Open mike 16/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 16th, 2019 - 77 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

77 comments on “Open mike 16/12/2019 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Jenny How to get there 1
    16 December 2019 at 7:04 am

    The second to last Cop?

    Following a global trend

    COP25 'compromise deal' kicks can down the road to COP26

    The longest United Nations climate talks on record have finally ended in Madrid with a compromise deal.

    Exhausted delegates reached agreement on the key question of increasing the global response to curbing carbon.

    All countries will need to put new climate pledges on the table by the time of the next major conference in Glasgow next year.

    Divisions over other questions – including carbon markets – were delayed until the next gathering….

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50799905

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2
    16 December 2019 at 7:10 am

    Well, I predicted/anticipated a resounding Labour victory – and couldn’t have been more wrong.

    So let me make some more predictions: [Hell, on the law of averages, I’m bound to get some right!]

    • Brexit will not be ‘done by January 2020.’ In fact, the whole mess will drag on for months, possibly years. A ‘no deal’ Brexit the most likely outcome.
    • Expect Boris’ administration to be mind-bogglingly incompetent. Also racially rife and overwhelmingly anti-worker.
    • Little meaningful will be done to combat climate change because the billionaires already have their bolt holes (unfortunately, some of them here in New Zealand.
    • Scotland will break away from the UK during this term of parliament. Either peacefully, or painfully (Catalan style).
    • Northern Ireland will unite with Eire (and some protestants will go into the union kicking and screaming – in other words, a return of the ‘troubles.’
    • The USA will push for a free-trade deal with the truncated UK and – because it will be worked in the interests of billionaires on both side of the Atlantic, the ordinary people will be screwed.
    • The jewel in the English crown, the NHS, will be progressively privatised/run down and sold off to corporates.
    • If/when another GFC happens, expect economic chaos in England. It won’t be a good time to be an ordinary worker. Remember, Britain can’t feed itself.
    • The sale of yellow vests will go through the roof!

    And as a PS – expect Trump/Conservative style political lies from the Nats during our election next year. It works – 88% of Conservative advertisements contained lies, compared to 0% of Labour ones. They will try to demonise/denigrate Jacinda/Labour/Winnie, so that emotion takes over and rational thought disappears.

  3. francesca 3
    16 December 2019 at 8:20 am

    Assange may be slowly dying in Belmarsh, but the organisation he founded, with the 100% accuracy record, is still going strong

    https://wikileaks.org/opcw-douma/#OPCW-DOUMA%20-%20Release%20Part%203

  4. Jimmy 4
    16 December 2019 at 9:06 am

    Can someone explain to me what "yellow vests" means is all about? Thanks

  5. Sanctuary 5
    16 December 2019 at 9:08 am

    Looks like John Tamihere has been caught using the Waipareira trust as his own personal piggy bank again –

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118192813/john-tamiheres-500k-auckland-mayoral-campaign-part-funded-by-social-agency

    And when asked about it by reporter Todd Niall, called the reporter a "White Supremacist"

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118209668/john-tamihere-brands-journalist-a-white-supremacist-for-mayoral-campaign-donation-story

    Tamihere is clearly stark raving bonkers and corrupt to boot.

    • Red Blooded One 5.1
      16 December 2019 at 10:15 am

      Yep, Auckland dodged a catastrophe by not voting for that National aligned Loon.

      • Roflcopter 5.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 10:36 am

        Nice attempt at revisionism there… he's Labour through and through.

        • Sanctuary 5.1.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 10:47 am

          He used to be Labour, got fired by Helen Clark and his ego couldn't cope so he went full tilt. Now his ego is and behaviour makes him suitable only to join Brian Tamaki's political party.

          • Jenny How to get there 5.1.1.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 9:18 pm

            Election night results 2020
            In an election result foreseen by nobody

            After a high profile campaign massively funded by the Right, John Tamihere standing for Hanna Tamaki's Vision NZ takes the Maori seat of Tamaki Makaurau off the invisible Labour Party candidate.

