 3/3/18.

      As you may already be aware, we have over the last 20 years, we all have had extremely serious public health related issues regarding urban residential communities who are constantly exposed to adverse health effects from heavy truck traffic passing through their urban areas on a ‘truck route’ highway that very often in NZ has inadequate mitigation measures to protect the health and well being of those communities.

      As it is the policy of a Government to advocacy and to seek solutions through public and local input and consultation, as defined by the Court of Appeal 1992!!!!

      We have been involved heavily in that process since our communications to you since May 2002.

      Since then, we have been gathering evidence, reports and results of air quality studies independently conducted in coalition with Watercare Services, NIWA, HB Public Health and Ministry for the Environment, through the technical assistance of your staff.

      Your staff has requested that we keep an open communication line to them, and that they would assist, as able, to resolve the issues of concern.

      To date, three reports from Water care Services, NIWA and Public Health have validated the health concerns that affect our community living near truck routes, and with that information, we were hopeful that local and regional councils would resolve the issues surrounding public health by supporting a reasonable list of early mitigation measures, such as:

      1. speed reduction to kph on Highway 50 as it passes through west Cities residential suburbs.

      2. smooth road surfacing to reduce tyre particulate pollution.

      3. barriers and dense vegetation to contain and absorb traffic pollution
      4. return road freight to rail through Napier to the port.

      We held a series of meetings with our local City and Regional councils, which resulted in the regional officers agreeing to put the matter before Council, in a bid to have those measures supported.

      A press release from the Council came out on 25/2/03, supporting in principle our request for reasonable mitigation.

      We had the support also of our Regional Chairman, and a Councillor, previously involved in health issues in central government.

      Unfortunately, the following day in council, a majority voted against supporting those measures, which quite honestly left us gutted.

      After other meetings with our City Council Mayor, the Mayor did agree to write a letter to The road controlling Authority (then in 2003) Transit NZ supporting a speed reduction to 70kph.

      Our Regional Council did admit the planning was questionable before the road was re designated as a ‘Truck Route.’

      Quote; “the problem has arisen because prior to the expressway’s construction, the local council allowed residential developments to abut the proposed road.
      The decision was unwise and was made when environmental concerns were not as strong and awareness of the possible consequences much lower, a council report by environmental manager, Murray Buchanan states.”

      “the community properties, by an act of past planning, are closely adjacent and many are well below the expressway level. This is a unique situation in the district, and because of the elevation of the expressway, noise travels over a wider area.”

      Those admissions clearly suggest that both councils should now be actively supporting further mitigation measures to protect those residents, but very little is really being achieved, which now places us in a position to legally challenge their lack of providing a safe environment, and all the other issues raised in that letter by our legal counsel 1/4/02, if the situation is not resolved in the next few months prior to completion of the over bridge and State Highway extension

      Important to note is that two of the mitigation measures, 70kph speed and smooth road surface, changes to planning have to be instituted ahead of the completion of that road upgrade, or else it would be cost prohibitive to promote later.

      Therefore, we would request that you allow us this remaining time to seek further support prior to instigation of legal proceedings, noting that it is highly likely that this route may be required if councils do not offer adequate mitigation for the health and well-being of our community.

      We hope that this further information to you addresses paragraph 3 of your letter dated 11/2/03. We are very sincere in our desire to resolve these health issues in any means available to us and support for environmental legal assistance, should it finally be required, is vital as a means to protect the health and well being of our community.

      The current truck ‘movement’ counts for every 24hrs on the Napier south end of the HB Expressway is now on 3rd March 2018 is at a whopping 2489 trucks every day average when in 2001 we measured 997 every day.

      Thank you very much for your consideration,
      Yours truly,

    • Exkiwiforces 9.3
      4 March 2018 at 2:02 pm

      My understanding is that the MPI put a movement ban on farmers moving their cattle from one farm to the next one when Mycoplasma Bovis was first detected on NZ farms?

      So why hasn’t MPI enforced the movement ban on those farmers who broke the rules?

      What was the last Government doing about the Mycoplasma Bovis outbreak as it happen on their watch?

      Was this Mycoplasma Bovis outbreak due to the running down of the MAF/ MPI by the last Government?

      Why hasn’t NZ MPI producers taken out insurance to protect themselves against such outbreaks etc?

      Why hasn’t the Trucking industry brought in self contained stock trucks which stop stock urine and shit from being spray all over the place. They have these truck in Oz why not in NZ?

      • patricia bremner 9.3.1
        4 March 2018 at 2:23 pm

        These are sensible serious questions. Perhaps they should be sent to the Ministers of Health/Transport/ Agriculture, as well?

      • Tamati Tautuhi 9.3.2
        4 March 2018 at 6:51 pm

        Why weren’t the cattle destroyed straight away, that is what you do with a foot & mouth disease outbreak ?

        If farmers have broken the law they should be prosecuted and heavily fined, or put out of business. If there is a nationwide outbreak it will damage the industry and will cost the country and the taxpayers big time $.

        This is actually a serious situation and MPI can not be seen to be incompetent ?

        • Exkiwiforces 9.3.2.1
          4 March 2018 at 9:40 pm

          I don’t think Mycoplasma is bad as Foot and Mouth as it can’t get into the food chain. But in saying that the farmers should’ve us their common sense and obey the MAF/ MPI movement ban then we would’ve this shit fight of mess that NZ is facing ATM which is no thanks to these dumb asses who thought they knew better than the boffins within MAF/MPI.
          It really makes my blood boil that these people can be so dumb, stupid and then expect the Government to give them a payout!!!!!

          Also 99% of this shit fight happen under the National Government and what were they doing about it? Easy answer asleep at the wheel as usual and let the market short it out F ing dickheads.

  10. greywarshark 10
    4 March 2018 at 11:18 am

    Actresses are very brave to stand up and demand to be heard about sexual bullying and worse. Barbara Ewing interviewed this morning by Wallace Chapman wrote a book called The Actresses, being made into a film I think. It tells the stories of how the profession treats women and the way they cope. She is a NZ actress and author working from London who learned Te Reo decades before we got enthused.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018634587/barbara-ewing-why-her-novel-the-actresses-still-hits-home
    author interview books
    9:36 am today
    Barbara Ewing: Why her novel The Actresses still hits home
    From Sunday Morning, 9:36 am today
    Listen duration 22′ :23″

    Barbara Ewing’s book The Actresses was first published in 1997 and is the story of a group of actresses reuniting at their London drama school 30 years after they graduated. It explores how women are treated in the industry and reveals a toxic culture – 21 years before the current light was shone on similar behaviour through the #MeToo movement. Ewing was also an actress and her experience carried a lot of truth into the fictional work. Since then she’s written many books, but explains why The Actresses is still important.

