Open mike 13/09/2020

138 comments on “Open mike 13/09/2020 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   13 September 2020 at 6:36 am

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300105567/greens-want-to-clean-up-agriculture-with-300m-fund-for-farms–but-theres-a-catch

   What does regenerative farming actually entail?

   Can we ban pke without messing up trade deals .?

   Is banning sow crates fair to kiwi farmers if imported pork comes from sow crate garnering. ?
   • RosieLee 1.1

     13 September 2020 at 7:00 am

     Stop importing pork or any other food we can produce ourselves – and make it compulsory for country of origin to be CLEARLY visible on all food products.
   • Robert Guyton 1.2

     13 September 2020 at 7:58 am

     What does conventional farming actually entail? The regenerative movement sees significant differences between what they do and what those who don't label themselves "regenerative", do. It would pay to ask them for the details.

     Can we consume pke without messing up tropical forests elsewhere?

     Is continuing the use of sow crates fair to kiwi pigs?
     • bwaghorn 1.2.1

       13 September 2020 at 11:08 am

       So it's just an eerie airy fluffy wuffy green policy with no actual science or targets to aim for the regenerative claptrap?
       • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 11:22 am

         Is that how the regenerative farmers describe it?
       • weka 1.2.1.2

         13 September 2020 at 11:30 am

         did you read the policy b?
         • weka 1.2.1.2.1

           13 September 2020 at 11:43 am

           I made a post, with links and everything

           https://thestandard.org.nz/what-is-this-regenerative-agriculture-thing-anyway/
     • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2

       13 September 2020 at 11:48 am

       The regenerative movement sees significant differences between what they do and what those who don't label themselves "regenerative", do.

       A good place to start looking for an official definition but I still like my short one from a while back:

       Farming practices that leave the soil in as good or better condition than before the farming began.

       And I'm still of the opinion that the amount of farmland a nation has should only be enough to feed its people and leaving the rest to the wild.
   • Stuart Munro 1.3

     13 September 2020 at 8:19 am

     The fertiliser thing is the bastard offspring of failing to set limits for nitrates in streams and ground water. You set nitrate levels at 5ppm if you want to contain cancer deaths and allow freshwater species to flourish.

     Then, according to nitrate levels, you set local policies for nitrate use. South Canterbury has a long way to go before nitrate use would be sensible, for instance.

     But if a farmer or horticulturist, in an area where the groundwater is in good shape, wants to use a bit of nitrate fertiliser, there is no reason why they shouldn't.
     • Robert Guyton 1.3.1

       13 September 2020 at 9:49 am

       But…but…but…Overseer!
       • Stuart Munro 1.3.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 10:13 am

         Yes, you'd need a regular testing public authority. But surely the lesson from Havelock North is that water must be regularly monitored. With clear limits in place, and a regular testing regime, councils will encounter much less opposition enforcing district regulations consequent upon water quality.

         But perhaps the government is waiting for a few nitrate linked infant deaths to force their hand.
         • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 11:26 am

           "You can't manage if you don't measure"

           That's nonsense, imo and believing that plays into the hands of those who know how to obfuscate endlessly to slow-down or prevent change that doesn't suit.
           • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1.1.1.1

             13 September 2020 at 11:56 am

             No, it's not nonsense. Believing that we don't need it is.

             Those who are obfuscating when the science is clear need to be jailed and lose everything.
             • weka …

               13 September 2020 at 12:24 pm

               it's not that measuring isn't needed, it's that land can in fact be managed without it. The reason why measuring is so important at this time is because so many people just don't know how to manage land regeneratively.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 13 September 2020 at 2:56 pm

                 it's that land can in fact be managed without it.

                 No it can't because basing actions upon reckons only wrecks things.
                 • weka …

                   13 September 2020 at 4:41 pm

                   They're not reckons though. Experienced gardeners know things that can't be measured. Measuring is a great tool but if civilisation collapsed tomorrow we'd still be able to grow food regeneratively.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 September 2020 at 7:22 pm

                     Experienced gardeners know things that can't be measured.

                     No they don't.

                     What they know has been measured but they haven't written it down making it difficult, if not impossible, to pass on.

                     Measuring is a great tool but if civilisation collapsed tomorrow we'd still be able to grow food regeneratively.

                     • It's not going to collapse tomorrow and
                     • no we couldn't as there simply isn't the knowledge base needed to roll it out across the country

                     Time and time again I've heard stories of people saying how they got advice from someone and, after following there advice, it didn't work. This happens so much, in fact, that researchers looked into it.

                     The research showed that the people passing on their advice were missing a vital piece of information, something that they were doing that was so ingrained in them that they didn't even realise that they were doing it nor, more importantly, that it was a necessary part of what they were doing.

                     This is why we measure, to find out what actually works and how so that the information can be reliably passed on.

                     And I've linked before to the fallibility of human memory.
             • greywarshark …

               13 September 2020 at 12:32 pm

               DTB Times are going to be tough in the future without reacting angrily and jailing the recalcitrants. Perhaps put them in stocks where we can all see them and people can come along and heckle them. The Chinese called it re-education. Somehow the responsibles have to check the irresponsibles, there is just so much fluff floating around obscuring the important issues and the methods of improvement.
             • Robert Guyton …

               13 September 2020 at 12:37 pm

               "Nonsense" was a bit harsh. It's a ploy used by people who immediately recognise that the requirement to measure before acting can be gamed; challenge the measuring methods, the measuring devices, the measures themselves, muddy the waters with other measurements made by industry, cite the changing standards, the results from overseas measurements, the ideologies and methodologies and you can delay action for ever and ever. Amen.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 13 September 2020 at 3:00 pm

                 It's a ploy used by people who immediately recognise that the requirement to measure before acting can be gamed;

                 For some which is why I mentioned science.

                 challenge the measuring methods, the measuring devices, the measures themselves, muddy the waters with other measurements made by industry

                 Except for the fact that they don't if there's been adequate measuring standards put in place first – hence science.