            Pundits compare John Tamihere's victory of that of Donald Trump, claiming that disaffected urban Maori sought to punish the record sized Labour Maori Caucus for their silence on Maori issues.

          • Jenny How to get there 5.1.1.1.2
            16 December 2019 at 10:57 pm

            Sanctuary

            16 December 2019 at 10:47 am

            …..Now his ego is and behaviour makes him suitable only to join Brian Tamaki's political party…..

            The resemblance to Trump is eerie.

            A history of dodgy financial dealings.

            A political outsider backed by the fundamentalist Christian right

            Caught on tape making deeply misogynist comments

            Both major political parties write him off as a crank.

            "That's just not a goer," Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern told Newshub. "I can't see how that would ever, ever work in a month of Sundays."

            National leader Simon Bridges also says he would not work with Vision NZ, describing some of the things Tamaki has said as "wacky" and "bizarre".

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/12/jacinda-ardern-simon-bridges-rule-out-working-with-hannah-tamaki-s-vision-nz.html

            And yet…

            JPs have to be given the nod by their electorate MP – in Tamaki's case National's Judith Collins. But it's the Associate Minister of Justice – Labour's Aupito William Sio – who made the final call.

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/12/jacinda-ardern-simon-bridges-rule-out-working-with-hannah-tamaki-s-vision-nz.html

            With Judith Collins waiting in the wings to take over the National Party leadership, who here doubts that Collins would cut a deal with Tamihere and Vision NZ if she needed their support for confidence and supply?

            Sio has also at several points in his career courted the fundamentalist Christian movement. Who here doubts that Sio would push for a deal with Tamihere and Vision NZ.

            Think it can't happen?

            So did everyone about a Trump presidency.

        • tc 5.1.1.2
          16 December 2019 at 11:35 am

          He's a trougher through and through, hitched himself up to national in what we could call the Jones effect.
          Perhaps NZF next for rent a rant or back to talkback radio.

          • alwyn 5.1.1.2.1
            16 December 2019 at 5:37 pm

            Is that the Jones who is a Minister in this Labour-led Government?

            The most corrupt of the lot of them as far as I can see. I wonder why Ardern puts up with it instead of sacking him? I suppose she is too busy learning all the words in the Hairy MacLary story to have time to devote to her responsibility for seeing that all the Ministers observe the rules in The Cabinet Manual..

            • Peter 5.1.1.2.1.1
              16 December 2019 at 6:14 pm

              My challenge to you is to itemise what it is that makes Jones the 'most corrupt' of the lot of them and your evidence.

              Corrupt in the normal legal sense of course, not 'corrupt' as in simply doing political things you don't agree with and in ways you don't agree with.

              And not evidence as in 'someone said he …' or 'I reckon that…'

              Just inviting you to flesh things out so you aren't accused of making cheap, trite, bullshit slurs.

              • alwyn …
                16 December 2019 at 6:28 pm

                The proposal to provide money to a group of NZF insiders from the PGF. The one where he only found himself "conflicted" on the day they had to release material about the project for an OIA request from RNZ.

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/404837/new-details-revealed-over-nz-first-linked-company-and-shane-jones-office

                Of course you may believe Mr Jones. If you do I have a bridge you will want to buy.

                • Peter …
                  16 December 2019 at 6:43 pm

                  Okay, I accept that you cannot say there is evidence of corruption in a normal legal sense. You can say what Chris Bishop suggests! (Joke)

                  If you have a bridge to offer make it it a double laned one and we'll count it as one the multiple Bridges promised to Northland in a vain effort to win a political seat.

                  And since it wasn't given before being deposed, I'm calling that corrupt behaviour.

                  • alwyn …
                    16 December 2019 at 7:22 pm

                    I wasn't aware that it was Bridges who was responsible for the promise. I thought it was Key who did it. Stuff seems to back up my memory.

                    "Key reacted to Peters challenge in the early stages of the campaign with a promise to upgrade 10 one way bridges – a bug bear in Northland where infrastructure has been a key issue in the by-election campaign."

