Open Mike 13/08/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 13th, 2017 - 125 comments
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125 comments on “Open Mike 13/08/2017 ”

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  1. ScottGN 1
    13 August 2017 at 7:09 am

    Audrey Young in the Herald is reporting that a TVNZ poll for Q & A will show that Peter Dunne is trailing Greg O’Connor in Ohariu. One more nail in National’s coffin…
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11902970

  2. Ant 2
    13 August 2017 at 8:29 am

    MEDITATION: USEFUL TOOL OR FREAKY COP-OUT?
    Severe conversations continue in our nation as we look for solutions to depression, suicide, obesity and the spiralling number of “sick days” reported by companies.

    Whilst government solutions revolve around more counselling, more therapy, sugar tax and the like it is overlooked that by the time help is sought much damage has already been done. Has the adage “prevention is better than cure” ever been more apt?

    For those who feel stressed it may be asked “is it possible to reset, – to default if you wish – a calm centre within one’s deepest self, a place where the myriad external stimuli of contemporary living lose their impact? A quiet spot all ones own that you can ‘visit’ regularly for restoration and refreshment? A centre of integration from where you step back into the world with poise and confidence?”

    To address this issue Johns Hopkins University researchers reviewed 47 recently published clinical trials and found moderate evidence that meditation alleviates pain, anxiety and depression—the latter two to a similar degree as antidepressant drug therapy. A rudimentary web search reveals meditation has been trialled in schools in the UK and USA for decades as a tool to calm hyped kids and in some cases as a daily discipline.

    Forget the ridiculous images of blissed out meditators on the edge of cliffs, cross legged (and probably cross-eyed) on beaches, or in the woods where branches stick you in the backside and the hum of sandflies muddle your mantra. Authentic meditation is the epitome of inwardness, undertaken for 20 minutes per day silently at home, allowing the re-discovery of a quiet and steady place, – the domain of memory fragments acting as touchstones to a long-forgotten sense of simplicity and childhood.

    True our brains thrive on the stimulation provided by experience, diversity, and complexity but a little appreciated dimension of enrichment goes in the other direction, – towards abstraction, inwardness and degrees of subtlety. This aspect when reanimated brings fresh appreciation of the simplest experiences of day to day living, calming to a degree the inner dragon of material longing an outer conflict.

    And now with LOVE getting a fresh airing in schools as principals grapple with student depression and suicide we are reminded that there are some simple qualities which neglected leave us poorer regardless of external stimuli.

    Meditation may connect us with that which is deepest in ourselves and therefore with one another in trusting and supportive ways.

  4. Pataua4life 4
    13 August 2017 at 9:04 am

    Here’s a question for you all.
    When was MT going to pay the money back.?
    After all she has had 15+ years of earning well over 100k. By definition she is part of the 1%. I think that is what pisses everyone off, not the amount or the fraud but the big f you up until this point.

    • Robert Guyton 4.1
      13 August 2017 at 9:15 am

      Feeling personally affronted is the choice you Righties make, P4l. Enjoy!

      • BM 4.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 9:41 am

        Robert, do you think it’s acceptable for a struggling business owner to not pay tax so he/she can pay the family bills?

        • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.1
          13 August 2017 at 9:45 am

          Is this a personal question, BM? Are you doing it hard? Is the IRD taking more from you than it should? If so, tautoko!

          • BM 4.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2017 at 10:14 am

            No.

            Is the IRD taking more from you than it should

            How does that work, Robert? if you’re only making enough to survive you shouldn’t have to pay any tax?

            • Sabine 4.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2017 at 12:38 pm

              nah, that is only something for rich people who can afford accountants do.
              righ, like our Mr. Top guy, Gareth Morgan.
              and housing fraud is only something for sitting PM’s who collect an Accomodation benefit on a million dollar house they own, err……their wifes owns, …..err that is in a trust……

              right?
              right?

              for the record, considering that the min. rent in NZ now is something like 400$ for a dwelling of i would want the first 25.000 earned tax free. Cause that is a minimum that one needs to survive.

            • KJT 4.1.1.1.1.2
              13 August 2017 at 2:25 pm

              Progressive tax rates are for business people also.

              In my experience, IRD are much more accommodating than WINZ, if illness makes you incapable of paying your bills.