                 All the arguments against false measures by the climate change deniers were proven to be false and that was done fairly quickly as well.
                 • Incognito …

                   13 September 2020 at 3:15 pm

                   Indeed, who would argue with Science being a way to the understanding the World? If only we didn’t have to rely on those pesky humans with their fallible brains and fragile little egos.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 September 2020 at 6:50 pm

                     Got anything better?

                     Perhaps we should just go on Hoskins reckons?
                   • Incognito []

                     13 September 2020 at 11:55 pm

                     Maybe you’re too rational to have a useful conversation with about Science? Maybe you don’t recognise sarcasm when the tag isn’t there for your convenience? Science is a human endeavour, by humans, for humans. There’s no ‘special magic’ despite the aura that some claim to see there – we have moved on from Alchemy but not that much. For many scientists, it is just another fucking job.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 September 2020 at 12:44 pm

                     Science is still the best that we have at finding answers despite the shortcomings of humans.

                     And the peer-review system is fairly good at catching those as well.
             • JohnSelway …

               13 September 2020 at 5:15 pm

               You're really gun-ho for jailing people
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 13 September 2020 at 6:50 pm

                 Could always shoot them I suppose.

                 I do think that our punishment of white-collar crime is far below what it needs to be. A murderer only kills people, white-collar crime destroys civilisation.
                 • JohnSelway …

                   13 September 2020 at 8:06 pm

                   While your “destroys civilisation” is a little…Errr… overstating things I do agree white collar fraud is something that should be prosecuted a little harder.

                   But not all of it. Some amounts to simple theft, others – like Enron, is out and out fraud
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 September 2020 at 9:25 pm

                     While your “destroys civilisation” is a little…Errr… overstating things

                     Nope

                     Its pretty much a slippery slope (which I hate) but the longer we leave it in place the more damage that it does and it escalates. We fail to prosecute the small corruption (such as cash jobs where taxes are avoided) and so those who commit those small corruptions commit bigger (Its just the same as the other action, right?). And eventually the people committing this fraud is too big to adequately prosecute.

                     Say, like the banks.

                     Or farmers.
           • Stuart Munro 1.3.1.1.1.2

             13 September 2020 at 2:00 pm

             Whether it is nonsense or not really depends upon what level of management you're referring to. You can and I'm sure do manage your forest garden in a way that is not damaging to the environment, without recourse to testing.

             Councils and central governments however, need some kinds of objective measures of the degree to which agricultural interests are complying with their responsibilities. This is in no small part because not all operators will act in good faith to contain their nitrate and or silt or organic particulate leaching. Those who act in bad faith and fail to contain pollutants need to be charged, and objective evidence will greatly assist the councils if they contest council findings.

             If the levels are centrally set as a health policy as they should have been, at the level advised by the WHO for example, then councils can be required to set policy to try to achieve target levels. In areas with significant nitrification that might include a ban on nitrate fertilisers and or requirements to bioremediate or destock.

             For farmers to be contesting the levels, as seems to have been the practice during David Parker's roadshow is an impropriety. The safe and appropriate level for nitrates is a matter of fact, not a ball for opinion or financial interest to kick around.
             • Robert Guyton …

               13 September 2020 at 2:06 pm

               "The safe and appropriate level for nitrates is a matter of fact"

               Ah, yes indeed, but the John Key's of this world can wheel out several at-variance facts to support the case for BAU.
               • Stuart Munro …

                 13 September 2020 at 2:21 pm

                 And if those alternative facts survived peer review we should be delighted to entertain them. Tragically, they have not.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   13 September 2020 at 9:26 pm

                   The do their own peer reviews and it's all good!
                   • Stuart Munro …

                     13 September 2020 at 9:41 pm

                     That at least accounts for their legendary economic acumen – their virtues being so advanced in that field that neither universities nor the Nobel committee can even perceive them.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.4

     13 September 2020 at 11:44 am

     Is banning sow crates fair to kiwi farmers if imported pork comes from sow crate garnering. ?

     This is a really good example of why the rules and regulations governing different economies need to be the same. If they're not the same then the one that doesn't have as strict a rules as the other is going to undercut the other. The difference in pricing results in a misallocation of resources away from the more expensive regulations.

     The answer is not to dump the regulations (as National/ACT want) but to dump trading with nations that don't have equivalent regulations and enforcement.

     Again, we're faced with the fact that free-trade won't bring about equitable or economic results. There only thing that will is well regulated trade.

     What does regenerative farming actually entail?

     Hopefully, they'll get round to making an official definition that both makes sense but isn't too restrictive on process. All other legislation has such definitions.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   13 September 2020 at 8:50 am

   Covid-deniers on their freedom march up Queen St, rage against Big Sister! Drew "a few thousand people": https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12364413

   Check out the photo of the MAGA poster. MAKE AOTEAROA GREAT AGAIN! Nicely dressed with two iconic images – cool design which ought to get traction.

   "We are a logical people," said Te Kahika. "I pounded this government on my Facebook page".

   Who knew?? Govt groggy, struggling to get back off the ropes. "Bugger! That logic sure did come with a wallop." (groan, whimper)

   Still, he's teaching Judith how to be an effective opposition leader, eh? Since when has she ever got a few thousand out on a protest march?? Lame as…
   • greywarshark 2.1

     13 September 2020 at 11:45 am

     Be careful about what you wish for DF or what you goad someone into.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   13 September 2020 at 9:07 am

   Andrea Vance is with the quarter of the electorate that sees no reason to vote. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122736201/election-2020-when-these-are-the-options-this-is-why-i-dont-vote

   When Parliament returns, these careerists will return to business as usual. Politics is the only business that doesn’t suffer in a recession. It’s a system built for failure: failure to deliver results in the public interest and failure to foster policy innovation. Worse still, doesn’t demand accountability for failure to fix these problems. The current Labour Government is the starkest example of this stagnation.

