The Mandate To Say Goodbye

Written By: - Date published: 8:38 am, November 17th, 2021 - 210 comments
Categories: covid-19, education, health, human rights, religion, uncategorized - Tags:

Amana Christian School Principal Roslyn King, unvaccinated, as of yesterday cannot enter the grounds of her school.

The school has lost two of their four staff and the Principal claims it is one of the darkest days in New Zealand education.

There are many such stories rippling through the media at the moment.

The latest 1 News Colmar Brunton Poll showed 74% of those polled supported mandates now in place for teachers, healthcare workers and port, border and prison workers.

Twenty percent were opposed and 6% did not know.

In the next two weeks we will find out how many teachers in New Zealand are immune to facts, were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves, and after decades enforcing state rules in daily attendance and behaviours of young people at school could not themselves be subject to that same force of state.

Will there be any disproportionality of those walking away from teaching due to the vaccine mandate who are evangelical Christians or any other Integrated School minority? They’re due for a scorch if there is.

Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do.

For those who practise ignorance and pedagogical corruption, it is indeed one of their darkest days. They will join the ranks of those finding something else to do.

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

For teachers and school management who stay and are vaccinated, they are more than ever illuminated as more than teachers: they are rebuilding this damaged society.

Our entire education system from daycare to doctorate has been upended by COVID and ours has been responding well, though the disruption remains bewildering.

For those school students being taught, and for the school system itself, teachers walking out due to the vaccine mandate will become one of New Zealand educations’ quickest renewal programmes yet seen.

Goodbye Roslyn.

210 comments on “The Mandate To Say Goodbye ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Visubversa 1
    17 November 2021 at 9:05 am

    Teachers who think "Jesus is my vaccine" should not be within a bull's roar of a classroom.

    • weka 1.1
      17 November 2021 at 9:59 am

      People who think vaccine is my Jesus are in for a sharp wake up in the coming years as the realities of the limits of vaccination become apparent. Yes, yes, it's the best tool we have, but it's not the only one, and too many people are putting all our eggs on one basket.

      Best we tread a middle path, the argument is over where that lies.

      • Phil 1.1.1
        17 November 2021 at 10:04 am

        People who think vaccine is my Jesus

        Nobody thinks that.

        • weka 1.1.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 10:07 am

          yes they do. There are people who very strongly believe in vaccines and science in a similar way that other people believe in god. One true way. And I've had the arguments here on TS with people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism. Nothing wrong with it, per se just be honest, and then let's have the conversation about the limits of that view.

          How many people in NZ are preaching this atm? Not many.

          https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1460689834939322369

          • weka 1.1.1.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 10:11 am

            to keep this on topic with the post, we should be talking a lot, right now, about additional ways to limit spread in schools.

            we also should be talking about what the people without income are going to end up doing to pay rent and eat. Ad can write them off as immune to facts, but the post itself is kind of evangelical (that's not a slur btw). Teachers as the new illuminated ones because we've cast the sinners out.

          • Sanctuary 1.1.1.1.2
            17 November 2021 at 10:24 am

            What is your view on vaccine mandates and your vaccine status Weka? Because this statement –

            "…people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism…"

            is complete pile of steaming horseshit. Science is a method of inquiry, not a point of view – the very opposite of fundamentalism. So let's do some science. According to Our World in Data 7.54 BILLION doses of the vaccine have been administered worldwide.

            https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_WRL

            The number of people worldwide who have harmed by the vaccine is so small anti-vaxxers are having trouble finding any. To me, the statement that vaccines are safe and do no harm is obvious from the real world numbers.

            I don't give a brass razoo for your opinion, but facts matter.

            And for the record, I am fully vaccinated and will soon get my six month booster, and I would support an Austrian style lockdown of the unvaxxed if I had my way.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.2.1
              17 November 2021 at 10:37 am

              I support the vaccine programme, I think it's going to give NZ the best chance of not becoming a shit show like the UK, we are very lucky in our timing. I've got mixed feelings about the mandates. I think they're necessary, but I also think we could be using more tools that would ease the impact of that. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I'm concerned that we are digging in deep divisions, these will be long term and cause other problems.

              To me, the statement that vaccines are safe and do no harm is obvious from the real world numbers.

              Sure, you choose to frame it like this but it's not actually true to say they do no harm. Some people are harmed. Why not be honest about it.

              As for the real world numbers, please show me the research on post-vaccine flare and relapse rates for the many auto immune and other chronic illness conditions where people's real world lives are being impacted. Afaik people with AI conditions were largely excluded from the vaccine trials, so there is not a lot of data on that, and while there is increasing attention being given to the impact on them, it's still not the kind of real world numbers that you are putting your faith in.

              And that right there is the nub of it. You've used google for confirmation bias. I've spent the past 6 months listening to people, various disease associations, and doctors who treat those people. We know there are issues, but the faith in vaccine people are in denial and run lines of safe/no harm and engage in the kind of debate that suppresses discussion.

              Nothing I have said here is anti-vax, but as soon as I start talking about this, it's like all people can do is say 'but the vaccine is safer!!!'. Well duh, of course it is, but safer =/= safe/no harm. People with disabilities need really good science to help them cope with the impacts (and yes, in some cases, avoid the impacts) and this blind faith in the vaccine as Good and True actually harms us. In the real world.

              • weka …
                17 November 2021 at 10:38 am

                and please spare me the binary response. I'm sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity. That you took my previous comment to be an anti-vax position is all about your thinking, not mine.

                • Sanctuary …
                  17 November 2021 at 10:44 am

                  Things are pretty damn binary all right. Death is a pretty binary state with life. There is no "…sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity." That statement is arrant nonsense. There is get vaxxed and don't be a useless mantlepiece ornament but instead pull your weight in a national crisis.

                  • Gypsy …
                    17 November 2021 at 12:06 pm

                    People die of all sorts of things, and we don't promote the level of hysteria we do around Covid. I'm pro vaxx and double vaxxed, but if you think going all chicken little is actually productive, you're contributing more heat than light.

                    • KJT …
                      18 November 2021 at 6:08 pm

                      "I'm pro vacc and double vacced".

                      So. "I'm all right and fuck the kid down the road with asthma who ends up in ED every time they have a cold". Interfering with my "freedom". "Lets not go all chicken little".

                      That atitude fucks me off as much as the lying from anti-vaccers.

                  • weka …
                    17 November 2021 at 9:44 pm

                    Things are pretty damn binary all right. Death is a pretty binary state with life. There is no "…sitting outside the vax is god/anti-vax polarity." That statement is arrant nonsense. There is get vaxxed and don't be a useless mantlepiece ornament but instead pull your weight in a national crisis.

                    And that is your philosophical belief. You see things in black and white, and there's no room for the greyzone of disabled people's needs. They can safely be ignored, right?

                • weka …
                  17 November 2021 at 9:40 pm

                  meanwhile, actual clinicians are reporting flares.

                  https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/10/1352

                  I suggest you click through on your link and look at the research.

                  Do you know what this is saying? https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/Suppl_1/200

                  The second research in your link says,

                  Disease flares were reported by 5% (73/1375) of patients with inflammatory RMDs, with 1.2% (17/1375) classified as severe flares.

                  https://ard.bmj.com/content/80/Suppl_1/199.abstract

                  Shall we just pretend they don't exist?

                  • roblogic …
                    18 November 2021 at 5:29 pm

                    Remember to include "what if I catch Covid" in your risk assessment.

                    • weka …
                      19 November 2021 at 2:17 pm

                      of course, but as you can tell I'm getting sick of the binary thinkers going 'oh but you will get covid if you don't vax, so never mind the relapse'. So please stop saying that stuff to me.

                  • KJT …
                    18 November 2021 at 5:40 pm

                    "Conclusion: The safety profiles for COVID-19 vaccines in RMD patients was reassuring. Most adverse events were the same as in the general population, they were non-serious and involved short term local and systemic symptoms. The overwhelming majority of patients tolerated their vaccination well with rare reports of inflammatory RMD flare (5%; 1.2% severe) and very rare reports of severe adverse events (0.1%). These initial findings should provide reassurance to rheumatologists and vaccine recipients, and promote confidence in COVID-19 vaccine safety in RMD patients, namely those with inflammatory RMDs and/or taking treatments that influence their immune system".

                    • Gypsy …
                      18 November 2021 at 8:27 pm

                      "So. "I'm all right and fuck the kid down the road with asthma who ends up in ED every time they have a cold"."

                      The kid down the road with asthma is extremely unlikely to catch Covid from me. He's also unable to get vaccinated yet, so you're really not making any sense.

                    • weka …
                      19 November 2021 at 2:17 pm

                      yes. 5% and1.2%. Fuck them, who cares anyway.

                    • KJT …
                      19 November 2021 at 6:10 pm

                      5% and 1.5%. so about the same amount of flare ups in the unvaccinated group with the same underlying condition.

                      Which is why they reach the conclusion in the study that they did.

                      .

                  • roblogic …
                    19 November 2021 at 5:25 pm

                    Sounds like you have valid reasons for concern. Unfortunately most of the antivax stuff is off the wall nuts. Like "Covid isn't real", "There are massive coverups of vaccine deaths", "Labour is bringing in a communist revolution" (I wish!), or the theologically dubious "Jesus died so that we could have freedom and human rights"

            • Ross 1.1.1.1.2.2
              17 November 2021 at 11:01 am

              Science is a method of inquiry, not a point of view –

              Which can be corrupted by money. You appear to know little about Pandemrix, which is a shame because it illustrates the problems when the pursuit of profits trumps doing the right thing.

            • Julian Richards 1.1.1.1.2.3
              17 November 2021 at 11:20 am

              "Oh won't somebody think of the children"… Lock down the unvaccinated you say?

              Maybe that's not acceptable in definition, as children, as shown by science are at best of extremely minimal risk of covid19 effects(excluding immune system annomoles/co-morbitities)… How old is a child by definition? The science also clearly shows the risks associated with covid19 are predominantly a moving chronological scale with age (again excluding co-morbitities etc)… The devil is in the details of all this politicised life science/economics. Will the children be the next group blamed for transmission in communities? Well seek someone to blame… As the social-science has shown.

              It's okay that we're not immortal creatures yet (aside maybe from the dull social media versions of ourselves).

              Even this rhetoric of screaming inside the ego "anti-vaxers", my 'god' this 'label' is being thrown at many who are NOT antivaccination, as we've all (90something% or more) had vaccines of the former only accepted vaccine technologies. And yes, those who choose to think differently from the herd are rightly concerned and should be given a choice if they're faced with expulsion from a society. What the hell is wrong with us? This fear of everything at present is so unwarranted, and can simply be avoided with listening not disregarding and expelling an individual or group of ethnicity etc… Why the hell are we not mature enough to give communication, forgiveness, understanding, acceptance… You know, love! We really need to reasses the principles and practices (ethics) of social consciousness we're about to implement here, where they're coming from right now, and into our future (children… "oh the children".. )… Have to move out of this place of fear and hate, as this seems to be where much of these measures are coming from. It feels we're doing a huge detriment to future civilization because of our time line/age/fear..

              P.S. The article above sounds very much like an 'emotional sermon' itself. Just saying.

              • theotherpat …
                18 November 2021 at 8:02 am

                well said but these days its all about "me"…tolerance and forgiveness have no dollar value

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.2.4
              17 November 2021 at 3:39 pm

              The number of people worldwide who have harmed by the vaccine is so small anti-vaxxers are having trouble finding any.

              I'd link to a site that conveys the abject despair of thousands who rushed to the mRNA injections with open arms only to be felled with serious and seemingly permanent adverse effects. But I won't because some fucker from google or the like will shut it down and then these folk will have nowhere to go.

              Interestingly, others have told them that some sets of symptoms are almost text book 'Long Covid'…strange because most of the jabinjured have not had (or were of the many who did not know they had) Covid. Interestingly I, and some others I know up here have also had some of these 'Long Covid' symptoms. All a bit weird.

              One thing that's emerging from the vast number of accounts is that those who have had Covid and them get vjabbed seem more prone to getting the nasty side effects.

