Reeferendum madness
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- Date published:
7:39 am, May 8th, 2019 - 121 comments
Categories: crime, drugs, national, paula bennett, Politics, same old national, Simon Bridges -
Tags: chloe swarbrick
National thought it was onto a winner when it released a cabinet paper a couple of days ago about the cannabis referendum. Instead of being the party of leaks it was able to claim that the Government also had a leak problem although the actual extent of the problem may not have been high.
And it thought that it could embarrass the Government by showing that the Government was not serious about the referendum because it did not support the once the referendum passes then the law that Parliament had already passed comes into force option in the cabinet paper.
Instead the Government has gone with option 3, that is the referendum will include a non-binding question accompanied by draft legislation. But as confirmed by Jacinda Ardern in Parliament yesterday, the three Government parties have confirmed their agreement to respect the decision of the referendum and to vote in favour of the result.
There is a precedent for option 4, that is Parliament passes the law but it is conditional on an affirmative referendum vote. This was the original MMP legislation. But this was heavy duty electoral reform which Parliaments muck around with at their peril. By way of contrast drug law has always been subject to political whim and there is no sign that this is going to change.
Andrew Geddis sums up the situation in this passage:
… Chloe Swarbrick’s admission there was “no consensus” on adopting this “legislate, then let the people endorse” approach indicates that one of the governing parties was loathe to publicly vote for a bill to permit cannabis legalisation in advance of any referendum. We needn’t speculate for too long on which party that might be, because I think it will have the words “New” “Zealand” and “First” in it.
Which places us in a (to my mind) less-than-ideal place. Having said that, let’s not overly catastrophise the issue, shall we?
Any wailing and gnashing of teeth that the announced process means the referendum result now will be “non-binding” seems entirely misplaced to me. There simply is no such thing as a truly “binding” referendum in our system of parliamentary supremacy, because any parliament may undo what a previous parliament has decided.
Even if the current parliament were to enact legislation to legalise cannabis, and even if this were to be approved of by voters at a referendum, the next parliament is entirely free as a legal matter to retain or repeal it. Just as the next parliament is entirely free as a legal matter to enact or ignore any bill that the public say they want to see become the law.
Any difference in the two situations is then politico-moral in nature, not legal.
If the referendum passes then what will National do?
They spent all day avoiding the question. And no doubt they will be polling furiously to see if conservative voters otherwise supportive of Jacinda and Labour or even Winston and NZ First will switch because of the proposed reforms.
There is a cross party group in Parliament working which National has refused to engage in. And yesterday the reason was declared. Basically it involved Paula Bennett being bitchy.
From Radio New Zealand:
Mrs Bennett was asked whether she would participate, as National had refused to be part of the group that had been operating up until now.
The problem had been, she said, was the group was run by “Chloe [Swarbrick] and her mates”.
“I just don’t see how, with all respect, a junior member of Parliament that is not a part of government is the spokesperson on drug reform which could change the social fabric of this country.
“So if they’re serious about a cross-party, put a Cabinet minister in there and I will happily sit with them and any other Member of Parliament.”
And Simon Bridges started to talk about cannabis infused gummy bears. Which brought on this example of interweb brilliance.
He was kicked out of Parliament yesterday essentially for being an idiot. Not one National MP followed him. It must be really lonely being leader of the opposition right now.
And the MPs have been asked the compulsory “have you ever smoked cannabis question” and the responses have gone from a traditional “no way no how” to “yes I tried it once or twice but I did not like it”. Speaking as someone who grew up in South Auckland, went to University in the 1980s and then moved to West Auckland I am intrigued that they have lived such sheltered lives.
The topic is going to become intensely political and will have more than a minor effect on the next election in that it is expected to boost turnout. But do not expect a reasoned respectful discussion about what is best.
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- Surprise: Landlord tax cuts don’t trickle downThe Green Party is renewing its call for rent controls following reports of rental prices hitting an all-time high. ...1 week ago
- Release: $1.7b for no increase in access to medicineThe National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...1 week ago
- Release: National should heed Tribunal warning and scrap coalition commitment with ACTThis afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...1 week ago
- Release: More accountability for preventable workplace deaths this Workers’ Memorial DayLabour is calling for more accountability for preventable workplace deaths because everybody who goes to work deserves to come home safely. ...1 week ago
- Gaza: Aotearoa Must Support Independent Investigation into Mass GravesTe Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Working together on consistent support for veterans this Anzac DayOur two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Penny drops – but what about Seymour and Peters?Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...2 weeks ago
- Another ‘Stolen Generation’ enabled by court ruling on Waitangi Tribunal summonsTonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Budget blunder shows Nicola Willis could cut recovery fundingIt appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...2 weeks ago
- Further environmental mismanagement on the cardsThe Government’s resource management reforms will add to the heavy and ever-growing burden this Government is loading on to our environment. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: RMA changes will be a disaster for environmentThe Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour supports urgent changes to emergency management systemLabour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour calls for New Zealand to recognise PalestineThe Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Three strikes law political posturing of worst kindThe Government is bringing back a law that has little evidential backing just to look tough, Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Government cuts unbelievably target child exploitation, violent extremism, ports and airpor...Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...2 weeks ago
- Three strikes has failed before and will fail againResurrecting the archaic three-strikes legislation is an unwelcome return to a failed American-style approach to justice. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Environmental protection vital, not ‘onerous’The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...2 weeks ago
- Ferris – Three Strikes targets those ‘too brown to be white’The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Govt cuts doctors and nurses in hiring freezeCuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...3 weeks ago
- Getting new job seekers on the pathway to work
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...9 hours ago - Accelerating Social InvestmentA new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...11 hours ago
- Getting Back on TrackCheck against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...11 hours ago
- NZ – European Union ties more critical than everYour Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...1 day ago
- Therapeutic Products Act to be repealedThe Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...1 day ago
- Decisions on Wellington City Council’s District PlanThe Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...1 day ago
- Rape Awareness Week: Government committed to action on sexual violenceRape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...1 day ago
- Smarter lunch programme feeds more, costs lessAssociate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...1 day ago
- Report provides insights into marine recoveryNew research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...1 day ago
- NZ to send political delegation to the PacificDeputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...1 day ago
- Low gas production threatens energy securityThere has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...2 days ago
- Defence industry talent, commitment recognisedDefence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...2 days ago
- Speech to the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for IndustryWelcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...2 days ago
