Open Mike 07/12/2016

153 comments on “Open Mike 07/12/2016 ”

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1. Pete George 1

   7 December 2016 at 6:27 am

   Every post here since Key’s announcement on Monday has been boo-Key and boo-National.

   National are vulnerable. The public will have an extra look to see who they think can run Government competently. But I see mostly see Opposition mud flying, still. It seems like a stupid first impression post-Key to present to the public.

   If opposition parties, and supporting online forums like The Standard, want to take advantage of National’s vulnerability surely they can at least try to look better, rather than worse.

   Is the left capable of being positive?
   • Stunned mullet 1.1

     7 December 2016 at 7:06 am

     This blog and others from the right or left of politics are not the face of a political bloc in NZ – they are the venting and ravings of a few signifying nothing. Most voters will look at those they are voting for and the respective party leaders when casting their vote at the general election not the standard where all authors and the vast majority of commenters have decided how they will vote years out from the election usually due to their entrenched views and personal prejudices
     • save nz 1.1.1

       7 December 2016 at 7:25 am

       @Stunned mullet – yet you still post in to ts….
     • Ad 1.1.2

       7 December 2016 at 8:59 am

       Until Key’s resignation, most voters had already made their minds up.

       He has unsettled both the commercial and political markets sufficiently for the polis to pause and reconsider.
   • Cinny 1.2

     7 December 2016 at 7:12 am

     Pete, maybe you would prefer to read the thoughts of one of the Herald writers on Keys departure… ?

     “I could have chosen to dress up my column today with all sorts of nuanced, insightful, and charitable words about John Key’s departure. It’d be akin to going to someone’s funeral that you consistently bagged – both publicly and privately. Tacky”

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11761381

     The opposition parties were on fire in Parliament yesterday, and I for one am extremely proud of how they have approached this shocking news.

     The statesman like response from the future PM of NZ aka Alpha Andy and Grant Robertson on the day Key announced his resignation spoke volumes. A stark contrast to the negative little personal put downs from the PM whom has quit.

     How about starting the day singing praises about the opposition parties rather than whining about Keys resignation and the fact that the national party is in tatters. Where are your positive stories about the outgoing government in the last few days Pete?
   • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3

     7 December 2016 at 7:25 am

     What a stream of negativity, and what could be more negative than lying about the Opposition’s response to Key’s resignation:

     On behalf of Metiria, the Green Party MPs and the Party, I would like to thank John Key for his eight years of service as Prime Minister,” said Green Party Co-leader James Shaw.

     “No matter your political allegiance, you have to respect someone who chooses to make the personal sacrifices required to be our country’s Prime Minister.”

     John Key has served New Zealand generously and with dedication. Although we may have had our policy differences over the years, I respect the Prime Minister’s decision to stand down.

     “I can empathise with his reasons. Politics requires much sacrifice. We may all be politicians, but not all our lives are politics.

     “The Prime Minister has served New Zealand through times of considerable global instability, and will leave politics proud of his achievements. I wish him and his family the best for the future.

     “Labour is ready and willing to contest the 2017 general election. We will present a credible choice for people and look forward to the opportunity to contest the election on our values and vision for New Zealand.”

     Why does Petty George tell so many desperate unoriginal lies? Does anyone care?
     • marty mars 1.3.1

       7 December 2016 at 8:10 am

       He does it for attention and no one cares because he is a very shallow thinker.
     • alwyn 1.3.2

       7 December 2016 at 9:45 am

       “On behalf of Metiria”
       Did he talk to Metria before he came out with this statement? It certainly isn’t the approach that Turei was expounding in her mean spirited little contribution in Parliament yesterday.
       Have they decided to play “good cop (Shaw) bad cop (Turei)”?

       The political parties in the Opposition are crazy. They should learn from the way Key behaved after Helen Clark was defeated and stood down after the 2008 election.
       She was defeated. She didn’t matter any more. He didn’t waste even a moment kicking a relic of the past on the side of the road because there was absolutely nothing to be gained.
       Why are Labour and the Green MPs continuing the fight with someone who is retiring. All they do is exhibit their bitter little approach to life. Wait till there is a new National leader, and Prime Minister, and attack them. That is what Key did. He forgot Clark and aimed his fire at the new leader from that moment on. Staying on a path that attacks Key is stupid.

       It doesn’t matter for people who contribute to this website, just as it didn’t matter to people who contributed to attacks on Clark on other sites after she had stood down. They were not MPs and nobody really cared about the mad ravings of a pack of loons, then against Clark or now against Key.
       It is MPs who have to avoid looking like idiots.
       • Cinny 1.3.2.1

         7 December 2016 at 11:24 am

         Hi Alwyn, were you watching yesterday? I noticed a very cohesive group of opposition MP’s in the house yesterday, concentrating their questions on possible nat party leaders.

         3. ANDREW LITTLE to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that “the prices you pay for a house are ridiculous”, given New Zealand house prices have risen by over 50 percent since he made that statement?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b09iWjnarLE

         4. Hon ANNETTE KING to the Minister of Health: Does he expect an estimated 533,000 New Zealanders who did not visit a GP due to cost in the last year to continue to wait for primary care reform which might “form part of a future Budget”, possibly under a different health Minister as stated by him?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUg1JikLdLg

         7. PHIL TWYFORD to the Minister for Social Housing: Does she stand by her statement, “look I can’t guarantee that”, when asked if anyone living in a car can go to a Government agency today and get a roof over their head tonight?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bksgViHJ1MM

         8. RON MARK to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by all his statements?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FNnms6R6T8

         9. DAVID CLENDON to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement to this House that “having surpluses does not mean that the Government can go spending more money on ineffective public services or infrastructure that may not be needed”?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqvLUqaRuWA

         11. STUART NASH to the Minister of Police: Does she think there is any correlation between the closure of over 20 Community Policing Centres and the 13,000 increase in victimisations in the last 12 months; if not, why not?
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMfQ7MtdWkk

         However the debate that followed gave way for all to vent or praise the outgoing PM or in the case of Crusher, Coca Coleman and Dippy a chance to push their own agendas.
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGgIWCeyHiA

         Currently the outgoing government are infighting flat out with a leadership war. And the choices are so sad, I almost feel sorry for Nat voters, almost
         • alwyn 1.3.2.1.1

           7 December 2016 at 11:49 am

           The questions, except for Turei’s one to John Key were the MPs being sensible. They were focussing on now, not on something that has passed

           The speeches in the debate were not. He’s gone. Give up. You couldn’t lay a glove on him while he was PM and there is simply no point in trying to do it now. Have a read of Turei’s speech yesterday in that debate. The words of a bitter twisted woman who is still trying to fight what is yesterday’s war.
           https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20161206_056100000/turei-metiria

           As for your dream of there being a leadership war. Forget it. The National Party hasn’t had a real war since Muldoon came to be leader and even that wasn’t really out in the open.
           • Robert Guyton 1.3.2.1.1.1

             7 December 2016 at 2:35 pm

             “couldn’t lay a glove on him…”

             ’cause, slippery.
             • alwyn …

               7 December 2016 at 4:02 pm

               It isn’t quite the word I would use but still.
               He was, as Chris Trotter pointed out once, the cleverest politician of our generation. He was vastly ahead of anyone else of his time.

               I remember looking at that list of stories blip used to link to. He claimed they were Key’s “lies”. When I checked some of them I found they weren’t lies at all. They may have been carefully composed statements that people “thought” were lies but they weren’t. People tended to read into the things he said meanings that simply weren’t there.

               If you didn’t like him you might say “slippery”. If you did like him, and clearly most New Zealanders do, you would simply say he was a master of his art. The only one in my lifetime who was in the same class was Keith Holyoake.
     • Macro 1.3.3

       7 December 2016 at 4:15 pm

       Well you know – the more you complain – the longer god lets you live 😈
   • Incognito 1.4

     7 December 2016 at 7:32 am

     Is the left capable of being positive?

     Actually, we are on the cusp of something special and at the end of the day I’m relaxed and comfortable about that.

