Open mike 04/04/2023

278 comments on “Open mike 04/04/2023 ”

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1. Hunter Thompson II 1

   4 April 2023 at 7:43 am

   I found this poem by Robinson Jeffers (1887 – 1962): https://allpoetry.com/Be-Angry-At-The-Sun

   So cool. So relevant.
2. Incognito 2

   4 April 2023 at 8:20 am

   Is Wayne Brown dog-whistling, is he not aware of the damage his comments can do (after the shambolic share fiasco), or does he simply not give a shit? Ignorance is the least likely option and no excuse anyway.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/04/councillor-josephine-bartley-says-she-s-doing-all-right-after-receiving-threats-following-comments-by-mayor-wayne-brown.html

   Another hagiography must be coming out soon. What will it be this time? Easter with the grandchildren?

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/lunch-with-auckland-mayor-wayne-brown-and-wife-toni/GF3SIE2ZUZEIPDSVD3FECPEZFQ
3. Sanctuary 3

   4 April 2023 at 8:51 am

   A hagiography penned by no less a person than the famously accessable (/sarc) Shayne Currie. The Herald is heavily invested in Brown, that is for sure.

   It has been obvious since day one that NZME has decided Brown is their man, or more to the point their boomer demographic's darling. Comparing their coverage of Wayne Brown with, say, Stuff is like reading about two different realities.

   If Brown pissed on a homeless person on Albert street the Herald would inform us all the mayor made a strong statement on homelessness in his usual direct and idiosyncratic style, quoting the mayor saying “Auckland’s ratepayers are not going to feed the poor or homeless anymore that is those blood sucking parasites in Wellington’s job” and follow it up with a "Getting to know the mayor: How mayor Wayne Brown spends Easter with is extended family in the far north" puff piece for damage limitation.
4. Ad 4

   4 April 2023 at 10:47 am

   Really good to see Prime Minister Hipkins give thanks to Guyon Espiner on RNZ this morning re the lobbying reforms.

   Don't hear that media-politician interface called out positively very often.
   • MichaelP 4.1

     4 April 2023 at 2:03 pm

     Yep good to see.

     Not so good to see is that he appears to be yet another MP who doesn't know (or won't say) what a woman is…

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/trans-rights-chris-hipkins-asked-to-define-what-a-woman-is-goes-viral-with-stumbling-answer/55K6HL4GTFBWXJECJIMB5OBUDM/

     Doesn't look good in the eyes of a majority of voters in my opinion so why do it? Wonder what the labour female MP's think?
     • Ed1 4.1.1

       4 April 2023 at 2:19 pm

       I suspect not many would be able to give a good definition of either a man or a woman at present. "Gotcha" questions are hard to prepare for. . .

       Which dictionary definition do you prefer – Oxford, Cambridge or another one?

       Languages do not remain static – Cambridge appears to be ahead of Oxford . . .

       Doubtless the ''woke right'' would disagree with the pronouns used here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgina_Beyer ?
       • Michael P 4.1.1.1

         5 April 2023 at 8:06 am

         It can hardly be referred to as a "gotcha" question any longer surely? I would have thought that any political advisor or political party pr person or whatever these types of people cal themselves these days would have sat MP's down, especially the PM and sorted out what would be their response to this question should they be asked it. I know that's what I was thinking I would do immediately if i was an advisor would be to coach them all into the correct answer to that hot button issue question and I'm definitely not a political advisor, PR person, whatever they are…

         I mean I can't think of any other question at all asked of politicians that has has such an enormous amount of media coverage and publicity throughout the entire Western world, can you?

         So the more i look at it the more i conclude that it is simply not a 'gotcha' question any longer. Unless our political goings on behind the scenes are really that amateur so as to not have got ahead of this.

         So to stumble so badly on such a simple question especially MP's in cabinet or the PM, etc who are trained experts in how to answer (or not) media questions is a really bad look in the eyes of 'ordinary' New Zealanders (voters) in my opinion. I can easily imagine people seeing this on the telly and just being in disbelief that the Prime Minister of their country doesn't know what a woman is?? Are you f…ing kidding me!?

         All that aside, as a PM, he should be able to answer any question or fill any gap by speaking to it with minimal visible self doubt and mumbling. I mean he could have simply said "I can't remember the actual definition off the top of my head but whatever it says in the Oxford English dictionary would be my intuitive answer" or he could of said "I can't remember the actual wording of the dictionary definition at the moment, but I can tell you, they don't have penises.." which is the sort of quote that would go down very well with a large majority of the population (voters)

         I don't know your age but could anyone imagine Lange or Muldoon getting caught off guard by a question and then stumbling around for a full minute and still not providing an answer???

         They would provide an immediate accurate answer because they would have known this might be asked or if they didn't know, then there would no doubt be some quick sarcastic remark possibly followed by a probably brutal takedown of the questioner and anyone else looking at either of them the wrong way. The conversation would then have been skillfully and quickly moved on with many probably left wondering if something had just happened.

         The MP's of the modern era are really weak in terms of political ability. Am thinking MMP could be partly to blame maybe? Just a thought and before anyone says it I voted for MMP and if had the choice would prefer even more proportional representation. It could just be a generational thing I guess but I just can't put the likes of Hipkins, Key, Adern, Luxon, etc in a picture with the likes of Lange, Muldoon, Clarke et al and think Of the first group as being anywhere close to as skilled, as politically capable, as worth listening to, etc as the second group.
         • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1.1

           5 April 2023 at 8:38 am

           Good comments. The question asked of Hipkins was not a gotcha question. if he did not know the dictionary definition he should have been able to draw on reserves of knowledge or suggest where a person might get a definition.

           All that aside, as a PM, he should be able to answer any question or fill any gap by speaking to it with minimal visible self doubt and mumbling. I mean he could have simply said "I can't remember the actual definition off the top of my head but whatever it says in the Oxford English dictionary would be my intuitive answer" or he could of said "I can't remember the actual wording of the dictionary definition at the moment, but I can tell you, they don't have penises.." which is the sort of quote that would go down very well with a large majority of the population (voters)

           I find it curious that he seemed to be able to know enough to pronounce that women's issues campaigner KJM in her event talking to women was the terrible type of person or event not needed here in NZ.

           Has he a bad memory or, shock horror, has he been totally trapped by the swirling craziness going on.

           To be quite honest I would have preferred an answer along the lines of Sir Keir Starmer that (99.9.% of women do not have pensises). Even allowing for the fact that this too is inaccurate by numbers it has stated a fundamental point.

           Never mind my UK/US friends are now having a laugh while previuosly they were concerned at why the police had not been present on 25/3.

           Neither action is terribly admiration inducing for NZ.
           • Michael P 4.1.1.1.1.1

             5 April 2023 at 9:05 am

             I think the terrible stumbling mumbling could be because immediately in his head he might have been thinking how do i answer this and keep everyone happy or onside maybe.

             His advisors or someone will or should have told him by now that this is simply not an issue / question that you can do politics with and either sit on the fence or have a bet each way. As the Prime Minister of this country you either know what a woman is or you don't. You are going to have to choose a side on this and whichever side you choose to sit on means you are going to be pissing people off bigtime on the other side.

             So I guess then you have to decide as a politician which is politically a better choice to make but hopefully you would leave politics aside and simply say or choose what you believe is the truth of the matter and suffer whatever consequence arise knowing that you are confident within yourself that you have made the correct choice.

             I'll suggest a side if I may….. it would be almost 100% impossible for me to believe that the Prime Minister of our country doesn't know what a woman is, especially now he's had time to do some research and find out.. (eye roll…) so if he were to choose the 'other' side I would know he is not being genuine (to put it politely) and would have to then describe him as a deceitful little weasel (to be slightly less polite).

             Of course, I am biased so….
             • Shanreagh …

               5 April 2023 at 9:22 am

               Of course the PM has firmly nailed his colours to the mast about the side he favours and that is instructive. So he has taken it from the dictionary to the political.

               As I said earlier one of the ministers I worked with as a Private Secretary /policy adviser said being laughed is the hardest thing for a politician to counter. You become a figure of fun initially and then people say 'who is this guy……what is this party……?"

               At the very least it may be a way to question candidates at election time!
       • Michael P 4.1.1.2

         5 April 2023 at 8:38 am

         All other names are but representative of mere pretenders whom will forever dwell in the shadow of the great and true Oxford English Dictionary. (in my opinion of course)

         I'm not sure who or what the 'woke right is' but would suggest that doubtless only they / it would be qualified to comment on the accuracy (or not) of your statement regarding their / it's thoughts on pronouns, certainly I can't comment on their / it's behalf…

         Yes of course language evolves. (Generally in a natural manner with the tacit consent of the population who adopt new words. etc) Compulsion is not a good way of trying to ensure viewpoints of certain groups are ensconced in language. For example I will happily use deliberate projected falsehoods in my language if it helps another feel happier and such forth but the minute you try and say that I must use that same language then my consent and my cooperation is goneburger… don't try and force me and you'll find i'm much much happier to indulge.

         The population at large either starts using new words in everyday language or they don't but trying for example to force people to use incorrect grammar such as they / them pronouns in the singular context is/was a ridiculous idea and I betcha heaps o' moolah it won't be a thing in a few years.. (Unless maybe the number of people who still actually care about using correct grammar within our beautiful, world famous English language is way less than i had thought)

         Come to think of it, it really isn't a thing now except amongst a tiny minority of strange (IMHO) people..
         • Shanreagh 4.1.1.2.1

           5 April 2023 at 9:01 am

           Agree about the Oxford Dictionary. In the US they rely on one of their's Websters? As we ally in English langaue to the UK then it makes sense to use the premier dictionary used by that country.

           You are game to even attempt to discuss anything that has 'woke' in it. I regard woke as being used as a pejorative. To me it is a signal

           Woke = be on guard for insult or pejorative that follows.

           'Woke' has a meaning that swirls around. My eyes glaze over when I have to read/interpret anything that includes 'woke' in it. Especially since the time, not on TS I was told I was pro & anti woke in the same paragraph. I mean pro woke, is it even a thing? Wouldn't you just be woke or not?

           I always like to read this from Alice in Wonderland

           “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

           ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

           ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

           Lewis Carrol

           It seem we have some trying to be 'masters' and enslave us with their made-up meanings for words.
           • Michael P 4.1.1.2.1.1

             5 April 2023 at 9:25 am

             As the late and wonderful Queen Elizabeth II was once to have stated when a dignitary queried as to something having a different meaning in American English…."There is no such thing as American English, there is just English."

             I imagine that was the end of the conversation, (God bless her!!)

             I'm now since she passed finally a republican (in the monarchy sense not politics just in case anybody's 'skimming' not reading.)

             Love the Lewis Carrol quote!

             on the stuff of 'woke', 100% what you said… When I see / hear the term nowadays regardless of context it pretty much does the opposite of it's literal meaning and almost puts me to sleep!
     • SPC 4.1.2

       4 April 2023 at 4:43 pm

       Are you aware that for some years one could change the sex/gender recorded on a passport or drivers licence?

       The legislation for this occurred in 2009 under the last National Party government.

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/x-marks-the-spot-on-passport-for-transgender-travellers/OAH7D5ETJDSUKUTDL5C452CLGQ/

       Are you aware that from 2022, legislation enables people to change the sex recorded on their birth certificate to be in accord with their gender ID without requiring treatment to physically conform with that.

       Are you aware that every single woman in parliament in 2021 voted in support of this – as did every NACT MP?
       • Shanreagh 4.1.2.1

         4 April 2023 at 6:22 pm

         Of course and it comes into force on 15/6/23. This is when we can expect to see males dressed in male clothing in female spaces for whatever reasons.

         This was more or less snuck through with a movement called No Debate. Many women made submissions and these were ignore. I understand that No Debate/BDM changes were part of the Greens coalition arrangements with Labour.
         • SPC 4.1.2.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 6:29 pm

           The process to allow application of change of their birth sex on the certificate without the former Family Court process may not lead to problems here such as in the UK. Their tighter status for change in identity from birth sex has lead to greater acceptance of right to access via transgender status.

           Note this

           Organisations and individuals can continue to rely on their own policies rather than birth certificates

           https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview—Frequently-asked-questions
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     4 April 2023 at 6:27 pm

     I heard that Ad and agree 100%
5. Anker 5

   4 April 2023 at 10:56 am

   Agree Ad
6. Anne 6

   4 April 2023 at 10:59 am

   The title is self explanatory:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487306/spike-in-online-hate-toward-trans-community-after-posie-parker-visit-researchers

   Very sad this level of vitriol and hatred has entered NZ. Its only a matter of time now that someone or some persons are going to be seriously injured or killed.
   • Nic the NZer 6.1

     4 April 2023 at 11:52 am

     "JK Rowling have singled out Lal", meanwhile its Lal's twitter feed which calls out JK Rowling, and obviously not for the first time.

     .https://mobile.twitter.com/shaneellall/status/1639748786254917633

     Apparently were watching some male doing egregious harm to a counter protester. I'd be surprised if the victim even noticed myself.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2

     4 April 2023 at 11:53 am

     Thanks Anne – interesting if true. The negativity directed at the (UoC) Young NZer of the Year (2023) by some Standardistas was disappointing; reminded me of the malice towards the (Kiwibank) NZer of the Year (2021).

     I regard myself as a left-wing man. With that apology out of the way, I (would like to believe that I can) support rights for woman, and for trans people, and for others belonging to the (minority) rainbow community. There's overlap between these groups, and taking sides in any disagreement between them would be a regressive step for me.

     Why this snowballing tension between some trans people (plus supporters), and some women (plus supporters) in NZ? Imho, the trans community bears some responsibility – framing KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'" as an existential threat to the trans community is inflammatory – sure, KJK has supporters, but KJK is one person.

     Sincerely hope that 10 years from now NZ society will still have the luxury of debating 'gender ideology', just as I hope that the topic will be about as controversial as same-sex marriage is in Aotearoa NZ today.

     After the third reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Act 2013, Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig called the legalisation of same-sex marriage a "failure of democracy", and warned "the day of reckoning" would come.
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_New_Zealand#Public_campaigns
     …
     No other New Zealand political party has shown any inclination to revisit the issue; however, Family First continues to operate its "Protect Marriage NZ" website.
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_First_New_Zealand

     For the record (again), I believe that biological sex (in genetically female/male humans) is immutable, and that the provision of single-sex spaces for females must continue. Until such time as the acceptance of 'gender ideology' (acceptance of 'gender', 'gender identity' and 'self-ID') is (more) widespread, third (and/or fourth) spaces for trans people are a way forward – a (temporary) compromise/truce.