- Speech to the Sixth Annual New Zealand Government Data SummitIt is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...2 days ago
- Ceasefire agreement needed now: PetersNew Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...2 days ago
- Daily school attendance data now availableA new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...2 days ago
- Ambassador to United States appointedForeign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...2 days ago
- New permit proposed for recreational gold miningThe Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...2 days ago
- NZ and the UAE launch FTA negotiationsMinister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...3 days ago
- New Zealand Sign Language Week an opportunity for anyone to signNew Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...3 days ago
- Next stop NASA for New Zealand studentsSix tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...3 days ago
- $1.9 billion investment to keep NZ safe from crimeNew Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...3 days ago
- OECD reinforces need to control spendingThe OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...3 days ago
- Agreement delivers Local Water Done Well for AucklandThe Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...4 days ago
- Gaza and the Pacific on the agenda with GermanyForeign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...5 days ago
- Decision allows for housing growth in Western Bay of PlentyThe Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...6 days ago
- Speech to New Zealand China CouncilThank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...6 days ago
- Modern insurance law will protect Kiwi householdsThe Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...1 week ago
- Government recommits to equal payThe coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...1 week ago
- Transforming how our children learn to readStructured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...1 week ago
- NZ not backing down in Canada dairy disputeTrade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...1 week ago
- Stronger oversight for our most vulnerable childrenThe rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...1 week ago
- Streamlining Building Consent ChangesThe Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...1 week ago
- Minister acknowledges passing of Sir Robert Martin (KNZM)New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...1 week ago
- Speech to New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Parliament – Annual Lecture: Challenges ...Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...1 week ago
- Accelerating airport security linesFrom today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...1 week ago
- Community hui to talk about kina barrensPeople with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...1 week ago
- Kiwi exporters win as NZ-EU FTA enters into forceKiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...1 week ago
- Mining resurgence a welcome signThere are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...1 week ago
- Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill passes first readingThe return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...1 week ago
- How KidsCan provides a nutritious school lunch for $2
A charity says it is - and that it has been doing so while providing fresh meals for nearly 6000 children per day. ...31 mins ago - Shane Jones sets sights on killer kina – 'An industrial grade problem'"They kill all the kelp, they kill all the seaweed, and they turn the marine environment into a virtual desert," the Fisheries Minister says. ...53 mins ago
- Using a structured literacy approach to teach reading: What you need to knowExplainer - The government from 2025 is mandating how state schools teach children to read. But what is structured literacy and how does it compare to other teaching methods? ...2 hours ago
- ‘We do not want to be like Russia’: a first-hand account of Georgia’s fight for democracy
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Danica Jenkins, Lecturer in European Studies, University of Sydney On a freezing spring night in March, Georgia’s national soccer team beat Greece in a nail-biter penalty shootout to qualify for the Euro 2024 championships. The atmosphere on the streets of the capital ...2 hours ago - Our research shows higher carbon emissions increase costs for Australian businessesSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adam G. Arian, Lecturer (Accounting & Finance), Australian Catholic University Loic Manegarium/Pexels Imagine every ton of carbon dioxide a company emits is slowly inflating its costs — not just in terms of potential fines or fees but in the capital it ...3 hours ago
- Ponsonby shooting: Hone Kay-Selwyn death not suspiciousThe death of Hone Kay-Selwyn, who was involved in the Ponsonby shooting, is not being treated as suspicious, police say. ...4 hours ago
- Our cities are widening the divide between the well-off and the rest. How can we turn this damaging ...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Somwrita Sarkar, Senior Lecturer in Design and Computation, University of Sydney The “latte line” is the infamous, invisible boundary that divides Sydney between the more affluent north-east and the south-west. Historically, people north of the line enjoy better access to jobs and ...4 hours ago
- Supercharged thunderstorms: have we underestimated how climate change drives extreme rain and floods...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Dowdy, Principal Research Scientist in Extreme Weather, The University of Melbourne Nomad_Soul/Shutterstock In media articles about unprecedented flooding, you’ll often come across the statement that for every 1°C of warming, the atmosphere can hold about 7% more moisture. This ...4 hours ago
- Former Fiji PM Voreqe Bainimarama jailed over block of USP probeRNZ Pacific Former Fiji Prime Minister Voreqe Bainimarama has been sentenced to one year in prison, Fiji media are reporting. Bainimarama, alongside suspended Fiji Police Commissioner Sitiveni Qiliho appeared in the High Court in Suva today for their sentencing hearing for a case involving their roles in blocking a police ...5 hours ago
- ACC proposes cutting more than 300 jobsThe cuts would be a 9 percent reduction in the Crown entity's total workforce. ...5 hours ago
- Government To Respond To 259 Human Rights Recommendations
Acting Chief Human Rights Commissioner Saunoamaali’i Dr Karanina Sumeo says, “Addressing violence and abuse remains New Zealand’s most significant human rights issue affecting women. ...5 hours ago - Marlborough by-election still possible when MP Jamie Arbuckle resignsThe mayor says she understands the MP's bid to avoid a costly by-election but the decision is one for councillors. ...5 hours ago
- Glaring Hole Exposed In Government’s Single Use Plastics BanJust Earth Papers has challenged the Ministry for Environment to follow its own guidance on the phase out and ban of single-use plastics. ...5 hours ago
- ACT's interpretation of Treaty of Waitangi inaccurate and misleading – claimantsSpeaking to the Waitangi Tribunal, Ngāpuhi Kaumātua Hone Sadler said ACT's interpretation is not in tune with the intent of Te Tiriti. ...5 hours ago
- Should we fight climate change by re-engineering life itself?Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Symons, Macquarie School of Social Sciences, Macquarie University Michael Schiffer / Unsplash Life has transformed our world over billions of years, turning a dead rock into the lush, fertile planet we know today. But human activity is currently transforming Earth ...5 hours ago
- Please let me watch the horny tennis movie at a reasonable time
One woman’s quest to watch Challengers without ruining her body clock. Every Saturday morning, I wake up with a screaming demon inside my head urging me to “Do. Something. This. Weekend.” I run through the possibilities in my head in a defensive mental crouch, reminiscent of that one time I ...5 hours ago - ACC Job Cuts Will Mean More Accidents And InjuriesThe PSA is alarmed that ACC is proposing to shed 309 jobs including 29 dedicated injury prevention jobs at a time when the number and cost of injuries is rising. ...5 hours ago
- ACC proposes cutting nearly 400 jobsThe cuts would be a 9 percent reduction in the Crown entity's total workforce. ...6 hours ago
- ‘City deals’ are coming to NZ – let’s make sure they’re not ‘city back-room deals’Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tom Baker, Associate Professor in Human Geography, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Getty Images As local and regional councils struggle with inadequate infrastructure and unsustainable costs, New Zealand will be hearing a lot more about the potential solution offered by ...6 hours ago
- Not all ultra-processed foods are bad for your health, whatever you might have heardSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gary Sacks, Professor of Public Health Policy, Deakin University Drazen Zigic/Shutterstock In recent years, there’s been increasing hype about the potential health risks associated with so-called “ultra-processed” foods. But new evidence published this week found not all “ultra-processed” foods are linked ...7 hours ago