  11. greywarshark 11
    4 March 2018 at 12:17 pm

    I seem to be dominating the Open Mike so far but all these things are really interesting and meaningful to us and about people’s concerns so am just giving a heads-up on them so they don’t get missed.

    The NZ Institute has made some interesting statements relating to NCEA. I heard a report on Radionz News but can’t find an individual heading and haven’t time to listen through the mass of news.
    https://nzinitiative.org.nz/reports-and-media/reports/spoiled-by-choice-how-ncea-hampers-education-and-what-it-needs-to-succeed/

    Here are headings from google about NZ Institute release and their findings and thoughts.
    (Keywords – news report on NZ Initiative on NCEA)

    Business thinktank: ‘External exams needed in NCEA to … – NZ Herald
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz › New Zealand

    NCEA debate: How can physics and tramping be valued equally? – NZ …
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz › New Zealand

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/101824114/ncea-is-damaging-kids-learning-and-breaking-teachers-thinktank-report-finds

    https://www.newsie.co.nz/news/84398-ncea-failing-disadvantaged-students-report.html

    NCEA an ‘alluring facade’ – Newsroom
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/03/03/93585/ncea-an-alluring-facade

    Further from Scoop:
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1803/S00030/have-your-say-on-the-education-amendment-bill.htm
    You have until Friday 13 April 2018 to have your say on the Education (National Education and Learning Priorities) Amendment Bill. The Education and Workforce Committee is now inviting submissions on this bill.

    The bill would amend the Education Act 1989 to enable statements about the diversity of education provision to be included in the statement of National Education and Learning Priorities.
    The proposed amendments would align the statement of National Education and Learning Priorities more closely with the New Zealand curriculum, and provide an aspirational vision for the future for young New Zealanders.

    2/3/18 http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1803/S00020/savecharterschools-submissions-open-over-2500-sign.htm
    You might hate how National set them up, and despite Seymour and ACT equally, but there is good in the well-run concept of schools for those who don’t fit into the mainstream, and perhaps we could get back some for special needs children too that government has stepped on heavily in past years so they can have their own place. Charter schools should be able to form relationships with mainstream and fund places for some children to attnd specialist classes elsewhere, and this would be good for special schools advancing their pupils’ particular talents.

    Radionz path to education matters if you want to update your general info:
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/search/results?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=education&commit=Search

    • veutoviper 11.1
      4 March 2018 at 12:21 pm

      I sent you some reading on NZ aid to the Pacific which we discussed yesterday on OM.

      Here is the link to my comment. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-03-2018/#comment-1456717

    • Incognito 11.2
      4 March 2018 at 12:38 pm

      Nah, that’s not domination; domination is when you crowd out others and their opinions, which you don’t. So, keep them coming. Remember that a few bans were dished out recently too so the place is maybe a wee bit quieter than usual …

    • Molly 11.3
      4 March 2018 at 8:42 pm

      Children who don’t fit into the mainstream need to be funded and supported in their own community, at their local school. Education policy should reflect this.

      The flexibility supposedly only required for high-needs children, should be demanded for all students. This is important for education.

    • Molly 11.4
      4 March 2018 at 8:57 pm

      Hi again greywarshark,

      Just had a quick google to check out one of the articles on the Herald which I noted you had on one of your links.

      The “experience day tramps” unit actually is a time consuming standard.

      Also, it is a unit standard and not an achievement standard, which means that if you are looking for entry into tertiary education then it will not be weighted the same.

      The student in the article should know this, and by not putting in these details, it gives a false view of the situation.

      The ex principal in one of the other articles is misdirecting on this issue as well. And the PISA results might be an effect of primary children who have been subjected to National Standards. Who knows?

      Also, her insistent on exams is old-school and not reflective of understanding or competence.I believe examination taking is a skill over and above the level of knowledge of any particular subject, and many who fail exams often know the work, but cannot retrieve it in those situations.

      • greywarshark 11.4.1
        4 March 2018 at 9:23 pm

        Hi Molly
        I will read that with your comments in mind about the tramps.

        About exams – they do provide a separation from school control over assessment. Perhaps a half-year test to see how they go and prepare them for the matter, along with regular short tests and assessments so that the pupil’s knowledge level is exposed? Anything that the NZ Initiative thinks is a good idea must be viewed cautiously and they seem very strong on exams. The present assessments are too demanding for teachers. There is no need for atomic science to order teachers’ checks and so parents know to the nth degree of skill.

        I was amazed when I thought I heard that parents were having to pay a fee if they wanted their children to have extra time to do their exams now. They would have to pay for a medical certificate stating why of course. But this imposition on parents with children having difficulties of some sort should not be countenanced by fair and supportive education establishment. Exams shouldn’t be a brick wall for some children.

        • Molly 11.4.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 9:34 pm

          MacLeans college used to have a good system for children with needs for reader-writer assistance. And the reputation they developed for that assistance, resulted in many students enrolling in that school.

          Unfortunately, the NZQA was sceptical of the high number of students requiring that help at exams and gave the school a hard time about whether all these students were legitimate. I can’t recall the end result, but I do remember this occurring. It would be disappointing if that extra fee was a result of this situation.

          I’m good at exams, mainly because I have the skill that allows me to read – even badly written exams – and know what it is that the examiner is looking for. This does not necessarily mean that the knowledge I have at that time is permanent and able to be used in workable form.

          Internal assessments require that proof, and for students who just want to cram and exam, they are a pain.

          But I do believe that they are a better indicator of comprehension and application of knowledge.

          • greywarshark 11.4.1.1.1
            5 March 2018 at 6:24 pm

            Moly
            Too much responsibility on the teachers to being do assessments all the time. And with this evil-minded, sucpicious, government and its neolib background, the conditions and demands that teachers must comply with, with the way they are rated hanging in the balance (and with the idea of performance pay hanging like a Damocles sword) I hear that teachers have to fudge some times. The problem is the old one that is described in that saying that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Just looked up my teacher Google and it says that’s been around since the 1500s.

            And petit peu French. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose (1849)!

