Open mike 11/04/2023

145 comments on “Open mike 11/04/2023 ”

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1. tsmithfield 1

   11 April 2023 at 7:19 am

   There seemed to be quite a lot of discussion generated yesterday around the comment I made about the apparent move by the MOE to introduce critical maths into our education system.

   For me, education is one of those things that should transcend politics, and we should all be working together to ensure our children get the best possible education to set them up for life.

   Just some further thoughts on the critical maths aspect.

   Firstly, I think it is important to distinguish between critical maths and applied maths.

   Applied maths deals with how maths can be applied to various practical problems in a wide variety of settings. So, in framing maths scenarios (rather than "problems") I don't see any problem using a wide variety of cultural settings for these scenarios. It doesn't change the underlying maths, and if it helps children relate better to learning maths, then I am all for that.

   The difference with critical maths is that it appears, according to the Wiki article, to try and shape the view children have of the world, and how they fit into it. In that way, it appears to go beyond the objective of teaching children how to do maths.

   Many of us who are parents or have young grandchildren are concerned about the state taking control of the education of our children and perhaps instilling them with values we don't agree with.

   An example that will likely resonate here is the current discussion around women's rights in the context of transgenderism. I am sure many here would not approve of schools instilling the belief in children that they may not be the right gender and they should do something about it, for example.

   It seems to me that there is at least grounds for suspicion that the MOE may be attempting to politicise maths in this way. If that is the case, then it should be put under the scrutiny of public debate so kiwis have input into how their children are taught.

   The other concern I have is whether critical maths approach will actually be effective in teaching maths, The reason is that, according the the Wiki article, critical maths teaching does not rely on a set curriculum.

   Because critical mathematics pedagogy is designed to be responsive to the lives of the students in a given classroom and their local context, there is no set curriculum.

   The problem I have with this approach is that growing in learning maths requires understanding prior principles. If teachers are going to pick and choose what they teach, then there could be a lot of students who never grasp those prior principles, and hence struggle with learning new ones.
   • Nic the NZer 1.1

     11 April 2023 at 8:29 am

     In the MoE video on their critical maths policy project I did get the impression of a hostage situation out of some participants. There was apparently 'robust' disagreement within the group, leading up to its teaching guidelines. I was also informed language can shape our reality and got the impression that the strong language of one participant might have shaped the reality of the project.
     • Nic the NZer 1.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 8:40 am

       MoE source.

       Second video (it has a transcript).
       • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 8:53 am

         Thanks. I will definitely have a look at that when I get a break.
   • Anker 1.2

     11 April 2023 at 9:22 am

     I support you bringing this up Tsmithfield. I think your concerns are very valid.
   • Peter 1.3

     11 April 2023 at 9:56 am

     "… growing in learning maths requires understanding prior principles"? Isn't all learning laddered on prior learning, mental and physical?

     Concerned about the state taking control of the education of our children and perhaps instilling them with values we don't agree with? Values are being learned through everything done in school, it is simply an environment, some of the learning is planned, some is incidental, some is accidental, but it will happen.

     Natural clashes may happen when the values a child has been exposed to since birth and lived minute by minute for years meet something totally new in their very limited time at school. Like finding the kid with the brown face is normal. And nice. And bright.

     The only way to be sure of avoiding the risk of offspring being instilled at school with values we don't agree with, is to keep them away from school.
     • tsmithfield 1.3.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:12 am

       "… growing in learning maths requires understanding prior principles"? Isn't all learning laddered on prior learning, mental and physical?

       To a degree, yes. But, with maths I think it is especially so.

       Values are being learned through everything done in school, it is simply an environment, some of the learning is planned, some is incidental, some is accidental, but it will happen.

       Agreed. But it is a bit different if there is a state agenda to instill values without that information being conveyed clearly to parents.

       The only way to be sure of avoiding the risk of offspring being instilled at school with values we don't agree with, is to keep them away from school.

       Or to send children to a school that isn't subject to that sort of influence as much. But that is where huge inequities can start to arise.

       If rich parents believe their children will get a crap education in the state system due to also sorts of extraneous woolly factors, they will likely pay to have their kids go to a private school where the education sandards are much higher.

       However, parents who can't afford to do that, may have no choice but to leave their children in the state school environment.

       Personally, I believe all children should be entitled to a high standard of education where the focus is strongly on gaining the necessary skills to succeed in life. So, to me, it is vitally important that our state system meets those standards.
       • Molly 1.3.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 10:27 am

         "Personally, I believe all children should be entitled to a high standard of education where the focus is strongly on gaining the necessary skills to succeed in life. So, to me, it is vitally important that our state system meets those standards."

         Agree. Delivering quality education should be focused on how to achieve competence in learners not (assumed) comfort for learners.
       • Nic the NZer 1.3.1.2

         11 April 2023 at 11:09 am

         An understanding of prior principals building on each other is an overly simplistic way of looking at the topic. A lot of the university courses are covering subjects already fully covered by secondary school. The difference at university is that the topic is dealt with in excruciating detail. A second year calculus course begins with limit series needed to construct calculus, where secondary school would likely make do with a bit of a hand wave over what makes calculus work. A third year group theory course is really a more general description of basic arithmetic.

         Also with any subject you will find many students who didn't get the earlier material and a range of proficiencies. For any subject it gets repeated multiple times year on year as thats more or less the nature of teaching it.
         • pat 1.3.1.2.1

           11 April 2023 at 6:44 pm

           but with math repetition only works to a degree…the door opens or it dosnt.
         • Descendant Of Smith 1.3.1.2.2

           11 April 2023 at 10:55 pm

           "prior principals building on each other"

           God forbid we have principals doing that.
       • mpledger 1.3.1.3

         11 April 2023 at 5:18 pm

         After adjusting for socio-economic factors, private schools and states schools have similar outcomes. You don't get a better education at a private school, you get a more advantaged network.

         I had a quick browse through the docs. I don't think they are using critical, for maths, in the way that is being implied here. They mean critical as in "vital" – skills that are vital for living as an active citizen. They do talk about using maths in other areas as a way of providing evidence. I take all that to mean understanding percents, interest rates, proportional representation calculations, what makes a good survey, experiment or trial, being able to estimate things as a check to see if something makes sense.

         The document seems to be about lifting the tail. The only talk about giftedness is bracketed with learning difficulties. I can see quite a bit of push-back coming from that area.
         • Incognito 1.3.1.3.1

           11 April 2023 at 9:46 pm

           You don’t get a better education at a private school, you get a more advantaged network.