   I've been there, done that, and sympathise. Don't vote, it only encourages them! That's been a popular notion for yonks. The worst thing about democracy is the delusional effect on younger generations, who get suckered en masse.

   Then there's the other side of the coin. Being proactive is good. Progress comes via convergence on common ground. Consensus politics can be made to work well, if you apply skill to the process. The power of positive thinking.

   Having spent most of my life exploring that side, while recalling the alienation phase of my younger self, I reckon muddle through the middle is better than defeatism.
   • mac1 3.1

     13 September 2020 at 10:35 am

     My answer to "don't vote it only encourages them" is to point out that the people who do vote get the political advantage that they know comes from voting- the power, the policies, the control.

     Who benefits from saying 'don't vote, it only encourages them?" What is in it for them? Will I be one of the beneficiaries of allowing others to decide, by voting, who is in charge?
     • greywarshark 3.1.1

       13 September 2020 at 12:00 pm

       And voting is like renewing your registration on your car, sort of.

       It says this is my country, and I support it when I vote, I register my ideas as a citizen to be counted along with my fellows. And I will vote along with fellow citizens who I consider are choosing good ways to direct the country. These are the ones trying to guide behaviour and reasonable controls over the country so that we advance together and solve problems and make future plans, in responsible ways for our and the country's mutual good.

       That's why I vote, that's what is in my mind, and if any journalist or campaigner, or any of the entitled or sourly cynical are prepared to deny what advantages they have received from the country, and deny that it is a country and system of any worth, then they are feckless, mindless, untrustworthy, and should be watched with suspicion.
   • JanM 3.2

     13 September 2020 at 11:26 am

     I think she forfeits any right to be paid to comment on politics publicly if she can't bring herself to behave like a responsible adult, and worse, encourages others to behave likewise
   • Draco T Bastard 3.3

     13 September 2020 at 11:59 am

     Democracy would be fine – if we actually had a democracy rather than an elected dictatorship that can, and usually does, ignore the will of the people.
     • Janet 3.3.1

       13 September 2020 at 12:44 pm

       That is what I have felt time and time again in recent years. Too often the will of the people has been deliberately ignored. I would like to see the Swiss system where there are regular referendum – three or four times a year – usually putting up 3 or 4 questions for the public to vote on. The results are binding and must be implemented within 2 years. I would like to have had the opportunity to vote on such things as 1/ course fees and student loans 2/allowing large numbers of overseas students into our schools and universities ( It was supposed to have improved our education system Haha ) 3/ The escalation of immigration 4/ scrapping of the superannuation fund and more….
       • Incognito 3.3.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 12:52 pm

         Perhaps somebody can explain how binding referendums are supposedly instruments or conduits of and for ‘the will of the people’. Aren’t they just a variation on the theme of ‘the majority wins’? In other words, 51% of the people get what they want and ‘the will of the losers’ is basically ignored?
         • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 1:39 pm

           Aren’t they just a variation on the theme of ‘the majority wins’?

           That would be the will of the people wouldn't it?

           In other words, 51% of the people get what they want and ‘the will of the losers’ is basically ignored?

           Or it could be that it's actually a compromise and 80% like it.

           Question: Why should the majority be ignored in favour of the minority?

           There will never be a time when there is full agreement and waiting for it prevents action.
           • Incognito 3.3.1.1.1.1

             13 September 2020 at 1:54 pm

             The lowest bar is 51% and demands for expediency and efficiency result in this low bar becoming the aim to strive for (target or threshold). Compromise is a ‘nice to have’ but a ‘need to have’ when trying to reach the bar. These are the pragmatic considerations of the system as it is and I cannot see how binding referendums make a meaningful difference. That is not ‘the will of the people’ but of a self-selecting group of people. This only gets worse when more people disengage from the process altogether. Opinion pieces by Andrea Vance and Luke Malpass today don’t help one bit.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               13 September 2020 at 2:55 pm

               That is not ‘the will of the people’ but of a self-selecting group of people.

               And thus why we need voting to be compulsory.

               And you didn't answer my question.

               Question: Why should the majority be ignored in favour of the minority?
               • Incognito …

                 13 September 2020 at 3:24 pm

                 I’ll paraphrase your Q.: Why should the 51% be ignored in favour of the 49%.

                 I think I have made it clear enough to understand that this question is the wrong one and a mirror of the Q. that I posed, but neither is framing the issue in a way that leads to a meaningful solution. Referendums per se are not the solution and you have only managed to confirm my view, so far. How is compulsory voting changing the bar of 50%?
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   13 September 2020 at 7:10 pm

                   I think I have made it clear enough to understand

                   You've made it clear that you think that the minority should rule the majority.

                   Referendums per se are not the solution

                   Why not?

                   How is compulsory voting changing the bar of 50%?

                   It ensures that everybody votes and removes the self-selecting nature of voluntary voting that you mentioned that you didn't like.

                   It also, IMO, has a chance to increase peoples engagement in politics.
                   • McFlock …

                     13 September 2020 at 7:41 pm

                     Sometimes these discussions remind me of a first-year ethics class.

                     Firstly, if you want referenda to reflect compromises that make 80% of voters happy, make the threshold for adoption 80%, not 50%.

                     Secondly, even then you have what tories love to call "the tyranny of the majority". Most of the time they're referring to hardships that most people would love to have (like a high marginal tax rate on millionaires, when the median income is ~$50k), but some issues might arise where they have a point. Compulsory euthenasia, maybe? So obviously there would have to be strict constitutional constraints upon governments and the power of a referendum.

                     Thirdly, there's the question of whether it's even a good way to run a government. Not because the voters are stupid, but because it's chaotic and slow. Small inputs can have significant pseudo-random effects. What about contradictory referenda? UBI referendum followed by a tax cut referendum? Removal of enforcement powers from one body, with another referendum introducing new regulations that need to be enforced?