- Explainer: Nicola Willis' pre-Budget speech – what we learntThe Finance Minister has done a conservative lift of the lid on her upcoming Budget. Here's what she laid out. ...7 hours ago
- Explainer: Nicola Willis's pre-Budget speech – what we learntThe Finance Minister has done a conservative lift of the lid on her upcoming Budget. Here's what she laid out. ...7 hours ago
- NZ's reliance on forests to absorb carbon emissions is risky – OECD reportFears that New Zealand is relying too heavily on low-cost forests to absorb its carbon dioxide emissions have been reignited by a report from the OECD. ...8 hours ago
- Cabinet mulls creation of mega spy agency as FIANZ seeks 'serious rethink'The agency, first floated after the Christchurch mosque attacks, is under "active consideration". ...8 hours ago
- Public services savings confirmed, but possibly not complete
Finance Minister Nicola Willis has confirmed the total dollar savings target from public sector cuts has been met, but the reductions have not been felt evenly across public agencies. Government departments were told to make savings set at 6.5 percent or 7.5 percent where headcount had grown by more than ...8 hours ago - Help Me Hera: Are my friend’s compliments of our other mate designed to terrorise me?She doesn’t have a single kind word for me and it’s getting under my skin. Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nz Dear Hera, I have two amazing friends that I absolutely adore. Grace (all names have been changed) and I lived together across 2023 and Olivia moved in with us this ...8 hours ago
- How mana whenua lead the way in revolutionising environmental healingCan Western science and Māori science work together to support our well-being? The Te Ohu Mō Papatūānuku (TOMP) Trials Project was a landmark case for healing the land and people with the guidance of Māori science and leadership. This is what happened when Papatūānuku (Earth) was contaminated by toxic discharge, ...8 hours ago
- Government to introduce compulsory work seminar for job-seeking beneficiariesBeneficiaries looking for a job will have to attend a work seminar within two weeks of starting to receive welfare under new requirements. ...9 hours ago
- Photos are everywhere. What makes a good one?Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By T.J. Thomson, Senior Lecturer in Visual Communication & Digital Media, RMIT University T.J. Thomson We upload some 3 billion images online each day. We make most of these photos on smartphones and use these devices to document everything from gym progress ...10 hours ago
- 'Darkest before the dawn': Nicola Willis rules out austerity Budget"Every dollar counts and our Budget will reflect that reality," the Finance Minister has told an audience.. ...10 hours ago
- Wellington’s new District Plan can be the path forward out of the city’s malaiseThe District Plan is a blueprint for a bigger, better Wellington, through tens of thousands of new apartments and townhouses and a new approach to urban growth. Joel MacManus lays out the vision. The process of putting together Wellington’s new District Plan has been long and excruciating. As a city, ...10 hours ago
- AI companions can relieve loneliness – but here are 4 red flags to watch for in your chatbot ‘fr...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dan Weijers, Senior Lecturer in Philosophy, Co-editor International Journal of Wellbeing, University of Waikato Jaap Arriens/NurPhoto via Getty Images It’s been seven years since the launch of Replika, an artificially intelligent chatbot designed to be a friend to human users. Despite ...10 hours ago
- Paris in spring, Bali in winter. How ‘bucket lists’ help cancer patients handle life and deathSource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Leah Williams Veazey, ARC DECRA Research Fellow, University of Sydney DavideAngelini/Shutterstock In the 2007 film The Bucket List Jack Nicholson and Morgan Freeman play two main characters who respond to their terminal cancer diagnoses by rejecting experimental treatment. Instead, they go ...10 hours ago
- Heat is coming for our crops. We have to make them readySource: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mohan Singh, Professor of Agri-Food Biotechnology, School of Agriculture, Food and Ecosystem Sciences at the University of Melbourne., The University of Melbourne Tanja Esser/Shutterstock Australia’s vital agriculture sector will be hit hard by steadily rising global temperatures. Our climate is already ...10 hours ago
- Why Trust Is A MustThe Acumen Edelman Trust barometer reported that New Zealand’s political trust score now sits below the global average, a topic explored in a recent discussion paper by Maxim Institute. ...10 hours ago
- Protest March Against Fast-track Bill Announced For AucklandGreenpeace Aotearoa executive director Russel Norman says, "The Fast-Track Bill is the most damaging piece of environmental legislation any Government has introduced in living memory. People are angry, and it’s time to march." ...11 hours ago
- Watch live: Finance Minister Nicola Willis makes pre-Budget speechFinance Ministers have used past pre-Budget speeches to reveal where savings have been found and what rules have been set. ...11 hours ago
- A busy week at school for David SeymourThe school lunches programme has been retained – and will be extended to some preschoolers. So how is it going to cost $107 million less? To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. The minister with many hats David Seymour wears a number of hats, but this week ...12 hours ago
- 'Completely stupid' – ex-Tuvalu PM on Shane Jones' oil and gas commentsEnele Sopoaga - who still serves as an MP in Tuvalu - says the climate crisis is the "main enemy". ...12 hours ago
- School lunch revamp: 'The biggest waiting list since 2018'Up to 10,000 more hungry children under five will become eligible for free lunches under the government's revised lunches in schools programme. ...12 hours ago
- Book of the Week: Ashleigh Young on an extinction event“Show us the bird,” I found myself muttering at times while reading Hard by the Cloud House by Peter Walker, a deeply thoughtful, often hilarious, at times rambling – but somehow delightfully so – search for the story of a big bird. But not just any bird: the bird. This ...13 hours ago
- A ‘sponge city’ may be your home in 2050Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jack Marley, Environment + Energy Editor, UK edition DPVUE .images/Shutterstock Your home was probably designed for a climate that no longer exists. As long as humanity continues to burn fossil fuel, padding the heat-trapping blanket of gases in Earth’s atmosphere, the ...13 hours ago
- Tikanga is the first law of AotearoaA senior lawyer has filed a complaint about tikanga becoming a required law school module. Law lecturer Carwyn Jones explains what he’s getting wrong. “…the first law of Aotearoa, a law that served the needs of tangata whenua for a thousand years before the arrival of tauiwi.” – Ani Mikaere ...14 hours ago
- ‘Your agency is taken away’: When endometriosis treatment changes without your consentIn 2019, an Auckland woman woke up from surgery to find that she had undergone a treatment she didn’t consent to. She tells Alex Casey about her experience. From her very first period at the age of 14, Laura experienced “debilitating” levels of pain that forced her to withdraw from ...14 hours ago
- DoC set to cut permanent jobs on Chatham IslandsIn the gloom following director-general Al Morrison’s job cuts in 2013, the Department of Conservation restructured its operations arm. Eleven conservancy districts were whittled into six new “conservation delivery” regions, under which the Rēkohu/Wharekauri/Chatham Islands area, comprising 40 scattered islands more than 800km east of Christchurch, was tethered to the ...14 hours ago
- Levels of litigation rising with economic hardshipOne of th e country’s top litigation lawyers says New Zealand is seeing a lift in court action between companies. Chapman Tripp partner Justin Graham, who oversees a team of around 80 litigation specialists, says the courts are now so log-jammed that it’s taking over two years to get cases ...14 hours ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Thursday 9 MayLoading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A,DIV,A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Thursday 9 May appeared first on Newsroom. ...14 hours ago
- China challenges must be managed if opportunities are to be sustainedOpinion: A continuation of the previous Labour government’s ‘China-plus’ diversification strategy The post China challenges must be managed if opportunities are to be sustained appeared first on Newsroom. ...14 hours ago
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"“I just don’t see how, with all respect, a junior member of Parliament that is not a part of government is the spokesperson on drug reform which could change the social fabric of this country."