           Bingo!

           Some call it Vitamin R, the R standing for relationships aka networks.
       • Descendant Of Smith 1.3.1.4

         11 April 2023 at 10:53 pm

         If rich parents believe their children will get a crap education in the state system due to also sorts of extraneous woolly factors, they will likely pay to have their kids go to a private school where the education standards are much higher.

         Many of those schools teach you that god exists so I hardly think standards are higher. I'd argue the standards are pretty awful.

         And from my experience this is much more accurate than your statement.

         If rich white parents believe their children will go to school with too many non-white children in the state system they will likely pay to have their kids go to another state or a private school where the white proportions are much higher.

         Algebra with its basis in simple arithmetic loses me and is akin to me watching someone do a magic spell that I don't have the recipe for.

         Whereas I got the magic of algebra at an early age – well before high school but found trigonometry boring as anything. Like magic and much more exciting algebra and elegantly designed algorithms.
   • Shanreagh 1.4

     11 April 2023 at 10:30 am

     As one who missed out on basic arithmetic at primary school by the absence of our noted arithmetic teacher and the hopelessness of the reliever in the olden days I agree with the continued discussion on this point.

     It was much later when an adult that I learned about maths people such as Fibonacci. (who is one of my 'heroes' now along with William Morris) I was taught tricks to help me with addition by my parents.

     I loved trig and geometry. I was able to do these to 6th form level. This I put down to other influences reinforcing what was taught eg Brownies/Guides, time telling, compass work that focussed on the circle or sphere.

     Algebra with its basis in simple arithmetic loses me and is akin to me watching someone do a magic spell that I don't have the recipe for.

     So primary school maths needs to be basic and the teaching of it reinforced across all teachers, including relievers. It should not be possible for children in a primary school class to just lose maths ability because their teacher was sick for a month or so. We had remedial reading but no remedial maths.
     • tsmithfield 1.4.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:40 am

       As one who missed out on basic arithmetic at primary school by the absence of our noted arithmetic teacher and the hopelessness of the reliever in the olden days I agree with the continued discussion on this point.

       I was similar. But I missed out in one of my high school years due to having a teacher with absolutely no class control. We called him "baldy King". The sole object of maths classes with him was for students to wind him up until he threw a wobbly and grabbed someone out of the class to cane them.

       It became macarbe entertainment. He was probably brilliant at maths, but IMO should never have been a teacher.

       I picked it up again at Uni where I did a couple of maths papers that caught me up with what I had missed out on.

       I really love maths. Not because I am really good at it. But I admire greatly those who have a gift in that area.
       • Shanreagh 1.4.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 11:51 am

         I really love maths. Not because I am really good at it. But I admire greatly those who have a gift in that area.

         I do too. I especially came to love it when I knew of its value/history in observation of the natural world and in basic design principles such as the golden ratio/perspective that we seem to know instinctively. In art I learned about these 'rules' so I could competently break them, to make people think and that was how I first researched Fibonnaci.

         https://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/golden-ratio.html

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci

         In art playing with perspective is fun and thought provoking. I have looked for, but cannot locate yet, a link that had very young children learning to add geometrical perpsective to their drawings. Including the concept of infinity and roads and lines leading to where we cannot exactly see.

         While we love the house with the windows, door and perhaps a chimney that we get from our children, children themselves are not convinced apparently that it represents the real world they are trying to convey. Because they can see that the house has a side as well as a front.

         Teaching children about perspective, which is a difficult concept for many to put down on paper, or think about was accepted by children in the study as a much appreciated way to represent the world.

         If the concepts are taught young they can be built in/on later in formal maths teaching.
   • Nic181 1.5

     11 April 2023 at 11:40 am

     How about some reality! The NZ Government or “ the State,” has ALWAYS controlled NZ Education. The Department of Education as specifically set up to do just that. Then and now! Politicians are the problem, they can’t keep their stick fingers off Education!
   • Trey 1.6

     11 April 2023 at 5:38 pm

     I was involved in teacher education in mathematics for 10 years. My Masters thesis examined the barriers and affordances that teachers faced when teaching mathematics for social justice or critical maths. The case study had teachers present data that looked at inequity in wages, unemployment, housing, life expectancy as well as whether you could live on the minimum wage.

     Student engagement was high and the students from Pacific nations over the period of the study moved from blaming themselves for inequity to realizing that the inequity was a result of systemic racism.

     The mathematics learning was incredible but so was the integration with social science and that the students were talking about their learning at home with Aiga.

     The teachers in the study also grew and when students made statements like Pacific people do not get high paying jobs because they do not do well at school, they were able to flip this to do Pacific talavou not do well at school or do schools not do well at teaching Pacific students?

     I have done similar research in high decile schools and had similar results. Improved learning in mathematics as well as critical analysis of inequity. Done well it is a win win. Paulo Freire was an outstanding educator and if New Zealand schools were to introduce his pedagogy our society would be a far more equitable place than it currently is.
2. Sanctuary 2

   11 April 2023 at 8:12 am

   I have a suggestion – can we have a ban on trans debate until after the election?

   The general comments section on this site would give an aspirin a headache at the moment.
   • weka 2.1

     11 April 2023 at 8:30 am

     can we ban men talking about their politics until after the election? (one man's trans debate is another woman's sex based rights debate)

     We've always had times when topics take up a lot of space on TS eg Assange, or the 2016 US election, or the anti-mandate protests.
     • Sanctuary 2.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 8:38 am

       Well there are other things hapening and it's killing the site.

       I guess that it ultimately depends on whether or not you want the comments section to be your personal platform to flog your hobby horse to death to an ever diminishing audience.

       Still, if your ears are painted on and you don't want to listen then go for the doctor.
       • Nic the NZer 2.1.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 8:44 am

         The comments are all structured as a tree. So if you don't like the way 2 is going you can skip 2.1, 2.1.1, 2.2 etc. Your welcome.
       • weka 2.1.1.2

         11 April 2023 at 9:59 am

         Well there are other things hapening and it's killing the site.

         someone always ways that, every single time there is a hot topic that gets a lot of comments. Usually someone who doesn't like the topic. I empathise, there are plenty of conversations here that I'm sick of too. Imagine what it's like being a moderator. You at least can scroll on by. Better yet, put up some content to get people engaged in the things you want to talk about.
         • bwaghorn 2.1.1.2.1

           11 April 2023 at 10:15 am

           My problem is it shouldn't even be a debate, if you have a penis ypu don't go into womans only spaces!!its that simple,

           Of you have or ever had a penis you don't compete in sports of a physical nature, it's that simple.