     Is that positive enough for you Pete? Not that this implies in any way or form that I am or speak for “the left” because that’s typically just a lovely meme for people that grapple with reality.
   • Psycho Milt 1.5

     7 December 2016 at 7:44 am

     Is the left capable of being positive?

     Have you stopped beating your wife?
   • Puckish Rogue 1.6

     7 December 2016 at 8:32 am

     M’eh, its a left aligned political website so what do you expect? It’d be a pretty dull place if everyone played nice all of the time.
   • Macro 1.7

     7 December 2016 at 11:24 am

     Pete, if that’s all you can see then you a blinded by the “light”.

     Now let us get on with the rejoicing – because the “evil one” has gone.

     And yes he is evil. Some may think the sun shines from his posterior – but for many* he brought nothing, but hardship and suffering. He was appointed by the people to care for them, (that is the primary role of Government), but like the Levite, he simply walked by on the other side.

     *
     40,000 more unemployed
     41,000 homeless
     300,000 children living in poverty
     foodbank cupboards around the country are now under severe threat of becoming empty as the number of parcels isssued this year doubles.
     Emergency shelters are permanently overflowing.
     the cost of providing shelter for oneself, or ones family, has doubled.
     Wages have risen barely 10% in the same period (if your lucky enough to earn a full time wage) – or stayed the same. Key on the other hand receives twice the renumeration for the “job” as does the British PM.
     Mental health services run down to such an extent, they can no longer care for the vulnerable.
     Our DHBs have been held to the same funding for almost a decade despite rising costs, and can now barely provide critical services, let alone “elective” surgery; and patients are pushed off, or kept off, “waiting” lists to make the statistics look good.
     Schools have been forced from providing education to children and are now mere training centres for a National testing regime that sees our children’s ability falling in comparison with children from other countries. But never mind soon there will be COOL, and they can stay at home and do nothing.
     And those are only the Social Justice Issues of the day.
     Key has overseen the embeggarment of future generations. His largesse to the wealthy has come at the expense of every one else, and the failure to provide for future generations will see him held responsible for a deriliction of duty. NZ’s GHG emmissions have continued to increase as he trashed the ETS, and removed all incentives for saving energy. Our rivers are now cess pits for the dairy industry. Our seas are denuded of their fish, and marine life, and the Tasman Sea is a garbage dump of plastic and flotsum endangering the lives of 50% of sea birds that breed on our Islands. There is virtually nothing that he has not seen deteriorate under his watch, except the bank balances of his mates.

     About the only thing “good” I can say is “GOOD RIDDANCE”
   • Whateva next? 1.8

     7 December 2016 at 1:49 pm

     That’s very negative of you thanks Pete
     • greywarshark 1.8.1

       7 December 2016 at 3:21 pm

       Sacha
       That was such a good story too. And you spoil it with the facts!

       And Pete George fertilises the post and I think 15 comments grew up in his shadow.. He certainly is stimulating. Like an electric shock, he can jerk everybody into a response. Some of them are very detailed and no doubt informative. So that is a positive result.
2. Ad 2

   7 December 2016 at 6:37 am

   Check out that UN Security Council resolution for a Syrian ceasefire: blocked by both Russia and China.

   Interesting tag team.

   I think Russia and China are viewing Trumps isolationist election as a signal to rapidly accelerate their territorial ambition.
   • garibaldi 2.1

     7 December 2016 at 7:35 am

     Bullshit Ad. They are trying to rout ISIS ,which is more than the stupid Yanks could do with their ratbag bunch of unorganised mish mash factions.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:01 am

       The resolution was seeking a ceasefire and was well supported across the Council.
     • TheExtremist 2.1.2

       7 December 2016 at 9:13 am

       “They are trying to rout ISIS..”

       Or not
       http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-strikes-idUSKCN0SF24L20151021
     • Wayne 2.1.3

       7 December 2016 at 9:48 am

       garibaldi,

       To believe that you have to believe the insurgents in Aleppo are ISIS. There is precious little evidence of that.

       In fact Russia virtually ignores ISIS and leaves them to the western coalition.

       Russia is primarily concerned with supporting Assad. All his opponents are therefore fair game so far as the Russians are concerned.
       • Anne 2.1.3.1

         7 December 2016 at 10:21 am

         Russia is primarily concerned with supporting Assad. All his opponents are therefore fair game so far as the Russians are concerned.

         As someone who is far from an expert on the subject – indeed I am normally among the populace who leave such complex discussions to those who know what they’re talking about – I am nevertheless sure your premise that Russia is primarily concerned with supporting Assad is correct. But I will go further and posit the theory that their support has less to do with Assad himself, and more to do with the desire to gain dominance of the Middle East oil supply chain. And of course America’s basic premise for being so intimately involved in the region is exactly the same. That is, both sides are fighting to gain dominance over the same supply chain.

         The above will be seen by some as simplistic, but I venture to suggest that the moment technology produces an acceptable and easily produced alternative fuel hey presto… both sides will clear out of the Middle East and leave them to their own devices which is precisely what most of the M.E countries want to see happen.
         • inspider 2.1.3.1.1

           7 December 2016 at 2:29 pm

           Syria is the wrong country to choose if you want to dominate the oil trade; it has no significant oil and, while close to Iraq, is not on a major oil trade route. Also Russia is a major producer in its own right so could influence the market more effectively by altering its production. As could the US.
           • Wayne 2.1.3.1.1.1

             7 December 2016 at 6:08 pm

             inspider,

             Agreed about Syria and oil.

             However, Syria has long provided a Mediterranean port and two airbases to Russia. Without these, Russia’s presence in the Middle East and the Med would be very much reduced.

             Russia is generally hemmed in by geography. All the ‘Stans and deserts to the South. Mostly hostile Europeans to the West. Ice to the North and a bleak Pacific coast on the East.

             The Black Sea is their easiest access to much of the world and Syria figures in that. Less about oil, more about centuries old geo-politics.
             • Anne …

               7 December 2016 at 6:59 pm

               Fair enough Wayne but lets balance the situation. Whilst America has oil wells of it’s own, it is also dependent upon M.E. oil to cover the balance of it’s needs. That is my understanding anyway.

               I read an analysis by Robert Kennedy Jr. a month or two ago where he talked of a major pipe-line still on the drawing board which both East and West are currently attempting to gain control over by way of the proposed route it will take. I can’t remember the exact details but it certainly brought home to me the fundamental essence of most of the warring factions… and it is really all about oil.
         • Foreign waka 2.1.3.1.2

           7 December 2016 at 6:57 pm

           It is the Kurdish population that is playing a major role in the alliances chosen by Russia, Turkey and the US.
           This is a comment by Dr Ismail Besikci:
           “why did the British and the French decided to erase Kurdistan from the map and deny the Kurds existence by parting Kurdistan into four between Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria?”
           This is as much about access to the Mediteranian as it is about a deal that has a Kurdistan to be kept from forming (Kurds refer to their ancestry back in 600BC, Arabs mentioned Kurds in the 7th century as nomadic people) Turkey plays a big role in that.
       • adam 2.1.3.2

         7 December 2016 at 12:06 pm

         And then most of the time it’s the Kurd’s doing the hard yards on the ground.

         I read recently, and can’t find the piece. That Russia is mainly avoiding ISIS so as not to rack up the Muslim at home. Chechnya has been, and still is a major thorn for Russia.
   • Psycho Milt 2.2

     7 December 2016 at 7:48 am

     I don’t think the Chinese will be viewing Trump’s agenda as isolationist, not after the “Fuck you” messages he’s been sending them the last week. Still, the fact they’re not chuffed with him might also explain that veto.
     • Ad 2.2.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:11 am

       China has a shot at a regional trade agreement in 2017 excluding all the environmental and labour controls of TPPA such as they were.