              But of course we're not allowed to talk about the side effects, are we? What's a few, over 200, youngsters with heart damage between the team of 5 million? Youngsters who could have had had a dose of Covid and most likely shrugged it off. Too fucking late now for them.

              When did Stuffed or the Herald or the spew that is television last do an in depth piece on those who have been injured by the Pfizer product?

              Vicious vaccine mandates have failed to get all over the line in other countries…countries where the bodies have been piling up in the streets…why do you think that is?

              • solkta …
                17 November 2021 at 3:43 pm

                Not another "i would provide a link but it's bollocks".

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  17 November 2021 at 3:50 pm

                  Tell you what….google 'chest pain, irregular heartbeat, shortness of breath, pain and/or numbness in left arm for weeks, extreme dizziness, nausea, after Covid vaccine'. You could , toss in 'feeling like head is going to explode or wearing too tight a hat'. Or 'tinnitus'. Or 'severe menstrual bleeding 10 years after menopause'.

                  • Tricledrown …
                    17 November 2021 at 9:14 pm

                    Rosemary Google up Irelands daily Covid infection rate 4,200 a day or death rate maybe you would prefer we had 10 times that without vaccination with 1/3 suffering some sort of long covid.

                    • weka …
                      17 November 2021 at 9:48 pm

                      Please don't do that. If you believe that Rosemary wants people to die or get long covid, you will have to link to where she says that.

                      Her pointing to side effects doesn't equate to wanting people to die. Why are you even saying that?

              • Tricledrown …
                17 November 2021 at 7:41 pm

                200 youngsters where did you get that figure the only figure I saw in your link was 216 for all ages .

                So I think you are scaremongering.

                No where did I see your claim.

                Of course their will be some side effects many with underlying health conditions. My Son inlaw had a serious anaphalactic episode but it was dealt with quickly and he recovered quickly he has underlying health conditions and was expecting something to go wrong. On his second dose he took the medication provided and no side effects this time.

                My grand so who was under 12 but the Dr in France said because he was big as an adult would be OK he suffered serious side effects but came right with medical aid immediately but had an rash skin falling off his nose a Giant pimple under his chin that lasted 4 days He was fine otherwise.Then he was over 12 on his second dose no side effects.

                That didn't put any of us off as my family lived through the worst of the outbreak in France .while in lockdown the only sound they heard was a constant siren sound of ambulances coming and going.

                And the horrific death toll.

                While no vaccine is perfect it's better than the alternative.

              • Sacha …
                17 November 2021 at 9:14 pm

                thousands who rushed to the mRNA injections with open arms only to be felled with serious and seemingly permanent adverse effects

                If that's say 5,000 then you're looking at 0.0007% of the 7,540,000,000 total doses administered from Sanc's source above.

                Even at 50,000 it's 0.007%.

                500,000 is 0.07%.

                Most medical treatments would love to have that harm rate. All clinical practices and substances cause a degree of harm. That's weighed up against the benefits and the risk of non-treatment. With a lethal pandemic, it's not a hard decision.

          • Frank Macskasy 1.1.1.1.3
            17 November 2021 at 3:49 pm

            "…people who insist that the vaccine is safe and does no harm. That's not science, it's fundamentalism"

            But if you produce no evidence to back up that strange statement, then how else should we look at your assertion?

            Especially when the facts don't back you up.

            Considering we've had over 7 million vax doses given out, and only one confirmed fatality (a women in her 90s), then yes, its science.

            Ref: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data#daily

            Ref: https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp#death

            The top 10 reported adverse events were:

            • Dizziness: 10,616 reports
            • Headache: 10,128 reports
            • Lethargy: 8,134 reports
            • Pain at the injection site: 8,121 reports
            • Nausea: 7,244 reports
            • Chest discomfort: 4,981 reports
            • Influenza-like illness: 4,486 reports
            • Fever: 4,445 reports
            • Fainting: 3,071 reports
            • Numbness: 3,040 reports

            Ref: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-and-reactions#reported

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.3.1
              17 November 2021 at 4:06 pm

              Some of these people probably wish they were dead…dismiss them…

              Guillain-Barré Syndrome14

              Thrombocytopenia23

              Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS)0

              Anaphylaxisb82

              Myocardial infarction (heart attack)38

              Myocarditis/pericarditis216

              Thrombosis39

              Embolism77

              Deep vein thrombosis (DVT)72

              Vasculitis55

              Haemorrhage94

              Acute kidney injury13

              Acute liver injury<6

              Pancreatitis<6

              Aseptic meningitis<6

              Encephalitis<6

              stroke72

              Bell's Palsy/facial paralysis117

              Myelitis/myelitis transverse<6

              Erythema multiforme9

              Arthritis39

              Herpes zoster201

              Abortion (spontaneous abortion /miscarriage)19

              https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp

              • Tricledrown …
                17 November 2021 at 8:06 pm

                So what the toll of not getting vaccinated would be at least a thousand times worse with up 30% plus suffering long covid.

                1 death 500 odd with adverse reactions most of those not suffering longterm .

                The toll with no vaccinations 10's of thousands many highly trained doctors and nurses dying or contracting covid because of being burnt out in an already overstretched health system.

                Our generations from WW2 to now haven't faced any major war or disease we have been the lucky generations.

                Soon as we have had the biggest health catastrophe since the Spanish flu 1918_21 a hundred years ago . We have the anti vax brigade the Lord haw haws the Tokyo roses of doom come out and spread misinformation to undermine what NZ has achieved because 1 in 10,000 has had a reaction some serious some not so.

                Rosemary Mcdonald it's OK to speak out but in context.

                Where are the 200 youngsters you claim have had heart damage.

              • Sacha …
                17 November 2021 at 9:30 pm

                Where is the 'severe menstrual bleeding after menopause' in the list? That sounds full-on. Or is it from an equivalent list overseas?

              • KJT …
                17 November 2021 at 9:40 pm

                You appear to be unaware, or ignoring, how adverse effect reporting systems work. They record events which happen after vaccination, not necessarily caused by vaccination. Most aren't caused by vaccination, as your link states. .

                To claim otherwise, is showing either lack of comprehension, or deliberately muddying the waters to try and convince others that an anti vacc stance is valid. If there were a significant number of "vaccine injuries" don't you think that after more than five million vaccinations, they would be showing up in our already overloaded hospitals?

                Or do you think we have some secret hospital on the desert road full of "vaccine injuries"?

                From your own link. "To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of natural deaths".

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  19 November 2021 at 12:38 pm

                  Most aren't caused by vaccination, as your link states. .

                  Thy do indeed largely dismiss all adverse events as being mere coincidence.

                  Same as it ever was.

                  • KJT …
                    19 November 2021 at 5:57 pm

                    Oh. FFS.

                    If there was an increase in adverse events caused by vaccination. There would be an overall increase in adverse events, with over five million vaccinations. Which would be immediately apparent in our already overloaded hospitals.

                    Obviously there isn't, unless we are hiding them in secret hospitals.

                    By the way as you seem to like "anecdotal evidence". The only two people I've ever met with Guillaum-Barre syndrome, are life long anti-vaccers. Does that prove being unvaccinated causes Guillaume-Barr syndrome?

              • Matiri …
                18 November 2021 at 9:54 am

                Guillain-Barré Syndrome affects 40-80 New Zealanders each year.

                Also increased rates of GB and other neurological complications have been reported after Covid infections. Vaccination significantly that risk.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.3.2
              17 November 2021 at 9:24 pm

              oh ffs Frank. You just said my objection to 'there is no harm' wasn't founded in science and then you quoted the science showing the harm.

              Like I said, fundamentalism.

              • KJT …
                17 November 2021 at 9:55 pm

                So few side effects in over 7 million doses, is about as close to harmless as anything gets.

                And that is science. Not “fundamentalism”.

                Rosemary already provided the links.

                https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-35.asp

                “t is also important to keep in mind that a report can be submitted for any cause and is not necessarily associated with the vaccine”.

                • weka …
                  17 November 2021 at 10:13 pm

                  fuck off. I've given a clear explanation of what I'm talking about in this thread, and I'm done with people who refuse to understand what I am talking about and then misrepresent my views.

                  All medicines have side effects. When the binary thinkers say 'no harm' they actively suppress the discussion of things that affect disabled people. When I start naming the issues for disabled people, people like you dismiss and deny the discussion.

                  Stop throwing disabled people under the bus.

                    • weka …
                      18 November 2021 at 9:59 am

                      go read what I've said in my comments under this post about disability.

                    • weka …
                      18 November 2021 at 10:20 am

                      wtf what? You think the vaccine is harmless, people who are having flares and relapses are ignored, ignoring them or actively suppressing debate about this is ableist. It's not new, it's just new having it quite so prominent among left wing people who are otherwise considerate.

                    • weka …
                      18 November 2021 at 10:21 am

                      I mean, I expect it from Sanctuary, but not from you and some others.

                    • weka …
                      18 November 2021 at 10:26 am

                      and because I'm sick of the talking points style debate on this, let me spell out what I think is happening.

                      People who have high faith in vaccines and medical science generally, and who see it as the one true way or at least the one best way, are struggling with the nuances around the vaccine. Some of that is ideological/philosophical (which is fine except where people can't be honest about that), and some is probably born from fear that if we are honest it might lower the vax rate instead of trusting people that if we are honest with them, they will do the right thing.

                      It's made worse of course by the fact that we are really shit at allowing disabled people to participate fully in society. So while I'm ok with the fact that the vaccine will harm some people and believe it is still one of our best tools regardless, I also know that I'd be less grumpy about it all if I saw lefties going, oh of course, people who get harmed should be fully supported by the state and not have to deal with all that WINZ/ACC bollocks. They've pulled their weight after all.

                      But no, let's deny there is even a problem, and let's not make the connections between neoliberalism and ableism and poverty, because covid stands alone as the most important thing.

                    • KJT …
                      18 November 2021 at 5:11 pm

                      I don't "think the vaccine is harmless".

                      The evidence shows it is as "harmless" as anything gets. Which doesn't mean the same as absolutely "zero harm".

                      (Vaccine side effects can be claimed for under ACC, BTW). And we have already agreed the current ACC, and sickness, disabled welfare system needs a huge shakeup.

                      Not my "opinion". Evidence!

                      Even Rosemary couldn't come up with evidence of more than a few hundred, "reported adverse effects" where she failed to mention that most would have occurred without vaccination, as well as being orders of magnitude less than covid "side effects" on the unvaccinated, after millions of doses

                      Abled people getting vaccinated is one of the best things we can do for those living with disabilities at the moment, as they tend to be the ones most affected by covid.

                      People showing things such as reported incidents after vaccination, such as CARM or other adverse effects reporting systems, without context, dog whistling that they are "all due to the vaccination" is actually dishonest, if intentional?

                      When they breathlessly claim that there are "lots of vaccine injuries" being ignored, and other claims such as "it is not a vaccine".
                      How do they explain the lack of "vaccine injuries" apparent in our overloaded hospitals if it was true?

                      The equivalent of shouting "fire" in a crowded room.

                      So. WTF.

                      P.S. I’ve been advocating for better treatment of disabled, the unemployed and under paid for most of my life. We have worked together on both, here!
                      FFS.
                      . Hardly someone who has ignored them.
                      Teachers, Doctors, caregivers and others in their life giving the disabled covid, because they refuse to be vaccinated or take other precautions, is hardly, looking after the disabled.

          • barry 1.1.1.1.4
            17 November 2021 at 9:19 pm

            Yes, it would be nice to see such clear simple messaging here.

            If everyone were vaccinated the virus would disappear.

            With 90% vaccinated previous versions of covid would disappear, but delta is too infectious, and the vaccine is slightly less effective.

            With 90% vaccinated and everyone wearing masks in indoor public settings maybe the virus would disappear. So the vaccine is not enough. That is why the traffic light system is necessary

            The traffic light system is unnecessarily complicated.

            • Sacha 1.1.1.1.4.1
              17 November 2021 at 9:37 pm

              The traffic light system is unnecessarily complicated.

              Your suggestion for an alternative with less than three categories is.. ?