She has a point tbf
Does she? What was Ms Bennett doing at a similar age? Being a solo mother living off the tax payer, I suppose in some ways that defeats my argument but the young person is there and is part of the whole.
I have issue that M Barry of all people is allowed to meddle with submissions about political interference in NZ especially as she is reported to have "religiously" ignored (went off and got coffee) while submissions opposed to her personal position were being made in the euthanasia submission process.
The "young" person is not the final word on the conclusions just part of the process and that looking to the future is how it should be.
"He referred questions to Barry, saying he had been told by the clerk that Barry had made the scheduling decision.
Meanwhile, Barry said it was the responsibility of the clerk to schedule submitters and manage meeting times."
"But the message from the clerk to the (currently recused) chair, Huo, seemed to contradict Barry’s statement. The text said the hearing had been postponed to the next sitting block by Barry."
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/05/08/573531/foreign-interference-inquiry-shambles-shows-issue-not-a-priority
Well said, Rapunzel. Bennett was a 'bludger' by her own definition. National's 'wimmin' are not too much different from their 'menfolk' – myopic, self serving and ignorant.
Paula would have been outclassed at every step.
Paula is ambitious and devious. She'll avoid Chloe as long as is possible as Chloe would demolish her BS.
paula is very afraid of the youth – she knows they see her bullshit, her anger, and they know it for what it is – bluster to hide a terrified idiot.
I think her point is that there's no way in hell she's going to put herself in a situation where the press gallery delights in showing a "junior Member of Parliament" running rings around her and making her look stupid.
bennett is doing a good job by herself looking foolish . she is looking more and more like christine rankin . as the old saying go's "act your age, not your shoe size" spray on tans arent a good look …
Spray on Tan?
I thought that was her Maori heritage coming out?
That's right, Chris; some old tusker should be fronting the cannabis issue.
just a word with new Minister in charge of climate change -Paula Bennett…'what do you know about climate change'?
Bennett…'nothing'!
It is common, in organized hierarchies, for bolder steps to come from younger members, they have more to gain and less to lose. NZ used to lead the world on social issues of this kind, but we've fallen behind, held back by the halt and the lame (the Gnats and Treasury respectively).
Labour lack the intestinal fortitude for a CGT, so of course they'll leave the legalization issue in (to them) disposable hands. Paula has nothing to say on the matter, or she would have said it. The Gnats are waiting to see which way the public will jump every bit as spinelessly as the coalition.
Labour have always been divided on this issue and don't have a policy. The Greens have always had a policy to change the law. Chloe is the spokesperson for it. The referendum was part of the Green-Labour agreement. So it is Chloe who is driving the thing.
tbf…most things that have changed the social fabric of NZ society haven't been lead by members of Parliament or members of the Government..so I'm not entirely sure what Bennetts point is really.
Kate Sheppard, Dame Whina Cooper, Samuel Parnell, S. P. Andrews, Don McMorland and Alan Ivory, Dr Frederick King…
MMP chris the same as epsom voting for on person who had so much power with very little votes and got in his charter schools policy
National don't know what to do because they are conservatives and cannot see the future. They are incapable of leading and will not do anything until they see what the polls say.
As always, the National Party will end up where the hippies were long ago, and where most of the community is already.
Conservatives. They have such limited use.
"the National Party will end up where the hippies were long ago"
That's very encouraging!
nailed it vto. conservatives are never leaders, only followers…..
Did I see that initial polls had support for legalisation at 70-80%?
I doubt it. The current Newshub poll has support for personal use at 65%. Dunno if their sample is sufficient, but if so the public mood in favour of progress is firming.
In January, the Herald reported that "60 per cent of New Zealanders would vote to legalise cannabis for personal use in a referendum… 24 per cent would vote "no", and 16 per cent had no opinion." https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12187654
There needs to be a second referendum question running alongside the cannabis one to reduce the most real drug damage in New Zealand, as follows;
"Should alcohol be criminalised in NZ?"
because prohibition has obviously worked before with alcohol as it's working now with cannabis.
Idiot.
So, cannabis needs to be decriminalised because criminalising recreational drug use promotes organised crime and exposes users to greater health risks, but alcohol should be criminalised because criminalisation would reduce harm from drugs? You seem very, very confused….
I think vto's question is designed to make people think obliquely. Vto is not an "idiot". Reflecting on alcohol's status would likely bring cannabis' present status into better focus.
Despite being an entire "novice" in regard to this the status and effects of alcohol have influenced my opinion, just because the use of that is normalised does not reduce the outcomes if it. I can't see one of my family/friends for who drinking is a fairly regular thing in their enjoyment of some events standing by an seeing that made illegal in any more ways than it is and I also can't imagine any more than might use cannabis at times all of a sudden taking it up.
My concerns were particularly in regards to employment but people who drink on weekends etc manage to meet those obligations as I imagine do those who use cannabis.
