Open Mike 24/01/2017

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1. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 1

   24 January 2017 at 7:53 am

   Recently, CV posted his predictions for the 2017 election – predictions, in my opinion, well off line. Unless . . .

   So, here’s some reflections on the political year 2016 – from an observer, not a politician.

   1. The most obvious conclusion to draw from the last year is that a massive and world-wide swing away from the failed policies of neo-liberalism is happening. Corbyn’s election as Labour Party leader and the huge numbers who joined, the Brexit vote, the ‘yuge’ support for the Democratic Socialist, Bernie Sanders and the election of the anti-establishment (at least, he said so) Donald Trump.

   2. The efforts by the old elite / bankers to fight back were also marked. The continuing campaign by the MSM to discredit Jeremy and by the politicians to delay or derail Brexit, the shafting of Bernie by the DNC and the old elite/bankers etc taking most, if not all of the cabinet positions under Trump.

   3. The centrist Hillary Clinton did not appeal enough to beat the least qualified candidate the USA has probably ever put up for election. If that isn’t an indictment of ‘third way’ policies – well, I don’t know what more convincing our Labour Party needs.

   4. The NZ Labour Party is tobacco stained with the neo-liberal taint and they haven’t really been able to wash the marks away – yet. At a time when they should have been gaining traction against a bloody awful Nat. government, they have made little progress in the polls – languishing at around 30 – 35% for all of 2016.

   The obvious conclusion to draw – from this overly simplistic summary – is that the Labour Party has to TURN LEFT! Jeremy and Bernie pointed the way – the NZLP must present a viable and appealing alternative to neo-liberalism. If they do a Clinton and mouth a few words about reform while not intending to do anything to upset the 1%ers – then CV’s predictions may well come true!

   They should be promising to take this country by its collective collar and shake the hell out of it – so all the rich cockroaches fall to the ground and can be stomped on! [Figuratively, not literally!] God knows, the future looks precarious enough – some radical solutions are needed!
   • Carolyn_nth 1.1

     24 January 2017 at 8:05 am

     2017 – I would like it if the left got going in earnest this year – globally, but especially in NZ. Knock that orange atrocity off the front page of all the news platforms.
   • Adrian Thornton 1.2

     24 January 2017 at 8:14 am

     @Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster…
     +1 Turn Labour Left!
     • saveNZ 1.2.1

       24 January 2017 at 8:29 am

       The issue is everyone has a different idea of ‘left’ and ‘ centre’. Personally I think Labour has turned left already, they said no to TPPA and they have the MoU with the Greens.

       If they turn too far left then they start competing with the Greens and Mana and leave the centre open to National and NZ First….

       Totally agree that Labour have been too far right or schizophrenic in their policy and too blindly supportive of neoliberalism in the past… but do feel they have turned the corner and now people have to stop bagging them and start supporting them and bagging National.

       National are the ones doing horrendous damage to our country, environment and society.
       • Siobhan 1.2.1.1

         24 January 2017 at 8:50 am

         There are pretty well defined definitions of Left> Center < Right.
         The problem is that over the last 30 years Parties such as Labour have been selling Centrist Policies and passing them off as being Left wing. And I for one am struggling to see any sure well defined 'turning of the corner' from previous Labour policies.
         My own thoughts are that 'The Centrist' labourites should just grow up and step up. State their position clearly and form their own Political Parties.
         The perfect starting point would be the English Labour Party Centrists, whose obsession with destroying Corbyn is guaranteed to condemn the Party to oblivion for atleast the next Election cycle.
         Nash and the crew could get things started here.