              Even in the current regime, if your business is not making money you do not pay tax. Unfortunately WINZ requires you to stop working at your business to get a benefit. Which seems to contradict Nationals stated aim of getting people into work.
              Of course the system is designed so people have to take exploitative underpaid jobs.
              Not to allow them to compete with Nationals mates, in business.

              But a UBI would make entrepreneurship, something we want to encourage, less of a risk.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                13 August 2017 at 2:30 pm

                But a UBI would make entrepreneurship, something we want to encourage, less of a risk.

                Yep and I’m pretty sure that National realise that and can see profits dropping if people could easily compete with entrenched businesses.

                Removes the risk of other things as well such as a career change that requires retraining at tertiary level.

        • ianmac 4.1.1.2
          13 August 2017 at 9:57 am

          Not acceptable BM but I know that many who avoid full tax payments. I know some who remove cash from the till so that it is undeclared income. Unacceptable.

          • BM 4.1.1.2.1
            13 August 2017 at 10:01 am

            Why isn’t it acceptable? his/her family has to eat.

            We’re not talking tax evasion because you don’t want to pay tax but because if you do you won’t have any money left to keep your family clothed and fed.

            • marty mars 4.1.1.2.1.1
              13 August 2017 at 10:20 am

              I think you have some gotcha facts to drop – please do so. Tough situation for business owner – could they sell their holiday home or a car or something to help if they have them. Not a long term solution but may help them short term while they sort out he day forward.

            • Graeme 4.1.1.2.1.2
              13 August 2017 at 10:31 am

              My accountant has a simple analogy / story to solve this moral dilemma, and explain how IRD works.. It’s called the walk down the drive test. A hypothetical, or maybe real, IRD auditor walks down your drive and does a count up of the toys parked thereon. Does this match declared income?

              But the more serious side to this is that petty (and not so petty) lying is an endemic, and accepted, part of our society. From a bennie maximising their benefit to tradies doing cashies to politicians having memory fades. It is accepted by a lot of our society and in a strange way kind of allows a sector of society to survive by avoiding conflict. The people who do it are seen to get ahead, so it becomes what you have to do to not be left behind.

              And because everyone is doing it, when an individual calls it out they are going to get rat fucked. Hard

              • weka …
                13 August 2017 at 11:07 am

                Pretty sure that tradies doing cashies is a far lesser sin than beneficiaries not being totally honest with WINZ. So in addition to what you describe there are all sorts of hierarchies of fairness.

                Easiest solution all round is to run the economy so that people have both enough to live on and opportunity for a meaningful life. Then start rolling back the government’s push to make people selfish. If after that there are still some people who want to tell porkies, I probably don’t actually care except where it’s blatant.

              • Psych nurse …
                13 August 2017 at 11:08 am

                My partner , a teacher administers NCEA for their school, there are two groups who get subsidised NCEA fees, some benificaries and members of the local Dairy farming community. One group is able to structure their incomes to the level of the other and its not the benificaries.

                • Graeme …
                  13 August 2017 at 11:40 am

                  You can look at the tit pullers another way too. A lot of them actually aren’t making any money, not even close to break even without drawings. The only ones making any money are the banks (maybe) and the equipment suppliers (they get paid early before the operation starts showing a loss)

                  This is a looming disaster for the country where a good proportion of the dairy industry goes tits up. Group think where the answer was to go bigger and more intensive. Then they can’t meet consent conditions and it all gets really hard.

                  A friend tells a story about someone he went through Telford with, 5 yeas ago he had 300 cows and was getting new vehicles and an overseas holiday for the family every year, then he went big and is still driving the old vehicles and hasn’t had a day off since. But he’s got 1000 cows. They’re keeping a really close eye on him.

                  • Pat …
                    13 August 2017 at 12:58 pm

                    and are quietly managing the price down and drip feeding the sales into the market…..as usual the banks are unlikely to end up footing the bill.

                  • KJT …
                    13 August 2017 at 3:09 pm

                    A great many are farming capital gains, not cows!

                  • weka …
                    13 August 2017 at 3:19 pm

                    why did he go big?

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 5:01 pm

                      I gather for the same same reason that most of them did, it looked like a no brainer at the time. It’s only later they realise that the consultants, suppliers and bankers (who’ve all been paid, strange that) might not have been quite right. There may have been a bit of group think going on too, and definitely a few success stories getting it all going. Now we’re seeing stories about operations down sizing and getting more profit.

