Open mike 12/07/2023

273 comments on “Open mike 12/07/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   12 July 2023 at 6:48 am

   We're supposed to have responsible government: that was given to us via the 1852 Constitution Act passed by the UK parliament. It was proclaimed Jan 1853 and became our legal basis as an autonomous nation.

   Acting Prime Minister Carmel Sepuloni says she was “unaware” dawn raids would continue after the 2021 Government apology. “I thought they’d already ended,” she told Breakfast this morning.

   “We were unaware of the practise that was ongoing by Immigration New Zealand and so deeply disappointed when we found out that these were being undertaken.”

   An independent review, triggered after an April dawn raid on a Pasifika overstayer, has recommended a law change to limit or ban dawn raids.

   The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) — of which Immigration New Zealand (INZ) is part — acknowledged yesterday its “guidance” had not reflected the apology and it was “prioritising putting this right”. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/12/dawn-raids-and-oranga-tamariki-fight-clubs-minister-sepeloni-and-minister-davis-are-being-poorly-served-by-their-staff/

   So who was responsible for government not knowing what it was meant to do?? You could say Ardern dropped the ball as PM. We don't know enough to jump to that conclusion though. Did cabinet decide on a policy change re dawn raids??

   If so, that'd be on the record, right? Did they collectively forget to do it? If so, they have collective responsibility for the screw-up. Was the immigration minister (Faafoi) solely responsible? If so, did he issue the official instructions to his department? If yes, the departmental head ought to be chopped off for the screw-up.

   I doubt it really serves us for Labour to get into its usual blather of issuing apologies in all directions for everything under the sun. It's up to the media to discover what went wrong in our governance process, and tell us. We could also expect Labour to tell the truth about what went wrong.

   The pandemic-induced brain-freeze theory has been ventured here as a semi-plausible excuse for Labour. I think we all experienced a phase of that back then but we got through it and went back to doing what was required. Except Labour didn't. Bomber:

   The extraordinary admission by the Deputy Prime Minister that she thought the Dawn Raid apology meant the policy would no longer be used is a jaw dropping moment that clearly signals a high ranking politician not knowing the basic mechanics of the issue they are discussing and highlights a ghastly lack of preparation by the Deputy Prime Minister’s staff.

   She seems capable & sincere, and fronted the thing as honestly as she could, but didn't address the issue of responsibility. Labour ought to get over their placeholder default. No reason for them to assume they are merely placeholders on autopilot until National gets back in. They ought to switch to being a positive alternative instead.
   • Scott 1.1

     12 July 2023 at 10:01 am

     The reason for the dawn raids is because it is the best time to catch illegal immigrants.

     Most of them work as they cannot access welfare and the employers pay them under the table.

     Police would be wasting their time doing business hour raids as there would be no one home.
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 10:34 am

       Yeah I know. Makes the Labour stance rather surreal. However, since they're in govt we must take their stance as govt policy. So the mismatch between policy and enactment thereof becomes the focus.
     • bwaghorn 1.1.2

       12 July 2023 at 8:22 pm

       The problem is they pretty much only dawn raid pacific islanders , not white or Asian overstayers.
2. Bearded Git 2

   12 July 2023 at 7:11 am

   Looking at the latest Talbot Mills, even if NZF was to go up a point to 5%, the Nats would still need ACT to govern. The Nats will not want ACT as loose cannons on the cross-benches, and anyway Seymour will want the baubles.

   But what worries me about this poll is that if NZF do go up one point to 5% and Labour drops a point to 30, the Coalition of Cuts (Nats/ACT/NZF) will have 53% and the Left will have 42% (Lab/Gr/TPM).

   That will be a serious wipe out. But I am optimistic that the polls will improve as the cabinet stabilises and the economy improves and as Hipkins out-debates Luxon. It’s all still on, but Labour needs a minimum of 35%.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-and-chris-hipkins-crash-in-latest-poll-gap-with-national-widest-since-2017/R6MWQK2TQBGK5FY3ZKOEYGVYPU/
   • Dennis Frank 2.1

     12 July 2023 at 7:30 am

     Hipkins out-debates Luxon

     Likely, but dunno if one can rely on that scenario. Most voters won't view any such debate. Folks have an endemic aversion to dumb&dumber shows.

     His problem is actually Labour. After they got that wave of around 60% due to success with pandemic management it and won their second term it soon became evident that they had no agenda and no governance plan. Their ship drifted noticeably the following couple of years then lurched into a storm of controversies.

     Which all left everyone with the general impression that they didn't have the faintest clue what they were meant to be doing. That view, in the public mind, is what the PM must dislodge now. Then there's the question of Maori solidarity to face the anti-Treaty threat emerging from a prospective rightist govt incoming. Will Willie lead a ship-jumping into TMP??
     • Bearded Git 2.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 7:56 am

       "…had no agenda…The ship drifted"

       Come off it Dennis….Massive sensible health reforms, the cost savings of which are already starting to filter through. Re-writing the RMA, again a massive reform. The housing intensification legislation-a major change to managing urban growth in NZ's cities. Three Waters-a massive infrastructural change. Then there are the recent major trade deals and so on and on

       If anything Labour's agenda has taken on too much. John Key's Nats were famous for doing no major reforms so they did not turn-off voters. Luxon seems to want to go back to the days of Ruth Richardson, gawd help us.

       I think Labour's problem is its messaging. They need to attack Luxon-he will flounder.
       • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 8:27 am

         I think Labour's problem is its messaging.

         I agree. Your citation of their agenda is worthwhile but I note inclusions of attempts (rather than achievement).

         I never saw Jacinda proclaim their 2nd-term agenda. I recall commenting here several times about that lack of plan announcement which seemed quite weird at the time. That reluctance to connect with the nation puzzled me.
         • lprent 2.1.1.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 10:49 am

           Could have had something to do with a pandemic that was ongoing during the 2020 election and post-election period.

           It is a curious thing that parliaments in times of war or pandemic or other disasters tend to focus more on immediate issues than progressing less immediate concerns.

           Please tell me that you'd prefer that to happen? Rather than parliament and ministers getting focused away from preventing people dying or getting injured.

           /sarc

           You do seem to have a limited view on what government is for. Reading you often gives the impression that your idea of government is that it should be focused on what you want it to be focused on. Seems like a pretty narcissistic viewpoint. There are other people involved in our society apart from you 😈
           • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 11:30 am

             Well I'm here representing a centrist perspective – a broad body of political opinion polled at 40% by Gallup in the US recently. Pandemic has something to do with it, but no more than a feeble excuse. Others got on with their lives, achieving what they needed to achieve.

             Presuming they did go into govt with a plan, no reason they couldn't have told the people about that plan – unless they believed it had to be kept covert.

             Three Waters, for instance, always seemed a suitable reform to me and I said so here several times whilst Labour was noticeably avoiding any public explanation of the link to co-governance. Even now they still don't spell out their plan around that, right? I mean, if they believe in the racial partnership thing many interpret ToW to have signalled, why not say so?
       • Corey 2.1.1.2

         12 July 2023 at 11:37 am

         They had no agenda it's clear, and if they did it was certainly not what they told voters it'd be in 2017.

         The first term was pretty successful compared to the second because Labour needed to satisfy two minor parties, who each had an agenda and Labour was able to coast off stable growth, announcements and a popular leader who acted well in a crisis and was an expert with coms and PR.

         The second term … Well … never trust a party that waits till the 13th hour to release a manifesto.

         Labour, will rue the day it ever got a full majority, because now noone will ever believe Labour wants social democratic economic reforms, or will ever do anything on housing.

         They'll never again be able to say "we want to do this but we need more seats to do it" because everyone will remember post COVID when they had a chance to serious reform this country, they didn't.

         Labour governments are elected to reform and fix capitalism, and every opportunity they've had from housing, to banks, to supermarkets to tax, they've chosen the most centerist route and instead focused on bureaucratic restructurings, thinking if they did as little as possible they'd own the center for a generation.

         Hubris.

         The sixth labour government, has been a total waste of time with only one or two major reforms, both of which will immediately be overturned by the incoming government, who only get elected because Labour fiddled while Rome burned.
         • Phillip ure 2.1.1.2.1

           12 July 2023 at 4:02 pm

           @ corey..

           Nothing much to argue against there..
           • Phillip ure 2.1.1.2.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 5:16 pm

             I used to be on the fence about chippy….no more..

             And he has made the case for greens/tpm to sit on the opposition benches…and fighting battle by battle…

             And who is on the shortlist to replace him…?
             • In Vino …

               12 July 2023 at 6:51 pm

               Agreed, Philip. I felt betrayed by Lange's govt in the 80s, and this latest move leaves me feeling that the same betrayal is reoccurring. It is a huge losing game for Hipkins to care more about alienating floating voters than alienating his proper base.
   • Tiger Mountain 2.2

     12 July 2023 at 8:21 am

     A few more twists and turns likely yet Git. Green and Te Pāti Māori are on the rise, and Baldrick is not popular at all, it is all still to play for if NZ National cannot break high 30s%.

     The Natzo trash can riflers and underwear sniffers are hard at work checking details of every known NZ Labour politician and associate if Simeon’s press releases are any guide. Dirty Politics is featuring already.

     I hope the turnout is enough to keep Natzo/Act well away from office. But hey, I have battled dark Torys most of my life and will do so again if they do slither in. NZ Labour need to wake up to what Act plans–FPAs, regular minimum wage rises, Te Tiriti–out the window.
     • Bearded Git 2.2.1

       12 July 2023 at 10:24 am

       Agree Tiger-the Left certainly is still well in this. The Greens conference and manifesto launch was good and TPM are nobody's fools.

       If ACT get in they and the Nats will, for instance, take David Parker's sensible RMA reforms and make changes to a number of key clauses that will have the effect of gutting its original intent and will turn it into a developer's charter.

       They will claim, of course, that they have adopted most of it.
   • Belladonna 2.3

     12 July 2023 at 11:37 am

     "as Hipkins out-debates Luxon"

     If this is in the context of the televised debates – realistically, they are only reaching the much older portion of the electorate.

     While it may be still relevant (if you think people in that age group are still undecided) – it is of little value in reaching anyone under the age of about 60.

     The days of 'the worm' affecting a substantial percentage of NZ electors are long gone.
   • James Simpson 2.4

     12 July 2023 at 11:51 am

     My observation is the winner of the debates depends purely on what team you cheer for.

     You either want tax cuts or you don't. If you do- Luxon wins the debate. If you don't – Hipkins wins the debate.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   12 July 2023 at 7:17 am

   So Aotearoa is headed back to the future…

   the country's foreign ministry has issued a bleak warning: "the future looks grim"… the straddling act between East and West is becoming progressively precarious as global power shifts and the world grapples with compounding crises. "One way of thinking about it is the term 'polycrises'," said Chris Seed, the chief executive of MFAT. It's all laid bare in a new strategic assessment called 'Navigating a shifting world'.

   This is the first time the foreign ministry has publicly released its three-yearly state of play. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/07/new-zealand-s-top-diplomat-chris-seed-says-there-s-concern-of-state-on-state-conflict-because-of-accident.html

   And a kiss of death for neoliberals:

   A key pillar of our foreign affairs strategy has been trade, but the assessment warns: "As geopolitical and security considerations loom larger New Zealand will be less able to prioritise economic priorities and will likely need to devote more energy to defence and security."
4. Dennis Frank 4

   12 July 2023 at 8:20 am

   Gareth Hughes, a former Green MP, works for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance Aotearoa. He is not a member of any political party. His post-mortem on neoliberalism: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132523073/40-years-on-its-time-to-reboot-the-economic-system-that-got-us-into-this-mess

   The results are stark. We find ourselves overworked, unhappier, unhealthier, lonelier and more unequal and divided as a society. Enough time has passed that we can now state that poverty, inequality and pollution aren’t bugs – they are in fact features of the system.

   Reviews and reports were delivered instead of modern water infrastructure, light rail or getting Wellington moving

   That last bit may seem anomalous but I think it's a riff off the photo he recycles, showing the victory and its slogan Lets Keep Moving. Did they? If you like slow & sporadic, you can say yes, perhaps.

   Unfortunately, the lesson Labour took from plunging polling was that the public was tired of change full stop. I think the real message was that people were frustrated with hearing about poverty, a housing crisis and a climate emergency without seeing change.

   Poor old Gareth displays his leftism here. People didn't want any random change. They wanted those problems to be solved instead. No wonder his bid for the Greens co-leadership went nowhere.

   The polls paint a picture of a New Zealand anxious for some sort of change. One response is to double-down on the ideas of the 1980s… Another option is to say the design of our economic system has changed before and therefore can change again. This month, Wales’ first Wellbeing of Future Generations Commissioner, Sophie Howe, will be in New Zealand promoting intergenerational thinking. If there is one thing we should be able to agree on in these divided political times, it’s a need for better long-term solutions.

   To discuss these modern ideas that could go into designing a new operating system, I am organising an Economy for Public Good conference in Auckland next month, where we can build bonds with people inspired to progress past GDP, and create an economy where people and nature thrive.

   Been there, done that already, got the book about it:

   https://natlib.govt.nz/records/21683817?search%5Bi%5D%5Bsubject_text%5D=Economic+development+–+Economic+aspects&search%5Bpath%5D=items
   • Patricia Bremner 4.1

     12 July 2023 at 9:53 am

     The Labour Party needs to do more to promote some key ideas we can all rally around.

     The gains are not being presented in a modern way.

     Three things.

     National know "Explaining is losing" so hence the flack, gottchas and digging up all and any errors. They are keeping a negative light on Labour and Government.

     Labour should swipe back with exposing the intent by Act especially. Give some situations where people could be disadvantaged by the coming cuts and removals.

     Labour needs to move into promoting some basic truths and ideas we are using as guides for policy. Ad is correct that Chris Hipkins has to rally the troops and show and tell on the ground. People need “carrots”.

     They appear disconnected and self absorbed, yet they are progressing some huge areas which hardly moved in the previous Key Government.

     The attention given to these glitches is disproportionate distracting and painting a false narrative.

     Denis please refrain from repeating their narrative. "Not completed half completed" as you know many areas are like housework, never "Complete" but ongoing and requiring huge input and energy, while dealing with well resourced attack dogs and ministries which run counter by "changing phrases" "going slow" " not notifying Ministers" etc, plus human error and fallibility.

     We are seeing the results of the huge influx of money and support by the wealthy, who do not like much of the proposed legislation in the pipeline, and are desperate to get back to BAU. Taylor's letter is just the tip of the iceberg.

     There is a meme of a divided nation. They say we are 'more divided than ever."

     Wow, we were really united before?

     Locked into low wages, siloed hospital boards, a hotch potch of money driven education, with high costs for useless "certificates, wealthy buying our workers right through contracting, the inequities Maori and Pacifica faced, doing low paid night work.

     We were really "united" while the wealthy had it all their way with the monopoly board of housing as well.

     Plus selling off Public assets to Private wealthy in "Partnerships" and the Monseca debacle.

     What we have now are memes being sold very well by the wealthy pouring funds into National and Act intent defeating all the improvements made, to take us back to BAU. imo. We need to come out fighting for people's futures.
     • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 10:30 am

       Denis please refrain from repeating their narrative.

       Actually I rarely take any notice of what the right does when in opposition. Consequently if there happens to be any random correspondence of my critique to theirs I read that as them getting something right for a change.

       Have you noticed any attempt to explain the failure of their house-building initiative in their first term emanating from Labour? Twyford's policy of replicating the achievement of the first Labour govt, I mean. How come it succeeded and this lot failed so abysmally? No attempt whatsoever to account for it that I've noticed.

       They could perhaps have pointed to the RMA, Palmer's creation, as being an effective self-shackling tool, a legal cage that they can't escape, but they didn't even do that. It's like they're operating a `play dumb, nobody will notice' scheme.
       • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 11:29 am

         Dennis you are more intelligent than that reply.

         Twyford over reached and was stymied by supply chains land banking costs and the monopoly board of fast rising prices housing had become. He aimed at the wrong market group. Megan Woods has rectified that. Oh and yes they have altered the RMA. So perhaps they are not playing dumb.?
         • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 11:34 am

           Well they may be able to proclaim some measure of progress in their campaigning – let's wait & see. Even if so, I bet it will seem minimal in comparison to the huge difference the first Labour govt made.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 2:25 pm

             Even if so, I bet it will seem minimal in comparison to the huge difference the first Labour govt made.

             So many achievements in 14 years (1936 – 1949), some during WWII, and all with less than 2 million Kiwis. Extraordinary!

             • The graduated land tax was reintroduced at high rates.
             • The top rate of income tax was significantly increased, from 42.9% (and 57% for 'unearned income' such as rent, interest or dividends) in 1939 to 76.5% by 1949.

             Simpler, family-friendly times? “The past is a foreign country…”

             Before humans arrived in New Zealand, kiwi probably numbered somewhere around 12 million. By 1920, that had dropped to around five million and now they probably number somewhere between 60,000 and 70,000 birds.
             • Dennis Frank …

               12 July 2023 at 2:55 pm

               And when you factor in the even more radical Liberal govt entering the 20th century, of similar length, it makes all today's politicians seem a bunch of useless wimps in comparison to those two govts.