  12. Anne 12
    4 March 2018 at 12:22 pm

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-says-language-police-upset-comments-jacinda-arderns-appearance-have-gone-too-far?auto=5744520985001

    Peters tells it like it is. Thank goodness.

    What an uproar over nothing. Jacinda Ardern wasn’t offended, I wasn’t offended. Most people I suspect were not offended. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs when you can’t describe anyone as “attractive” without being labeled sexist. In my view, a lovely word trashed by a small bunch of vociferous individuals – and no, I don’t know who they were because I don’t bother reading that kind of silly stuff.

    • greywarshark 12.1
      4 March 2018 at 12:57 pm

      The continuing theme for describing female politicians is to remark on their appearance as if that is the most important thing to know about them.

      It’s only okay with the Queen’s description as far as I’m concerned – traditional with Royal commenters. ‘And Her Majesty has changed her well-known hair style to one combed to the side which is very appealing under her daffodil coloured hat with the narrow brim, which she adopts so that the public can see her face’ etc.

      I think that it is sort of patronising that a woman is only worth talking to if she is fashionable and attractive. Men are generally not given this sort of attention.
      But when they choose to be different, they can it’s true get a notation, as Slavoj Zizek was recently. One journalist found his appearance and manner below par. (He wears a t-shirt quite often and rubs his nose all the time – terribly eccentric from some journalists point of view, the arbiters of everything!)

    • veutoviper 12.2
      4 March 2018 at 2:11 pm

      Agreed Anne. I actually really enjoy watching JA and WP in Question Time. They really are a good tag team! Minds very much on a similar plane.

      I think WP is really enjoying working with JA and vice versa, despite the age and political differences. A feeling of mutual respect.

    • patricia bremner 12.3
      4 March 2018 at 2:38 pm

      Those journalist comments are designed to detract from serious subjects, but Jacinda is deft at deflection. Another attractive aspect of our P.M. She is grounded.

  13. Pete George 13
    4 March 2018 at 12:53 pm

    Check your privilege

    Privilege: Unearned access to social power based on membership in a dominant social group

    _ Able-bodied physically and mentally

    _ Access to education

    _ Christian

    _ Cisgender

    _ Heterosexual

    _ Male

    _ Native English speaker

    _ New Zealand Citizen (at birth)

    _ White

    Becoming Aware of Privilege should not be viewed as a burden or source of guilt, but rather an opportunity to learn and be responsible so that we may work toward a more just and inclusive world.

    (Adapted from OUIT)

  14. james 14
    4 March 2018 at 1:57 pm

    Spent the afternoon down the Viaduct with the celebrations of the Volvo around the world race.

    Great vibe, amazing setup and neat to see so many families out and about.

    Hoping that the Americas cup will be more of the same – but bigger!

    It would be an amazing event if ‘we’ get it right.

    Recommendation – There is an oyster festival going on down there at the moment – if you like bluff oysters its a must do!!!!

    edit – here is the flyer: http://www.eurobar.co.nz/application/files/4315/1840/1468/OysterFest_2018_A3_Flyer_WEB_FA1.pdf

    • Ad 14.1
      4 March 2018 at 3:35 pm

      Cheers for the link James.

      We usually do a session or two of the Bluff Oysters when they are in.

      On the Americas Cup, the construction industry is looking forward to the moment when the client gets its shit together and has a single plan. That single plan then has to be consented, costed, and constructed in time for the Louis Vuitton Cup series not much more than 18 moths away. It’s going to be tight.

      • james 14.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 5:31 pm

        Indeed it is – not just the Client tho’ – Auckland Council and the Government have to get their shit set up also.

        • Ad 14.1.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 5:39 pm

          The client is the Auckland Council. They are paying for the bases.
          Central government has big inputs. But no cash so far.
          Follow the money 🙂

          Emirates Team New Zealand/NZYS are a kind of specifier, with a major timing problem.

          The client needs to stabilize this fast, to stop ETNZ taking the Cup to Dubai, which their key sponsor would be just fine with.

          • Molly 14.1.1.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 8:39 pm

            “The client needs to stabilize this fast, to stop ETNZ taking the Cup to Dubai, which their key sponsor would be just fine with.
            Me too.

    • Robert Guyton 14.2
      4 March 2018 at 4:55 pm

      Sluuuuuuuurp!
      Rip them from their salty beds, prise them open with a knife, tip ’em down ya froat!
      “Sluruuuuuuuuuuuuuurp!
      Caligula would be proud!

      • Stunned Mullet 14.2.1
        4 March 2018 at 7:13 pm

        Because enjoying a few oysters = approval of ancient mad dictator…

        Truly James is the devil.

      • Ad 14.2.2
        4 March 2018 at 7:58 pm

        Riverton already is, and has been for over 150 years.

    • Grey Area 14.3
      4 March 2018 at 6:37 pm

      Bring back Ed I say.

    • Molly 14.4
      4 March 2018 at 7:59 pm

      If I was the type to enjoy watching someone else racing in someone else’s yachts, and then pay over the top for kai moana most of us had access to in my childhood, I guess I would understand your enjoyment.

      As it is, this scenario appeals to me as much as the TPPA rally appealed to you. Find it a bit jarring to read on TS TBH.

      • Grey Area 14.4.1
        4 March 2018 at 8:13 pm

        Seems that’s how it is at the moment Molly. James just trolls along.

      • One Two 14.4.2
        4 March 2018 at 9:43 pm

        Agree with you about the AC, Molly…Let Dubai host it…

        Then the event can’t be used as a cloak to cover the myriad of crises going on within NZ…

  15. greywarshark 15
    4 March 2018 at 2:20 pm

    Good anecdotal piece from Radionz on youth employment and how it can be forstered and needs to be and is wanted by youth! Lry’s not forget that.

    Think that even robbing dairies requires work, planning and organisation. This should be going into something positive for the country and for themselves. An intelligent government of the 21st century has a lot of history study research and experience to fall back on to prevent crime. Young people feeling lost and impoverished in monetary and spiritual terms, found useless, a waste of space, and abused, and they haven’t even had the chance to start their lives! It’s disgraceful neglect by governments not to have decent effectual polices for them.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018634437/insight-no-job-no-training-no-hope
    So this is good stuff. One example of positive moves:

    One young man:
    He earns a good wage, has opportunities for career progression, and has zero debt to his name.
    It’s worlds away from the uncertainty and indecision that plagued the end of his high school education.