       China gets Trump as the US eclipse it is, and is making its own space fast.
   • mauī 2.3

     7 December 2016 at 8:36 am

     Keep watching MSNBC and CNN Ad, Hillary cant lose from here and there’s russian airplanes just off the coast.
     • Ad 2.3.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:02 am

       Not quite sure your meaning there.
3. Cinny 3

   7 December 2016 at 7:27 am

   Political broadcast brought to you via exiting entertainer Paul Henry interviewing Judith this morning…

   Crusher says….

   She will make Pike a memorial tomb.

   She will suck up to Winny, says he is one of the best politicians who has ever been in Parliament and wants more options with support parties.

   She’s not into English, he’s been preventing an increase in the police force apparently

   Has no faith in Coleman

   With a wavering voice says she wants more police

   IMHO she doesn’t appear to be very confident in her chances. If her leadership bid fails will she form a breakaway party? Interesting times ahead.

   PS Merry Christmas Paddy, maybe the Nation should do a special episode in the weekend, you’ll be bumming a bit that last week was your Christmas final. And you thought the Trump election was the highlight of your year lololol been thinking of you, happy for you, i don’t like you, but i’m happy for you. What a year huh?
4. Carolyn_nth 4

   7 December 2016 at 7:46 am

   Rachel Stewart pulls no punches in saying honestly what she thinks of John key. She tells of voting Nats for Key’s first term – I’m constantly surprised that people couldn’t tell Key was slippery as from the getgo.

   Stewart fell out of support for Key over water quality, and it was all down hill from there, through rising inequality to tasteless media stunts and women being relegated to cheerleaders.

   Stewart’s column: John Key era one giant facepalm”

   A good money man? Key’s bold and brassy belief that he managed the Global Financial Crisis well is, shall we say, deluded. He got lucky. Pure and simple.

   I’ll wager that within the next 12 months, and well before the 2017 election, our economy will match the global outlook perfectly. It’ll be munted. He is less an economic guru and more a tinny bastard, frankly.

   I say this in complete awe at Key’s uncanny ability to ride the rollercoaster of pure providence. Despite the poor getting poorer, and the rich getting richer, he somehow managed to convince the wider electorate that he was a financial whizz – as opposed to the money trading gambler he ultimately is.
   • Paul 4.1

     7 December 2016 at 9:18 am

     Her three reasons for disliking Key’s government.

     1. Destruction of waterways and lack of care for the environment.
     2. Mismanagement of the economy so we have become a very unequal society.
     3. His gutter behaviour towards women.
   • Chch_chiquita 4.2

     7 December 2016 at 9:27 am

     This – “He seemed to me to care only for running New Zealand like a huge corporation by squeezing every last dollar out of it – no matter the downstream consequences.”
     A country isn’t a corporation and shouldn’t be run like one. Hell, even a corporation shouldn’t be run like corporations are run these days. Every business should care about the environment and about the people it employs and their well being.
5. Cinny 5

   7 December 2016 at 7:53 am

   Questions please

   Do the Nat MP’s ask their constituents whom they feel would be the best choice in the race for leader of the national party and then vote accordingly?

   Or do the MP’s vote according to their own wants and needs?

   It just doesn’t seem very democratic to me, I’d be a bit pissy i think if i was a nat party member and did not have a say in whom the leader of the party i belong to should be.
   • Carolyn_nth 5.1

     7 December 2016 at 8:04 am

     From the the National Party Rules

     Leader
     82.
     (a) The Parliamentary Section shall appoint its Leader as soon as
     practicable after each General Election.

     (b) If at any time the leadership of the Parliamentary Section falls vacant,
     the Parliamentary Section shall appoint a Leader to fill such vacancy.
     Notwithstanding Rule 82 (a), the Parliamentary Section may at any
     time between General Elections confirm or change its Leader.

     (c) The Leader of the Parliamentary Section shall, upon receiving the
     approval of the Board, become the Leader of the Party. The Board shall
     consider such approval as soon as practicable after the appointment
     by the Parliamentary Section of its Leader.
     • Cinny 5.1.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:09 am

       Thank you Carolyn much appreciated
   • Wayne 5.2

     7 December 2016 at 9:50 am

     As the rules indicate it is the MP’s who decide. Otherwise how could it be done in a week.

     However, I am pretty sure the MP’s will be thinking who will be the most effective in the next election and will be taking more than a few soundings on that very point.
     • Cinny 5.2.1

       7 December 2016 at 11:29 am

       Interesting listening to talk back, some are ringing concerned at the procedure, fascinating talk back this week.
6. Tautoko Mangō Mata 6

   7 December 2016 at 7:58 am

   I hope that some of those people who voted for John Key will reflect on what he actually did or didn’t do for NZ and start to consider the pressing issues facing this country and the world. That so many people could fail to see past the fawning MSM smokescreen for 8 years has never failed to amaze me. I also hope that those journalists who were “seduced’ by Key’s “friendliness” will take the opportunity to look back at their own contribution to the distraction he provided for a government that failed to deal with the pressing issues apart from a few superficial interventions. An alternative government could have made quite a difference to the current housing situation, reduced the foreign ownership of land, removed the tax haven status and worked with the Pike River families in a more compassionate manner had not the “show us the money” , the dirty politics/Ede/Slater feeding of MSM clouded the public’s view of the real issues.

   The purpose of journalism is thus to provide citizens with the information they need to make the best possible decisions about their lives, their communities, their societies, and their governments.
   https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/journalism-essentials/what-is-journalism/purpose-journalism/
   • framu 6.1

     7 December 2016 at 8:20 am

     i hope for similar – but its been a cult of personality for years.
     And with all cults, when your in it, its hard to see it from the outside
7. Andre 7

   7 December 2016 at 8:00 am

   How fake news has trashed the old idea of checking facts before publishing and tried to replace it with the idea that any kind of nutso raving is truth until someone else proves it wrong (to the nutso raver’s standards).

   https://thinkprogress.org/the-most-dangerous-thing-about-fake-news-sites-is-not-what-they-say-but-how-they-say-it-f7bd89501028#.tl759hzes
   • Andre 7.1

     7 December 2016 at 9:12 am

     This backgrounder makes Comet Ping Pong sound like an interesting place. Also explains why malicious kooks would want to use it as a centrepiece of a fake news story.

     http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/12/06/comet_ping_pong_is_a_haven_for_weirdos_and_now_a_target.html
   • Tautoko Mangō Mata 7.2

     7 December 2016 at 10:21 am

     Fake News-

     Murtaza Hussain ‏@MazMHussain 23h23 hours ago
     2003: Rifle-toting Americans barge into Iraq after reading viral Fake News story about weapons of mass destruction.
     • Andre 7.2.1

       7 December 2016 at 10:26 am

       Yep, more right wingers creating fake news with disastrous consequences. With not enough attention being paid to Hans Blix and his inspection team fact-checking and saying there’s nothing there.
     • Molly 7.2.2

       7 December 2016 at 12:14 pm

       +100
       Had the same thought, but not the energy to be as succinct as you. Thanks for doing so.
   • One Two 7.3

     7 December 2016 at 12:39 pm

     ‘Fake News’ is repackaged ‘Conspiracy Theory’ for the catch and dispatch crew

     Nothing more!

     Which of your ‘reliable sources’ influenced you most to parrot the latest narrative for them, Andre?
     • Andre 7.3.1

       7 December 2016 at 1:21 pm

       The ego explores the progressive expansion of self-knowledge.
8. Puckish Rogue 8

   7 December 2016 at 8:29 am

   Ok so prediction time

   Bill English will be the next PM but it will be close, very close with Jude so close in fact that I wouldn’t be at all surprised if theres a coup a year or so into Englishs reign, obviously it will be much earlier if English loses the next election

   Having said that I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Jude managed to take the leadership of English

   If I could pick I’d pick Coleman as he’s the freshest (or least most unknown) face and being a medical doctor is not exactly a bad thing to have on ones CV but he won’t get near the leadership
   • Robert Guyton 8.1

     7 December 2016 at 9:07 am

     Prediction time?
     Cut’n’run Key will be seen as shallower and shallower as time passes.
     Cigar-smoke Coleman will be unable to hide his arrogance.
     Crusher Collins will be unable to shake off the Slater on her back.
     Boring Bill will fail to rid himself of his Double-Dipton title.