         Though of course you answered this yourself, by pointing out that Labour ARE occupying the Centre position, and, like you say, its a position that can just as easily be filled by National.
         In other words…National and Labour are pretty darned close to being interchangeable.
         Is that really the Labour Party we want as we try and survive the current economic and social quagmire sweeping the World as Neo Liberalism and Free Market capitalism gives its last desperate death throes??

         ps Andrew Little and Labour have NOT said NO to TPP..they want a ‘better’ TPP. Do we know what that actually means??
         • Jenny Kirk 1.2.1.1.1

           24 January 2017 at 9:01 am

           Labour HAS said No to TPP.
           But we’re a trading nation so Labour would like to see some fair and reasonable trade agreements, not these trumped up multi-corp arrangements.
           • Siobhan 1.2.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2017 at 10:13 am

             “After being reluctant to make his party’s position clear, Mr Little has finally said Labour does not support the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) in its current form.”
             http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/295195/little-attempts-to-keep-lid-on-tpp-tensions

             He says the same on the Labour Party website. That was my point.
             Andrew Little is very vocal in supporting Free Trade, and, from reading his statement, is very proud of the deal Labour struck with the free trade deal with China. Which, while being great for the so called ‘economy’ is part and parcel with the destruction of our wages, employment rights, and some claim, housing situation. How many of us have gone from relatively secure employment to being ‘private contractors’, short term employees etc etc as our industries try to compete in a free for all with the Global Economy.
         • BM 1.2.1.1.2

           24 January 2017 at 9:01 am

           I think this is a great idea, that centrist split from Labour would probably get around 10% of the party vote and be a natural coalition partner for National.

           I don’t see any downside in this, great for Labour, they can become the party of leftist purity it’s members so desperately seem to want and great for National, they can keep on running the country without having to deal with NZ First.

           Win win for everyone.
           • Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 1.2.1.1.2.1

             24 January 2017 at 9:20 am

             BM – you are truly ‘BC.’
       • Tamati Tautuhi 1.2.1.2

         24 January 2017 at 8:55 am

         NZF have some good MP’s and are making good progress throughout the country I believe they will pick up a percentage of the disillusioned National Party vote.

         Likewise I believe a coalition between Labour Greens NZF is the most likely post Election arrangement, Winston has been in coalition with Labour and National.

         The arrangement with National ended in a mess when Shipley overthrew Bolger and then proceeded to shaft Winston, hence I doubt whether Winston will trust National again, once bitten twice shy.
         • saveNZ 1.2.1.2.1

           24 January 2017 at 9:18 am

           +1 To a Labour/Green/NZ First coalition.
       • Jenny Kirk 1.2.1.3

         24 January 2017 at 8:59 am

         + 100% saveNZ – time people stopped the bagging of Labour, read up on the policies, and Policy Platform, and started to help Labour get the word out –
         Labour is returning to its roots.
         • Adrian Thornton 1.2.1.3.1

           24 January 2017 at 12:18 pm

           @Jenny Kirk, I don’t agree that Labour is returning to it’s roots, or if it is, that memo must have passed me by.

           Here is a quote from their own site, in regards to the housing disaster…

           “Instead of fixing the problem, National is siding with property speculators. They are too focused on looking after those at the top rather than families in the middle.”

           Not a mumbling word about poor and working families, they then go on to state that they will build ‘affordable’ houses in the $500,000-600,000 range
           (in AKL), do you believe that families where the income is from full time cleaning, aged care work etc can afford a $500,000 home, no either do I…so again, I have to say Labour doesn’t look or sound like a party that is finding it’s Socialist roots to me.

           Turn Labour Left.
           • saveNZ 1.2.1.3.1.1

             24 January 2017 at 2:37 pm

             @ Adrian Thornton
             The housing situation in NZ is made up roughly of 1/3 renters, 1/3 homeowners with mortgages and 1/3 homeowners without mortgages.

             So the centre of housing issues might not be where you think it is!

             Although I do agree that Labour are too Nat Lite on housing and it is a joke to consider $500 -$600 k affordable on NZ wages. They will go bankrupt as soon as mortgages rise.

             Many of the renters should be in secure state housing in my view and National should not be selling them off! That is where Labour are missing the boat.

             The Auckland housing situation is driven by 166,000 working visas being issued to students and 70,000 new migrants per year coming. but nobody wants to mention it.

             The government has so little imagination they think that selling land and dodgy degrees is a sustainable business for NZ and apparently we can’t stop now as who will fill the apartments being built.