                     Fourth, a lot of policy shouldn't be controlled by demagogues. Elected representatives can tweak and change things as they go, based on available information from experts. Binding referenda need to be followed, regardless of whether the available information changes or whether big bucks were spent on targeted advertising for three weeks.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     13 September 2020 at 9:50 pm

                     Thirdly, there's the question of whether it's even a good way to run a government.

                     It's not about running the administration like that but in running the country. A rather important difference.

                     Not because the voters are stupid, but because it's chaotic and slow.

                     Slow I would agree with but not chaotic if the right processes are put in place.

                     Fourth, a lot of policy shouldn't be controlled by demagogues.

                     That's pretty much what we have now.

                     Elected representatives can tweak and change things as they go, based on available information from experts.

                     They can but they don't. If they did then personal cars would have been dropped years ago.

                     Binding referenda need to be followed, regardless of whether the available information changes or whether big bucks were spent on targeted advertising for three weeks.

                     Then make it so that:

                     • If new information that comes to light changes then it can be put back to referenda to be changed
                     • Don't allow lies or misinformation in advertising.
                     • Don't allow big money to advertise one way or another for a referenda.

                     So obviously there would have to be strict constitutional constraints upon governments and the power of a referendum.

                     Yes but I happen to think that we need that anyway and that constitution needs to be written by the people.

                     Iceland’s crowd-sourced constitution: hope for disillusioned voters everywhere

                     It is the radically participatory nature of the Icelandic process that makes it interesting to anarchists like us. For anarchists, constitutionalising is not about finding one way to manage all social orders but of finding ways to ensure that people can propose radical change that does not lead to the domination of others. This demands active participation in making the rules by which we would like to be governed.

                     Constitutionalising does not stop after a certain point, but ought to continue as a fundamental part of social and political activity. The problem with the nation state, potentially with the exception of Iceland, is that it has become ossified. So what might an alternative look like?
                   • Incognito …

                     13 September 2020 at 11:38 pm

                     You've made it clear that you think that the minority should rule the majority.

                     When a super intelligent commenter thinks that’s what I think then obviously I fucked up badly in making clear what I think 🙁

                     I won’t dwell on mandatory voting because obviously my alleged dislike of voluntary voting has pre-empted any useful conversation.

                     For the record, mandatory voting is not engagement – do you have any good examples? Some seriously misguided thinking there, if you ask me.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 September 2020 at 12:41 pm

                     For the record, mandatory voting is not engagement – do you have any good examples?

                     Australia.

                     The proportion of voters they have is greater than ours and the political engagement is also greater.
                   • Incognito []

                     14 September 2020 at 9:59 pm

                     Ta

                     Looks like engagement as such was not measured directly but implied, requiring further research.
         • Stuart Munro 3.3.1.1.2

           14 September 2020 at 7:20 am

           Referenda are generally over a single issue. They are less susceptible to the kinds of capture that occurs with other parts of the political system. Looking back over the many tragic instances of misgovernance in NZ, it's surprising, for a supposedly democratic state, how few of them enjoyed popular support or even assent. Referenda exist to stiffen the spines of those pasta-like MPs and parties who typically flop whichever way entrenched financial interests prefer.
     • red 3.3.2

       13 September 2020 at 1:05 pm

       Or the will of draco is probably more appropriate
       • Incognito 3.3.2.1

         13 September 2020 at 1:07 pm

         You can make your point without making it personal, yes?
         • Draco T Bastard 3.3.2.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 1:35 pm

           No, he can't, because he doesn't have a point.
       • Draco T Bastard 3.3.2.2

         13 September 2020 at 1:34 pm

         Ah, I see you like the dictatorship.
4. Gabby 4

   13 September 2020 at 9:09 am

   Vancy doesn't see any reason for Labour voters to vote.
   • Sabine 4.1

     13 September 2020 at 1:13 pm

     Poor people have no reason to vote for labour if the point is that national is worse on beneficiaries.

     They are both bad, they are both full of contempt. And hiding the shit sandwich served to the poor, the soon to be poor and unemployed in a wrapping of kindness and gentlenessness still leaves it a shit sandwich.

     Heck, i vote and i don't see any reason why.
     • Robert Guyton 4.1.1

       13 September 2020 at 5:40 pm

       Coz passionate people fought for your right to do so?
       • Sabine 4.1.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 8:19 pm

         mate, are you mansplaining the right of a women to vote to a women?

         Just asking sweety, cause it was not your kind that just 'gave' us that right out of their good heart,.It was earned by the women who came before me, nothing to do with men and certainly nothing to do with white landowning men who think they have eaten wisdom and knowledge with a soup laddle such as yourself. . Non of that however does away with the reality of todays useless eaters that want to be elected to government cause it sure beats getting a job in private industry, and that includes the pretenders in your favorite party.
         • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 8:54 pm

           You sure strangled a lot out of, "Coz passionate people fought for your right to do so?"

           In any case, mine was not a 'splaining, it was a question.

           Can you, male, female, what-ever-you-are, offer a "reason why" vou should vote?
           • Sabine 4.1.1.1.1.1

             13 September 2020 at 9:09 pm

             no, i can't anymore.
             I can find no reason to re-elect the Greens, National, Labour or any of the other useless eaters. Not one.

             As for 'the environment', that was fucked generally speaking by white stale males a long time ago.

             And i have always identified as a female, Sabine being my given name since i first came here to this blog, no matter how much you want to pretend to be 'woke and / or uninformed'.

             Seriously, can't you do better?