           Transitioning a kid under the age of 18 should be illegal
           • Liberty Belle 2.1.1.2.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 12:02 pm

             Amen.
             • left for dead …

               12 April 2023 at 7:15 am

               
               @ bwag..
           • Sabine 2.1.1.2.1.2

             11 April 2023 at 12:54 pm

             claps hands, well said.
           • Shanreagh 2.1.1.2.1.3

             11 April 2023 at 1:40 pm

             And it is that simple. We had a process that worked for the few who needed to transtion and that could have been tweeaked,

             Instead we had the No Debate and 'men are women when we want to be' mindset rammed down our throats. This was followed by a baying crowd a beating or two to keep us in our place. I find the women-hate mind boggling, not to mention a little frightening.

             When parts of the state seem to be part of this movement such as the Police non presence on 25/3 and the signing by the Human Rights Commissioner, Paul Hunt, who I assumed was non biased in appearance and fact to the Yogyakarta prinicples that have never been accepted by the UN.

             the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles
           • hetzer 2.1.1.2.1.4

             11 April 2023 at 4:40 pm

             You would think that bwaghorn, its not as if its tricky. Why the obfuscation and deflection on something so self evident ( to me anyway) is bewildering.
       • Shanreagh 2.1.1.3

         11 April 2023 at 10:13 am

         I guess that it ultimately depends on whether or not you want the comments section to be your personal platform to flog your hobby horse to death to an ever diminishing audience.

         Do you say the same about the people who usually have threads on Russia/Ukraine?

         Hmmmmm I didn't think so….only threads relating to 'women's stuff'
         • Incognito 2.1.1.3.1

           11 April 2023 at 4:22 pm

           Oh, get off the grass!

           One is a clear political wedge issue, certainly here on TS, which is what we’re talking about, and the other is not. For example, did shit hit the fan when Zelenskyy spoke before NZ Parliament?

           You’re comparing apples with oranges.
           • Shanreagh 2.1.1.3.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 6:20 pm

             Yes I know 'wedge issue' is the minimising phrase du jour.

             Sorry not biting either to this framing or to you missing my point.

             Luke Malpass in his article in Stuff mentioned culture wars and I don't accept this minimising phrase du jour as I noted in my post on 8/4/23

             Shanreagh

             8 April 2023 at 10:45 am
       • satty 2.1.1.4

         11 April 2023 at 7:13 pm

         I can see your point. I sort of stopped reading Open Mike, because of the "trans debate". Every now and then I scroll through to find the bits I'm interested in, which hardly exist nowadays.

         I suggest to split those "small culture war discussions", that's where I place trans debate (how many trans people are in the general population? More than 1%?), into a separate post. Or even better, people should fight it out on Facebook or Twitter etc.
       • Incognito 2.1.1.5

         11 April 2023 at 8:56 pm

         It is not killing it. It is polarising it and wedging it into two sides on one site.

         Trying to create a safe space were some commenters can talk safely amongst themselves is or should not be an issue – whether it is genuine debate is debatable. However, when this space is so tightly controlled & defended and others are not welcome unless they know the secret handshake and sing from the exact same and only sheet, then it runs contra to the kaupapa of this site, which is robust debate that is inclusive.
     • tsmithfield 2.1.2

       11 April 2023 at 8:52 am

       For my two pennies worth, the reason I don't comment much on Kiwiblog these days is that the comments section seems to have become infested with anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers, and commentors there seem quite boorish, and don't really enter into reasoned debate.

       I haven't picked up the same vibe here yet with respect to women's rights etc. Probably the key difference is that people are at least prepared to discuss ideas politely.
       • weka 2.1.2.1

         11 April 2023 at 10:02 am

         if during the election campaign there is this level of sustained debate, I will probably start putting up some dedicated posts and asking people to comment there. Like we have done for the 2016 US election, or the parliament grounds occupation. But I am waiting to see if it settles down post KJK, and because I don't have time atm.
     • Ed1 2.1.3

       11 April 2023 at 1:44 pm

       Looking at the number of posts, the site is doing well, but perhaps it would be better if topics with a large number of posts are reacted to by starting a new "thread", without needing much more than a paragraph outlining the topic and any obvious limits on the discussion. So for example a separate thread for trans debate may have been useful a week ago; it may have run for three or four days, and enabled Open Mike to cover a large number of other topics. Yes there is overlap and it gets a bit messy, but it would make it easier to track comments on a particular issue – and if the topic is kept ''alive'' by sufficient reasonable posts, it could be re-opened in a new thread every so often.

       A separate issue is that I value the posts that are written by individuals to start a thread. The "right" have no similar equivalent – Kiwiblog remains a dog-whistle sewer, but the right do have a lot of blatant propaganda sites covering a wide range of extremism with a common link of being anti-government, and anti-this government in particular. I am not criticising those like MickySavage, MikeSmith, Weka and GuestPost that have written material that make good conversation starters and give good information; I just think that the left needs more people helping by bringing different views and covering other topics – refuting some of the bizarre assertions from the right, but also celebrating success and explaining difficulties rather than blaming. With an election coming up, there is a greater need than ever to counter mis-information through advertising facts about past performance and policies to help those supporting the left make informed choices and be able to counter lies from elsewhere.
       • weka 2.1.3.1

         11 April 2023 at 1:48 pm

         the only reason I haven't set up a dedicated gender/sex post is that it's a fair amount of work to do and run and I've been busy. I've definitely been thinking about it. Too much of my time on TS has been taken up with moderating for things done by regulars who should know better.