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/67528493/northland-by-election-john-key-admits-national-pulled-back-on-promises

                    Key was the party leader of course. They can make such promises. A relatively junior member of the Government like Bridges, then, will say what they are told. Unless they are Shane Jones of course who can say anything that Winston approves off. In that regard he is like any other member of this Government. They can say whatever Winston lets them say.

                    I think you are going a bit far to call it "corruption". That would be like saying Ardern is corrupt because she promised, before the last election, that light rail from the CBD to Mt Roskill would be complete by 2022. They aren't even going to start until 2022 are they?

                    Do you say that Ardern is corrupt? That would seem to be what you are thinking.

        • Red Blooded One 5.1.1.3
          16 December 2019 at 1:44 pm

          Who was his running mate, Christine Fletcher, and Boag was his Manager. Labour through and through, you having a laff?

    • Jenny How to get there 5.2
      16 December 2019 at 8:08 pm

      Sanctuary

      16 December 2019 at 9:08 am

      Looks like John Tamihere has been caught using the Waipareira trust as his own personal piggy bank again –

      "Again"?

      Confirmation needed

      Do you (or anyone else here) have any information on John Tamihere's previous corrupt use of Waipareira funds?

  6. ScottGN 6
    16 December 2019 at 10:25 am

    The Fabian Society analysis of what is required for Labour to win the next election in the UK is sobering. A swing of 10.3% (three times what was required at this election) will be necessary in order for the party to gain the 123 seats they’ll need for a Commons majority. 63% of those seats are in the north, the Midlands and Wales while 104 of the 123 seats needed are in towns not cities. It’s likely Labour will be out of office in the UK for at least another decade.

    • Bearded Git 6.1
      16 December 2019 at 11:01 am

      Lots of Labour voters refused to vote for Labour because of its Brexit stance and because of 3 years bickering on this issue. Many of them when interviewed on the BBC said they would vote Labour next time.

      Immigration seems to have been a major issue for disillusioned Labour voters.

      • The Al1en 6.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 11:13 am

        And Corbyn, plenty of reports quote labour voters stating him as the main reason for not voting labour.

        • Bearded Git 6.1.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 5:46 pm

          When asked why they cited Corbyn as a reason not to vote Labour the replies I heard were usually "because of his position on Brexit".

          This was a Brexit election and Boris's advisers played their cards very well.

          I think I heard the same people that got ScoMo elected in Oz were behind Boris?

          • The Al1en 6.1.1.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 5:54 pm

            That plays well as a defeated narrative as an ointment to sooth a broken spirit. The reality is, it wasn't just about Brexit, it was very much about Corbyn, too.

            I do realise though, how for some here and elsewhere, especially those who fly the flag for the ultra left and slag of anything to their right, having it take a dump all over your dogma and ideology is a bit of a stinger.

          • James 6.1.1.1.2
            16 December 2019 at 8:03 pm

            I linked to a poll of labour voters who saw the light and voted blue – which indicates this is bullshit – feel free to search for it.

      • mikesh 6.1.2
        16 December 2019 at 12:34 pm

        The probability is that brexit, being 'done and dusted' by then, will not be an issue at the next election, which will therefore be more uncertain of outcome. I don't think that last Thursday's effort, because of brexit, would have provided a true reflection of the electorate's opinion regarding the future direction of the country post brexit, and it would therefore seem appropriate that another election be held as soon as brexit is finalised. However I don't see that happening.

        • ScottGN 6.1.2.1
          16 December 2019 at 1:15 pm

          The poor sods have had 3 general elections in 4 years and you want to send them back to the polls. Really?

          • alwyn 6.1.2.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 5:59 pm

            He is like many of those on the left. Every time they lose an election they claim that it has to be re-run. They do this until they win one and then that is the last election ever held.

            • mikesh 6.1.2.1.1.1
              16 December 2019 at 10:54 pm

              Would that that were true – good government is so hard to come by – but I guess a permanent Labour government is just wishful thinking.

          • mikesh 6.1.2.1.2
            16 December 2019 at 10:47 pm

            So whose fault was that? It was those idiot Tories who called three elections. Labour would have got brexit done without having to call any extra elections.