    Mr Kirk repeated seventh form at Mana College, uncertain about what he wanted to do with his life.
    One day, he was approached by a teacher who asked if he was keen to take part in a work experience programme run by Downer, a programme that would allow him to do some paid work experience with the company in the school holidays.
    If he impressed, he would have the option to take up full-time work.

    Mr Kirk said it was a reality check from day one.
    “On my first day on site I was just sweeping up a bit of rubbish, but I couldn’t even use the broom properly. I was a bit embarrassed, but you’ve got to learn some day.
    “It was pretty daunting, but once you get to know the people it’s way easier. They help you a lot more when you’re comfortable with them.”

    After just a year of full-time work, Mr Kirk now has his forklift driver’s licence and is talking with his bosses about studying to become a foreman.

    The bill for that – as with the forklift licence – is borne by his employer, which gets a home-trained, loyal worker in exchange.
    Downer first began the programme about seven years ago, and recently joined forces with Partners Porirua to head into local high schools to invite 16 and 17-year-olds who don’t know exactly what they want to do with their lives to take part.

    (This type of training should be supported and encouraged by government not just left up to business at their whim.)

    Another man still hoping to get started at 24 years, who is statistically classified as – ‘NEET’ or someone who’s Not in Employment, Education or Training.

    Apart from a few brief stints on a relative’s farm, he has been unemployed for the best part of a decade.
    And it all started, he says, in his first year of high school.
    “The second term I stopped going,” he says.
    “At the time I’d seen my friends not going to school. Hanging out and that. I was like, oh, I want to be like that. I don’t want to sit in class.
    “I found out the hard way that sitting in class was the place to be.”

    As of February, there are more than 80,000 young NEETs in New Zealand – a seven percent increase on last year. It’s estimated each NEET costs the economy about $20,000 in lost productivity and benefits – meaning this group of young people costs more than a billion dollars every year.

    (And that’s just money, the big loss is in loss of self-image, self-belief, expectation of respect from society that goes on all through life for oneself and those you connect with. We all should play our part in avoiding that with practical and considered help to all.)

  16. patricia bremner 16
    4 March 2018 at 3:09 pm

    When I was talking futures with young people, we would list skills a school leaver needed to be employed in further education or contributing through environmental and social programmes.

    As we were talking in the third person, they would freely offer up ideas. They listed skills and attributes needed in all of those areas. We would list them in most important to least important.

    Finally, we would look at the first 10. These became a self improvement blue print.
    Years later I would meet with students who would say, ” I’m still using the blue print
    to build my skills and attributes Mrs.B” That was a buzz. Number 1 was communication skills.

    To me that was real education, not the sad tick box stuff often offered now. So I’m pleased it is all being reviewed.

    • Incognito 16.1
      4 March 2018 at 3:19 pm

      Being a good communicator and being a life-long learner have a few things in common IMO: curiosity and open mind and the realisation that the meaning or purpose of life is not a fixed goal you set for yourself, or set for you by others, but it is the journey or process of life itself – a self-referencing framework, if you like.

  17. joe90 17
    4 March 2018 at 3:29 pm

    Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.

    The President of the United States on the unelected leader of authoritarian China: “He's now president for life. President for life. And he's great," Trump said. "And look, he was able to do that. I think it's great. Maybe we'll give that a shot some day." https://t.co/Pqb7iOKiWo— Jim Sciutto (@jimsciutto) March 4, 2018

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/03/politics/trump-maralago-remarks/index.html

  18. Carolyn_Nth 18
    4 March 2018 at 3:50 pm

    Went to the anti-TPPA-11 rally in Aotea Square Auckland this arvo.
    The message is,
    sign the Don’t Do it petition – they want 5,000 signatures by the day of signing the TPPA (8 March) – they have over 4,000 now

    there are more similar agreements in the pipeline (RCP with Asian countries; the re-working of the China FTA; the deal with the EU; one with Sth and central American countries)

    submit to the NZ select committee after the agreement is signed in Chile on March 8 – when some of the contents will be published – say “no” to re-activating the clauses put on hold – the US will try to revive them

    say “no” to ISDS clauses in any future agreements

    there is no protection against being sued by corporates for climate change measures; Treaty-related legislation; legislation for better workers’ rights; health care legislation, etc, etc

    Robert Reid was MC in Aotea Square; speakers included Byran Bruce; Laila Harre; a nurse who works with young people; Moana Maniapoto (who also sang); Jane Kelsey.

    I estimate there were around 300+ people there.

    I also recall going to some anti-TPPA demos in Auckland in recent years where the turnout was small. the big demo came in more recent years.

    We are in a re-grouping phase. Kelsey praised us for what has been achieved – delaying the TPPA for several years, for example, and the big demos. The message to us was to continue to hold the line

    • Cricklewood 18.1
      4 March 2018 at 5:32 pm

      Labour only opposed because it was politically expediant and there opposition no doubt helped protestor numbers… fact they always believed in the tppa or whatever its called now hence signing up…
      Nothing new really dunno why the greens dont get more left votes tbh they mean what the say and say what they mean…

      • Carolyn_Nth 18.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 5:40 pm

        Apparently some recent research shows 75% of respondents want an indepth analysis of TPPA-11. Poll done funded by Action Station, conducted by UMR, and published last Wednesday.

        A new poll shows that 75% of New Zealanders want independent analysis on the revised TPPA agreement before the government signs it.

        Over 50% always opposed the TPPA. I think many will have bought Labour-NZ First’s line that the current deal has been improved. But still a lot of people are uncertain and want an in-depth analysis made public.

    • Ad 18.2
      4 March 2018 at 7:57 pm

      Was there any commentary there about President Trump raising steel and aluminum tariffs and the effects that could have on New Zealand steel and aluminum workers?

      • Molly 18.2.1
        4 March 2018 at 8:09 pm

        Taking one issue and spinning it to make the concerns about the revised TPPA seem irrelevant, is a bit irritating to read. The first thought I had this morning on reading your post was “Where do you start?”.

        If you are unable to take in the whole view, then all discussions are going to be on surmised scenarios presented in such a way to support your pro-TPPA view. And you have provided the framework in which that discussion happens, and limited the effect it has on issues of sovereignty, health care, human rights for workers in ALL participating countries, and the ability of our government to make good legislative change in regards to environment, NZers health and wellbeing, and as an effective response to the impact of climate change.