             I’m all for immigration but not at the levels and types of people that are coming all for the wrong reasons. I’d like to see more creative type of immigrants, professionals with new ideas and an exchange of minds and cultures, not more tilers, restaurant managers and fruit pickers. Nothing wrong with that but how about training some of our youth to do that as much of it can be taught in a quick course.

             If you don’t think having one of the biggest self imposed immigration levels in the world per capita has an effect on property, services and the environment (especially with our current government polluters at the helm with wadable water and sell off state houses and get social bonds going) – you are in la la land.
         • Chris 1.2.1.3.2

           24 January 2017 at 3:58 pm

           Did I hear you say Labour’s going to restore basic benefit rates to a livable level, reinstate the special benefit, get rid of punitive welfare policies including the ones Labour introduced and/or voted with the nats on, ditch user pays in health and education, bring back a state housing system that abolishes homelessness with an emphasis on homeownership for everyone? Wow. That’s fantastic.
     • Red 1.2.2

       24 January 2017 at 9:39 am

       Bill English also agrees labour should go hard left
       • Adrian Thornton 1.2.2.1

         24 January 2017 at 12:20 pm

         Who gives a fuck what Bill Engish thinks Labour should do?
       • Chris 1.2.2.2

         24 January 2017 at 4:00 pm

         Hard left to English means warm homes, full bellies and that kids go to school.
   • garibaldi 1.3

     24 January 2017 at 8:28 am

     I like what you are saying very much Tony , but I fear that “Capital” ( or Deep State or whatever) is far more powerful and has what is pretty much a stranglehold. One good example is their ownership of the media and the ability to control the message.
     All ‘uprisings’ for change just haven’t been able to get enough traction , even the huge overseas movements have basically floundered pretty rapidly because the game is so stacked.
     Sadly for NZ we do not have a champion to lead in the need for change.
     Personally I think we (humans) are frogs in a heating pot of water and are too stupid to do anything before it is too late.
     Perhaps if Trump destroys the USA we may get change for the better? Now there’s a pipe dream! More likely to get WW3 instead.
     Still no real actions over the elephant in the room (CC) either.
     • Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 1.3.1

       24 January 2017 at 9:00 am

       Garibaldi:

       The message has to be so ‘radical’ that the MSM and Deep State simply cannot ignore it – a moderate message will simply get tucked away on page 17. It’s also got to offer some hope to those at the bottom so they will be encouraged to get out and vote.

       Another pipe dream – wouldn’t it be lovely to have California secede from the union!

       And yes, I agree – climate change will, literally, change everything!
   • Paul 1.4

     24 January 2017 at 8:36 am

     +1
     Turn Labour left.
     • james 1.4.1

       24 January 2017 at 8:48 am

       + 1 Turn Labour Left.

       Funny isnt it – we all want the same things – but we expect different results from it.
   • Bill 1.5

     24 January 2017 at 9:56 am

     Labour’s been captured and won’t be seeing freedom any time soon (if ever).
     Shaw has kind of narrowed the distance between Labour and Green (bad thing).
     The media are pants (pants thing).

     I’m waiting for TOPS climate policy before punting them as a circuit breaker, but their policies so far aren’t too bad in comparison to Labour or Green policy… and I detected more than a whiff of sour grapes from the Greens in a piece linked to here the other day.

     The fact that TOPS do not want to be in government (are going to occupy the cross benches) is a big plus in my book.
2. Adrian Thornton 2

   24 January 2017 at 8:03 am

   Guyon gets taught a lesson on TPP, by Jane Kelsey this morning on RNZ…hope he was taking notes….
   http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201830460
   • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1

     24 January 2017 at 8:16 am

     ha ha ha
     Go Prof!
   • Paul 2.2

     24 January 2017 at 8:37 am

     Espiner again shows he is a bagman for the neoliberal establishment. His tone, manner and bias seep through every question he asks.
3. Paul 3

   24 January 2017 at 8:06 am

   Good news.

   Trump executive order pulls United States out of TPP trade deal
   

   US President Donald Trump has signed an executive order to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal (TPP).