         I agree we need more peopel writing. I've been toying with the idea of a Debate of the Day post, where we post a topic and people can go discuss it here. I like the idea of using comments from regulars as Dotd, because lots of people bring good intros to the table.
       • Incognito 2.1.3.2

         11 April 2023 at 9:37 pm

         Some Posts or topics do well in terms of numbers because people are emotionally (and/or ideologically) invested in them. Identity Politics ranks right up there [no pun intended]. Posts or topics with heavy intellectual [for want of a better word] investment are not so common because they require much more effort on behalf of the Author. They also require more mental work from commenters (and readers!). Don’t forget TS is competing with MSM and SM, among others, for time & attention of people. TS does not have anything to gain or lose in terms of advertisers on the site!!
         • Ed1 2.1.3.2.1

           11 April 2023 at 10:13 pm

           I had thought of some subjects being used say once a week – examples could be Water, or Climate Change, or Celebrating success (of government), or Transport – they may concentrate discussion for that day, but also make it easier to track issues on Open Mike if there are a reduced number of concurrent threads. I appreciate the work done by the moderators; I was not wanting to make that work harder!
           • Incognito 2.1.3.2.1.1

             12 April 2023 at 5:55 pm

             Understood. However, I won’t comment further because the ball is not in my court.
   • Anne 2.2

     11 April 2023 at 10:39 am

     "I have a suggestion – can we have a ban on trans debate until after the election?"

     Going too far but I second the sentiment. It is clearly putting commenters off this site. You only have to look at the OM posts to see that is happening. Perhaps the one trick ponies could be discouraged from hogging the posts and let other commenters introduce other arguably more urgent issues which beset the nation and elsewhere.
     • weka 2.2.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:45 am

       The Letting Women Speak post had the highest comments TS has seen in while. It got 4,800 views, most posts get under 1,000. My casual observation is that OM views and comments are high atm too (for a range of reasons).

       Perhaps the people with antipathy towards women's sex based rights debate could start talking about the things they want to talk about instead of telling women to shut up. Anyone can post in OM. How about you put up a topic for discussion today Anne.
       • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 11:15 am

         Perhaps the people with antipathy towards women's sex based rights debate could start talking about the things they want to talk about instead of telling women to shut up. Anyone can post in OM. How about you put up a topic for discussion today Anne.

         Unreal Weka. We shut up so 'others' can debate 'other' things that 'others' have deemed more worthy.

         If someone wants to read different topics then put up some different topics to discuss.

         Go back on the boards and find a topic you would like to explore further and comment on that. It will show in the index of posts and people may find here is a topic I'd like to comment on/read.

         Or is this related to serious techno things like in the olden days our dial ups couldn't cope with massive amounts of data coming in? If it is seriously related to constraints on data then perhaps there is a point. If it is constrained then how can we get more is it band width? I could put some $$$ forward.
         • Roy Cartland 2.2.1.1.1

           11 April 2023 at 11:24 am

           I'm in agreement with Weka and Shanreagh here. A while ago, someone suggested that those who want to learn more could do a bit more listening, rather than blurting their 2c all the time.

           I've been doing that (as in reading, rather than 'listening'), and have been well rewarded by the quality of argument.

           Please don't ban this discussion, just because someone's 'tired' of it.
     • Incognito 2.2.2

       11 April 2023 at 9:14 pm

       Yup, it takes up bandwidth & oxygen here, but some seem to regard this as good & desirable, apparently.

       If the wishes of one group interfere with the quality of experience (aka enjoyment) of another group and start to become detrimental to the general good I think we have a problem. But not everybody sees it this way or wants to see it this way and if there’s no problem or the problem is downplayed there’s no need to change anything, is there?
   • Corey 2.3

     11 April 2023 at 5:26 pm

     I agree to an extent, this election is going to be won and lost on the economy, cost of living and housing. Everything else is window dressing.

     The public are hurting, badly and they expect our politicians to be dedicating ALL of their time to the cost of living and housing crises, instead what a furious public see is left wing politicians and activists obsessing over skin colour, gender and sexuality and fighting amongst themselves and the public get angrier.

     None of it puts food on tables or gets people in houses and that's all poll after poll tells us the public care about…. So yes I agree the left in general should stfu about identity politics till after the election

     Buuuut at the same time, certain debates need to be had, the amount of rampant homophobia and misogyny coming from mainstream lefty's is scary to a lot of people.

     When I was growing up it was the right and religious who didn't like gays, now it's the left, media, academia and "queer " organizations that hate gay men and women and call us genital fetishists, bigots, say we chose to be gay and reduce our sexuality to a preference that can be cured by being more open minded and we're not allowed to disagree or we could lose our jobs and be ostracized

     And as for women, if they speak out about any concerns on sex based rights they get called a nazi and lose their jobs and risk getting punched over and having the left celebrate it.

     And that loses us voters too.. not to mention, this is probably the only left wing place in NZ or indeed the internet that won't outright ban users for wanting to have cordial debate about concerns about gender ideology, so it not here, where?

     And while I'd love for the election to be about the issues that matter, this is labour and the Greens we're talking about, they have no intention of campaigning or addressing cost of living and housing beyond band aid tweaks.

     Labour and the Greens have shown zero ability to debate populist soc dem economic policy, their caucuses have almost zero first hand experience with poverty and they can't bring themselves to say the word poverty without the word child being in front of it.

     Without identity politics the NZ has nothing! A few tweaks. A few payment increases.

     So why can lesbians gays and women air their concerns about gender ideology? It's not like the left have anything resembling social democratic economic policies to debate.
3. Reality 3

   11 April 2023 at 8:55 am

   Sanctuary – have to agree with your comments above. When one topic is constantly discussed day after day other important and interesting topics get lost or little opportunity for comment.
   • Bearded Git 3.1

     11 April 2023 at 9:59 am

     And me….the trans issue, though important, tends to dominate the blog at the expense of other key issues.
     • weka 3.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:03 am

       best way to remedy that is to go comment on posts that aren't about women's rights rather than expecting OM to be limited. Generate some discussion on other topics.
       • Shanreagh 3.1.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 10:10 am

         Surely putting up one's own posts is the answer instead of moaning that the ones other posters are discussing are not your cup of tea.

         I don't get that type of comment when the remedy is their own typing fingers and agile minds.
       • Anne 3.1.1.2

         11 April 2023 at 10:48 am

         Come on weka. For some time now when people have tried to introduce another subject, their comments are often cancelled out by a sudden rush of trans and related subjects which leaves the unfortunate commenter's comment alone and unloved.

         I am exaggerating to make a point.
         • Shanreagh 3.1.1.2.1

           11 April 2023 at 11:18 am

           Some are commenting on the maths topic.

           Those putting up topics can keep them going…..

           It is not as if we are limited to the putting these on OM.
         • weka 3.1.1.2.2

           11 April 2023 at 11:18 am

           Nah. The GC debates generate energy which is why people are in them. There are non GC comments today and yet here you are talking about this instead of other topics. Can’t blame the GC debate for that.
           • Anne 3.1.1.2.2.1

             11 April 2023 at 5:48 pm

             Sorry weka but I am not wrong.