            • KJT 1.1.1.1.4.2
              17 November 2021 at 9:43 pm

              Something that can be explained on one A4 page, is "unnecessarily complicated"?

              No wonder why the press briefings had to be like "talking to five year olds".

              As my year ten students, in the past, would have had no problem with it.

              • weka …
                17 November 2021 at 9:45 pm

                Calling the NZ public who don't understand stupid, that will really work.

                • KJT …
                  17 November 2021 at 9:50 pm

                  This is "wilful stupidity" from people who don't want to understand it.

                  Like we have seen so often from the press gallery.

                  • weka …
                    17 November 2021 at 10:15 pm

                    I'm not stupid and I'm not willfully stupid and I don't understand it.

                    I tried reading this earlier, what a mess.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-the-traffic-light-system-explained/5237ICI2JEI5EAYQUAZUZZTDGI/

                    • KJT …
                      17 November 2021 at 10:20 pm

                      I wouldn't bother trying to get any sense out of the Herald.

                      Who are amoung those who are more interested in bagging the Government than giving clarity.

                    • Craig Hall …
                      18 November 2021 at 9:48 am

                      Most people will be vaccinated or exempt (by age), so for them, everything will be (more or less) normal at Green and Orange (very few differences between the two), with some restrictions at Red, and however confusing the whole system looks on paper, daily life will generally not have those confusions. For various sectors, they will have to learn the differences for each level, but only for their particular sector, not the whole thing. I am involved in weddings and funerals from time to time, and that's complicated currently – the traffic light system doesn't look like it will be more complicated although the industries are still waiting for the legislation/orders (or whatever legal framework is used) to work out the specifics.

                    • weka …
                      18 November 2021 at 9:58 am

                      what about travel between regions? Periodic local lockdowns?

                      There's a tendency to treat vaxxed and unvaxxed people as two separate populations, but there will be families with both, so it's not quite that straight forward.

      • francesca 1.1.2
        17 November 2021 at 10:05 am

        Totally agree.

        • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1
          17 November 2021 at 10:16 am

          This is a confronting site but in the US, where much of the ant covid arguments have a religious basis this is indeed the case.

          https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

          and this

          https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

          There are religious memes that have influenced people not to have the vaccines aplenty.

          While in NZ we have fewer of these evangelical movements, as we politely call them, the rise of Brian Tamaki and his Destiny church in the anti vaccine movement would seem to be following a similar track. After seeing the devastation wreaked on their church by Covid the Samoan AOG churches are now in support of vaccines and also the teachers at Gloriavale seem to have been given the OK to be vaccinated.

          • weka 1.1.2.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 10:26 am

            The death rate of unvaccinated people is the biggest motivator that I can see for hesitant people. I'm less convinced it will work with anti-vaxxers, they won't read that site and they don't trust MSM reporting. This is a problem far beyond covid, and we should be paying attention, learning what is going on.

            None of my non-vax friends are Christians. I think Tamaki etc are a big problem, but that was true before the pandemic. There’s a big culture of already anti-vax people sit outside that and have their own beliefs.

            • Gypsy 1.1.2.1.1.1
              17 November 2021 at 12:09 pm

              "None of my non-vax friends are Christians."

              I have a few that are, but that's because I am a Christian and mix in those circles. But far more of my anti-vaxx connections are left leaning.

              And thank you for being a voice of reason in this entire wilderness of critical thinking.

            • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1.2
              17 November 2021 at 7:41 pm

              This sounds harsh and it is……the vaccine hesitant are the ones we should be concentrating on as they have shown they still have an open mind. The out & out anti vaxxers ie those from the David Farrier's Loopy article not so much.

              https://www.webworm.co/p/loopy

              There is a difference between the two groups and they deserve different messages or, no messages in case of the hardliners.

              An older mother I was talking to today said that the fact that the ferries and airlines require vaccinations or testings has meant that they have put off for now the conversation they were having with a SI based son.& daughter in law. A family consensus was that unvaccinated family members should not come to the two week extended Christmas and New Year family celebrations.

              Difficult times.

              • weka …
                18 November 2021 at 9:09 am

                doesn't sound harsh. We totally should be focusing on hesitant people and helping them. The whole ostracisation and ridicule thing is hugely counter productive.

            • theotherpat 1.1.2.1.1.3
              18 November 2021 at 8:19 am

              it is unfortunate….you are not spouting the proscribed line or data…as you know there is only duty and vaccination ….you will likely be shot at dawn….if anyone is outside the " mainstream" medical "facts" then they are hunted down as a heretic……

    • Shanreagh 1.2
      17 November 2021 at 10:05 am

      As has been quoted several times on here from Jeff Tiedrich

      'holy XXXX shit, vaccine mandates are causing teachers who don't believe in science to quit, nurses who don't believe in medicine to quit, and cops who don't believe in public safety to quit. I'm failing to see the downside to this.'

      While we are rebuilding can we teach children about

      ethics

      rights – yours & mine & society's

      how govts work

      statistics

      There are many other beliefs, other than 'Jesus is my vaccine' that have caught teachers and others in their grip. Some believe in the existence of evil players such as Gates, things being inserted in them eg magnet, trackers, some are concerned about the fetal cell (HEK 293 argument etc etc.

      On this last issue the argument is specific seemingly to the anti Covid vaccine as many medicines in daily use have used these cells. It is ironic as 'the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines produced by Pfizer and Moderna do not require the use of any fetal cell cultures in order to manufacture (produce) the vaccine.'

      Common over the counter drugs tested on HEK-293 cells or derivative cell lines.

      1. Tylenol / Acetaminophen

      2. Advil / Motrin / Ibuprofen

      3. Aspirin / Acetylsalicylic Acid (ASA)

      4. Aleve / Naproxen

      5. Pseudoephedrine / Sudafed / / SudoGest, Suphedrine

      6. Diphenhydramine / Benadryl

      7. Loratadine / Claritin

      8. Dextromethorphan / Delsym / Robafen Cough / Robitussin

      9. Guaifenesin / Mucinex

      10. Tums / Calcium Carbonate

      11. Maalox / Aluminum Hydroxide and Magnesium Hydroxide

      12. Docusate / Colace / Ex-Lax Stool Softener

      13. Senna Glycoside / Sennoside / Senna / Ex-Lax / Senokot

      14. Pepto-Bismol / Bismuth Subsalicylate

      15. Phenylephrine / Preparation H / Vazculep / Suphedrine PE

      16. Mepyramine / Pyrilamine

      17. Lidocaine / Lidoderm / Recticare

      Common prescription drugs tested on HEK-293 cells or derivative cell lines.

      1. Levothyroxine / Synthroid / Tirosint / Levoxyl

      2. Atorvastatin / Lipitor

      3. Amlodipine / Norvasc

      4. Metoprolol / Toprol XL / Lopressor

      5. Omeprazole / Prilosec OTC / Zegerid OTC / OmePPi

      6. Losartan / Cozaar

      7. Albuterol / Salbutamol / ProAir / Ventolin

      8. Enbrel / Etanercept

      9. Azithromycin / Zithromax

      10. Hydroxychloroquine / Plaquenil

      11. Remdesivir / Veklury

      12. Dapagliflozin / Farxiga / Ipragliflozin / Suglat / Enavogliflozin / Jardiance

      13. Ivermectin / Stromectol

      14. Metformin / Glucophage / Riomet / Glumetza

      As well Regneron used in treating Covid infections was tested using aborted fetal tissue.

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/regeneron-trump-covid-aborted-fetal-tissue/

      • Tricledrown 1.2.1
        17 November 2021 at 2:15 pm

        Don't forget Bleach and praying

      • Frank Macskasy 1.2.2
        17 November 2021 at 3:52 pm

        My latest blogpost on "alternative treatments" is apropos: [Deleted]

        Note the funny end bit. Thank the gods for unintentional humour…

        [RL: Take the link-whoring elsewhere.]

        • mpledger 1.2.2.1
          18 November 2021 at 7:00 am

          C'mon that's way over the top and offensive. People paste relavent links here all the time, to factual stuff and other poeple's blog posts e.g. Chris Trotter, Daily Blog, DPF, Whaleoil. Just because the pointer is to something self-written doesn't mean it's any less relevant. In some sense it's better to provide a link to a long post then write an encyclopedia in a comment thread.

    • georgecom 1.3
      17 November 2021 at 1:13 pm

      those who think God will protect them will be in for a surprise. it's not biblical, old testament maybe, new testament is not the age of sign and wonders, of miracles, it's the age of grace. god has already provided protection for people, it's called vaccines

    • esoteric pineapples 1.4
      18 November 2021 at 8:39 am

      Not only that, but they are testing God which any good Christian should know that you are not allowed to do

  2. Castro 2
    17 November 2021 at 9:18 am

    You should become a teacher and spew your sanctimony then.

    [lprent: If you want to comment then say something related to the post or another comment in reply. Rather than what appears to be venting your frustration at an inability to successfully masturbate like every other 14 year old.

    Which seems as relevant to your comment as your comment did to the post.

    You are now warned. Read the policy on attacking authors rather than dealing with what they write. ]

  3. Tricledrown 3
    17 November 2021 at 9:37 am

    I want unvaccinated children who can't be immunised protected ,if teachers don't want to be vaccinated fine but don't put defenceless children at risk and visa versa children passing it back to unvaccinated teachers who have a much higher chance of transmitting.

    • Ad 3.1
      17 November 2021 at 9:47 am

      I can imagine a massive increase in distance learning out of this. That's certainly been the case in tertiary education.

  4. Pete 4
    17 November 2021 at 9:51 am

    Scores of Yr7 kids lined up to get MMR vaccinations at intermediate school. Parents done all the paperwork, permissions, beforehand (along with information and invitation from the health people to talk about it.)

    I guess that scene will be changed forever. "But I don't know what is in the vaccine …"

    "What about the kids?" is the expressed concern about teachers leaving. What about the kids all right. In some places they are learning from the models around them that you do not trust or believe those who are in positions of authority, those who are in leadership roles, those with expertise.

    Do not take anything at face value. You don't know what's in the vaccine? You don't know what's behind the face of anyone or anything. Don't trust anyone but yourself. Until you find someone who believes vaccines will magnetise you of course.

  5. weka 5
    17 November 2021 at 10:00 am

    20% against the mandates is high. Given the hard core anti-vax rate in NZ is probably more like 5 or 8%.

    • Robert Guyton 5.1
      17 November 2021 at 10:14 am

      Mandating is not-unexpectedly creating angst – it's a very challenging issue and one that takes courage to initiate. The Government has taken the bull by the horns and chosen to mandate. No one expects that decision to be universally popular, especially in a society that prides itself on being independent-thinking, having a "number-8 wire" approach to life, and a "she'll be right" attitude.

      Sometimes though, you have to back a big decision for the greater good, despite your personal reservations.

      • weka 5.1.1
        17 November 2021 at 10:19 am

        I'd have less of a problem if I saw the people losing their jobs being looked after financially. I mean, we have a Labour government. Instead, in the public it's ridicule, ostracisation, and the government have no plan from what I can tell. Ardern has made it clear she supports the two New Zealands position.

        The 'fuck 'em' bridgade don't seem to have thought through what's going to happen in the high no vax places as the under the table work increases. Think hair dressers in people's homes.

        I'm philosophical about my non-vax friends. They're making their choices, and they will live, die or be disabled by them. But I am concerned about the social divisions being dug here much deeper than is necessary imo.

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 10:29 am

          I'm philosophical about my non-vax friends. They're making their choices, and they will live, die or be disabled by them.

          And that's not counting all those who did get vaccinated but were compelled to do so. If any of this goes wrong …

          • weka 5.1.1.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 10:40 am

            My personal view on my choice to vaccinate is that it's a risk but less of a risk than getting covid. I also assume that at the population level, people will be harmed, and again, this is less harm than if we didn't have high vax rates.

            Same with the mandates. If it's about harm reduction, then it's a useful public good action. If it's about punishing people, this will come back to bite us, maybe hard.

            Mostly I think we are kind of blind, but doing the best we can. Lots of uncertainty.

            • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.1.1.1
              17 November 2021 at 3:00 pm

              "Same with the mandates. If it's about harm reduction, then it's a useful public good action. If it's about punishing people, this will come back to bite us, maybe hard."