As far as it goes for the damaging ends of either I can't see any if much difference. Try criminalising the use of alcohol entirely and see what would happen.
Prohibition doesn't work. Simple. there is no oblique thinking required.
if it's harmful, legislate for controls. like minimum age purchasing. if it's not harmful, there is no need for controls.
Making criminals out of craft beer drinkers and weed smokers is stupid. it puts otherwise law abiding citizens in harms way.
Prohibition of alcohol led to an increase in ABV being consumed. the law didn't differentiate between types of alcohol as it doesn't between types of marijuana.
So calling for a parallel referendum on prohibition on alcohol is as stupid as not making it binding for cannabis. And i don't even smoke the stuff.
"Vto is not an "idiot". "
lol bold statements require evidence please
we need less restrictions not more imo
evidence abounds in every comment marty mars…
Yes that's right Robert, it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion to highlight the hypocritical position of alcohol relative to cannabis. And its very real danger to society.
Apologies to shrewsbury and others who I seem to have led to think I was being serious.
Alcohol is deadly dangerous. Cannabis is piss-weak in comparison.
Apologiies for not picking that up. Yes, alcohol's coming in very handy in my comments to Kiwiblog readers on this subject – most of the war-on-drugs enthusiasts' comments could be ridiculed just by replacing the word 'marijuana' with 'alcohol' in them. The cognitive dissonance is mind-boggling.
its sad , vto, that you have to explain your leg-pulling. far too many on here are all too ready to be outraged. it seems to be the default position for some.
Derision, not outrage.
Reeferedum thoughts
by Andrew Geddis
"The Government's proposed model for the forthcoming referendum on marijuana legalisation isn't ideal. But the difference between it and the ideal really is pretty minimal."
The coalition is using both/and logic: promoting a binding referendum that isn't binding. Will it work? Surprising perhaps, but I suspect it will. They are calling it binding on the basis that the three parties in government have agreed to framing the referendum on the basis of three principles (freedom to use, grow & buy cannabis in a regulated market), and agreed to legislate the draft bill (yet to be written) into law if the public gives it the mandate.
Barry Soper: "The Justice Ministry's told the Beehive that for it to be binding there has to be referendum legislation that sets out the law that'll be automatically enacted in the event of a 'yes' vote. And Parliament's clerk, the oracle of the process, says for a referendum to be binding legislation needs to be passed through the House with a section stipulating when the law comes into force after the vote's been taken. The Government argues all parties have to sign up to the legislation because it's not possible to bind a future Parliament considering if there's a change of Government, all bets are off." https://www.nzherald.co.nz//nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12228781&ref=clavis
So that's why the legalistic view that the referendum will not be binding is technically correct. If the coalition is defeated at the next election and National forms the next government, it will not be bound by the referendum outcome.
Simon Collins reports "58 per cent supported decriminalising cannabis and 35 per cent opposed it" in a "UMR survey of 1000 New Zealanders" six months ago. Hosking's attempt to stem the tide of public opinion seems Don Quixoteish.
There's also evidence that the divide between perception and reality is afflicting conservatives severely: "Two-thirds (63 per cent) of those who supported decriminalisation correctly believed that that was the majority view. But only 35 per cent of those who opposed decriminalisation believed they were in the minority. Another third incorrectly thought they were in the majority and a third were unsure." https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12228759
basis of three principles (freedom to use, grow & buy cannabis in a regulated market),
No, the announcement said there would be provisions for limited home growing. I was surprised at this and it shows a win for the Greens.
If the coalition is defeated at the next election and National forms the next government, it will not be bound by the referendum outcome.
National would not be bound by it anyway. In our system parliament is supreme so they could just repeal it on day one.
I would have thought freedom to grow cannabis covered growing for personal use as well as growing for legal supply to others.
I'm not sure what you mean. Under whatever model a license will be required to grow commercially, so very limited freedom there. Growing for personal use is a separate issue.
The three principles were freedom to use, freedom to grow (not just with a license) and freedom to buy in a regulated market.
It doesn't read that way to me.
If policy is in accord with those three principles, and includes growing for personal use, that is how it was supposed to be understood.
Tactics used to stop the CGT are already being used in opposition. Hosking lite on the one hand and the premium version from John Roughan the former editorial writer – trying out divide and conquer, posing the original camapigners for drug reform as libertarians and the lot pushing this legislative change as nanny state controlled supply authoritarians.
I did not read the full article of course, but the approach was likely designed to get those opposed to state regulation and control to oppose it and those opposed to people being able to grow their own also opposing it (the methodology which blocked the referendum on a republic in Oz).
National really are a bunch of prudes.
They will get more prudish when the Asian and South African evangalicals and the incel Peterson fanboys come up through the ranks.
Their vision for NZ is a puritanical hell hole, where anything fun is outlawed.
Ive always been fascinated at the crossover point with conservatives ,where prudishness meets personal freedoms. very uncomfortable bedfellows .
Sound objections to decriminalising marijuana for recreational use can be expressed without any recourse to moral arguments.
And even for those of us with libertarian leanings, personal freedoms are not without limits.
Conservatism actually coexists far more comfortably with personal liberty than leftist ideology.
is that because conservative principles are always saleable, er, negotiable? …SEAT FOR SALE $100,000, cash and carry, see natforsale.org
All principles are for sale – in the hands of politicians. Progressives sell out just as quickly as conservatives. I would hope we could have a discussion about principles in the hands of ethical men and women.
Whatever.
As LGBT people in Poland if they have "personal freedom", given they get harrassed and beaten every day.
Strange that you use Poland as an example. In Poland LGBT people have protection under the law. That is liberty. Unlike many Islamic countries where LGBT people actually have their personal liberty restricted under the law.
The nat's would outlaw everything except their drug of choice, which they made sure was available at the supermarket.
Any referendum will be based on legislation not assembled by a national led government, so they have no obligation to commit to being bound by the results.
They'd give it the flick. If their polling showed advantage.
Ah a cynic. But yes I am too. Politicians are all self serving. It's DNA.
1st and 2nd sentence, reasonable statements, 3rd and 4th, just nonsense.
" Politicians are all self serving. It's DNA. "
Sue Bradford, Nandor Tanzcos, Laila Harre all make a mockery of your statement.
Just a coincidence they are of a left persuasion.
Nah, they are all just as bad.
No, they are not at all as you portray them, as most here will know. What's the purpose of your sowing the seeds of doubt and discontent here, Shadrach? You might think you are landing blows, but really, readers here are thinking, he blows!