               I hadn't encountered that novel you linked to, but found it interesting. Sex & class & psychosocial nexus themes – making the transition into international culture mid-century proves much common ground…
     • Jilly Bee 4.1.2

       12 July 2023 at 11:01 am

       Wot Patricia said

       
5. Anker 5

   12 July 2023 at 9:04 am

   https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/new-zealand-telco-giant

   “If you think that trans-identifying people should be free from discrimination in housing but you don’t want your eight year old daughter sharing a changing room with an adult male, you’re a TERF.”

   ‘ on Saturday, 24 hours before Sarah Jane Parker, an ex convict who served 30 years for attempted murder, kidnap and torture is telling the madding crowd at London Trans Pride that “If you see a TERF, punch her in the fucking face”, our favourite theybie is asking his pals on Threads (Meta’s answer to Twitter apparently) to back him in not tolerating TERFs. He is rewarded with a response from a bright young thing at Spark, NZ’s oldest telco’

   An outstanding piece from SUFW in response to Shaneel Lal calling for Terfs not to be welcome on the new twitter.

   I suspect there are many more terfs on The Standard
   than some would care to admit. Who does want a male in a change room with an 8 year old girl.
   • Dawn Trenberth 5.1

     12 July 2023 at 9:22 am

     Exactly, and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes and who wants a heterosexul male harrassing lesbians and wanting them to pretend he is one of them? The list goes on. Its shocking that we have gone so far down this path that reasonable views are denegrated and labeled "terf"
     • lprent 5.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 11:10 am

       …and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes…

       Not exactly 'reasonable' views.

       Of course I have the perfectly reasonable view that all sports should be banned as being inherently elitist and discriminatory because the competition in them is based almost mainly on genetics.

       Plus of course, getting rid of them will get rid of having to listen to this particularly stupid line of argument.

       /sarc

       If you want to make an argument, then do try to make one rather than dribbling out the same pile of propaganda lines. Especially ones that read exactly like simple bigotry to me. Just reminds me of the waffling that I have seen for every other race, religion and gender discrimination emotive rationalisations both in tone and the pretty obvious inability to present facts and clear arguments.

       So does the participants clear inability to deal with any criticism or refutation of their position.
       • Molly 5.1.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 11:22 am

         "…and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes…

         Not exactly 'reasonable' views."

         It's not clear what your argument is against the view expressed by Dawn Trenberth.

         "Of course I have the perfectly reasonable view that all sports should be banned as being inherently elitist and discriminatory because the competition in them is based almost mainly on genetics."

         This perspective can be made against any endeavour or occupations that give advantages to particular body types: potholing, shelf-stacking, dancing etc.

         Amongst those that are genetic predisposed to a particular sport, there is an added component in competition that relates to focus, training and personal sacrifice.

         The difference between performance between men and women is sex based, not reliant on other genetic markers. This website gives a good indication of how significant these sex categories are:

         https://boysvswomen.com/#/

         I'm unsure whether your perspective is that any sexed categories are unnecessary, or that sports itself is unnecessary – or both.
       • francesca 5.1.1.2

         12 July 2023 at 11:28 am

         But why is it a stupid argument

         L prent?

         Has it been a mistake all these years to have sex segregated sports where sex advantages matter?
         • lprent 5.1.1.2.1

           12 July 2023 at 12:54 pm

           Generally I’m not that in favour of elitist competitive sports at all. They appear to be largely staged for the benefit of media.

           Makes me wonder about why bother continually pulling that up as support for an argument at all. Probably because it is something emotive and almost completely meaningless in the context of what you are arguing for. Sport is all about highlighting the range of human genotype and environmental consequences. After all, a few judicious injections appear to make more of a difference.

           Which really just seems to me to highlight just how shallow the basis of your thinking is.
           • Francesca 5.1.1.2.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 1:20 pm

             "Sport is all about highlighting the range of human genotype and environmental consequences"

             Within categories , surely?

             Would you argue that 40 year olds should be able to compete against 14 year olds (because there's a huge range of genotypes amongst 14 year olds and 40 year olds?)
             • lprent …

               12 July 2023 at 1:35 pm

               Missing my point again. Sports have nothing to do with either our laws or anything significant with the basis of politics. So why are do the various arguments focus on a social, legal, and political triviality.

               The arrangements for sport are done exclusively for the benefit of the sports bodies and for teh participants. That have no social significance outside apart from the medical issue of the prevalence of sport induced couch potatoes.

               Lack of anything else that has more significance? That is what I suspect.
               • In Vino …

                 12 July 2023 at 7:15 pm

                 Lyn

                 You rotten party-pooper suprême. How would the Romans have survived so long without panem et circenses? (I laughed at your lovely idea of disapproving of élitest sports..)

                 And by the way, I seem to remember John Key doing much to boost his popularity through association with an unnamed NZ national rugby team.

                 Manipulation of public opinion is easily done via the circuses..
           • Shanreagh 5.1.1.2.1.2

             12 July 2023 at 1:36 pm

             But people have always wanted to run like the wind and swim etc and competitively as well.

             Why is this not a good thing?

             Is the idea of snooker devotees or chess masters also wrong? They are relying on superior eye/hand co-ordination and brains.

             People compete in teams as well. I am trying but failing to see why an activity (sports) that has so many pluses from midget teams to masters teams is receiving such a bad press from you.

             Sure I can understand that you are not a sports person but heaping scorn on women who want to point out unfairness does not seem to follow.

             Is it is women in sport – teams or individual you don’t like?
             or
             it is sport – teams or individual you don’t like?
             • lprent …

               12 July 2023 at 2:20 pm

               Is the idea of snooker devotees or chess masters also wrong? They are relying on superior eye/hand co-ordination and brains.

               Sure and they are private organisation as well governed by their own bodies and making their own rules to maximise participation in their industry.

               They also obey the general rules of society as laid down in legislation and court decisions. We don’t tend to have political discussion about them either. Politics inside such organisations is where those decisions are made – not here.

               Perhaps you should explain why decisions made inside snooker halls have any relevance to a a societal level political debate?
               • Francesca …

                 12 July 2023 at 3:54 pm

                 Snooker halls?

                 Never been there and never will .

                 It's about fairness, surely we all want that?

                 Within sporting bodies I support those female athletes who want fairness(and minimisation of serious harm) in their sport.Male bodies , even if their testosterone has been lowered , still have more testosterone than a female athlete is allowed

                 To compete in womens sports,transwomen can have testosterone levels of up to 10nmol/L. It really doesn't matter if a transwoman identifies as the other sex, he/she needs that level of testosterone for healthy functioning , because they live in a male body.Whereas women (Semenya aside , who has internal testes)have far less .up to half of that

                 Yes, there are differences between individual women and their testosterone levels , those differences are minimal when comparing male and female levels.

                 I want to see hardworking women whose sport is a livelihood enjoy those rewards without their places in a team for instance being taken by a male bodied person .

                 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#:~:text=The%20current%20IOC%20regulations%20allow,12%20months%20prior%20to%20competition.
                 • lprent …

                   12 July 2023 at 4:08 pm

                   So talk to the sports bodies about your concerns. Or the innumerable sports forums.

                   But if you have no plans to actually engage in the NZ national political arena about changing sports rules, why bother bringing it here.
               • Anker …

                 12 July 2023 at 4:45 pm

                 I prent are you saying politics and sport don't mix?
               • Anker …

                 12 July 2023 at 4:46 pm

                 I prent are you saying politics and sport don't mix?

                 Or is it more shut up terf, I don't care about your concerns about protecting women's spaces and competitions. Suck it up
                 • weka …

                   13 July 2023 at 11:37 am

                   he's pushing people here on TS to up their game when debating this topic rather than using GC talking points.

                   There are plenty of overt problems with Lynn's argument without trying to read into them.

                   For instance, the anti-Tour protests in the 80s shifted NZ culture away from the idea that sport and politics are separate.

                   And sport is far more than elite level, it's core to many NZer's sense of culture as well as something they do and watch and value.

                   The arguments around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                   I don't have time to go through the thread and make the arguments, but I do think that the debate needs to be lifted, and refined to get to the nitty gritty, and this is an ideal opportunity to do so.
                   • Francesca …

                     13 July 2023 at 1:17 pm

                     Don't quite understand this Weka.

                     If we're talking about fairness and equal access for women in sports, the gnarly issue of segregation in sports is going to come up, and along with that , the issue of transwomen

                     Are they fundamentally male bodied or not and does this matter?

                     Is it fair that women can miss out on sporting scholarships or prize money or a place in a team to a male bodied candidate?

                     Seems like employment issues there

                     Are there issues of potential bodily harm in impact sports where a male body can smash a female one?

                     If this is considered GC, so be it .Pretty unavoidable to my mind , and I'm surprised that we even have to debate this.

                     I resist the idea that women must be disadvantaged to help validate and soothe a man with gender dysphoria.

                     Transwomen are not being excluded from sport

                     They can organise to have their own category or compete in the category of their sexed body
                   • Molly …

                     13 July 2023 at 1:30 pm

                     "The arguments around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog."

                     More accurately, the arguments that lprent considers worthy around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                     While this is one discussion, others hold different perspectives.

                     "he's pushing people here on TS to up their game when debating this topic rather than using GC talking points."

                     That's a strange view of what is happening, and a dismissive take on contributions – eg. GC talking points.
                   • weka []

                     13 July 2023 at 2:21 pm

                     That’s a strange view of what is happening, and a dismissive take on contributions – eg. GC talking points.

                     Only if you think I was talking about all comments in this thread. I wasn’t, #notallcommenters etc.

                     If you look at the first comment Lynn responded to, from Dawn Trenberth, it’s a comment that speaks to those of us already familiar with the issues, but that wouldn’t really makes sense to someone who didn’t get it. So we have a few choices, we can object to being called out on that or we can get on with the work of explaining the issues in ways that more people will understand (whether they agree with them or not).

                     I disagree with Lynn’s position on sport and women’s sport. But I know that his style of debate often forces people to up their game. Earlier in the year he laid down some challenges about what ‘women’s sex based rights’ even means particularly in legal terms, and particularly in NZ, which I’m still thinking about and looking at and discussing with feminists. It relates directly to Tickle v Giggle and many of the cases happening in the UK. It’s good to look at this now before we get too many more legal cases in NZ.

                     There are people in this thread making good arguments, so please don’t assume my analysis automatically includes your comments (this has happened before I think). But even with the more in depth commentary, there’s still and edge here that I think is worth poking at to see if people can take it further. For instance, I think addressing the specific issues that Lynn raises is much more productive that speculating if he hates terfs (which is where I came into the conversation today).

                     More accurately, the arguments that lprent considers worthy around women’s sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                     Sure, and to an extent his blog, his rules. But he’s not unreasonable, and the issues he is raising do need nutting out.
                   • Molly …

                     13 July 2023 at 2:27 pm

                     @weka

                     "Sure, and to an extent his blog, his rules. But he’s not unreasonable, and the issues he is raising do need nutting out."

                     Fair enough. I did try to engage on his perspective, but he himself redirected to other issues to suit…as most of us are inclined to.

                     It's the certainty of phrases like "…do need nutting out." that makes me take note.
   • Visubversa 5.2

     12 July 2023 at 9:34 am

     I understand that Mr Lal works at the Ministry Of Education. This may go some way to explain the emphasis on "Gender Identity" in the Relationships and Sexual Education curriculum where 6 year olds can be taught that they have a "gendered soul" and that there are 3 sexes.
     • bwaghorn 5.2.1

       12 July 2023 at 9:39 am

       This is why activist should never be let into the tent, they have a valid place in society, but nearly always lack reason!
     • tWiggle 5.2.2

       12 July 2023 at 12:10 pm

       Lovely, another transphobic burst, complete with 1. overseas UK schlock-horror story, which may or may not be true, about one out of the 100,000 or so UK trans women 2. a squeeze-in of cult-figure Posie Parker, 3. followed by denegrating remarks about the trans people involved having balls and penises, and bringing the circle of irrelevance back to NZ by 4. misgendering Shaneel Lal.
       • Francesca 5.2.2.1

         12 July 2023 at 12:59 pm

         Maybe the "queer "umbrella has become too broad .There's a tendency for extremists and fetishists( I mean eating your own balls?) to be lumped in with genuine transgender people who just want to get by and have a decent life.

         When that happens you can usually expect a backlash.
       • Molly 5.2.2.2

         12 July 2023 at 1:05 pm

         Who and what are you responding to?

         As for 4. correctly sexing is still permissable, is it not?

         Camille Paglia's response is commensurate with my own:

         "Professor with PhD from Yale: “How dare you sniveling little maniacs tell us how we’re going to use pronouns…. go take a hike.”

         https://twitter.com/atensnut/status/1678417903572381698
         • tWiggle 5.2.2.2.1

           12 July 2023 at 1:37 pm

           Tried to read a book of Paglia's once when she first appeared as the latest wunderkind. I gave up, it was full of the most misogynistic rubbish. One thing she ain't, in her own words, and that's a feminist, out there for women.
           • Molly 5.2.2.2.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 1:53 pm

             I'm sympathetic to your problems with reading comprehension, but I posted a link to a short video with which I agreed so that might help.

             Note: that agreement in one instance, does not denote full agreement with everything she has said or written, or will say or write in the future. So overcoming your troubles with her authorship are unnecessary in this discussion.

             I don't particularly have any interest in what she calls herself – feminist or not.

             In this instance, the conversation was about language in which she apparently holds a PhD from Yale.
             • tWiggle …

               12 July 2023 at 2:24 pm

               But Paglia's tweet you post is invective-filled abuse, and progresses no argument. It's irrelevant that she's an Ivy League graduate.

               Looking at her wiki, you do know she calls herself transgender and says she was dysphoric and never thought of herself as a girl or woman. Talking about trans people are all pedophiles, she started off advocating for no age of consent, based on the ancient grecian ideal of boy-man love.
               • Molly …

                 12 July 2023 at 2:31 pm

                 "But Paglia's tweet you post is invective-filled abuse, and progresses no argument. It's irrelevant that she's an Ivy League graduate."

                 There you go. Was it so difficult to comment directly on what was said?

                 What invectives, state the abuse please? And how you determine she made no argument, given that most of the comment was doing exactly that.

                 "Looking at her wiki, you do know she calls herself transgender and says she was dysphoric and never thought of herself as a girl or woman. Talking about trans people are all pedophiles, she started off advocating for no age of consent, based on the ancient grecian ideal of boy-man love."

                 Do I need to reiterate?

                 "Note: that agreement in one instance, does not denote full agreement with everything she has said or written, or will say or write in the future. So overcoming your troubles with her authorship are unnecessary in this discussion."

                 Or do you want to move into a discussion about the age of consent?
                 • tWiggle …

                   12 July 2023 at 4:13 pm

                   My comment at 5.2.2.1 described what I see in those comments at TS that start with an anti-trans 'news' story, then predictably checklist the 1-4 stages I numbered (sometimes Posie gets a miss). This is pattern that occurs here weekly, if not more.

                   This paraphrases Paglia's tweet, minus invective:

                   'I'm not listening to you because I do not respect your character or ideas. I refuse to believe you have any right to take part in this discourse.'

                   Invective words : how dare you snivelling little maniacs… go take a hike. Really, Molly? 'That wasn't so hard, was it?'
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 4:30 pm

                     "Invective words : how dare you snivelling little maniacs… go take a hike. Really, Molly? 'That wasn't so hard, was it?'"

                     Apparently, it was. After all, its taken 3 comments for you to cut and paste. Which makes me suspect you haven't even watched the video as you have not replied to the queries about your accusations of abuse, or the failure to make an argument.

                     C'sest la vie.

                     Life's too short to participate at the glacial pace…👋
               • tWiggle …

                 12 July 2023 at 4:46 pm

                 Perhaps you missed the post from weka about twitter being opaque to many now. If you want to post the clip, you will have to go to the source, not through twitter. Otherwise we only have your invective filled quote from the tweet.
                 • Molly …

                   12 July 2023 at 4:54 pm

                   So, your three comments were done blind as regards to linked content?

                   That accounts for the noticeable pattern.
                   • tWiggle …

                     12 July 2023 at 6:52 pm

                     There was no indication that the tweet link was to a video clip. I commented on the tweet content you quoted which appeared to be Paglia's words. As you had no further exposition, that's all many here can see. WSYWG.
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 7:26 pm

                     @tWiggle

                     "There was no indication that the tweet link was to a video clip. "

                     .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959211

                     "I'm sympathetic to your problems with reading comprehension, but I posted a link to a short video with which I agreed so that might help."
       • Anker 5.2.2.3

         12 July 2023 at 4:56 pm

         tWiggle, if the overseas story is true, do you condemn Sarah Jane Parker for calling on people to punch a terf in the f…ing face to rapturous applause?

         We don't need to look overseas for example of trans rights activists punching a "terf" in the f…ing face, we already have a clear example from Albert Park where and elderly woman was repeatedly punch in the face by a tra.