        Despite my partner working in the steel industry for over decades and having an understanding of how much produced is sold overseas, I don’t feel like entering this discussion with you, because I feel it will be pointless.

        The tariff issue is one that needs to be discussed alongside the other issues. It’s a minor concern, to me really. If we are talking about sustainability, then why are we importing steel that can be produced locally, and then complaining about someone else deciding to make the opposite choice?

        • Ad 18.2.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 8:58 pm

          I’ll take that as a No.

          Thought not.

          About time some of the logical ends were met.

          We import steel into New Zealand according to the kind, quality, volume, and price of steel that we need for the job. Sustainability is in there as an evaluative element in procurement, but only one element.

          That is why we import steel. Most of the time local Glenbrook Bluescope does not meet the needs for those criteria. Sometimes it does. But then, as someone with a partner in the steel industry, you already knew that.

          • Molly 18.2.1.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 9:12 pm

            We import steel because we think that price is lower and that is the only criteria for purchase.

            Not because we believe the quality is better, or that we think Chinese ore and steel workers are treated well. We also don’t consider the impact of transport is worth our time in regards to climate change, because at the moment we don’t have to pay for that impact. It is an externality.

            We also import steel because our concern for our steel workers jobs is only when overseas customers might find another supplier, not when we do.

            There is a raft of problems in the way we are doing business. Thinking that successful business is always selling high and paying low is wasting our resources, both natural and human.

            “But then, as someone with a partner in the steel industry, you already knew that.”
            I know that what you have written is incorrect. Because the steel used to replace the failed imported steel was produced by then Pacific Steel, and always could have been.

            I also know, that what I consider valuable and “good” business, is poles apart from what you do. And that is a long discussion for another day.

      • Carolyn_Nth 18.2.2
        4 March 2018 at 8:10 pm

        Not that I recall. Laila Harre is researching workers’ issues and trade agreements as I recall.

    • Molly 18.3
      4 March 2018 at 8:01 pm

      Hi Carolyn_Nth, we’ll have to set up a Standardista signal. Would have been good to put a face to one of the names I enjoy reading on TS.

      Good summary of what was said. Really enjoyed the speakers today.

      • Carolyn_Nth 18.3.1
        4 March 2018 at 8:15 pm

        😎

        I was in sunnies. So… incognito! 😂☺

        Thanks. Yes. It was good to experience others working to rebuild momentum.

    • Incognito 18.4
      4 March 2018 at 11:22 pm

      Thank you for the first-hand update. Are there any recordings of the event(s) online?

      It (still) feels like they’re trying to build the plane while flying it yet they claim all sorts of benefits to NZ and its economy to be more precise. However, even the claimed (projected?) benefits are trivial and uncertain while the price is even more uncertain. And let’s be clear that there is no free lunch.

  19. Stuart Munro 19
    4 March 2018 at 4:46 pm

    An interesting take on problems like PC pronouns and other matters of life and death.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/05/jordan-petersons-gospel-of-masculinity?mbid=social_facebook

    • Molly 19.1
      4 March 2018 at 8:38 pm

      Had a few interesting conversations with my son, who has friend enamoured with Jordan Peterson.

      A good article on the facts behind his appropriation of the C16 bill can be found on medium.com.

      And a telling video on his actual interaction with transgender people that is linked to in that article, can be found on youtube.

      • Stuart Munro 19.1.1
        4 March 2018 at 8:57 pm

        Interesting – the New Yorker piece was the first time I’ve come across him. I think he probably has some decent arguments – which is rare enough in academia to be worth a look.

        • Molly 19.1.1.1
          4 March 2018 at 9:06 pm

          From what I could bear to watch, he is a moving sedgway in his arguments, pulling analogy after analogy to prove his point – not just to explain it.

          I don’t have much time for him tbh. I can see his appeal for my son’s friend, whose acknowledgement of gender, race and class is very limited.

          • Carolyn_Nth 19.1.1.1.1
            4 March 2018 at 9:15 pm

            The use of the term SJW was an immediate turn-off for me. I’ve never fitted well into gender stereotypes, so I am glad to see them being weakened.

            I don’t get why someone would make such a big deal about how some other people prefer to be addressed – though I will rarely use “sir” for Peter Jackson or Shonkey.

            I read an interesting thread on twitter today – about how videos tend to encourage emotive engagement rather than logical critique – it was with specific reference to conspiracy theories and about how some people think everyone will be swayed by a video which uses image and audio rather than develop an argument.

            I think this happens a lot with many topics these days. I prefer to read an argument – and to be entertained by audio-visual media.

            • adam 19.1.1.1.1.1
              4 March 2018 at 9:42 pm

              But are you being entertained, or propagandise at, all the same?

              Good audio-visual entertainment does directly affect you, as all well crafted story telling should.

              There is a reason it’s called soft power…

          • Stuart Munro 19.1.1.1.2
            4 March 2018 at 9:22 pm

            I think I have an inkling where he’s coming from, but I’d have to read some of his stuff before I’m game to attempt a paraphrase.

            • Molly 19.1.1.1.2.1
              4 March 2018 at 9:27 pm

              …. or watch the hundreds of hours of videos he recommends to his detractors…. 🙂

              As one of the people in the video says, why should I waste so much of my time to do that when you could explain it right now?

              • Stuart Munro …
                4 March 2018 at 9:36 pm

                Yeah – watching video isn’t how I look at arguments – We can read between six and ten times as fast. They’re for true believers I guess – though I imagine there’d be the odd decent debate topic somewhere in there.

                • Molly …
                  4 March 2018 at 9:40 pm

                  His book is currently in the shops if you want to fork out $40 +. Had a quick flick through while waiting for someone at Paperplus, and it doesn’t read well to me. Would be interested to hear what you thought, if you did read it.

        • Psycho Milt 19.1.1.2
          4 March 2018 at 10:05 pm

          I think he probably has some decent arguments – which is rare enough in academia to be worth a look.

          He does. Unfortunately, he’s a conservative so he’s putting that skill at argument to work for conservative politics. Even more unfortunately, his opponents are often people who confuse feeling very strongly about something with having a compelling argument, eg in the video above, which means he mops the floor with them. Yet more unfortunately, he’d probably still be a relatively-unknown academic if Canada hadn’t tried to criminalise speech.