             .
             • Robert Guyton …

               13 September 2020 at 9:22 pm

               I don't like to assume. Re: "the environment" being f*cked by the patriarchal hierarchy, I'm totally with you there. Can I do better? It's my life mission to do just that. I apportion a very small part of my efforts to the political "solution", though I will vote; participation is vital, in my opinion. The rest of my energy goes toward reparation, reconciliation, recognition, re-cognition, re-imagining and doing the mahi required. I met a couple today who introduced themselves as (phonetically) toe-nee and pa-ris; can you confidently assign gender to them, Sabine?
5. Gabby 5

   13 September 2020 at 9:10 am

   I wonder if the funding for that march comes under campaign expenditure.
   • Robert Guyton 5.1

     13 September 2020 at 10:04 am

     I attended an Advance Party meeting in my village yesterday; their candidate believes they'll get 15%, comfortably; "The polls didn't pick Trump's win," he declared, "and look what happened!" They talked about Trump a lot.
     • Peter 5.1.1

       13 September 2020 at 10:40 am

       Dis his carers in the white coats take him back to his haven when events concluded?
     • Incognito 5.1.2

       13 September 2020 at 11:08 am

       The Pandora Party.
     • weka 5.1.3

       13 September 2020 at 1:05 pm

       Were they a local? What was the response from attendees?
       • Robert Guyton 5.1.3.1

         13 September 2020 at 1:11 pm

         The were from outside of the village They received absolute support, no matter what they said. I've been pressing some of the attendees to respond to the article that describes Billy's "epiphany" during lockdown, where he immersed himself in Qanon -studies and "became acutely aware" of the real situation, asking them if they'd feel comfortable if their child was to reverse their ordinary positions on the world, following a weeks-long-soaking in Facebook and the work of American Hard-Right activists, but so far my suggestions have bounced off the hard walls of Blind Devotion and they're beginning to express pity for me.
         • weka 5.1.3.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 1:23 pm

           Yikes. How many people attended?
           • Robert Guyton 5.1.3.1.1.1

             13 September 2020 at 1:37 pm

             Around 30? Much the same turnout that any politician event gets here. A high percentage were/looked non-European. I asked if they thought Billy's rapid adoption through Facebook was of any concern to them, but they said no, as that's how they too "woke up".

             
             • weka …

               13 September 2020 at 4:42 pm

               well I've certainly woken up a bit more being in this conversation. An alarm went off.
               • McFlock …

                 13 September 2020 at 8:47 pm

                 It's a definite worry. I'm hoping that the number of fringe parties will split the anti-any-government vote, but it's all in the air.

                 I'm also hoping that if dolt45 loses then the Q-crap will start to fizzle for lack of establishment support.
             • Graeme …

               13 September 2020 at 4:58 pm

               Do you think the attendees will actually turn up to vote, and / or give financial support to the guy.

               I know a couple of people who are well down that rabbit hole, amongst others, and the chances of them fronting up to a polling booth and giving their name and address to get a voting paper, and then filling it out in a valid manner would be pretty close to zero.

               I can't decide if it's a serious political vehicle or a con job designed to fleece the vulnerable.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 13 September 2020 at 5:38 pm

                 I don't think anyone there was able to donate much at all. Your point about the fearfulness for being in a place and being noted for being there (polling booth, intending to vote "Billy") is interesting and the "x" factor that will, come the election, expose them all as chumps.; I wonder, though, if it's something else. I wonder if it's simply a pathological "happening" that's attracting a few moths.
                 • Graeme …

                   13 September 2020 at 9:04 pm

                   Well someone, or something is paying for btk jnr's suits.

                   But it's also about the only performance art going on at any scale right now, especially in the stoner market.
               • Dennis Frank …

                 13 September 2020 at 6:05 pm

                 Serious, Graeme, as in seriously naive & delusional. I know three, all old friends, two are university grads, all successful professionals now retired.

                 I seriously pissed off the two males back at the start last summer (before Billy & JLR jumped on) when I pointed out via emails exactly where they were going wrong in their thinking. 😎

                 I also pulled rank by reminding them I'd been checking out conspiracy theories way longer than either of them. I could've used academic elitism (hard science qualifications always outranked soft science etc) but better to have mercy. Still, testing friendships that have endured 47 & 37 years is unusual.
     • Gabby 5.1.4

       13 September 2020 at 6:37 pm

       Did you ask the candidate where in the head the horse kicked him?
       • Robert Guyton 5.1.4.1

         13 September 2020 at 8:55 pm

         No need. It was apparent. Same place as it got those listening to him. (Unkind, I know. Jut joshing’) there were no hoof-prints to be seen.
   • Anne 5.2

     13 September 2020 at 10:14 am

     The cost of bringing busloads/carloads of people from elsewhere will be listed under "unofficial expenses" that will never be seen.

     In the second to last photo in the link provided by Dennis Frank @ 2, there is a woman with a placard hanging down the front with the words in upper-casing:

     UN MASKED. UN MUZZLED, UN VACCINATED, UN AFRAID.

     Someone should have marched behind her holding up a big sign : UN HINGED.
     • mac1 5.2.1

       13 September 2020 at 10:30 am

       It's a UN conspiracy. One hoarding in my town, New Conservative I think, says "NZ not UN".

       Here's an interesting article giving 5 reasons why people buy into conspiracy theories. I have to admit that I had to look up Qanon. The article might help explain what is happening.

       https://www.cracked.com/article_28514_5-ways-dumb-conspiracies-suck-in-normal-people
       • Anne 5.2.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 10:50 am

         Probably the best way to 'cure' these dumb asses is to undermine them with humour.

         If all the wits – famous or otherwise – and cartoonists in the world were to make a mass effort to laugh them out of the limelight, then they lose their power and influence and hopefully fade into obscurity.
         • mac1 5.2.1.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 11:09 am

           That would just confirm them in their beliefs, as being mocked for their truth; refer point number three in the article.

           Anne, you realise of course that us lefties don't have a sense of humour. That's what Bob Jones reckoned, anyway.
           • Adrian 5.2.1.1.1.1

             13 September 2020 at 11:24 am

             haven't we humoured Bob for years ?
             • mac1 …

               13 September 2020 at 11:55 am

               Especially those of us who wore brown shoes and safari suits.