                      But that’s how the business process works, we’ve taken on debt to grow our business with very mixed success.

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 5:22 pm

                      Another part to it is the way our tax system works, you’re incentivised to reinvest in your business to reduce tax liabilities, hence the new cars etc. Scale it up to the move from 300 to 1000 cows and it can get out of hand.

                      I have difficulty getting my head around how we want a more prosperous society, but incentivise people through our tax system to not make any money.

                    • weka …
                      13 August 2017 at 5:58 pm

                      Ok, I was thinking more about motivations like greed, or wanting a bigger project, or wanting the challenge etc. But if I’m understanding you right it’s more that this is just what everyone does because everyone does it. Plus the advisor thing.

                      “But that’s how the business process works, we’ve taken on debt to grow our business with very mixed success.”

                      Yeah, I’ve never really understood this. I once phoned a medium business in another city and asked about accessing their product. They told me that they liked the size they were and had no intentions of growing, so sorry, they would be selling to existing local customers first and that meant they could sell to me or where I was living. And of course that left space for other producers to start up, who would do things a bit differently and so everybody wins. I gather that’s not the norm 😉

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 7:01 pm

                      We deal with businesses that have that level of confidence and security as well, who have no intention of pursuing a growth path. The ones that are on the aggressive growth thing we tend to avoid if it’s about more, but embrace if it’s about better or higher value. And we’ve also got a couple who are so glum and insecure we wonder if we’ll ever see them again.

                      I think the motivation to do better and improve our lot is a human thing, we as a species have been like it from the day we thought about walking upright, for better or worse. It’s when it’s looked on as a zero sum game that it all gets messy, and really isn’t getting better. I suppose it’s whether you see the world from a we or me perspective.

              • KJT …
                13 August 2017 at 2:47 pm

                How many tradies are actually doing cashies?

                I know some do. Including one i had to laugh at. He complained bitterly, about his kids losing their student allowance, the year he stated his real income, for a mortgage.
                He still goes on about bludging bennies. Go figure.

                I know many, like i used to, let the customer think it is a cashy, though it all went through the books.

                Several reasons.
                You get paid cash every Friday.
                No waiting for direct credits or dud checks.
                You don’t get guarantee claims for the job.
                Customers think they are getting it cheaper.

                Unfortunately, competing on price with tax dodgers and cowboys, is hard.

            • Psycho Milt 4.1.1.2.1.3
              13 August 2017 at 11:22 am

              We’re not talking tax evasion because you don’t want to pay tax but because if you do you won’t have any money left to keep your family clothed and fed.

              Yes, and we can figure out if we’re honest with ourselves that a lot of people struggling to keep a business viable and have enough to live on find ways to evade tax. If one of them later in life becomes a politician and promotes a policy on tax reform by revealing that they had to do this themselves a couple of decades ago, would you like to see every detail of their private life turned over by oppo research teams and media gossip-mongers in an attempt to hound them from office and prevent tax reform? Or would you find that distasteful?

        • Violet 4.1.1.3
          13 August 2017 at 10:10 am

          Business owners have a choice. They willingly go into business. They have funds sufficient to go into business. And don’t try the beneficiaries have chosen a “lifestyle” line. If life on a benefit was so cushy and attractive, everyone, including the small business owner, would be trying to get a benefit.

          • BM 4.1.1.3.1
            13 August 2017 at 10:19 am

            They willingly go into business. They have funds sufficient to go into business

            Actually, you’ll find most new businesses are grossly underfunded.

            Even if they have plenty of startup capital, what if the business hasn’t been that successful and the business owner has chewed through all his/her reserves, should they just starve?

            • Violet 4.1.1.3.1.1
              13 August 2017 at 10:25 am

              Stupid question. They can apply for a benefit like everyone else if they have insufficient income to avoid starving.

              • BM …
                13 August 2017 at 10:29 am

                Maybe they don’t want to get hassled by the draconian winz.

                Once you turn up and apply for a benefit you’ve got to then start looking for a job, I don’t think running your own business counts.

                That’s the end of your business and all that money and hardwork down the drain.

                • Graeme …
                  13 August 2017 at 10:55 am

                  The transition from small business / self employed to either a benefit or corporate employment is almost impossible.

                  Winz will want you to answer unanswerable questions about income and assets, and won’t be able to understand the difference between turnover and gross and net profit (that’s three very different things). If your average bennie feels like smacking the winz agent, spare a thought for the ex small business owner.