              Weka. What would lead you to thinking punishing people is the motivation for Jacinda's Government to employ mandating???

              Genuinely Puzzled of Riverton

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                17 November 2021 at 3:11 pm

                Weka. What would lead you to thinking punishing people is the motivation for Jacinda's Government to employ mandating???

                Genuinely Puzzled of Riverton…

                The eyes, Robert, look at the eyes.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  17 November 2021 at 3:15 pm

                  Can't take my eyes of…the hands….

                  • Anne …
                    17 November 2021 at 7:35 pm

                    I'm surprised she hasn't been told to keep her hands to herself. 😉 They are all over the place when she's doing the stand up Covid routine. Its a distraction to what she is saying.

                    As for the eyes R McD. You're seeing things that are not there and have never been there!

                • left for dead …
                  17 November 2021 at 3:20 pm

                  You have offered this video for the third or fourth time,try another line,or at lest get your crayon out and do a witches hat and maybe a moustache as a non binary,to be fair.

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    17 November 2021 at 3:44 pm

                    But it says so much! It is a classic and will haunt the PM for the rest of her political career.

                    I do hope she truly understands that this, and a couple of other recent performances of hers, have done more to cement anti-vaxx and anti government feeling than anything stumbled across in the so-called rabbit holes.

                    Big fail.

                    • left for dead …
                      17 November 2021 at 4:33 pm

                      I think the "Big fail"Is a number here have very little insight for the work that goes on under the water "ducks feet in all,I'm not that enameled by Ardern but the likes of yourself and Weka are banging to many pots at the moment,we have a bit of a clique here,who are burrowing more holes,and it seems just for a moan,so boot me off here again,it might be the saving of me and Ill go off and try an not make people sick.That's not a dig at you Rosemary,I no you have been caring for a loved one for years,good luck with that.

                      Oh just too finish off,I always like your Minister of misery slag off.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      17 November 2021 at 7:56 pm

                      Haunting…….I doubt it.

                      Many who watch it don't in fact get the same message you are getting Rosemary.

                      Many who watch it would agree that expressive arms and hands are not what is usual in NZ so we may look askance at them.

                      Other places in the world not so much, thankfully.

                      I was in Italy on a day bus trip from Milan to one of the Swiss lakes. Guide proposed taking us back a different way home to Milan and spoke to the non English speaking driver…….I was sitting at the front and after much gesticulating and expressive arms and hands the conversation between them finished. I asked the guide 'does X (bus driver) not think we can go back the different way?' 'Oh yes that is all ok he was just saying he was a bit worried about the air in one of the inside set of tyres and wanted to make sure we got back on a motorway at some stage before Milan and he could check them at one of the 'aree di servizio/autogrills'. wink

                    • Tricledrown …
                      17 November 2021 at 8:39 pm

                      Big fail yeah right you will never please all of the people all of the time.

                      Anti vaxxers make up how much of the population less than 5%.

                      74% of the population support mandates.

                      Some body has to be in charge particularly in these tough times. Looking at Judith Collins tonight saying the govt is all over the place. Collins looked very disheveled and all over the place probably up all night checking her numbers

        • Sanctuary 5.1.1.2
          17 November 2021 at 10:38 am

          The problem is many on the hippy left, in the liberal middle class and amongst boomers are united by a strain of anti-authoritarianism informed by 40+ years of incessantly repeated neoliberal propaganda that state is somehow your enemy, an ideological position summed up by Ronald Reagan in 1981 – "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

          Yet as neoliberalism decline it seems it successor is going to be its erstwhile victim, the state. In short, the big state is back, and you had better get used to it. Climate change, pandemics, economic crisis, looming wars etc are going to see much greater intervention by the state in our lives and much greater demands on citizens to conform to imposed rules.

          The political right is way ahead of the left on this – the liberal middle class is increasingly left defending an untenable status quo and its main political vehicles in Europe and the US are in a crisis as they lose huge chunks of voters to authoritarian parties whose platform at least acknowledge the crisis.

          We need to wake up and stop treating the last forty years of individualised narcissism as a hypernormalised reality we can't escape.

          • RedLogix 5.1.1.2.1
            17 November 2021 at 10:57 am

            Oddly enough though the other day you seem to care quite a lot about your individual 'right' to comment here.

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.2.2
            17 November 2021 at 3:01 pm

            I'm with Sanctuary!

            🙂

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.2.3
            17 November 2021 at 3:19 pm

            We need to wake up and stop treating the last forty years of individualised narcissism as a hypernormalised reality we can't escape.

            Some need to wake up and start realising that nigh on forty years of neo- liberal every- man- for- himself -and- kick -them- when- they're -down policy that Jacinda's mob has actually made worse over the course of their occupation of the Government benches has normalised margin living for so many.

            You need to get out more and speak with the common folk. You clearly have no idea of the depths of mistrust in Government that exists out here.

            And no. It is foolishness to assume this is a left/right binary.

            • theotherpat 5.1.1.2.3.1
              18 November 2021 at 9:02 am

              +100……that last quote was a dead give away…..must be all the boomers fault.

            • North 5.1.1.2.3.2
              18 November 2021 at 2:16 pm

              I accept that I need to get out more and talk seriously with the 74 % or whatever the large percentage it is whom aren't particularly focused on Jacinda's hands; whom don't understand that the pandemic is actually optional.

              I too am with Sanctuary. Could add this group – plain cussed contrarians for whom “Neh !” is the principal principle.

        • Shanreagh 5.1.1.3
          17 November 2021 at 10:45 am

          I'd have less of a problem if I saw the people losing their jobs being looked after financially.

          I cannot locate it, running out of time as going but there is an article stating that benefits would be paid, that some cases would not require a stand down period. There are still the weekly limits on income coming into the home. (Diff argument here still worthy of looking at)

          Can someone locate it please……todays Newshub or Stuff.

          I feel that the anti vaxxers affected by the mandate are entitled to the same approach as others who may have involuntarily lost their jobs. Their claim to any sort of enhanced benefit is weak. Are they different to those leaving employment through restructuring or redundancy?

          The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed when managing their income after losing a job. Examples would have been going to shows, concerts, dining out, sports games etc etc. Supermarket shopping saw fewer treats etc.

          • Anne 5.1.1.3.1
            17 November 2021 at 11:06 am

            The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed….

            My bold.

            Indeed they were. I was made redundant in the 1990s – at a time when the neoliberal inspired meme of the day was: anyone over the age of 45 was over the hill and unemployable. It lasted a long time and many competent and experienced people in the Public Service anyway, were lost forever. Some of us were reduced to scraping by on a benefit which had been almost halved by Ruth Richardson earlier that decade. It was a truly horrible time for many Nzers.

          • weka 5.1.1.3.2
            17 November 2021 at 12:44 pm

            thanks, that's the first reference I've seen to whether WINZ are using stand downs or not.

            That we treat people leaving jobs differently, and sometimes really shittily, isn't a reason to continue doing that. Government restructures leading to people leaving the jobs is similar and we know that NZ has an appalling history on this. I don't believe it's left wing position to argue that people shouldn't be looked after when they lose their job. But in this instance, there are people who believe that the people losing work over the mandate have themselves to blame. It's straight out of the RW hand book and it's terrible that we are so willing to throw aside princples.

            • Craig Hall 5.1.1.3.2.1
              17 November 2021 at 4:02 pm

              Based on the current wording in the Social Security Act, I don't think MSD could refuse a benefit to someone who was dismissed for not being vaccinated as it is not misconduct (essentially a person is incompatible with the job), so it makes sense to hold the same position for someone resigning although that's more open to interpretation in the Act.

          • weka 5.1.1.3.3
            17 November 2021 at 12:48 pm

            The large scale restructurings/redundancies of the 1980s/90s /2000s did not create two groups of citizens though many would have found their access to the leisure time activities that they could do when fully employed were curtailed when managing their income after losing a job. Examples would have been going to shows, concerts, dining out, sports games etc etc. Supermarket shopping saw fewer treats etc.

            Actually it did. The 80s was when the 'bludger' meme was elevated to national status. Much of that was intentional and readily accepted by the Protestant work ethic people who are judgemental and believe on bootstraps.

            Not too dissimilar. Compassion was fine until people got scared. But the great teachings on compassion don't dole it out like that. Compassion exists even for the people we judge most harshly. We base society on this, which is why prisoners have rights for instance. The philosophical shifts happening now are a concern that people are barely even registering, but this is the authoritarian left on display. Can't be bothered with carrots, let's bring in the sticks.

            • Shanreagh 5.1.1.3.3.1
              17 November 2021 at 8:05 pm

              I disagree with the bludger connotation in relation to the ones who were laid off during the neo lib era. Many of us were laid off and could not access any form of benefit as we

              had savings

              were single

              etc etc

              We were 'welcome to check the jobs board'.

              So we saw colleagues able to carry on their lives while many of us lived a restricted life until we could get another job. The 'bludger' idiom was not thrown at all of those who had to access benefits but the ones, even then, who were making it more of a lifestyle choice to be on a benefit.

              • weka …
                18 November 2021 at 2:27 pm

                when a government runs an economy with a permanent unemployment rate, there is in fact nothing wrong with people living on a benefit as a lifestyle choice.

                Not sure why you are choosing to reinforce bludger memes.

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 November 2021 at 7:48 pm

                  Just being factual with my experience. I don't ever use the word bludger, never have and never will.

                  Work fulfills so many more social/societal functions than just the wage. I think that not working when one could sets a bad example for children etc – sets up expectations and entitlements. Society misses out on the brain power of a variety of people.

                  • weka …
                    20 November 2021 at 7:52 pm

                    Bludger became a pejorative aimed at people who were on the dole. I'm glad for you that you didn't get that, but many people did, even those who had no choice in being unemployed. It was a massive cultural shift, and much of that was intentional.

                    I think Ardern is bordering on doing the same over vaccination, and imo that shift is unnecessary, cruel, and bad for the country. I hope I am wrong that this is what is happening, but I think it's going to get worse.

        • Cricklewood 5.1.1.4
          17 November 2021 at 3:30 pm

          Whats worse for me is that mandates are very clearly going to impact children especially in the 12-15 age group. Their educational and social opportunities will be much diminished and they are not going to vaccinate against a parent or guardians wishes.

          There have been lots of places announce 12 and over must be double vaxxed include Sports, The Arts (dance, theater) Museums, Clubs and others. I think thats a mistake, if we have to pick an age it should be 18.

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    17 November 2021 at 10:04 am

    Darkest day in NZ education?

    Have we forgotten Merv Wellington?

  7. Kiwicatlover 7
    17 November 2021 at 10:09 am

    As I posted previously, recent UK random sampling had 1.2% unvaccinated and 0.4% vaccinated test positive. If you discount the vaccinated rate by 3 to represent the reduced transmissibility, you get 1.2% vs 0.14% equivalent risk. Not a trivial difference, but I’m not convinced that is where the line should be drawn between business as usual and ending someone’s career.

    • Ad 7.1
      17 November 2021 at 10:14 am

      How is a UK random sampling relevant to New Zealand conditions for vaccination mandates?

      Also if you are going to throw a random statistic about, show your source link so that it can be examined.

        • Kiwicatlover 7.1.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 12:13 pm

          That's the one. I was pressed for time and haven't mastered the linking format quite yet. As to the relevance, Covid prevalence in the midst of an outbreak in the UK, with similar figures in Aus, seem a useful proxy for planning in NZ, as we don't yet have good figures for an outbreak. If anything they should be a conservative worst case if our vaccination rate pulls ahead.

          So the question is, at what risk of exposure to infected people is it appropriate to impose severe impositions on civil rights. Vaccination status is an easy distinction, but does the evidence justify it being the dividing line? That is in question given that the vaccinated can still catch and spread, albeit at lower rates. I've yet to see a compelling evidence based argument.

    • weka 7.2
      17 November 2021 at 10:23 am

      there's an onus on commenters to link when making claims, even if you've already posted it (in this case it was last month and no-one will remember that).