     All camps may be beyond that now (No Debate –> No Compromise), but I hope not.
     • Charlotte Rust 6.2.1

       4 April 2023 at 12:03 pm

       Maybe if people were able to simply say ‘this is what I believe’ re biological sex woman/man, without the name calling and the hysterics that follow, that would be a start.
     • Anne 6.2.2

       4 April 2023 at 1:04 pm

       I…. support rights for woman, and for trans people, and for others belonging to the (minority) rainbow community. There's overlap between these groups, and taking sides in any disagreement between them would be a regressive step….

       My view too.

       I believe that biological sex (in genetically female/male humans) is immutable, and that the provision of single-sex spaces for females must continue.

       As a woman I agree with that too. But I also believe trans people need to be catered for. Perhaps a partitioned section of woman only public spaces with its own entrance and exit.

       But given the bad vibes flung at some of us who dare to believe trans people are entitled to consideration too, it seems we have committed a mortal sin.
     • Shanreagh 6.2.3

       4 April 2023 at 1:28 pm

       Women have been asking and asking for sex based access to safe spaces, these have been in our society for years, for ages.

       The conflation of sex and gender does not help the way forward. people can identify as a Brazilian cat, or an Australian dinosaur and most women wouldn't care.

       But that is not the issue.

       The issues is that we are being forced by legislation to accept that men can be women. ie can change sex. With minimal moves to transition this is what we must accept.

       If the ID was made on the basis that a man had fully transitioned, then that would possibly be a step. Possibly too far as most transitioners still have high levels of testosterone and usually keep the bulk. strength & muscle even after transition and still are a risk to women.

       I sat next to a transwoman in the chemist today while we were waiting for our flu injections. Easily over 6ft 3 with a build to match, called H***y. Clearly not a woman….a number of the older women were catching each other's eyes some in an alarmed sort of way. But mostly to signal, not a women, not a women…beware.

       I am all for having separate spaces for males who identify as females. ie identify does not mean they are females as sex is immutable.

       It should not be for women to have to accept men in their bathrooms.

       This concept is so simple that I am astonished that this is so hard.
       • Visubversa 6.2.3.1

         4 April 2023 at 1:43 pm

         The problem with the "separate spaces" arguement is that it does not reckon with the prevailing voices of todays "trans rights" movement – men with autogynephilia.

         For them, using women's spaces and services is a very important part of their paraphilia. The "transgression" is part of the thrill – as is requiring other people (mostly women as they are sexually attracted to women) to be unwilling participants in their fetish behaviour. They are not interested in third spaces – it is being in the women's room or service that is the whole object of the exercise. You don't get your "validation" in the gender neutral bathroom if there is a woman's one next door. They demand to play sports on the women's team, use the women's part of the spa etc.

         We see in Sussex where a sexual abuse survivor service provided separate services for men, women and "trans and non-binary" people that a male bodied person demanded to be able to use the one for women. He disclosed nothing, said nothing, and appeared to be enjoying listening to women speak about their abuse. When women sad that they were uncomfortable with that they were told that the service would lose its funding if they excluded him.

         It is not about Carmen and Georgina any more.
         • Shanreagh 6.2.3.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 2:01 pm

           Yes you are correct Visubversa.

           Some think it is easy but it is not.

           The Sussex case has echoes of women in other counselling groups, particularly in rape crisis centres being forced to accept male counsellors or not have access to counselling.

           https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2022/05/05/brighton-rape-crisis-centre-sued-over-refusal-to-offer-female-only-groups/.

           I offered the separate areas idea as many people believe there is a compromise.

           What is abhorrent to me, and which will probably be the cheapskate (oh I’m sorry that word slipped out I meant cost effective) go to method adopted by local authorities is the provision of unisex toilets.
           • Ed1 6.2.3.1.1.1

             4 April 2023 at 2:53 pm

             It is not just local authorities – my local Pak'n'Save has two unisex toilets – both have a table for changing a nappy, both have a mirror and provision for hand-washing. And yes, the few public toilets left are now unisex.

             Not so convenient for a sports arena though – and we cannot now avoid discussion over sports participation and competition, and treatment of trans people in prison. Some however start from a premise that we are all people, that diversity should not penalise application of our laws, and that every person is entitled to respect and recognition of any special needs. For some, however, short term political advantage trumps everything . .
         • SPC 6.2.3.1.2

           4 April 2023 at 5:00 pm

           Is there any research as to the extent to which the prevailing voice within the transgender movement is from those with autogynophilia?

           As to presence in women’s spaces, it’s plausible that a nation such as the UK – which does not have self ID and requires a health supervised transition process – will allow more transgender access to sex based spaces than here.

           Thus it would be easier for “transgression” to occur there than here.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.3.2

         4 April 2023 at 3:31 pm

         The issues is that we are being forced by legislation to accept that men can be women. ie can change sex. With minimal moves to transition this is what we must accept.

         As indicated @6.2, I don't accept that a biological/genetic woman can become a biological/genetic man (and vice versa) – legislation cannot force me to accept this.

         My non-acceptance is evidence-based – my support (such as it is) for women's rights, trans rights et al. will continue regardless.

         https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/discrimination/womens-rights/
         • Shanreagh 6.2.3.2.1

           4 April 2023 at 4:59 pm

           Well that is the whole point though women are being forced to accept male bodied people in our spaces.

           This is not some academic argument about angels on a pinhead. After 15/6/23 women using say public toilets will be forced to accept that a male person wearing male clothes has a right to be in the women's toilets, He may be holding his new self ID birth certificate.

           Weka posted an excellent summary of the concerns around men in female toilets here

           weka10.3

           3 April 2023 at 8:36 pm

           I know as a male this will not affect you but it may affect females close to you such as your girl children, your grandmother, elderly Aunt.

           Visubversa has good information here.

           Visubversa6.2.3.1

           4 April 2023 at 1:43 pm

           This is not gay bashing or trans bashing. This is a plea for commonsense around the provision of safe spaces for women. Traditionally safe spaces have been those where women are able to separate themselves from males.
       • Michael P 6.2.3.3

         6 April 2023 at 3:44 am

         "most transitioners still have high levels of testosterone and usually keep the bulk. strength & muscle even after transition and still are a risk to women."

         Not if they are fully transitioned (i.e had full surgery) as removal of the testes means removal of over 95% of testosterone production. Testosterone levels drop rapidly in men after castration as does libido. The other stuff such as voice getting higher, possibly developing breasts, etc take a bit longer.

         Am just thinking, would anyone be adverse to maybe looking at all women's sex based rights and / or spaces and just changing them all to add the word 'biological' in front of 'women' ?? It would seem to me that would keep and safeguard existing women's sex based rights etc by making them biological sex based whilst allowing for men dressed as women as well as transwomen to enter other women's spaces (which i'm assuming would be those based on gender so for example a meeting where women transwomen – yes , men – no.)

         or not?? Am I missing something?? Does this just put us back to where we are sort of ??

         It seems clear that trans women and women women are not the problem here, it's a small minority of bad or criminal or perverted or violent etc etc men who will take advantage of legislation to worm their way into women's spaces.

         Sorry, and of course those responsible for drafting gender ideology legislation.

         further, it seems that the only real option then for where to look in regards to finding a solution is the legislation. People should be nagging the hell out of MP's to tell them not to pass legislation unless it is re drafted to provide a solution. It can be a good idea i believe at the same time to let them know how many people you gave in your contacts lists and how many friends on social media. Then maybe speculate on what a very large number (of voters) might be arrived at should we include those contacts contacts lists and friends lists.

         I just had a really quick probably not even ballpark guesstimate of mine (which doesn't include social media coz i don't do social media) and arrived at close on 10,000 so numbers will be enough to make MP's at least take notice??

         Fuck knows. Am just trying to think of solutions which are win wins but it seems ever more likely that somewhere along the line there will have to be a win lose…
     • Patricia BremnerRobert 6.2.4

       4 April 2023 at 3:08 pm

       Thanks Drowsy M. Kram, that is welcome in the space.
       • weka 6.2.4.1

         4 April 2023 at 5:24 pm

         please fix your user name.
     • Patricia Bremner 6.2.5

       4 April 2023 at 3:11 pm

       Thanks Drowsy M. Kram, that is welcome in the space.
   • Tiger Mountain 6.3

     4 April 2023 at 11:57 am

     Yes, in years gone by there was “poofter bashing”–literally–and the dark NZers really enjoyed serving it up during the early AIDs era to all sorts of vulnerable people.

     The digital era has enabled such hate to mutate more rapidly with social media reach available to any halfwit with a phone. Counterspin, Groundswell, Steve Bannon etc. are American developed phenomenons that have now penetrated NZ political culture.
     • Terry 6.3.1

       4 April 2023 at 12:25 pm

       No doubt that there was poofter bashing. My memory of my early 20’s was that violence was generally being in the wrong place in the wrong time. Bump into the wrong person at the pub, wrong friends etc…

       Most of us had it tough, but not being stupid I tried to keep away from trouble.
   • Michael P 6.4

     5 April 2023 at 10:30 am

     I don't have the time or energy at the moment to detail the many inaccuracies, acts of willfull ignorance, lack of sources or examples of data being described, no actual specific information or examples of all this hatred at all, just a few he saids she saids and non facts. most despicably violence towards the trans community is mentioned often and they even play the old Jk Rowling card.

     It's full of suggestions and whispers of all the usual shadowy groups of trans hating extremists and Nazis and white supremacists whilst as usual no actual details or videos or any actual 'real' stuff that people can digest on these elusive hate preachers. I've been around a while and I spent plenty of time in the 'other' world that most people never really encounter and I've never met an actual Nazi or white supremacist, etc which is not to say they don't exist but it would be helpful if all these researchers and supposed experts would shine a bright light on them so we can see them and call them out rather than just making non statements that mean nothing.

     All in all a poorly written opinion piece as opposed to actual journalism in my opinion and the complete lack of sources for evidence and data says a lot.

     "Very sad this level of vitriol and hatred has entered NZ. Its only a matter of time now that someone or some persons are going to be seriously injured or killed."

     ??? I was under the impression (but could be wrong) that someone had already been seriously injured (the elderly woman who was punched in the face)??? I guess that could depend on what you classify as serious. As someone who has had plenty of contact with violence over the years both in work and sports contexts as well as leisure, my bar is pretty low as to what i would deem and know to be, a serious injury.

     In my experience when a person has been on the end of actual real physical violence causing such an injury they have a very different (and in my opinion far more accurate) understanding of what's serious and what's not. Further example.. swollen face, broken bleeding nose – looks bad but generally not serious. Fractured or broken facial bone anywhere near an eye – definitely serious.

     As an aside, I'm amazed that the NZ Police haven't arrested the coward responsible for the assault yet. There is plenty of video evidence and clear photos identifying him on twitter and so on. for example:

     https://mobile.twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1640648258413314049

     Hopefully the Police are just taking their time and ensuring they have all their ducks in a row before they make their move….but i am starting to wonder…
     • Liberty Belle 6.4.1

       5 April 2023 at 10:50 am

       Nailed it! You may be interested in this op piece, which contains some actual data.

       Neither marginalised, abused nor vulnerable | Madison Smith | The Critic Magazine
       • Michael P 6.4.1.1

         6 April 2023 at 4:06 am

         Very informative article, thanks for the post.

         Confirmed some of my suspicions i think.
         • Shanreagh 6.4.1.1.1

           6 April 2023 at 1:36 pm

           Here is a link to a person called Matt Walsh who recently spoke to a group & delat with many of the tropes around about sex/trans eg

           'its a spectrum'

           Matt Walsh

           @MattWalshBlog

           3:08 PM · Apr 5, 2023
7. Ad 7

   4 April 2023 at 11:45 am

   A surprising amount of the world's current fragile equilibrium depends on the outcome of the Turkish election coming up.

   I'm hoping Erdogan gets dumped. There's just a slightly better chance of that happening now.

   https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/03/middleeast/kurdish-kingmaker-turkish-elections-mime-intl/index.html
   • Sanctuary 7.1

     4 April 2023 at 12:02 pm

     "I'm hoping Erdogan gets dumped."

     I doubt he would go even if he loses an election he plans to try and skew his way every way possible…
     • Ad 7.1.1

       4 April 2023 at 12:58 pm

       Agree. His response to the 'coup' attempt two years ago was a cruel and ruthless purge. His relationships within the Turkish Armed Forces appear much deeper as a result – which is the kind of backstop he would need if he lost.

       There would be more democratic safeguards around Turkey if the EU particularly France had sucked it up and accelerated Turkey's EU membership.

       What we have now in Turkey instead is the world's most effective diplomatic broker between China, Russia, EU and USA. So no one can ever give any guidance or support for free and fair elections.
8. Shanreagh 8

   4 April 2023 at 1:04 pm

   And from the font of all knowledge and power comes the PM's inability to define what a woman is. From the press conference after cabinet on 3/4. Question asked by Sean Plunket.

   Priceless. yet he was able to opine on the terrible PP and her terrible event for women called Let Women Speak

   I mean it is really, really hard question and Sean Plunket was awful asking such a tricky question. /sarc

   Chris Lynch

   @chrislynchmedia

   New Zealand Prime Minister Chris Hipkins stumbles over defining a woman during a press conference. https://bit.ly/40DVn1A

   NB he conflates sex and gender when finally he has to answer from his own knowledge without being able to read briefing notes

   A tweeter has said

   'This wasn't a test of knowledge – we all know what a woman is. It's a test of honesty, which he failed.'

   The response about birth certificates was incorrect. The process is ostensibly to change one’s sex (not gender) on a birth certificate.

   geez wayne…it is not hard.
   • Visubversa 8.1

     4 April 2023 at 1:45 pm

     It is a test of which group you value.
     • Shanreagh 8.1.1

       4 April 2023 at 2:10 pm

       Of course.

       That is why I am saying that in a way PP tour being cancelled and all the subsequent contortions by Ministers etc has really done NZ women a favour in exposing in plain sight all of those people who are actually not women friendly

       I think many women had thought it went without saying male politicians et al would be.

       Fool Me Once, Shame on You; Fool Me Twice, Shame on Me. I'm not going to be in the second category.
       • Liberty Belle 8.1.1.1

         4 April 2023 at 9:18 pm

         It's done NZ women a favour. NZ itself, not so much. The trans activists have made NZ look like some authoritarian backwater. Maybe we are.
         • Shanreagh 8.1.1.1.1

           5 April 2023 at 9:12 am

           Agree with this. 25/3 and the fumbling around the definition of a woman has done NZ the country, the dream the reality, my tangata whenua, damage on the world stage.

           I am sure we are regarded as authoritarian and also that the Police are motivated by political leanings rather than without fear or favour. Or, for visitors, the Police may not be there when you would expect them to be.
     • Michael P 8.1.2

       5 April 2023 at 10:42 am

       I disagree, i think you can (and for me, should) value both groups as human beings with their own opinions without having to agree with them.

       For me, the following from one of Shanreagh's posts pretty much nails it..