             Two weeks ago following the Posie P debacle it was noticeable – not so much now. Soon after some comments appeared on another topic, there was a GC pile-on following it so that it got lost in the melee. I doubt I was the only one who picked it up. It may have been a case where one person made an effort to start off the debate again and that pulled in the rest of them.

             It is not good for this site's previous reputation for wide ranging and mostly informed conversations about topical issues both in NZ and overseas. That I am sure is what pulled in the lurkers who largely never comment but like to read the posts and some may even read the comments.

             I suspect there are those who entered the GC debate on the basis of misinformation being promulgated (not by all commenters of course) and they felt compelled to say something.
             • woodart …

               11 April 2023 at 10:22 pm

               totally agree anne. Im so over it, this is the first time for over a week that Ive looked in to TS. the topic seems to have overwhelmed the site. on behalf of the VAST majority who dont give a phuck about sexuality., can TS have a seperate page for the sex obsessed.
               • Anne …

                 11 April 2023 at 11:54 pm

                 … on behalf of the VAST majority who dont give a phuck about sexuality.,

                 

                 My sentiments too. "Each to his/her own" is my motto. If you are a decent person who is not hurting anyone then go for it.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   12 April 2023 at 7:57 am

                   But that is not the issue Anne.

                   The issue is if intact males are able to enter female safe spaces as per new rules for magically turning a male to a female.

                   The more the actual issue is minimised the more it becomes of concern.

                   As Queen Victoria is alleged to have said I don't care what they do 'as long as it does not frighten the horses'. But that is NOT the issue.

                   I do not believe women should have to give up their safe spaces to cater for males.

                   How about we get men thinking about how to keep non conforming males safe in their spaces or if that is a bridge too far, then we get our best architects/ policy analysts on the job to design/plan for by alocation of $$$, the best spaces that allow for trans people while keeping women safe.

                   I find if difficult to understand why there is still this myth that women are concerned about what other people do sexually. For most/many/all of us who have commented here it has never been about this.

                   The reason why intact or minimally transitioned men will be able to enter women's spaces is because of the changes to the BDM Act allowing men to ostensibly change sex from male to female. And the reason this was a 'shoo in' was becasue of the 'No Debate' self ID that has whipped around the world.

                   Hopefully I have explained it clearly enough so that all who think it is about what people do privately can see this is not the issue/point.

                   There are calls to stop talking about the issue. With the lack of knowledge about what the issue is for women it seems many have remained stuck in their own one track of what they think the issue is.

                   Bwaghorn succinctly summed up the issues here
                   bwaghorn2.1.1.2.1
                   11 April 2023 at 10:15 am

                   Why is it so difficult?
                   • Anne …

                     12 April 2023 at 11:16 am

                     I know he/she used the wrong word, but the rest of the comment is true. "The vast majority who don't give a phuck…"

                     It has been taken to a level beyond that which is appropriate. By all means lobby the government vociferously for whatever changes in the legislation you think would solve the problem.

                     Trans people also have safety fears if this opinion piece is any guide:

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300850151/the-long-shadow-cast-by-the-posie-parker-show
4. Anker 4

   11 April 2023 at 9:13 am

   Look I am willing to take a break from the Gender critical stuff for a week or so, just to give everyone a breather.

   However I don't like the idea of banning a topic, any topic that is.

   The Standard is one of the few places that issue of gender ideology is debated and gender critical people such as myself get a chance to be heard.

   If the msm were doing a balanced job then probably the Standard would not have been the place where the issue got brought up so much. And the recent events around Posie Parker of course escabated that. Women again were silenced, this time by an angry violent mob.

   So look, I'll hold back from GC for a week (I still intend to comment on other issues).

   I am not suggesting this for anyone else. Up to them.

   If I can think of a way that debate could me more constructive about the issue then I will.
   • Beverly 4.1

     11 April 2023 at 9:25 am

     Please don't take a break Anker. I don't comment much but I am an avid reader of this topic – its like this is my community where this topic can be aired – not many places like this. Would banning this topic would be adopting 'No Debate'.?
     • Anker 4.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:44 am

       Thanks Beverly. I agree so few places where GC views get any airing whatsoever.

       I was thinking I would heed some of the voices on this site and stop posting about GC stuff for a week or so and I didn't mean anyone else should do this.

       In posting on GC stuff, I do have the hope that some people who are unsure about the issue will start to read stuff and realize the debate isn't about trans people, but an ideology that is highly problematic.

       Like with any intense arguement, sometimes time out isn't a bad idea.

       An idea I have about the debate is to keep it to the absolute basics (see Bwagons comment) e.g Should someone who identifies as a women but is a biological male be allowed in womens spaces? changing rooms, sport,prisons etc. Almost like a survey, tick yes or no. Then give reasons why. Should we have to use someone's pro nouns yes or no?

       From my point of view the Standard has provided outstanding information from a gender critical view and I thank Weka, Shanreagh, Molly, Sabine, Visu, Roblogic, Gsays, Bwagon, Liberty Belle and my apologies for those who have been left out.

       I am going to make a commitment though. From this afternoon for a week I will refrain from raising GC with the priviso that if there are any significant developements I reserve the right to comment.

       I would be utterly against a ban though
       • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 11:24 am

         An idea I have about the debate is to keep it to the absolute basics (see Bwagons comment) e.g Should someone who identifies as a women but is a biological male be allowed in womens spaces? changing rooms, sport,prisons etc. Almost like a survey, tick yes or no. Then give reasons why. Should we have to use someone's pro nouns yes or no?

         That is a great idea.

         I think the ones ticking yes could be the ones who could be asked to do the explainer. Other than these

         transwomen are women, which is not an argument more of a circle.

         and

         it’s basic human rights?

         I have not read any arguments for the concept
       • gsays 4.1.1.2

         11 April 2023 at 4:54 pm

         Don't be too harsh on yrself. I have learnt, grown and had a few attitudes shift during this debate.

         It is a welcome break from the willie-waving war porn,
   • weka 4.2

     11 April 2023 at 10:04 am

     it won't be banned. At some point I might put up some dedicated posts like we have for other hot topics in the past, and ask that people comment there.
     • dvT 4.2.1

       11 April 2023 at 11:02 am

       Yes that is a good idea.
   • bwaghorn 4.3

     11 April 2023 at 10:18 am

     In the past when there been tooic that takes huge band width it's had its own daily post, that's the best option in this case

     I see weha is planning that as we type
     • Incognito 4.3.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:20 am

       I’ve suggested this. It was declined.