                  Applying for a job is equally fraught. After 20 odd years of self employment you will never pass the psychometric tests to get into a major employer. You’re not a submissive “team player” any more. No matter how much you bend over.

                  • BM …
                    13 August 2017 at 11:52 am

                    Yep for many once you go down the small business path that’s it for life.

                    Like you say, it’s next to impossible to get any decent employment if you wanted or needed to, you don’t tick any of the correct boxes so never make it past the HR filter.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    13 August 2017 at 1:26 pm

                    The transition from small business / self employed to either a benefit or corporate employment is almost impossible.

                    They don’t make it easy to transition from anything to anything. That’s part of the point that Metiria was making – instead of helping they make it hard or even impossible.

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 3:22 pm

                      I think BM is starting to realise that. About the little lies we all have to tell to make ends meet.

                      I am disappointed that Metiria and the Green Party hadn’t thought this through a lot better. The ensuing rat fucking was to be expected, unfortunately that’s the world we live in now, and responses should have been there before anything was said. It’s also disappointing that three careers have been destroyed in Green politics by this. That experience, compassion and knowledge isn’t easily replaced.

                      You’re exactly right about the attitude towards personal change, it’s made hard at all levels, employers, winz, and really all of our society. I’d like to hear from some of our personal responsibility types here how this squares with their freedom of choice beliefs.

                • Foreign waka …
                  13 August 2017 at 12:46 pm

                  BM – this is the difference between choosing to be an “entrepreneur” or being a worker having to do as told. I belief it is the latter that is actually the driving force rather than sound management skills that get many into starting a business.
                  The risk is to loose investment and the consequence can be severe if the commercial homework is neglected.
                  But the risk is taken by the individual whereas the severe consequences of starving because there is no job is by design of social and trade politics.
                  If a former self employed person needs to go to WINZ would the last tax statement of accounts and a letter of your accountants assessment not clarify the financial situation?
                  I belief the difficult part is the emotional and psychological consequence as such failure is seen as loss of dignity whereas it is just a means of measuring ones skill at this point in time. 2 choices: employment or acquiring skills to get another start. Perhaps both to get the funds.

                  • Graeme …
                    13 August 2017 at 4:02 pm

                    I’m having a chuckle seeing you and draco defending how generous and compliant winz are to the ex self employed. I can assure you it’s actually the most Kafkaesque experience you can ever endure. Second only to earnings related compensation from ACC for the self employed.

                    Of my winz experience, I got referred to them by a business assistance programme at the start of GFC when we had a huge upheaval, one appointment was enough. I gave up on the business assistance programme as well.

                    As for ACC, the earnings related side is hardly worth applying for if you are self employed, and especially if you are partners in business and life. You get nothing, but still have to pay full earner premium.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      13 August 2017 at 4:55 pm

                      I’m having a chuckle seeing you and draco defending how generous and compliant winz are to the ex self employed.

                      Many of my relatives are self-employed contractors and have, occasionally, found themselves reliant upon the mercy of WINZ. They complained about how bad WINZ was as well and I’m pretty sure that I’ll find at least some of them complaining that MT lied to WINZ.

                      I gave up on the business assistance programme as well.

                      Yep, so did I last time I looked. Figured I’d be better off trying to start a business fully under the table while on the EB than actually getting that.

                      As for ACC, the earnings related side is hardly worth applying for if you are self employed, and especially if you are partners in business and life.

                      Yeah, I also know that people who’ve been in business that complained that they didn’t get the full 80% of their income – but had been boasting not too long before that they weren’t paying tax or ACC because of awesome accountant.

                      80% of zero is zero.

                    • Foreign waka …
                      13 August 2017 at 7:02 pm

                      Graeme, you are missing the point.
                      If a person chooses to go into self employment they also know that they are getting into. If you get a job, then you can get sacked after 90 days with essentially no explanation really.
                      And don’t be mistaken, I have been in partnership in a business subcontracting and retail. This was an eye opener.
                      There are real insidious people out there, sanctioned by the tax regime of this country, who use the goods and services delivered by small business and deny payment for long periods of time thus making cash flow the number one issue of concern. It is almost criminal how this works as it basically keeps contractors in bond, like modern slavery.
                      If there needs something charged, than it is the law that if subcontractors deliver the goods and services than they have a right to be paid – and only then can the tax department ask for their charge and not sooner.
                      If any of those flexing their muscle for the SM business community start were it counts.