       This wasn't a test of knowledge – we all know what a woman is. It's a test of honesty, which he failed.'

       Not saying you're wrong though (coz prople in glasshouses and all that..) just disagreeing.. (And of course I definitely value you as a human being,,,don't anyone dare ask me for a $ figure…)
       • weka 8.1.2.1

         5 April 2023 at 11:17 am

         It's pretty easy to value both: women are adult human females, TWATW/TMATM and still have the sex they were born with.

         Problem is, what I just said it considered transphobic and that it contributes to the genocide of trans people.

         Hipkins is picking a side. Hopefully his advisors will pull their heads out of their arses and look at what has played out in the UK with the Tories, Labour/Starmer/MPs, and SNP/Sturgeon, and won't put us all through agony. I don't think he will though. I think he will go down the Starmer track until he is forced by activism or circumstance to sort his shit out.

         Lots of variables, including ones the UK doesn't have (a GP coalition partner). This has the potential to cost the left the election. Sean Plunket will be well aware of this, and I expect the National PR and Dirty Politics crews are working on it as we speak.
   • Shanreagh 8.2

     4 April 2023 at 1:54 pm

     Oh dear it has gone viral NZ is being laughed at. Commentators have had a good week or so at NZ's expense.

     One of the Ministers I worked for said the worst thing to be is a politician that everyone laughs at. His view was that it was harder to get through that than it was to hold unpopular views.

     Mind you politicians all round the world are having problems

     https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-zealands-prime-minister-goes-viral-struggling-define-term-woman-people-define-themselves

     What with Keir Starmer saying 99% of women don't have penises I figure at some of my women's groups we will be asking each other 'who is the woman here with a penis in this group?'
     • SPC 8.2.1

       4 April 2023 at 6:32 pm

       The UK allows transition via a process, but that process does not require transgender woman to have no penis, nor transgender women to have one.
       • Shanreagh 8.2.1.1

         4 April 2023 at 8:54 pm

         ?

         Fully functioning, fully intact males cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called a female.

         There are pictures on line of men dressed as women in the open corners of women's toilets masturbating.

         Ok for Gran who walks slowly with a walker manuoevring round in the open area of the toilet outside the cubicles to see that or 9 year Millie whose mother said 'quickly use this ladies loo while I look at childrens' shoes outside' still Ok?

         Yet this person is enabled by many overseas jurisdictions to claim they are a woman.
         • SPC 8.2.1.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 9:33 pm

           The UK does not allow self ID, but does not require removal of a penis for a person to become a transgender woman.

           The UK allows much greater rights for transgender woman than here.

           Our own closer to self ID for access to changing birth sex etc, does not grant a transgender woman automatic rights of access to women's spaces.
           • Michael P 8.2.1.1.1.1

             5 April 2023 at 11:24 am

             I'm happy to be proven wrong but as far as I'm aware no Western democracy has any legal requirements in order for someone to 'be' a transgender woman. I'm guessing that would be because if you're a transgender woman then you're a transgender woman it's not a 'category' of person that somebody or some government entity assigns to you?

             further, in my opinion of course, (maybe I could somehow have an automatic disclaimer attached to all of my posts so i don't have to type that all the time…) 'being' a transgender woman has no bearing on your sex which is presumably (but who knows these days) male in the case of a transgender woman. Neither does having or not having a penis have any bearing on your biological sex.

             further further for most people of my generation and older transgender woman is also not a recognised category of gender, of which there are just the two. (coz old skool and all that). That doesn't mean you can't identify as however, whatever you want to it's just most us oldies like to keep things simple and will never agree with claims of however many different genders. Most of us managed to survive for many decades without even ever thinking about our 'identity' or 'how we identify', these were just not things. so for us it's probably a case of no need to change coz it's still not a thing. identify as whatever you want if you feel the need to have to identify as something (rather than just being who you are and being rightfully proud of who you are and f**k identity!

             yeaaaahhhh… rock and roll !!!…

             whoa…flashback

             If you take things (including yourself) too seriously then life will end up being too serious to enjoy.

             It took me a while (years) to get that hope anybody not there yet gets there asap.!

             All the above with the IMHO disclaimer…

             [You are ignoring polite but firm requests from a Moderator to stick to one username + e-mail address. FYI, your other e-mail address has now been blocked permanently from TS – Incognito]
             • SPC …

               5 April 2023 at 11:45 am

               Wrong. Some jurisdictions have a formal process that one must go through to be able to legally change gender from birth sex and others allow what is closer to self ID.

               Either way, the result is that people get status as of a gender different to their birth sex.

               Why do you think Starmer was talking about some people legally regarded as women in the UK, some – not all – of the transgender woman have penises?

               'being' a transgender woman has no bearing on your sex which is presumably (but who knows these days) male in the case of a transgender woman. Neither does having or not having a penis have any bearing on your biological sex.

               Whatever, a person can be legally seen as gender female despite being born of the male sex. Whether with a penis or not.

               You may note that some women object to those with a penis being allowed in designate woman’s spaces.
               • SPC …

                 5 April 2023 at 12:04 pm

                 Clarification

                 Why do you think Starmer was talking about some people legally regarded as women in the UK … having penises? Because some – not all – of the transgender woman, have penises. And all, whether they do or do not are legally entitled to claim the female gender, and be called transgender women.

                 PS. Those who present as female, without formal recognition as female gender transgender women, were called transvestites (in the past some were transsexual post up and some were not).
                 • weka …

                   5 April 2023 at 1:03 pm

                   there's no such thing as female gender. Female is a word used to describe biological sex.

                   No woman has a penis. Many TW do, because they are male.

                   The state allowing TW to have their sex marker changed on ID is a social and legal fiction designed to make their lives better. It doesn't mean they have changed sex.

                   The reason Starmer was talking about 99% of women not having penises is because he can't bring himself to say out loud that women = adult human female, and that TWATW. That would solve a whole bunch of immediate problems, but the gender ideologists aren't willing to compromise.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     5 April 2023 at 2:03 pm

                     Imagine getting to the age many of us are here and having to relearn what we probably learned pre school that women don't have penises.

                     Even though Sir Keir said 99.9% and couldn't bring himself to say the whole sentence correctly he is 99.9% more correct, if that is a phrase/concept than we are in NZ. Our PM is having trouble defining women so we may be asking a bit much of him to identify inherent sex characteristics. Even if we get him to 99.9% that would be a big step forward.

                     We may have to rely on 'But the Emperor has no Clothes' journos like Sean Plunket to investigate and gently push him along.

                     I don't think I could bear it though if he responded Yes to a question from Sean 'Do women have penises'. He will need some intensive briefing by his officials.

                     Aaaah the mockery NZ is getting around the world on that question.
                 • Michael P …

                   6 April 2023 at 5:43 am

                   "And all, whether they do or do not are legally entitled to claim the female gender, and be called transgender women."

                   So what then is this 'thing' you have stated as "transgender women" ?

                   To clarify, 'transgender woman' is not a sex category as we all know there are only 2 of them, male and female. So is it a gender category? No, not according to you because as per above you've stated that they can claim the female gender so if they're sex is male and gender is female (simply not a thing for most people) then 'transgender woman' is neither a sex nor a gender category which means it must just be a descriptive term (according to you)

                   So, I 'm pretty sure nobody has a legal entitlement to be called anything (in regards to a descriptive term)? furthermore nobody needs a legal entitlement to describe themselves however they want. For example if I want to call myself a blue elephant, then I can. I don't need any legal entitlement to do so and by the same token no government can say to me that I'm now legally entitled to call myself a blue elephant, because I can do it anyway without one.

                   So a long way of saying I don't understand why you've stated that somebody could or would ever need to be "legally entitled,,,,,," to be called a transgender woman?

                   Here's proof:

                   I'm a transgender woman.

                   I did that without needing a specific legal entitlement to do so. (unless you're arguing from a position of overarching freedom of expression laws, which I'm fairly certain you weren't.)
                   • SPC …

                     6 April 2023 at 6:29 am

                     In response to its obligation, the UK Parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which effectively granted full legal recognition for binary transgender people.

                     Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change their legal gender in the UK.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=
               • Shanreagh …

                 6 April 2023 at 1:39 pm

                 You are still conflating sex and gender.

                 They are not the same.
             • Incognito …

               5 April 2023 at 9:31 pm

               Mod note
           • Michael P 8.2.1.1.1.2

             6 April 2023 at 10:14 am

             "The UK allows much greater rights for transgender woman than here."

             really? Can you please tell me what rights I have here that a transgender woman doesn't have. I'd be pretty surprised if a transgender woman here has any more or any less or any different rights than the human rights that apply to the rest of the population
       • SPC 8.2.1.2

         4 April 2023 at 9:30 pm

         Clarification, should have said

         The UK allows transition via a process, but that process does not require a transgender woman to have no penis, nor a transgender man to have one.
         • Michael P 8.2.1.2.1

           6 April 2023 at 5:57 am

           the process doesn't and can't have any requirements whatsoever for a 'transgender woman' because 'transgender woman' is just a descriptive term, not a legal entity.

           Or , you've stated that 'the process does not require a transgender woman to have no penis'. so are you by this statement suggesting then that the process does have certain requirements for a transgender woman? In which case that would mean that "transgender woman" is a legal entity or some sort of category of person relating to a legal entity, which it clearly isn't.
           • SPC 8.2.1.2.1.1

             6 April 2023 at 6:28 am

             In response to its obligation, the UK Parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which effectively granted full legal recognition for binary transgender people.

             Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change their legal gender in the UK.

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=
             • Michael P …

               6 April 2023 at 10:31 am

               Yep but your link is wikipedia not the actual laws. You seem to be saying (apologies if you're not) that the legislation applies to a group of people or category of people called transgender people. The term is used in the wiki article because the article is written with a transsexual person in mind or it is about their particular interaction with the legislation.

               But the actual laws apply to all people, it's not just transexual people. You don't have to call yourself a transgender person to change yout gender , etc, you just need to meet the criteria. Transgender person is not a legal entity it'd just how some people with gender dysphoria describe themselves.

               It is still much more difficult to change gender or sex in the UK than it will be here as over there you still require a medical diagnosis and medical certificate, etc.
   • Peter 8.3

     4 April 2023 at 2:04 pm

     It isn't hard. If someone asks you to define what a woman is, don't you say, "If you don't know I'm not going to help you"?

     Or tell them to check textbooks or the net.
     • Shanreagh 8.3.1

       4 April 2023 at 2:14 pm

       Well it really caught Hipkins out..he had not been briefed on it you see. But any of those responses could have been a way to answer for you or me but of course the best way for Hipkins would have been to quote the dictionary definition……..

       an adult female human being

       then explained about gender…if you'd wanted to.
       • tsmithfield 8.3.1.1

         4 April 2023 at 4:37 pm

         I think that was his "sorry for being a man'' moment.

         What he did was incredible. He managed to offend half the voting population within a couple of minutes of youtube video.
         • Blade 8.3.1.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 5:38 pm

           To be fair it was a no win situation for Chippy. Here's some background.

           https://theplatform.kiwi/podcasts/episode/sean-plunket-on-that-question-to-the-nz-prime-minister

           In another interview with Bomber, Sean received a text saying the sender communicated with the Platform from parliament and had obviously had his communications monitored because he was called into the office and was reminded of his obligations as a parliamentary staffer. 1984 is truly here.

           https://theplatform.kiwi/podcasts/episode/guest-martyn-bomber-bradbury-on-sean-plunket-s-question-to-the-nz-pm
         • Robert Guyton 8.3.1.1.2

           4 April 2023 at 6:05 pm

           Why would anyone be offended?

           Hipkins was caught by a question that has factions waiting to pounce.

           Wise not to nail his flag to any mast.
           • gsays 8.3.1.1.2.1

             4 April 2023 at 6:15 pm

             By bringing gender and self ID into the answer, he not only nailed, he glued and screwed, pop-riveted and welded his colours to a mast.
             • SPC …

               4 April 2023 at 6:23 pm

               Every member of parliament voted to allow application of change of their birth sex on the certificate without the former Family Court process.

               That said that does not determine whether the person is to be seen as a man or woman.

               Organisations and individuals can continue to rely on their own policies rather than birth certificates

               https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview—Frequently-asked-questions
               • Robert Guyton …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:05 am

                 Hipkins would have benefitted from time to consider the question. You'll be aware that there are a range of opinions and nuances around the question.

                 Or are you demanding that his answer fits your view, perfectly?
               • Michael P …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:50 am

                 "That said that does not determine whether the person is to be seen as a man or woman."

                 Of course it does. If a man self id's as a woman then changes his birth sex to female on birth certificate then he is now legally a biological woman. the birth certificate is a legal document. If an organisation refused to accept the true legal status of someone then i'd imagine there would be some explaining to do and threats of lawsuits.

                 "Organisations and individuals can continue to rely on their own policies rather than birth certificates"

                 This and all of the other FAQ explanations they have on the website are really quite vague and don't sound convincing. for example the above quote, well what does that actually mean what would be some examples of their own policies? Is this in relation solely for identification purposes? How could you possibly differentiate between a real biological female woman and a biological woman who used to be a man? How would a sports organisation be able to prevent a man who has gender and sex changed from competing as a women if he is now legally recognised as a biological female?
           • Anker 8.3.1.1.2.2

             5 April 2023 at 1:59 pm

             What is a women Robert Guyton?
             • Robert Guyton …

               6 April 2023 at 7:27 am

               When does a girl become a woman, Anker?
               • Molly …

                 6 April 2023 at 9:48 am

                 When her body reaches sexual maturity.

                 Why are you asking, Robert?
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   6 April 2023 at 10:03 am

                   I was asking Anker, but in any case, how is that determined and is it the same for every girl and are there some who for some developmental reason don't get there?

                   Just wondering how difficult it might be to be exact in some cases.

                   Asking, because it could be difficult to define exactly what the status of some females might be; that is, not an easy question to answer.
                   • Molly …

                     6 April 2023 at 10:19 am

                     Woman = Adult + Human + Female is simple and accurate.

                     Female: Someone who inhabits a body evolutionally designed to develop via the Müllerian pathway that supports the production of large gametes.

                     Now, as you are someone who has appropriated the use of "Woman" to refer to a declared identity of some men –

                     Are you able to provide a definition of that use "woman" in regards to gender identity that excludes all who don't meet that criteria, and includes all those you want to include?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 10:47 am

                     Stop diverting/prevaricating Robert please. The question is simple to understand and equally simple to answer.

                     Woman = Adult + Human + Female is simple and accurate.
                   • weka …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:08 am

                     I was asking Anker, but in any case, how is that determined and is it the same for every girl and are there some who for some developmental reason don't get there?

                     Just wondering how difficult it might be to be exact in some cases.

                     Asking, because it could be difficult to define exactly what the status of some females might be; that is, not an easy question to answer.