     You must feel bereft, Pucky, and appalled by the present state of affairs.
     • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:21 am

       Its not ideal but lets say National lose 7-8% over Key leaving, that leaves National on approx. 40%, I’d suggest NZFirst might gain as much as 3-4% of that which puts NZFirst well and truly over 10%

       Jude would have no issues working with Winston and, probably, vice versa so the most logical outcome is a National/NZFirst government in 2017 and every other party on the outside unless Winston wants them in

       Not sure how Winston and English get on though so its certainly made the upcoming election more interesting
       • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1

         7 December 2016 at 9:31 am

         “Its not ideal”

         Ha ha ha ha ha!

         No. It’s not ideal for the likes of you and other Key-adorers. In fact, it’s THE WORST POSSIBLE THING, and that’s, as you say, not ideal. For you. For others, myself included, this is High Humour and Pure Oxygen to the Soul 🙂 Now, you are reduced to trying to build something from a pile of fetid goop, relatively speaking, given that previously, you (believed) you were spinning with gold. How quickly that precious metal turned to straw. You must feel betrayed, as indeed you were. Key’s smiled as he assassinated National and the hopes of his sycophants such as your pucky self. These are dark days for you, Pucky, and all you can do now is try to make purses from sow’s ears. Good luck, ol’ chappy!
         • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1.1

           7 December 2016 at 9:59 am

           I thought you might appreciate that 🙂

           “These are dark days for you, Pucky, and all you can do now is try to make purses from sow’s ears”

           Yes its this exactly, we could sit around and go into mourning and think the worst has happened and we should all just give up but that won’t achieve anything and would almost certainly guarantee an election loss

           Or we could see what we’re left with and go from there and it looks like there’s now no real impediment to National and Winston combining that that’s a…positive I guess

           Its not what I (or anyone) would have wanted but sometimes you have to play the hand you’re dealt and National did manage to win one or two elections without John Key and I dare say they’ll be able to do it again

           I suppose if ones trying to look positive I’d say that John Key has the left the party in the high 40s and there won’t be a bye-election needed, which is something a certain ex-Labour leader maybe should have looked at doing
           • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.1.1

             7 December 2016 at 10:28 am

             Sitting around, mourning…yes, there’ll be a lot of that going on, Pucky, and more of it to come for your horrid crew who over the past 8 years have been crowing from the top of the dunghill you now discover is all thart remains for you. You had a merry trickster as your star and he’s dumped on you all from his great height – what treachery! How neatly and heartlessly he’s slid his dagger into the heart of his party and his supporters! Smiling Assassin indeed – did you think you were exempt? What I see now, is Mr Little, solid and trustworthy, established and supported, generously suppressing his delight at Key’s feckless knee-capping of the Right, eyes fixed on his up-coming win in 2017 – Little’s played it perfectly, as he’s played you and your gutted team. A marvelous week for the Left, Pucky, and the first of many.
             • Puckish Rogue …

               7 December 2016 at 10:35 am

               Well leaving National in the high 40s and with the door fully open for NZFirst is not a bad position to be in

               I know you don’t like my predictions but I predict that after the next general election National will still be in power and I think its now going to be National/NZFirst

               Who do you think will make up the next government?
         • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1.1.2

           7 December 2016 at 10:12 am

           “trying to build something from a pile of fetid goop, ”

           Like the golem…

           “In Jewish folklore, a golem (/ˈɡoʊləm/ goh-ləm; Hebrew: גולם‎‎) is an animated anthropomorphic being that is magically created entirely from inanimate matter (specifically clay or mud). The word was used to mean an amorphous, unformed material in Psalms and medieval writing.[1]

           The most famous golem narrative involves Judah Loew ben Bezalel, the late-16th-century rabbi of Prague. There are many tales differing on how the golem was brought to life and afterwards controlled.”

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

           Jewish folklore is spattered with tales of golem failing to obey the will of their controllers and running amok….creating havoc and disorder…

           Shalom.
           • greywarshark 8.1.1.1.2.1

             7 December 2016 at 10:26 am

             Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series features allusions to many beliefs and weaves them into his stories. The golems appear particularly in Feet of Clay. The ideas about them seem to have been carried further into the thinking about how robots could be limited in their free will by Asimov.

             This is from wiki –
             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golems_%28Discworld%29

             http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Golems
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               7 December 2016 at 11:07 am

               Yes…some may cast doubt upon the value of fiction and folklore, but they both have their roots in the vast arena of human experience over the ages.

               I’ve always seen golem as a metaphor for the potential of one’s creation to go beyond one’s control.

               Especially when the quality of raw material for that creation is less than optimal.

               When I have the time I will read my way through Pratchett’s work, perhaps there is a good starting point?
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 7 December 2016 at 11:21 am

                 Sounds more like Frankensteins monster in that case
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   7 December 2016 at 12:05 pm

                   “Sounds more like Frankensteins monster in that case”

                   Variations on the theme PR, variations on the theme…
                   • Puckish Rogue …

                     7 December 2016 at 12:24 pm

                     True true
               • greywarshark …

                 7 December 2016 at 12:14 pm

                 Good to talk with you Rosemary. Yes Terry P was a good and funny writer and man. Also I have started reading Ellis Peters who wrote a series around Cadfael the monk who was sort of an ideal man that I think some women writers like to bring to life and imagine stories around. He lives in the 1100s and she writes vividly about that time and I think has the historical background and the culture of that time probably well covered.

                 While we are in these dire straits in the world I am interested in what people are, under all our layers of civilisation and poncy clothes and cars and high-heeled shoes. I’m looking for nobility and soul and clever use of our machiavellian minds and love and fascination with and for each other. Things I have never bothered thinking about before but now I see clearly how humans have trouble learning from past errors and am brought to the question of what did my birth father die for in 1944 WW2, which we don’t seem to have transcended, then what are we? It seems to me that there is an insect brain in us, along with other primitive inherent cognition.

                 This is a bit heavy but when one starts looking into the void as is happening now, then it makes ya think doesn’t it.
                 (Funny just as I was closing off – Puckish Rogue’s astute comment dame up Sounds more like Frankensteins monster in that case
   • Cinny 8.2

     7 December 2016 at 9:14 am

     Crusher is promoting working with NZ First, what is the general feeling within the outgoing government towards working with Winny?

     Is she wanting to work with Winny because she has no new policy idea’s apart from more police?
     • BM 8.2.1

       7 December 2016 at 9:20 am

       Probably guarantees another two terms.

       How’s that make you feel another 7 years of National?

       http://iforce.co.nz/i/oxzgglw5.1rg.jpg
       • Cinny 8.2.1.1

         7 December 2016 at 11:27 am

         Dear BM… what can I say but…

         http://68.media.tumblr.com/a9e157e5b1b96078d1e7f41e93296e9f/tumblr_nk2pf5Z2qY1s7uqdjo4_250.gif
     • alwyn 8.2.2

       7 December 2016 at 10:57 am

       “she has no new policy idea’s apart from more police”.
       Don’t say that Cinny.
       If you give her the credit Little, Andrew will have a hissy fit. He’ll be tearing up the carpet and complaining that it was HIS idea and that she is stealing it.
       I can hear the wails from here. “Tt’s not fair, it’s not fair, it’s not fair ……..”
       • Cinny 8.2.2.1

         7 December 2016 at 11:27 am

         I can hear Winston laughing hard at her attempts to seduce him
         • alwyn 8.2.2.1.1

           7 December 2016 at 11:33 am

           “attempts to seduce him”.

           Please, spare me. Some things just shouldn’t have to be thought of.