        • Bearded Git 6.1.2.2
          16 December 2019 at 5:43 pm

          In that case I see a huge market for yellow vests with tartan trimmings.

    • Stuart Munro. 6.2
      16 December 2019 at 2:48 pm

      It is said that governments lose elections rather than oppositions winning them.

      Some part of Boris's success is that he was able to lay much of recent disappointment with the Conservatives off on May.

      By the time of the next election, both his handling of Brexit and of government will be well understood.

      He may benefit from a nationalist surge as Scotland leaves his sinking ship, but it's quite likely his margin will have sensibly reduced – if Labour can unite sufficiently to silence the Blairite traitors who contributed so much to Corbyn's defeat.

  7. soddenleaf 7
    16 December 2019 at 10:31 am

    So imagine, you are a Northern Labour MP, who Corbyn has just led over the cliff into defeat. Stick it out for five years, hoping Boris fails to deliver a few tens of thousand nurses and new hospitals, and the economy doesn't come good…

    How do future mps learn from them, don't follow undecided leadership's, leaders who don't take a position on Brexit. duh.

    • aom 7.1
      16 December 2019 at 1:38 pm

      The confusing thing about Corbyn being 'undecided on Brexit' is that it makes no sense. Initially, wasn't he was in the 'leave' camp? His election campaign stance was probably a case of being forced to compromise by factions within the party and consequently, the compromise was to subscribe to a second vote process. That aside, the nationalization project Labour would have embarked on if elected could not have proceeded because the UK, as a member, is or would have been subject to EU rules. If elected, Labour would surely have had to leave anyway.

      • soddenleaf 7.1.1
        17 December 2019 at 3:15 pm

        If Brexit failed Labour would have been blamed? Tories did not want Brexit, they wanted the issue to continue so keep emotional voters nationalistic and so voting for them. This is why i chuckle, brexit is done, Boris will fail to deliver, or succeed, either undermines Tory momentum.

        So it's because Labour saw no win in engaging. Don't touch the hot potato.

        Now Boris has a large rump of new MPs all looking to keep Labour voters from the turning out and read setting their values. lol.

        The other way was too state the inevitable, that referendums happen, they happen on EU, and a future referendum will be called that fully integrates the UK into the eu, without the pound. Now for sure it's unlikely to pass. But the fear, that fact would have in heinsight, forced many to rethink brexit. What we had wasn't so bad was it.

        It all comes back to disgruntalled middlelands heartland using brexit to burn a scsr across the tory party. Boris cant go right, he'll alienate his new middleland rump. lol

  8. greywarshark 8
    16 December 2019 at 12:44 pm

    Good news from yesterday (don't we need it) about the woman swept away in the river on the SI West Coast NZ, the six year old who walked for 2 kilometres for help. The woman struggles out of the sea a way up the coast, climbs a fence and has a blanket and a hot milo given her. The son is all right too. Wonderful, something to be happy about. And an example of good neighbourliness and community from the helpers.

    Yesterday's report. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-12-2019/#comment-1673289

  10. Fireblade 10
    16 December 2019 at 2:08 pm

    Tax and fine.

    National want to introduce a Congestion Tax and fine cyclists. Yes, it's another bat shit crazy discussion doc from the National Party.

    When will National have actual policy? Endless discussion documents are just more pie in the sky bullshit.

    Come on you idiot Nats, it's less than a year until the election. Pull your head out of your ass and offer some sensible policy!

    • tc 10.1
      16 December 2019 at 2:42 pm

      That is sensible policy and more great news for cyclists living the dream on the great JK cycleway.

    • alwyn 10.2
      16 December 2019 at 5:49 pm

      I read the last two sentences in Fireblade's comment and realised they could easily be changed into something that made sense.

      When will Labour have actual policy? Endless discussion documents are just more pie in the sky bullshit.

      Come on you idiot Labs, it's been two years and three months since the election. Pull your head out of your ass and offer some sensible policy!

      When are we going to see some alternative to the disastrous Kiwibuild policy? What ever happened to the tax policy, apart from the PM making a "leaders call" about a CGT. When is the Health policy going to be seen? H2 seems to have been collecting her moolah since not long after the last election and nothing seems to have appeared.