         You posted about gender critical feminists being a cult before but provided no definition of what a cult is or how this relates to said feminists.

         As for misgendering Shaneel I am sick of playing along with this compelled language of the tras. They talk about it being only polite to use prefered pro nouns etc, while using terms like chest feeding, people with cervixs etc. If someone is a biological man it is misgendering to refer to them as anything else but he/him.
         • SPC 5.2.2.3.1

           12 July 2023 at 5:05 pm

           Is there any evidence that the male who punched the elderly women has ever identified as trans?
           • Anker 5.2.2.3.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 5:50 pm

             Thanks for asking that SPC. There is no indication that the assailant identified as trans and actually to me that is irrelevant. The person who assaulted the 70 year old woman, repeatedly punching her in the face is a man.

             This is not about trans people per se. It is about gender ideology and the trans rights activist who attempt to impose it on others in an authoritarian way. Many of these people are not trans.
           • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.1.2

             12 July 2023 at 6:47 pm

             Tra just means 'trans rights activist' in TERF language. I closely watched videos analysed on BigHairyNews of the incident from different angles.

             Just looked like a bog standard young man in standard top and pants (the person is 20 and from Tauranga). The only punch visible looked like a straight-from the shoulder man-type punch.

             The woman he hit was striding to meet him and had been going around wrenching small electric fence-type stakes away from people in the minute or so before.
             • Molly …

               12 July 2023 at 7:54 pm

               "I closely watched videos analysed on BigHairyNews of the incident from different angles."

               Can you link to BigHairyNews?

               "Just looked like a bog standard young man in standard top and pants (the person is 20 and from Tauranga). The only punch visible looked like a straight-from the shoulder man-type punch.

               The woman he hit was striding to meet him and had been going around wrenching small electric fence-type stakes away from people in the minute or so before."

               So? What is your point of discussion? That he was justified? She asked for it?

               This is another video of the incident you describe:

               https://youtu.be/Dos0FlaWIxM
         • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.2

           12 July 2023 at 6:37 pm

           Yes I did give a link to the cult label applied to Parker Posie. In fact it was a post at womens liberation aotearoa just before PP arrived that called the support for her cult-like. Not my words.

           I think it's fair to say there is a Trump- or Hitler-type cult around PP. Why do I think that?

           Because she is a provocateur and demagogue, based on her choice of venues for her rallies, and the fellow-travelling racists (eg. Hanson in Canberra) and neo-nazis associated with them.

           Because of the lack of disavowal and discussion of PP's worst behaviours and claims when I have listed them here. Examples: that NZ is the 'worst place for women'; that Jacinda Ardern destroyed NZ; and all the nasty, nasty things she says about trans people (see between 1:43.30 and 1:46.00). Things just go silent…
           • Anker 5.2.2.3.2.1

             12 July 2023 at 7:04 pm

             Oh well I guess we disagree twiggle. Whatever do you mean by Hitler type of cult around PP? Whenever anyone brings up Hitler in an arguements (or Nazis for that matter) they are losing the arguement.

             I will have a read of the women's liberation aotearoa article in terms of "cult like". I am not too bothered. I wanted to go to her rally to Let women speak (by the way I can't imagine Hitler holding events that allow women to speak can you?

             I think her statement that NZ is the worst place for women (her opinion I think ) was pretty reasonable given she was assaulted and threatened by an angry mob. She said she feared for her life (and that seems realistic given the threatening angry mob surrounding her). She left under police escort and police were so concerned about her safety that even at the airport she was kept in the police station. Before she arrived she was smeared in the media (white supremacy sign when all she was doing was playing with her zipper, thanks Newshub). What the hell did you expect her to say about our country "what a lovely friendly place"

             Yes she probably shouldn't have meet with the guy in Canberra, but everyone knows the Nazis in Melbourne had nothing to do with her, even the Australian Jewish Society. There are a lot of Kiwis who think Jacinda Ardern destroyed NZ.
             • tWiggle …

               12 July 2023 at 7:27 pm

               Trump-like cult, then, as I listed, where the cult leader can say no wrong. Alternate facts. You can replace Hitler with Trump in my comment with no loss of meaning.

               If you watched Fox News or UK GB, pumping out anti-Ardern vitriol in 2020-21, yes you might think Ardern destroyed NZ. Says little for a petson’s critical thinking skills, if they can't differentiate between manipulative, emotion-filled propaganda, designed to attract 'outrage' viewers, and what's actually happening around them.
             • Molly …

               13 July 2023 at 10:34 am

               Women's Liberation Aotearoa is an organisation with no transparency of number or identity of contributors, and a social media policy that is both antagonistic and undisciplined.

               Their statements were part of the inflammatory narrative preceding the Let Women Speak event in March, and was used by some to justify the event as bigoted and non-feminist. They reiterated falsehoods about Kellie Jay Minshull, and deliberately stoked the flames of outrage. We saw the consequences of that on March 25th.

               Despite including in their mission statement that they "uphold Mana Wahine" they had numerous public spats with @ManaWāhineKōrero which TBH, didn't seem to have much to do with upholding, but I assume relates to the age-old story about being the wrong type of Mana Wāhine…

               I tried to engage with them on Twitter, and the exchanges very quickly devolved into bullying behaviour. That said, it could be reflective of only the person in charge of the account rather than the organisation, but that experience alongside their pompous statements made me cautious of engaging with or supporting them.

               They have done exceptional work in some areas and that can be found on their website and their blog, but their determined aversion to the inclusion of women from all political perspectives, is off-putting to me personally.

               What's in a name?

               Left-wing stalwart and approved Mana Wahine Women's Liberation Aoteraoa.

               Bit of a mouthful, I can see why they stuck with the misnomer.
           • Molly 5.2.2.3.2.2

             12 July 2023 at 7:37 pm

             "…and all the nasty, nasty things she says about trans people (see between 1:43.30 and 1:46.00) Things just go silent…."

             I had a look at this segment. It's not the original sources in full context, but an edited compilation of a person's interpretation ALL of which have been discussed on TS – some directly with you.

             The silence may be a natural consequence of constant redirection in terms of discussion points.

             Case in point:
             .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959382
         • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.3

           12 July 2023 at 7:02 pm

           Do you support Posie Parker's statement that trans men should be sterilised?
           • Anker 5.2.2.3.3.1

             12 July 2023 at 7:08 pm

             No
             • tWiggle …

               12 July 2023 at 8:03 pm

               Thanks for the answer, anker, that's more than I have had before. Do I think Sarah Jane Barker is okay saying punch a TERF? No, but I find the person behind the 'torturer/murderer/self-castrator' whoopwhoop in the UK tabloid press to be a very human person, admirable for her grit and self-education.

               She experienced horrific violence in childhood and on being queer in prison. She has emerged to give back to the community and advocate for all prisoners, not just trans women.

               Given the major anti-trans movement at the top tier of UK society, not taking rights from cis-women, but taking away existing rights from the trans community, trans being demonised by the UK press, (which also tacitly legitimises social violence against them, see the recent killing of 15 yo trans Brianna Ghey) – I can understand why SJB expressed her emotions that way.

               Note also that saying 'punch a TERF' is not 'sterilise a TERF', is not 'use a gun to check if that butch woman desperate to pee is a TERF', is not 'TERFs are child abusers' (although https://www.caelanconrad.ca/insideacult see video 2 some TERFs advocate abusive means to 'convert' their trans children to cis-hood).

               If I were to balance Sarah Jane Barker against Posie Parker, the balance is not in PP's favour by a long way.
               • Molly …

                 13 July 2023 at 11:23 am

                 "Thanks for the answer, anker, that's more than I have had before."

                 Not really an accurate statement:

                 .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959510
           • Molly 5.2.2.3.3.2

             12 July 2023 at 7:43 pm

             Post the link to original source then I'll reply.

             (You are aware sterilisation is an expected and common side effect of medical interventions under "affirmation only" "healthcare"? Are you saying this side effect is not acceptable?)
             • Molly …

               13 July 2023 at 11:11 am

               Ah, yes… I thought we'd been here before…

               1. .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21-03-2023/#comment-1940017

               2. .https://thestandard.org.nz/un-expert-allow-women-and-girls-to-speak-on-sex-gender-and-gender-identity-without-intimidation-or-fear/#comment-1951208

               3. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-06-2023/#comment-1953797

               Note: These are the instances were you were replied to with context. There are others where your "sterilisation of transmen" was repeated in a litany of grievances, and was not responded to specifically.

               So, my question to you remains:

               Sterilisation is an expected and common side effect of medical interventions under "affirmation only" "healthcare"? Are you saying this side effect is not acceptable?
               • tWiggle …

                 13 July 2023 at 3:46 pm

                 Molly, links 1.and 3. lead to blank spaces for me. I don't have access to sidebar options in TS. 2. I read this and it is one viewpoint from one UN advocate. She has her opinion, but I happen to disagree that the GC movement is in any way silenced, particularly in the UK, where a complicit press and tv media has broadcast articles daily that portray trans people negatively.

                 None of these at all rebut Posie Parker's 'taken out of context' words in Contrapoint's vlog. PP said them. In living colour. There is no context that I can think of that justifies any of those statements. As PP says herself, she is 'never wrong'.
                 • Molly …

                   13 July 2023 at 10:07 pm

                   Just checked and they work for me on Chrome…perhaps, remove the leading . at the start of the link.

                   Alternatively, you could do a search for "tWiggle sterilise Posie" and you will get the results that show that you have asked – and been answered more than once on this query, negating your assertion above after Anker replied "No":

                   "Thanks for the answer, anker, that's more than I have had before."

                   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959403

                   Of course, if your memory is so forgetful, it might account for the failure to take note of the content of replies.

                   Also,: All the commenters on this site appear to hold strong individual and sometimes opposing views, and will often express them if asked directly. Repeated queries about interpretations of what a British woman has said on old YouTube clips is a technique that provides two groups of reckons and not much else.
       • Phillip ure 5.2.2.4

         12 July 2023 at 5:21 pm

         Wot wiggle said..
     • Jilly Bee 5.2.3

       12 July 2023 at 2:29 pm

       @visubversa – I must remember to ask my 6 year old twin granddaughters whether they have been taught about having a 'gendered soul' when they get back to school next week. I can already amagine what their reaction will be, but will be sure to report my findings.
       • Anker 5.2.3.1

         12 July 2023 at 5:52 pm

         Jilly Bee that is a very good idea. Be sure to ask how many gender identities there are too. If they look at you blankly asked againin a few months. The syllabus is new and only beginning to be implemented.
         • tWiggle 5.2.3.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 7:13 pm

           Can't see anything on the MinEd website since the 2020 refreshed sexual health and relationship curriculum. Which would have been written in 2019 at the latest.

           'At primary school children are likely to learn about:

           • the human body and its growth and development
           • friendships
           • different kinds of families
           • consent in a range of relevant contexts (eg, at the doctor, in the playground, online)
           • respect for themselves, each other, and people who are different from them.'

           https://parents.education.govt.nz/primary-school/learning-at-school/sexuality-education/

           I had a look before at the video resources to show how a particular school might choose to shape their teaching content. The learning around respect and consent at all levels is great.

           school case studies
           • Molly 5.2.3.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 9:09 pm

             RSE curriculum provides advice to schools to use third parties for resources, some of which may also be delivered by third parties.

             https://hpe.tki.org.nz/assets/healthpe/pdfs/J000765-MoE-RSE-FAQs-Years-7-10-FF.pdf

             Page 24 gives suggestions, that are repeated in various ways through the RSE topic on the Ministry of Education website:

             Use resources from trusted organisations like InsideOUT or RainbowYOUTH.

             As third party providers their resources AFAIK, are not subject to OIA requests. You can visit their sites to see what is publicly shared.

             There was one topic on the Ministry of Education site which appeared to be created and distributed by the Ministry on a education unit on porn.

             Unfortunately, the link I had is no longer active, although it's URL is self-explanatory:

             https://training.education.govt.nz/pages/media-wbtfullscreen.jsf?mediaId=1244287&mediaName=Changing+the+k%C5%8Drero+around+pornography+-+open+access&mediaLanguage=English%20(GB)&catalogId=849811&wbtPath=/ils/securedata/yE6JoSm27WNUITNsCq5QfAqtRwBSugt96jNmYpqp-4gf7Ap3chXMWgd01wJLSUPZIdUWhsMmt-PQ0mpDHVe9IPXS3d5WvyV1G6ibAA5Xmxlkdv7N9EOrHqb-9w6voLYA78Yj7yEcFN7D9BjQ8r0Xow/story.html&aspectStyle=&aspectControlled=&openMode=new-window&client=external
     • Anker 5.2.4

       12 July 2023 at 4:47 pm

       If Mr Lal is a public servant he needs to get pinged about speaking out on political matters.
   • bwaghorn 5.3

     12 July 2023 at 9:43 am

     Im a Terf and proud of it it would appear.
     • Anker 5.3.1

       12 July 2023 at 11:54 am

       Onya Bwagon!
   • Molly 5.4

     12 July 2023 at 11:04 am

     The incident with Sarah Jane Parker – who was one of the official speakers of the London TransPride march – was considered worthy enough to be posted on the TransPride Instagram account – completely with noisy and enthusiastic approval from the crowd. I understand it has since been removed, but a copy of the video can be seen here:

     " URGENT 1/4 We have reported this man – a convicted torturer and kidnapper, who is on probation – for committing a Public Order offence. We will not stand by while men like him threaten us or demand access to our single-sex spaces. #WarOnWomen #StopViolenceAgainstWomen"

     https://twitter.com/WomensRightsNet/status/1678001106738184194

     The UK police who threatened Kellie Jay Keen with possible arrest if she didn't attend a police interview regarding a complaint about her being "untowards towards pedophiles" initially issued this statement:

     “This is not a hate crime. A TERF is not a protected characteristic under the legislation. A TERF would be a person’s opinion, whether this opinion is viewed as discriminatory in itself or not.

     “The female is suggesting (inciting) members of the crowd to punch individuals who act on this belief. This is not targeted at an individual, this is in a hypothetical situation.”

     https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/incitement-to-violence-at-trans-pride/

     Just a note: when Sarah Jane Baker refers to being without testicles in prison, he is referring obliquely to his personal situation which he has related in the past, but now deleted:

     "Yes, but here is “Sarah Jane Baker” confirming it. He talked about how he started taking bites of his own testicles so that they would not be reattached, and how he cut up his scrotum to swallow it.

     @Isla_macy was trying not to be vomit as he detailed this in the space."

     https://twitter.com/RobbieTravers/status/1677964524928761858

     I'd also like to point out that 1,000 trans prisoners are more than enough to justify a specific accommodation in the prison estate, such as this:

     https://youtu.be/2thDt4twxww
     • Anker 5.4.1

       12 July 2023 at 11:53 am

       OMG Molly, that is horrific about Sarah Jane Parker and his testicles. He is a very disturbed individual.

       On a related note the trial of one of the people involved in the murder of a young homeless woman that Ashley Winter is already in prison for is happening in NZ right now. One of the lawyers is reported as saying to the accused "she's a bully" when referring to Ashley. Ashley is a man. I would warn people not to read about this trial because the details of the torture and murder of the young teen by Ashley Winter (male) are absolutely horrific
       • Visubversa 5.4.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 12:53 pm

         The Herald referred to Toko Shane (Ashley) Winter as a woman and showered him with female pronouns all the way through his trail, conviction and sentencing for the sadistic torture and killing of the young woman. By the time it got to his unsuccessful appeal, they were at least telling the truth about his sex. He is in Paremoremo prison where he belongs.
     • Molly 5.4.2

       12 July 2023 at 2:11 pm

       Correction: According to Pink News Sarah Jane Baker was not an official spokesperson for London TransPride, although her speech was posted (defended and then deleted) by their social media accounts – she was the first to accept an invitation to speak.

       https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/london-trans-pride-sarah-jane-barker-terf/https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/london-trans-pride-sarah-jane-barker-terf/

       "Following the official speakers, members of the crowd were also offered the chance to share their views, which was when Baker got up to speak. "

       Also, correction on post needed where I used Sarah Jane Parker – not Sarah Jane Baker.
       • Molly 5.4.2.1

         12 July 2023 at 2:33 pm

         Bugger: " he was the first to accept an invitation to speak."

         PinkNewspeak is catching…
     • tWiggle 5.4.3

       12 July 2023 at 2:49 pm

       Sarah Jane Barker was initially sent to prison at the age of 20 for 7 years for badly beating up her step-mother's brother. Her father physically and emotionally brutalised his family, her mother and step-mothers.

       When SJB was identified in prison as trans she suffered greatly, being raped, gang raped, including with a pool cue, suffering daily from verbal and physical abuse, being spat at, razor attacks scaldings, beatings. Her sentence was extended 23 years when she tried to kill one of her abusers.

       SJB talks briefly about herself and her trans prisoner support charity.
       • Molly 5.4.3.1

         12 July 2023 at 3:05 pm

         So?