   The trade pact – which was a linchpin of former President Barack Obama’s pivot to Asia – was signed by 12 nations, including New Zealand, and covered 40 percent of the world’s economy.
   The directive was part of a series of executive orders planned for Monday to begin reshaping US trade policies.
   Mr Trump had vowed to quit the TPP during his presidential campaign.
   He has criticised the trade agreement as a “potential disaster for our country”, arguing it harmed the US manufacturing sector.
   The massive trade deal was negotiated in 2015 by nations including New Zealand, the US, Japan, Malaysia, Australia, Canada and Mexico
   New Zealand’s parliament passed a bill allowing it to ratify the TPP last year, but it had not yet been ratified by all the individual countries.

   Donald Trump signs memorandum to leave Trans-Pacific Partnership

   President Donald Trump moved to pull the United States out of the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact today, fulfilling a campaign promise as he began his first full week in office.

   “Great thing for the American worker that we just did,” Trump said as he signed a notice in the Oval Office..
   • Carolyn_nth 3.1

     24 January 2017 at 8:18 am

     And my Twitter feed says:

     BREAKING: The White House just confirmed that they fully intend to move forward with the Dakota Access Pipeline in Standing Rock.

     plus

     Spicer: Trump’s saying CIA might have another chance at Iraqi oil is idea,if US does something,”make sure we’re getting something out of it”

     Government for the people? Which people?
   • Incognito 3.2

     24 January 2017 at 8:38 am

     Good news.

     I beg to differ because Trump’s move is based on all the wrong reasons. In any case, much of the legal groundwork for a (the) TPPA has already been done here in NZ and elsewhere and it appears that National/Bill English have not given up yet.

     As a side note, unpredictability and uncertainty are on the increase, which coincidentally leads to a rise of pseudo-Nostradamus wannabees, and under such conditions the Precariat is unlikely to experience any real and sustainable improvement despite some political rhetoric (…) trying to convince us otherwise.
     • Paul 3.2.1

       24 January 2017 at 8:49 am

       The dismantling of the TPP is good news.
       For these reasons.
       • Paul 3.2.1.1

         24 January 2017 at 8:50 am
4. Infused 4

   24 January 2017 at 8:20 am

   So.. I was right about the TPP. Even when it was signed here in NZ I said it wouldn’t happen.

   What a waste of time protesting.

   GG.
   • Sacha 4.1

     24 January 2017 at 8:27 am

     The TPP protests were useful at bringing people together, showing how to non-violently win, and educating the govt about what citizens would not accept. Those are all transferable to the next similar fight.
     • DoublePlusGood 4.1.1

       24 January 2017 at 8:29 am

       Also, the corresponding opposition to it in the US, and the reasons for that opposition, won Trump the election.
     • james 4.1.2

       24 January 2017 at 8:50 am

       “educating the govt about what citizens would not accept”

       That should be about what SOME citizens would not accept.

       There were a lot of us that were fine with it.

       Actually – I think its a bad thing that it did not go ahead, but “hey” its dead and we just move on.
       • Sacha 4.1.2.1

         24 January 2017 at 9:40 am

         It’s always about some citizens, yes.
       • Draco T Bastard 4.1.2.2

         24 January 2017 at 2:43 pm

         There were a lot of us that were fine with it.

         A lot, yes, but still a minority.
   • Paul 4.2

     24 January 2017 at 8:29 am

     Funny that – most people seem to think it was the protests that prompted politicians to turn against the TPP.

     http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201830460
     • Infused 4.2.1

       24 January 2017 at 9:07 am

       It was plain obvious this shit wouldn’t pass. America was getting dicked. It was signaled a few years ago that a change in US govt would kill it.
       • Paul 4.2.1.1

         24 January 2017 at 9:12 am

         Many thousands of people would disagree with your assessment.
         But hey, what do they know?

         https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/28/tpp-protests-mass-opposition-worked-trump-presidency

         https://www.rt.com/usa/331356-tpp-signing-protests-usa/

         http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/17/germans-march-against-trade-deals-with-us-and-canada-stop-ceta-ttip.html
       • Sacha 4.2.1.2

         24 January 2017 at 10:04 am

         “America was getting dicked. ”

