Written By:
mickysavage - Date published:
1:53 pm, September 6th, 2021 - 81 comments
Categories: act, covid-19, david seymour, health, Maori Issues -
Tags:
The Government is rightfully concerned about the take up of Covid vaccines by Maori.
Recent figures suggest that in the previous week during a surge in vaccinations one in seven kiwis received a jab. But for Maori the figure was one in 11. The reason is set out in this article published by Stuff:
Te Rōpū Whakakaupapa Urutā co-leader Rawiri Jansen said such figures were entirely predictable as the vaccination rollout was never set up with Māori in mind.
“It works pretty good actually if you’ve got a nice big smartphone with a data plan. And it works really well when all these messages coming at us about when to get vaccinated and who’s eligible, and all of that complexity makes sense to you and the messages resonate.
“It probably works really well if you’re one of the workers who’s able to work from home, so you’re not an essential worker in grocery, stacking shelves. But your job has you at home so you can use that laptop and that data plan, and you can navigate the booking system and make a booking.
“You might even have a car with a warrant and gas in the tank, and you can actually drive to a centre. So you can look for a booking that’s available and on the day you’re good to go and get it done. Now if you don’t have those things, it’s hard.”
To address this the Government has released a special booking code for Maori Whanau out West Auckland to try and address the imbalance and to also take up some extra current capacity.
And what should the leader of a major political party, someone charged with taking a responsible attitude to the crisis do? How many guessed publishing the code?
That is what has happened. David Seymour tweeted out screenshots of an email containing the code to all and sundry.
He is currently getting roasted on Twitter. What point was he trying to make? That Maori were receiving preferential treatment even though their vaccination rate is very slow and a threat to us all. Let’s not mince words. None of us are safe until we all, or a huge number of us, are vaccinated.
Debbie Ngarewa-Packer from the Maori Party has not held back and described this as cruel low level scum politiking.
She is right. This is cheap tawdry politics. Why am I not surprised that Seymour is involved?
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Seymour is representing ideas that are an anathema to the greater percentage of us. He presents the "acceptable" face of unacceptable ideas. He is using Key's style.
Given one of the major factor in risk around death or serious complications with Covid-19 is age and that Maori have higher full vaccinations rates in the at risk age brackets (over the age of 50) than NZ European can you explain how his views on focusing on ethnicity is unacceptable?
OK…so I downloaded the current NZ vaccine data from here. (spreadsheet link near bottom of page, was up to date to 31 August when I downloaded it today)
Then I added up first or second doses in people aged over the age of 50 and divided by the total population of each cohort for a) Maori and b) Europeans / other.
This is what I got:
1st Dose Maori = 67.0%
1st Dose European / Other = 77.4%
2nd Dose Maori = 46.0%
2nd Dose European / Other = 49.9%
Looks like Gosman is wrong. Where did you get your 'facts'?
The goose might be looking at the brightly coloured table partway down that page.
(I'm kinda suspicious there might be errors in that table: when they show an average number for "all ages" that is lower than every single age group number going into that average, I'm wary. Maybe they're including under-12s in the "all ages"?)
You mean the graph with the "Groups"? I've made a comment below….
No, the table with green, yellow and red backgrounds about halfway back up to the start of the page from where the goose's link (comment 9) opens.
It purportedly shows vaccination rates for Maori and Pasifika split out by age group, DHB, and first and second dose.
It appears to show that for 65+ Maori, vaccination rates are quite similar to NZ European, and for 50 to 64, Maori vaccination rates are only a little bit behind.
Got it. Maori are closer in older groups compared to younger groups, but still well behind on average above 50 years old (and not more vaccinated, as Gosman states).
Of course the much lower rates in young Maori place older Maori at greater risk regardless, assuming they are in close proximity to young family members.
Sounds like a Simpsons Paradox.
Gosman Maori Pacifica and Asian are all at higher risk from Covid 19 .With these cohorts succumbing to the worst effects 10 years younger.
The one Delta death (so far) was māori.
A tragedy, not a statistic.
how many people have committed suicide during lockdowns?
[corrected typo in user name]
"Coronavirus: Suicide rates went down during lockdown in NZ, Australia, other countries – study" – Newshub, 14/04/2021
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/04/coronavirus-suicide-rates-went-down-during-lockdown-in-nz-australia-other-countries-study.html
Well said Frank
Signalling to his alt right base like Lee Williams. what a fwit. Rawiri Waititi is pretty scathing
Vile stuff, even for him. Effectively sabotaging efforts to help Maori. Its straight out of Trumps playbook.