    • David 10.3
      16 December 2019 at 8:29 pm

      Have to agree.

      Mainstream news on a Sunday night: Nats want to fine cyclists for riding on the road.

      If, that’s their latest and greatest new big policy announcement, 2020 should be a sleepwalk for the COL.

  11. esoteric pineapples 11
    16 December 2019 at 2:09 pm

    George Galloway, as per usual, gives the best explanation on what went wrong with Labour – Brexit. Along the way, demolishing all the illusions that a lot were under, such as an impending youthquake based on photos from just one or two photos of hipsters waiting in line to vote. As he says, it should have been Labour taking Britain out of the EU and then it would have been the party with the landslide.



    • McFlock 11.1
      16 December 2019 at 3:59 pm

      What went wrong with his own campaign?

      • The Al1en 11.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 4:27 pm

        Err, the (insert current buzzword) media, or the middle class elitists in his own party of one undermining him, or third way liberal centrist Marxists knowing what's best for the working man yada yada, or Brexit.

        Seems to work for Corbyn's apologists, though I suspect he's just more loathed than old Jezza.

        • McFlock 11.1.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 6:07 pm

          lol

          • greywarshark 11.1.1.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 6:40 pm

            Can someone provide a link that explains why the UK was going to be on an upward-moving escalator after leaving the EU? I think there were promises of money going into the EU being available for spending by the NHS. If that was where the boost to NHS funding was coming from, was it from a net figure of EU interaction? That is did it look at the figure being allocated to meet EU demands, with the monetary allowances from the EU, deducted?

            • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1.1
              16 December 2019 at 6:59 pm

              If you're thinking of the "380 million a week" or whatever it was they'd plastered onto the side of a bus, ISTR it was the tax outflows to Europe and they never mentioned the income from the EU govt, let alone all the excise they'll have to pay to export to the EU.

              ah, here’s another example

              aha and here’s the Guardian arguing that the “cost” is at the very least significantly inflated

              • greywarshark …
                16 December 2019 at 9:48 pm

                Thanks McFlock, interesting sign. (I then got curious about Primark the store showing up in the image. ) Primark was run by a reclusive Dublin man Ryan but had its headquarters both in Dublin, Ireland and Mayfair, London! He pioneered cheap fashion but not made in Ireland.

                The sign could say something about the thousands of jobs that each day are being performed by cheap labour in Asia, instead of proudly made in Ireland and costing a bit more. We are so manipulated to seek cheapness; cheap and nasty is the name of the game.

                This is summary of it: Primark – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Primark

                Jump to Stores – Primark is a British-owned Irish fast fashion retailer with headquarters in Dublin, Ireland, which is a subsidiary of food processing and retail company Associated British Foods.

                Number of employees‎: ‎70,000

                Products‎: ‎Clothing; cosmetics; housewares

                Revenue‎: ‎£5.949 billion (2016)

                This is what a report on Arthur Ryan says about his business acumen.

                His remoteness did not shield him from controversy, however, as the press scrutinised Primark’s seemingly impossible prices. The explanation lay in part in Ryan’s negotiating acumen, but just as much if not more in Primark’s use of poor foreign labour. The Dhaka garment factory in Bangladesh, which collapsed in 2013, killing 1,134, was among its suppliers. Meanwhile, in the UK, the amount of textile waste piled up, with Primark blamed by many for the new disposable fashion culture.,,,

                From July 1969, when he opened the group’s first store in Dublin, to his death aged 83 earlier this month, [July 2019] Ryan dedicated his life to the Irish retailer Penneys, and to its international offshoot Primark. By cutting prices to record lows while still maintaining healthy margins, the model he pioneered made fashion more accessible than ever before, and generated billions of pounds in revenue. But these successes came at a cost, relying as they did on cheap labour from southeast Asia and driving the throwaway culture that has come to permeate high street fashion…

                But while he knew what customers wanted, little was known about him. For years the chain-smoking executive gave no interviews and avoided public appearances. When he did emerge it was often to inspect stores incognito, reportedly dressed in a rumpled old raincoat.