                     It's not that hard. Girls become women biologically at menarche. They go through a social transition period as a teen, hence we have the term young woman that is sometimes used interchangeably with girl.

                     Yes, it's different for each girl. Yes there are some girls who have delayed menarche related to health conditions.

                     What does any of that have to do with the question 'what is a woman?'
                   • Molly …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:22 am

                     Sorry, I missed answering the somewhat bizarre focus on sexual maturity:

                     Personally, I would say when a female has reached the usual point in the Müllerian pathway where they can conceive, gestate, deliver and nurse a baby if no processes on that pathway have been disrupted.

                     "Asking, because it could be difficult to define exactly what the status of some females might be; that is, not an easy question to answer."

                     True. Because as we know, along with interference with processes – there can be environmental factors that speed up reaching this milestone such as:

                     https://www.thenationshealth.org/content/47/4/E16

                     The youngest recorded mother was five years old:

                     https://www.livescience.com/youngest-age-give-birth-pregnancy

                     Now, I would consider this instance to be a child with precocious puberty either from a developmental condition, or perhaps from prolonged sexual abuse. We know from the pregnancy that a male with sexual maturity had raped this child at least once.

                     But biology does not heed my distaste, and for whatever reason, matured her reproductive system in terms of conception ability so that she was able to conceive. However, that speed in terms of other aspects of growth could not be equalled, and due to her small frame – the baby was delivered by C-section.

                     This is a story as old as time – and still happening.
                     https://www.childmothers.org/index.html

                     Female children – because of their femaleness – birthing children while they are young.

                     The line you are drawing is superfluous to the conversation.

                     There is a marked difference between male and female.

                     Stages within a females life, from infancy, to childhood, through puberty, fertility, peri-menopausal and menopausal are experienced individually and often with associated issues particular to these stages.

                     There is no reason to draw definite demarcation lines between these stages, in order to define female.
                   • RedLogix …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:40 am

                     @Robert

                     Part of me want's nothing to do with this idiotic debate. If someone had suggested we would be debating the meaning of the word "woman" just 10 years ago, and that it would have been taking up so much valuable bandwidth – you would have been rightfully laughed out of the room. And not allowed back.

                     Yet the fact of human beings being collectively prone to such mass delusions is fascinating and scary at the same time. The harsh, unpopular truth is that our societies need solid mooring points, absolute truths that keep us from drifting collectively off the edge.

                     Because right now this is what is happening to us in so many dimensions other than this fruitless, diversionary debate about our biological reality.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:45 am

                     RedLogix – I agree entirely with what you've written, especially when you say,

                     "Because right now this is what is happening to us in so many dimensions other than this one."

                     This is something I've proposed many times before here on The Standard.

                     And here we are.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:53 am

                     Thanks for your explanation, weka. Could you also explain to me, what would be the status of a girl who medically delayed or avoided permanently, menarche, yet went on to become an adult? Or of a girl who by some action of nature, matured but avoided menarche?

                     Thanks.
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 12:11 pm

                     Thanks for your explanation, weka. Could you also explain to me, what would be the status of a girl who medically delayed or avoided permanently, menarche, yet went on to become an adult? Or of a girl who by some action of nature, matured but avoided menarche?

                     I can’t explain that to you Robert, because I haven’t ever come across that situation. Maybe you could google it and find out and let us know? For the females who never go through puberty (PB issues aside), what happens to them?

                     My guess is that they have to figure out where they fit in the scheme of things. Kind of like intersex people have to. If that’s what you mean by ‘status’.

                     How does this relate to the question ‘what is a woman?’
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 11:56 am

                     Shanreagh – are you meaning, ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION!!! because that's how it reads and has seemed throughout this debate. Demands that I read this link and that link, that I respond to points made in those links, sound very authoritarian, especially on a blog that has, til now, not practiced such commanding language.

                     Why do you think I am compelled to answer Anker's "out-of-the-blue", question?
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 12:16 pm

                     Shanreagh – are you meaning, ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION!!! because that’s how it reads and has seemed throughout this debate. Demands that I read this link and that link, that I respond to points made in those links, sound very authoritarian, especially on a blog that has, til now, not practiced such commanding language.

                     Why do you think I am compelled to answer Anker’s “out-of-the-blue”, question?

                     Putting my moderator hat on, I have a few things to say, to everyone.

                     1. no-one here is obliged to answer any question, other than when requested to do so by a moderator. Even then they don’t have to, but they risk a ban. However, continual refusal to answer questions generally is just rude when you are talking with people.
                     2. people that ask a lot of questions and don’t engage with people that answer them can end up being seen as trolls. Even if that’s not their intention, such debate style can cause problems. This is already on my moderator radar in this debate.
                     3. continually harassing people to answer questions also causes problems, and this too is in my moderator radar.
                     4. if you don’t want to answer a question, don’t, but know that how you do that matters
                     5. if someone continually won’t answer questions, and asks lots of questions instead, there are lots of ways to respond to that eg ignore them, don’t engage, talk to other commenters in the thread about the issue you are interested in and so on.

                     Feel free to ask any questions for clarification, and I will do my best to answer them.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:00 pm

                     Molly said:

                     "Sorry, I missed answering the somewhat bizarre focus on sexual maturity:"

                     Again, it's that reading comprehension issue with you, Molly.

                     You think a "focus" (single question) about sexual maturity is bizarre, against the backdrop of day after day after day of focus on sexual status/nomenclature that's been evident here on The Standard?

                     Are you serious?
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 12:27 pm

                     Molly said:

                     “Sorry, I missed answering the somewhat bizarre focus on sexual maturity:”

                     Again, it’s that reading comprehension issue with you, Molly.

                     You think a “focus” (single question) about sexual maturity is bizarre, against the backdrop of day after day after day of focus on sexual status/nomenclature that’s been evident here on The Standard?

                     Are you serious?

                     Again, with my mod hat on, a comment to everyone.

                     1. telling someone they are too stupid to understand what they just read is an insult in most cases. This is different from saying something like ‘I don’t think you’ve understood my point’. Please stop with the 1000 paper cut insults (all sides), and start recreating an atmosphere where good debate can happen.
                     2. myself, I find the sexual maturity questions tedious in the absence of you, Robert, explaining your own thinking. You are obviously trying to draw something out by asking these questions, but it’s a style of debate that ends up aggravating people. And then the mods have to get involved, which pisses us off too.
                     3. if you are implying that the word woman cannot be simply defined because some girls don’t go through puberty, then please just say so. Because there are intelligent responses to that.
                     4. if you don’t explain your own thinking, then you are starting to look like a troll who can’t put up a decent argument.
                     5. ‘what is a woman?’ is a political statement that now has a long history, far beyond the last few weeks on TS. If you are unaware of this, that’s ok, but please don’t expect others to not talk about this.
                     6. everyone needs to settle down. This debate is going to go on for a long time, think about the marathon nature of it and how we might continue to make the debate on TS robust and fair.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:10 pm

                     @Molly

                     "There is no reason to draw definite demarcation lines between these stages, in order to define female."

                     The question was, "What is a woman", not "What is a female".

                     Reading comprehension 101.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:14 pm

                     The claim being loudly made here is that "woman" is simple to define and that anyone who isn't one, isn't one.

                     I wonder where that leaves such a person who I have described (there many be many such). The definition of woman is simple, it should be simple to say what any adult individual is: man or woman.

                     Shouldn't it?

                     My point being, there is complexity where simplicity is being claimed.
                   • Molly …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:17 pm

                     Ah, @Robert.

                     It appears I hit a nerve that is still inflamed today.

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-29-03-2023/#comment-1942421

                     Now, if you consider it unjustified – then let it go. I have no authority to demand you accept that criticism. It was based on my experience of interaction with you, and reading your responses to others.

                     In that context, I'm still waiting for you to return the courtesy that others extend to you when replying in good faith to your Redirection Questions.

                     I'm not holding my breath though, so I'll still be around if/when that happens.

                     A repeat:

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1943952

                     Now, as you are someone who has appropriated the use of "Woman" to refer to a declared identity of some men –

                     Are you able to provide a definition of that use "woman" in regards to gender identity that excludes all who don't meet that criteria, and includes all those you want to include?
                   • Molly …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:40 pm

                     @Robert Guyton

                     @Molly

                     "There is no reason to draw definite demarcation lines between these stages, in order to define female."

                     The question was, "What is a woman", not "What is a female".

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1943952

                     Woman = Adult + Human + Female is simple and accurate.

                     Female: Someone who inhabits a body evolutionally designed to develop via the Müllerian pathway that supports the production of large gametes.

                     "Reading comprehension 101."

                     

                     https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU
               • Shanreagh …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:45 am

                 @ Robert

                 Normal civil discourse frowns on answering a clear & simple question by asking a question designed to divert.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   6 April 2023 at 11:49 am

                   I does, Shanreah. It also allows for the person questioned to ignore the question, especially if they feel, as Hipkins will have, that answering it is nuanced and likely to cause upset no matter how it's answered and look! Anker asked me the very same question, after Hipkins struggled with it. Curious!

                   Anker is within their rights to ignore the question I asked them. I chose instead, to in response, ask one I believed might lead to interesting discussion.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:20 pm

                     Hipkins will have, that answering it is nuanced

                     In what way is the answer nuanced?

                     Please let us know as many cannot see any nuance, just capture.

                     Dictionary

                     Definitions from Oxford Languages

                     woman

                     noun

                     1. an adult female human being.
                        • a female member of a workforce, team, etc.

                          "thousands of women were laid off"

                        • a female person associated with a particular place, activity, or occupation.

                          "she was the first Oxford woman to take a first in Physics"

                     From Wiki

                     A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl. The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age. Wikipedia

                     It is not hard.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 5:42 pm

                     "The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age. "

                     It is nuanced and difficult to describe simply, as was required of Hipkins, by Plunket.

                     I've read a variety of relatively complex explanations here in this thread alone; do you really think that Hipkins could have given an authoritative response, on the spot, that would satisfy viewers across the spectrum?

                     It would have been responsible to have given Hipkins a heads-up before the question was asked, don't you think?

                     Or do you applaud "gotchas"?

                     Sean Plunket – The Woman's Hero!
                 • Shanreagh …

                   6 April 2023 at 12:14 pm

                   @ Robert

                   Normal civil discourse frowns on answering a clear & simple question by asking a question designed to divert.

                   This is what I said.

                   Anker's question did not come out of the blue. It was after Hipkins stumbled and fumbled and generally looked ridiculous. Molly even gave you a clue from the dictionary/common parlance a few posts further down.

                   I see no need to prevaricate. I have not sworn or capitalised anything.

                   I ask about references that many have gathered for you and others as it is not always clear that you have read the them, let alone inwardly digested them.

                   You will see that others offering comments/ideas have been spurred on to find complimentary references, to share all sort of 'women's stuff, often dredged from the often sad or concerning personal happenings in our own histories. By sparking off each other we can get to share all sorts of references we might not have been able to find. We can also hone our views. This is what we were offering to you Robert. The chance to stop sniping and join a discussion.

                   If, like Hipkins, you find the question too difficult just say so.

                   If you are in favour of male bodies being in women's safe spaces at least say so.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:16 pm

                     Shanreagh – I am not the Prime Minister. I am not Chris Hipkins. Anker's question did come out-of-the-blue, for me!

                     Why did they ask me?

                     Why do you feel I'm compelled to answer such a question, rather than ignore it?

                     Regarding links provided for my edification, you write;
                     “it is not always clear that you have read the them,”
                     There’s a compulsion on TS now, to prove that a link provided has been read, that understanding has been gained???????
                     Authoritarian much!
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 12:58 pm

                     @ Robert re

                     Regarding links provided for my edification, you write;
                     “it is not always clear that you have read the them,”
                     There’s a compulsion on TS now, to prove that a link provided has been read, that understanding has been gained???????
                     Authoritarian much!

                     One or two of the great things about TS is the expectation that statements will be referenced. In doing so, this follows basic university of thought level standards. By doing this we offer our peers the opportunity to read articles, scholarship that may have influenced us. We want to know where you are coming from.

                     It is really an offer of our bona fides, that we have thought and our ideas are not just opinions plucked out of thin air.

                     In giving access to learning, as we do with references, we are providing a gift, to continue our learning in an atmosphere that will mostly provide thoughtful and provocative views based on scholarship.

                     If you do not follow the links, clearly that is your right.

                     As I did mention adopting a Socratic machine gun style of commentating only works if we know that you, the Socratic questioner, is ahead of us in the knowledge game and is wanting to impart ideas, thoughts.

                     While you adopt a Socratic questioning style sometimes, I am not convinced that you are asking from a position of knowledge in seeking to elucidate dark places/ie educate us. I sense in fact a rigidity in thought, a resistance to commenting on articles that you have made up your mind have no merit.

                     Yet you won't let us know by discussing them.

                     In my quest to find thoughtful information I have been impressed by the work by some who I may not have considered before ie those commenting from a religious or conservative background.

                     https://www.advocate.com/news/gays-against-groomers-exposed

                     So it is a group that is not universally accepted.

                     I came across this very powerful testimony from David Leatherwood from this organisation that was shared on some Women's networks. It was shared by a Gay man, not in the GAG organisation as a testimony.

                     Another man from this organisation.

                     The group is really concerned about transitioning young people and has been mounting a US state by state campaign ….to raise concern and help ban the practice.

                     Gays Against Groomers

                     @againstgrmrs

                     4:19 AM · Apr 6, 2023
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 6:16 pm

                     @ Robert….what spectrum? There are male and female sex.

                     Why could Hipkins not be accurate and honest and merely state the Oxford dictionary definition

                     an adult female human being

                     Being from the Oxford Dictionary it is widely accepted around the English speaking world.

                     It was not a 'gotcha' except to those whose minds have already been captured. Many would say it was simple to answer. Like what colour is the sky on a clear sunny day?

                     It was an attempt to show exactly how far down the trans ideology road he had travelled.

                     After his appearances/comments on the visit of KJM where many of us had seen his wiffle waffle about the purpose of her visit etc there was little surprise that he could not/would not answer.

                     These press conferences are not the type like Oral Questions in the House where these are known beforehand. PMs go there expecting to be questioned on topics du jour and to announce/share topics from the Cabinet meeting.

                     Officials gather a range of material on trending topics as briefing notes and run through these with the PM. So knowledge of a trending topic depends on the PM's ability to keep up with the news and his officials knowledge of issues that may bubble beneath the surface.

                     If he is giving a heads up from Cabinet then material will be provide on that so PM can announce these.
                   • Incognito []

                     6 April 2023 at 6:28 pm

                     Hmmm, political spectrum or spectrum of opinions or the spectrum of visible light (you know, Rainbow colours), etc.

                     I don’t think it is that hard to work out instead of jumping to full-blown conclusions, yet again, and continue with the same kneejerk response.