This will come back to bite him.
Have you bothered to look at the vaccination rates among Maori and NZ Europeans in the most vulnerable age groups?
Doesn't seem like you have…
Refer you to this post from above:
https://thestandard.org.nz/seymour-undermines-vaccine-roll-out-for-maori/#comment-1813992
Happy to have helped.
[link edited to make it appear in full and functional]
Dick move, which I'd consider wagering a small sum he'll compound by claiming he was speaking to his Maori followers, but kinda forgot to mention. (unless it's that emotional staffer again)
What a creep.
Someone needs to tell him he doesn't need to out scumbag National to get ahead.
Seymour is all mouth and trousers and just loves the sound of his own voice
Oh no – did David say the quiet bit out loud? The psychopathologies of the far right are so unsurprising.
The actual data suggests that in the demographics with the highest risk of serious complications or death from Covid-19 (i.e. 50 years and over) Maori have vaccinations rates at or even above NZ Europeans. It is in the lower age brackets where they fall behind especially in the 12-29 age group. Given the younger average age of Maori in NZ that will bring the rate down for Maori as a whole. As we are looking to protect the most vulnerable segment of our society first focusing on ethnicity rather than age specific groupings seems likely to increase rather than decrease risk of harm.
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#group
Jeez Gosman you'll get banned for posting facts like that…
Perhaps muppets like Billy TK and Hannah Tamaki have had a greater influence amongst younger Maori?
Basically, Seymour was a complete dickhead. Your wanking on irrelevancies and ignoring the obvious rejoinders is in my opinion just simply objectionable.
You could just as easily argue that all other possible correlations should be ignored as well. Diabetes, weight, asthma, heart disease, smoking, disabilities etc etc should also be ignored as
Using that tactic, as well as being weak intellectually, is hypocritical. You can use exactly the same tactic to argue against anything you like. Just keep moving the health outcomes for purely ideological reasons other than simple health statistics.
There is a high correlation with bad health outcomes for Maori as a population in every epidemic we have had in NZ since 1830. Just as there is with any island population with a high separation from the global diseases that live mostly in Eurasian populations.
Just as there is a correlation of inordinate level of skin cancers in Northern Europeans populations in sunnier climates than their ancestors – yet curiously I don't see you arguing against discrimination in favour of preferential testing in that ethnic group. Or that the incidence of breast cancer in females far exceeds that in males (yes XY can get breast cancer as well) – but I don't see you worrying about that.
Health systems generally don't look for the ideological underpinnings of a correlation when looking for what to test or treat – they look at statistical correlations first and foremost. Sometimes they may find
There is a reason why you are the only person on this site who has a hypocrisy rule named after them. Now I think that you appear to be a racist bigot for ideological reasons as well.. It appears that David Seymour is an irresponsible bigot as well – for ideological reasons – or probably just because it allows his party to turn out the racist bigot vote.
I think I'll just run with the latter assumption.
I presume you have done the analysis on this have you? What is the comparative risk of death or serious health complications as a result of Covid-19 with a 50 year old versus a 20 year old?
Of course I have. It sounds like you are back in the dark ages (pretty typical behaviour from a ACT supporter). Delta completely changed the the relative hospitalisation rates on age groups – they are much more even across the groups. This isn't the original covid-19, alpha or beta.
With Delta, children and people under the age of 50 have close to a double probability of hospitalisation compared to their probability in previous waves.
All of the current infections are delta, even when you account for vaccinations by age groups.
And that still doesn't factor in the other contributing factors correlated like ethnicity, and previous condition. ie the ones you and David Seymour appear to want to ignore for some racist ideological or bigotry or voting point. If you are Maori or Polynesian in NZ, the probability of requiring hospitalisation is still a lot higher than for Europeans or Asians with an ancestry in the Eurasian continent.
So have you looked at the relative statistics for infections, hospitalisations, long-covid, or death for Maori, Polynesion, diabetics, smokers, etc with delta. Or are you just pulling irrelevant arguments out of your arse as usual?
I see that Incognito even put up a link explaining that for you.
Studies done on the matter suggest the higher hospitalisation and death rates among younger people are related to the fact they are less likely to be be vaccinated than the older demographic groups.