               I wonder what Bob says now about metros with their immaculate short hair and huge beards, men who wear sports coats with ripped jeans, and the cult of shaven heads?
               • Anne …

                 13 September 2020 at 12:00 pm

                 Don't tell me you wore brown shoes and a safari suit. 😮

                 Wonder what he thought of the hot pants era. I had two – lime green and red with matching thigh length knickerbockers edged with black lace. 😎
                 • Uncle Scrim …

                   13 September 2020 at 12:49 pm

                   Oh he won't like metros. I remember a few years ago hearing Bob Jones say he absolutely hated people who wore their sunglasses on top of their heads, and he would never employ anyone who did so. Seemed a rather extreme reaction but there you go. At the same time he said he hated having to comply with building regulations for accessibility ramps etc because most people in wheelchairs were 'faking it'.
                 • mac1 …

                   13 September 2020 at 2:49 pm

                   Brown shoes, yes. Never a safari suit. Walk shorts and long socks, yes. And corduroy trousers and shirts, jacket and shoes, with suede tie…….
                   • Anne …

                     13 September 2020 at 4:08 pm

                     Those skinny ties. I used to knit ties for my first boyfriend. Not sure he ever wore them.

                     I've remembered now, the 'knickerbockers' went under our incredibly skimpy skirts and they were actually called witches-britches.

                     Those were the days. 😉
           • Anne 5.2.1.1.1.2

             13 September 2020 at 11:56 am

             That would just confirm them in their beliefs, as being mocked for their truth;

             Yeah, but we'd have a lot of fun in the process.
             • greywarshark …

               13 September 2020 at 12:04 pm

               Anne et al
   • Sabine 5.3

     13 September 2020 at 8:20 pm

     why would it?
6. Byd0nz 6

   13 September 2020 at 10:47 am

   It seems the cops have become very lenient since we, who were arrested during peace protests against the American war against Vietnam. Why were the leaders of that anti Covid protest not arrested for breaking the law and inciting people to also break that law.
   • Grantoc 6.1

     13 September 2020 at 11:59 am

     BydOnz

     It would open up a can of worms.

     For one thing, there is an election on in NZ and the leaders would likely claim the police were interfering with their political/electioneering rights.This would likely motivate many others to join their cause and to also protest in large groups in the streets.

     For another thing, the police did not arrest members of the Mt Roskill church group for alledgedly gathering together in groups larger than the official allowable number. If so, that would likely mean that any law enforcement action against the anti Covid crowd would be dismissed by the courts on the grounds of inconsistent application of the law.

     But, on yet another hand, if the government is going to have 'rules' on these matters, it looks impotent and weak if they are not enforced.
7. Byd0nz 7

   13 September 2020 at 10:50 am

   Pointless debate on Q n A about euthanasia. It's not like it will be compulsary.
8. Dennis Frank 8

   13 September 2020 at 11:58 am

   Anyone see the Fran on Q+A? She issued a fervent leftist critique at the end that was as acute as it was forthright. Never seen her do that before. Maybe she's between contracts?? 🤔
   • greywarshark 8.1

     13 September 2020 at 12:07 pm

     Could you give me the link to that Q+A. I limit what I take in so that I don't fall out of my tree from being 'stoned' on the drug of political farce but I try to keep up. So if you can please?
     • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

       13 September 2020 at 2:15 pm

       I watched it on my flat-screen tv, which gets it via roof aerial carefully pointed at the transmission tower they built on the side of Mt Taranaki to provide line-of-sight to New Plymouth.

       I presume TVNZ can give it to you via their on-demand system, which I have never used and expect never will (due to going cold turkey on my prior habit of watching tv for entertainment in 1973). Most of the show was about the euthanasia referendum, which I avoided, but the final segment they discussed Labour's tax policy. The Fran, the Jack, & the Indian economist…
       • greywarshark 8.1.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 5:10 pm

         So I would have to stream it or something. I gave tv up when they switched to digital, couldn't be bothered having verbal lashings of Harvey Norman and my repeat programs dumped in favour of sport. Is Q&A on TV1?

         Not having it leaves room in my day for reading, listening, and not knowing anything at all about a wide mass of people who appear very vacuous anyway. It does provide a venue for NZ creatives though, and so it helps industry.
         • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 5:28 pm

           Yeah, TV1 @ 9am. I don't normally bother, but the election campaign is likely to induce them to provide something substantial so I check out the intro to see what topics they will cover. Agree that one must be highly selective…
     • jeremyB 8.1.2

       13 September 2020 at 7:10 pm

       In case you have not found it yet 🙂

       https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/episodes/s2020-e30
       • greywarshark 8.1.2.1

         13 September 2020 at 8:03 pm

         Thanks. I realise why I don't watch. I'm asked to sign up and get an account and then login. I thought it was going to be like public tv and you just watched it when you wanted not having this carry-on. It's not TV on Demand – you have to ask permission.
         • Incognito 8.1.2.1.1

           13 September 2020 at 11:00 pm

           Click on this link and no questions asked 🙂

           https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/q-a-panel-lack-of-courage-from-main-political-parties
   • Gabby 8.2

     13 September 2020 at 6:41 pm

     Are you using 'leftist' there to mean 'something Enlightened I disagree with'?
     • Dennis Frank 8.2.1

       13 September 2020 at 7:48 pm

       The idea that she might be enlightened is too strange for me to consider, so no. I agreed with her. I've noticed that happens when she is sensible. However, on this occasion, it was an opinion produced by a value judgment.
9. greywarshark 9

   13 September 2020 at 12:26 pm

   I thought that a Forbes report would be factual and well backed and find it was from a 'factoid' bunch. NZ listed as the 2nd best country for coping with Covid-19 isn't a solid fact.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018763421/a-closer-look-at-a-good-news-survey
   …But – as the Herald and Newshub had pointed out – it was not Forbes that did the survey. ..

   The complicated calculations that spawned the Covid rankings had actually been compiled by an outfit called The Deep Knowledge Group – not exactly a household name.
   The Group’s website declares that “Deep Knowledge is Transcendent Power.” It says the survey has “140 parameters” and “35,000 data points.” The 36-page methodology document is bewildering.