       I even made a logo.
       • weka 4.3.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 10:28 am

         where did you suggest that?
         • Incognito 4.3.1.1.1

           11 April 2023 at 10:36 am

           In the back-end. Can’t remember exactly when. I remember seeing the bush fires flaring up frequently then too here and that it was having a divisive negative effect on TS. Things are worse now, IMO.
           • weka 4.3.1.1.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 10:39 am

             ah, so not GC debate, but something more general? What was the idea?
             • Incognito …

               11 April 2023 at 10:56 am

               WTF?
               • weka …

                 11 April 2023 at 11:14 am

                 Bwaghorn: can GC debate be shifted to its own daily post?

                 Incog: I suggested this a few years ago and made a logo

                 weka: ok, not GC debate posts but something more general? What was your idea?

                 Incog: wtf?

                 weka: if you don’t understand can you please explain?
     • weka 4.3.2

       11 April 2023 at 10:27 am

       it does take a fair amount of work. I'm tossing up whether it's more work than what I'm having to currently do. Also waiting to see if things settle down post KJK, and whether the right are intent on making it an election issue.
       • tsmithfield 4.3.2.1

         11 April 2023 at 11:11 am

         Weka, my suggestion is that you could do realitively short, concise posts on the topic for comment focussed on specific issues. Then, the topic stays available for comment, but doesn't require huge amounts of work and research.
         • weka 4.3.2.1.1

           11 April 2023 at 11:14 am

           The work is in the set up, the moderation and herding cats.
           • weka 4.3.2.1.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 11:16 am

             Eg I’m on my phone right now which on its own doubles moderation work
             • Red Blooded One …

               11 April 2023 at 3:55 pm

               I made this suggestion (sorry I don't know how to create a link to it)

               Comment:Open mike 30/09/2021

               I certainly don't support banning a topic but if there had been a "Daily GC Chat" thread the animosity that has developed (on both sides of the argument) may not have developed.
               • weka …

                 11 April 2023 at 8:13 pm

                 are you sure that's the right date?

                 If you click on the time/date stamp of any comment, it changes the address in the address bar to a permanent direct link. You can then copy and paste it into a comment (put a . at the start so it embeds right).
                 • Red Blooded One …

                   11 April 2023 at 8:36 pm

                   .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-09-2021/#comment-1820120

                   Thanks Weka, and my apologies, it was addressed to The Moderators and rereading it you weren't part of any of that thread, but I stand by the suggestion that a Daily GC Chat would give everyone the option of sharing their opinions without monopolising Open Mike.
                   • weka …

                     11 April 2023 at 8:46 pm

                     thanks. It's something I've been thinking about, but it's a workload thing.
                   • Red Blooded One …

                     11 April 2023 at 8:46 pm

                     . https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-09-2021/#comment-1820338

                     If it helps this was way down the thread. You must have been away and responded later. Cheers.
                   • weka []

                     12 April 2023 at 8:03 am

                     Thanks! That helped me find the back end thread.

                     the main difference between the BDMRR debate and now is that then there were lots of days when there were no comments on that topic. Atm there are comments on gender/sex daily. I’ll have a look this week at putting up a dedicated post, it won’t be daily but people can keep commenting under it over successive days. Maybe a new post a few times a week.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   12 April 2023 at 7:31 am

                   I'm sure that many of us have got the message here. No support for womens rights, again.

                   It is seemingly Ok for intact males to share the safe spaces with women. Play sports against women, share prisons with women etc.

                   Just so we know. That is the issue.
                   • weka …

                     12 April 2023 at 8:07 am

                     Not really. From a moderator perspective hot topics having a dedicated post can improve debate.

                     when this was raised during the BDMRR debate, it looked like some people wanted the conversations to not be happening, but here the overriding issue is simply whether OM is overloaded.

                     there’s a risk that dedicated posts will end up being an echo chamber of GCs. If that happens I suggest using the threads to do something constructive 😈
                   • Shanreagh …

                     12 April 2023 at 8:19 am

                     My sole reason for saying is so as not to add to your workload.

                     It seems that the possible inablity for others to cope with scrolling past an issue they are not interested in means that to meet these 'concerns' the workload fall on another person.

                     I did ask if it was a data/tech problem as I used to have when I was on my old dial up. If it is a tech problem then by all means look for a way around this and separate topics might be a way

                     I have the idea though it is not this but a 'I can't be bothered with this issue and so everyone who is should go away'

                     If you, on whom the solution rests, are happy then that is fine. perhaps the ones with the concerns could lend a hand moderating or post writing. (you know learning by doing)
                   • weka []

                     12 April 2023 at 9:12 am

                     you seem to be missing the point Shanreagh. If OM gets overloaded on a hot topic (it happens periodically, it’s not about gender/sex), then debate improves when we create dedicated posts. I’ve been waiting until it’s been sufficient a problem to warrant spending my time on it. People wanting the gender/sex debate to go away aren’t my primary motivation (or any motivation at all really). People saying that there’s too much and OM is overloaded matters.
5. tsmithfield 5

   11 April 2023 at 9:37 am

   I think this whole area of the increasing influence of state and media on our lives needs to be debated, given there is an election coming up.

   I see a useful analogy being that of an incoming tide.

   For some of us, especially on the right, we feel we have been flooded years ago. However, the tide seems to keep coming in, progressively swamping those with more liberal mindsets. So, eventually, we all feel we are in the same situation of being flooded by ideology we don't want.

   However, at its core is the same ideology. It is just creeping further and further into our lives.
   • Tony Veitch 5.1

     11 April 2023 at 10:22 am

     Smithy, welcome to a country/globe coping with a climate catastrophe.

     There is no way, no way 'individual rights' will overcome the climate crisis. That will take concerted state action – ie, the state will have to become much more intrusive in our everyday lives – if we are going to have a snowball's hope in hell of getting through what's coming.
     • tsmithfield 5.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 10:46 am

       the state will have to become much more intrusive in our everyday lives – if we are going to have a snowball's hope in hell of getting through what's coming.

       I would probably agree with you on that score if states (with the emphasis on states) can get their act together in a co-ordinated manner. Especially the large ones who are the biggest contributors to the problem. If they can't then I really do despair.

       I have already suggested in earlier posts that there needs to be an internationally co-ordinated approach for how we do farming, with farming taking place in the most productive parts of the world so the planet can be fed and carbon emissions from agriculture minimised.