         An interesting take on the nature of the agreement as negotiated, including all the kowtowing to US IP laws, but hey.
     • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2

       24 January 2017 at 9:18 am

       I don’t think the protestors influenced Trump at all
       • Paul 4.2.2.1

         24 January 2017 at 9:25 am

         You would think that.
         • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2.1.1

           24 January 2017 at 9:41 am

           That’s a troll comment if ever there was 🙂

           No, I think Trump was looking for ways to disparage Obama and Clinton and then it happened to coincide with others groups ideals

           If Trump was specifically swayed by protestors, well he has enough protests to pick from at the moment
         • Red 4.2.2.1.2

           24 January 2017 at 9:42 am

           At least he thinks rather than cut and paste
       • Bill 4.2.2.2

         24 January 2017 at 9:45 am

         Maybe not. Maybe even ‘probably not’ 😉

         But seeing Sanders get traction off the back of slamming free trade and then hearing from potential voters who had lost good jobs and been plunged into uncertainty and poverty…

         Or maybe he’s always been more of a protectionist. On that front, I simply don’t know.
         • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2.2.1

           24 January 2017 at 11:39 am

           Well those are good points
5. gsays 5

   24 January 2017 at 8:36 am

   Well, it’s not political,however the day has finally dawned,
   PJ Harvey plays tonight in Auckland.

   Got tickets the day they came on sale.

   One of the greats to come out of the 90s.
6. Paul 6

   24 January 2017 at 8:47 am

   Let’s stick to NZ issues and not allow US issues to swamp our own pressing issues.

   Liam Dann: Trump show risks swamping NZ’s big issues
   

   The epic scale of political conflict in the US is fantastic theatre – so much so it risks making New Zealand’s problems seem trivial.

   Donald Trump’s policies also have a big impact on us. Whether it is through trade or the extent to which he fires up the US economy – influencing currency, interest rates and inflation all over world.

   But let’s face it, it makes turning back to the big domestic issues in New Zealand hard work.
   • Red 6.1

     24 January 2017 at 9:52 am

     “Hard work” , in this regard ,I suggedt you up your u tube hyper links postings and duplicate across threads, plus repeat the same posting on multiple days, Ooops sorry you are already doing that
     • Paul 6.1.1

       24 January 2017 at 9:56 am

       You do realise that I take the fact you dislike my postings as evidence that they are of some use.
       • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.1

         24 January 2017 at 11:42 am

         My posts must be really useful then 🙂
7. RTM 7

   24 January 2017 at 9:20 am

   Credit to Otago Daily Times journalist Bruce Munro, who has exposed some of Otago’s links to the slave trade:
   https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/chained-sorry-trade
   http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/sometimes-silence-screams-bruce-munro.html

   Time for a memorial to the victims of NZ slavery?
   • Puckish Rogue 7.1

     24 January 2017 at 9:51 am

     National memorial…yeah I wouldn’t be opposed to that
   • reason 7.2

     24 January 2017 at 5:24 pm

     Thanks for the interesting and informative links RTM …I find it’s always good to learn the fuller picture of what has brought us to the here and now …

     At present we ‘benefit’ from a lot of modern slavery …. which like the old forms is built on abuse of power and injustice.

     This is done through main stream media silence …… and outright Government propaganda, ….. such as this statement from mfat.govt.nz regarding the gangster nation Indonesia ….” since democracy was restored in 1998.”

     Presumably mfat are referring to this ….. ” the Indonesian women’s movement, the entire trade union movement, intellectuals, teachers, and the ethnic Chinese, and also land reform advocates. So, within somewhere—within a year, somewhere between half a million and two-and-a-half million people were killed in what was really one of the very largest genocides in our history.

     And it was reported in the United States as good news. It was reported in The New York Times and Time magazine fairly accurately in terms of the death tolls, but with headlines like “A Gleam of Light in Asia,”. https://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/19/the_act_of_killing_new_film

     ‘Old news’ someone like James would say ……..

     But the problem is that the children of the murdered are presently being exploited in slave labor conditions ………. or cleared from their land again.

     And if they should try and join a union …. or speak out for land rights, protecting the environment etc ..