         What is your relevant point to something I have written?
         • tWiggle 5.4.3.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 4:40 pm

           That Sarah Jane Barker is a whole person with passionate beliefs and a hard-won life. SJB talks prisons with Shaun Attwood. She is part of a prison abolition organisation (as well as sex worker).

           I don't expect you to listen to the whole thing at all (I haven't), but just a few minutes 25.30-31.00, to get a measure of the passionate advocate she is.

           She did castrate herself in her early thirties because trans prisoners are denied hormone treatment.
           • Molly 5.4.3.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 5:06 pm

             "That Sarah Jane Barker is a whole person with passionate beliefs and a hard-won life."

             Once again… So? What relevance does this have to inciting violence on women?

             Anyway, am already aware of the Shaun Attwood video, although I haven't watched it. Here it is linked in another article (not on Twitter, so you can read it before commenting if you like) about Sarah Jane Baker – previously known as Allan Baker:

             https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2023/05/20/profile-of-trans-activist-sarah-jane-baker/

             "The first sentence

             He describes his first custodial sentence as an adult was a 7 year sentence for ‘kidnapping, burglary, unlawful imprisonment and GBH with intent’. The victim was his stepmother’s brother. In the interview with James English he reflects that the victim in no way deserved the attack and says he feels he probably deserved 30 years just for that crime alone. In the Shaun Attwood interview, however, which premiered just a few months after the one with English in September 2020, Baker is very happy to let Attwood suggest that bullies deserve their comeuppance and directly blames his stepmother for encouraging violence towards him from his father, rather creating the impression that the victim was in some way entangled in that. In fact, he even states ‘I didn’t even challenge the conviction’, but obviously isn’t able expand on what grounds he might have been able to do so.

             The second sentence

             Baker’s second sentence was handed down for a crime committed in prison against another inmate. According to Baker the victim was his bully and responsible for encouraging extreme sexual and physical violence towards him. Of this conviction, in the Attwood podcast, Baker suggests that the conviction was not safe as he was on a ‘lot of medication’ and barely aware of what was going on around him. Attempted murder was the charge. Baker walked into the victim’s cell and attempted to strangle him until he was dead. Baker was just 21 years old at the time.

             Other crimes

             Baker revels in his criminal activities inside, including drug dealing, phone smuggling and sex work."

             However, as you say, he has completed his sentence, so what has he been up to since?

             I'll let you read the rest of the article to find out. And also to follow through on your previous assertion of her trans prisoner charity, given the information provided there:

             "3. Transprisoner Alliance

             This was Baker’s own project, and still grandiosely describes himself as its CEO. However, the website domain no longer exists but a Pink News piece lauding the project still does.

             Since being released in September, 2019, she has formed the Transprisoner Alliance which provides “both practical and emotional support to one of the most marginalised groups of people residing in our prisons”.

             The non-profit organises letter and visits for trans people behind bars, and it says that 90 per cent of trans prisoners receive no letters or visits from family or friends.

             It also provides legal assistance with advice for an in-house barrister on legal name changes and gender recognition certificates.

             One of the things that helped her gender dysphoria in prison was makeup, sometimes brought in by sympathetic officers, so the Transprisoner Alliance also brings makeup and gender appropriate clothing to trans inmates.
             From the Pink News article ‘Britain’s longest-serving trans prisoner is now helping trans people locked up in the wrong prisons’"
   • Nic the NZer 5.5

     12 July 2023 at 8:43 pm

     What I'm a bit confused about is what are these ISPs being expected to do about their users browsing or posting behaviours? I don't think anybody believes Spark and Vodafone could police particular Threads users opinions let alone would have any actual interest in doing so. The only way this seems to function is if self selecting customers leave, which many have.

     Maybe Lal is actually (secretly) marketing for some of the ISPs he didn't contact. Or more likely just has a dismal understanding of what they could actually do in practice.

     ISPs could probably block Threads for most of their users but I don't think this could be targeted in any useful way, anyway. But the content moderation is basically up to Meta.
     • weka 5.5.1

       12 July 2023 at 9:03 pm

       it's a culture war. Lal is telling his followers and identity politics brethren to push No Debate. Doesn't need the ISPs to do anything other than what they did.

       Spark and VodaOne's weekend social media managers decided to jump on the bandwagon. Spark quite sensibly and in a meaningful way walked that back on the Monday. I don't know if VodaOne did.
       • Nic the NZer 5.5.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 9:27 pm

         That's basically my assessment as well.

         Usually one would expect a weekend social media manager losing hundreds of customers to the competition over a single weekend post, this would be considered bad for their performance.

         I'm also a bit unclear about what role Lal's supporters may have played. As suggested the act of leaving appears to have been mostly voluntary choice by many customers. Its not like Spark or VodaOne has denied service to anybody, let alone realistically could do so in the way suggested by Lal.
         • weka 5.5.1.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 10:14 pm

           not quite following you there. Lal tweets, Spark and Voda supported that. Bob McCoskrie called Spark out on it, the GC twitter machine geared up and started organising a boycott. It was fairly spontaneous. I haven't seen what if any impact there was on Threads.
6. Dennis Frank 6

   12 July 2023 at 9:08 am

   Hands across the water:

   New Zealand is giving $38 million to China over a Canadian-Chinese businessman who laundered millions here for years, then last month tried to become mayor of Toronto. A Cabinet paper shows New Zealand police helped China investigate him for four years.

   It shows a split of $70m – 45 percent to New Zealand and 55 percent to Beijing – to recognise the key evidence China provided and translated.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/07/why-new-zealand-china-are-splitting-70m-in-criminal-proceeds.html

   Innovative foreign policy here. Govts don't usually hit the headlines by splitting the proceeds of crime. Still, they did follow the money to do the hijack.
   • bwaghorn 6.1

     12 July 2023 at 9:36 am

     Bloody good bit of team work there!!
   • Patricia Bremner 6.2

     12 July 2023 at 12:13 pm

     Pleasing to see Governments working together to take down fraudsters world wide. It has been good to see convictions for some who have operated here. White collar crime takes huge amounts from people.
7. Sanctuary 7

   12 July 2023 at 10:06 am

   The witchfinder-general over the TBD is having another normal one:

   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/12/why-people-should-be-genuinely-angry-at-spark-2-degrees-and-vodaphone-for-pledging-to-purge-threads-of-opinions-they-dont-like/

   "…This sort of (witchfinder) politics, rather like the anti-vaxx or 5G stuff, works diagonally: it draws in educated, hitherto liberal-minded or left-wing individuals, but its natural tendency is to draw people to the right. There is a powerful cultural pull to the right which has been felt in parts of the Left, especially since the collapse of the Sanders and Corbyn projects and the disorienting impact of the plague, which manifests variously as 'anti-woke' politics, as anti-liberalism, as transphobia, or as conspiracism. In some notable cases, individual left-wing intellectuals have gone fully over to the Right. I fear that in our present political deadlock, the passion for justice easily devolves into the passion for persecution, manifest in giddying pulsions of excitement, indignation, hate, sadism, prurience and paranoia…"

   Richard Seymour.
   • Molly 7.1

     12 July 2023 at 10:35 am

     Telecommunication companies should really provide information on their services and products – as should other companies.

     The use of social media as an advertising tool, has created a strange space where statements by junior social media staffers give the impression of policies made at executive and shareholder level.

     Many organisations seem to have this problem. Basic organisational guidelines should avoid such situations, but there is a contingent of people in such organisations that consider it now a extra service to tell their customers how to think.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 12:23 pm

       It was a moment of either utter stupidity on the part of Spark for not having a sign of process on tweets/threads/ other social media comments and or branding, or a moment of self indulgence by the person who runs that social media account, to the detriment of Spark.

       I would assume that Spark Legal is currently reviewing some processes, HR is updating theirs, as is Branding. As for the person running the social media account – a job that that might pay up to/close to low six figures – after all they have a university education and diploma – , I suggest that they should sue their university for an education badly given as they seem to have missed the 'Corporate Branding/Communications' class 101. But i think they have a degree in history / politics so chances is someone who was not hired for skill and expertise in communicating 'telecommuncations' to gain new customers and retaining existing customers.

       Anyone who ever held a coms job with a big international / national brand knows to keep personal approval/opinion off the official social media accounts they work for. That is what the disclaimer : Private account – my views only is for, to not bring their employer into dis-repute.

       Never mind I cancelled my accounts with them, having joined a different provider who only pays to use Spark Network. Its not a lot one can do, but at least Spark is now only getting a tiny amount of my telecommunications dollars.

       The reason for all that brouhahah?

       NZ has a bully who is endorsed by Media, Political Establishment, and Corporate. Go figure, a wee storm in the tea cup to piss of the peasants and to validate a shitflinger for a bit of euphoria. Oh, and of course a decent ESG score. 🙂
       • Molly 7.1.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 1:56 pm

         "NZ has a bully who is endorsed by Media, Political Establishment, and Corporate. "

         And as usual, this bullies is surrounded by other bullies and sycophants, operating within the same environment.
   • AB 7.2

     12 July 2023 at 12:51 pm

     Thanks. The last sentence from your well-chosen Richard Seymour quote is manifest further down this very post. Dark times ahead – climate change ravaging our physical world while our mental world decays into vengeful madness.
     • Molly 7.2.1

       12 July 2023 at 1:59 pm

       ". The last sentence from your well-chosen Richard Seymour quote is manifest further down this very post."

       Interesting observation given what that sentence is:

       "I fear that in our present political deadlock, the passion for justice easily devolves into the passion for persecution, manifest in giddying pulsions of excitement, indignation, hate, sadism, prurience and paranoia…"

       Can you link?
       • SPC 7.2.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 4:11 pm

         https://twitter.com/leninology/status/1678750033993256960

         https://www.patreon.com/posts/virtual-general-85924410
         • Molly 7.2.1.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 5:19 pm

           Thanks SPC, but I was hoping AB would post a link to his referenced manifestation comment in:

           ". The last sentence from your well-chosen Richard Seymour quote is manifest further down this very post."
           • SPC 7.2.1.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 5:36 pm

             Sorry. This presumably.

             https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/12/why-people-should-be-genuinely-angry-at-spark-2-degrees-and-vodaphone-for-pledging-to-purge-threads-of-opinions-they-dont-like/

             No valid reason to presume it was about anything on here …
             • Molly …

               12 July 2023 at 6:02 pm

               OK.
       • Incognito 7.2.1.2

         12 July 2023 at 9:26 pm

         Can you link?

         Scroll up to the linked quote in the first comment of this thread @ 7 et voilà.
         • AB 7.2.1.2.1

           13 July 2023 at 10:39 am

           No I can't link. I meant the whole flavour of the post.
           • Incognito 7.2.1.2.1.1

             13 July 2023 at 12:17 pm

             All good
8. Molly 8

   12 July 2023 at 10:26 am

   The phrase "assigned at birth" originated from the mistaken sex recorded for babies with DSDs, where observation was insufficient to determine sex.

   The adoption of this phrase for sex correctly identified by observation, is one of the many ways of derailing discussion. But in the case of Caster Semenya, it applies. Caster Semenya was wrongly assigned female at birth, due to the lack of visible male genitalia.

   As with many DSDs, it was only with the approach of puberty that it was determined that Caster Semenya was male, with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency. which means the lack of a particular enzyme disrupts the descension and full development of male genitalia. However, testosterone levels are usually normal for males, and the development of male characteristics that rely on testosterone continue as is usual.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_2_deficiency

   So, it is important to note that Caster Semenya was diagnosed at eleven as a male with 5aR2D, despite being mistakenly assigned female at birth. So, the birth certificate, which provides the legal "sex" of female – was incorrect at the time of issue.

   I cannot find any credible about whether the diagnosis triggered off a move to correct the information, or Caster Semenya did not consider this necessary.

   Caster Semenya has been competing in the women's categories in athletics.

   The push for including men with declared gender identities into the women's categories in sports, created an arbitrary and unscientific ruling about a reduction in testosterone, on the unevidenced assumption that this measure would offset all male advantage.

   Until this point, Caster Semenya – and others in similar situations – were competing with full male testosterone levels, as they were "legally" female. So the ruling that was made to include men with declared gender identities, impacted on those already competing.

   A case of discrimination was brought to the European Court of Human Rights, and has been successful.

   https://www.echr.coe.int/w/judgment-concerning-switzerland?p_l_back_url=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsemenya

   The ruling is reported by RNZ:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/493586/caster-semenya-wins-appeal-at-european-court-of-human-rights

   "The European Court of Human Rights has ruled in favour of double 800m Olympic champion Caster Semenya in a case related to testosterone levels in female athletes.

   The South African athlete was born with differences of sexual development (DSD) and isn't allowed to compete in any track events without taking testosterone-reducing drugs.

   Semenya has been in a long-running dispute with World Athletics who require her to have hormone treatment.

   She has twice failed in legal battles to overturn the decision however the case at the European Court of Human Rights was not against sporting bodies or rules – but specifically against the government of Switzerland for not protecting Semenya's rights and dates back to a Swiss Supreme Court ruling three years ago."

   It is interesting to note that the above article, while reporting the DSD diagnosis, does not at any point describe what DSD Caster Semenya has, or that that particular DSD relates only to males, which Caster Semenya is. This lack of information, implies that Caster Semenya is a female with a DSD that improves athletic performance due to an natural overproduction of testosterone.

   An 5aR2D performance lottery of sorts – shared – quite coincidentally by the other two place holders for the 800m women's Rio Olympic games in 2016:

   https://youtu.be/psxr58zKi6g

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

   So this EHRC ruling relies on the already badly drafted rule about testosterone lowering that is an affront to the women's sports categories.

   It is an example of how incompetence by World Athletics in creating this rule, creates opportunity for even further erosion of women's sports categories, where even the farce of testosterone reduction is abandoned.
   • lprent 8.1

     12 July 2023 at 11:22 am

     Yep. We should just ban sports because sport at the competitive end inherently depends genetic and diet advantages.

     Alternatively we should mandate the only people who are of exactly world average heights should compete in any sport. This should lead to body mods where people extend or shorten tibia.

     /sarc

     In other words the full range of human abilities are a matter largely of chance of genetics and nurture. It doesn't matter where you look, there are range of varying human abilities. Sport simply isn't exactly the best example to use because it is inherently elitist.

     While it probably excites some fools who can't think logically about the basis of sport. With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again.
     • Molly 8.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 11:27 am

       I asked this question above, but you appear to have answered it here:

       "I'm unsure whether your perspective is that any sexed categories are unnecessary, or that sports itself is unnecessary – or both."

       .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959125

       "While it probably excites some fools who can't think logically about the basis of sport. With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again."

       I haven't read anything you have written that can be addressed logically.

       As for banning any mention of sport, it's your site. It's your call. As always, I'll adhere to the conditions of commenting, or not comment at all.
     • Shanreagh 8.1.2

       12 July 2023 at 11:33 am

       An OTT response to a post by Molly setting out her valid concerns.

       So you as a sportsperson think it is OK if you were beaten by someone with a genetic advantage? I know that if a male had competed in any women's sport that I was personally competing in I would have raised blue murder as it is totally unfair.

       But people who say others can call themselves male or female on the basis of feelings or gendered souls do have a disadvantage in dealing with the basic unfairness of people with male bodies competing in women's events.

       But these sportspeople referred to by Molly actually don't call themselves female because of feelings or gendered souls, they call themselves female despite having male bodies

       With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again.

       Of course the site is yours Lprent to do as you want. But should you do this then the site will have proved beyond a doubt that it is/maybe inherently hostile to women.
       • lprent 8.1.2.1

         12 July 2023 at 12:58 pm

         There you go again. Completely ignore the basis on which what the criticism was based on.

         What was I arguing? A valid concern… Which you have just made a hypocritical decision to ignore.

         I’d be interested in hearing about valid concerns. Sport isn’t one. It just happens to be one of the very very few concerns that you can raise where the number of verifiable incidents can’t be counted on the fingers of one hand – world wide!

         Talk about a weak argument….
         • Shanreagh 8.1.2.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 1:11 pm

           I’d be interested in hearing about valid concerns. Sport isn’t one. It just happens to be one of the very very few concerns that you can raise where the number of verifiable incidents can’t be counted on the fingers of one hand – world wide!

           Very confusing.

           So do you or do you not think it is a problem for female athletes when males compete in female sports categories?

           If it is not a problem is the solution for all women to take steroids to level the playing field so they can compete against males? Or do you have another solution? Personally I think the easiest solution is to prevent males from competing in female sports categories. But I'm probably highly naive and not sufficiently nuanced in my approach.
           • lprent 8.1.2.1.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 2:14 pm

             Not confusing – they and you can take it up with sports bodies.

             It has nothing to do with a wider social issue outside of the sporting industry. Politics, law and legislation has absolutely nothing to do with sports categories.

             What makes you think that it does? Please point to the relevant legislation or court decisions.
     • Shanreagh 8.1.3

       12 July 2023 at 12:04 pm

       So my very calm and measured response to this post of yours 12 July 2023 at 11:22 am

       has failed moderation for some reason?
       • Molly 8.1.3.1

         12 July 2023 at 12:13 pm

         Mine also, Shanreagh.