       But we are talking about an existential crisis for many in this case.

       However, a lot of the other stuff I am concerned about has nothing to do with an existential crisis. But more to do with creeping state control and intrusion into our lives.
   • AB 5.2

     11 April 2023 at 10:24 am

     Well-ordered, legitimate democratic states are much less of a threat to our freedom than the unaccountable and unelected private power that results from having lots of money. As TV implies at 5.1, it is this private power that has stalled state action on climate change.
     Put another way, the greatest threat to our freedom is inequality. That formulation, which is true, stands on its head the nonsensical neoliberal formulation, that inequality is a sign of our freedom
     • tsmithfield 5.2.1

       11 April 2023 at 11:21 am

       Put another way, the greatest threat to our freedom is inequality.

       I actually agree with you, and see that inequality so far as education goes is the most important area of inequality.

       IMO people who go to a state school should be able to expect a standard of education that equates to what children from rich parents can get from a private school. Hence, why I have been banging on about this topic.

       I believe that good education is the doorway out of poverty, as I am sure many could attest to.
     • Patricia Bremner 5.2.2

       11 April 2023 at 5:24 pm

       Great comment AB.
   • Anker 5.3

     11 April 2023 at 10:45 am

     Nailed it Tsmithfield. 100%
6. weka 6

   11 April 2023 at 11:20 am

   Meanwhile, TRAs are promoting suicide. This is fucked up for its primary message but it also contaminates NZ’s already dangerous culture around suicide.

   https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1645553757269409793
   • Roy Cartland 6.1

     11 April 2023 at 11:34 am

     Are we sure this is TRAs and not some false flag op? How the hell is this supposed to attract anyone to the cause? Just grotesque, whichever it is.
     • weka 6.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 11:41 am

       Could be a false flag op. But it’s consistent with TRA approaches so either way genderist progressives need to stop denying the problems and step up and address them.
     • SPC 6.1.2

       11 April 2023 at 11:59 am

       Possibly. Which political party wants people to discuss this issue when they get to work – and wants workplace consequences stories in the public media?
       • weka 6.1.2.1

         11 April 2023 at 1:45 pm

         which activist community wants to cast all criticism of gender ideology as fascist and promotes violence against GC women?
         • Shanreagh 6.1.2.1.1

           12 April 2023 at 7:35 am

           Do you know I am sure this is going to be put in the too hard basket by NZ Police just like the assault by a transactivist on a 71 year old woman on 25/3/23 seems to have been.

           Also in the basket is unactioned thoughts and plans to police public events so that they do not not get overrun by antis,
7. Peter 7

   11 April 2023 at 11:50 am

   Another weird chapter is being played out in the bizarre world of US politics with Donald Trump moving to block Mike Pence from testifying in the special counsel's Jan. 6 probe.

   When the Jan 6 Committee was organised claims were made that those who had vital information wouldn't be heard. To accentuate the point Jim Jordan violated House ethics by defying subpoenas to appear. Those who had most intimate knowledge and involvement refused to give evidence then complained that the 'true story' wasn't coming out.

   It seems now Pence won't appeal a federal judge's order that he testify before the grand jury in special counsel Jack Smith’s investigation so maybe more of the real story will emerge.

   Clearly Trump wanted Pence, in whatever way, to be 'taken out' on Jan 6. Now he's is trying other strategies to shut him up.

   https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-moves-block-pence-testifying-jan-6-probe-rcna78962
   • joe90 7.1

     11 April 2023 at 12:18 pm

     He's being treated like the mobster he is, too.

     Some weeks after cloaking a jury in complete anonymity to preside over E. Jean Carroll’s lawsuit accusing former President Donald Trump of rape, a federal judge refused to relax that ruling even enough to confidentially share their identities with the attorneys.

     Senior U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan said he couldn’t issue such an order in “good conscience,” especially in light of Trump’s continuing attacks on the jurist presiding over the former president’s criminal case.

     https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/e-jean-carroll-rape-suit/citing-trumps-attacks-on-hush-money-judge-court-keeps-e-jean-carroll-rape-jury-completely-anonymous/
8. tsmithfield 8

   11 April 2023 at 12:24 pm

   Something else that concerns me about our education system is that it appears to be churning out people who have lost the ability to debate issues in a reasoned fashion.

   It seems that today, the only way many see to counter views they dislike is to shout people down and belittle them with irrational claims about them being Nazis or whatever. We see this a lot in cancel culture, where the goal seems to be to challenge ideas by preventing them from being voiced, rather than by countering those views with better ideas.

   I really don't know how this method of dealing with uncomfortable ideas has developed. Is it perhaps because schools overemphasise the value of protest? And, protest certainly has its place. But, I think the contest of ideas needs to be won first.
   • SPC 8.1

     11 April 2023 at 12:34 pm

     Have you read of the schools programme of the Governor of Florida?
     • tsmithfield 8.1.1

       11 April 2023 at 12:46 pm

       I just googled that. It looks like a giant pendulum swing in the opposite direction.

       https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/23593369/ron-desantis-florida-schools-higher-education-woke

       This often happens when views become so extreme in one direction that many become concerned and reject said views.

       I certainly would agree with the sentiment of a lot of what is suggested, in that I think my views are fairly clear that a lot of this stuff falls well outside the responsibility of schools to provide a good grounding in core subjects.

       But, whether it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater? It certainly seems a very hard core rejection of woke culture.

       I haven't given it enough thought to have a firm view on that. Banning books etc seems a bit extreme, and seems to be taking a similar approach to many of the “woke” academics who have been doing the same sort of thing in the opposite direction.
       • Sabine 8.1.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 1:02 pm

         The nature of a pendulum is that it swings both sides. Life is very much a pendulum, and always remember ' this too shall pass' be it good, bad or just mediocre.

         Banning books or 'challenging them' is quite a normal thing and is happening to many many books in the US. A list here

         https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/classics

         Animal Farm, The catcher of the rye, 1984, Slaughterhouse 5 and some more……so many classics.
         • tsmithfield 8.1.1.1.1

           11 April 2023 at 1:14 pm

           And some of Dr Seus's books etc so far as children's books go.

           I don't think banning books, or banning people from speaking etc does any good for a cause ultimately. All ideas are contestable IMO and should be available to read. As should books or information that counter views expressed in said books.