                     This is getting tedious ☹
                 • Shanreagh …

                   6 April 2023 at 1:24 pm

                   @ Molly

                   Brilliant

                   My song from an old stager, who used to have a pair of trou like Helen Reddy's and used to wear a crop top not like hers!

                   In the days when we were often called Women's Libbers or, in our family, Women's Libers, from a farewell card from an male apprentice of my sister's who said he had loved being able to talk to/work with a 'women's liber.'
                   • Molly …

                     6 April 2023 at 2:01 pm

                     Thanks for the link.

                     Watched a good short documentary on Helen Reddy when she passed away recently. If I find it on my computer history I'll post.

                     Interesting woman, and iconic song.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 6:28 pm

                     I am Woman was written by Helen Reddy

                     "I'm very honored that United Nations chose a song I wrote as their theme song of the year." ~Helen Reddy, 1975
               • Anker …

                 6 April 2023 at 2:39 pm

                 Thanks everyone. Only just saw Roberts question to my question, so those who responded to him have saved me the bother.

                 Having scrolled down it appears you. have given an answer to the question what is a women?

                 Up to you of course.

                 One option would be to ask Chris Hipkins comms people what they have come up with as they scramble to find a definition that doesn't have the trans rights activists calling for blood.

                 Alternatively, you could just admit a woman is an adult human female.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   6 April 2023 at 5:44 pm

                   "Alternatively, you could just admit a woman is an adult human female."

                   That's not the definition provided here by commenters (weka et al) who have attended to this question for some time now.

                   How do you expect Hipkins to be better informed than, say, weka?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 5:55 pm

                     Huh?

                     Links please.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 8:35 pm

                     Well, for example, you provided this explanation:

                     "woman

                     noun

                     1. an adult female human being.
                        • a female member of a workforce, team, etc.

                          "thousands of women were laid off"

                        • a female person associated with a particular place, activity, or occupation.

                          "she was the first Oxford woman to take a first in Physics"

                     From Wiki

                     A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl. The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age. Wikipedia"

                     Is this how you would have liked Hipkins to respond?

                     Or would you prefer Molly's,

                     "Female: Someone who inhabits a body evolutionally designed to develop via the Müllerian pathway that supports the production of large gametes."?

                     Weka offered a third definition. Would you be satisfied if Hipkins had, on the spot and without the benefit of access to wikipedia, blend the three views?

                     "It's not hard", you claimed.

                     Okay.
                   • weka …

                     6 April 2023 at 8:47 pm

                     Weka offered a third definition.

                     Please link because we don't know what you are talking about. Popping you into moderation now because someone already asked you for a link and you didn't provide one.
           • Shanreagh 8.3.1.1.2.3

             6 April 2023 at 11:11 am

             Re Chris Hipkins faux pas

             Who are the factions?

             Does a faction include women ie 51% of the population?

             Why should being 'scared' of a faction derogate from speaking the truth or do these factions also control what we consider truth/biology.

             Comment

             The denial of biology seems to be eerily similar to some of the 'truths' from the ant vaxx movement.

             especially some of those mentioned by US commentator jeff Tiedrich in this link

             https://thebugonline.com.au/2021/10/18/tweet-sticks-it-to-anti-vaxxers/

             Except people are not quitting.

             I have mentioned previously on here that some in the anti vax movement in Wgtn were highly represented in my Tweets leading up to 26/3 organising to make banners, assemble noise making equipment. I was invited to specific places to help paint placards, to have food before setting out on the journey to deny women the right to listen to JKM.

             Unrepresentative perhaps but these had been silent, for the most part, since the parliamentary protest in 2022.

             I know that some of the anti vax movement (VFF) in NZ/Aus worked through the health, natural health. supplements industry that has a preponderance of young mothers.

             Some of the literature I have read on the transitioning of young children 'seems' to be of that demographic. Apparently it is very concerning for these people to think that their children may be same sex attracted when they are adults.

             So concerning that they would rather submit their children to a lifelong dependency on hormones and the genital (mutilation ooops) surgery can have lifelong effects too.
     • Michael P 8.3.2

       6 April 2023 at 6:04 am

       Or could perform a charades explanation. That could be quite funny actually when you think about it. (or difficult if you're trying to mime the definition…)

       (or nigh on impossible if you're a believer in gender ideology…)

       No, you tell them Adult Human Female.

       It's really not that hard FFS.
       • Shanreagh 8.3.2.1

         6 April 2023 at 11:19 am

         You're a very naughty boy Michael P.

         It is a difficult question and needs lots of research and briefing beforehand.
         /Sarc

         I'm still enjoying the laughs NZ is having against us as many rush to reassure that the while the whole world is watching NZ they do realise that we too, as a country, are caught in the grip of this madness.

         Some countries are working their way out of it….Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch in the UK

         https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/04/kemi-badenoch-could-rewrite-law-to-allow-trans-exclusion-from-single-sex-spaces

         The proposal is to see if greater clarity could be written around the Equalities Act in the UK.
         • Robert Guyton 8.3.2.1.1

           6 April 2023 at 12:05 pm

           For a Prime Minister, needing to take into account a range of communities in the country, many of whom are feeling seriously threatened by the debate, yes, a question like that requires careful answering, in my opinion. For you, safe and comfortable behind your laptop, not so much, I imagine.

           Plunket is a man, lauded now as the hero of women?

           Did he define "woman" prior to asking his "question"

           Curious.
           • Belladonna 8.3.2.1.1.1

             6 April 2023 at 12:25 pm

             If you're curious, Robert. Why don't you run away and find out….
           • Shanreagh 8.3.2.1.1.2

             6 April 2023 at 1:07 pm

             Women are very uncomfortable that is true Robert. But I sense you are not including us here.

             But of course you are not coming out and saying so.

             And neither are you making any case for those ostensibly 'feeling seriously threatened by the debate'.

             Visubversa linked to some excellent analysis that commented on the world-wide talking points about the pro trans groups.

             Visubversa1.2.1.4.2.1

             2 April 2023 at 8:47 pm

             https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/?fbclid=IwAR2tG9aStkbefxA-3k5RNUjOO9Lo3Pe7fVT7wvTmtZcnJ1yHbB7SuHgcxEg
             • Shanreagh …

               6 April 2023 at 3:07 pm

               Malcolm Clark

               The tide is turning towards gender criticism (or back to sanity). This judgement by the European Court of Human Rights is another triumph. A transwoman does not get legally to call himself a child's mother. Children do not exist to validate your delusion

               @TwisterFilm

               10:48 PM · Apr 5, 2023

               Write-up from the European Courts on Human Rights shows perhaps a swinging pendulum.

               It may have swung too far. This is the gamble the trans community takes/took when the hardline No Debate self ID position was promulgated across the world.

               My view is that it could have been non-controversial to enhance the civil rights/human rights to what ever gender they identified with, as long as it 'did not frighten the horses'. This is achieved by goodwill, education possibly back-up legislation to be tolerant of difference. Many people are good mannered enough to treat others with good manners.

               NZ Govt could have worked on the previous ability to amend birth certificates by say, looking at the time a person had to live as the opposite sex or set up a fund perhaps through MSD to give loans, grants for the legal costs of this previous process.

               Trying to make humans disbelieve the evidence of their eyes, upbringing by insisting that some sort of biological miracle took place that turned a male body into a female body by Self IDing is a bridge too far. It deserves every bit of pushback it is getting.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 6 April 2023 at 8:39 pm

                 "Trying to make humans disbelieve the evidence of their eyes…"

                 Oh, the climate deniers argument!

                 Powerful.
   • SPC 8.4

     4 April 2023 at 5:30 pm

     Prior to the 2021 legislation the process to change sex on a birth certificate required a family court process. Now it does not.

     https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/changing-your-gender/change-the-registered-sex-on-your-birth-certificate/

     https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview#improved-process

     History as per passport ID

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/x-marks-the-spot-on-passport-for-transgender-travellers/OAH7D5ETJDSUKUTDL5C452CLGQ/
     • Michael P 8.4.1

       6 April 2023 at 6:58 am

       Wow, I've just noticed in your link spc that it says you can change your sex on your birth certificate to reflect your gender. This is very poorly thought out legislation. Or it's deliberately like that.

       "Under the self-identification process people will be able to apply to amend the sex recorded on their birth certificate so that it reflects their gender"

       https://www.justice.govt.nz/family/change-the-sexgender-on-a-birth-certificate/

       This essentially means that not only does gender no longer matter because with self id you can change your gender to whatever you want, but this then means that biological sex no longer matters. For example if a man changes gender to female he can then change his sex on birth certificate to reflect his gender. so you could have a man being legally recognised as a biological woman.

       far out i had thought that woman might be gone by way of gender self id but thought that biological woman was safe as you can't change your sex regardless of how you identify.

       Except it seems now that you will be able to (legally) change sex. this is really bad and something that I'm certain virtually nobody out in the real world has heard about.

       If i change my gender to woman / female and then change my sex to female that means I am legally a female with a matching gender identity. Does that mean that my car insurance company would legally have to offer me lower premiums as they do to other women?

       I bet there's all sorts of stuff where men will be able to claim entitlements that were previously only available to women This is a can of worms
       • Shanreagh 8.4.1.1

         6 April 2023 at 11:40 am

         Yes indeed , lower insurance premiums, access to formerly women only scholarships to University. Invitations to complete MAs/Phds that came with sex specific $$$$$. The effect of transwomen will not just be seen/felt in sport but in academia.

         My concern is that if the often higher paid transwomen come into the workplace with their usually male derived higher salaries that these higher salaries will be fed into the salary research that is a key part of the move to pay equity between men & women. I know that experienced HR practitioners will sense that these are outliers and query/put them aside. Those who do not want to look at pay equity will say this is not needed as there are these high rates.

         Of course if women in an individual workplace become aware that a transwoman is carrying a higher salary for the same job that they could opt for action to obtain the same salary and that would be a good thing.
   • gsays 8.5

     4 April 2023 at 6:02 pm

     Gotta give props to Sean Plunkett.

     To have the gumption to ask that question then the conviction to ask it again.

     It's pleasantly surprising the lack of 'attack of the messenger' in this case, round these parts. The common tactic when the message is difficult to respond to.
     • Shanreagh 8.5.1

       5 April 2023 at 1:49 pm

       Yes he has been a breath of fresh air here on Women’s issues.

       Offering to host the women who were planning to speak at Akl. He interviewed KJM and Yvonne van Dongen a couple of times.

       His command of the material he has heard or read showed in his question to PM, his calmness in asking it again.
   • Michael P 8.6

     6 April 2023 at 4:14 am

     Hey Shanreagh, I think I've just deduced that you may be from the same generation as me…yaaay!

     (Which in no way whatsoever of course is in any way to suggest anything about your age. .. Oh boy, I can feel the ground starting to shake beneath my feet… gulp. so I think i'll just stop digging and shut up…)

     The thing that enabled my deduction…. "geez wayne"… hehehe crack up.

     Does anyone remember good old "I doubt it Harry" ??
     • Shanreagh 8.6.1

       6 April 2023 at 11:28 am

       Possibly…..just goes to show that language matters. (and we can be forensically studied and dated!)

       Some women are concerned that by expanding definitions to include biologically and philosophically incorrect ideas is hastening the death of identity.

       The time of Fred Dagg Hon NZ philosopher and later the call to view ridiculousness via variations on the Tui ad 'yeah right'. Being sent up by Billy James.
9. Adrian 9

   4 April 2023 at 3:23 pm

   It is very hard following these arguments, a bit like sorting out the Judean Peoples Front from the Front for Judean People or for that matter the Judean Liberation Front ad infinitum. Does anyone have anything like an accurate number of people who may or may not have a dick who are the problem. My guess is that it is a very small number, certainly less than for instance the number of Chinese or Russian spies in the country. There seems to be a disproportionate number who have a problem with male to female transition than the female to male example. I am not ignorant of these matters having friends of both persuasions who I know or presume to be pleasant, gentle and pretty good human beings. For your information it is my opinion that PP is a self aggrandising mouth almighty very much in the Trump mode whom I expect to not quietly disappear in the not too distant future. She is a vehicle of hate using those wheels to simply gain notoriety.
   • Robert Guyton 9.1

     4 April 2023 at 3:27 pm

     Bravely put, Adrian.

     I take it you listened to the Kim Hill interview.
   • weka 9.2

     4 April 2023 at 5:24 pm

     and if the Russian spy took the place in a sports team that your daughter had been working towards for 5 years?

     Or your daughter self IDed to a trans man in her teens, had her breasts and uterus removed, and then later regretted it because she realise she is female and transitioning hasn't solved her problems of dysphoria or being lesbian or living in a world that hates females?
   • Anne 9.3

     4 April 2023 at 5:50 pm

     Indeed she is a self entitled, Trump-like grandstander and a hate-filled right-wing ideologist who has disguised herself as a staunch supporter of women's rights. She seems to have fooled some people but she sure ain't fooled most of us including Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins who reiterated that he "found her views to be abhorrent" only yesterday at his post cabinet conference.

     Onya Chippy!
     • Robert Guyton 9.3.1

       4 April 2023 at 6:02 pm

       Kim Hill's interview of Posie was revelatory.
       • Shanreagh 9.3.1.1

         4 April 2023 at 6:35 pm

         Really you keep coming back to that yet on successive threads here you have been exposed to much more material & from well known respected writers with nary a comment except a one liner about liking Dane Giraud's article.

         Perhaps find Weka's review of Kim Hill's interview with KJM.

         My partner said he felt it was not one of Kim Hill's better interviews.

         Once you have confirmed the reading in the earlier thread I will give you a link to a wonderful prior thread here and the names of two families and a journalist who has been investigating one of the families over several years.
         • Robert Guyton 9.3.1.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 7:35 pm

           Not sure how to find weka's "Kim Hill" review but am very interested to read that.

           Kim pressed Parker to expand on her claim that billionaires are, through their promotion of transgenderism (?) attempting to destroy the fabric of society.

           Did you have thoughts about those claims from PP?
           • weka 9.3.1.1.1.1

             4 April 2023 at 7:46 pm

             Did you read the replies to your comment this morning?
             • Robert Guyton …

               4 April 2023 at 7:47 pm

               Which comment?

               Please 🙂
               • weka …

                 4 April 2023 at 7:57 pm

                 ah, from last night https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943464
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   4 April 2023 at 8:00 pm

                   I read every reply made to every comment I make.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     4 April 2023 at 9:57 pm

                     So you read the points made by Weka et al and no have comments?

                     3 April 2023 at 8:36 pm

                     Did you know that all these things happen in Women's spaces?

                     Look at the Pritzker family, Arcus Foundation. Jennifer Bilek is a journo

                     .https://thestandard.org.nz/womens-day/#comment-1804466

                     Of course read for knowledge with an open mind, being careful etc.