         I'll wait for a while for the reason for moderation before commenting again.
         • Shanreagh 8.1.3.1.1

           12 July 2023 at 12:17 pm

           Cheers good move to wait for the reason for moderation.
         • Francesca 8.1.3.1.2

           12 July 2023 at 12:31 pm

           Me too

           No idea why?

           I just asked if sex segregation in sports where sex matters has been a mistake all these years

           I'm genuinely curious where LPrent is coming from .He said Dawns line of argument was "stupid" without elaborating
           • lprent 8.1.3.1.2.1

             12 July 2023 at 1:09 pm

             I have been pointing out this enormous weakness in the range of what I have now come to consider to be simple bigotry about trans for over a year now.

             Why don’t we segregate people in sport based on height? It makes exactly the same level of sense as segregating based on biological gender. Or on the basis of childhood diets. Sport is an inherently elitist in that it requires a a hell of a luck in genotype and nuture to be able to participate on any level playing field.

             Importantly sport has absolutely nothing to do with politics or legalities. It is a set of artificial distinctions made by private organisations with their own rules that are designed to maximise their audiences.

             So why are you wasting my time listening to crap based on a spurious irrelevant argument basis to demonstrate a problem – then the basis does absolutely nothing for your cause.

             Basically I have come to conclusion that it is because you can’t find other significant numbers of examples of actual verifiable problem. So you use an emotive meaningless scare argument.

             Bigots…..
             • Shanreagh …

               12 July 2023 at 1:22 pm

               So why are you wasting my time listening to crap based on a spurious irrelevant argument basis to demonstrate a problem – then the basis does absolutely nothing for your cause.

               So why are the world sports bodies grappling with this? They seem to think there is a problem of letting males compete in female sports categories. Then there is the obvious, inherent to watchers of sport, of having world ranked sports people competing in events on an unfair basis.

               You knee jerk reaction that this is about trans issues is just that. Knee jerk!

               The point has always been fair competition so people of equal competitive standing compete against others. Traditionally because of the clear and obvious differences between men/women sports people this has meant separating out the sex classes.

               In my younger days when doing track & field because sometimes there were not enough females to compete and give each other a real competition we used to compete in an open class.

               In this class though the men were always given a handciap by time or distance to even things up. If m/w are to compete together would you be averse to this or is it all who call themselves women here and all who call themselves men there?
               • lprent …

                 12 July 2023 at 1:52 pm

                 I’m not involved in any sports organisation and haven’t been since I stopped playing my multitudinous sports about the time I joined the army at age 18 – so I wouldn’t know why the do things.

                 But I suspect that they make decisions based on their own organisation needs. Like universities requiring minimum standards for students. Or the army not taking cripples as infantry.

                 Why should I or most other people who have little interest in sports or any other body should care about what sports bodies do to manage their participation? Provided that it is legal, not hypocritical, and doesn’t unreasonable discriminate against participants for reasons that would offend BORA. So where is your basis for reasoning that we should look up to sports bodies for examples about how to manage our society?

                 Seems completely spurious to me. Trying to bring some completely distorted alien principles done for a organisation into law? Are you seriously interested in sports ‘law’ running society.

                 Should I also start looking at every other profit and non-profit organisations objectives and practices for legal precedence as well? Like the Catholic Church with its attitudes about celibacy? Or corporates with their focus on profit and personal returns?

                 What you appear to saying is the exact equivalence of saying exactly that.
                 • In Vino …

                   12 July 2023 at 7:39 pm

                   lprent

                   Surely you see that sport is used hugely by the media in the influence of public opinion? I understand your indifference, but sport is a part of politics, because far more of the unthinking population care far more about sports than they do about boring politics? It is a weapon, as when John Key got himself a photo on the cover of NZ's big Rugby magazine posing with real All Blacks..
                   • In Vino …

                     12 July 2023 at 7:54 pm

                     lprent

                     Sorry. I now see (having laboriously plodded through rest of thread) that my concerns are off-topic. I withdraw questions!
             • Molly …

               12 July 2023 at 1:26 pm

               "Why don’t we segregate people in sport based on height? It makes exactly the same level of sense as segregating based on biological gender. "

               No, it doesn't. The advantages of biological males is not reliant on height, although it may be a factor. Males retain the advantages of larger hearts, larger lung capacities, substantially more powerful upper body strength and recovery rates.

               (One such paper has just been released on the twitch muscles https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ca.24091. I can post other references for what had previously been well known, but I've limited myself for an interesting aspect one for now to aid discussion.)

               "Sport is an inherently elitist in that it requires a a hell of a luck in genotype and nuture to be able to participate on any level playing field."

               This is a completely different discussion. Apart from noting the physical, social and community benefits of sports, it has no bearing on the women's categories in sports.

               "Basically I have come to conclusion that it is because you can’t find other significant numbers of examples of actual verifiable problem. So you use an emotive meaningless scare argument."

               I understand this sentence (and your other comments on this topic today) to mean, that because you personally see no value in sports, anyone who raises the topic of the impact on women's sports categories of including men, is concerned about nothing of importance.

               I disagree, but note your position.

               "Bigots….."

               The familiar insult of which many have become innocculated to by its overuse.
               • lprent …

                 12 July 2023 at 2:10 pm

                 Sport bodies do specific things for their own reasons. If you want to change their rules – then go and participate in their bodies to change rules.

                 However we aren’t a sports body – we tend to concern ourselves with broader issues than how to market to participants and audiences.

                 Who are you?
                 We’re a cooperative who saw a gap in the New Zealand political blogosphere and decided that we should have a go at filling it here at The Standard blog site

                 So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole

                 “Bigots…..”

                 The familiar insult of which many have become innocculated to by its overuse.

                 Yeah, and I notice that, as a group, none of you seem to bother denying it. Just like you never bother to showing any substantive information about if there is a substantive problem or to make some attempt to document a scale of its extent.

                 Probably because it is

                 1. probably not a criminal issue outside of a few isolated instances.
                 2. of no real social issue outside of a few remaining places where
                    physicality make a difference. ie sport or labouring.
                 3. simply a perceptual issue by a people who want to claim historical
                    privilege.

                 Which also explains why I can’t get advocates to explain what they would want to do about it within a legal and legislative frame work. To do so would almost certainly expose just how much bigoted discrimination against other societal groupings would be involved.

                 It really hard not to compare this campaign to the rumours of negro rapists in the American South that caused so many lynchings. Or the historical equivalent instances here.
                 • Molly …

                   12 July 2023 at 2:22 pm

                   "So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole"

                   Sure.

                   Sports involvement at all levels has beneficial impacts on individuals, communities and society.

                   Although we are speaking about competitive sports at elite levels here, the ruling of global sports organisations filters down to community level participation, and influences policies and guidelines for non-competitive sport.

                   Individual benefits of sports involvement cover all aspects of three areas of wellbeing: physical, mental and social.

                   This is true also of solo sports endeavours or participation, but there benefits of community in such physical activities as well, which is why we have scuba groups or tramping clubs etc.

                   Sports considerations can have an effect on planning, resources needed for health services, mental and physical, and ACC. Sporting achievers are often used politically as role models for others. So, to me it is intrinsically interwoven with political discussion.

                   If your criticism is based purely on considering sports to be not a political consideration, then I disagree.

                   For the reasons, stated above (and more), if you want to continue this dialogue.
                   • lprent …

                     12 July 2023 at 2:42 pm

                     Sports involvement at all levels has beneficial impacts on individuals, communities and society.

                     Arguably so does not doing sports based on the number of people my age who have issues with old sports injuries and who burden our medical system dealing with them. So does reading books. So does playing chess. Or keeping historical records.

                     So now you should show me the legislation about sports management that demonstrates its importance to society in general.

                     I’d take a bet that there isn’t any outside of some enabling legislation granting tracts of land for sport. Where as there are whole acts about the importance of keeping historical records.

                     So which is more important to society. Something that we leave to largely voluntary bodies, or something that we legislate for.

                     I won’t even go into details about the short (to a historian or geologist) history of sport to illustrate its importance to our forebears.
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 2:58 pm

                     "So now you should show me the legislation about sports management that demonstrates its importance to society in general."

                     So much for the personal is political.

                     I cannot show you this one particular item that you request. I suggest perhaps the closest direct link that meets your criteria is the policy guidelines issued by government funded and run, Sports NZ:

                     https://sportnz.org.nz/diversity-and-inclusion/transgender-inclusion/guiding-principles-for-the-inclusion-of-transgender-people-in-community-sport/

                     This impacts on funding allocations and resources that is taxpayer funded.

                     "I’d take a bet that there isn’t any outside of some enabling legislation granting tracts of land for sport. Where as there are whole acts about the importance of keeping historical records."

                     That's a planning issue – which is actually still a relevant political discussion, if you want to head down that route.

                     "So which is more important to society. Something that we leave to largely voluntary bodies, or something that we legislate for.

                     I won’t even go into details about the short (to a historian or geologist) history of sport to illustrate its importance to our forebears."

                     My impression is that you have no concern for the impact of men competing in women's sports categories, and any references to how it does matter will be ignored, or redirected into obscure topics.

                     While NZ does not have the sporting scholarships so prevalent in US universities, I personally know two young NZ women who got full scholarships via those sporting scholarships.

                     One did Structural Architecture, and the other – is currently completing a Doctorate in BioMedical research.

                     Such mechanisms that provide additional pathways to achievement, do have a political impact, whether you agree with them or not.
                   • lprent []

                     12 July 2023 at 3:24 pm

                     Also has this,

                     https://sportnz.org.nz/diversity-and-inclusion/advocating-for-women-and-girls/

                     or this

                     https://sportnz.org.nz/get-active/participants/

                     Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t support the inclusion of those groups as well – and on what basis?

                     I could go on pointing out how many sub-sections of society the funding of this quango assists with. Like volunteers and officials of sporting bodies.

                     But what you don’t find in there is that is says what sports bodies should do.

                     The enabling legislation is here
                     https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0038/latest/whole.html

                     Section 8 gives the functions

                     
8 Functions
The functions of the Agency are to—
(a)
develop and implement national policies and strategies for physical recreation and sport:
(b)
allocate funds to organisations and regional bodies in line with its policies and strategies:
(c)
promote and advocate the importance of participation in physical activity by all New Zealanders for their health and well-being:
(d)
promote and disseminate research relevant to physical recreation and sport:
(e)
provide advice to the Minister on issues relating to physical recreation and sport:
(f)
promote and support the development and implementation of physical recreation and sport in a way that is culturally appropriate to Māori:
(g)
encourage participation in physical recreation and sport by Pacific peoples, women, older New Zealanders, and people with disabilities:
(h)
recognise the role of physical recreation and sport in the rehabilitation of people with disabilities:
(i)
facilitate the resolution of disputes between persons or organisations involved in physical recreation and sport:
(j)
work with schools, regional, central, and local government, and physical recreation and sports organisations to ensure the maintenance and development of the physical and organisational infrastructure for physical recreation and sport:
(k)
work with health, education, and other agencies to promote greater participation in physical recreation and sport through policy development, advocacy, and support, in line with the objectives of the New Zealand health strategy:
(l)
provide advice and support for organisations working in physical recreation and sport at national, regional, and local levels:
(m)
facilitate co-ordination between national, regional, and local physical recreation and sport organisations:
(n)
represent the Government’s policy interests in physical recreation and sport internationally.


                     Section 10 gives the explicit hands off for the political sphere.

                     
10 Restriction on directions
The Minister may not give a direction to the Agency under section 103 of the Crown Entities Act 2004 in relation to the allocation of funds to, or for the benefit of, any persons, or in relation to a policy, practice, procedure, or decision of the Agency regarding the allocation of funds to, or for the benefit of, any person.


                     Are you suggesting that this rather explicit separation of the state from sports bodies should be changed?

                     Perhaps you can suggest how you’d reword it.

                     That would be change – someone actually talking about a substantive political subject rather whining about fairness in sporting bodies.

                     I do like tearing dictatorial legislation apart.
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:31 pm

                     @lprent

                     Such faith in legislation to be well written and drafted, and no concern about the impact of such.

                     "Perhaps you can suggest how you’d reword it.

                     That would be change – someone actually talking about a substantive political subject rather whining about fairness in sporting bodies."

                     Not really. I'm interesting in political impact of decisions and policies.

                     "I do like tearing dictatorial legislation apart."

                     To each their own. I'm heading out, so will leave you to your enjoyment.
                   • lprent []

                     12 July 2023 at 4:00 pm

                     Not really. I’m interesting in political impact of decisions and policies.

                     Legislation is how you determine what will be the political impact of policies over time. But you do highlight my point.

                     So far I haven’t heard a single plan of action. I guess that is because looking at detail to make something effective isn’t as nearly as interesting as boring me with repetitive statements of (mostly unsubstantiated) horror.
                   • Francesca …

                     12 July 2023 at 5:09 pm

                     Not to mention that it can be a livelihood for underprivileged youth who can really achieve better things for themselves through hard work and application .So there's an employment issue as well
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 5:13 pm

                     @lprent

                     Many did submit to both Sports NZ and to the Select Committee about the wording of legislation, policies and guidance and how lack of clarity will have real world impacts.

                     The interpretation of sports policy doesn't stand alone, when any male can now self-id as a female, and provide legal documentation for that falsity.

                     Putting aside the whole sports is elitism discussion, real world impacts of these political decisions mean that young girls in sports teams or competitions may be pressured to share changing rooms with males. This is an issue of overriding consent, and dismantling personal boundaries.

                     So, while you may enjoy your policy wonk focus, it is a focus that appears to be narrow and depends upon those in authority holding rational and considered perspectives.

                     Many of us know that is not the case, even though you may believe it to be.
                 • That_guy …

                   12 July 2023 at 2:25 pm

                   So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole

                   because women have stated that it's important to them that they can safely and fairly compete in sports and women are part of society and they get to set their priorities, not you?
                   • lprent …

                     12 July 2023 at 2:34 pm

                     because women have stated that it’s important to them that they can safely and fairly compete in sports and women are part of society and they get to set their priorities, not you?

                     Sure – that is what sports bodies are for. Join them and change their rules.

                     I can’t see how that has anything to do with NZ politics, government, or law. Unless you or they’d like to explain what legislation that plan to try to introduce. That would suit a political website.

                     This is a blog that is mainly about politics. Idle ineffective whinging about sports organisation is probably better done elsewhere. Effective change would have to be done from inside those organisations.
                   • That_guy …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:23 pm

                     @lprent I disagree that sport is not political, and most especially I disagree that sport is not political right now in the context of the interaction of women's rights and trans rights. Anything that affects the way someone might vote is surely, by definition, political.

                     I'm not going to go on about this, but I just do not find the arguments you're putting forward to be at all convincing, and I find the positions put forward by other commenters to much more reasonable and progressive.
                   • lprent []

                     12 July 2023 at 3:54 pm

                     Sure it is political – but national politics isn’t the only politics around.

                     Sports organisations are ful of it! So what is being done inside those?

                     Or is this all a whine and moan movement rather than a active one?

                     If you or anyone else thinks that it should be a one that is a national political debate – then what is trying to be achieved? Because currently national politics is fire-walled from running sports bodies or setting their rules. I rather suspect that most sports and sports people would prefer that it stays that way.

                     But at the very least any kind of movement should have some idea about how they’d have our legislative body to interfere with the rules of sports organisations. That is what I’d like to see.

                     Basically moaning and avoiding looking how to do effective changes isn’t a strategy. To be taken seriously in politics it pays to be able to pint to plan of action.

                     It also pays to think about how to write the legislation because that is really hard to do so it can be legal.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   12 July 2023 at 2:33 pm

                   I'm speechless.

                   How does ensuring fair play for women in sport equal lynching.

                   There have been campaigns for fair play for sport covering better prize money (tennis & golf) , better access to sports channels (all womens sports). Why is this like lynching?

                   Don't you agree that sport is inherently equals playing equals?
                   • lprent …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:06 pm

                     Don’t you agree that sport is inherently equals playing equals?

                     I would argue that it is the exact opposite. It is largely about identifying a lack of equality regardless of how you slice and dice sports categories.

                     If you even dig into the long history of sports categories you’ll find that it wasn’t particularly about fairness. It was about increasing the number of winners done specifically to increase the attraction to participants and audiences.

                     You can find that mercenary and avaricious motive explained all the way back to texts in ancient Greece and Rome. Moreover it was almost invariably done for the motive of increasing military readiness.

                     Fairness is so damn recent a motive in sport historically that I suspect that it was just a side-effect of a 20th century marketing strategy. Either that or the much vaunted peace between nations that is the basis of the modern Olympic movement. Something that increasingly seems laughable bearing in mind the way that many of not most national participants tend to act in practice.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:38 pm

                     Interesting point re parity – merit on both sides. Re historical context his point is valid whereas expectations nowadays are driven by peer pressure. My solidarity with leftists mainly derives from equity, which is your angle. Both individuals & team sports have biological roots but the latter integrates collaboration with competition.