"
Both men said not only are they seeing a shift in the age of their COVID patients, but they are also seeing significantly fewer deaths among the elderly population. Both believe that's clearly tied to the state's very high vaccination rates among its elderly population.
"So we're seeing fewer deaths, and there have been a few deaths of folks that are vaccinated in those age groups — but they have other conditions," Balcezak said. "They have heart failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or other conditions that are contributing an added burden of disease. And add COVID on top of the burden that they're already carrying, and it just tips them over."
Kumar said he has no doubts that vaccines have saved the elderly population from the devastation of the delta variant."
Which ultimately highlights why focusing on age demographics and comorbidities rather than something as blunt as ethnicity is the best approach to rolling out vaccinations.
https://ctmirror.org/2021/08/10/covid-hospitalizations-skew-younger-as-delta-variant-spreads-in-ct/
Also irrelevant.
Deaths aren't the primary public health issue and certainly shouldn't be used in arguments . I have no idea why people concentrate on that.
Hospitalisations and long-covid reactions are – that is what chews the resources and overloads the health system to the breaking points. Deaths in our health system are just the fail point of hospitalisations. If the hospitalisations increase, then eventually they will strain the system to increase morbidity.
That is why every statement about the objectives of the covid-19 epidemic campaigns is about reducing the effects on the health system – not about deaths (although that would be desirable as well).
As I commented elsewhere, you have a habit of being a hypocrite about what data you choose to look at – just like ACT does.
Here you are, Gosman: https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/maori-and-pacific-people-in-new-zealand-have-a-higher-risk-of-hospitalisation-for-covid-19-open-access
Your buddy David and you are just plain wrong about this. I cannot explain this as plausible but only as wilful denial, given the data to the contrary of your [plural] misleading communications.
That mainly deals with Pasifika not Maori and the associated data highlights that it is the Pasifika community that should be the main target not Maori if we are using ethnicity to decide who is targeted for vaccination.
I’ve said it twice now: wilful denial. You are doing nothing but trolling, just as David Seymour is doing.
You know what, I’ll let you dig your hole deeper for a while so that everybody can see what is going on here; they can learn about David Seymour by studying you here in full gory.
Hint: you have clearly misrepresented the paper and the Authors’ conclusions. You have twisted reality to conform to your narrative of anti-Māori propaganda.
I shoved him on to a temporary moderation. I have better things to do than to deal with a Gosman trolling storm where he doesn’t try to argue – he just writes hypocritical bullshit with bullshit links.
I’ll let anything through that contains an argument or a link that pertains to correlations with Maori ethnicity vs the general population or explains ACT or David Seymour’s purpose in this political act. Which is the topic of the post.
But I will batch check the moderation queue when I have time to do it.
He’s gobsmacked.
In your rather transparent attempt to deflect you overlooked the simple fact that both Māori and Pacific people have substantially higher risk of hospitalisation for COVID-19, when adjusted for age. In other words, ethnicity is an important factor and one that needs to be addressed, in contrast and exact opposite to the propaganda masquerading as reckons from David Seymour and you.
Unbelievable that you ignore or downplay the dominant factor, which is ethnicity, especially Māori, not age. In fact, your incorrect and erroneous conclusion would put others at higher risk than they are already. It is this kind of attitude and ‘thinking’ that is perpetuating engrained racism and discrimination in society and consequently, inequity with all its perverse outcomes.
Do you have evidence for ethnicity playing the key role in death or serious health issues versus age or pre-existing health issues?
Here is data in relation to the comparative risks based on age from the CDC. Note people over the age of 50 to 64 are 35 times more likely than those in their 20's to die from the disease and 4 times more likely to get hospialised.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html
In another reply to you, I’ve provided a link to a scientific paper in a peer-reviewed NZ journal by NZ authors on the exact topic of this thread, i.e., the NZ situation. It and other data and studies show clearly that David Seymour and you are in wilful denial of the situation in NZ. Ignorance is no excuse but you have gone so much lower already. There is no way that a semi-intelligent person can deny study upon study upon report upon review, et cetera, unless they have an agenda. I don’t like your agenda, not one bit …
FFS – don't you read those papers? Or are you incapable of thinking? Even your example is out of date as your thinking.