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 7:18 pm

                      Hey, I’m trying to agree with you that dealing with these government agencies is a de-humanising process that is totally counter productive for our society. And it encourages / forces people to lie. This destroys good people.

                      There’s got to be a better way to do it.

                    • Graeme …
                      13 August 2017 at 7:38 pm

                      Foreign Waka, for most small business people it’s not at all a choice at all, in my partner’s case it’s all she knows and in mine there were no employment options at the time and then I discovered it was a one way street. I had a good career in construction, NZCE, but came out the wrong side of a couple of recessions. Then ran up against the HR dept. No going back there.

                      It’s certainly got it’s good points, but dealing with lairs who can’t / won’t pay you is a pain. And they think they are so shit hot for doing it. You soon learn to keep out of their way.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  13 August 2017 at 1:23 pm

                  Maybe they don’t want to get hassled by the draconian winz.

                  Apparently, according to you, they don’t have a choice.

                  Once you turn up and apply for a benefit you’ve got to then start looking for a job, I don’t think running your own business counts.

                  Wrong. In fact, WINZ actually has business startup assistance.

                  That’s the end of your business and all that money and hardwork down the drain.

                  Isn’t that the risk that all the capitalists insists is the reason they’re worth so much?

                • KJT …
                  13 August 2017 at 2:59 pm

                  They require you to cease all work on the business.

                  Which is counterproductive to the stated aims of getting you back into work.

                  Contrast with, say, breaking a leg while on ACC.

                • McFlock …
                  13 August 2017 at 7:14 pm

                  Well, that’s the difference between the two, isn’t it.

                  For your business owner, going to winz is the last resort in acknowledging failure, and they would prefer to commit tax fraud.

                  If you are already at the last resort, and it still doesn’t pay the most basic bills, committing benefit fraud is really the only option if you want to eat.

            • Violet 4.1.1.3.1.2
              13 August 2017 at 10:29 am

              Actually, just drop your completely flawed argument.

            • joe90 4.1.1.3.1.3
              13 August 2017 at 10:31 am

              should they just starve?

              Nah, stiff their unsecured creditors and hide behind their limited liability skirt.

              /

              • KJT …
                13 August 2017 at 2:52 pm

                That’s the wealthy business owners Joe.

                The rest of us have to sign personal guarantees, to get supplier credit.

                While the wealthy business owner we subcontracted to has it all in a family trust.

        • Craig H 4.1.1.5
          13 August 2017 at 11:47 am

          Personally, yes, and back when I worked for IRD, saw a lot of tax debt written off in those circumstances.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.6
          13 August 2017 at 1:20 pm

          No but that business owner can go down to social welfare and get the same help that others can get to help pay their bills.

    • Incognito 4.2
      13 August 2017 at 12:12 pm

      By definition she is part of the 1%.

      Personally, I doubt that Metiria Turei is part of the top 1% by PAYE or by wealth but no doubt you have a ‘definition’ that supports your claim. Would you be so kind to provide a link for my edification?

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3
      13 August 2017 at 1:19 pm

      By definition she is part of the 1%.

      I think you’ll find that she isn’t. IIRC, back in 2004, 100k put people into the top 3%. Considering inflation since and the way that the top salary packages have gone up that 100k has probably dropped down the scale some.

      I think that is what pisses everyone off

      You’re not everyone and I’m pretty sure that you’re only projecting your feelings onto everyone else thus I figure you’re talking out your arse.

  5. Pete 5
    13 August 2017 at 9:06 am

    Is this about corporate welfare?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11902858

    They can’t organise their lives as best they would have wanted so we give them money as a handout as an investment for all of our futures.

    Can individuals do the same thing?

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    13 August 2017 at 9:10 am

    “Peter Dunne is trailing Greg O’Connor in Ohariu.”
    Brings to mind one of those pull-toys: the wobbling ducks or the Dachshund.

  7. odysseus 7
    13 August 2017 at 9:53 am

    Is Michelle B off her head on Q&A?

  8. greywarshark 8
    13 August 2017 at 11:19 am

    While looking at the position of Germans in the USA pre WW2 I came across this bio of a German couple who immigrated mid 1800’s and became leaders of integrity with progressive and enlightened results that benefitted the USA greatly.