  8. Anne 8
    17 November 2021 at 10:19 am

    In the next two weeks we will find out how many teachers in New Zealand are immune to facts, were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves, and after decades enforcing state rules in daily attendance and behaviours of young people at school could not themselves be subject to that same force of state.

    Aided and abetted by false prophets out of America.

    Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do.

    And that's the crux of the argument.

    Both quotes worthy of repeating because they are so critical to the story.

    Congrats on your post Ad.

  9. Maurice 9
    17 November 2021 at 10:34 am

    The Death of Expertise springs to mind

    Who can we trust when we are told that we shall not even trust ourselves?

    https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190469412

    "Technology and increasing levels of education have exposed people to more information than ever before. These societal gains, however, have also helped fuel a surge in narcissistic and misguided intellectual egalitarianism that has crippled informed debates on any number of issues."

    "Tom Nichols' The Death of Expertise shows how this rejection of experts has occurred: the openness of the internet, the emergence of a customer satisfaction model in higher education, and the transformation of the news industry into a 24-hour entertainment machine, among other reasons."

  10. Ross 10
    17 November 2021 at 10:54 am

    were happy to enforce vaccinations upon their children for multiple diseases over multiple decades but not themselves,

    I’m not sure that teachers would be demanding what has to be put into kids’ bodies. That would be unethical.

    As for vaccine mandates, I suspect they will do for the Government what the Boston Strangler did for door to door salesmen.

    • observer 10.1
      17 November 2021 at 11:50 am

      Support for mandates is consistent, across all measures, at 3 out of 4. Not only the poll cited in the OP, but previous surveys (e.g. Talbot Mills in the NZ Herald).

      If vaccine mandates were the only issue for the Government they would be at record highs. Other issues can sap their support, but not this one.

  11. Ad 11
    17 November 2021 at 11:57 am

    Imagine a 2022 history class in which this COVID pandemic is taught. It will need to acknowledge what we all now owe to the researching pharmaceutical industry.

    People forget that when the mRNA vaccines were first discussed, Dr. Anthony Fauci hoped that at best they would be 60% effective. In reality, these vaccines have proven to be 95% effective.

    Pfizer's vaccine didn't have public funding put into it. Moderna did through the US-Federal programme "Operation Warp Speed". AstraZenica's one was 97% taxpayer funded. As a country with negligible R&D other than into milk products, we relied on globalisation working for us.

    The pharmaceutical industry was better placed to respond to the speed of the need than the public sector, and the mix of public and private funding wasn't particularly material.

    Dozens of biopharmaceutical companies immediately refocused R&D efforts to finding vaccines and therapeutics that could be used to fight the virus. A lot of these efforts have failed – which it is properly the risk of private enterprise to do. It's far too big a risk for the state to take on with taxpayer funds here.

    Fortunately for us and tens of millions who remain alive today, enough have succeeded to prevent hospitalisations and deaths.

    We all should be thankful for this. And indeed for the industry who rolled it out worldwide.

    Quite a classroom lesson on the relationship of big corporates to the state within crisis.

    • Gypsy 11.1
      17 November 2021 at 12:24 pm

      Well said. It's interesting that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine (which is not a mRNA vaccine) has an efficacy of 63%, substantially below the Pfizer result.

    • Patricia Bremner 11.2
      17 November 2021 at 12:45 pm

      Ad, agreed Big Pharma has done well with this, but there is mistrust because of the pricing of medicines and treatments. We still have large populations with few vaccines. This may come back to bite us with a new resistant variant.

      • Ad 11.2.1
        17 November 2021 at 1:17 pm

        Agree, and to anticipate the next point: vaccines must not be the only focus if we are to continue slowing COVID's progress and accelerating our national capacity to recover from it both in therapeutic and in hospital care.

  12. Gypsy 12
    17 November 2021 at 12:18 pm

    "Young people need teachers who apply facts, who instil the necessity of scientific method, and who lead by example from their own lives. The mandate may in time do for teaching quality what a hundred ERO reports could never do."

    The arrogance of that comment is astonishing. The scientific method is not some infallible process. Indeed "…science is built on a mountain of mistakes, many made by the greatest minds." I know teachers who are refusing to be vaccinated. I disagree with them on this one issue, but they are to a person high quality teachers who the profession will sorely miss.

    • Ad 12.1
      17 November 2021 at 12:36 pm

      Experiments with double-blind proof are precisely how all modern science is conducted.

      That science has at times merged with political leadership to highly destructive effect is well acknowledged throughout the 20th century. But that necessity of teaching scientific method in schools is and must remain the primary source of confidence on knowledge.

      • weka 12.1.1
        17 November 2021 at 12:41 pm

        double blind RCTs are one tool that science uses, and it doesn't stand alone separate from the other tools, human bias, or the influences of commerce, politics and social pressures.

      • Gypsy 12.1.2
        17 November 2021 at 12:50 pm

        Confidence in the process, and in knowledge obtained, yes I agree. But mistakes are still made. There is not one single reason why people are anti-vaxx. Assuming teachers who are anti-vaxx are somehow of lower intellect or lesser quality is profound arrogance IMHO.

        • Ad 12.1.2.1
          17 November 2021 at 1:09 pm

          I am confident that a teacher who acts against all the evidence of vaccinations' safety, cannot properly evaluate between fact and rumour, is unable to act against all the risks to society and to oneself posed by their choice, is acting against the interests of their students so deeply that they are deeply deficient in their thinking and do not deserve to teach in front of a classroom.

          Those who stay within the system and teach are clearly better thinkers.

          Clearly the state has been content to make that judgement as well.

          • Gypsy 12.1.2.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 3:39 pm

            "Those who stay within the system and teach are clearly better thinkers. "
            You're making that assessment on a single criteria, being one you have personally selected. That's your prerogative, but it isn't necessarily reaosnable public policy.

            " is acting against the interests of their students so deeply "
            No, they are not. They know they will lose their jobs. They are prepared to accept those consequences.

            • Ad 12.1.2.1.1.1
              17 November 2021 at 4:46 pm

              My judgement will be about the same as any future employer they apply for, unless they are stacking shelves, picking apples or mowing lawns for cashies.

              willingly consigning yourself to an underclass is one small step above selling yourself into slavery. Even JS Mill saw that as radically unfreeze.

              • Gypsy …
                17 November 2021 at 7:28 pm

                It is government decisions that are consigning people to an underclass. It is a deliberate decision to create two classes of people, and it is a disgusting over reach of power that will hurt this country short and long term. 1300 DHB staff stood down this morning. I really hope no-one you care about needs their care.

              • theotherpat …
                18 November 2021 at 9:41 am

                they are not willing…with the courage of their convictions they are given no choice and yes i know you will say YES THEY HAVE…..its a hobsons choice…a you will do this or life is going to be suck for you….NOT something to be gleeful about

      • RedLogix 12.1.3
        17 November 2021 at 1:12 pm

        Experiments with double-blind proof are precisely how all modern science is conducted.

        No. They are only part of the picture. And not even the most important part.

        The study designs can be thought of as a pyramid. Case control studies are the first articles published on new topics so they make up the base of the pyramid. As we progress up the pyramid, the studies become more evidence-based and less numerous. Meta-Analyses are at the top of the pyramid because they can only be written after much other research has been done on a topic. There are many fewer of them but they offer very strong evidence.

        This idea that RCT's are the only basis on which medical science can proceed is a mis-direction probably promoted by big pharma and govts who are the only entities who can afford to conduct them.

        • Ad 12.1.3.1
          17 November 2021 at 1:19 pm

          OK not all.

          • RedLogix 12.1.3.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 1:26 pm

            There are more than a few medical people deeply unhappy at how the system has moved to stripping away the value and importance of the individual clinician's observation and experience.

            It's the face to face clinical experience with real patients and all the human variation they present, together with decades informed intuition and reported as Case Studies that forms the bedrock of the pyramid.

      • mpledger 12.1.4
        18 November 2021 at 7:17 am

        Double blind RCTs are the gold standard for drug trials but many, many health studies are not blinded, nor can they be. In NZ, I would doubt whether 5% of health studies are double blinded.

    • weka 12.2
      17 November 2021 at 12:40 pm

      yeah, it's not accurate to say that non-vaxxed people are inherently anti-science. We're talking about interpretation of science. Medical ethics is a thing, and we're not very good at it in this debate.

      • Ad 12.2.1
        17 November 2021 at 1:12 pm

        I'm claiming that anti-vaccination teachers who choose not to be vaccinated do not deserve to teach in front of a classroom.

        Their consequent ethical choices have consequences that they understand.

        • Sanctuary 12.2.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 1:35 pm

          I guess at the end of the day all this huffing and puffing from the anti-vax/vax hesitant brigade is going to count for nothing more than hot air, because you are going to get vaxxed or disappear from mainstream society.

          Like I said previously, these are government mandates not seen in seventy years and come as a huge shock after two generations of narcissistic individualism and indulgent anti-authoritarianism but that doesn't mean the state doesn't have the powers required, or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions.

          So I guess my only advice to the unvaccinated is nip down to Briscoes now (while they will still let you through the door) and pick up a nice coffee machine and panini maker, because you won't be able to enter a cafe and buy either item very soon.

          • Ad 12.2.1.1.1
            17 November 2021 at 1:57 pm

            We shall know them by their mullets.

            They will be henceforth The Mullets.

          • Robert Guyton 12.2.1.1.2
            17 November 2021 at 3:08 pm

            You've got it!

          • Gypsy 12.2.1.1.3
            17 November 2021 at 3:44 pm

            " these are government mandates not seen in seventy years and come as a huge shock after two generations of narcissistic individualism and indulgent anti-authoritarianism but that doesn't mean the state doesn't have the powers required, or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions."
            Of course the state has the 'power'. The question is whether they should exercise it. Not all objection to state mandate is narcissistic individualism. Ever heard of conchies?

            • Shanreagh 12.2.1.1.3.1
              17 November 2021 at 9:36 pm

              Yes about conscientious objectors… I think you may be drawing a long bow to put anti vaxx people in the same class as conscientious objectors.

              Those who fought and those who were objectors were mainly cut from the same homogenous cloth. Those who fought and their families could see that the objections were within their ken or frameworks even if they personally did not have the same strong beliefs.

              Some of the reasons for not having the vaccination are borne out of misinformation and disinformation. Allergies can be understood and accounted for even though it was reported that medical people thought that on a population basis, around 100 people would be allergic to any of the ingredients in the vaccine.

              The use of aborted fetal tissue in the vaccines has been discounted. While it may have been used in some testing it does not form part of the vaccine itself.

              That leaves the disinformation etc aspects, the anti science aspects eg magnets, tracking device, parts of a big worldwide plot, scares about RNA/DNA etc etc. It would be very difficult to run a persuasive 'conscientious objector' argument based on these conspiracy theories.

              I received this report from Horizon research today about vaccine uptake

              https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/627/information?gtid=61868BB0-F738-4FB5-953B-52D8516AA628

              From the summary:

              • Those who say they definitely won’t get vaccinated are eight times more likely than the general population to believe that the vaccine can affect your reproductive organs, affect your DNA or RNA, and that it has religious or spiritual implications.

              To me, apart from Maori vaccinations, we are getting those who will never be vaccinated.

              Moving on to the traffic light frameworks, an emphasis on the vaccine passports, work on MIQ, mopping up those who are yet to have their second vaccination are future focussing efforts. And an all out effort to up the rate of vaccinations in Maori.

              • Gypsy …
                18 November 2021 at 1:10 pm

                " I think you may be drawing a long bow to put anti vaxx people in the same class as conscientious objectors. "
                The bow I was drawing was with reference to Sanctuary's comment about state powers. What the state CAN do is not always what the state SHOULD do. My personal view is the gleeful way in which the government is treating the unvaxxed is going to hurt our country badly.

                • Shanreagh …
                  18 November 2021 at 2:11 pm

                  I am still puzzled as to your reference to conscientious objectors in this context. Are we now trying to make a link between acts of the state while on a wartime footing, and the choices that people have on whether or not to be vaccinated?