           However, have you ever heard Winston laugh? He lasts about 2 seconds and then ends wheezing furiously. Far too many cigarettes to manage a laugh any more.
           • garibaldi 8.2.2.1.1.1

             7 December 2016 at 5:03 pm

             Exactly alwyn. Don’t rely on Winston being up to it… a year is a long time when you have his self imposed health problems.
   • save nz 8.3

     7 December 2016 at 9:28 am

     Bombers got some great descriptions on the Nat candidates on TDB – (he sadly holds back on Collins however, the worst candidate in my view a mash up of Trump, Hitler, Imelda Marcos and Thatcher with the Enron accountants, rolled into one body )

     BILL ENGLISH – A RELIGIOUS FANATIC
     “I wouldn’t be surprised if he whips himself to sleep nightly. English desperately needed Key because English has all the charm and personal warmth of a road accident. Key was the smiling vacant face while English spent time privatising state housing, expanding the neoliberal welfare state and pushing for mass surveillance of beneficiaries.”

     COLEMAN – DALEK
     “The Minister of Wheeze, Dr Croak has a voice honied by years of cigarettes and stepping on poor peoples dreams. Possibly the most hopeless Minister ever, he did a shit job with Broadcasting and he’s a joke in Health. He wouldn’t publicly eat the cheap slop he was forcing hospital patients to eat and had the audacity to privately eat it and tweet about how yummy it was.”

     “Judith Collins – the crypto-fascist”

     http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/12/07/a-religious-fanatic-a-crypto-fascist-and-a-dalek-these-are-our-choices-for-prime-minister-of-nz/
   • Cinny 8.4

     7 December 2016 at 11:31 am

     Okies I predict, English will get it and National will lose next election and Judith might possibly create a break away party.
     • saveNZ 8.4.1

       7 December 2016 at 1:52 pm

       Nope Collins will just kick out English as PM when she sees her chance – no break away party for the Natz – they are too lazy to break away and too clueless to start a party from scratch.
9. AsleepWhileWalking 9

   7 December 2016 at 8:42 am

   Well well well. That was taken down quick yesterday.

   Must be something in those “conspiracy theories”.
   • Puckish Rogue 9.1

     7 December 2016 at 8:46 am

     ?
   • Trey 9.2

     7 December 2016 at 9:02 am

     ????
   • Paul 9.3

     7 December 2016 at 2:57 pm

     Yes.
     It looks dodgy as.
10. Rosemary McDonald 10

    7 December 2016 at 8:46 am

    I have been wondering just how deep the divisions within the National Party are over the issue of legalising euthanasia.

    There have been numerous attempts by from both left and right over the years to facilitate assisted dying. This year has seen a high profile court case and a continuing exhaustive select committee hearing with over 20,000 submissions.

    Despite my personal well founded reservations, I honestly thought that this time the issue would get over the line and the syringes would sharpened and extra stocks of ‘blue juice’ ordered.

    But no…despite having fully supported Lecretia Seales, John Key announced a month ago that…

    “There is zero chance of Government introducing legislation to legalise euthanasia even if an inquiry strongly recommends it, ”

    The reason given…”Key said he personally supported euthanasia. He would not take the step himself, but he believed others should be able to.

    However, there was strong opposition to it within the National caucus, he said.

    Senior members of the Cabinet such as Bill English and Gerry Brownlee have previously voted against bills which would have made euthanasia legal.”

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/john-key-no-chance-of-govt-legalising-euthanasia/

    There is a real taste for physician assisted dying and the loud protagonists, although they dismiss the concerns of those who would be most at risk from misuse of such a facility, seemed to be winning.

    So why the sudden back off from Key…who’s fair physiognomy dominated the Seales’ campaign page?
    • greywarshark 10.1

      7 December 2016 at 3:40 pm

      The politicians are too afraid of thinking deeply about anything because it just creates a precedent, and why fiddle while everything is going their way. So euthanasia, assisted dying, whatever has no chance with these peabrains.

      And physician-assisted doesn’t have to come into it. If people have signed a document that they wish to do so, gone through legal measures of ensuring they have a will, left messages with a functionary with solicitor’s background if they don’t want to explain it to their children as is the best way, then they should have the right to do so. A proper procedure should be established in compliance with what older people who have thought through the process have decided and worked through with the pollies. Then there will be a peace of mind that life can be lived to the full and not in the end interfered with by forcing it to continue because of others’ beliefs and rigid principles.

      At present there is this shameful and excessive watchfulness trying to prevent people even thinking or hearing about means of death. Police raids, disgusting. Politicians on top of the money heap and controlling, being the gatekeepers against those who wish to determine their own length of incapacity, they are a disgrace to their ‘profession’, incompetents and shallow. And the religious and hospices should stop trying to be Burkes in reverse.
      • garibaldi 10.1.1

        7 December 2016 at 5:06 pm

        In a word Rosemary…. Religion. God wants everyone to suffer apparently.
        • Foreign waka 10.1.1.1

          7 December 2016 at 7:08 pm

          It is people who make other people suffer. Their ego, and dependence of being constantly appreciated. Hang on…. mostly male I think. Yep, looking around the world and it adds up.
11. Morrissey 11

    7 December 2016 at 8:47 am

    MEET THE CANDIDATES
    No. 2: Dr. Jonathan Coleman

    I don’t know if he harasses waitresses or fondles the hair of little girls, but this bloke is a real piece of work.

    The Sunday Star Times reported yesterday that Dr Coleman had been punched after he allegedly blew his cigar smoke at a woman. Dr Coleman said there were two sides to every story, but he did not intend to press charges over the incident.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10413686
    • Cinny 11.1

      7 December 2016 at 9:22 am

      Coca Cole-man, calls himself a Dr, but refuses to tackle the sugar issue even though across the globe other countries are tackling it and identifying it as so harmful. We have a public health system, why would he stretch it further by not addressing sugar?

      Obesity and diabetes rates are obscene in NZ, sugar is an issue. Coleman would rather push through RMA changes and dump fluoride in our water than tackle the sugar issue. By adopting this mind set he shows himself as a Dr of Death.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/287782/the-sugar-filled-elephant-in-the-room
      • Psycho Milt 11.1.1

        7 December 2016 at 10:07 am

        We have a public health system, why would he stretch it further by not addressing sugar?

        Probably because he’s a MD and can identify this wailing about sugar as the kind of simplistic thinking that results in bad policy and unforeseen consequences. Obesity and diabetes are problems of carbohydrates in general, not sucrose in particular, and any minister wanting to deal with them walks into a political minefield – if Coleman doesn’t fancy using his feet as mine detectors, that’s hardly surprising.
        • Cinny 11.1.1.1

          7 December 2016 at 11:44 am

          Psycho, Coca Coleman is a fortune seeker, and not a good listener…

          “A Herald poll last month suggested an overwhelming public desire to introduce a sugar tax, with more than 80% of 11,700 voters in favour of new legislation.”

          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11615519

          “More than 84 per cent of GPs re­sponding to the latest New Zea­land Doctor/IMS fax poll believe a sugar tax should be introduced in this country.
          And nearly 70 per cent reject health minister Jonathan Cole­man’s view of the effect a tax would have on consumption of sugary drinks.”

          http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/news/2016/april-2016/14/sour-on-obesity,-gps-at-odds-with-coleman-over-introducing-a-sugar-tax.aspx

          Don’t you want a PM that listens?
          • Psycho Milt 11.1.1.1.1

            7 December 2016 at 1:21 pm

            To whom? If the answer is “Evidence,” yes I do want a PM who listens. If it’s “Opinion polls,” then meh, not so much. (Not that I want a Nat PM either way, mind.)
          • Bob 11.1.1.1.2

            7 December 2016 at 1:54 pm

            “A Herald poll last month suggested an overwhelming public desire to introduce a sugar tax, with more than 80% of 11,700 voters in favour of new legislation.” “Don’t you want a PM that listens?”
            You just had one for the past 8 years and he was berated for being poll driven. Do you want him back already?