    This is an example of the good side of immigration.
    Let’s look at immigration from the point of what useful results to the social and skillsets of the country – large number of immigrants here have turned us into a wonderful, advanced country.

    But now a large number of immigrants are more likely to be chosen for their money, or their willingness to tie themselves into debt for an unscrupulous, promised education and better future, not their useful additions of insight and beneficial ideas and proven positive skills at professional level, or proven outcomes.

    Schurz and his wife arrived in the United States in 1852, eventually settling in Watertown, Wisconsin, in 1855. They were quite well off financially. Margarethe’s dowry (the money a woman brings into a marriage) alone was enough to set Schurz up in business. His fame as a daring fighter for freedom in Germany, his solid education, his gifts as a writer and speaker, and his political ambition combined to make him a well-known figure almost immediately. Although he rarely stood for election himself, his persuasiveness with German American voters made him a force to be reckoned.

    His wife, too, was active in bringing new ideas in education to the United States. In 1856 Margarethe Schurz founded what many consider the first kindergarten in the United States in Watertown. Like many German schools in the United States, the kindergarten was conducted in the German language until World War I (1914–18).

    Schurz was antislavery and became an avid supporter of Abraham Lincoln (1809–1865) in the presidential campaign of 1860. He is said to have traveled more than twenty-one thousand miles campaigning for Lincoln, speaking in both English and German. He was credited with swinging much of the German American vote.

    After the American Civil War (1861–65), in which he served as a general, Schurz settled in St. Louis, Missouri, and became a U.S. senator. In Washington, D.C., he turned to issues of corruption. Because of his criticisms of U.S. politicians, some alleged that he was not a patriotic American.

    He responded with a phrase that has become famous:”My country right or wrong: if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

    In 1876, Margarethe Schurz died, but by that time she had passed on her knowledge to others who established more kindergartens and set a standard for preschools in the nation. Schurz was made Secretary of the Interior that year. He attempted to initiate environmental controls, particularly over forestlands, and to follow a humanitarian (promoting human welfare) policy with respect to the Indians, but stronger powers within the nation overpowered his liberal idealism.

    Schurz left government office for good in 1881 and began a second successful career as a journalist, author, and lecturer. He made New York his home, where he became editor-in-chief of the Evening Post and eventually Harper’s Weekly.

    Schurz saw himself as a mediator between German and American culture. He continued to be equally fluent in German and English, writing his widely read memoirs in both languages. He traveled back and forth many times between the United States and Germany, filled with pride for both. When accused of mixed loyalties, he responded that he loved equally his “old mother” and his “new bride.”

  9. Bearded Git 9
    13 August 2017 at 11:23 am

    Audrey Young plumbs new baby depths here:

    “It has also killed off the notion of leader Winston Peters being in power sharing arrangement with Labour – as he could credibly have done if Andrew Little had delivered enough numbers for a coalition but with an embarrassingly suppressed voted.

    (His best chance now would perhaps be in such circumstance that, were a Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern of a mind to, she decided she wanted a few month’s parental leave).”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11902498

  10. greywarshark 10
    13 August 2017 at 12:07 pm

    Who supported Trump and why? There has been lots of discussion and insight on that. They seem to like his full-on approach, his apparent anti-government,
    anti-authoritarian stance, someone who stands big and criticises others who should be doing something else without much idea of what should or could be done. When there is enough rot the fine fabric of democracy starts to tear!

    I remembered the great following of Hitler from some people in the USA pre WW2.
    Seems similar – follow the loudmouth, the apparently strong man who inspires confidence. Some were right on to the Nazi message in the USA though it was felt that it was a connection of the settlers to their German heritage, but they still gave the raised arm salute, the same mass gatherings, marches etc.
    “Hitler is the friend of Germans everywhere,” noted a girl who attended Camp Hindenburg in Wisconsin. “And just as Christ wanted little children to come to him, Hitler wants German children to revere him.”