                  I have not noticed any 'gleefulness' on the part of Govt……all I have noticed is all parts of govt trying their hardest to point out the vax message, the possible consequences of not being vaccinated to health while endeavouring to open up as safely as we can.

                  I find it intriguing, and this is not the first time I have noticed it, where personal malice is assigned to an action of government and this is of course nonsense. A Govt, not being a person, is not able to have the thoughts and feelings of a person.

                  What is the purpose of doing this instead of focussing on what the act/rule. regulation will mean to individuals? This is the more usual way of looking at it as correctly places the reaction to something with those reacting.

                  So why are you thinking this rather than saying it is the reaction of the people affected?

                  • Gypsy …
                    18 November 2021 at 2:34 pm

                    "I am still puzzled as to your reference to conscientious objectors in this context. Are we now trying to make a link between acts of the state while on a wartime footing, and the choices that people have on whether or not to be vaccinated?"

                    Again i refer back to Sanctuary's comment. In particular "or that the state has the right to require compliance with public health directions." Now the state had the 'right' to compel people to conscript. I may even argue that was desirable in the context of fighting a common enemy. However the way conchies were treated by society was disgraceful, and yes our government is deliberately creating a second class of citizens, sans certain rights some seem gleeful to take away.

                    "I have not noticed any 'gleefulness' on the part of Govt…"

                    Oh yes. It's palbable. And it's even sicker given the government on more than one occasion promised there would be no penalty for refusing to be vaccinated, and given they are doing this to cover up their own failures.

          • Ross 12.2.1.1.4
            17 November 2021 at 3:54 pm

            pick up a nice coffee machine and panini maker, because you won't be able to enter a cafe and buy either item very soon.

            I didn’t realise that the meaning of life is found in a panini and coffee LOL

        • Shanreagh 12.2.1.2
          17 November 2021 at 7:15 pm

          Harsh but true and that is why I like the quote from Jeff Tiedrich about there not being a downside to the loss of teachers, nurses and Police (in the US not here yet) given that science, medicine and public safety are fundamental to their jobs.

          I also believe that the mandate will in fact end up with fewer people leaving their work places than current shock, horror would have us believe. I would think also that the impact on society, on the state sector, other employees etc will be less than the impact on society from the neo lib reforms and restructurings in the late 1980s/1990s etc. Not minimising here.

          Two anecdotal stories from Wellington. A primary school BoT member advised following a meeting today that they had to stand down 2 employees/contractors, an on-call plumber and a teacher's aide. No nurses in the group that my flatmate works/associates with have missed getting their vaccinations.

          Did I read or hear also that some workplaces are allowing employees LWOP or half time leave if they want to wait for the Novavax vaccine to go through Medsafe etc but only for those who are vaccine hesitant because of the mRNA vaccines.

    • Robert Guyton 12.3
      17 November 2021 at 3:07 pm

      Teachers aren't (in the main) scientists, nor are they trained researchers. Give them/us a break 🙂

      • Shanreagh 12.3.1
        17 November 2021 at 7:18 pm

        No they are not scientists but we do not expect them to be influenced by unscientific research and disinformation such as above – evil players, magnets, trackers, etc etc. We expect them to have the education and nous to be able to move beyond the memes etc on social media.

        • Pete 12.3.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 9:58 pm

          It is important that teachers are representative of the community. They should just be 'normal' people, like everyone else. In the community there are people who have weird views about all sorts of things, including science and vaccinations. Shouldn't we expect from teachers then the foibles of 'ordinary' people?

          Well, no. I would have thought it was important for teachers to not be dumb, for them to be rational and sensible and open minded.

          Parents have expectations that teachers have the brain to know how to spell, or to check words and be aware of things around that. They expect teachers to be able to count and be able do basic maths. And of course to be literate.

          Parents have a right to expect standards around things like those. Should they get upset if their child's teacher is delusional and idiotically believes some of the nonsense around covid and the attendant issues? Aren't teachers allowed to be delusional and idiotic as long as they keep it boxed up during school hours?

          One account I read was of a teacher at one of the protests who knew all the stuff about the importance of vaccinations but is against compulsion. The kids in her class must have it sweet.

          • Shanreagh 12.3.1.1.1
            18 November 2021 at 1:59 pm

            I think some people have a flexible meaning to the word 'compulsion', and of course they would as it suits their purpose. For me, any request where an act is optional is not compulsion. It matters not if the other option is not one that suits you particularly, being asked and refusing is not compulsion.

            I am not sure that it even fits the definition of 'Hobsons choice', particularly with the non mRNA vaccines coming out.

      • KJT 12.3.2
        17 November 2021 at 10:16 pm

        Learning how to assess, interpreted and communicate science, was a big part of my teacher training.
        Which is pretty standard in NZ.

  13. aj 13
    17 November 2021 at 12:59 pm

    There must be a number of 'anti-vaxxers' who are stuck in that position through pride and a reluctance to 'back down'

    Having dug themselves a big hole through their early bold, loud and strong statements to friends, colleagues, etc., that they were unsure about vaccination. Once they declared they would refuse to get the vaccine if it was mandated, this becomes a real block to relenting from that position.

    The psychology behind taking a position then trying to back away from it interesting, and difficult for many people to do. It becomes hard to admit taking a wrong choice for fear of being seen as weak and unprincipled, and harder the longer they do it.

    The old saying – 'cut off your nose to spite your face' – an expression to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem – springs to mind.

  14. georgecom 14
    17 November 2021 at 1:26 pm

    slight change of subject – more than 20 minutes through the press conference announcing shift to covid traffic light system, 3 questions from Barry Soper and none of them about people using toilets under the traffic lights. saints be praised. no inane questions about how the PM 'feels about such and such either.

    • Ad 14.1
      17 November 2021 at 1:49 pm

      RED LIGHT:

      Working from home encouraged. Hospo, retail, gatherings allowed for vaccinated – with limits.

      Venues not using vaccine certificates it's contactless pickup only. Limits of 10 people, no bars or gyms or hairdressers.

      ORANGE LIGHT:

      Vaccinated have near normal life, with masks and some capacity limits.

      Venues not using vaccination certificates it's contactless pickup only.

      GREEN LIGHT:

      Vaccinated near-normal life, everything's open.

      Unvaccinated venues still have some gathering limits like Level 2.

    • Anne 14.2
      17 November 2021 at 7:52 pm

      I think he may have received a bit of a dressing down after his big fail – was it yesterday or the day before?

  15. roblogic 15
    17 November 2021 at 2:05 pm

    Those people complaining about their loss of rights always do it with the narrow focus on their own personal wellbeing, ignoring the people around them who may be immunocompromised, ignoring the importance of herd immunity to prevent wildfire outbreaks, ignoring the increased chance of death or permanent injury from catching Covid.

    It's your basic selfishness along with lack of rationality and spending too much time on stupid social media sites spreading hate and fear, bolstered by confirmation bias and the feeling they get from reading about evil conspiracies. My friend said she "saw the truth about what was going on" when she read this crap on social media "it was like my eyes were opened" because it confirmed her internal paranoid feelings about the world. IMO it was transference of psychological trauma onto current events. It's a shame that otherwise good people are susceptible to such lies.

    Saw this amazing thread about how people fall into the Q-Anon anti-vax rabbit hole (explains John Ansell's brain worms quite well too):

    https://twitter.com/AnneleiseHall/status/1460104921726869505?s=20

    • RedLogix 15.1
      17 November 2021 at 2:07 pm

      Yeah there are no conspiracies and everyone in authority is both all-knowing, wise and a saint. /sarc

      Conspiracy theories arise when people realise or suspect they’re being lied to. Into the vacuum rushes speculation. Most of the time this speculation is bunk – sometimes it’s not.

      • roblogic 15.1.1
        17 November 2021 at 2:13 pm

        Oh of course, especially in the USA the establishment is involved in a ton of murky shit. The evangelical churches and Fox news have corralled the outrage quite effectively by resorting to nationalistic idiocy. But that doesn't translate well to Aotearoa IMO

        • RedLogix 15.1.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 2:24 pm

          Given that most of the NZ govt's advice is closely aligned with US policy and thinking – the translation may not be as loose as you think.

        • Tricledrown 15.1.1.2
          17 November 2021 at 2:28 pm

          Mainly Christian fundies and gang members Brian Tamaki has a foot in both camps.

  16. roblogic 16
    17 November 2021 at 2:19 pm

    I have a close relative who has been in the teaching profession for over 50 years, still involved in governance and best practices, who agrees with the sentiment that anti vaxxers are bad teachers, and students are better off without them. Because it's about the students right!?! Not a teacher's career prospects.

    They made a choice, they face a consequence. Basic life lesson.

    • RedLogix 16.1
      17 November 2021 at 2:25 pm

      Whoa … individual consequences for 'bad choices'. Now where did I hear that before?

      • weka 16.1.1
        17 November 2021 at 2:53 pm

        lol.

        Mind blowing how blind some of the left is to this messaging, and that we can still take care of the collective without being dicks about it.

        • Ad 16.1.1.1
          17 November 2021 at 3:11 pm

          If I get half a chance I will write something on the rise of the authoritarian left across the executive and across policy rollout and across supporters. Ardern may well be on the slippery slope from Mother Theresa to Ghandi, but her oft-quoted line from last term still holds;

          "I refuse to believe that you cannot be both compassionate and strong."

          Currently showing accelerated evolution into the stronger being-dicks-about-it form.

      • Stuart Munro 16.1.2
        17 November 2021 at 7:51 pm

        Probably here.

  17. Robert Guyton 17
    17 November 2021 at 3:18 pm

    Ghandi's on the Dark Side?

    I'm puzzled. He loved looms.

  18. James 2 18
    17 November 2021 at 5:52 pm

    Who here thinks 30 minutes exercise a day and not smoking is good for individual and public health?

    Who here thinks no social media after 9 pm is good for mental health?

    -100% of hands go up-

    Who here thinks smokers should lose their job, freedom, ability to go to restaurants, etc?

    Who here thinks the police should enforce 30 minutes of exercise per day?

    -less than 100% of hands go up-

    OK, so something simply being good, of a varying degree, doesn't justify state coercion and extreme legal and social exclusion?

    Of course it doesn't. We don't live in a dictatorship, even a benevolent one.

    Instead of solid arguments to justify literally the most exteme limited on human rights in the last 100 years via mandates and passports, it's supporters argue a different claim – vaccines are generally good and anti-vax are dumb.

    Why? Because that's easier and feeds a self-righteous moralism. But it's terrible reasoning, and wrong.

    The protection from mRNA vaccines falls rapidly, within several months. It has limited and falling protection against infection. 90% vaxxed Ireland has increased cases. Europe-wide, this is happening in highly vaxxed countries.

    Im double vaxxed but I aren't interested in forever signing over my body for 6 monthly rolling Soviet passports, particularly where we are already highly vaxxed and 90% is an extreme figure plucked from ego to be "world leading".

    Instead, mandate vax for ICU doctors/nurses and those working in Old folks home. The rest is illogic, extereme over-reach, fear, and unthinking. Its not science or rationality, its emotional moralism, fear, and submission.

    That's why the Court of Appeals in US has suspended vaccine mandate in the US. Not because vax is so bad, its just limited and mandates are huge baseball bat to crack a peanut and ultimately come at a ridiculous cost.

    • Stuart Munro 18.1
      17 November 2021 at 8:01 pm

      and 90% is an extreme figure plucked from ego to be "world leading"

      Nope, it's an approximation that is predicted to reduce transmission to manageable levels. The actual number for that is likely to be between 90 and 100% – polio vax hit 93% before the US epidemic was halted, and polio vax gave robust immunity.

    • Sacha 18.2
      17 November 2021 at 9:53 pm

      but I aren't interested in forever signing over my body for 6 monthly rolling Soviet passports

      Fine if you were the only one affected by a decision not to stay vaxxed. Society has a life-and-death interest in your status.

  19. Jacqui McLaren 19
    17 November 2021 at 10:14 pm

    Teachers should apply facts and instil necessity of scientific method according to the writer. Who says the teachers who do not elect to be vaccinated are not working on facts, and that scientific method is ignored?