                     Re the ethical dimension I'm a believer in the rights of women. Fakers or inbetweeners trying to invade ought to be eliminated. However the alphabet soup tribe have the right to stage their own games in their own arenas. I suspect that they'll get there eventually once they transcend their addiction to imperialism.
                   • lprent []

                     12 July 2023 at 4:05 pm

                     I suspect that ultimately that is what is likely to happen. It is part of the overall long-term differentiation of segment sports marketing strategy.

                     By nation, city, by league, by category, by appeals to ‘fairness’, and all of the other classic marketing segmentation techniques – that is how you ultimately maximise revenue from the suckers.

                     However we aren’t talking about my MBA marketing here. Politics at a legislative level is a quite different thing to marketing.
                 • Francesca …

                   12 July 2023 at 6:00 pm

                   I ignore it out of politeness .Its embarrassing for you
             • That_guy …

               12 July 2023 at 1:33 pm

               I am very uncomfortable with the suppression and minimisation of women's voices and the false accusations of bigotry I see coming from the owner of this site.
               • Anne …

                 12 July 2023 at 3:31 pm

                 Except that women are not being suppressed or minimised. Huge improvements have been made in recent decades. Women are accepted in every field of endeavour that exists. They can be Prime Ministers, Presidents and multi national CEOs. They can be Airline Captains, Astronauts, Navy Commanders, Airforce Commodores, Army Generals. They can be anything they want to be provided they have the right professional credentials.

                 NZ is about to host the women's Rugby World Cup. Who would have 'thunk it' a few decades ago that women would have their own place in the world of rugby.

                 Sure, there is still a way to go, but this supposition that women are still suppressed and held down is exactly that – a supposition which no longer has any basis in fact.
                 • That_guy …

                   12 July 2023 at 3:45 pm

                   It's the Football World Cup. Round ball.

                   Sure, there is still a way to go, but this supposition that women are still suppressed and held down is exactly that – a supposition which no longer has any basis in fact.

                   Women say different. I have a superpower, granted to me by small appendages on either side of my head, called "ears", or "taringa" if you want to rile up a racist, and they grant me an ability called "listening".
                   I use this amazing superpower to ascertain what women are saying about women's rights in their own words and then I draw conclusions. I don't agree with your position.
                 • That_guy …

                   12 July 2023 at 4:09 pm

                   Oh, and while we're talking about the Rugby World Cup. My son was at the final. Life-changing, he will remember it forever. Strong women, playing their hearts out, full stadium, the glorious Ruby try, the Hand Of Ngan-Woo, a magnificent result that will stand forever as a high point in Women's rugby*.

                   * This asterix is to represent the fact that there is no asterix attached to the Black Fern's win at the WRC, and there never will be.
                   • lprent …

                     12 July 2023 at 4:16 pm

                     The last time I watched a whole rugby game or a rugby league game or any kind of sports was back in the early 1980s on TV.

                     Nowhere near as exciting as going to Eden Park where I spent much my youth. I decided after the last time that I had other more productive things to do that were more productive and didn’t waste my time watching other people exercising. Also after doing actual military training, I wasn’t that enamoured of play-combat.

                     Pretty much the same with most sports.
                   • That_guy …

                     12 July 2023 at 4:42 pm

                     Also after doing actual military training, I wasn’t that enamoured of play-combat.

                     Duly noted, I'll try not to get into a fight with you, or at least will try to keep the fight verbal 🙂
                 • Phillip ure …

                   12 July 2023 at 5:36 pm

                   Wot anne said…
               • Anker …

                 12 July 2023 at 5:58 pm

                 Thank you That_guy. Agree with everything you are saying and appreciated everything you are saying.
             • Francesca …

               12 July 2023 at 1:37 pm

               Are you saying that sex makes no difference in the ability to develop muscle, lung and heart capacity?

               Some men are pipsqueaks , or fat and unfit, strong women could beat them with a hand tied behind their back

               But at the top layers of sport, only a very mediocre man will lose to a woman .Generally, the majority of top athlete men are going to be stronger than top athlete women .Witness Lia Thomas , a mediocre performer in the male category, a champion in the female

               But a top athlete man will always beat a top athlete woman (in those sports where strength and stamina matter)

               Segregation has been based on sex , not gender by the way
               • lprent …

                 12 July 2023 at 2:29 pm

                 Some men are pipsqueaks , or fat and unfit, strong women could beat them with a hand tied behind their back

                 But at the top layers of sport, only a very mediocre man will lose to a woman .Generally, the majority of top athlete men are going to be stronger than top athlete women .

                 etc….

                 Self-evident, and something that I have pointed out repeatably.

                 But how has that any relevance outside of sports bodies? Our government and courts don’t make the rules that govern sports bodies. And I can’t see any reason why it has any political relevance for wider society.

                 Unless you are proposing that all private bodies should have their rules determined by parliament and administered by district courts? It’d overturn centuries of jurisprudence, would probably require a ubiquitous secret police larger than the Stasi to enforce.

                 I can just see how the sports-people, women or otherwise, would absolutely love that….

                 Rapidly moving to consider that there is a congenital logical defect amongst the proponents of this dictatorial fetish.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   12 July 2023 at 2:41 pm

                   There has been a legal and governmental background to this and that is enshrined in the NZBDM self ID provisions.

                   This, like in other countries in the world is now flowing into areas such as women's sports where mediocre sportsmen can say they are women and claim prizes. We've seen this in women's cycling and swimming.

                   Molly's post was about the fact that sometimes males being females is not done with the stroke of a pen in a govt registry office as part of self ID later in life, but is a mistake made by observation at birth. . As with Caster Semenya.
                   • lprent …

                     12 July 2023 at 2:55 pm

                     That is amendments to legislation that was written in conformance with international treaties about paperwork for cross-border travel. It is a legal question about identification – not identity. I’d explain the distinction but I’m sure that your obsession with formal identity should already be aware of this.

                     Such treaties and downstream legislation have provisions about how faces should be presented to cameras. What kinds of biometric data should stored in travel documents. Either directly or by who is granted authority to make decisions on requirements.

                     The remainder of NZBDM is about the storing historical records on par with legislative requirements about how long I should keep financial records for the tax department.

                     Having a gender or sex recorded in such documents is more a historical accident about how identification techniques worked in the 19th century than anything legal inside NZ.
                 • Francesca …

                   12 July 2023 at 4:14 pm

                   Is the NZ Rugby Union for instance privately owned ?

                   I thought there was a fair amount of govt funding there

                   In fact a great deal of taxpayers money goes into sports funding, often with conditions that fairness and sex equity are applied .That is a political stance right there

                   https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/300581663/nz-rugby-to-lose-some-government-funding-after-not-meeting-board-gender-diversity-
       • Francesca 8.1.3.2

         12 July 2023 at 12:33 pm

         Well you did better than me Shanreagh and Molly
         • Molly 8.1.3.2.1

           12 July 2023 at 12:57 pm

           Apparently my time in the naughty corner – for reasons unspecified – is up.

           Comment has been allowed through:

           .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959128
           • Molly 8.1.3.2.1.1

             12 July 2023 at 1:36 pm

             Spoke too soon.

             Response to lprent @ .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959185 is in moderation again…
             • Francesca …

               12 July 2023 at 1:40 pm

               me too

               Tiresome, I'll stop .Its his site and he can summarily dismiss whoever he likes.
               • Molly …

                 12 July 2023 at 1:44 pm

                 "Tiresome, I'll stop .Its his site and he can summarily dismiss whoever he likes."

                 Of course he can.

                 It's good to know that is the case and the practice for certainty's sake.
                 • weka …

                   12 July 2023 at 3:04 pm

                   no-one is being summarily dismissed. Lynn has slowed down the conversation by putting some key words in the spam filter (ie it's not people that are being premodded). He will then release those comments manually.

                   Keywords filtering doesn't happen a lot on TS, but it does have precedent.
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:08 pm

                     Thanks for the explanation, weka.

                     What words should be avoided?

                     Or is the intention – as you say – just to slow down this particular thread for reasons unspecified?
                   • weka []

                     12 July 2023 at 3:22 pm

                     it would kind of defeat the purpose to name the words in the front end. Slowing down the conversation will improve the debate, so I’d go with that (eg don’t comment again until your previous comment has been released).

                     Lots of other good topics on offer today.
                   • weka []

                     12 July 2023 at 3:24 pm

                     I’ve only skimmed some of the debate, but if the core issue for Lynn is that sport is inherently elitist and should be dealt with at the sporting body level and thus it’s not a political issue, then I’d argue against that (it’s clear to me it’s a political issue in a number of ways but I don’t have time to read Lynn’s comments to make the argument against his position).
                   • lprent []

                     12 July 2023 at 3:43 pm

                     Sports bodies are currently separated by a legislative firewall from legislative politics.

                     Sports bodies here are self-administering by members and their usually elected officials with their own internal politics, rules, and tribunal ‘courts’.

                     However this site is about the politics of the country. That is expressed largely by legislation directly or indirectly.

                     If people what to moan about fairness in sport within out current legal framework, then they should do it inside those organisations.

                     If they want to move that particular aspect of ‘fairness’ to our legislative framework, then repetitive and extremely boring coordinated moaning simply isn’t a sufficient strategy to form anything around. You need to at least suggest solutions, and in the legislative frame work that is legislation or regulation based on legislation.

                     The level of avoidance of that simple observation is what pisses me off about this debate. So I’m giving a good kick up the arse with appropriate sneering for motivation to get off the damn pot and figure out what and how something could be done (or not).

                     So I’ve been doing that between code sessions today.

                     Personally I simply can’t see what problem that they’re trying to fix outside of some kind of bigotry that I don’t share. But sport appears to be the only place where it is possible to see a systematic issue with any number of documented instances.

                     So most of this is

                     1. why is sport relevant?
                     2. who controls sporting rules?
                     3. why should the legislative body for the country get involved?
                     4. how would they do that?
                     5. how far would that affect other legislation and other social issues?

                     In other words, pretty much the exact process that every other social movement has followed to get social changes into legislative changes.

                     I think we’re at 3 or 4 right now.
                   • Molly …

                     12 July 2023 at 3:28 pm

                     @weka

                     Thanks. I'm attempting to ascertain lprents position, and respond accordingly, but the moderation process in place does as you say – disrupts the natural flow.

                     Heading out anyway, so the moderation technique will have little effect on further responses.
                   • Francesca …

                     12 July 2023 at 4:26 pm

                     Thanks

                     I wonder how the key words are chosen?

                     I do try to keep my comments impersonal without rancour
                     I’m off for a long walk up the hill anyway
                   • SPC …

                     12 July 2023 at 7:15 pm

                     Sports bodies are currently separated by a legislative firewall from legislative politics.

                     Then this happened

                     Caster Semenya won an appeal against track and field's testosterone rules today when the European Court of Human Rights

                     https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/07/12/semenya-wins-human-rights-case-against-testosterone-rules/
     • Anker 8.1.4

       12 July 2023 at 5:07 pm

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

       Or rather than having to engage with this you could just accept the view of Dr Ross Tucker a sports scientist who was commissioned by the International Rugby Union to provide a sport on transgender in womens sport.

       If you really don't like sport so much, I am not sure why you are bothering to engage in this topic at all.
9. Shanreagh 9

   12 July 2023 at 11:23 am

   An 5aR2D performance lottery of sorts – shared – quite coincidentally by the other two place holders for the 800m women's Rio Olympic games in 2016:

   https://youtu.be/psxr58zKi6g

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

   So this EHRC ruling relies on the already badly drafted rule about testosterone lowering that is an affront to the women's sports categories.

   It is an example of how incompetence by World Athletics in creating this rule, creates opportunity for even further erosion of women's sports categories, where even the farce of testosterone reduction is abandoned.

   That 2016 final was shameful. I have long felt so sorry for the woman who finished 4th, beaten in to that place by males and incompetence by World Athletics. I know we are not supposed to be able to act on the evidence of our eyes in this, (not that I believe this) but having had a love of track & field and been around competitors/competing in a minor way when young, my eyes were telling me that these were males. Their running gait and the view front on tells me that.

   People seem to be twisting themselves in knots sticking up for the likes of Caster Semenya while women in athletics are deprived of a chance to win fairly.

   I know I should not be surprised by this, but it continually surprises me that this kind of chauvinism/misogyny/male focus is allowed.

   Perhaps the authorities should start with a basic premise that womens events are for women only.

   Birth certificates issued on the observed sex at birth criteria do the job most of the time. It is a mistake, and will increasingly be a mistake with self ID, to base ability to compete in women's events on the holding of a birth certificate showing you were registered as a female. Caster Semenya seems to have known about her advantaged status for running in women's events since the age of 11.

   So, it is important to note that Caster Semenya was diagnosed at eleven as a male with 5aR2D, despite being mistakenly assigned female at birth. So, the birth certificate, which provides the legal "sex" of female – was incorrect at the time of issue.
   • Sabine 9.1

     12 July 2023 at 12:27 pm

     Its ok, its only women – human females who are losing. s/
     • Francesca 9.1.1

       12 July 2023 at 12:39 pm

       Actually Sabine, men make the best women .Their front holes are the best money can buy.Womens vaginas are so passé
       • Sabine 9.1.1.1

         12 July 2023 at 12:41 pm

         It's a brave new world out there.
       • Shanreagh 9.1.1.2

         12 July 2023 at 12:57 pm

         Warning extreme sarc/ and borderline crudity follows

         And if you haven't got the money or don't want to actually go the distance chemically ot surgery-wise then the tried and true single back one is always worth a go/having.

         I mean you don't have to look, feel or be a woman-or -trying -to -trans, to be a woman. As Visubversa says there's the gendered soul to think about.
         • Sabine 9.1.1.2.1

           12 July 2023 at 1:29 pm

           Maybe we should ask "what is trans' and more importantly 'who is trans'.

           Something to soothe your heart….
           
           • Molly 9.1.1.2.1.1

             13 July 2023 at 8:45 am

             Thanks for that, I enjoyed the music, so looked up the lyrics and my appreciation increased.
             • Sabine …

               13 July 2023 at 9:38 am

               She is good, all of her stuff is good. Glad you enjoyed it.
   • Visubversa 9.2

     12 July 2023 at 1:10 pm

     Some useful information here.

     https://lascapigliata.com/2020/09/10/on-intersex-transgender-and-womens-sport/

     "Disorders of sex development (DSDs or intersex) occur when something goes wrong and our bodies recieve erroneous signals, or fail to receive the right ones, and our development proceeds down the wrong pathway. However, because our genetic template is still either male or female, these anomalies can only impair that template, they cannot switch a male into a female or vice versa, and nowhere is this more apparent than in DSDs".

     "Semenya was born with 5ARD, a DSD that only affects 46 XY biological males. An X-linked genetic mutation, 5ARD prevents the body from producing enough of steroid 5-alpha reductase 2, an enzyme responsible for converting testosterone into DHT, which is in turn responsible for development of male genitalia before birth. So babies with 5ARD are born with ambiguous genitals, micropenis, hypospadias or even female-appearing genitals. They can sometimes be mistaken for girls, or deliberately raised as girls, but if they are allowed to develop normally, and their testicles aren’t removed in a “gender assigning” procedure, they will experience male puberty, and with it, all the associated changed that will give them sporting advantage over female competitors,"
10. Alan 10

    12 July 2023 at 11:35 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132531178/hipkins-rules-out-wealth-and-capital-gains-tax–end-of-story

    Will make for interesting negotiating with the Greens and TPM.
    • Dennis Frank 10.1

      12 July 2023 at 11:46 am

      Doesn't mean dying in the ditch with leftist neoliberals. Just a campaign strategy to try & milk floating neolib voters. Any negotiating may also feature this guy:

      We need police to enforce the law, but we also need a judicial system that holds these offenders to account. There is no security of our future if we continue with the madness of this ‘catch and release’ excuse for a policy that has crept into our justice system over the last decade. There are no rights without responsibilities. So what has happened to ‘personal responsibility’?

      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2306/S00077/rt-hon-winston-peters-2023-new-zealands-inflection-point.htm

      Evasion of responsibility ain't just the judiciary wimping out though. It's in cabinet.
      • Alan 10.1.1

        12 July 2023 at 11:52 am

        Peters has emphatically ruled out working with Labour, "you do not get to lie to me twice" etc.
        • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1

          12 July 2023 at 12:07 pm

          True, he did. Perhaps I ought not to discount that ploy. Being resolute about any of his stances is indeed characteristic of him. However, in the dim distant past I do recall him doing a u-turn that got him into cabinet…
          • Alan 10.1.1.1.1

            12 July 2023 at 12:12 pm

            Having made such a clear statement about not working with Labour and repeating it regularly, he knows he would be vilified if he did flip flop.
            • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1.1.1

              12 July 2023 at 12:18 pm

              It would be in the negotiations, combined with baubles of office plus policy agreements. He would counter any media vilification with the latter. That's how he framed it last time, eh?
              • Alan …

                12 July 2023 at 12:58 pm

                He would not be able to show his face in public, he knows that.
    • Shanreagh 10.2

      12 July 2023 at 11:52 am

      Thank goodness for that.