          • Molly 19.1.1.2.1
            4 March 2018 at 10:37 pm

            ” Even more unfortunately, his opponents are often people who confuse feeling very strongly about something with having a compelling argument, eg in the video above, which means he mops the floor with them. “
            I don’t think he does. He seems spectacularly unable to provide reasonable arguments – so it is a perspective issue I guess.

            “Yet more unfortunately, he’d probably still be a relatively-unknown academic if Canada hadn’t tried to criminalise speech.”
            They didn’t. He just interpreted the law change in that way. Worth having a look at the article I linked to above, and the actual bill change.

            • Psycho Milt 19.1.1.2.1.1
              5 March 2018 at 6:37 am

              The article you linked to is a piece of weaselry based on ignoring the inclusion of “gender expression” as well as “gender identity” in the bill. However, it does helpfully link to this article, which supposedly “debunks” Peterson’s claim by pointing out that yes, not using words you don’t want to use would be actionable in the courts, but would be unlikely to be a criminal matter and anyway we can trust the authorities not to take action against people for such trivial things. In other words, more weaselry.

              • Molly …
                5 March 2018 at 7:58 am

                The article does drift off occasionally, but also includes links to pertinent information, such as the C-16 bill, and the parliamentary discussion of the same.

                The link to the C-16 bill itself shows the the term “gender identity or expression” is what is added to the legislation in terms of adding a category to what constitutes a hate crime.

                Peterson adds surmised application of Ontario Human Rights legislation to propose a situation where someone – most particularly himself – may be prosecuted for not using someone’s preferred pronouns.

                I tried to look up prosecutions in Canada under both C-16 and the Human Rights Act, but couldn’t find an official source easily. Perhaps if you are interested in how the laws are applied, you can.

                Note”: “Gender expression” is a human experience that some seem to take heated offence to, and needs to be included as a discriminatory category. There are those who will dismiss the rights of people purely on their “gender expression”. Violence is often associated with that disregard.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  5 March 2018 at 9:00 am

                  Peterson adds surmised application of Ontario Human Rights legislation to propose a situation where someone – most particularly himself – may be prosecuted for not using someone’s preferred pronouns.

                  A not-unreasonable surmise, given his opponent Crossman’s statement in this description of the legislation: “In other words, pronoun misuse may become actionable, though the Human Rights Tribunals and courts.”

                  “Gender expression” is a human experience that some seem to take heated offence to, and needs to be included as a discriminatory category.

                  Sure. But if you combine it with laws criminalising speech you’ve got something highly objectionable, in which case it’s unsurprising if people object.

                  • Molly …
                    5 March 2018 at 9:40 am

                    Considering Crossman as an “opponent” to him, rather than someone who disagrees with his premise, is the kind of extension to argument that is flawed.

                    We have legislation and bylaws in NZ that prohibit a number of situations that will never be prosecuted in court, because the threshold is too high.

                    It might be of worth for you to read the submission to Bill C-16 by the Canadian Bar Association, who actually have practising human rights lawyers contributing to the discussion:

                    C-16 Will Not Impede Freedom of Expression
                    Recently, the debate has turned to whether the amendments will force individuals to embrace concepts, even use pronouns, which they find objectionable. This is a misunderstanding of human rights and hate crimes legislation.

                    They go into more detail on Page 3, but too much to cut and paste here.

                    Still can’t find any hate crime prosecution for the Canadian courts that give an indication that prosecution for the non or misuse of gender pronouns will be a result. Have you had any luck?

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 9:59 am

                      Yes, we have plenty of bad legislation in this country, too. That’s not a recommendation.

                      Still can’t find any hate crime prosecution for the Canadian courts that give an indication that prosecution for the non or misuse of gender pronouns will be a result. Have you had any luck?

                      I wouldn’t trouble myself to look, because it’s irrelevant. Legislation that only fails to breach your human rights as long as the authorities have the good will not to prosecute is wrong in principle, and rights “protections” that rely on authorities not taking advantage of the power they’ve been given are no protection at all, just wishful thinking.

                    • Molly …
                      5 March 2018 at 11:15 am

                      “I wouldn’t trouble myself to look, because it’s irrelevant. “
                      It’s not irrelevant. If the submission by lawyers fails to give you pause for thought, then a lack of prosecutions for similar crimes under this legislation would be the next course of action.

                      As it is you are basing your perspective on emotive “surmises” from a psychology professor.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 11:55 am

                      If the government were to pass a law that would allow people to be prosecuted for failing to use the word “whom” correctly, the subsequent complete lack of prosecutions of offenders would not make that law any less of an affront to the right to freedom of speech and expression. The same applies in this case. Prosecutions or the lack of them are irrelevant to the principle at stake.

                      “In other words, pronoun misuse may become actionable, through the Human Rights Tribunals and courts.” That isn’t the surmises of a psychology professor, it’s the submission of a lawyer.

                      As to the merits or otherwise of the Canadian Bar Association’s claims, case law has demonstrated that Canada’s hate speech laws do result in prosecutions for the expression of opinion, so their claims about this extension of the law should be taken with a grain of salt. I expect it is great for lawyers – lots of media coverage and lots of billable hours in those cases – but it’s certainly not great for anyone who values human rights.

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 12:13 pm

                      The court struck down the part of the legislation that includes speech that “ridicules, belittles or otherwise affronts the dignity” of a person or class of persons. The court found those words are not rationally connected to the objective of protecting people from hate speech.

                      The court left in place the ban on speech that exposes, or tends to expose, persons or groups to hatred.

                      So the Canadian Supreme Court has already defined the bounds of when something is hate speech, and it’s (rightfully) a pretty high threshold.

                      However, I’d also say that any university educator who intentionally belittles their students probably deserves some formal employment discipline.

                    • Molly …
                      5 March 2018 at 12:37 pm

                      Your link outlines several cases where the threshold is quite high, and nothing comparable to the misuse of language scenario that Peterson outlines.

                      Do you think that pre C-16 amendment someone would have been prosecuted in Canada for referring to an imam as “Father” or “Pastor”? That would be a form of address that deliberately ignores someone’s chosen religious beliefs.

                      That is how specious Peterson’s interpretation is.

                      (Not to mention his views on women and sexuality, which may be responsible for such emphatic burblings)

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 1:01 pm

                      Your link outlines several cases where the threshold is quite high, and nothing comparable to the misuse of language scenario that Peterson outlines.