    Vaccines are given to at risk groups. That is how it has always been. That is how it was until 2020. One of the most obvious examples is the flu vax (flu kills aboout 500 Kiwis every year according to Otago Uni). That jab has never been made mandatory for not at risk groups and is free for a defined group of at risk people and certain workers. Those deaths are 'acceptable' and do not call for mass campaigns, vax centers, drive throughs and mandates

    The covid vax is approved for emergency use because the accepted research standards for medication have not been fully met. MoH website clearly states this. This means the vax is still experimental. All those who have been vaxxed must know this and are fine with it, as getting vaxxed (or taking any medication) means you have given your informed consent. It is also acceptable to decline medication if the full information is not available or questions cannot be answered.

    Science is also showing that for those who had the vax 6 – 8 months ago their vax protection declines or is no more effective. Facts and science would demand that all teachers vaxxed more than 6 months ago should be on leave imnediately until they get a booster. Haven't heard that is happening.

    • Sacha 19.1
      17 November 2021 at 10:21 pm

      Wow, you really have been doing your own research.

    • weka 19.2
      17 November 2021 at 11:29 pm

      Science is also showing that for those who had the vax 6 – 8 months ago their vax protection declines or is no more effective.

      Don't think so. Declines but doesn't become not effective at all.

      The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday that U.S. health agencies considered when deciding on the need for booster shots.

      …

      The analysis showed that the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing hospitalization and death remained high at 90% for at least six months, even against the highly contagious Delta variant of the coronavirus.

      https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

      Pretty sure the government announced third dose the other day for selected groups.

    • NiandraGem 19.3
      18 November 2021 at 12:03 pm

      Your fake ponderous, academic tone, and references to the scientific method, don’t change the fact that you are deliberately spreading antivax misinformation during a global pandemic that has killed millions of people.

  20. Maurice 20
    18 November 2021 at 10:12 am

    The largest identifiable group unvaxxed are children under 12 and the spread is being foisted upon us before they have time to be vaccinated.

    Min Of H Case demographics record in Cases by Age Group that the 0 to 9 age group (as at 9.00am on 17 Nov) 1068 cases (17% of cases) with 20 hospitalised (6% of all cases)

    The number is larger with the 9 to 12 age group (not reported)

    Consequently they are the group very much at risk of transmission and spreading the disease.

    https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics

    Much more interesting data at the link.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Infrastructure & home building slumping on Govt funding freeze
    New Zealand now has the fourth most depressed construction sector in the world behind China, Qatar and Hong Kong. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 8:46am on Thursday, May 2:The Lead: ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 hour ago

  • Brainwashed People Think Everyone Else is Brainwashed
    Hi,I am just going to state something very obvious: American police are fucking crazy.That was a photo gracing the New York Times this morning, showing New York City police “entering Columbia University last night after receiving a request from the school.”Apparently in America, protesting the deaths of tens of thousands ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    4 hours ago

  • Peters’ real foreign policy threat is Helen Clark
    Winston Peters’ much anticipated foreign policy speech last night was a work of two halves. Much of it was a standard “boilerplate” Foreign Ministry overview of the state of the world. There was some hardening up of rhetoric with talk of “benign” becoming “malign” and old truths giving way to ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 hours ago

  • NZ’s trans lobby is fighting a rearguard action
    Graham Adams assesses the fallout of the Cass Review — The press release last Thursday from the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls didn’t make the mainstream news in New Zealand but it really should have. The startling title of Reem Alsalem’s statement — “Implementation of ‘Cass ...
    Point of OrderBy gadams1000
    13 hours ago

  • Your mandate is imaginary
    This open-for-business, under-new-management cliché-pockmarked government of Christopher Luxon is not the thing of beauty he imagines it to be. It is not the powerful expression of the will of the people that he asserts it to be. It is not a soaring eagle, it is a malodorous vulture. This newest poll should make ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    18 hours ago

  • 14,000 unemployed under National
    The latest labour market statistics, showing a rise in unemployment. There are now 134,000 unemployed - 14,000 more than when the National government took office. Which is I guess what happens when the Reserve Bank causes a recession in an effort to Keep Wages Low. The previous government saw a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago

  • Bryce Edwards: Discontent and gloom dominate NZ’s political mood
    Three opinion polls have been released in the last two days, all showing that the new government is failing to hold their popular support. The usual honeymoon experienced during the first year of a first term government is entirely absent. The political mood is still gloomy and discontented, mainly due ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    20 hours ago

  • Taking Tea with 42 & 38.
    National's Finance Minister once met a poor person.A scornful interview with National's finance guru who knows next to nothing about economics or people.There might have been something a bit familiar if that was the headline I’d gone with today. It would of course have been in tribute to the article ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    21 hours ago

  • Beware political propaganda: statistics are pointing to Grant Robertson never protecting “Lives an...
    Rob MacCulloch writes – Throughout the pandemic, the new Vice-Chancellor-of-Otago-University-on-$629,000 per annum-Can-you-believe-it-and-Former-Finance-Minister Grant Robertson repeated the mantra over and over that he saved “lives and livelihoods”. As we update how this claim is faring over the course of time, the facts are increasingly speaking differently. NZ ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    22 hours ago

  • Winding back the hands of history’s clock
    Chris Trotter writes – IT’S A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in acknowledgement of electoral victory: “We’ll govern for all New Zealanders.” On the face of it, the pledge is a strange one. Why would any political leader govern in ways that advantaged the huge ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    22 hours ago

  • Paula Bennett’s political appointment will challenge public confidence
     Bryce Edwards writes – The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill ...
    Point of OrderBy xtrdnry
    22 hours ago

  • Business confidence sliding into winter of discontent
    TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 10:06am on Wednesday, May 1:The Lead: Business confidence fell across the board in April, falling in some areas to levels last seen during the lockdowns because of a collapse in ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    24 hours ago

  • Gordon Campbell on the coalition’s awful, not good, very bad poll results
    Over the past 36 hours, Christopher Luxon has been dong his best to portray the centre-right’s plummeting poll numbers as a mark of virtue. Allegedly, the negative verdicts are the result of hard economic times, and of a government bravely set out on a perilous rescue mission from which not ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    1 day ago

  • New HOP readers for future payment options
    Auckland Transport have started rolling out new HOP card readers around the network and over the next three months, all of them on buses, at train stations and ferry wharves will be replaced. The change itself is not that remarkable, with the new readers looking similar to what is already ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    1 day ago

  • 2024 Reading Summary: April (+ Writing Update)
    Completed reads for April: The Difference Engine, by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling Carnival of Saints, by George Herman The Snow Spider, by Jenny Nimmo Emlyn’s Moon, by Jenny Nimmo The Chestnut Soldier, by Jenny Nimmo Death Comes As the End, by Agatha Christie Lord of the Flies, by ...
    A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
    2 days ago

  • At a glance – Clearing up misconceptions regarding 'hide the decline'
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    Skeptical Science
    2 days ago

  • Road photos
    Have a story to share about St Paul’s, but today just picturesPopular novels written at this desk by a young man who managed to bootstrap himself out of father’s imprisonment and his own young life in a workhouse Read more ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago

  • Bryce Edwards: Paula Bennett’s political appointment will challenge public confidence
    The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill English, Simon Bridges, Steven Joyce, Roger Sowry, ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    2 days ago

  • NZDF is still hostile to oversight
    Newsroom has a story today about National's (fortunately failed) effort to disestablish the newly-created Inspector-General of Defence. The creation of this agency was the key recommendation of the Inquiry into Operation Burnham, and a vital means of restoring credibility and social licence to an agency which had been caught lying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago

  • Winding Back The Hands Of History’s Clock.
    Holding On To The Present: The moment a political movement arises that attacks the whole idea of social progress, and announces its intention to wind back the hands of History’s clock, then democracy, along with its unwritten rules, is in mortal danger.IT’S A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in ...
    Bowalley Road
    2 days ago

  • Sweet Moderation? What Christopher Luxon Could Learn From The Germans.
    Stuck In The Middle With You: As Christopher Luxon feels the hot breath of Act’s and NZ First’s extremists on the back of his neck and, as he reckons with the damage their policies are already inflicting upon a country he’s described as “fragile”, is there not some merit in reaching out ...
    Bowalley Road
    2 days ago

  • A clear warning
    The unpopular coalition government is currently rushing to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. The clause is Oranga Tamariki's Treaty clause, and was inserted after its systematic stealing of Māori children became a public scandal and resulted in physical resistance to further abductions. The clause created clear obligations ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago

  • Poll results and Waitangi Tribunal report go unmentioned on the Beehive website – where racing tru...
    Buzz  from the Beehive The government’s official website – which Point of Order monitors daily – not for the first time has nothing much to say today about political happenings that are grabbing media headlines. It makes no mention of the latest 1News-Verian poll, for example.  This shows National down ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    2 days ago

  • Listening To The Traffic.
    It Takes A Train To Cry: Surely, there is nothing lonelier in all this world than the long wail of a distant steam locomotive on a cold Winter’s night.AS A CHILD, I would lie awake in my grandfather’s house and listen to the traffic. The big wooden house was only a ...
    Bowalley Road
    2 days ago

  • Comity Be Damned! The State’s Legislative Arm Is Flexing Its Constitutional Muscles.
    Packing A Punch: The election of the present government, including in its ranks politicians dedicated to reasserting the rights of the legislature in shaping and determining the future of Māori and Pakeha in New Zealand, should have alerted the judiciary – including its anomalous appendage, the Waitangi Tribunal – that its ...
    Bowalley Road
    2 days ago

  • Ending The Quest.
    Dead Woman Walking: New Zealand’s media industry had been moving steadily towards disaster for all the years Melissa Lee had been National’s media and communications policy spokesperson, and yet, when the crisis finally broke, on her watch, she had nothing intelligent to offer. Christopher Luxon is a patient man - but he’s not ...
    Bowalley Road
    2 days ago

  • Will political polarisation intensify to the point where ‘normal’ government becomes impossible,...
    Chris Trotter writes –  New Zealand politics is remarkably easy-going: dangerously so, one might even say. With the notable exception of John Key’s flat ruling-out of the NZ First Party in 2008, all parties capable of clearing MMP’s five-percent threshold, or winning one or more electorate seats, tend ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago

  • Bernard’s pick 'n' mix for Tuesday, April 30
    TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:30am on Tuesday, May 30:Scoop: NZ 'close to the tipping point' of measles epidemic, health experts warn NZ Herald Benjamin PlummerHealth: 'Absurd and totally unacceptable': Man has to wait a year for ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago

  • Why Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating in the country
    Bryce Edwards writes – Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago

  • Worst poll result for a new Government in MMP history
    Luxon will no doubt put a brave face on it, but there is no escaping the pressure this latest poll will put on him and the government. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago

  • Pinning down climate change's role in extreme weather
    This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler In the wake of any unusual weather event, someone inevitably asks, “Did climate change cause this?” In the most literal sense, that answer is almost always no. Climate change is never the sole cause of hurricanes, heat waves, droughts, or ...
    Skeptical Science
    2 days ago

  • Serving at Seymour's pleasure.
    Something odd happened yesterday, and I’d love to know if there’s more to it. If there was something which preempted what happened, or if it was simply a throwaway line in response to a journalist.Yesterday David Seymour was asked at a press conference what the process would be if the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago

  • Webworm LA Pop-Up
    Hi,From time to time, I want to bring Webworm into the real world. We did it last year with the Jurassic Park event in New Zealand — which was a lot of fun!And so on Saturday May 11th, in Los Angeles, I am hosting a lil’ Webworm pop-up! I’ve been ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago

  • “Feel good” school is out
    Education Minister Erica Standford yesterday unveiled a fundamental reform of the way our school pupils are taught. She would not exactly say so, but she is all but dismantling the so-called “inquiry” “feel good” method of teaching, which has ruled in our classrooms since a major review of the New ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    2 days ago

  • 6 Months in, surely our Report Card is “Ignored all warnings: recommend dismissal ASAP”?
    Exactly where are we seriously going with this government and its policies? That is, apart from following what may as well be a Truss-Lite approach on the purported economic “plan“, and Victorian-era regression when it comes to social policy. Oh it’ll work this time of course, we’re basically assured, “the ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    3 days ago