      The Greens have better policies to look at than their Wealth tax policy ie policies that take us forward rather than joining the great clobbering machine and the unfortunate Tall Poppy syndrome we seem to claim as second nature here in NZ.

      I'm hoping for a Labour win but accept that we may have to work it with TPM and The Greens.

      TPM Income policy

      https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/income

      I cannot see that they have supported a wealth tax or CGT.

      .
      • Shanreagh 10.2.1

        12 July 2023 at 11:57 am

        “Particularly based on a revenue neutral switch that would have seen a tax-free zone created of up to $10,000, funded by increased tax on the wealthiest New Zealanders.”

        “This work began in 2022, but ultimately the decision was made not to go ahead with it given the significance of the change in difficult and highly uncertain economic conditions."

        I support wholeheartedly the changing of tax brackets to remove bracket creep and actually support the ranges of tax brackets put up by the Greens in their Wealth tax but without the Wealth Tax component.
        • SPC 10.2.1.1

          12 July 2023 at 1:43 pm

          Unfunded tax cuts have what impact on funding of public services – such as health, state housing, income support?
          • Shanreagh 10.2.1.1.1

            12 July 2023 at 1:58 pm

            The Greens tax brackets actually affect the higher incomes so my imperfect understanding is that they will add rather than be unfunded and the Greens have chosen to fund their version of a a UBI from the higher take.

            Again my imperfect understanding is that if the brackets were expanded without being used to fund anything specific it would be available for use by the govt in power.

            Of course some of the tax take will go to smoothing out any shortfall from say giving all tax payers a no tax to be paid on the first $10,000 earned.
            • SPC 10.2.1.1.1.1

              12 July 2023 at 2:07 pm

              The income tax changes proposed by Greens are dependent on the wealth tax money.
              • Shanreagh …

                12 July 2023 at 2:12 pm

                So what are they funding the UBI to lift people out of poverty on then? Why is this linked in with the Wealth tax?

                I would much prefer that a scheme to lift people out of poverty was explicitly paid for out of a Vote: rather than being hidden in the Wealth tax proposals.
                ie a tied tax.
                • SPC …

                  12 July 2023 at 2:48 pm

                  It's a total income and tax package.
                  • Shanreagh …

                    12 July 2023 at 3:09 pm

                    ?

                    That is my point I don't agree with that because it involves

                    • tied taxes
                    • tax on so-called wealthy people
                    • no explicit govt funding through Vote: Social Welfare for lifting the lowest rates so that poverty can be alleviated.
                    • SPC …

                      12 July 2023 at 3:21 pm

                      • tax on so-called wealthy people

                      Less than 1% of people own assets over $2M single and $4M couples. The highest markets have homes at $1M.

                      • no explicit govt funding through Vote: Social Welfare for lifting the lowest rates so that poverty can be alleviated.

                      All tax revenue (GST, income, company) and or any necessary borrowing is allocated to votes after it is received, – health, education, welfare.
        • UncookedSelachimorpha 10.2.1.2

          12 July 2023 at 3:51 pm

          "I support wholeheartedly the changing of tax brackets to remove bracket creep and actually support the ranges of tax brackets put up by the Greens in their Wealth tax but without the Wealth Tax component."

          The whole point is that income tax rates have almost no impact on the truly wealthy – who have very little IRD-declared taxable income. Unless you expand collection outside of income tax, extreme unfairness driving extreme inequality and disadvantage, will persist, no matter what income tax rates you apply.
      • SPC 10.2.2

        12 July 2023 at 1:46 pm

        The Greens have better policies to look at than their Wealth tax policy ie policies that take us forward rather than joining the great clobbering machine and the unfortunate Tall Poppy syndrome we seem to claim as second nature here in NZ.

        When in reality, we have the most cossetted tall poppies in the OECD.

        Two thirds of nations in the OECD have CGT and estate tax. Only one has no CGT – us. We also have no stamp duty, nor any tax on unused land.
        • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1

          12 July 2023 at 2:08 pm

          Now stamp duty, death duties, transaction tax on real estate sales & shares I can understand. People either have a choice whether to embark on the activity or the duty is paid at natural way points in the life ie purchase or death.

          It doesn't make a person pay for what they cannot control ie inflation affecting land or other property as wealth taxes do. We pay for the fact that inflation was not controlled in times past when we as individuals had no way of avoiding than Canute of commanding the sea to retreat.

          If we wanted to bring in a tax on unused land, always inherently unfair to the owner of Maori land we could look at that, though I would prefer it was on residential houses etc only.
          • SPC 10.2.2.1.1

            12 July 2023 at 2:47 pm

            It doesn't make a person pay for what they cannot control ie inflation affecting land or other property as wealth taxes do

            So you favour growing wealth via property ownership with no tax until the estate phase – and presumably gift duties on any transfer of untaxed CG before then?
            • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1.1.1

              12 July 2023 at 3:04 pm

              I don't favour anything really other than PAYE.

              I think govts really have to make the case for any extra taxes at all. So far I have not seen any except for clobbering those who bought a home or who took the deep breath and saved for retirement. I don't agree with tied taxes ie a special tax that will be imposed to pay for this or that. This means that the the hands of the Govt of the day are tied, they don't get the full benefit of the tax take and have to fund through tied taxation, programmes that might be better funded through general taxation. I class the Greens UBI policy as one of these.

              If other forms of taxation are required I favour those that do not make the last person in the chain pay for all the inflation that has been built in by Govts in times past and that are not able to be controlled by the individual.

              If we find we need to do this extra tax then a modest % on death duties or as a financial transaction tax on real estate or shares seems fair (sort of).

              As a first step a thorough looking at PAYE seems to be a good move.
              • weka …

                12 July 2023 at 3:28 pm

                a yearly wealth tax on top end wealth is a kind of pay as you earn. That's the point of it, to tax that income alongside wages as the income is coming in.

                If instead of making $500,000 via property capital gains over say a decade, someone was earning that from a salary, should that $500,000 of salary income not be taxed? What's the difference between the two?
                • Shanreagh …

                  12 July 2023 at 3:51 pm

                  The payment is not a PAYE type situation as there is no ‘folding’, ‘moola’ or cash coming in. It is a notional or book transaction.

                  If the person was already paying PAYE on wages or a salary it would be an additional tax and they would pay some of their tax paid wages or salary on meeting this new cost. So just because a person has a high KS balance or a family home does not mean they have cash assets or salary to match to pay an ongoing tax. I just think it is a blunt instrument.

                  I think it is inherently unfair for an individual to pay for so-called wealth when 99% of the time the 'wealth' has been brought about by the actions of Govts in not controlling inflation. Until a way point comes along, a person is not able to so-called cash in on this inflation fuelled rising price. Wages, salaries and benefits don't seemed to have increased at the same rate.

                  The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                  I support PAYE. I support looking at PAYE as a first step.

                  Any extra taxes or types of taxes the Govt should be making the case for.
                  • weka …

                    12 July 2023 at 9:15 pm

                    The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                    and in fact the GP policy allows for exactly that. Why do you keep ignoring that? If someone can't pay the tax they can defer it, at which point it becomes a defacto death/sales tax.

                    But, people tap into that wealth all the time. Their ability to borrow to buy a second house for instance is far above that of someone with no assets or even people still paying off a mortgage. Or finance a business, or whatever else they want to do.
                  • Incognito …

                    12 July 2023 at 10:01 pm

                    The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                    Here we are again, going around circles because you (don’t want to) listen.

                    The Wealth Tax can be deferred. One can borrow against the asset. All the while you can continue living in $2M home mortgage-free and not paying a cent in rent. If you are in this situation then you are one of the so-called actual 1%. Just accept it.
              • UncookedSelachimorpha …

                12 July 2023 at 3:53 pm

                "I don't favour anything really other than PAYE."

                That basically means the wealthy will pay far less tax than anyone else, as they currently do.
                • Shanreagh …

                  12 July 2023 at 4:17 pm

                  Realigning PAYE, company, trust etc tax will go a long way.

                  We should do this first is my suggestion.

                  Then explicitly advise why and what other revenue sources need to be tapped into. Put out a range of different mechanisms to discuss.

                  I favour taxes that are aligned at natural waypoints such as sale and death. So taxing people who have book assets when they have no cash assets to pay a tax on the book assets seems odd & unfair.

                  If we are just going to defer it until death if people cannot pay yearly, why not go the whole hog and just impose it at death and not all the way through. I know the income stream is lumpy but we have worked with being able to forecast income coming in from death duties ……
                  • SPC …

                    12 July 2023 at 4:39 pm

                    Multiple property owners can borrow against the rising value of their properties and pay not tax on that model.

                    Most people buying and selling homes are moving onto another one, so most they either be exempt or the impost would reduce their home equity (note most countries exempt over 90% of homes from CGT, and only some have stamp duty).

                    And if all the unpaid CGT is deferred to estate tax, it will have to be a high rate and taxation on transfer as gifts tax before then.
                    • Shanreagh …

                      12 July 2023 at 5:07 pm

                      Sorry have we got a CGT? What is the unpaid CGT?

                      I am proposing a financial transactions tax and death duties if the tax take from PAYE, Company and Trust tax is not enough. .

                      I also favour no taxation on KS. KS is deducted after tax is paid wages and salaries.
                    • SPC …

                      12 July 2023 at 5:26 pm

                      We are the only nation in the OECD with no tax on CG.

                      Allowing dispersal of gifts from wealth derived from asset growth such as untaxed CG on property sales means an estate tax would be a joke – thus little or no tax on realised CG wealth.

                      Such would allow inter-generational wealth transfer – the basis of a class system.

                      Are you proposing that those who have their family home in a trust should pay a tax on that value, or only a tax on the income made by the trust should be set at a higher rate?

                      Are you proposing that companies that made a profit of less than $48,000 should pay tax at below the current company tax rate and that those that made more than $180,00 should pay 39 cents?
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …

                    12 July 2023 at 4:51 pm

                    So taxing people who have book assets when they have no cash assets to pay a tax on the book assets seems odd & unfair.

                    "Unfair" – only up to a point, surely? The Green's point is an eye-watering $2,000,000 per person, apparently affecting <1% of Kiwis.

                    If that bar is too low, then how about $3 mill per person – or $5 mill? Is there any point at which it would be acceptable to tax “book assets“?

                    The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table [16 August 2022]
                    The richest 10% of New Zealanders hold more than half the country’s wealth. The poorer half of the population, meanwhile, holds just 2%. So why are we still so reluctant to talk about wealth inequality?

                    

                    Dennis Frank's observation about how timid today's politicians seem compared to the first labour government had me scurrying for a list of significant policies between 1936 and 1939, which revealed this gem:

                    • The graduated land tax was reintroduced at high rates.
                    • The top rate of income tax was significantly increased, from 42.9% (and 57% for 'unearned income' such as rent, interest or dividends) in 1939 to 76.5% by 1949.

                    Fair’s fair? All moot anyhow – Labour MPs won't vote for a wealth tax, or any increase in CGTs, while Hipkins leads the party.

                    https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/fairs-fair
                    • Shanreagh …

                      12 July 2023 at 5:23 pm

                      I guess that is the point Drowsy.

                      I am highly sceptical that the rates/ideas/concepts of wealth covered by the Greens proposals will catch the

                      The richest 10% of New Zealanders hold more than half the country’s wealth.

                      These are the people most likely to be able to move money etc to avoid scenarios where they would pay wealth tax. I would predict their assets/incomes will barely be touched.

                      By the same token I don't believe that people with a family home and KS are actually included in that 10%. Yet the Greens tax will reach down to tax their assets.

                      I have the feeling it will catch many who by the operation of inflation only are deemed to be 'wealthy' ie a book value only, have no cash assets or have gone all out to put money into KS. I don't live in a high wealth suburb in Wellington but my home is valued for rating purposes at $1.2m. Houses in the suburb are selling today at around $945-950, 000.

                      Unless I sell that is not my 'wealth', I cannot realise it until I sell.

                      Unless I die my Trustees cannot sell and realise the value.

                      Hence the commonsense approach is a financial transactions tax and a death duties tax.
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …

                    12 July 2023 at 5:56 pm

                    These are the people most likely to be able to move money etc to avoid scenarios where they would pay wealth tax. I would predict their assets/incomes will barely be touched.

                    Tax avoidance by the top 10% is indeed a headache for everyone else.

                    Ending Poverty Together
                    Our plan will end poverty and make sure everyone has enough to put food on the table, a safe place to call home, and live a decent life – and we’ll pay for it with a fair tax system.

                    Apart from a wealth tax of 2.5% on net assets over the first $2 million per person, another aspect of the Green's "Ending Poverty Together" plan which appealed to me was a flat tax on family trusts.

                    Greens wealth tax proposal ignites the tax debate just as the IMF suggests it's time for a capital gains tax.
                    For family trusts there is no nil rate band or threshold at all. It's a flat 1.5% which is a deliberate anti-avoidance mechanism.

                    Imho we need more "deliberate anti-avoidance mechanisms" – it should be made much 'easier' for Kiwis to pay their fair share of tax.

                    By the same token I don’t believe that people with a family home and KS are actually included in that 10%. Yet the Greens tax will reach down to tax their assets.

                    Will it though? If I was the owner and sole occupant of a house worth $1.2 million, I would still need to have other assets (savings/shares) of $0.8 million to be subject to a wealth tax, and even then the tax would only be due on the assets in excess of $2 million.
                • Shanreagh …

                  12 July 2023 at 4:19 pm

                  I don't agree. The wealthy use the company and trust vehicles and tapping into those as well as PAYE will work.
                • SPC …

                  12 July 2023 at 4:20 pm

                  As Warren Buffet put it, and this is in a country with a CGT, he paid less tax on his income (per dollar) than his secretary did on her wages.
            • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1.1.2

              12 July 2023 at 4:23 pm

              I thought we had done away with Gift Duty.

              We have

              https://www.taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/2011/2011-sr-gift-duty-abolition/gift-duty-abolition

              The change follows a review of gift duty, which revealed that the compliance costs far outweigh both the revenue it collects and the limited protections it has offered to prevent tax avoidance, social assistance targeting and defeat of creditors.

              Unless gift duty fitted in with one of the way points of sale or death I wouldn't look at reimposing it.
              • SPC …

                12 July 2023 at 4:43 pm

                You have a problem with trusts, but not with dispersing the estate without any gift duty impost?

                If their argument is correct, it is one in favour of a wealth tax in preference to an estate tax.
                • Shanreagh …

                  12 July 2023 at 5:34 pm

                  I don't have a problem with trusts? If I did it does not follow that I would support gift duty. My view is that any $$$$ from a Trust should be added to a donnee's/person's income and they pay PAYE on this.

                  I think trust tax, company tax and PAYE should be strengthened and improved so more of NZ's tax take comes from there.

                  I think we could do better than a wealth tax by the financial services tax and a death duties tax. I cannot understand the objection to paying it on death.

                  I thought as socialists we did not go for inherited wealth? So why is this unpopular.

                  I for one have no problem at all on death duties being levied on my estate.
                  • SPC …

                    12 July 2023 at 5:50 pm

                    If someone wants all liable tax on CG deferred to a tax on the estate. And would also allow all of the estate to be dispersed before death via gift duties, one might surmise they want a design they allows them to avoid paying any such tax.

                    But to then couch this as supporting a tax on inherited wealth, what is left of it, is brazen.

                    It seems you have an understanding of how easy it is to avoid all taxes but PAYE, GST, CGT and a wealth tax. If there is a gift duty, an estate tax is also hard to avoid.
      • Incognito 10.2.3

        12 July 2023 at 9:04 pm

        Our current tax system has poor and working class people subsidising the lifestyles of the rich. We need to shift this tax burden through new taxes on wealth including capital gains, ghost house tax, financial services tax, and well as land and pollution taxes.

        https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/gst_free_kai

        It is not (yet) a policy, it seems …

        BTW, your link was dated August 06, 2021, i.e., almost 2 years old.
    • Corey 10.3

      12 July 2023 at 11:54 am

      Now IS the time to reform our tax system, EVERY other party is pushing tax reforms and the public is demanding it.

      When he says "end of story" the irony is, he's talking about his political career.

      Once again, Labour takes the most gutless, conservative, cowardly approach and brings a knife to a gunfight.

      All this man, has said for six months is what Labour won't do, he's never told us what Labour will do.

      Now in his cowardice, he's attacking his friends policies. , While refusing to release one himself.

      Labour is so terrified of having a debate on anything meaningful, or doing anything meaningful that they've become by definition , atleast economically Tory's, by fighting and refusing change.

      God help us.

      We have Nat/act skyrocketing and threatening and all out class war and Ruthenasia 2.0 and Labours waving a white flag.

      Sometimes I wonder if Labour wants to lose the election because they actually agree with some of what Nat/Act want to do, but couldn't do it themselves so are just throwing the election.
      • Dennis Frank 10.3.1

        12 July 2023 at 12:10 pm

        just throwing the election

        Heh. Definitely an impression that has entered my mind once or twice the past couple of years!
      • Sabine 10.3.2

        12 July 2023 at 12:39 pm

        Sometimes I wonder if Labour wants to lose the election because they actually agree with some of what Nat/Act want to do, but couldn't do it themselves so are just throwing the election.