                      My link outlines several cases where people were prosecuted for expression of opinion, despite lawyers’ and legislators’ earlier claims that hate speech laws wouldn’t criminalise the expression of opinion. Peterson is right to assume the claims of harmlessness about this extension of the law are just as worthless.

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    5 March 2018 at 1:05 pm

                    However, I’d also say that any university educator who intentionally belittles their students probably deserves some formal employment discipline.

                    Disliking the government trying to compel speech from you is not “intentionally belittling your students.”

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 1:13 pm

                      Publicly detesting their choice of pronoun most certainly is. Just as intentionally mispronouncing their names is belittling.

                      And given that belittling is not illegal, the government isn’t the one trying to compel speech. The role that the educator chose compels the educator to behave respectfully to students. If the educator refuses to do that aspect of their job, that’s not the government’s fault. Same as how I’d get a talking to if I ripped shit out of particularly annoying clients right to their face.

                    • Baba Yaga …
                      5 March 2018 at 1:42 pm

                      “The role that the educator chose compels the educator to behave respectfully to students.”
                      That does not include pandering to their every whim.

                      “If the educator refuses to do that aspect of their job, that’s not the government’s fault. ”
                      In Peterson’s case, the educator is being asked to use pronouns that are nothing more than a silly construct.

                      Peterson is a hero standing up to this nonsense…more power to him.

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 1:48 pm

                      Oh, you’re back. Did your hornet handle get banned lol

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 3:07 pm

                      Publicly detesting their choice of pronoun most certainly is.

                      Nope. If I say here, publicly, the pronouns zi and zur are moronic insults to the English language and my intelligence, I haven’t belittled anybody, I’ve just stated my opinion. If, subsequently, I get a customer asking me to refer to them with those pronouns, I wouldn’t voice that opinion to them because it’s not my place to do so. I might well refuse to comply with their request on the basis that I prefer to speak English, but that’s not belittling them.

                      In short, the question of whether Peterson belittles his students or not is a matter of how he treats his students, not a matter of personal opinions he might hold. I haven’t seen anything to suggest he belittles his students.

                      Also worth pointing out: these days, the issue of academic staff being bullied by students is as significant as the reverse. There are plenty of horror stories at my university, and my sister was nearly driven to quit her academic job in the States by the emails she kept getting from students with plenty of opinions to share about her competence, intelligence, teaching style and personality. I doubt Peterson’s ever come up with anything even approaching the personal abuse these spoilt brats can dish out. Looking at that video above, I don’t see an academic bullying and belittling his students, but I do see an arsehole and her friends deliberately antagonising someone because they don’t like his opinions.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 3:09 pm

                      Peterson is a hero standing up to this nonsense…

                      OK, let me just distance myself from that one in case people reading this think I might hold a similar view. Heroes are for dumb cunts.

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 4:10 pm

                      Haven’t watched the video, but yeah I know the sort of students you mean.

                      And frankly, the pronoun thing is belittling, regardless. This is something intrinsic to an individual’s identity. I’m no brilliant person at keeping up with these things, but I try. It’s no skin off my nose what somebody wants to be called, be it gender-fluid pronoun or Ali vs Clay. It is, however, important to them. If I respect them, I can try to refer to them in their preferred way. If I don’t respect them, I can think of better ways to call them a fuckwit.

                      But additionally, you’re not in a position to grade the student who read or watched you express your opinion of how they exist in society.

                    • Molly …
                      5 March 2018 at 4:27 pm

                      Agree with McFlock here. He vacillates from requests from students to use the terms “they” and “them” by saying he doesn’t believe they were in use previously. Then he says it depends on who is asking him. Then he changes it to whether they have asked him respectfully enough.

                      One student says something along the lines of ‘A given name, is one that is chosen and/or made up by parents/a person. Would you refuse to use that name to refer to a specific person?’

                      He does not answer because he has fallen into a logic trap of his own design. Of course he would. And to acknowledge otherwise, is to admit he will treat them differently because he does not want to recognise their right to gender self expression and identity.

                      This is not an issue of free speech. That is used as a vehicle to “belittle students” – as McFlock has pointed out numerous times.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 6:42 pm

                      And frankly, the pronoun thing is belittling, regardless. This is something intrinsic to an individual’s identity.

                      It’s seriously not. It’s the English language, not your identity. Feel free to play with English as much as you like, but it’s up to other people whether they want to participate or not.

                      It’s no skin off my nose what somebody wants to be called, be it gender-fluid pronoun or Ali vs Clay. It is, however, important to them.

                      And the English language is important to me. If you don’t like its pronouns, other languages are available. But this is a side, and trivial issue – whether or not an academic is willing to use words his students made up is between him and his students, and the university administration if it finds the media attention problematic for its branding. Peterson’s issue is with the government prescribing speech, and his concern’s a valid one.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 6:53 pm

                      He vacillates from requests from students to use the terms “they” and “them” by saying he doesn’t believe they were in use previously. Then he says it depends on who is asking him. Then he changes it to whether they have asked him respectfully enough.

                      So? Those are things he’s free to consider on a case-by-case basis and his opinion on them is as valid as anyone else’s. Your feelings about his opinions are irrelevant.

                      One student says something along the lines of ‘A given name, is one that is chosen and/or made up by parents/a person. Would you refuse to use that name to refer to a specific person?’

                      He does not answer because he has fallen into a logic trap of his own design.

                      I’d have been rendered speechless myself by such an astonishing level of irrationalism. Yes, personal names are specific to people and it’s embarrassing if you use the wrong one. Pronouns, on the other hand, exist so you can refer to people without having to know, remember or use their personal names. If you then have to know, remember and use the word they want you to use as a pronoun, the whole point of having pronouns just disappeared. That question didn’t spring a logical trap, it displayed a facepalm level of ignorance.

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 8:00 pm

                      It’s seriously not. It’s the English language, not your identity. Feel free to play with English as much as you like, but it’s up to other people whether they want to participate or not.

                      Yes. It’s up to other people to decide whether their desire to label the genitalia they will most likely never get to see or touch is more important to them than the labels designated by the actual owners of those genitals. Because that’s the shortcoming of the English language.

                      And Peterson’s concern is not valid, because your own link shows that merely being an obnoxious, discriminatory fool with an undue interest in labelling other people’s reproductive organs does not constitute “hate speech” by itself, even if it is belittling or ridiculing.