                     Here are Weka’s comments, rather than ‘review’ on the Kim Hill interview. There is good info, again from Weka, on ‘peaking’ in context.

                     24 March 2023 at 6:42 pm
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   4 April 2023 at 9:07 pm

                   Mike King (we admire him, right?)

                   [unlinked quote deleted]
                   • weka …

                     4 April 2023 at 9:14 pm

                     your link was broken. I've deleted the quote. Feel free to post it again with the direct link.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     4 April 2023 at 10:05 pm

                     His son is better imo.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     5 April 2023 at 10:25 am

                     @ Robert Guyton

                     Link to Jenifer Bilek on Pritzker family

                     https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 7:33 am

                     Thanks, Shanreagh.

                     "a concerted push by members of one of the richest families in the United States to transition Americans from a dimorphic definition of sex to the broad acceptance and propagation of synthetic sex identities (SSI). "

                     does not equal Posie's overheated, conspiratorial,

                     "…attempting to destroy the fabric of society."

                     Does it?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 10:30 am

                     @ Robert Guyton.

                     Have you read the other links/references?

                     I feel that when 3-5% have a disproportionate affect on the day to day and private happening of women who are 51% of society it does look like something odd is happening.

                     I think when women are not able to maintain their access to sex based rights to safe spaces it is very concerning. (understatement)

                     But then if neither you nore Kym Hill believe thats OK

                     Have you answered the question from Anker yet?

                     Did you know about the activities that women, because of their sex carry out in the women's toilets?
           • Michael P 9.3.1.1.1.2

             6 April 2023 at 4:30 am

             Oooh ooh ooh ! I came across a video today which Ive posted on another thread but will add here as provides pretty convincing anecdotal evidence that explains just this matter (billionaires etc).

             https://youtu.be/tLXdoqXbC6k
             • Robert Guyton …

               6 April 2023 at 7:36 am

               Did you find it on Counterspin's site, MichaelP?
               • Shanreagh …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:40 am

                 The links about Jennifer Bilek are searchable on Google. These have been since she wrote them. So you did not do any searching on the names I gave the other day?

                 The link was dated 15/6/22.

                 Robert if you are happy for your female family members are OK having their ability to access safe spaces compromised then your/their call.

                 The links are easily accessible and do not have to be run through the concept of whether Kim Hill would agree.
               • weka …

                 6 April 2023 at 11:09 am

                 please stop with the slur politics. If you have a political point to make, make it direct and clear.
             • Robert Guyton …

               6 April 2023 at 8:59 pm

               "as provides pretty convincing anecdotal evidence"

               Ah!

               Anecdotal evidence!

               All good then!
       • Anne 9.3.1.2

         4 April 2023 at 6:51 pm

         I didn't know about that interview. Just finished listening. Serves to confirm my view. Tried to twist KH questions to suit herself then accused KH of interrupting her when KH attempted to correct her.
         • Shanreagh 9.3.1.2.1

           6 April 2023 at 10:41 am

           Pl read this. Some times the written word is easier going.

           https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers
     • Nic the NZer 9.3.2

       4 April 2023 at 6:58 pm

       Just so we are clear on the risk were taking, lets say PP decides to return and for whatever reason the anti loby shut up and she gets to say all the worst things and even a few hundred people hear them. About how many net deaths are expected from that happening?
       • Anne 9.3.2.1

         4 April 2023 at 7:09 pm

         And what has that got to do with me?

         Are you attempting to do a Posie?
         • Nic the NZer 9.3.2.1.1

           4 April 2023 at 7:20 pm

           You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things, things which we should not tolerate being heard in the NZ public even, and I'm just wondering how bad they could actually be.
           • SPC 9.3.2.1.1.1

             4 April 2023 at 7:29 pm

             Where has she done so on any occasion?
             • Nic the NZer …

               4 April 2023 at 7:33 pm

               9.3
               • Robert Guyton …

                 4 April 2023 at 7:37 pm

                 ?
                 • Nic the NZer …

                   4 April 2023 at 7:40 pm

                   Where 9.3.2.1.1.1.1.1 = ?
               • SPC …

                 4 April 2023 at 7:41 pm

                 I was referring to the word Nazi.
                 • weka …

                   4 April 2023 at 8:02 pm

                   close enough,

                   .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943197

                   .https://thestandard.org.nz/letting-women-speak-in-aotearoa-new-zealand/#comment-1941200
                   • SPC …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:06 pm

                     So no she has not.

                     Saying she has support from the right – would be fact checked as true.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 8:18 pm

                     yes, she didn’t use the word Nazi. Nic said that Anne has been saying that KJK says the most terrible things, Nazi like things.

                     Here’s Anne’s actual words, links above,

                     The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.

                     and

                     You nevertheless know there is something wrong when she attracts the support of the ultra conservative alt-right and fascist groups wherever she goes like Destiny Church and Action Zealandia.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 8:22 pm

                     oh look, the word Nazi,

                     Well said DoS. As I said a couple of days ago “she is an imposter” who is using the ‘rights of women’ campaign to further entrench ultra right-wing political views. She reminds me of the Nazi’s modus operandi of the 1930s.

                     .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24-03-2023/#comment-1940699

                     Anyway, this is silly. I read Nic’s comment as referring to the idea that KJK’s language is to inflammatory that it will prompt people to kill trans people. This is a comment argument being run in the gender/sex war. Anne can clarify is she believes it or not. Nazi is the word du jour of hyperbole and contempt in the place of actual evidence and argument. Nic’s question was a good one.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:07 pm

                     SPC is correct.

                     Why are some trying to put words into the mouths of others?
                     “Close enough” is not good enough, by a long shot!
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:37 pm

                     Or not 🙂
                     Yes. It has become very silly.
                   • The Al1en …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:40 pm

                     “You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things”

                     "Well said DoS. As I said a couple of days ago "she is an imposter" who is using the 'rights of women' campaign to further entrench ultra right-wing political views. She reminds me of the Nazi's modus operandi of the 1930s."

                     So not insisting "(most nazi) things" but reminded by a nazi modus operandi.

                     Oh yeah, agreed, entirely silly.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 8:48 pm

                     Nic’s question to Anne is based on the premise that Anne believes that KJK’s words are inflammatory enough to cause other people to commit violence against trans people. It’s a common assertion and seemed to me to be inline with what Anne thinks. If this isn’t what Anne believes, she can clarify.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:44 pm

                     Kim Hill clearly believed Posie was "an imposter" or something similar.

                     I rate Kim Hill. She's astute.

                     She didn't think much at all, of Posie, imo.
                   • SPC …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:49 pm

                     Can the accusation that,

                     defending the rights of one group of people by excluding others is of the Nazi modus operandi

                     Well said DoS. As I said a couple of days ago “she is an imposter” who is using the ‘rights of women’ campaign to further entrench ultra right-wing political views. She reminds me of the Nazi’s modus operandi of the 1930s.

                     be posed as evidence in support of this

                     You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things, things which we should not tolerate being heard in the NZ public even, and I'm just wondering how bad they could actually be.

                     I'd say no, because it spoke to her identity politics posing rather than anything specifically said.

                     As to the wider debate, some transgender activists calling others – “TERF’s” (and also “transcum”) Nazi’s is cited and not an issue – because some, if not all nor most, do this.

                     As to whether what KJK-M says, as woman's rights advocate, creates a risk of violence to that "other group, here transgender", is hard to quantify. That any public debate (or more isolated social media radicalisation) can inflame emotions is what it is. The best way to manage this …
                   • The Al1en …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:55 pm

                     The article posted at 6 is about on line violence. Does that count?

                     I see it as that Nic person lying about what Anne wrote.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 9:07 pm

                     Anne (in response to that RNZ piece on online abose of trans people): “Very sad this level of vitriol and hatred has entered NZ. Its only a matter of time now that someone or some persons are going to be seriously injured or killed.”

                     Also Anne: “Indeed she is a self entitled, Trump-like grandstander and a hate-filled right-wing ideologist who has disguised herself as a staunch supporter of women’s rights.”

                     If Anne doesn’t connect those two things (KJK’s speech, violence against trans people), then she can clarify. Or not.

                     Nic posed a question, that sits centrally within the general sex/gender wars debate. Rereading it, Nic didn’t say anything about Anne’s views, but posited the question generally.

                     Is the issue here the question, or that it was addressed to Anne.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 9:13 pm

                     The article posted at 6 is about on line violence. Does that count?

                     Count? Well apparently they didn’t count, or at least RNZ didn’t report the counting. I have zero doubt that there has been an increase in abuse of trans people as well as an increase in discussion about trans/gender/sex issues in the conspiracy networks. The problem with the RNZ piece (apart from the lack of quantifying) is that we don’t know how the researchers are defining transphobia. Are they including people saying that there are two sexes and that people can’t change sex? Or that TW are not women?

                     From my perspective, the increase in abuse is a result of the culture wars, lots of contributing factors to that, but blaming women for speaking about women’s sex based rights won’t help. It will make it worse. The people responsible for the abuse are the ones doing the abuse.
                   • The Al1en …

                     4 April 2023 at 9:15 pm

                     Nic the NZer9.3.2.1.1

                     4 April 2023 at 7:20 pm

                     “You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things, things which we should not tolerate being heard in the NZ public even, and I'm just wondering how bad they could actually be.”

                     One issue, I see the question at the end, which is easily answerable by 'in my opinion – really bad', but also see where Nic attributes "You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things" when it's clear Anne hasn't at all.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 9:27 pm

                     she does insist that KJK says the worst possible things. She’s just confirmed it here. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1943708

                     I did ask earlier if the issue was with the word Nazi. If it is, just take the word out, the sentence still makes sense. If it’s not the issue, then I’ll refer again to what Anne has just confirmed.
                   • The Al1en …

                     4 April 2023 at 9:27 pm

                     "From my perspective, the increase in abuse is a result of the culture wars, lots of contributing factors to that, but blaming women for speaking about women’s sex based rights won’t help"

                     My take is an increase in violence is inevitable, especially now far right NZ and anti vax nuts have a new common enemy.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 9:33 pm

                     I guess my view on it is a bit different having watched for years the number of women being abused (on and off line) including with sexual violence rhetoric, doxxed, losing their jobs and careers, and in some case physically assaulted.

                     The big problem I see is that left wing GC women are being erased, which leaves KJK and the right to dominate the narrative. And that lies squarely on the people that have been running No Debate.

                     Don’t know about inevitable. I like to leave the door open to things getting better. But I do have serious concerns about the backlash that looks more likely now. All the more reason to let women speak. We’re not the ones making the threats and we are the ones who are most likely to work towards a solution for all
                   • The Al1en …

                     4 April 2023 at 9:33 pm

                     She does says wort possible things, and that's a given on this side of the aisle.

                     It's not the word nazi, it's the attribution of a false statement.
             • weka …

               4 April 2023 at 7:38 pm

               The title is self explanatory:

               https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487306/spike-in-online-hate-toward-trans-community-after-posie-parker-visit-researchers

               Very sad this level of vitriol and hatred has entered NZ. Its only a matter of time now that someone or some persons are going to be seriously injured or killed.

               .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1943549
               • Robert Guyton …

                 4 April 2023 at 7:45 pm

                 Had Parker not visited?
                 • weka …

                   4 April 2023 at 7:46 pm

                   what?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     4 April 2023 at 7:49 pm

                     Is this comment:

                     4 April 2023 at 7:38 pm

                     yours?
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 7:56 pm

                     can you see the link in my comment? Did you read the preceding comments in the thread I was replying in?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     4 April 2023 at 8:01 pm

                     It reads identical to Anne's comment. What am I missing?
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 8:04 pm

                     Nic said,

                     You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things, things which we should not tolerate being heard in the NZ public even, and I’m just wondering how bad they could actually be.

                     SPC asked where she had done that. I supplied a quote and a link to where the quote was from.
                   • weka []

                     4 April 2023 at 8:06 pm

                     If you are on a phone or ipad, you will find it easier to follow threads on the Desktop version rather than the Mobile version. There are links at the bottom of each page to switch between the two.
               • Anne …

                 4 April 2023 at 9:20 pm

                 Nic’s question to Anne is based on the premise that Anne believes that KJK’s words are inflammatory enough to cause other people to commit violence against trans people.

                 From your comment further up the line weka.

                 Indeed I do, and I'm far from the only one who thinks so. Hence the RNZ link @ 6 today. It could of course occur the other way around and we have already seen evidence of that. Inflammatory rhetoric such as that we have seen from PP is always going to elicit a negative response which could – and does – end in violence of one sort or another.

                 Pointing it out is an essential part of discourse as I know you would agree with. Disagreement with my point view is fine, but a snide response which is how I took Nic the Nzer's reply is unwarranted.
                 • weka …

                   4 April 2023 at 9:26 pm

                   thanks for clarifying.

                   The question from Nic still seems valid to me. It's common to blame women talking about women's rights for trans deaths.

                   Myself, I think KJK is inflammatory. I also think Lal is as well. It's called a culture war for good reasons. The more people like KJK and Lal keep upping the ante, the worse it's going to get.
                   • Anne …

                     4 April 2023 at 10:30 pm

                     I stood up for her initially but I noted the other day she has been twittering some infantile stuff.

                     Oops… mistake. I was thinking of Eli Rubashkin of tomato juice fame. It all gets confusing to say the least.

                     It doesn't change anything. I concur with your statement.
                 • Anne …

                   4 April 2023 at 9:36 pm

                   "I also think Lal is as well"

                   Agree.

                   I stood up for her initially but I noted the other day she has been twittering some infantile stuff.

                   I agree with your whole comment.
           • Anne 9.3.2.1.1.2

             4 April 2023 at 9:04 pm

             I did NOT use the word "nazi" nor was it in my mind. Right wing extremist, far right, ultra conservative – take your pick – does not equate to nazism.

             However calling out an attention seeking imposter who attracts support from known groups with fascist tendencies is certainly appropriate. And it does not help her claimed cause.
             • Molly …

               5 April 2023 at 2:30 pm

               Could you answer a couple of questions, Anne?

               1. What do you believe her "claimed cause" to be?

               2. It appears you think there is an unspoken " real cause" – what do yo think it is (and what evidence convinced you)?
             • Michael P …

               6 April 2023 at 4:44 am

               "I did NOT use the word "nazi" nor was it in my mind. Right wing extremist, far right, ultra conservative – take your pick – does not equate to nazism."

               Except she hails from a working class background and has voted Labor her entire life…. so does not equate to nazism, or Right wing extremist or far right or ultra conservative.

               does however equate to you deliberately lying about a person to help support / back up your incorrect assertions and / or your side of the arguement??
               • Anne …

                 6 April 2023 at 9:30 am

                 .… she hails from a working class background and has voted Labor her entire life…. [it] does however equate to you deliberately lying about a person to help support / back up your incorrect assertions and / or your side of the arguement?