   But none of the news stories published here addressed evident inconsistencies in the findings.
   The report claimed to have assessed 250 countries. By most measures there are not that many nations in the world.

   Just to refresh our info: https://www.worldometers.info/geography/how-many-countries-are-there-in-the-world/ Not included in this total count of 195 countries are: Taiwan – the United Nations considers it represented by the People's Republic of China; The Cook Islands and …
   • Incognito 9.1

     13 September 2020 at 12:41 pm

     I see some similarity with Surgisphere, the shady company that provided dubious data to reputable scientific journals on clinical trials with the miracle cure hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19.
     • greywarshark 9.1.1

       13 September 2020 at 12:54 pm

       Yeah I note if there is money in it, someone will find a way. Can you monetise being a mod? You mods ought to be rich by now.
       • Incognito 9.1.1.1

         13 September 2020 at 12:58 pm

         Being a Moderator has been enriching in so many ways and the pay is just a bonus 😉
     • McFlock 9.1.2

       13 September 2020 at 1:45 pm

       One thing I have noticed in NZ (and I won't mention any names) is an unholy alliance between marketers and data analysis. They purchase access to diverse (anonymised) datasets, cherry-pick results they don't actually understand (let alone understand the ethical implications of mashing together correlations between different data sources), and shill them around various sectors that might have an interest.

       They're not specialists answering a specific research question with full knowledge of the context, they're data sinks that try to find observations to sell to clients. I am unimpressed.
       • Incognito 9.1.2.1

         13 September 2020 at 2:11 pm

         I agree. Don’t forget the role that some academics play in this. On the one hand, it is great to see input form scientists who do studies and surveys, for example, but the findings are open to debate, or should be. The drip-feeding is not always a good thing and those who control the narrative know how to package something as scientific (read: unbiased and non-partisan) when they ‘sell it’ to the public, literally, in some cases. Making data sets full public is not really a solution because the public lacks the skills and tools to digest the data and extract meaningful information from it. The pseudo-science of the Plan B group is a textbook example of how data and interpretations can mislead if not worse.
10. greywarshark 10

    13 September 2020 at 12:36 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425918/german-backpacker-upset-petition-has-fallen-on-deaf-ears

    I think this person has a case. If the people can work where needed and have a good record, and get housing etc. they are here, free of infection, no expensive border and isolation to do. Let them stay if poss. – be practical and kind. Immigration needs to stop playing with people's lives like some malign god.
    • RedBaronCV 10.1

      13 September 2020 at 2:12 pm

      IIRC there are about 16000 of them. -and they don't have to do horticultural work they can be doing other stuff.

      These work schemes and the student work visa's put our own young people coming onto the job market under huge pressure. Birth cohorts coming on to the labour market are about 50,000 to 60,000.

      Student visas were about 70000 plus around 28000 on these tried to stay on the next year. Then there are these work travel visas as well.

      So the young person trying to find work here or to finance study is competing with around 2-3 imported work visas for that job.

      And for every month those 16000 work – if some one else stays on a benefit – its costing us $16 mil.

      Plus these are industries that need a reset for labour and working conditions. Frankly we are better using the actual RSE scheme if needed.
11. joe90 11

    13 September 2020 at 12:40 pm

    Yup, there's a shed load of money to be made defrauding malcontented fools prepared to swallow all manner of preposterous claptrap.

    (Bloomberg) — A popular website for posts about the conspiracy group QAnon abruptly shut down after a fact-checking group identified the developer as a New Jersey man.

    Qmap.pub is among the largest websites promoting the QAnon conspiracy, with over 10 million visitors in July, according to web analytics firm SimilarWeb Ltd., and served as the primary archive of QAnon’s posts. The website aggregates posts by Q, the anonymous figure behind the QAnon theory, and the creator of the Qmap.pub website is known online only as “QAppAnon.”

    The fact-checking site Logically.ai identified Jason Gelinas of New Jersey on Sept. 10 as the “developer and mouthpiece” for the site. New Jersey state records connect QAppAnon to Gelinas’s home address, Bloomberg found.

    Reached outside his home, Gelinas declined to comment on the Logically report, saying only that someone had sent it to him on Twitter after it was published.

    […]

    A LinkedIn profile for Gelinas says he works as an information security analyst at Citigroup. Citigroup declined to comment.

    […]

    QAppAnon, the online name of qmap’s creator, also runs a Patreon account, which receives more than $3,000 a month in donations, according to the Patreon site. In March, QAppAnon announced on Patreon an upcoming Android app named “Armor of God,” a social network for followers of QAnon.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/qanon-website-shuts-down-n-185548744.html
12. greywarshark 12

    13 September 2020 at 12:50 pm

    Interesting stuff about us humans this morning on Radionz.

    First about childhood to adulthood and our great long study of human growth.

    11:05 New book examines how childhood shapes later life
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018763801/new-book-examines-how-childhood-shapes-later-life

    In his new book, The Origins of You: How Childhood Shapes Later Life, University of Otago professor Richie Poulton and his co-authors set out to determine to what extent our origins shape our later lives. Poulton, who is the leader of the internationally recognised Dunedin Study, joins the show to discuss how childhood experiences impact on our lives…

    Second – perhaps we need to smile at ourselves to limit our depressing thoughts.

    11:40 How forcing a smile can help improve your mood
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018763802/how-forcing-a-smile-can-help-improve-your-mood

    Moving your facial muscles in a way that mimics a smile can trick your brain into a more positive state, according to a new study by researchers from the University of South Australia. Lead researcher Fernando Marmolejo-Ramos says that even though the smiles are forced, the brain can't tell the difference. He joins the show from Adelaide.
13. joe90 13

    13 September 2020 at 1:08 pm

    RIP Toots.