     They can be murdered with impunity ……….. just like their parents were.

     Make no mistake…. Indonesia is a country which would have murdered and tortured our late and great Helen Kelly.

     We should not be encouraging the Gangsters who currently run/own indonesia ….
     “July 2016: Prime Minister John Key and Trade Minister Todd McClay traveled to Indonesia for an official visit along with a high-level business delegation.”

     Tax havens like National made NZ into play a large roll in supporting enslavement, poverty and war in the world ….

     Dismantling it should be a priority https://www.oxfam.org/en/even-it/inequality-and-poverty-hidden-costs-tax-dodging
     • In Vino 7.2.1

       24 January 2017 at 7:39 pm

       No argument from me, reason. But Kiwis are so dislocated from any of this. Sad.
       • reason 7.2.1.1

         24 January 2017 at 9:14 pm

         True words In Vino ……….. but we have been kept in the dark to a large extent, and I cant blame the average person for that.

         I try and spread the word of the truth tellers …as I hope they and the truth will catch on

         For the good of everyone
8. Red 8

   24 January 2017 at 9:25 am

   More great insight from Paulsky

   [stop the trolling. Site-wide warning. – weka]

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • Paul 8.1

     24 January 2017 at 9:26 am

     6 7 trolls now.
     • Tarquin 8.1.1

       24 January 2017 at 9:40 am

       More interesting than the tripe you continually cut and paste.
     • reason 8.1.2

       24 January 2017 at 5:34 pm

       You do seem to get swarmed by the dick pics that our trolls are Paul …

       Attack of the rotten members club ….

       I Always try and use them to further expand inform and educate on the subject I’m posting about ………… for the normal readers and people.

       After all….. It’s only fitting that a dick pic should be used as a tool 🙂
9. xanthe 9

   24 January 2017 at 9:58 am

   here are some quotes and context from the julian assange live press conference last thursday

   http://wearechange.org/assange-talks-brennan-cia-future-journalism/
10. Andre 10

    24 January 2017 at 10:35 am

    The Chump fires his first shots as pres in his war on women.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-abortion-men_us_5886369be4b0e3a7356a7910?section=us_politics
    • joe90 10.1

      24 January 2017 at 11:29 am

      Goes global.

      BREAKING: Trump places hiring freeze on some federal workers, cuts off funding for international groups that perform abortions.— The Associated Press (@AP) January 23, 2017

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-global-gag-rule_us_58822355e4b070d8cad1f774?2h0qxx9cl5edrc0udi

      edit:

      Unsafe abortion accounts for 13% of all maternal deaths globally. Trump's reinstating the 'Global Gag Rule' will be deadly.— Laura Bassett (@LEBassett) January 23, 2017

      edit:

      If you're wondering what patriarchy looks like: A group of white men watch as Trump reinstates the #GlobalGagRule pic.twitter.com/ZV1OX41ziF— Jessica Valenti (@JessicaValenti) January 23, 2017
11. joe90 11

    24 January 2017 at 11:24 am

    Indeed.

    Throw your "Free Melania" signs in the trash. https://t.co/tJ1wRkXdLh— Meg 💫 (@MegRoseJoy) January 23, 2017

    Can't take credit for finding this, but here's @MELANIATRUMP pushing @realdonaldtrump's birtherism in 2011. pic.twitter.com/DyxlUBHbYI— Jack Runyan (@JackDRunyan) January 23, 2017
12. xanthe 12

    24 January 2017 at 11:51 am

    there has been a fair bit of talk about trolls on this site,
    words and the evolution of meaning interest me
    now troll has three meanings that precede its blog meaning
    1 a nasty creature that lives under a bridge and grabs you as you try and cross
    2 to systematically search an area
    3 to tow a lure and hope some sucker grabs it

    for me a (blog) troll brings images of the third , tow a lure and hope for a sucker
    do some of you have an image of the first, nasty creature that jumps out?
    or even the second, a systematic coverage of an area?

    there are certainly elements of all three meanings in the use of (blog) troll
    just interested cause words do matter but meaning is in the hearing
    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      24 January 2017 at 12:09 pm