                      This doesn’t rest on anyone’s promise that prosecutions won’t happen, it rests on the Canadian Supreme Court having already determined the threshold for prosecutions.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      5 March 2018 at 9:23 pm

                      Yes. It’s up to other people to decide whether their desire to label the genitalia they will most likely never get to see or touch is more important to them than the labels designated by the actual owners of those genitals.

                      Whatevs. I’m sure that once the sexless utopia has arrived, in vivo gestation is a thing of the past and weka’s “Why gender equality matters” post is a quaint historical irrelevance, language might well reflect that new sexless nature of humanity. In the meantime, sex is the biggest difference between humans that there is and their languages tend to reflect that. Those who’d prefer to have the sexless utopia right now had best find an island or something.

                      This doesn’t rest on anyone’s promise that prosecutions won’t happen, it rests on the Canadian Supreme Court having already determined the threshold for prosecutions.

                      A legislative programme that rests on “Don’t worry, the Supreme Court’s said people can’t actually be prosecuted for this thing we just made illegal” is a shit programme.

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2018 at 9:56 pm

                      Knowing which gender-specific singular pronoun to use requires knowing as much about the “Alex” who sent you an email as you might assume about the hairdresser called “Jules” you’re providing customer feedback on.

                      But using the wrong pronoun isn’t high enough for prosecution, according to the CSC. However, if using “her” instead of “their” was the worst thing ever done to or said about a gender-fluid (or whatever) person, that would practically be utopia anyway.

                      If someone beats the shit out of someone else because of the vistim’s gender identity, that’s a hate crime according to the law peterson is worried about. But not if all they did was get anal about matching pronouns to genitals they will never see.

                    • Molly …
                      5 March 2018 at 10:37 pm

                      “Pronouns, on the other hand, exist so you can refer to people without having to know, remember or use their personal names. If you then have to know, remember and use the word they want you to use as a pronoun, the whole point of having pronouns just disappeared. That question didn’t spring a logical trap, it displayed a facepalm level of ignorance.”
                      No it didn’t. He said that despite it all, he would refuse to address a person in their company, by the pronoun they had chosen. Not a third person reference to someone that was not present.

                      This shows a decided lack of respect and humanity. And is a indication of his poor validation for conflating this issue to one of free speech.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      6 March 2018 at 7:17 am

                      It’s not clear to me under what circumstances you’d address another person using a third-person pronoun – when I’m talking to people I call them “you,” “sir/ma’am” (I expect that’s also egregious hate-speech to some people) or their name (assuming I know it).

                      And the fact remains that people creating their own individual pronouns and demanding that others use them entirely defeats the purpose of having pronouns in the first place. Someone who refuses to indulge such pointless and irritating narcissism is well within their rights to do so, and it’s the people making the demands who should devote some thought to how they treat others.

                • Baba Yaga …
                  5 March 2018 at 1:45 pm

                  Gender expression is the right of every human being. Forcing that delusion onto others should not be.

    • joe90 19.2
      4 March 2018 at 9:18 pm

      Peterson’s a favourite over at the sewer so until now I haven’t bothered to find out too much about him.

      I shoudn’t have bothered.

      There is no polite way to put this, but since Peterson claims that “If you worry about hurting people’s feelings and disturbing the social structure, you’re not going to put your ideas forward,” I’m just going to say it: Spend half an hour on his website, sit through a few of his interminable videos, and you realize that what he has going for him, the niche he has found—he never seems to say “know” where he could instead say “cognizant of”—is that Jordan Peterson is the stupid man’s smart person.

      http://www.macleans.ca/opinion/is-jordan-peterson-the-stupid-mans-smart-person/

      Peterson said he views university establishments as “the next best thing to a cult” due to their focus on what he calls “postmodern” themes such as equity. He says his independent project will contrast the university model by providing straight humanities education.

      For about his first seven months on Patreon, Peterson earned about $1,000 per month. That changed last October, when he saw a dramatic increase in support, which has not slowed. The professor surpassed a fundraising goal of $45,000 on June 10, and is now aiming for $100,000 per month. On Monday, Peterson was making $49,460 every month from 4,432 patrons.

      https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/07/04/controversial-u-of-t-professor-making-nearly-50000-a-month-through-crowdfunding.html

    • McFlock 19.3
      4 March 2018 at 11:37 pm

      I don’t get it.

      Why does he give a damn how someone wishes to be addressed? If it’s a restricted title that might cause confusion, ok. But a pronoun? Why does he “detest” it so?

      Seems to me that he has a problem with gender identity, not the individuals. Intentionally aggravating or initimidating individuals he is supposed to educate and inspire is bad enough, but there’s an entire sector of the community he can’t help but offend, intimidate, and otherwise alienate. Which seems a bit, well, discriminatory, to me…

      To hell with all his other bullshit, as a teacher he should know better than to bully students over something as easily tweakable as a pronoun. To them it’s their identity. To him, it’s simply a gesture of respect (or its absence).

      I didn’t bother watching the video – if a college professor can’t run rings around someone they have 20 or 30 years experience on, their sole source of employment should be Fox News commentariat.

  20. eco maori 20
    4 March 2018 at 6:31 pm

    A good sports week New hub I happy with some of the outcomes Ka pai Ka kite ano

  21. eco maori 21
    4 March 2018 at 8:33 pm

    This looks like a construction system that will meet the goals of our new government to construct 10.000 of houses needed to meet the demands for new homes. Ka kite ano

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/101956360/the-future-of-nz-housing-is-prefabs-and-180000-tiny-homes

  22. Ad 22
    4 March 2018 at 9:12 pm

    Prime Minister Ardern is playing the Australian media like a black grand piano.

    I suspect she is building up momentum in order to use their media to ask something big of Turnbull.

    This is one skilful pollie we have here.

    • adam 22.1
      4 March 2018 at 9:47 pm

      After 9 years of the pony tail puller, the Aussies I speak to with are mighty impressed with our current PM.

      Most can’t even remember the one before Bill the Bumbler (love Aussie humour somtimes) , name

    • Incognito 22.2
      4 March 2018 at 10:32 pm

      Skilful or natural?

  23. Leonhart Hunt 23
    5 March 2018 at 5:26 am

    Earn billions, be the richest man in the world… pay no taxes.

    Amazon, another tax avoider.

    https://www.inquisitr.com/4811819/amazon-earned-billions-in-2017-but-paid-no-us-income-taxes/

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