There is a delusion abroad that left wing politicians somehow hold to a higher ethical standard than those from the right. Apart from the obvious historical evidence to the contrary, my experience of politicians generally is that they have a personal ideological agenda that taints their objectivity. These are not 'seeds of doubt and discontent'; they are presenting a realistic view of those who seek to lead, and one reason why I support less government than more.
Shadrach, that is convenient for you if nothing else. It shelters you from having to question your own values, and enables you to dismiss anything any left-wing politician says without you having to even think about it.
I call it cowardice.
What makes you assume I dismiss anything any left wing politician says? In fact what makes you think I dismiss anything any politician says?
Your facile comment at 8.1.1
I said they were self serving. Why would you assume from that I dismiss anything they say?
Because you have said that they are all self-serving. That means they cannot be trusted.
But now anything they say may suddenly be golden wisdom?
Give us a break.. You are prevaricating.
"Because you have said that they are all self-serving. That means they cannot be trusted."
I know many people I don't trust, yet I don't dismiss everything they say. You appear to be quite naive.
More prevarication. at 8.1.1.2.1 you write, "No, they are all just as bad."
Now you pretend to value parts of what they say.
Please try to be less bombastic and limit the negativity of your original statements if you are going to retract later on when taken to task.
It is entirely possible for me to take notice of some things said by people I consider 'untrustworthy'. I might not agree with everything or even anything they say, but that doesn't mean I dismiss it without consideration.
This really is a simple concept.
Trust has nothing to do with agreement, and everything to do with reliability.
If someone is completely untrustworthy, then what they say has a 50:50 chance of being true. Their claims of fact are primarily worthless. There might be a secondary value in them tipping their hand to their motives or plans, but even that can't be relied on.
"Trust has nothing to do with agreement, and everything to do with reliability."
"If someone is completely untrustworthy, then what they say has a 50:50 chance of being true. "
So it is reasonable for me to not dismiss everything said by someone I do not trust. In Vino seems to be struggling to understand this.
So probability ain't your strong point, is it.
If they were completely reliable, 100% accurate, you can rely on their claims. "I support Bridges" – Bridges has the support of that person.
If they were reliably incorrect, you can be sure what they say is false – which can also be a useful thing to observe. "I support Bridges" – now you know they do not support Bridges.
But 50:50? It's useless.
I don't believe trust is inextricably linked to reliability at all. It is possible to trust an entirely unreliable person, because trust can be a subjective assessment. But I ran with your (imperfect) material.
You said "If someone is completely untrustworthy, then what they say has a 50:50 chance of being true. "
So, even if I don’t trust a person, why would I dismiss everything they say?
Because what they say gives you no additional information. It might be true, it might not.
Let's say you're working with the sort of person who says whatever they think you want to hear. You have a checklist of tasks to get through together. They say all the tasks have been done. Because you can't trust them, you have to check each and every task yourself, even though there's a 50:50 chance everything has in fact been done.
Now, if you were working with someone you could trust to only lie (0:100, because they hate you and just want to piss you around at work, but are too stupid to do it properly), if they said "everything has been done" you knew at least one item had not been done.
If you worked with someone you could trust to tell the truth all the time (100:0), if they said everything was done, everything was done.
But 50:50 offers no information whatsoever. So it can be discarded with ease.
“Because what they say gives you no additional information. It might be true, it might not.”
So it is reasonable to listen to them, on the basis that what they say may be true. Or may have value, depending on the context of what is being considered.
So you ask your colleague "has the power been turned off so I can hook up this expensive piece of hardware without frying it?"
Your colleague answers "yes".
Now, that might be true, but has an even chance of being false and the hardware will be fried.
So how does their answer provide you any useful information whatsoever? You still need to check the power yourself. It would be quicker to not ask them anything in the first place, and just do it yourself from the start.
"So how does their answer provide you any useful information whatsoever?"
It doesn't, necessarily. But that doesn't mean I then take no notice of anything else that person says in the future about any subject. An illustration…if Hitler were alive today I would not trust him. But here's an interesting thing…Hitler was a strong opponent of smoking. In fact his government banned smoking from many public spaces, and funded research on the effects of smoking on health. So do I dismiss Hitler's views on smoking just because I don't trust him?
Yes.
His views on smoking are irrelevant to whether they match reality. It's the other sources, the ones that demonstrate whether he was correct or incorrect, that you pay attention to and from which you should draw your conclusions. You'll probably find he was antismoking because he saw a picture of Marx with a pipe. Any relation to reality is purely coincidental.
If someone is untrustworthy, then their claims are worthless until they talk about some subject area in which they have earned some level of trust.
"You'll probably find he was antismoking because he saw a picture of Marx with a pipe. Any relation to reality is purely coincidental."
So? That doesn't mean we should dismiss his opinion, because whatever it's motivation, history showed him to be correct!
"If someone is untrustworthy, then their claims are worthless until they talk about some subject area in which they have earned some level of trust."
Untrustworthy? Perhaps. False? Not necessarily. Hitler proved that.
Your "not necessarily" and your "perhaps" are the point. Without even a "probably" or "probably not", his input on the matter is pointless.
The London sewers ended the cholera epidemics, even though they were designed to remove the smell that at that time was believed to be the cause of disease (hence "malaria"). Massive public works created an infrastructure that just happened to be the solution to the problem. That doesn't mean the "bad air" hypothesis should be considered as a root cause of every disease someone gets. Pharmac should not spend millions of dollars providing extractor fans for everyone's bedrooms in an effort to contain the measles outbreak..
"Your "not necessarily" and your "perhaps" are the point. Without even a "probably" or "probably not", his input on the matter is pointless."
To you, maybe. Not to me. I wouldn't trust him to run a country, but when it came to smoking, he was on the money, so on that his input was far from pointless.
Is my clothes iron off or on at the moment? I want to go to bed soon without the house burning down, and apparently it would be reasonable for me to listen to your perspective on the matter, because you might be on the money.
"Is my clothes iron off or on at the moment? "
How would I know? But ask me about a business decision you need to make and you'll get an informed response.
Hitler couldn’t be trusted to run a country, but he was right about smoking. And a few other things, BTW.
So to know if my iron is on, your contribution is worthless unless I know how you know.
But Hitler lucked out and was antismoking, so we should listen to his perspective on that even though we don't know how he came to that conclusion.
You're just a touch inconsistent there.
"You're just a touch inconsistent there."
Not at all. My argument is we should not dismiss everything someone says simply because we don't trust them. Hitler was right about smoking. Luck or otherwise is irrelevant (and that's debatable), he was right. And that is all that is required to have made listening to him on that one point alone worthwhile.