                Discretion was no game to him, as it came from a deep-seated fear of abduction, caused in part by the IRA’s unsuccessful kidnapping attempt on Galen Weston, son of Garfield, in 1983. [The Westons had been early partners with Ryan.]

                https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/arthur-ryan-death-primark-founder-obituary-dublin-ireland-london-penneys-a9008376.html

                • greywarshark …
                  16 December 2019 at 10:00 pm

                  The Guardian story goes back to 2016. My feeling is that they could publish it once a week and only about 10,000 of the millions of voters would then read it. The rest: tl:dr.

                  Now flashcards might be the new/old thing. Bring them back, with some changing colours to represent good or bad news, some music with a good beat, that matches the spiel and you would have a crowd.

  12. Fireblade 12
    16 December 2019 at 3:47 pm

    A lazy effort by Judith Collins.

    Nine years in government and two years in opposition and all she's come up with is to scrap the RMA, because it's too hard to reform.

    Time to retire Jude.

    • tc 12.1
      16 December 2019 at 4:11 pm

      They had 9 years of reforming it so what's it to be Judy, admit you f'd it up or admit you should've abolished it ?
      ECAN got in the way and got sidestepped with little fanfare by the nats so why the wibble about the RMA Jude.

      Another policy from that ankle deep pool of theirs.

      • greywarshark 12.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 6:20 pm

        I seem to remember Ruth Richardson, asked why she didn't introduce some controlling law stopping some financial misbehaviour, saying that it would only result in evasion. (So waste of time and money trying to stop the rot at the top, better to whack the poor.) That was the gist but can't remember further details. It was surprisingly clear showing the Gnats attitudes of probity and fairness.

  15. A 15
    16 December 2019 at 6:03 pm

    National finally hit upon a policy that might win them the election – evicting State House Tenants that refuse to change anti-social behavior (of course this makes assumptions like that they have the ability to change after accessing our mental health system, but will the public care?).

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018727175/national-bids-rule-to-boot-out-anti-social-state-home-tenants

  16. greywarshark 16
    16 December 2019 at 6:14 pm

    There are so many temptations and stresses that press on people trying to manage in this society which allows some unreasonable behaviours by people of supposed integrity, and comes down heavily on others who are considered to have less integrity whose behaviour could be regarded as reasonable because of their needs and burdens of responsibility.

    This seems surprising but is it because the person is moving between the two above groups? https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/405611/donna-grant-pleads-guilty-to-wananga-tec-fraud-charge

    • Jimmy 16.1
      16 December 2019 at 7:12 pm

      Shes was in a position of trust and abused it. $1.25m ….wow….I wonder where its all gone? Very sad that it is so often the case of Maori stealing from other Maori .

      Also, its hardly likely she was on the 'bones of her arse' and desperate for money.

      • aom 16.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 10:46 pm

        What are you on Jimmy? The reports make it clear where the money went and it wasn't into her pocket – or Maori stealing from Maori. Are you training as a misinformation disseminator for National ready for next year by chance?

        • Jimmy 16.1.1.1
          17 December 2019 at 12:07 am

          I read the article / link provided by Greywarshark and it does not say where the money went? Why? Where did it go? Casino?

          • aom 16.1.1.1.1
            17 December 2019 at 9:40 am

            Try this then – https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118232852/sir-howard-morrisons-daughter-admits-125-million-fraud. Next time, try suspending judgement and don't let prejudice get in the way of objectivity.

            • Jimmy 16.1.1.1.1.1
              17 December 2019 at 10:42 am

              Thanks, that article gives a bit more info. Still doesn't say what money was used for, only that she didn't use for personal gain.

              "Serious Fraud Office director Julie Read said: "Mrs Grant abused her position of authority and the trust of her colleagues to misappropriate a significant amount of public funds. Although the defendant did not use the funds to benefit herself financially, her offending was nonetheless criminal in nature and risked the reputation of the institutions she represented.""

              Don't think we will be employing her in the finance dept. any time soon.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.