            “More than 84 per cent of GPs re­sponding to the latest New Zea­land Doctor/IMS fax poll believe a sugar tax should be introduced in this country.
            And nearly 70 per cent reject health minister Jonathan Cole­man’s view of the effect a tax would have on consumption of sugary drinks.”
            How many of those GP’s also have an MBA? Interesting that you think they would have a better understanding on the effect taxation on consumption and the wider effects of such a tax (does it just cover sucrose? what about glucose? what if Coke just switched to a fructose based sweetener, do we have to tax fruit then? Would it include pure fruit juices? What about reconstituted fruit juices? All sugars are linked to diabetes, so do we tax everything with any trace of sugar like beer and wine? It would clearly have to cover Balsamic Vinaigrette, Almond Butter, yogurt) than a GP MP with an MBA…
            • Cinny 11.1.1.1.2.1

              7 December 2016 at 2:13 pm

              Need more evidence? Scandinavian countries have such a tax, as does, Mexico, France, Hungary, Britain ..

              Recent evidence further suggests an association between sugar-sweetened beverage consumption and preventable mortality from diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and cancer, with the majority of deaths occurring in low and middle-income countries.. says the WHO.. so why on earth would we not want to do something about this? Something sensible, something that works, just like tobacco tax. Or do you think people will start holding up their local dairy for a red bull?

              Now Coca Coleman is promising more funding for health if he gets the new job.. is that just some kind of excuse for his short comings in looking after the Health Ministry?

              Lots of questions, so let’s make it easy…. A sugary drinks tax or soda tax is a tax or surcharge designed to reduce consumption of drinks with added sugar. Drinks covered under a soda tax often include, carbonated drinks, uncarbonated drinks, sports drinks and energy drinks

              The way I see it is any against such a tax are just pro big business aka big sugar profits, and we all know they make more than enough as it is.

              Let’s be pro the NZ Health System that our taxes pay for, lets look after the people.
              • Bob …

                7 December 2016 at 3:20 pm

                https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/mar/16/will-a-sugar-tax-actually-work-budget
              • Psycho Milt …

                7 December 2016 at 4:33 pm

                Need more evidence? Scandinavian countries have such a tax, as does, Mexico, France, Hungary, Britain ..

                Other countries implementing simplistic policies based on noise from lobbyists isn’t “evidence” – except, maybe, evidence that weak politicians are prey for noisy lobbyists.

                Recent evidence further suggests an association between sugar-sweetened beverage consumption and preventable mortality from diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and cancer…

                Sugar-sweetened beverage consumption and a shitload of other things that are probably more important factors. But instead of looking at the actual causes of obesity and diabetes (which come down to “foods that raise blood glucose levels rapidly”) and seeing what can be done about them, let’s tax sugary drinks because left-wingers hate the Coca Cola corporation. Why, oh why, isn’t Coleman on board with that, I wonder?

                Lots of questions, so let’s make it easy…. A sugary drinks tax or soda tax is a tax or surcharge designed to reduce consumption of drinks with added sugar.

                To serve what purpose? If the purpose is to reduce rates of obesity and diabetes in the population, a sugary-drinks tax is not fit for purpose for several reasons (the tax would have to be very high to actually suppress consumption, there’s extensive scope for unintended consequences, and singling out sugary drinks is pointless – if you look at the glycemic index, white bread and various other foods are actually worse than sucrose for making you fat and diabetic). The actual purpose of such a tax would be to make hand-wringers feel like they were doing something useful, which is not a good justification for new taxes.
                • Bob …

                  7 December 2016 at 4:52 pm

                  PM – Out of interest, do you mind sharing who you voted for at the last election (party vote)?

                  I have just flicked through your comments on OM and I cannot get a read on you. I am guessing either Winston First or ACT…?
                  • garibaldi …

                    7 December 2016 at 5:09 pm

                    Just a question on Coleman. Who would trust a doctor that smokes?
                    • Cinny …

                      8 December 2016 at 7:26 am

                      I agree with you there Garibaldi
                    • Bob …

                      8 December 2016 at 9:25 am

                      Would you apply the same logic to a doctor that drinks alcohol? Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogen also, not to mention processed meat, would you not trust a doctor that drinks beer or eats pepperoni pizza?

                      To answer your question, I would trust a doctor that smokes, or drinks, or eats pepperoni pizza.
                  • Psycho Milt …

                    7 December 2016 at 5:55 pm

                    Labour – I guess I’m from the little-known “surly curmudgeon” faction. That was the first time since 1987, though – was an Alliance voter, then Green, then fuck-who-can-a-left-libertarian-vote-for-now, then back to Labour again on the basis that these days they’re the underdog and need some support. Proud to say I’ve never voted Winston First, although to my shame I did vote ACT once – at the time, they and the Greens were the only ones backing liberty when it came to drugs, anti-terrorism over-reach laws etc and the Greens were anti-science, so I swallowed a big dead rat. Never again…
                    • Bob …

                      8 December 2016 at 9:31 am

                      Thanks PM, that all makes perfect sense and I learnt something new, I wasn’t previously aware of Labour’s “surly curmudgeon” faction!

                      Unfortunately I held my nose and voted Winston First in 2005, so I know what that dead rat tastes like.
                • Cinny …

                  8 December 2016 at 7:31 am

                  You don’t think a tax on sugary drinks would achieve anything? I disagree, it would do something to help, it would not solve the whole problem, but it would be a factor in that solution.

                  The tax does not appear to have dented sales in Mexico, the government is collecting tax from it that can be used in the health sector, for other factors of obesity, maybe it could be used to encourage more people into physical activity or something, maybe the tax could be enough to cover dental care for the whole population? I don’t see any loses with this kind of tax from either side.

                  https://www.ft.com/content/e4f36a0e-6485-11e6-8310-ecf0bddad227
12. Morrissey 12

    7 December 2016 at 9:53 am

    “Nicky Hager is trying to scaremonger and make himself relevant again.”
    What someone collapsing under pressure looks like

    She’s already losing her temper and calling people names….

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/319800/collins-hager-is-trying-to-scaremonger
    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      7 December 2016 at 10:13 am

      Sour grapes on Hagers part, his sordid little book failed and now he’s trying to flog a dead horse
      • Robert Guyton 12.1.1

        7 December 2016 at 10:30 am

        You choice of words reflects the state of your soul right now, Pucky. You’re lashing out. You are bitter, thanks to John Key, and you are right to be.
        • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1

          7 December 2016 at 10:38 am

          I’m an atheist so the soul doesn’t exist 🙂
          • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.1

            7 December 2016 at 10:41 am

            It’s long been clear that you lack one, Pucky, as your hero-to-zero, John Key lacks anything resembling one, but I didn’t want to make an issue of it. I can see now, why you favour Collins for your next empty-vessel leader.
            • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.1.1

              7 December 2016 at 10:50 am

              Actually I favour Coleman because he’s a fresher (or unknown) face whereas English, though talented, can’t really claim to be renewing and Jude has been unfortunately hamstrung by nasty lefties that fear her talent, hard work and charisma

              I just don’t think Coleman will win
              • Robert Guyton …

                7 December 2016 at 10:55 am

                No one will win in this race of the losers, Pucky, least of all you and silly-billies like you who believed in Key. You’ve been slam-dunked, abandoned, short-changed and abused. I’m leaving you to your stranded-fish gaspings today as I’ve got fun things to do and this is miserable stuff.
                • Puckish Rogue …

                  7 December 2016 at 11:04 am

                  Aww its sweet you’re trying to do that thing where you try to bring someone from the opposite political spectrum down

                  I mean it won’t work because the probability of a National/NZFirst government has increased but I appreciate the effort 🙂
                  • Cinny …

                    7 December 2016 at 11:48 am

                    Dude you didn’t hear Sanso interview Crusher then Winny this morning?

                    Oh dang, sorries to burst your bubble. For reals it does not look good for a coalition with Sir Winston if that’s what you are excited about.

                    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Winston-Peters-on-Judith-Collins-calling-him-the-real-leader-of-the-opposition/tabid/506/articleID/133814/Default.aspx
                    • Puckish Rogue …

                      7 December 2016 at 11:55 am

                      If you asked him about what he said the next day he’d deny he ever said it
                    • adam …

                      7 December 2016 at 12:08 pm

                      Jonky resigned Puckish, stop projecting.
              • Muttonbird …

                7 December 2016 at 10:55 am

                Jude has been unfortunately hamstrung by nasty lefties that fear her talent her own dishonestly and corruption.