        I see it more as a bipartisan effort and National is going to be the one finishing – i agree that Labour might not want to win – what was started a long time ago. Neo-liberalism or Stakeholder Capitalism on steroids. But at least we can identify as a donkey with he/haw pronouns.
11. Bearded Git 11

    12 July 2023 at 11:39 am

    Listening to ZB where they just said that the Te Huia train, which has temporarily been stopped short of Auckland for safety reasons, is carrying 321 people a weekday from Hamilton to Auckland which is regarded as a success.
    • Visubversa 11.1

      12 July 2023 at 1:13 pm

      Te Huia went through 2 red lights. A big safety problem with trains.
      • Dennis Frank 11.1.1

        12 July 2023 at 1:22 pm

        Obviously due to hiring Aucklanders. Hire provincial drivers instead. They tend to cruise easily. Problem solved.
    • Belladonna 11.2

      12 July 2023 at 2:16 pm

      My understanding is that the train will be short-stopped at Papakura, where the passengers will have to transfer to bus – until safety systems can be installed (estimate a year away)

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300925717/te-huia-train-banned-from-auckland-city-after-twice-failing-to-stop-on-red

      The report I heard on RNZ – said that buses would be free this week – but afterwards would have to be paid for by passengers – at an additional cost on top of the rail ticket.

      I'm not clear on why they have to transfer to bus, rather than another rail service (unless it's to do with the ongoing Kiwirail closure of train lines for maintenance)

      But it will mean that travel times will substantially increase – as the buses will be caught up in the southern motorway morning gridlock.
      • Sabine 11.2.1

        12 July 2023 at 3:02 pm

        And it will also cost more if on top of the train tickets you have to pay full bus price from south akl to britomart and back. Might be cheaper and more convenient to drive the guzzler.
        • Belladonna 11.2.1.1

          12 July 2023 at 6:34 pm

          I expect that for workers (who are already shelling out $18 for the train fare – the bus would be an extra $7) – it will be the extra time which is the killer, rather than the cost. Combined with the inconvenience of the bus trip (it's relatively doable and relaxed to work on a train as you travel into the city – but not nearly so achievable on a bus)

          So – if your train + bus trip is going to take 3.5- 4 hours, whereas the car takes 2.5 hours – I think most working people would flag the train/bus.

          Current full Te Huia trip is 2.5 hours – (driving is around the same – maybe a little quicker – but no one has been claiming the train trip is significantly faster than driving)

          Frankton to Papakura = 1 hr, 55 mins.

          https://www.tehuiatrain.co.nz/timetables/

          Bus trip from Papakura to Britomart in rush hour = around another 2 hours – according to ATs traffic planner (though it does seem to route you a strange way – the direct bus replacement – if any – may be quicker – possibly 1.5 hours).

          And that's assuming that there will be a bus (or space on it) for a trainload of passengers.

          And further assuming that you manage to get a bus in the afternoon which will get you to Papakura in time to catch the one and only train to Hamilton.

          Still not understanding why AT is promoting a bus replacement, rather than an AT southern line train service (but their communications are often impenetrable)
          • Sabine 11.2.1.1.1

            13 July 2023 at 9:44 am

            I am an avid public transport user as i don't have a car. Cost and time is both a consideration.

            The best way to get from Papakura to Auckland is to bus which takes 43 min and costs $7 – $45. Alternatively, you can train, which costs $4 – $50 and takes 50 min.

            so it will take an extra 43 min at a min cost of 5 – 7 one way. 10 – 14 $D per day extra and another 1.5 hours of travel time. Even if you go wit the min 45 – 50$ for the week, that is still a steep price increase.

            You might as well take the guzzler.

            This train was destined to fail from the beginning. Greenwashing at its finest, which is sad, as travelling by train to work is one of the nicest ways to get to and from work, and if done right a lot more people would live without cars. Oh well.
      • William 11.2.2

        12 July 2023 at 5:52 pm

        The 1news story quotes KiwiRail operations executive manager Paul Ashton as saying

        “For the rest of this week, there will be bus replacements between The Strand, Puhinui and Papakura, and customers will not be charged for this bus replacement service.

        Next week, we will be running the service to Papakura. Customers will then need to connect into an Auckland Transport service using a HOP Card to continue, as they did when Te Huia first launched in April 2021."

        Which I guess includes the possibility of continuing by commuter rail. There's probably a need for AT to organise extra carriages & train staff for next week onwards, although I admit I'm also not up to date with current Auckland track closures for maintenance. The Te Huia ticket could also reduce to reflect the decreased level of service.

        It seems odd to me that other Kiwi Rail services & freight are still to be allowed to run into Auckland when presumably they too lack the now stipulated safety equipment. According to the Public Transport Users Association Press Release there have been multiple other infractions that haven't raised Waka Kotahi's ire, and there's other possible solutions such as double manning in the drivers cab.
        • Belladonna 11.2.2.1

          12 July 2023 at 6:46 pm

          Yes, I agree that AT rail seems to be a much better solution than bus – and wonder why it's not being promoted.

          The train service from Papakura to Britomart is around an hour – a fair bit quicker and more convenient than buses.

          It would still add around 30 minutes to the trip – but a lot better than nearly 2 hours by bus.
        • Belladonna 11.2.2.2

          12 July 2023 at 6:59 pm

          According to the Public Transport Users Association Press Release there have been multiple other infractions that haven't raised Waka Kotahi's ire

          If the PTUA have this evidence – then it would be good to release it (or link to where it can be found).

          They don't seem to have a useful web or even Facebook presence at all. It just seems to be PR, rather than actual content.
12. Cricklewood 12

    12 July 2023 at 11:40 am

    Feels like a knee jerk reaction to one bad poll.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132531178/hipkins-rules-out-wealth-and-capital-gains-tax–end-of-story

    Unsprising but very disappointed.
    • Bearded Git 12.1

      12 July 2023 at 12:08 pm

      I don't agree with it (and will vote Green) but I think it is quite clever because instead of the focus being on the poor poll the focus is now on a responsive government listening to the people.

      Hipkins justification is weak and illogical though. He was just quoted on RNZ as saying it was not the right time to impose a CGT or WT because of the cost of living crisis. But the Green's WT only negatively effects the top 0.7%; for the other 99.3% it is either neutral or puts money in their pockets.
      • Dennis Frank 12.1.1

        12 July 2023 at 12:13 pm

        His paranoia seems to come from being seen as reformist. No way he wants that! So we get the paradox of a party pretending to be progressive whilst actually being conservative. Nothing wrong with his attempt to game the system in his cynical way – just a question of how many voters get fooled again.
      • Jack 12.1.2

        12 July 2023 at 12:15 pm

        Just more stuff Labour won’t do.

        When will labour start announcing what they will do, other than eat sausage rolls of course?
        • Bearded Git 12.1.2.1

          12 July 2023 at 12:35 pm

          Health reform, 3 waters reform, RMA reform………
          • Jack 12.1.2.1.1

            12 July 2023 at 12:54 pm

            So nothing new then.
      • Cricklewood 12.1.3

        12 July 2023 at 12:55 pm

        I don't think it is overly clever he's basically left no room to remain pm and negotiate in good faith with the Green and Te Pati Maori.

        I really believe there is an appetite for tax reform and a big part of that should be a proper cgt. Personally I'd like to see a low but broad cgt that covers even the family home counterbalanced by a healthy tax free threshold hopefully around the 20k mark.
    • BK 12.2

      12 July 2023 at 12:26 pm

      As expected, another "leader" not doing what is clearly the right thing to do, wouldn't it be nice if a politician actually put the greater good before trying to keep their jobs for another 3 years and they wonder why there is such a low voting turnout at election time.
      • pat 12.2.1

        12 July 2023 at 6:15 pm

        Indeed.
13. UncookedSelachimorpha 13

    12 July 2023 at 12:34 pm

    Exceptionally disappointing announcement from Hipkins re wealth tax.

    "Hipkins said with many New Zealanders struggling with the cost of living it was "simply not the time" for big changes to the tax system."

    What a stupid statement. The whole idea of the wealth tax is to make it easier for 90+% of people! Sort of like "with so much of NZ on fire, now is not the time to invest in fire engines".
    • Bearded Git 13.1

      12 July 2023 at 1:01 pm

      Agree 100% uncooked
    • Dennis Frank 13.2

      12 July 2023 at 1:18 pm

      With all due respect, perhaps you don't understand patronage?? Or don't recognise it when you see it motivating a politician is a better way of putting that point.

      The whole point of being a Labour politician is to patronise the poor. It's a trickle-down thing. You give them just enough to stop them starving. Labour do it because they know the poor are incapable of organising as a political force.

      So their modus operandi is to copy the National strategy with just enough cosmetic fluffery on top to fool a slice of voters into believing they're a better option than National. Overall they are – but on economic policy the only real difference is the ratchet effect you get whenever the binary switch kicks in via election result and one lot is turfed out in favour of the other…
14. Patricia Bremner 14

    12 July 2023 at 12:54 pm

    Personally I am gutted. Tax should be up for debate. He appears to have sidelined Treasurer Robertson, in a big way, and his choice for DP Minister Sepoloni is not near as clear on the Policy positions.

    Ok Chris Hipkins… what are you going to put up for us to consider, if anything?

    The Greens have a manifesto ,Act has a list of what they will remove and change Nats are getting there, along with a list of what Nats will remove.

    Don't tell us what you won't consider PM… tell us what you will do!!

    Why should we vote for you and your Party?

    Truly I am closer to voting Green and swapping my ongoing donation, than I have ever been. Some times it needs a circuit breaker. imo
    I intend to answer Hayden Munroe’s email with what I think of Chris Hipkin’s disconnect today.
    • SPC 14.1

      12 July 2023 at 1:39 pm

      GR provided the rationale for it not being the right time earlier in the year.
      • Patricia Bremner 14.1.1

        12 July 2023 at 2:37 pm

        GR did not remove it from discussion or the future though. That is a big difference. CH has taken that chip off the board.
        • SPC 14.1.1.1

          12 July 2023 at 2:58 pm

          My preference would have been for them to say they could work with the Greens on their income and tax package – most people are better off.

          They have chosen to play the incumbent card – pose the change to NACT as the threat. For that to work they will need to contest better on health, housing and water reforms and question the future societal well-being under NACT policies (American style authoritarian society, class war and the kiwi or iwi on steroids).

          That does at least prevent anyone claiming any defeat was because of the more progressive tax polices – thus allow Labour to develop a campaign on this in 2026.
        • SPC 14.1.1.2

          12 July 2023 at 6:08 pm

          The latest reports indicate that GR wanted the option of an arrangement with the Greens after the election.
15. Cricklewood 15

    12 July 2023 at 1:11 pm

    It funny when you think about it, it's perfectly normal and accepted to pay 2-3% of the purchase price to a real estate agent but its some sort of huge problem to pay a much smaller figure as a cgt to govt.

    It might actually be better to levy say .5 or 1% on the sale price.
    • Jack 15.1

      12 July 2023 at 1:19 pm

      Big difference. An agents fee is one off, a wealth tax is not.
      • Cricklewood 15.1.1

        12 July 2023 at 1:29 pm

        I'm not talking about a wealth tax. More of a one off duty or tax when a property is sold. Much easier to administer than a cgt since you wouldn't need a valuation day.
        • Shanreagh 15.1.1.1

          12 July 2023 at 2:24 pm

          I agree with a tax on real estate sales. My point is that in NZ we buy houses and we die and it is logical for taxes to come in at these points.

          Transaction tax on financial intruments (houses and shares) and death duties. I don't agree that balances in KS accounts should be taxed.

          But these are second tier adjustments after looking at PAYE tax brackets.
          • Cricklewood 15.1.1.1.1

            12 July 2023 at 2:53 pm

            We actually buy houses and then sell them backwards and forwards amongst ourselves at ever increasing prices leveraged off debt. It's a destructive cycle.
      • SPC 15.1.2

        12 July 2023 at 3:01 pm

        It's an impost on labour mobility – and it also reduces equity in a new home.
        • Shanreagh 15.1.2.1

          12 July 2023 at 3:16 pm

          Not so. The rates would be traditionally low say 5-10% if that and it could be graduated and taking account of buying again.

          On death, all the balls are in the air as far as assets go and only a modest tax rate would be needed. The death dutie could come out before the beneficiaries were paid out and so it should not figure in thier new asset calculations. It could have a provison for joint family homes so that the death duties would come in when the survivor of the partnership dies.
16. Alan 16

    12 July 2023 at 1:34 pm

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/07/jenna-lynch-chris-hipkins-cowardly-robin-hood-tax-backdown-what-does-labour-stand-for.html

    ouch
    • Dennis Frank 16.1

      12 July 2023 at 2:05 pm

      The Government was secretly working on a major tax switch that would have seen most Kiwis get a $20 per week tax cut – paid for by a wealth tax.

      And the PM confirmed they were! Give him full marks for honesty, huh? She thinks he's playing chicken. So what? Captain's call.

      The bit that I like is that she cites the poll that showed 53% in favour, so he's aiming for the 47% instead. He's an authentic Labour leader!!!
    • scotty 16.2

      12 July 2023 at 4:01 pm

      Just like that – Its almost like she had her jaundiced response ready to go .

      Should not Jenna Lynch be prefacing her derogatory opinion with a declaration of her conflict of interest .
17. Dennis Frank 17

    12 July 2023 at 2:35 pm

    Well-known geopolitical analyst Gordy Campbell dissects the Labour/NATO dance: http://werewolf.co.nz/2023/07/gordon-campbell-on-dancing-with-nato-on-defence/

    Interoperability must be considered and implemented on three levels: the mental one, the structural one, and the materiel one.

    https://www.bundeswehr.de/en/interoperability-acting-together-for-a-secure-future-5644024

    Spot the triad the Germans are using: interoperability = mental/structural/materiel. PM's dancing on the head of an economic/geopolitical pin, which Gordy describes:

    Uh oh. Currently New Zealand devotes 1.37% of GDP annually on defence and security. Since our GDP is currently sitting at about $398 billion, this equals circa $5.17 billion. Raising the figure to 2% would cost $7.96 billion.

    Does that promised “laser like focus” on bread and butter issues at home in any way equate to spending nearly $3 billion extra each year, on defending ourselves against the nebulous threat that is allegedly being posed by our main trading partner? So far, only the ACT Party (and a whole swag of arms-makers and arms dealers) thinks that this would be a good idea.

    Not coincidentally though, Defence Minister Andrew Little has just brought forward to the end of this month the release of the next Defence Strategic Review of this country’s needs, threat perceptions, and military alliance options. It is not as if Labour has been skimping on Defence. As it did with the public health system, Labour inherited armed forces that had been severely run down by National.

    So to differentiate itself during the election campaign, Labour must join the PM's dance and incorporate gymnastics as well. Watch for the back-flip!
18. Dennis Frank 18

    12 July 2023 at 5:19 pm

    Another poll today:

    The Taxpayers’ Union – Curia Poll, released on Wednesday, had Labour on 31.1%, after it fell 1.8 percentage points. National also dropped in Wednesday’s poll, down 2.4 percentage points to 33.3%.

    ACT was at 13.2%, the Green Party was at 8.9%, Te Pāti Māori rose 1.5 percentage points to 5% and NZ First rose 1.7 percentage points to 3.3%.

    It was taken between July 2 and 10 2023, with 1000 eligible voters, while the maximum sampling error for a result of 50% is +/- 3.1% at the 95% confidence level. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132534001/labour-hit-with-second-bad-poll-result-in-as-many-days

    The report makes the point that this would create a 60/60 hung parliament…
    • newsense 18.1

      12 July 2023 at 6:40 pm

      Interestingly enough the Herald lead with ‘Both main parties down’ as in it didn’t corroborate the other poll, before changing it to another headline ‘another bad poll for Labour’.
19. tWiggle 19

    12 July 2023 at 8:31 pm

    lprent, the quote below, from a philiosophical examination of Stock says it all:

    "Why and how do social media and allied platforms have this potential for distorting genuine communicative action?

    First, they enable new manipulative communication practices, such as flaming and trolling. The popular support base of gender-critical academics makes ample use of these, though gender-critical scholars are also at the receiving end. Rather than using the quasi-spoken features of social media and allied platforms with a view to genuinely advancing understanding, online activists may exploit these features for strategic aims. Common techniques include drowning a post or blog with irrelevant comments; exposing the blogger to ridicule; deflecting attention from the point she made; forcing her to address spurious objections; pretextually professing a failure to understand, demanding endless further explanations; and so on. "

    I've experienced all of the above tactics here at TS around GC 'debates', and I empathise with you.
20. BR 20

    12 July 2023 at 9:29 pm

    "It was not Shaw and the Greens who did not listen. Your comments smack of "do something now" when the causes of now were foretold 30 years ago."

    Every climate disaster prediction put out by the alarmists in the last 50 years has failed to eventuate. The whole thing is a fraud.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

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