Look at the dates. "From March 1, 2020 through July 3, 2021, accessed on July 12, 2021"
Delta only started in the US about the start of July. By the end of the July it was roughly 80% of cases. So the delta content in a study that lasted for about 18 months was probably less than 2%. How about trying to live in the present rather than in a mythical past with the rest of ACT?
It also had a completely different age profile for hospitalisations. This has been extensively reported and I have seen a few papers on it as well..
Age is a co-factor – it isn't the whole risk profile like you and that other numb-witted bigot David Seymour seem to think.
The idea that ethnicity contributes to disparate health outcomes is uncontroversial, but some downplay that contribution and 'poo poo' the idea that those disparities stem from structural/institutional racism/discrimination – what motivates them?
Nope, that link doesn't show what you are saying. If you actually download the spreadsheet that explains what the "Groups" are in the graph you link to, it tells you what they are, and none have ANYTHING TO DO WITH ETHNICITY.
The graph specifically says the definitions are in the spreadsheet…why are you making stuff up?
At a glance, on every metric Maori are behind the curve for vaccination.
Download the underlying dataset. There is a tab with ethnicity data.
You mean the tab that shows that your statement at 1.1 "Maori have higher full vaccinations rates in the at risk age brackets (over the age of 50) than NZ European" is a made up lie?
That tab?
Yes he is blowing the "preferential treatment" dog-whistle. Yes, he is vile. Yes, his adherents (*tūtae to a blanket) will be thrilling to his truthin'.
It doesn't matter, he'll be doing it to appeal to his ignorant and other racist supporters. They'll think he's more of a hero for his statements and attitude.
When you mention ignorant do you know what the comparative vaccination rates among Maori and NZ Europeans are in the most vulnerable age brackets or are you making comments from a position of ignorance?
Older vaccinated people are still at higher risk when they live with and/or have a lot of contact with younger unvaccinated people. This extra vulnerability gets reduced when those younger people they live with get vaccinated.
I'm under the impression older Maori in general are more likely to live with and/or have a lot of contact with younger people. So there's a good public health reason to prioritise those younger high-frequency contacts as well.
If you are under the impression that is the case perhaps you could produce some data to support your view.
[lprent: Perhaps before you should ask others to produce data, you should produce some relevant current data to support your view. So far you have managed to only produce historical data that ignores the current delta epidemic. This is not a request. Temporary moderation to review your trolling before you proceed to overtype comments. ]
If I was under the impression you were here in good faith, rather than trying to waste everyone's time by being an obnoxious troll, I might be bothered.
But you're not worth it.
Good point Andre. Gosman is not worth time
Seymour is asking people to lie. Oh so very ethical and honest
An Author or commenter posts data that cause Gosman inconvenience and possibly even discomfort. His response: keep asking for more data, more details, and try to drown the others in an ocean of requests for more data of increasing futility. Wear them down, wear them out, is the MO. Some Parties use the same trick with OIA requests and in Parliament AKA filibustering. It is not constructive because the intention is to slow down, stall, and even block the system from performing effectively and efficiently. AFAIK, it is a preferred tactic of the Right because of their idiosyncratic and ideological contempt for the State apparatus.
Hi Gosman. Seymour has done some good work in recent times, but he's got this wrong. Maori are being assisted here not because they are a 'racial' demographic but because they are an 'at risk' demographic with vaccination rates that are lagging behind other demographics.
I haven't checked numbers or other data around vaccinations today.
My comment clearly wasn't about the data but about the politicking of Seymour. Of course I am not making comments from a position of ignorance, I know he has ignorant and other racist supporters. I know, along within everyone else, that he plays a glib game to appeal to them.
Given that Maori live in larger family groups in poorer housing conditions with less chance of isolating any individuals who contract Delta variant.
We need to protect whole extended families not just one age group .Even with vaccination it does not give 100% prevention of contracting covid Delta as we have seen with different ethnicities they have different family structures if we don't we will not be able to eradicate or live with Delta.
If we do end up in a nsw situation elective surgery and other access to hospital and healthcare would seriously decline so flow on effects to the rest of the community would be serious. Then Seymour would be blaming ethnicities for not having high enough rates of vaccinations..
Gosman you need some deradicliization treatment you could start with some ivermectin it may stop the BS that you try to worm into your threads.
The only area Maori are getting vaccinated at a higher rate or equal is 50 to 64 in your link but that doesn't allow for the fact that Maori are more susceptible to Covid suffering serious illness at 10 years younger than European so as usual you only tell 1/2 truths.