And yet you regarded the question about whether the iron was switched on as silly, even though there was a 50:50 chance you'd be correct and therefore listening to you on that one point would have been worthwhile.
Your position relies on us knowing before the fact whether or not the untrustworthy person is actually making a true claim in this instance. Which means we have to verify it through other means. Which we would have to do anyway, without the untrustworthy person's input. So their claims do not add any information to our decision-making framework or affect our behaviour in relation to the issue at hand.
So why would you take any notice of them?
"And yet you regarded the question about whether the iron was switched on as silly, even though there was a 50:50 chance you'd be correct and therefore listening to you on that one point would have been worthwhile."
I didn't at all say it was silly. I asked you 'how would I know', meaning it would be a strange thing for you to ask me.
“Your position relies on us knowing before the fact whether or not the untrustworthy person is actually making a true claim in this instance."
This is where you are so very wrong. How do I know whether their claim is true without listening to them? And even after listening to them, I might need to go away and do more research.
The citizens of germany had no idea whether Hitler was correct about smoking – that didn't mean they should just ignore him on that issue simply because they might have not trusted him to run their country.
Your approach seems to be that someone you do not trust has absolutely nothing of value to say. I reject that absolutely.
Why would it be a strange thing for me to ask? There's an even chance you'd be correct, and thus have a useful perspective on the matter..
No, after listening to them you would still need to go and do the research. Whereas if you just did the research, you'd have the information you want more quickly than if you stopped to listen to them.
Yeah, it did. A stuck clock is correct twice a day, that doesn't mean that you should consult it to find out what time it is. Because even if it's correct, you'd still need a reliable clock to tell you the stuck clock works.
“Why would it be a strange thing for me to ask?”
Because I don’t use your clothes iron. And you know I don’t.
“No, after listening to them you would still need to go and do the research. Whereas if you just did the research, you'd have the information you want more quickly than if you stopped to listen to them.”
But what if their perspective was knew to me? There are many people in Germany who would be unlikely to have heard an anti-smoking perspective if not for Hitler.
“Yeah, it did. A stuck clock is correct twice a day, that doesn't mean that you should consult it to find out what time it is. Because even if it's correct, you'd still need a reliable clock to tell you the stuck clock works.”
That’s a clock. You know it will be correct at least twice a day, but if it isn’t working you know it will be wrong at all other times. A human is not a clock. A human could be correct many times, even if they can’t be trusted. Hitler was right about a number of things, but I wouldn’t trust him to run a country.
I don't know for sure what you know or how you know it. I just know that you might very well be correct if you gave an answer to the question "is my iron on?"
Similarly, you don't know what basis Hitler had for being anti-smoking. Maybe some Germans hadn't heard his perspectives on anti-semitism, either. So they hear he's antismoking and antisemitic. According to you, one of those is an observation that gives them some additional knowledge or benefit. The other is wrong. But they have no idea which one is wrong, just that hitler said it. So they need to look for unbiased sources, of which hitler is not one because he is untrustworthy.
They would do better to just generate a list of random items or people, and randomly assign "pro" or "anti" to each one. Then go and check it out themselves, rather than asking hitler.
New perspectives aren't of value if they are just a list of crap that has a 50:50 chance of being useful. But if you know the source is trustworthy, they might be worth listening to. Some people are more reliable than a stopped clock, others are as reliable as an unplugged digital clock. Either way, you never know whether an unreliable person or and unreliable clock is correct unless you check with a third party. So why bother with the intermediary.
“I don't know for sure what you know or how you know it.”
Yes, you do. Because you know I don’t live in your house. You know I haven’t been in your house. You have no reason to even pose the question to me.
“Similarly, you don't know what basis Hitler had for being anti-smoking.”
Yes, we do. It was initially because he considered it a waste of money.
“According to you, one of those is an observation that gives them some additional knowledge or benefit.”
No, Hitler’s anti-smoking campaign may have stimulated some to do more research about something they previously hadn’t considered. Which is an illustration of why it is silly to dismiss everything someone says without due consideration simply because you don’t trust them.
“New perspectives aren't of value if they are just a list of crap that has a 50:50 chance of being useful.”
Which you will never be able to establish if you refuse to even listen to someone you don’t trust.
“So why bother with the intermediary.”
Because the first you might hear of the matter is via the intermediary. Like some German citizens in the 1930’s.
I don't know whether you've hacked my web security cam to see my iron, nor do I know whether hitler's idea of a waste of money is at all valid.
So now you're adding supporting information that is based on the source for the primary information. It's circular: X perspective on Y is valid because Z (according to X). Which is infinitely recursive: before I know X perspective on Y is true, I need to know X perspective on Z is true, but I only have X's reasoning for that, so now I need to know whether X's reasoning for Z is useful before I know their reas ning for their perspective on Y is useful.
Sooner or later, I need to find out if Y is good or bad by referring to someone more reliable than X.
So you might as well ignore X and go straight to that someone else.
"…nor do I know whether hitler's idea of a waste of money is at all valid."
But having heard it, you can now investigate it. If you hadn't listened, you wouldn't have a clue.
"So now you're adding supporting information that is based on the source for the primary information."
No, you raised that when you talked about an intermediary.
"So you might as well ignore X and go straight to that someone else."
See – you just did it again. You admitted above you didn't know whether Hitler's idea of a waste of money was valid or not, but now you do. You can't go to 'that someone else' if you haven't listened to the idea in the first place.
Which sounds reasonable until we consider that the argument applies to everything hitler was wrong about, too. And also applies to literally everything said by every nutbar on the planet. Was hitler the only guy who had an opinion on smoking or had an idea about what constitutes a waste of money? Hell no. Millions of other people also had opinions and ideas. He killed many of them, but before he did so we would be wise to consider their opinions.
So we're stuck in an infinite loop of considering ideas from everyone, and that gets in the way of actually coming to a decision. So we need to filter our sources of perspectives and opinions. Arguing with fools recreationally can be entertaining, but the supply of meaningful information is strictly limited. If I actually need to consider an issue in a timely manner, the list of participants I might seek out for a discussion drops dramatically.
“Which sounds reasonable until we consider that the argument applies to everything hitler was wrong about, too.”
No, it sounds reasonable, full stop. Because my point is to not judge someone by all the stuff they say we don’t agree with, but to grant them the possibility they may say something worthwhile. Even just once.
So we’re stuck in an infinite loop of considering ideas from everyone…”
Everyone? No I never suggested that. I just dismissed the idea of rejecting everything someone says simply because you don’t trust them. It’s a very reasonable position.