  • Bread, and how it gets buttered
    Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago

  • Bryce Edwards: Why Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating in the country
    Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    3 days ago

  • Justice for Gaza?
    The New York Times reports that the International Criminal Court is about to issue arrest warrants for Israeli officials, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, over their genocide in Gaza: Israeli officials increasingly believe that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants for senior government officials on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago

  • If there has been any fiddling with Pharmac’s funding, we can count on Paula to figure out the fis...
    Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as “its largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff”. ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago

  • FastTrackWatch – The case for the Government’s Fast Track Bill
    Bryce Edwards writes – Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago

  • Bernard’s pick 'n' mix for Monday, April 29
    TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:10am on Monday, April 29:Scoop: The children's ward at Rotorua Hospital will be missing a third of its beds as winter hits because Te Whatu Ora halted an upgrade partway through to ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago

  • Gordon Campbell on Iran killing its rappers, and searching for the invisible Dr. Reti
    span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the country’s leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that “corrupt” the nation’s ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    3 days ago

  • Auckland Rail Electrification 10 years old
    Yesterday marked 10 years since the first electric train carried passengers in Auckland so it’s a good time to look back at it and the impact it has had. A brief history The first proposals for rail electrification in Auckland came in the 1920’s alongside the plans for earlier ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    3 days ago

  • Coalition's dirge of austerity and uncertainty is driving the economy into a deeper recession
    Right now, in Aotearoa-NZ, our ‘animal spirits’ are darkening towards a winter of discontent, thanks at least partly to a chorus of negative comments and actions from the Government Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago

  • Disability Funding or Tax Cuts.
    You make people evil to punish the paststuck inside a sequel with a rotating castThe following photos haven’t been generated with AI, or modified in any way. They are flesh and blood, human beings. On the left is Galatea Young, a young mum, and her daughter Fiadh who has Angelman ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago

  • Of the Goodness of Tolkien’s Eru
    April has been a quiet month at A Phuulish Fellow. I have had an exceptionally good reading month, and a decently productive writing month – for original fiction, anyway – but not much has caught my eye that suggested a blog article. It has been vaguely frustrating, to be honest. ...
    A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
    3 days ago

  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #17
    A listing of 31 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 21, 2024 thru Sat, April 27, 2024. Story of the week Anthropogenic climate change may be the ultimate shaggy dog story— but with a twist, because here ...
    Skeptical Science
    4 days ago

  • Pastor Who Abused People, Blames People
    Hi,I spent about a year on Webworm reporting on an abusive megachurch called Arise, and it made me want to stab my eyes out with a fork.I don’t regret that reporting in 2022 and 2023 — I am proud of it — but it made me angry.Over three main stories ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    4 days ago

  • Vic Uni shows how under threat free speech is
    The new Victoria University Vice-Chancellor decided to have a forum at the university about free speech and academic freedom as it is obviously a topical issue, and the Government is looking at legislating some carrots or sticks for universities to uphold their obligations under the Education and Training Act. They ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago

  • Winston remembers Gettysburg.
    Do you remember when Melania Trump got caught out using a speech that sounded awfully like one Michelle Obama had given? Uncannily so.Well it turns out that Abraham Lincoln is to Winston Peters as Michelle was to Melania. With the ANZAC speech Uncle Winston gave at Gallipoli having much in ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago

  • 25
    She was born 25 years ago today in North Shore hospital. Her eyes were closed tightly shut, her mouth was silently moving. The whole theatre was all quiet intensity as they marked her a 2 on the APGAR test. A one-minute eternity later, she was an 8.  The universe was ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago

  • Fact Brief – Is Antarctica gaining land ice?
    Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park in collaboration with members from our Skeptical Science team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is Antarctica gaining land ice? ...
    Skeptical Science
    5 days ago

  • Policing protests.
    Images of US students (and others) protesting and setting up tent cities on US university campuses have been broadcast world wide and clearly demonstrate the growing rifts in US society caused by US policy toward Israel and Israel’s prosecution of … Continue reading → ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    5 days ago

  • Open letter to Hon Paul Goldsmith
    Barrie Saunders writes – Dear Paul As the new Minister of Media and Communications, you will be inundated with heaps of free advice and special pleading, all in the national interest of course. For what it’s worth here is my assessment: Traditional broadcasting free to air content through ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago

  • Bryce Edwards: FastTrackWatch – The Case for the Government’s Fast Track Bill
    Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its arguments for such a bold reform. ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    5 days ago

  • Luxon gets out his butcher’s knife – briefly
    Peter Dunne writes –  The great nineteenth British Prime Minister, William Gladstone, once observed that “the first essential for a Prime Minister is to be a good butcher.” When a later British Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, sacked a third of his Cabinet in July 1962, in what became ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago

  • More tax for less
    Ele Ludemann writes – New Zealanders had the OECD’s second highest tax increase last year: New Zealanders faced the second-biggest tax raises in the developed world last year, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says. The intergovernmental agency said the average change in personal income tax ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago

  • Real News vs Fake News.
    We all know something’s not right with our elections. The spread of misinformation, people being targeted with soundbites and emotional triggers that ignore the facts, even the truth, and influence their votes.The use of technology to produce deep fakes. How can you tell if something is real or not? Can ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago

  • Another way to roll
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Share ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago

  • Simon Clark: The climate lies you'll hear this year
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Simon Clark. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). This year you will be lied to! Simon Clark helps prebunk some misleading statements you'll hear about climate. The video includes ...
    Skeptical Science
    5 days ago

  • Cutting the Public Service
    It is all very well cutting the backrooms of public agencies but it may compromise the frontlines. One of the frustrations of the Productivity Commission’s 2017 review of universities is that while it observed that their non-academic staff were increasing faster than their academic staff, it did not bother to ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    6 days ago

  • Luxon’s demoted ministers might take comfort from the British politician who bounced back after th...
    Buzz from the Beehive Two speeches delivered by Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters at Anzac Day ceremonies in Turkey are the only new posts on the government’s official website since the PM announced his Cabinet shake-up. In one of the speeches, Peters stated the obvious:  we live in a troubled ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • This is how I roll over
    1. Which of these would you not expect to read in The Waikato Invader?a. Luxon is here to do business, don’t you worry about thatb. Mr KPI expects results, and you better believe itc. This decisive man of action is getting me all hot and excitedd. Melissa Lee is how ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago

  • The Waitangi Tribunal is not “a roving Commission”…
    …it has a restricted jurisdiction which must not be abused: it is not an inquisition   NOTE – this article was published before the High Court ruled that Karen Chhour does not have to appear before the Waitangi Tribunal Gary Judd writes –  The High Court ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago

  • Is Oranga Tamariki guilty of neglect?
    Lindsay Mitchell writes – One of reasons Oranga Tamariki exists is to prevent child neglect. But could the organisation itself be guilty of the same? Oranga Tamariki’s statistics show a decrease in the number and age of children in care. “There are less children ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • Three Strikes saw lower reoffending
    David Farrar writes: Graeme Edgeler wrote in 2017: In the first five years after three strikes came into effect 5248 offenders received a ‘first strike’ (that is, a “stage-1 conviction” under the three strikes sentencing regime), and 68 offenders received a ‘second strike’. In the five years prior to ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago

  • Luxon’s ruthless show of strength is perfect for our angry era
    Bryce Edwards writes – Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in politics. That’s refreshing and will be extremely ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago

  • 'Lacks attention to detail and is creating double-standards.'
    TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the two days to 6:06am on Thursday, April 25:Politics: PM Christopher Luxon has set up a dual standard for ministerial competence by demoting two National Cabinet ministers while leaving also-struggling ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago

  • One Night Only!
    Hi,Today I mainly want to share some of your thoughts about the recent piece I wrote about success and failure, and the forces that seemingly guide our lives. But first, a quick bit of housekeeping: I am doing a Webworm popup in Los Angeles on Saturday May 11 at 2pm. ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago

  • What did Melissa Lee do?
    It is hard to see what Melissa Lee might have done to “save” the media. National went into the election with no public media policy and appears not to have developed one subsequently. Lee claimed that she had prepared a policy paper before the election but it had been decided ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago

  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #17 2024
    Open access notables Ice acceleration and rotation in the Greenland Ice Sheet interior in recent decades, Løkkegaard et al., Communications Earth & Environment: In the past two decades, mass loss from the Greenland ice sheet has accelerated, partly due to the speedup of glaciers. However, uncertainty in speed derived from satellite products ...
    Skeptical Science
    7 days ago

  • Maori Party (with “disgust”) draws attention to Chhour’s race after the High Court rules on Wa...
    Buzz from the Beehive A statement from Children’s Minister Karen Chhour – yet to be posted on the Government’s official website – arrived in Point of Order’s email in-tray last night. It welcomes the High Court ruling on whether the Waitangi Tribunal can demand she appear before it. It does ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago

  • Who’s Going Up The Media Mountain?
    Mr Bombastic: Ironically, the media the academic experts wanted is, in many ways, the media they got. In place of the tyrannical editors of yesteryear, advancing without fear or favour the interests of the ruling class; the New Zealand news media of today boasts a troop of enlightened journalists dedicated to ...
    Bowalley Road
    7 days ago

  • “That's how I roll”
    It's hard times try to make a livingYou wake up every morning in the unforgivingOut there somewhere in the cityThere's people living lives without mercy or pityI feel good, yeah I'm feeling fineI feel better then I have for the longest timeI think these pills have been good for meI ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago

  • “Comity” versus the rule of law
    In 1974, the US Supreme Court issued its decision in United States v. Nixon, finding that the President was not a King, but was subject to the law and was required to turn over the evidence of his wrongdoing to the courts. It was a landmark decision for the rule ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago

  • Streamlining Building Consent Changes
    The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says.      “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago

  • Minister acknowledges passing of Sir Robert Martin (KNZM)
    New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago

  • Speech to New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Parliament – Annual Lecture: Challenges ...
    Good evening –   Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago

  • Accelerating airport security lines
    From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago

  • Community hui to talk about kina barrens
    People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Kiwi exporters win as NZ-EU FTA enters into force
    Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Mining resurgence a welcome sign
    There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill passes first reading
    The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Government to boost public EV charging network
    Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure.  The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Residential Property Managers Bill to not progress
    The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Independent review into disability support services
    The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Justice Minister updates UN on law & order plan
    Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Ending emergency housing motels in Rotorua
    The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Trade Minister travels to Riyadh, OECD, and Dubai
    Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Education priorities focused on lifting achievement
    Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • NZTA App first step towards digital driver licence
    The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say.  “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Supporting whānau out of emergency housing
    Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Tribute to Dave O'Sullivan
    Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Speech – Eid al-Fitr
    Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Government saves access to medicines
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff.    “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Pharmac Chair appointed
    Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • Taking action on Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder
    Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says.  “Every day, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago

  • New sports complex opens in Kaikohe
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago

  • Diplomacy needed more than ever
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges.    “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago

  • Anzac Commemorative Address, Buttes New British Cemetery Belgium
    Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service.  It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago

  • Anzac Commemorative Address – NZ National Service, Chunuk Bair
    Distinguished guests -   It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders.   Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago

  • Anzac Commemorative Address – Dawn Service, Gallipoli, Türkiye
    Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia.   Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago

  • PM announces changes to portfolios
    Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • New catch limits for unique fishery areas
    Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Minister welcomes hydrogen milestone
    Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Urgent changes to system through first RMA Amendment Bill
    The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Overseas decommissioning models considered
    Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Release of North Island Severe Weather Event Inquiry
    Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Justice Minister to attend Human Rights Council
    Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order.  “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Patterson reopens world’s largest wool scouring facility
    Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Speech to the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective Summit, 18 April 2024
    Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing  At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin    Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho    Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today.    I am delighted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Government to introduce revised Three Strikes law
    The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • New diplomatic appointments
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions.   “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says.    “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Humanitarian support for Ethiopia and Somalia
    New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today.   “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Arts Minister congratulates Mataaho Collective
    Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale.  “It is good ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-05-01T22:06:17+00:00