    

    • Keith Morris, 1976 (first reggae concert this white boy attended)
    • gsays 13.1

      13 September 2020 at 8:35 pm

      I loved what they did with this usually downbeat Radiohead song.
14. Incognito 14

    13 September 2020 at 1:20 pm

    It’s on!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300106152/election-2020-governorgeneral-signs-writ-triggering-next-step-on-road-to-election
15. joe90 15

    13 September 2020 at 1:56 pm

    They're past just being in trouble.

    https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1304760445975302144

    https://twitter.com/Amy_Siskind/status/1304940692683329537
    • Draco T Bastard 15.1

      13 September 2020 at 3:09 pm

      Old guy in the first video paraphrased:

      The good lord looks after me. If I die, I die.

      Doesn't seem to be concerned with the tens/hundreds/thousands of others that he could take with him because of his stupidity.
      • joe90 15.1.1

        13 September 2020 at 6:49 pm

        Covidity is endemic.

        https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1304913243324977152

        https://twitter.com/reeseg_3/status/1304884155889717249
        • joe90 15.1.1.1

          13 September 2020 at 7:11 pm

          ffs

          https://twitter.com/peterbakernyt/status/1304907317968855047

          https://twitter.com/FirenzeMike/status/1304918815311106048
          • Peter 15.1.1.1.1

            13 September 2020 at 7:59 pm

            Just evidence of the intellect of Americans you reckon? There is criticism of the yokels and absolutely thick there who do dumbs things and can't see through Trump.

            These are their bright young things. America deserves to be doomed.
            • Gabby 15.1.1.1.1.1

              14 September 2020 at 12:31 am

              Just selfish to the core, born selfish, raised selfish, worship at the altar of self. Can't comprehend any criticism of it.
    • Andre 15.2

      13 September 2020 at 6:20 pm

      Now Roger Stone is going on Infowars and openly calling for Emperor PalPutin to declare martial law and calling for open sedition and rebellion from supporters if their attempts to steal the election don't work.

      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/roger-stone-martial-law-donald-trump-election_n_5f5d3e28c5b62874bc1dd6d2
      • Draco T Bastard 15.2.1

        13 September 2020 at 6:57 pm

        Both men talked of an ongoing “coup” against Trump, and Stone inexplicably claimed that he predicted “almost three decades ago that this moment would come.”

        Its easy to predict if it was your game plan all along.

        Former Nixon White House counsel John Dean blasted Stone for calling on Trump to “declare himself America’s dictator” — voicing what “many Republicans crave.”

        And many Republicans wanting a right-wing dictatorship wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
16. RedLogix 16

    13 September 2020 at 3:55 pm

    In the meantime John Campbell reports on two much larger Vitamin D correlation studies. They both conclude that it is an independent variable that has a substantial impact on the clinical progression of COVID.

    To paraphrase Campbell, the failure by the medical authorities to properly follow this up is now fast reaching the point of negligence. At the very least Vitamin D supplementation should be standard for all elderly in care and rest homes.
17. greywarshark 17

    13 September 2020 at 4:50 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018762927/saving-100-year-old-native-trees-in-canal-road-avondale

    "These trees on Canal Rd, on this small section, are some of the most diverse range of native trees that you will find in Auckland city. I would have to actually say that it is the most diverse range of native trees in the city," Wedding said.

    "And since tree protection went away in 2012, basically one in every three trees has been removed and at this site, there are some really precious, rare trees, which for arborists, we've just got to a point where enough is enough and we have to make a stand and we have to put a stop to this."

    General tree protection was scrapped in changes to the Resource Management Act in 2012, something which Wedding said had resulted in the loss of one of three trees in Auckland.

    This specific property has a range of trees, including black maire, manoao, pōhutukawa, tōtara and pūriri and a kawaka which another arborist has been occupying for the past 20 days.

    Laggard NZ, paralysed Auckland, I think it is time to buy up this property. People's property can be taken for nationally important things, these trees are that.
18. Robert Guyton 18

    13 September 2020 at 5:44 pm

    Getting crazier by the minute!

    "The long-running debate over the presence of big cats in the South Island has been reignited after two new sightings."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122751025/new-south-island-big-cat-sightings-the-latest-in-a-50year-mystery
    • Poission 18.1

      13 September 2020 at 5:57 pm

      Send in Mr Green.

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-13/kangaroo-island-species-under-threat-by-cats-after-bushfires/12651772
    • Draco T Bastard 18.2

      13 September 2020 at 7:04 pm

      Well, maybe the wild domestic cats are already evolving to hunt goat.
      • joe90 18.2.1

        13 September 2020 at 7:17 pm

        Spartacus is home.

        edit: a cat weighing the same as the long lean heading/ huntaway girl I got from the pound? nope!

        https://twitter.com/BostonDotCom/status/1304823866066456577
        • Andre 18.2.1.1

          13 September 2020 at 7:43 pm

          One of the magic moments of my trip through Africa was one morning in a campground getting breakfast sorted, and a serval walks out of the hedge and up to me looking for cuddles just like a super-friendly domestic cat. Except his shoulders and hips were knee-high on me. Then his sister wandered out, just the same. They stuck around for nearly ten minutes being super-friendly and playful, they weren't even mooching for food.

          Turns out the rangers had rescued them from a bush fire as tiny kittens and their mum never came back for them, so the rangers raised them They were trying to get them to back to the wild, but they liked the campground life. The regulars there were over them, tho. There was a good fishing lake there, but often someone would be pulling in a fish and one of the servals would jump in the water to grab it. Then they'd have to take it to the vet to get yet another hook out of its mouth.
        • Sabine 18.2.1.2

          13 September 2020 at 8:45 pm

          this is just a very pretty and cute specimen of murder paws
    • mac1 18.3

      13 September 2020 at 9:43 pm

      UFO's – Unidentified Feline Ocelot
19. Eco Maori 19

    14 September 2020 at 2:19 pm

    https://youtu.be/WpYeekQkAdc

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