                Fixed.
      • Morrissey 12.1.2

        7 December 2016 at 10:34 am

        Unless you are more ignorant than I think you are, my friend, you will realize that Hager’s book was very successful. As he pointed out in this morning’s interview, the book led to Judith Collins losing her cabinet seat.

        And the sordid parts of his book are the revelations of what Collins, Slater, Jordan Williams, Jason Eade and co. were doing. You’re muddle-headed to confuse the journalist with the things he reveals.
        • Puckish Rogue 12.1.2.1

          7 December 2016 at 10:45 am

          Ok its true that in my opinion the purpose of the book was to swing the election the lefts way which means it was a failure, National was re-elected, John Key was still popular and the left was still stagnating
          • Anne 12.1.2.1.1

            7 December 2016 at 11:23 am

            According to Hager – and despite the right’s claims to the contrary he is a thoroughly honest person – the timing of the publication of the book just before the election was coincidental. He had hoped it would be ready for publication early in 2014 but it didn’t work out that way. Having said that, I’m sure he did want to see it published before the 2014 election.

            Hager does not make claims about anybody without solid evidence to back them up. And that is precisely what happened with “Dirty Politics”. That it did not have an effect on the election is an indictment on the voters – the vast majority of whom were too glassy eyed and lazy to bother to read the book and/or digest the information that was widely reported and it’s inherent ramifications.
            • Puckish Rogue 12.1.2.1.1.1

              7 December 2016 at 11:38 am

              “the timing of the publication of the book just before the election was coincidental”

              and if you believe that do I have a deal for you: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=i%20have%20a%20bridge%20to%20sell%20you
              • Anne …

                7 December 2016 at 12:22 pm

                C,mon PR. Read what I said.

                I recall Hager being quite open about the fact he wanted to publish the book before the election because he believed it was important that voters were aware of the dirty political machinations (Ede, Slater, Odgers, Lusk and Carrick Graham in particular) that were occurring. It was also deplorable that it was being coordinated from within “the PM’s office” and it defies logic Key didn’t know what was going on as he subsequently claimed.

                Hager intended to publish much sooner but there were various delays and it ended up coming only a month before the election. Too late to have much affect on the election.
            • Brigid 12.1.2.1.1.2

              7 December 2016 at 12:50 pm

              “the vast majority of whom were too glassy eyed and lazy to bother to read the book and/or digest the information that was widely reported and it’s inherent ramifications.” One of whom is you eh Pluckliss Rogue.
              • Puckish Rogue …

                7 December 2016 at 4:15 pm

                That’s Mr Puckish Rogue Esq. if you please 🙂
        • Cinny 12.1.2.2

          7 December 2016 at 11:52 am

          But it’s a great go-to for another insight and possible leads, that index.. fantastico.

          GOsh it’s super exciting really… a race when you can’t stand any of the candidates, it’s like the USA presidential election all over again post Bernie of course.

          Bridges I love oil is about to throw his hat in the ring too…. let the circus begin.. lmfaooooo best reality show in some time this is.
      • Psycho Milt 12.1.3

        7 December 2016 at 10:35 am

        The contents certainly were sordid, but that was down to the participants being quoted (including Collins), not Hager.
      • Muttonbird 12.1.4

        7 December 2016 at 11:51 am

        Really? One of the better selling NZ books, I would have thought.

        Positive feedback for Nicky Hager’s book, Dirty Politics, keeps on coming.

        “I can’t go anywhere, like the supermarket, without people coming up and thanking me for writing it – it’s like no experience I’ve had before,” he says.

        The Wellington-based journalist says he intended the book to be a small sequel to The Hollow Men. “But this one really struck a chord; it’s been amazing.”

        Dirty Politics has sold 18,000 copies, which is huge for New Zealand. Normally, best sellers clock up about 2000 in sales.

        My bold, heh.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/lifestyle/70871949/Endless-praise-for-Nicky-Hagers-book-Dirty-Politics
    • Karen 12.2

      7 December 2016 at 10:32 am

      I thought it was telling that in that interview Collins claimed she doesn’t hold grudges but spent the entire time attacking Nicky Hager, and deliberately mispronouncing his name. She came across as vindictive and bullying – so quite accurate really.
      • Morrissey 12.2.1

        7 December 2016 at 10:36 am

        Exactly what struck me, too, Karen. Watching her self-destruct over the next few weeks will be a diverting if ugly spectacle.
      • Psycho Milt 12.2.2

        7 December 2016 at 10:36 am

        She came across as vindictive and bullying – so quite accurate really.

        The problem for National in a Collins leadership, summed up nicely.
13. weka 13

    7 December 2016 at 9:55 am

    test.
14. greywarshark 14

    7 December 2016 at 10:33 am

    Hi Mod I have two stuck – one meant for Open Mike and one for Barbecue Season. When and if you have time could you release. Ta
15. ianmac 15

    7 December 2016 at 11:09 am

    First Policy out from The Opportunities Party. Gareth Morgan.

    “The current tax regime favours owners of capital and unjustly burdens wage earners. This is not only inequitable, it results in poor utilisation of capital and lower than necessary income and employment. ”
    “It addresses issues of rising inequality, housing affordability, foreign debt and poor levels of business investment. The end result will be more jobs, more businesses growth and tax cuts that leave 80% of the population better off.”
    (I am watching with cautious interest.)
    http://www.top.org.nz/top1?utm_campaign=top1_members&utm_medium=email&utm_source=garethmorgan
    • millsy 15.1

      7 December 2016 at 11:23 am

      He should really exempt the family home. Taxing cash-poor homeowners is not the way to go to fix our problems.
      • adam 15.1.1

        7 December 2016 at 11:43 am

        millsy, This from the full policy.

        “In case you missed it, I repeat
        – under this policy NOT ONE
        ADDITIONAL DOLLAR OF TAX
        WILL BE COLLECTED. What
        will happen is that some of
        us will pay more (in mine and
        John Key’s case, a lot more) and
        for the great majority of people
        they will either be unaffected
        or pay significantly less. ”

        It is closing a tax loop hole, not a new tax, nor an attack on the poorest on society. Quite smart really.
        • Gabby 15.1.1.1

          7 December 2016 at 10:08 pm

          He doesn’t want poor people to own houses.
      • ropata 15.1.2

        7 December 2016 at 1:39 pm

        Being a “cash-poor homeowner” is a piss poor reason to expect tax exemptions. There are a lot of hard working people getting heavily taxed and will never own a home. What happened to a fair go?
        • Siobhan 15.1.2.1

          7 December 2016 at 4:46 pm

          Exactly. The idea that owning a home is somehow a special burden needs to be put to rest.
          I get tired of home owners who endlessly bang on about ‘how hard it is to pay the mortgage’, as if somehow paying rent with absolutely no benefit or gain or security, till the day you die, is the easy ‘option’.