As for David Seymour has never lived in the real world he has gone from being an Groupie to a corporate yes man he knows his bread is buttered on both sides for pushing out lies for his master.
I used cycle home past his student flat on a regular basis the only thing going on their was loud obnoxious mysoginistic alcohol filled bravado no study. he was stuck down a rabbit hole then now it's a rabid hole.
Shoddy play consistent with the moral and intellectual deficit that characterises ACT. We should look into a red card system for MPs that disgrace themselves.
We all get to play that card again in 2023.
A shoutout to all those Maori health workers at Te Whanau Waipereira, who have been one of the most important vaccinators across Auckland's north and west (I never thought I'd say that about the contractarian state).
Thankyou for your work keeping us safe and healthy.
I'll finally be getting my first shot with them tomorrow morning.
Yes. Great news Ad.
I understand why Maori are getting this service but tonight when average kiwis of all ethnicities and ages watch the news a lot of them won't understand. My Maori friends and family don't understand why people can't organize an appointment like everyone else.
I'd say just ignore this otherwise we risk giving him free air time and publicity for something that s huge number of lefty's who believe in universalism and despise what they see as preferential treatment seeing that he's done this and liking that he's done it.
The grumpy lefty vote that swings between labour and nzfs populist universalism have nowhere to go at the moment and this is something a young Winston would have done, there's a lot of young people on the left and weirdly a lot of Maori who find it quite funny.
So as gross as it is don't give him the attention he wants, don't feed the troll or up will go his polls.
Yes, as Barfly said DNFTT.
The problem is that
I don't understand WTF is wrong with the Right wing in western politics. Trump has turned them all into anti-democratic, anti-science saboteurs who rely on propaganda and stirring racial division.
They're worried about the demographic changes that are threatening their ideas of values & economic dominance. Divide & conquer. Classic Trump.
Trump demonstrated how far belligerence can move the dial.
The right already had the anti (science, climate change) tendancy combined with DP, dog whistling and 'my expert opinionator' MO long before the Donald.
There used to be principled conservatives who believed in democracy and the rule of law. But the Right has been colonised by reactionary populists
Chippie said it best.
https://twitter.com/antihobbes/status/1432538410154008581
Look on the bright side – even some Seymour supporters will see this as unacceptable and ditch him, perhaps even a significant number it's so despicable. He’s given many possibly a first-time glimpse of his true self.
No point crying over it.
This act has created thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of publicity for this vaccine program.
Will it be used to get more people vacinated or not?
Because Seymour and his supporters will not care, in fact for them the publicity will only encorage more people to their cause. (Barbara Streisand effect).
A good graph. (via David Slack)
Definition of a human weed: someone who is thin and physically weak or who is weak in character.
Definition of a garden weed: a wild plant growing where it is not wanted and in competition with cultivated plants.
We know what to do with garden weeds. Throw them in a rubbish bag. Maybe we need to do the same with this human weed.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300400571/covid19-nz-lowlife-move–david-seymour-under-fire-for-tweeting-out-mori-vaccine-access-code
Tova nails it.
https://www.twitter.com/TovaOBrien/status/1434704256947265542
Urban Dictionary – Cockwomble: (noun) A person, usually male, prone to making outrageously stupid statements and/or inappropriate behaviour while generally having a very high opinion of their own wisdom and importance.
Synonyms: fuckwit, shit-for-brains.
cock is an innocent word. womble refers to imaginary cute creatures.
seymour is neither innocent or cute.
Looking forward to Tova Obrien interviewing the hollow man / hologram.
He's refusing to go on The Hui & face Mahirangi Forbes.
Doesn’t surprise me given that he’s not willing to ensure their safety and wellbeing.
That doesn't surprise me from 'spray and walk away' Seymour.
Gutless. Forbes would use him as a floor mop so he'll avoid that.
🤣 Exactly!
https://twitter.com/MarkGraham_Akl/status/1435098666096750598?s=20
"Equity" reminded me of this Rawiri Jansen piece I read in the Spinoff earlier today:
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/07-09-2021/kia-ora-david-seymour-lets-talk-about-maori-health-and-vaccination/
Which ties in with this Tamihere quote (hat-tip for link to Anne – somewhere upthread):
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300400571/covid19-nz-lowlife-move–david-seymour-under-fire-for-tweeting-out-mori-vaccine-access-code