      You forgot

      4 someone who says something I don’t like and/or agree with
      • xanthe 12.1.1

        24 January 2017 at 12:13 pm

        ahh that would be a new meaning specific to troll(blog). (but yes some do use it in that way here IMHO)

        altho as ugly/nasty are subjective it really just a restatement of 1

        (or is that just an example of 3. a lure!)
        • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1

          24 January 2017 at 12:29 pm

          My lips are sealed 🙂
    • lprent 12.2

      24 January 2017 at 12:57 pm

      Pretty much all three. Blog trolls tend to lurk around the posts waiting for a flamewar to flare. Sometimes they will drop incendiary and usually diversionary statements out to start the fire. Sometimes they will reinterpret someone elses comments to provoke them and others.

      Generally, moderators will tend to ignore a lot of the flaming because it fits under robust debate. It isn’t in the interests of the site of the commenters to shield people from the disagreements in society or from political debate. The only way to develop counters to arguments present in the wider society is to hear them expressed. However there is enough siloing of political debate already in both the media and other blogs.

      We look at the behaviour patterns of commenters and if they actually contribute anything to the ongoing debates. If the patterns of behaviour are unthinkingly repetitive or seem to be designed to just take over debate to drown out the voices of others then we treat the perpetrators as trolls as a rapidly escalating response.

      Which brings up the key attribute of trolls that you seem to have missed. They seem to have real problems both learning the boundaries of behaviour, and they usually hate their own behaviors and tactics being reflected back at themselves in nastier and more extreme forms. So you will see some moderators (mainly me at present) abbreviating the process by deliberately provoking them with exaggerated and very disdainful trolling behaviors aimed very personally at them in a demonstration of the net adage that there is always a bigger and better skilled arsehole on the net – they are often called sysops.
13. adam 13

    24 January 2017 at 12:16 pm

    As promised, more from Abby Martin – This time the Washington’s Women’s March. Short video – just over a minute.
14. Puckish Rogue 14

    24 January 2017 at 12:17 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/nor-west-news/88673292/astonishing-first-ever-nz-sighting-of-redfooted-booby

    Always a good day when you can spot a booby
15. Sabine 15

    24 January 2017 at 1:07 pm

    define resisting 🙂

    soon it my be a ‘hate crime’ to ‘resist’ arrest – at least in Louisianan if this goes through.

    Mind i can see other follow suit, rejoice private prison complex, i can see a few cheques coming your way.

    http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/louisiana-police-chief-pushes-blue-lives-matter-law-to-make-resisting-arrest-a-felony-hate-crime/
    • joe90 15.1

      24 January 2017 at 1:17 pm

      rejoice private prison complex

      They are.

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-09/private-prison-stocks-are-surging-after-trump-s-win
16. Draco T Bastard 16

    24 January 2017 at 2:39 pm

    Interview of Mark Ames by Abby Martin

    Empire Files: Post-Soviet Russia, Made in the U.S.A.
17. Puckish Rogue 17

    24 January 2017 at 3:09 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88710686/gareth-morgan-v-winston-peters–political-sledging-in-full-force-at-ratana

    Well at least the election won’t be a complete snore fest
18. Paul 18

    24 January 2017 at 4:19 pm

    Clean green New Zealand.

    Auckland’s water shock: Bacteria levels ‘dangerously high’
    

    Water Quality Tests

    • Sample taken from Cox’s Creek near Cox’s Bay revealed E. coli levels of 590 cfu/100ml

    • Sample taken at the head of Cox’s Creek just behind Kelmarna Ave found E. coli at 190,000 cfu/100mls – a level more than 1500 times the upper safe limit and a serious threat to human health.

    • The limit for recreation should be below 126 per 100mls.

    • Samples were collected last Thursday and tested by Watercare.
    • Carolyn_nth 18.1

      24 January 2017 at 4:25 pm

      So it’s outdoor lakes, etc that are polluted? I always boil my drinking water in Auckland – no faith in the system.
      • Paul 18.1.1

        24 January 2017 at 4:33 pm

        I think both rural and urban areas have problems due to a lack of rules.
19. joe90 19

    24 January 2017 at 4:30 pm

    In other news dear leader’s election was prophesied by a moose and heralded with a new moon in the heavens and a National Day of Patriotic Devotion.