“…and that gets in the way of actually coming to a decision.”
You aren’t listening. It cannot get in the way if we are being introduced to ideas for the first time. Actually on second thoughts you are listening, you’re just avoiding answering to that particular point.
The internet is full of people receiving new ideas for the first time without considering the validity of the source.
Doesn't seem to be going all that well – it seems that for every instance where that is a new and useful fact for the receiver, there are dozens who end up getting scalds while steaming their vagina, or who shoot up a classroom because they don't feel they get enough sex, or decide that even though they can afford and have access to the best healthcare in the world they'd better avoid vaccines like the plague.
"Doesn't seem to be going all that well…"
…and then you contradict yourself…
"…it seems that for every instance where that is a new and useful fact for the receiver, there are dozens who end up getting scalds while steaming their vagina…"
So there are new and useful facts. Therefore it is churlish to dismiss everything without at least some research.
Well done.
No obligation like democracy or any of that. Yeh we know about Nact.
They have no obligation because the referendum is based on legislation they have not drafted. Simple.
Were past referendums based on drafted legislation?
Not sure. But under the current law, none are binding.
According to the esteemed and learned Professor Geddis, the 1993 referendum for MMP was a thumbs up/thumbs down for already written legislation.
Geddis agrees with you that there is no such thing as a binding referendum in current New Zealand law; Parliament can always do whatever the fuck it wants to, subject only to the constraint of getting a majority of MPs.
Thanks Andre.
"…the vote for MMP automatically brought the Electoral Act 1993 into force."
As I understand it, that's how the Greens wanted the cannabis referendum to work.
Yeah.
But I can't really blame Labour and WinstonFirst MPs for not wanting to vote on it beforehand. It's the kind of topic where staking out an actual position is only going to lose them votes, it won't ever actually gain them any.
Rubbish.
People know that it would be a case of voting on a bill that would require majority voter support before it actually passed into law.
Their position has already largely been staked out.
I don't see the issue. If stoners want to get weed legalised they'll have to go and vote yes in the referendum and then for labour or the greens for the election win.
Three ticks, that's all it will take.
Minor technical quibble, that's all.
My snark was kinda more prompted by those like No Right Turn making out it was some kind of nefarious troughing scheme dreamed up by Lab/Grn troughers that needed to be punished by not voting for them. Or something.
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-fix.html
I hear you, though even if it were part of a vote getting plan for 2020, which it still might by, so what? It's politics, not tiddlywinks, and even then it's a lot cheaper than buying votes by funding promises with tax dollars.
I would suspect a lot of the missing million dabble with pot, so you never know, maybe it might just work this time lol
Really?
Do you require me to lay it out?
Yeah, yeah, I know already – The greens did it and labour let them 🙄
Here's the kicker
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112525322/explainer-the-cannabis-referendum-and-why-it-isnt-binding
I'd love to see Simon on the cones – might make him more articulate and coherent!
Obviously the Nats' views on cannabis law reform are 'no reform at all'.
Why does the supposed party of "personal responsibility and keeping the government out of people's lives" feel the need to poke their noses into what grown consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own lounges and bedrooms?
Regarding cannabis – We need to worry about smoking green house chemicals now.
See here where many of the (140) chemicals are climate changing components sadly. Alkanes and terpenes are 'climate changing green house gases' sadly.
https://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Chemical-constituents-of-cannabis.pdf
These are just a few of the known green house gases.
These are just a few of known green house chemicals.
Noncannabinoid-Type Constituents 1.2.1. Terpenoids The typical scent of Cannabis results from about 140 different terpenoids. Isoprene units (C5H8) form monoterpenoids (C10 skeleton), sesquiterpenoids (C15), diterpenoids (C20), and triterpenoids (C30; see Table 2). Terpenoids may be acyclic, monocyclic, or polycyclic hydrocarbons with substitution patterns including alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, ketones, and esters.
Would it be better to vape and avoid combustion?
Also, bear in mind that the plant soaked up CO2 when it was growing.
"Also, bear in mind that the plant soaked up CO2 when it was growing."
There's this phrase, de minimis
I agree it's a trivial point, but vast fields of hemp would be a less trivial carbon sink.
Grow'em but don't smoke'em?
Sure, hemp as far as the eye can see would be something wonderful (I'd interplant, but then that's me). If we can then get those plants; their stalks at least, into the soil, we'd be getting somewhere good; carbon lying where it should lie; six inches deep 🙂
Yep.
I was thinking more of making textiles with them, and clothing, and all the other things that can be made from hemp.
I too would interplant.
I'm sure.
Robert & Ken, you are missing my point here,
Vaping will allow the release of those VOC's also that are clearly known as "green house" chemicals, so we are actually increasing further emissions into the atmosphere of climatic changing green house chemicals.
https://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Chemical-constituents-of-cannabis.pdf
1.2.2. Hydrocarbons
The 50 known hydrocarbons detected in Cannabis consist of n-alkanes ranging from C9 to C39, 2-methyl-, 3-methyl-, and some dimethyl alkanes (10,35). The
major alkane present in an essential oil obtained by extraction and steam distillation was the n-C29 alkane nonacosane (55.8 and 10.7%, respectively). Other abundant alkanes were heptacosane, 2,6-dimethyltetradecane, pentacosane, hexacosane,
and hentriacontane.
I was not actually discussing the effects to the inhaling of the chemicals but the emissions into our atmosphere..
I may have taken your words the wrong way, cleangreen. I meant that the emissions to the atmosphere from smoking/vaping cannabis was an issue de minimis.
Not much though eh?
How would all the weed smoking and vaping emissions compare to one decent bonfire?
That's what I'm thinking, Ken, but we may be missing something…
As someone who proposed this sort of policy back in 1999 to the Health Select Committee, about time.
Still think Ecstasy or MDMA should be legal and thus in its proper form not some synthetic shit out of China called Molly. Safer than alcohol and cannabis in its proper form. Classifying it as Class A alongside Meth is batshit stupid.
Invest in a roll out of mental health and drug rehab services as we do medical practices, with the money saved on drug crime (you'd have to have mental health issues to use Meth and certainly need the drug rehab once you do).
The one problem with decriminalisation/legalisation is possible overuse. With alcohol we have licensed venue responsibility and driver checks – but given there are already many workplaces with drug testing this is somewhat covered already. It maybe just a matter of updating license revoking for driving under the influence of more than alcohol.
Very few of the illegal drugs, if pure and used in known dosages, are dangerous.