                 I don't give a damn what "her" background is. I don't give a damn who "she" votes for. I judge people on their behaviour and your incoherent, lengthy ramblings on this site don't exactly fill me with confidence.

                 Btw, its "argument" not arguement. Learn to spell for starters.
                 • Molly …

                   6 April 2023 at 9:56 am

                   Could you answer, Anne?

                   .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1943822

                   Genuinely interested in your reply – not wishing to put you on the spot, but wanting to understand your strongposition and how you arrived there.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   6 April 2023 at 7:14 pm

                   Are you saying Anne that KJM is not a woman? You've put 'she' in quotes. Is that why you have mentioned the impostor word?
               • Molly …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:01 am

                 You might wish to view this interview with Winston Marshall (who also experienced the negative impacts of online censuring):

                 https://youtu.be/S8e83KoJb00
                 • Shanreagh …

                   6 April 2023 at 4:43 pm

                   What a fantastic interview.

                   Winston Marshall is a top interviewer, one of the best, who had clearly done his background work.
                   • Ed …

                     6 April 2023 at 4:59 pm

                     Excellent interview.
       • Visubversa 9.3.2.2

         4 April 2023 at 7:54 pm

         Probably zero. Even in America where they shoot each other regularly, the murder rate for "trans women" would have to increase by 3 or 400% to catch up with the average rate. No trans person has been murdered here for at lest 5 years, but Toko Shane "Ashley" Winter is in Paremoremo prison for the sadistic torture and murder of a young woman in 2018.

         https://4w.pub/the-epidemic-of-transgender-murder-victims-is-really-an-epidemic-of-misinformation/
         • Anker 9.3.2.2.1

           4 April 2023 at 8:22 pm

           https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/paddy-woods-murder-charge-dismissed-after-death-of-zena-campbell/Z3N4U37XS5WCYWEN7MB5Q3DD3I/

           The murder charge int this case was thrown out. The last murder of a trans person I am aware of is around 2009 and involves a cross dresser who was beaten to death with a drug deal went wrong
           • Visubversa 9.3.2.2.1.1

             4 April 2023 at 10:00 pm

             Yes, none murdered "for being trans". The Wellington City Council lit up the Town Hall in trans colours and had a vigil for Zena Campbell. No civic memorial for murdered women though.
             • Anker …

               5 April 2023 at 2:07 pm

               And Zena Campbell wasn't even murdered. The case against her boyfriend was dismissed as soon as it reached court
             • gsays …

               5 April 2023 at 5:47 pm

               "Yes, none murdered "for being trans".

               I can see that twisting a'la hospitalisations/deaths 'because of Covid' from 'with Covid'.
       • Shanreagh 9.3.2.3

         4 April 2023 at 7:58 pm

         Nil.

         Judging by overseas happenings.

         But everyone is all lathered up here.

         Usually PP gets a few 100 as you say, they have a chat, they listen to other women speaking, the responses are written up and it is all very low key. The audience is not restricted to women but the speakers are. For the Wellington event, as for WoW, some women came down to Wellington to meet women friends and relations and go and see and hear a woman affirming speaker.

         She has views on safe spaces for women & on child safeguarding ie that every tomboy at age 10 with a pony does not need to start on transitioning, possibly ever. The 10 year old tomboy will either be a completely normal hetero adult female or a completely adult female who identifies as lesbian. These views which makes good sense to many of us are at odds with the trans lobby of male bodied men being able to enter women's safe spaces and transitioning children being OK.

         She has raised the ire of the trans lobby. PP is a feisty person who gives back in spades all the shouting and rubbish she hears and sees from those picketing and barracking. The phrase 'women don't have penises and men don't have vaginas' is so biologically correct I am wondering why it is so controversial. To all? many? this is self evident but goes against trans 'teaching' they believe changing sex can be done.
         • SPC 9.3.2.3.1

           4 April 2023 at 8:11 pm

           Probably.

           It's a pity the first event was not in Wellington because there the counter-protest was choosing to be at a different location, rather than kettle the smaller gathering
           • Shanreagh 9.3.2.3.1.1

             6 April 2023 at 4:59 pm

             Just read this again.

             The protest was meeting at the city to sea bridge that has one end in Civic Square and one end near the Wairepo lagoon on the waterfront.

             The Let Women Speak event was to be in the Civic Square.

             More chance to be bottled up as transactvists had already determined to occupy one of the exits, over the bridge. There are three other formal exists/entries Wakefield St, off the top Victoria st near the unused Library and through the old Circa Threatre site. As well there are entries through/beside buildings near the Art Gallery & Michael Fowler Centre.

             With the non policing we now know was planned activists could barricade all the exits and push in driving the women possibly up the stairs to the Art Gallery.

             To me the numbers of the transactivists who turned up on the Sunday could have been the level that KJM event could have expected. It would have been frightening and dangerous.
     • Michael P 9.3.3

       6 April 2023 at 4:22 am

       "hate-filled right-wing ideologist" who has been a working class Labor voter her entire life…

       Hmmm, something doesn't add up.

       Oh wait I see it, you're offering up nothing but your opinion on this person and that opinion would seem to definitely be an inaccurate viewpoint as demonstrated.

       Would love to know which views he found abhorrent except he would probably tie himself in knots again.

       Lazy post by the way. (IMO)
       • Shanreagh 9.3.3.1

         6 April 2023 at 5:07 pm

         I don't understand the references to 'Impostor'

         'a person who pretends to be someone else in order to deceive others, especially for fraudulent gain'.

         Definitions from Oxford Languages

         Who is KJM pretending to be? Or is this confusion between her real name and the nom deplume/twitter handle of Posey Parker?

         Or is someone saying the KJM suffers from this syndrome?

         Imposter syndrome is the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally, despite being high-performing in external, objective ways. This condition often results in people feeling like "a fraud" or "a phony" and doubting their abilities.

         https://www.betterup.com/blog/what-is-imposter-syndrome-and-how-to-avoid-it#:~:text=Imposter%20syndrome%20is%20the%20condition,phony%22%20and%20doubting%20their%20abilities.
         • Shanreagh 9.3.3.1.1

           6 April 2023 at 5:33 pm

           Here is an article about the Arcus Foundation that is funding transgender ideology around the world

           https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2021/04/22/arcus-foundation-grants/

           The link incudes links to two articles by Jennifer Bilek including one of the Arcus Foundation itself. I have already linked to an article she wrote on the Pritzker Family Trusts/foundations and how they are funding gender affirming care (which is shorthand for the transitioning of young people)

           ARCUS

           The rest of the article includes valuable detailed commentary on the groups receiving donations and what is being spent. a number of formula on the public lists of donations by Arcus. There are enormous sums being donated around the world.

           It concludes

           'As many of us are trying to point out to radical leftist groups who are screaming “transwomen are women” ,or other mindless mantras, mainly at feminists of the left, you are being manipulated by billionaires. This is not a grass roots movement its an elite project and there is a lot of money to be made in fostering a bodily disassociative condition that unmoors us from our sexed bodies."
           • Ed 9.3.3.1.1.1

             6 April 2023 at 5:47 pm

             This is scary stuff you have shared, Shanreagh, and explains why so much of the establishment is captured by this ideology. Thank you for posting so much on this. I have learnt heaps as a result.

             I am presently watching a video 'Who is Behind the Trans Agenda?' featuring Jennifer Bilek. Michael P posted it at 4.30 a.m this morning and I shall put it up here again.

             An in depth interview. I am nearly half way through..
             • Shanreagh …

               6 April 2023 at 7:00 pm

               Cheers Ed. It does take a while to get through. Rewarding though.

               Yes I noticed that Michael P had been early morning posting good stuff……
               • Shanreagh …

                 6 April 2023 at 10:38 pm

                 This interview with Jennifer Bilek was made by Big Picture.watch

                 'BIG PICTURE is a crowdfunded journalism production company focusing on the hottest topics of our time. We find the most interesting, qualified people in the world to speak to the issues that matter the most. Everything we produce is a cinema grade production.'

                 https://bigpicture.watch/about/

                 This has an interesting formalised crowd funding mechanism and at the moment they are crowdfunding for:

                 1 Dutch farmers and their need to comply with nitrogen regulations

                 2 An interview series

                 3 Where is my period?
             • Robert Guyton …

               6 April 2023 at 8:50 pm

               "This is scary stuff you have shared, Shanreagh, and explains why so much of the establishment is captured by this ideology. Thank you for posting so much on this. I have learnt heaps as a result."

               Screen capture from Counterspin site.

               [I’ve already warned you about slur politics, and the problems of not explaining your thinking. You cannot comment on site again until you explain what you mean by “Screen capture from Counterspin site”. There is another mod note for you elsewhere to respond to as well. – weka]
               • weka …

                 6 April 2023 at 9:11 pm

                 mod note.
           • Robert Guyton 9.3.3.1.1.2

             6 April 2023 at 5:50 pm

             'As many of us are trying to point out to radical leftist groups who are screaming “transwomen are women” ,or other mindless mantras, mainly at feminists of the left, you are being manipulated by billionaires. This is not a grass roots movement its an elite project and there is a lot of money to be made in fostering a bodily disassociative condition that unmoors us from our sexed bodies."

             Really crazy sh*t, I reckon 🙂
             • Ed …

               6 April 2023 at 5:52 pm

               Did you watch the Jennifer Bilek interview? (above)

               It is well worth it. You will learnt a lot.
               • Incognito …

                 6 April 2023 at 6:02 pm

                 Oh Jolly, learning outcomes! The tool of modern pedagogy. I think these will be a tremendous help to Robert because he’s been struggling understanding the questions, one in particular, and he keeps failing his Exam. He obviously also needs a Reader-Writer.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   6 April 2023 at 7:49 pm

                   Won't that one whoosh, Incognito?
                   • Incognito …

                     6 April 2023 at 8:29 pm

                     Are you saying that woosh sound is not tinnitus?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 8:48 pm

                     Either way, makes answering the exam questions doubly-difficult.

                     I

                     must

                     try

                     harder!
                 • weka …

                   6 April 2023 at 8:51 pm

                   I'm still not seeing a lot of evidence that Robert understands the gender critical feminist positions and arguments.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 8:55 pm

                     I understand them very well, weka, having read all I can here and having involved myself with long face-to-face conversations off-line, with females straight, queer, trans and un-defined, as well as men, straight, queer etc. I am not blindly lumbering, as portrayed here, but exploring these issues with the same intensity I do all issues that capture my imagination. I accept that you, and others here, "are still not seeing…" but, hei aha!
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:03 pm

                     that’s a long list of people you are listening too, but I don’t see gender critical feminists on it. I know you believe you understand the arguments. I’m saying that I’m not seeing the evidence of it here on TS. It might be something to do with your question heavy debate style, or your unwillingness to explain your thinking.

                     Here’s what Kathleen Stock said,

                     When criticising a philosophical position, it’s a good idea to start with a fairly neutral presentation of it. You should try to describe the position as its supporters would, without aspersions. That way, you aren’t lazily setting yourself up for cheap wins later.

                     .https://thestandard.org.nz/we-have-to-talk-about-sex-its-important/

                     I don’t thin you are or setting yourself up for cheap wins, but I don’t see you having the ability to present gender critical feminist positions in a fairly neutral way.
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:04 pm

                     I don’t see you having the ability to present gender critical feminist positions in a fairly neutral way.

                     Feel free to prove me wrong by doing so now.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 9:10 pm

                     Feel free to make you see what you cannot see, weka?

                     There are none so…, as the whakatoki goes…

                     Not my responsibility, nor my desire.

                     You can stick with the crew here who claim I'm bad-faith commenting, trolling, diverting and so on, or you could look to my history here and ask yourself, bad-faith?

                     If you settle with that, pull the plug on my commenting rights. At this point, I don't give a rodent's nether-region 🙂
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:16 pm

                     Feel free to make you see what you cannot see, weka?

                     Did you not understand Stock’s point? It’s not that hard. Tell me what you think my GCF position on women’s sex based rights are. Or Molly’s or Shanreagh’s GC positions. Any of them would do. Then that person can confirm if it’s right.

                     I’m not thinking in terms of bad faith or not. But I do think you are disrespecting moderation.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     6 April 2023 at 9:22 pm

                     So Incognito has it right: there's an exam that must be sat and passed.

                     Righty-o then.

                     I'll find my own way out.
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:25 pm

                     no, there’s no exam. As I said in a mod comment earlier, no-one needs to answer or say anything.

                     But you cannot complain when people point out the shortcomings of a particular debate technique. And if you won’t share your thinking here, it’s going to get commented on, because that’s what we do here, we talk about what we think and believe.
                   • Incognito …

                     6 April 2023 at 9:23 pm

                     My take on this is that Robert tries hard, genuinely, but runs into some kind of inner conflict or (logical?) contradiction. Rather than trying to sort this out in the open here on TS, I think he’d be better off talking in person with one or a few people whom he can trust. However, this is his choice to make and nobody else’s. In addition, he does get very little allowance (leeway) to voice or form his own opinion on the subject matter …

                     I don’t think the convos here on TS are particularly helpful for anybody who has not yet firmly made up their mind – they don’t give that welcoming vibe, at least.

                     Over the weekend, I might respond to you in the back-end and tell you how I really feel about some of the more recent developments.
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:28 pm

                     thanks. Yes, let’s talk in the back end. I’m not that happy with the amount of comments directed at Robert that have a certain approach. With my mod hat on, I haven’t read all the comments, but as mentioned in earlier general mod comments, there are problems on both sides. With my mod hat off, I just think it’s strategically a fail. What’s the point of keeping on at someone like this?
             • Shanreagh …

               6 April 2023 at 6:56 pm

               [deleted]

               [I’ve deleted your whole comment. You copy and posted whole quotes and didn’t provide links, but had time to write a long comment. We’ve had this conversations multiple times before and from memory you haven’t given a good explanation for why you keep doing this. I’m hoping that losing your time and work will make you take more notice and do something. Because I’m at wits end to make sense of how you could still be quoting without linking. (it’s not just you either).

               My suggestion is slow down, do less comments and get them right – weka]
               • Incognito …

                 6 April 2023 at 8:44 pm

                 You must provide links for your quotes!
               • weka …

                 6 April 2023 at 8:56 pm

                 mod note.
               • Shanreagh …

                 6 April 2023 at 9:26 pm

                 Sorry.

                 Is it possible to have a clue what the post was?

                 I had two screens open trying to copy across and suspect i may have posted the mashup instead of the final product.

                 I think I was trying to explain to Robert what the Conclusion of the article about the Arcus Foundation was and had quotes about disorders etc from the Mayo Clinic.