          Some work to pay the rent, some work to pay the mortgage. The renter is the one left well behind in that equation.
          We need some fairness in our financial and taxation systems.
          • ropata 15.1.2.1.1

            7 December 2016 at 5:12 pm

            A lot of kiwi homeowners think they are entitled to some kind of special privileges and tax breaks that renters never get. They are very sensitive to anything that threatens their inflated asset value
        • Foreign waka 15.1.2.2

          7 December 2016 at 7:20 pm

          What about the older folks? They ones who have saved all their lives, survived wars and worked hard raising their families in a home as apartments obviously were not in vogue. But you could also look to the older folks that have to fork out 16 Mil for repair bills of apartments not so long ago build.
          The core of it is that instead of getting off on envy and bashing people who have worked hard, work on a fairer system. This would certainly not include any tax cuts but rather have progressive tax applied.
          • ropata 15.1.2.2.1

            8 December 2016 at 12:59 am

            You didn’t read Gareth Morgan’s piece didja? His proposal seems eminently fair. Taxing the top few % who are asset rich and using accounting tricks to hide their income from capital gains. Why should people who work for a living have to pay all the tax and people in million dollar houses pay none, while gaining (at least) 70K per year tax free.
            • Foreign waka 15.1.2.2.1.1

              10 December 2016 at 2:41 pm

              You refereed to “a lot of Kiwi homeowners” – a lot? Many, many older folks are asset rich (if one could say that) because they have paid off the mortgage for the roof over their heads. With the 350 bucks a week to survive I doubt that you can add another tax.
              As to your assertion of “entitlement” – there is no such thing. There is however, fairness in distribution which has never played out as for every mentioning of a group getting a share someone will put a veto in. This is what greed is all about, measuring entitlements.
16. Puckish Rogue 16

    7 December 2016 at 12:27 pm

    Interesting, once again Labour gives it to a meek and compliant Greens, please sir may I have another

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2016/12/labour_backs_down_on_nelson_greens_furious.html

    When will the Greens learn that being a doormat means you won’t get any respect from Labour…
17. Puckish Rogue 17

    7 December 2016 at 12:39 pm

    Bless ’em 🙂

    http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/english-and-colemans-inspiring-stories-how-they-came-from-money-and-stayed-there/

    Corrections Minister Judith Collins has also announced she’ll seek the leadership of the party – and the nation – but is potentially less able to relate to the financial struggles of ordinary kiwis.

    Collins has no money, but purchases all her goods by silently staring people down until they cave.
18. Draco T Bastard 18

    7 December 2016 at 1:01 pm

    And now Key’s been tipped to head the IMF:

    Outgoing Prime Minister John Key has been tipped as a potential candidate to head the International Monetary Fund – an appointment signed off by US President Barack Obama.

    Someone must be getting upset with all the research that the IMF has done recently that proves the present socio-economic system that’s been rammed down our throats, often via the IMF, doesn’t work.
    • Dv 18.1

      7 December 2016 at 1:07 pm

      Well that won’t please wify
    • NZJester 18.2

      7 December 2016 at 1:32 pm

      With the mess he has made of promoting high employment and sustainable economic growth, and reducing poverty in New Zealand he has no hope of accomplishing the stated goals of the IMF. The IMF seeks to facilitate trade as well, but that trade is meant to be fair and balanced trade. The type of trade he has sort to facilitate but luckily has failed so far has been to give the big internationals all the power to bully the little guys and small countries with anonymous international courts paid for, staffed by and beholden to those same big internationals.
      • garibaldi 18.2.1

        7 December 2016 at 5:22 pm

        Well that wouldn’t really be a surprise seeing Key is part of the oneworld group. in fact it’s just an extension of his burning desire for the TPP.
19. Rosemary McDonald 19

    7 December 2016 at 1:10 pm

    And Michael “Beware of the Worms!” Woodhouse is tipped to be Minister of Health.

    Please Goddess, end the misery now.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11762144

    This is of course going to happen if Jonathon “We’ll have to agree to disagree” Coleman gets one of the two Top Spots.

    and to confirm my earlier assertion that he could be The Man…

    “‘I think [Dr Coleman] glosses over the serious plight the public health system is in, and I don’t think he sufficiently gets it.

    ”At our last conference he annoyed the delegates a lot, because when somebody would express a different view to his, he had a stock answer of simply saying: ‘We’ll have to agree to disagree’.””

    Sounds like Someone Else doesn’t it? Not getting it and glossing over the problems….but I guess that to achieve such a constant state of ‘relaxedness’ you’d have to be that way inclined.
20. NZJester 20

    7 December 2016 at 1:19 pm

    Has the NZ Herald published the real reason Key has resigned?
    Did he get a tap on the shoulder from President Obama in his last days in office and wants an even bigger stage for his ego?
    John Key named as ideal candidate to head IMF
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11762219
    We will have to wait and see.

    A lot of the things that job is meant to accomplish are things he has totally failed at in New Zealand.
    QUOTE: The IMF seeks to facilitate international trade, promote high employment and sustainable economic growth, and reduce poverty around the world.

    He has only ever focused on one of those things in his time as NZ PM and the last 3 have got worse every year for us here under his government. He shrugged off as to hard reducing poverty here, imagine the mess with him in that role.
    • McFlock 20.1

      7 December 2016 at 1:50 pm

      Yeah.
      Fucker finally got a bigger gig and bailed on his mates lol.
    • Whateva next? 20.2

      7 December 2016 at 1:55 pm

      Now that makes sense at last! Hearing Key say he doesn’t know what he will do next…..casually throwing in “maybe the speaking circuit..” He has had a game plan since being a ten year old, deciding he would learn golf, because rich people play golf, so who is he trying yo kid?
21. adam 21

    7 December 2016 at 1:44 pm

    Oh look, corruption and cronyism working hand in hand with old small hands. Nothing changes, poor C.V. must be feeling quite sick at this point.
22. Sacha 22

    7 December 2016 at 2:04 pm

    Lyndon Hood from Scoop NZ points out the ‘IMF wants Key’ story our local media are recycling now is actually a year old: http://www.mscnewswire.co.nz/reporters-desk/item/1019-nz-premier-john-key-imf-managing-director-prospect.html
    • Cinny 22.1

      7 December 2016 at 7:37 pm

      LMFAO !!!!!! That headline caught my eye and i was like, nah who cares, as long as he fucks off from here, i won’t read that.

      And it’s a year old, and Herald is running it today… bahahahaha. Thanks for letting us all know.

      Sad, real sad, looking for click bait are we? Well it aint john the pm who quit key, any headline with his name in it is now yesterdays news or in this case yester-years news
23. UncookedSelachimorpha 23

    7 December 2016 at 3:36 pm

    Excellent opinion piece on Key in the Grauniad today. Includes thought-provoking discussion of the need for the political opposition to produce a viable counter-narrative.

    “In this regard, Key was like a Tony Blair of the South Seas: a certain level of personal charisma and a socially inclusive façade allowed both Key and Blair to sell the nasty side of neoliberalism.”

    “Like Blair, Key had the Teflon gene. Despite ignoring public preferences not to privatise state-owned enterprises (2-1 against in a referendum), increasing the GST during the global financial crisis, and more or less ignoring New Zealand’s chronic child poverty because he blames the victims, none of it stuck.”
    • ropata 23.1

      7 December 2016 at 5:24 pm

      What a brilliant summary of the PR image (not the actual human being) that was our Prime Minister.

      When Labour-voting women were asked what kind of husband they imagined Key would be, they saw him as having so much social and economic capital that they would be prepared to tolerate multiple breaches of trust in the relationship before considering severing it. Such was the appeal of Key’s persona.

      But the money story central to neoliberalism and so crucial to Key’s success is built on a false analogy that can be killed off with the correct mix of branding and narrative.

      For a start, it is necessary to assert that we live in a society, not an economy. The national budget is not like a household budget and anyone who tells you it is, is hiding something from you. Households don’t indulge quantitative easing (ie printing money); make decisions about what levels of social inequality are tolerable; set tax levels; or decide what scale of deficits will be run in order to redistribute income, feed the poor, educate our children or, heaven forbid, help them get well (for free!) when they are sick.

      These are all social decisions that determine our approach to fiscal management, rather than economic imperatives that determine our values as society. We don’t decide to starve our children until the mortgage has been paid off.

      If you want to unseat the neoliberal elites, be they the Trump-style authoritarians, or the Key and Blair style charlatans of social inclusion, you have to unpick their story of fiscal morality. And you need charismatic and popular champions to tell your story about creating a society that is caring and just.
24. LeanneRose 24

    8 December 2016 at 3:00 pm

    Why doesnt the entire opposition call for a VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE in the government led by English
    That will trigger an early GENERAL ELECTION so we can all be part of who runs our country instead of having yet another money lusting chauvenistic bully forced on us!!!

    That way we dont need an expensive by election for Shearers seat if he goes.

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