    Trump issues proclamation designating 1/20/2017 "National Day of Patriotic Devotion" (seriously). Source: https://t.co/jehtGjU7dW pic.twitter.com/nPEbBP1Gwp— Ken Klippenstein (@kenklippenstein) January 23, 2017
20. Chris 20

    24 January 2017 at 4:33 pm

    Bad move for Little to criticise the Mp like this:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88703698/labour-leader-andrew-little-has-accused-the-maori-party-of-doing-nothing-for-their-people

    Little’s misreading the signals. The Mp must surely be set to ditch the nats. They’re coming home. The Mp has never been about right-wing policies. Going with the nats was a strategy to try to achieve “real” gains for Maori.

    They now see the error in that “better to be inside the tent” strategy. This also coincides with a general belief that Labour’s been punished enough for the F&S, and that it’s now time now to unite for what’s best for all Maori. Hone would not be dealing with the Mp in any way whatsoever if it meant helping the Mp to provide support that puts the nats back in government.

    If Little’s serious about winning the election then trying to chastise the Mp isn’t the way to go. He’s confusing the Mp’s beliefs with their strategy. There should be a far greater consistency between Labour and the Mp than the nats and the Mp. Little should not be afraid of Mana and the Mp taking the Maori seats, and if they do then at least work with those parties to achieve better outcomes for Maori, if not form the government with those parties.

    Little and Labour must be pretty stupid or have short memories if they think the Mp going with the nats was because the Mp embraced nat ideology. They don’t. And with everything that’s going on now Labour is completely dumb to slag them off.

    Labour should be bloody courting the Mp, not trying to alienate them. Heck, the party needs all the help it can get, especially when there’s no guarantee NZF won’t go with English.

    But then again, strategy and common sense have never been strong points for Labour, so no surprises there.
21. Morrissey 21

    24 January 2017 at 4:35 pm

    More evidence that not all people in sports are meatheads and cowards

    Sadly, we have recently seen the unedifying spectacle of cowardly coaches like Pittsburgh Steelers’ Mike Tomlin and the New Zealand Maoris’ Colin Cooper bullying their most thoughtful and intelligent players into dropping their political protests.

    But there ARE some decent people in big-time sports. People like Gregg Popovich, the coach of the San Antonio Spurs….

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/22/gregg-popovich-donald-trump-criticism-san-antonio-spurs-nba#comment-91696470
22. Paul 22

    24 January 2017 at 4:40 pm

    Uber NZ earns $1m, pays $9000 in tax

    Uber New Zealand Technologies paid $9397 in tax in 2014/15 despite earning revenue of more than $1 million from New Zealanders, we were confused. A person on $45,000 a year pays about $7800 in PAYE tax.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/308581/uber's-'extremely-elaborate'-tax-arrangements

    https://www.facebook.com/ActionStationNZ/photos/a.231204660335083.49804.194540734001476/1085764938212380/?type=3&theater
23. Stunned Mullet 23

    24 January 2017 at 4:51 pm

    Can everyone have state houses for life – I’d like to put several on back order for my children and their children.

    [Fuck off] – Bill

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
24. Morrissey 24

    24 January 2017 at 6:04 pm

    Norman Finkelstein has been attacked by a dead sheep

    Is there a stupider, more hapless politician anywhere in the world than Marco Rubio?

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2017/01/23/finkelstein-under-attack/
25. greywarshark 25

    24 January 2017 at 7:32 pm

    Trump and the endless reporting of his malapropisms, executive deductions, decision, etc will fill our media with Radionz or RNZ constantly reporting their tragedies and disasters and riots etc. (the other day there was a tornado over there did you know), don’t know what the private stations do. Perhaps ignore it and put on some romantic or rock.

    Can we please have a Trump and USA permanent post and everything be done there. Otherwise we are accepting our own brain washing which is a public relations and social psychology triumph for the PR and mind-bending fraternity.

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