                 I am more or less certain I pasted the mashup and for that I am sorry. I have been really good over the last few weeks with quoting references
                 I will slow down.
                 • Incognito …

                   6 April 2023 at 9:30 pm

                   quotes from Mayo Clinic
                 • weka …

                   6 April 2023 at 9:33 pm

                   No.

                   It's not my job to sort your mess out. If you want to change, then change your behaviour. If you don't, then you risk losing comments going forward.

                   It's mindblowing that you think I would help you repost those links, but it does tell me you aren't taking the problem seriously and that you don't respect the times of mods.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 April 2023 at 9:42 pm

                     I did delete the idea I had of reposting…….just wanted a clue and got there myself.
                   • Incognito …

                     6 April 2023 at 9:44 pm

                     I’ve told & taught myself to wait for the 10 mins to be up before I respond to a comment, as they sometimes edit their comment within that time (which is what it is there for) and sometimes they do this because they’ve seen an early response. I do about a zillion things all at once, so it is not too hard for me 😉
                   • weka []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:47 pm

                     it doesn’t make any difference. Shanreagh’s thinking went to how to fix and redo her post, rather than to changing her behaviour around quoting without linking or how this might impact on mods. I don’t think I care about the edits, because they just made it worse.
                   • Incognito []

                     6 April 2023 at 9:50 pm

                     Some days it does feel like I’m working two jobs.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   6 April 2023 at 9:40 pm

                   I won't bother to redo this as it better to ignore the type of comment that led to the mucked up post rather than respond to it.

                   Cheers
   • Molly 9.4

     6 April 2023 at 11:49 am

     "Does anyone have anything like an accurate number of people who may or may not have a dick who are the problem."

     Yes, previous to the recent adoption of Self-ID in many countries, this research indicates the number of transwomen who undergo surgery is about 5 – 13%. (See Table 1)

     That means about 87 – 95% retain their male genitalia.

     https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

     I believe this figure has been discussed on TS before, but what is also relevant is that self-id may increase the number of those men identifying as women without any changes at all, and so this percentage – as well as the number – will likely increase rather than reduce.

     For an indication of what self-ID means, I will resist the temptation to post the more prurient examples, but instead will post this critique of Alex Drummond who was a Stonewall representative at the time he made his video. The arrogance and degradation of women is apparent to me, while delivered in such a matter-of-fact tone – but not perhaps to all:

     https://youtu.be/JkK7zisjoDk

     Kit asked a couple of days ago:

     "Shanreagh and Weka – do you see any similarity between the reasons you give for why trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms, and those given in the 20th century for why women of colour should not share the same bathroom as white women?"

     Safety is only one of the reasons women value single-sex spaces.

     But no-one provides any statistical evidence for the questions I posed, which I will duplicate here:

     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943590

     Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:

     1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.

     2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.

     3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.

     4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?

     a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)

     b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)

     c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)

     d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)

     e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.

     Believe it or not, there are more considerations to take into account in regards to the removal of single-sex provisions.

     But it appears that many men will strongly advocate for men with gender identities to have access to women's spaces, without even touching on the reasons why the single-sex provisions hold real and quantifiable value.

     The same opinionated men will also studiously avoid any discussion of why they will not ensure that male single-sex spaces are safe for those same trans-identified men.
     • left for dead 9.4.1

       8 April 2023 at 4:49 pm

       Molly,,

       I'm greatly sadden to find this brave woman has died.
       • Molly 9.4.1.1

         8 April 2023 at 4:52 pm

         Yes, many grieved at her early passing.
10. Ad 10

    4 April 2023 at 3:35 pm

    Adrian it was a census question obviously so you won't have the uncertainty for long.
    • SPC 10.1

      4 April 2023 at 5:36 pm

      Except Speak up for Women ran a campaign against answering the gender question …so accurate information as to the difference between born women and identifying as female is going to be negated.

      Classic own goal from those claiming the difference is important.
      • Shanreagh 10.1.1

        4 April 2023 at 6:45 pm

        I think you have missed the point here.

        The point was that planning for populations needs accurate information on both male and females ie sex rather than gender. Sex is immutable. I may be subject as one of the other sex to sex derived illnesses. Gender is a construct. I could identify as a cat and my gender might be Brazilian cat. Do I expect that NZ will be able to use this to derive figures on illnesses relating to my sex?

        The gender question was unclear and the info it may have derived may have fitted into the GIGO category.

        https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/02/26/how-to-answer-gender-questions-on-census-2023/

        It does have the reference to the the actual SUFW rationale.
        • SPC 10.1.1.1

          4 April 2023 at 6:50 pm

          There were two questions.

          Only by answering both is there useful information, as to the difference between the numbers born female than otherwise.

          Opposition to the gender question was pointless politicking.

          The actual problem was not requiring everyone to answer both.
          • Nic the NZer 10.1.1.1.1

            4 April 2023 at 7:13 pm

            "The actual problem was not requiring everyone to answer both."

            lol. Please never get involved in actual national politics. This would have totally politicised the census and effectively associated the government with (in effect) forcing everybody to declare pronouns on their email signature.
            • SPC 10.1.1.1.1.1

              4 April 2023 at 7:22 pm

              This is how stupid this debate gets.

              People start claiming filling out a census form has something to do with pronouns on emails.

              Yeah na, no just wrong.

              The census could allow male female and x (as the passport does) for sex

              The census could allow same gender identity as birth sex (some people object to the cisgender term itself), or otherwise (and allow people to self identify any otherwise).

              Then it provides some information about society.
              • Nic the NZer …

                4 April 2023 at 7:32 pm

                Members of my family refused to answer that question because they considered it nonsense. I answered it, not that I think it conveys useful information for almost any statistical purpose.

                So just what do you expect the census administrator should do in "requiring everyone to answer both"?

                Also how is that any different from the actual census question?
                • SPC …

                  4 April 2023 at 7:44 pm

                  It's a legal requirement to fill it out and that means answering the questions asked.

                  Not that different no – as I said some people do not using the word cisgender (as some do not like the word Pakeha etc, they do not like minority rights activists and or minorities defining mainstream language or naming things).

                  The useful information comes from those who identify different to their birth sex – as to spaces for those not identifying as “cisgender”.

                  It will be there despite those not answering the question.
                  • Visubversa …

                    4 April 2023 at 7:56 pm

                    How useful is it to know that someone identifies as
                    Moongender? Their sex does not change. The question belonged with the one on religion.
                    • SPC …

                      4 April 2023 at 8:03 pm

                      There is a question on religion in the census form.

                      Your point?

                      Do atheists get to say there should be no question about religion?

                      No they get to state no religion.

                      You had the right to state you identified as same gender as birth sex. Thus no divergence in identity from birth sex.

                      Do Christian heterosexuals get the right to stop others identifying as same sex attracted?

                      No.

                      That leads to recognition of same sex relationships, civil unions and same sex marriages.

                      It's sort of sad when people deny others their identity.
                    • Shanreagh …

                      4 April 2023 at 8:11 pm

                      Oh I hadn't thought of Moongender or Lunagender. That sounds much more settled than Brazilian cat or Australian dinosaur…..all the lovely shimmery light and then it has implications for fecundity and planting by the moon, the tides, menstruation.

                      I'll change from now on I'm a Lunagender

                      https://gender.fandom.com/wiki/Lunagender

                      Also adult female human being.

                      Moongender seems more male oriented.

                      Agree better with the religious beliefs question

                      I don’t agree with your points SPC. You seem to think that gender will tell you about ‘same sex relationships, civil unions and same sex marriages..’

                      It won’t.
                      If we needed to know these things we would ask them under the questions on married, single etc.
                    • SPC …

                      4 April 2023 at 9:02 pm

                      You seem to think that gender will tell you about ‘same sex relationships, civil unions and same sex marriages..
                      If we needed to know these things we would ask them under the questions on married, single etc.

                      I would have thought that both ones, birth sex and ones gender identity would have an impact on relationships with others, including sexual ones. But do not relate specifically to being in partnerships.
          • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1.2

            4 April 2023 at 7:59 pm

            Did you actually read the material I linked to?

            Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?
            • SPC 10.1.1.1.2.1

              4 April 2023 at 8:19 pm

              Do you? Your point?
              • Shanreagh …

                4 April 2023 at 8:40 pm

                Some of the points you are making do not reflect the SUFW case for changing the census or not replying.

                Gender is not really very useful. One can identify as a vegan or lunargender or a cat today and yet tomorrow you might be something else say bi. Gender is fluid. Religion can be fluid also, perhaps not as fluid as gender could be.

                Gender is not an extension of sex or living or marital position.
                • SPC …

                  4 April 2023 at 9:12 pm

                  People were asked to (census) identify by current name and current gender ID (people can change their gender on their passport without changing their birth certificate) and then to state their birth sex (historic information and their chromosome base obviously).

                  People are now identified by gender, not birth sex.

                  Yes gender can be fluid, but only a small minority would say non binary or gender queer, let alone transgender negating birth sex – so most of the time it's the same.

                  Society includes all by going with gender identity. It's a function of democratic citizenship to include all.
                  • Shanreagh …

                    4 April 2023 at 9:45 pm

                    OK. I think I'll start a movement tomorrow to say that the animals we now know as cats shall henceforth be known as stoats,

                    I know the misidentification may mean the former cats may be killed as being stoats and stoats will run around the backyard claiming they are cats.

                    Cats have a better reputation than stoats and calling stoats cats may help with being stoats being linked with a good reputation and help with self esteem issues. Of course nothing about this is fixed and vets will be able to issue certificates changing one to the other and vice versa on demand.

                    Animal society includes all by going with changeable identities/species.

                    It's a function of the animal kingdom to include all in whatever combination of species or desired species. vets have had special training as misidentifying a stoat as a cat can cause trauma to either and damage to the vet by instant reprisal.

                    Society includes all by going with gender identity. It's a function of democratic citizenship to include all.

                    A recipe for chaos SPC driven by 3-5% of the population. It sounds despotic rather than democratic.

                    If it ain't broke don't fix it. Possibly too late but don't make it any worse than it needed to be.
                    • The Al1en …

                      4 April 2023 at 9:53 pm

                      “Animals don't hate, and we're supposed to be better than them.”

                      ― Elvis Presley

                      https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/hate#:~:text=“Darkness%20cannot%20drive%20out%20darkness,only%20love%20can%20do%20that.”&text=“The%20opposite%20of%20love%20is%20not%20hate%2C%20it%27s%20indifference.
                    • SPC …

                      4 April 2023 at 10:07 pm

                      The same talk about animals occurred when same sex relations, civil unions and marriages were discussed.
                    • Shanreagh …

                      4 April 2023 at 10:22 pm

                      I don't recall animals in relation to same sex marriages…my post was an extended and not very good attempt to send up the idea that changing the name would change the things that matter.

                      Sex is immutable

                      Sex is binary but for a few

                      Sex is the building block that enables health, welfare, education etc to be planned for, delivered and then assessed before we begin the cycle over and again.

                      This is not possible with gender.
                    • The Al1en …

                      4 April 2023 at 10:28 pm

                      https://www.politico.com/story/2010/03/hayworth-could-marry-your-horse-034424

                      "Former Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-Ariz.) said Sunday that the expansion of state laws allowing gay marriage could lead to people marrying horses."

                      And it caused earthquakes apparently

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/comments-by-brian-tamaki-blaming-gays-murderers-and-sinners-for-earthquakes-called-ridiculous/5BBK77ZXCW7FE2VZSZAUYM22JE/

                      "Tamaki said "sexual perversion" was to blame for natural disasters."
              • Visubversa …

                4 April 2023 at 10:05 pm

                It belongs with religion because there is the same amount of evidence for the possession of a gendered soul as there is for the possession of an immortal soul. The Census question on religion allowed you to say that you have no religion. The question on gender did not. Also gender has been elevated to a Category 1 question along with sex and age. 2 of these things are real and have an evidential basis, the third is a belief.
                • SPC …

                  4 April 2023 at 10:08 pm

                  Evidence for the existence of transgender women, not born woman exists.
                  • Shanreagh …

                    4 April 2023 at 10:23 pm

                    Ok fire away.
                  • Michael P …

                    6 April 2023 at 7:18 am

                    "Evidence for the existence of transgender women, not born woman exists."

                    As it is, this comment is ambiguous. Did you mean to post it as it is in which case it could be read to say that there's evidence for the existence of transgender women but no evidence for the existence of born woman women.

                    or did you mean it to read as:

                    "Evidence for the existence of transgender women, who were not born woman exists." in other words men who describe themselves as transgender women exist. (and their gender is probably female if they have used self id laws to change genders)
      • Anker 10.1.2

        5 April 2023 at 2:08 pm

        How can the information be accurate if gender identity cannot be proved, it is merely a belief system that others are entitled to have
      • Michael P 10.1.3

        6 April 2023 at 5:05 am

        You seem to have forgotten that for SUFW as well as the vast majority of people in this country the term "identifying as a female" is not a thing as the vast majority of people still hold the view that there are only 2 genders, male and female, and that just like you can't change sex, you also can't change gender.

        It would seem to me that getting rid of 'gender' boxes in forms (and in everything really) is logical and makes sense. If you can now supposedly self identify your gender and that gender can literally be anything you want, then that makes the word 'gender' kind of redundant as it's not going to be data worth capturing or reporting on. Just because a minority decides they want to change the definition and common understanding of a word such as 'gender' doesn't mean the vast majority have to go along with the nonsense and thankfully the vast majority don't.

        If we just deleted the word gender from the English language a whole lot of problems and issues and toxic ideas would vanish in an instant so not a bad idea?
11. newsense 11

    4 April 2023 at 3:48 pm

    All this faff about lobbyists.

    The rules won’t catch banks or tobacco companies that give jobs to MPs or whose employees become MPs or influential.

    Chris Bishop and the new Auckland mayoralty chief of staff have been merchants of death.

    Simon Power, Brash and John Key took positions with banks.

    Let alone the open power of Canute Groundswell exercises…
    • Belladonna 11.1

      4 April 2023 at 7:01 pm

      Nor will it catch the revolving door of Ministerial staffers rotating in and out of employment with lobbying firms.
      I'm sure we can all see the dangers of this – their staff are the people the Ministers trust as gatekeepers…..
12. newsense 12

    4 April 2023 at 3:53 pm

    That LibertyBelle has been around trying to sell anyone timeshares?

    Or that the idea or purpose of Wayne Brown’s tenure is anything other than a good old fashioned increase in the speed of wealth transferring to the already wealthy from everyone below?

    Chip the glasses, crack the plates, it’s what those poor lefties hates…
13. weka 13

    4 April 2023 at 8:28 pm

    you’re objection is to the use of the word Nazi in Nic’s comment?

    You keep on insisting PP says the worst possible (most Nazi) things, things which we should not tolerate being heard in the NZ public even, and I’m just wondering how bad they could actually be.

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