    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/11/how-american-nazis-used-summer-camps-to-indoctrinate-their-own-children/

    http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/6-things-may-known-nazis-america/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund
    https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/06/world-war-ii-before-the-war/100089/

    In 1931, the U.S. authorised flying hero and known Nazi sympathiser Charles Lindbergh to be sent as a spy to Hudson Bay to look into using sea-planes for warfare and seek out points of low resistance as potential bridgeheads
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2039453/How-America-planned-destroy-BRITAIN-1930-bombing-raids-chemical-weapons.html#ixzz4paZWJXBm
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    • KJT 10.1
      13 August 2017 at 3:07 pm

      I think a lot of the Trump vote was from those whose circumstances were so bad, that almost any change gives some hope.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 5:00 pm

        KJT
        They certainly got something out of it, a parade, hats, camaraderie. Someone should have played 76 Trombones. Are they allowed to hand out free doughnuts in the USA or is that treating? Homer would have been there, dooh!

        This is what they voted for with Trump, visualising something better and brighter!

  11. Muttonbird 11
    13 August 2017 at 12:57 pm

    More poverty bashing from the National Party. How does sending kids to the Army and fining their struggling parents for not being better ‘prison officers’ tie in with his so called ‘social investment’ policy?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/95727988/special-bootcamp-for-youth-offenders-at-waiouru-army-camp-under-national

    • ianmac 11.1
      13 August 2017 at 1:46 pm

      That sounds bad. Freedom of movement?
      14yo Children on the street can be arrested and taken to court? Crikey!
      Suppose the justification is where they as mobs creating mayhem but all those under 14 get arrested where their companions over 14 will not be and that probably includes the group leader.

      • KJT 11.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 3:15 pm

        The party of “individual responsibility” and personal freedom is sure keen on search, surveillance and restrictions on people meeting.

      • KJT 11.1.2
        13 August 2017 at 3:15 pm

        The party of “individual responsibility” and “personal freedom” is sure keen on search, surveillance and restricting people.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    13 August 2017 at 2:04 pm

    Bicycle helmet laws – not really worth the effort

    • greywarshark 12.1
      13 August 2017 at 2:34 pm

      This is all about the individualist entitled Generation X or Y saying why do I have to do this? Why aren’t there laws just for other people? There needs to be a helmet law because we want to save the brains of those who don’t really have much up there anyway.

      It is likely to be blokes who are leaders in this anti-law stir as men want to be FREE. And not have to worry about accidents, after all they can ride on the pavement now and use the safety component of that, shifting the risk of collision and injury to the pedestrian. And there is the state ACC to look after you if you survive. Put the effort into getting more safe cycling lanes. Offer Councils plans that show how to have separate lanes for pedestrians and cyclists. That’s worthy of effort.

      There needs to be a helmet law but one that isn’t so tough that people who have to travel somewhere and haven’t a helmet aren’t going to be spot fined a month’s rent or something. Just enough to nag you into putting one on your must-have list.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 4:59 pm

        It is likely to be blokes who are leaders in this anti-law stir as men want to be FREE.

        I suggest you actually watch it.

        • greywarshark 12.1.1.1
          13 August 2017 at 5:05 pm

          Sorry I haven’t got 22 minutes for whining. Can you tell m whereabouts the meat of the item is?

          • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2017 at 7:05 pm

            There’s no whining – just facts backed by research.

            The only whining so far is from you.

            • McFlock 12.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2017 at 7:41 pm

              well, so far I’ve gotten through ten minutes of correlation=causation, “a study”, “widely acknowledged”, assumptions that the legislation was generated in a vacuum rather than wide campaigning, “trivial difference” (trivial head injuries?) and so on.

              Nobody has ever said the only thing to effect cycling safety is wearing a helmet. A “trivial effect” is still an effect.

              Here’s what they never said: why do helmet requirements lower cycling rates? It can’t be because they’re afraid of looking like a dick.

              Holy fuck, it gets worse as it goes on lol. Some numpty got arrested for not paying her fines because she refused to wear a fucking helmet? 13min: Oh no, old white guy treated like criminal for breaking the law!

              Oh no, they resent wearing helmets!

              Nice propaganda. Shame it doesn’t back it up with the facts you promised. It’s a load of shit.

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    13 August 2017 at 2:26 pm

    Murdoch on doing anything for kids

    Probably needs to be embedded or something.

  14. Penny Bright 14
    13 August 2017 at 2:35 pm

    ARE SOME NZ HUMAN BEINGS TREATED WORSE THAN ANIMALS?

    http://nzh.tw/11902374

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1999/0142/latest/DLM50299.html

    11. Obligation to alleviate pain or distress of ill or injured animals

    (1)The owner of an animal that is ill or injured, and every person in charge of such an animal, must ensure that the animal receives treatment that alleviates any unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress being suffered by the animal.

    (2)This section does not—

    (a) limit section 10; or

    (b)require a person to keep an animal alive when it is in such a condition that it is suffering unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress.

    Section 11(1): amended, on 10 May 2015, by section 12 of the Animal Welfare Amendment Act (No 2) 2015 (2015 No 49).
    _____________________________

    Penny Bright

    2017 Independent candidate for Tamaki.

    Exposing the $1.6 BILLION Tamaki ‘Regeneration’ – GENTRIFICATION $CAM.

    • KJT 14.1
      13 August 2017 at 3:19 pm

      You can be prosecuted for not feeding and housing an animal properly.

      Apparently keeping 300 thousand children in poverty, is legal!

      And. Highlighting the fact, is grounds for dismissal.

      • Incognito 14.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 3:50 pm

        And. Highlighting the fact, is grounds for dismissal.

        No, it is grounds for Trial by Media with the ‘Honourable Justice’ Patrick Gower presiding.

  15. adam 15
    13 August 2017 at 4:17 pm

    Staggering.

  16. Timbeau 16
    13 August 2017 at 4:31 pm

    Must be a new Roy Morgan poll out soon. Anyone got any ideas?

  17. ianmac 17
    13 August 2017 at 4:37 pm

    Can anyone tell me the contact email address for The Standard?

    This one: thestandardnz@gmail.com gets returned to sender.

    • ianmac 17.1
      13 August 2017 at 5:58 pm

      Aha. On the contribute page the email address has a dot after .com so the message is now sent!

  18. Sabine 18
    13 August 2017 at 6:58 pm

    still relevant today

    • In Vino 18.1
      13 August 2017 at 8:34 pm

      The sadness runs deep.

      • Sabine 18.1.1
        13 August 2017 at 9:08 pm

        it does. 77 years and nothing really has changed.

        • In Vino 18.1.1.1
          13 August 2017 at 9:43 pm

          Genau. Actually, I cannot help but admire Hitler as he eyeballs down 40,000+ people at the Nuremburg rally … Yet he was a barbarian. Times are turbulent as usual, and Trump is an anathema, but here in NZ we act like none of this happened before.

  19. Pat 19
    13 August 2017 at 9:36 pm

    why oh why is David Parker not Labours finance spokesman (any more)?….

  20. greywarshark 20
    13 August 2017 at 9:58 pm

    The media have been slated for asking Jacinda about baby possibilities.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/95700222/a-baby-and-a-campaign-at-the-same-time
    But this Labour candidate was expecting her baby to come a week after the election and is disappointed that it didn’t stick to its timetable.

    Timing is supposed to be everything in politics – but the drama of the past few days has scuppered that old nostrum.
    As did the baby of Labour’s Rangitikei candidate Heather Warren.
    Her baby was scheduled for September 29, comfortably after the September 23 election day – but instead arrived a fortnight ago, at 31 weeks.

    WTF If you are having a baby that should be the first priority for the next year.
    It is an expectation that modern women will still be interested in looking after their offspring and trying to breast feed the child. That is in all the information available as being of top importance for health in the distant as well as near future.

    Talk about trying to double dip. You can’t be thinking about political matters and giving your child all the attention and care it needs while a baby and toddler, and withdrawing for long periods to keep up with your constituency and party concerns. I think many women are trying to have everything, and not being fair to their children. In this case the political life should have waited till the next election, staying on the list would have been a reasonable start.

    • Sabine 20.1
      13 August 2017 at 11:28 pm

      yes. dear.

      btw. women have birthed all of humanity since ages ago, actually since ever, and have always worked.
      they might not have been payed, they might have been handmaids, they might have been slaves, they might have been single mothers or unfortunates, they might have been widows, they might have been young or old, they might have lived in peace time or in war time, but they have always worked.

      So yeah, women can have it all.

      and just for the record, let me fix this for you

      Talk about trying to double dip. You can’t be thinking about political matters and giving your child all the attention and care it needs while a baby and toddler, and withdrawing for long periods to keep up with your constituency and party concerns. I think many man are trying to have everything, and not being fair to their children and are fully depending on their wifes to handle childcare, household care on their own, while they go about gallivanting in politics. In this case the political life should have waited till the next election, staying on the list would have been a reasonable start for any man whose wife has just given birth to a child.

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