           I had a valuable lesson in this as a teenager. I was right into a book called “Chariots of the Gods” by Erich Von Daniken. The thesis of his book was that ancient technology could only be explained by earth being visited by aliens, and the result being a quantum leap in human knowledge.

           However, my mother was very wise, and gave me another book “Crash go the chariots”. This book dismantled the Von Daniken’s thesis completely.

           The unwise approach would have been for her to take the Von Daniken’s book away and forbid me from reading it.
           • Molly 8.1.1.1.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 2:03 pm

             Going to see the movie "The Chariots of the Gods" was a scheduled school trip for Standards 1- 4, Form 1&2 at my primary school.

             Other movie outings were:

             Watership Down, Beautiful People, The Gods Must Be Crazy, the animation of Lord if the Rings.
             • Belladonna …

               11 April 2023 at 4:33 pm

               Huff! Much better than our school. Movie outing? You've got to be kidding!
               • Molly …

                 11 April 2023 at 5:20 pm

                 70's NZ mid-lower class area with mixed demographic.

                 Movie outings were rare, I think I've recalled all from the eight years there. They were often end-of-the year celebrations.
             • Anker …

               11 April 2023 at 7:10 pm

               Mary Poppins for us. but so loved it!
             • Descendant Of Smith …

               11 April 2023 at 11:10 pm

               Johnathon Livingstone Seagull and 2001 Space Odyssey for us.
               • Molly …

                 12 April 2023 at 9:09 am

                 Forgot about Johnathon Livingstone Seagull!

                 (Still haven’t made it through 2001 Space Odyssey …)
           • Belladonna 8.1.1.1.1.2

             11 April 2023 at 4:32 pm

             I enjoyed Von Daniken. Not that I believed it, but it's like Fantasy fiction … 'what if' it were true!

             There's a lovely reference in one of David Brin's novels – ("Sundiver" I think) – where there really are aliens, and they are massively insulted by the Von Danikenite assumption that they would have just walked off and abandoned the primitive cultures!
             • tsmithfield …

               11 April 2023 at 4:38 pm

               I was a gullible teenager back then, so was quite taken in by it until I read the book my mother gave me.

               But some of the stuff in there was still incredibly interesting. Like those massive ground paintings of animals and such in Peru I think, that can only be viewed from the air. I think Van Daniken argued that they were to guide in space ships or something similar.

               But, I think a more logical explanation is that they were sun god worshippers back then, and so probably thought they were making things big enough to be seen by their god as it was.

               https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/nazca-lines-peru
               • Belladonna …

                 11 April 2023 at 9:23 pm

                 Von Daniken always reminded me of the 'just so stories' (how the elephant got it's trunk) – inventing a story to explain a physical artefact – based on internal 'logic' rather than external validated data.

                 Nice storytelling. But not science.
               • Sabine …

                 12 April 2023 at 12:37 pm

                 I was not allowed to read certain books at the convent, so at age 9 i head read all the roman catholic gore that exists, and there is a lot of it. Believe me there are not many patron saints that did not die horrible death of burnings, stabbings, removing the intestines, quartering/drawing, drowning, rape, etc etc etc etc.

                 St. Sabine was either devoured by a lion, or killed otherwise in the circus for not wanting to sex with the murderer of her husband.

                 Sometimes what is forbidden might be an easier read then what is allowed.
           • Descendant Of Smith 8.1.1.1.1.3

             11 April 2023 at 11:08 pm

             The books were not banned and nor was there public pressure to do so.

             https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/07/dr-seuss-books-product-recall-cancel-culture

             Geisel’s stepdaughter, Lark Grey Dimond-Cates, told the New York Post there “wasn’t a racist bone in that man’s body”, but also said suspending publication of the six titles was “a wise decision”. But the controversy left many perplexed, since the decision was made by Dr Seuss Enterprises and not as a result of public pressure that has preceded other such decisions.

             Nel said the decision to no longer publish titles that include racist caricatures showed just one way to address problematic material.

             “[The books are] not going to disappear,” he said. “They’re not being banned. They’re not being cancelled. It’s just a decision to no longer sell them.”
     • Peter 8.1.2

       11 April 2023 at 2:21 pm

       The Governor of Florida gets bad press. When I saw a headline "No One Is Talking About What Ron DeSantis Has Actually Done to Florida" I presumed I'd see the ledger put right. Wrong.

       https://time.com/6266618/ron-desantis-florida-governance-essay/
   • Shanreagh 8.2

     11 April 2023 at 1:29 pm

     We discussed this a little after the parliamentary protest when we were pondering, well some of us were, how to prevent people from being swayed by basically hoax material. Critical thinking etc, in the old sense of the word. Sharpening our wits etc

     I'll try to find and link back.
   • Peter 8.3

     11 April 2023 at 1:59 pm

     Is people losing the ability to debate issues in a reasoned fashion the fault of the formal education system? Did you mean society is churning out people who have lost the ability to debate issues in a reasoned fashion?
     • tsmithfield 8.3.1

       11 April 2023 at 2:04 pm

       Quite possibly. And, of course, our education system fits within our society, so it could be a bit of both.
       • Belladonna 8.3.1.1

         11 April 2023 at 4:35 pm

         Kids are strongly discouraged from debate – there is the 'received wisdom' and arguing a contrary point of view will get you a trip to the principal – because you are racist/sexist/phobic or whatever other buzzword you've offended against.

         Your teachers and peers are special snowflakes, who are wholly unable to cope with a different viewpoint.
         • Stephen 8.3.1.1.1

           11 April 2023 at 7:15 pm

           What bullshit.

           Debate is encouraged, and critical thinking thought.

           Your understanding of the current education system is somewhat dated.
           • Belladonna 8.3.1.1.1.1

             11 April 2023 at 8:10 pm

             I don't think so. Kids in the school system right now.

             As a parent, I've been summoned in to the principal's office to 'discuss' why my kid is questioning the teacher's point of view.

             How about you? What's your perspective on the school system?
             • Incognito …

               11 April 2023 at 10:00 pm

               Questioning or arguing with a teacher, in class, is not the same as class-debate, is it?
               • Belladonna …

                 11 April 2023 at 10:07 pm

                 Class debate isn't a thing – certainly not in primary school.
   • Incognito 8.4

     11 April 2023 at 4:55 pm

     What do you think the average of debater is here on TS?

     What you’re describing, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, must have been going for yonks, by the looks of it.
   • pat 8.5

     11 April 2023 at 7:24 pm

     The new religion?…the west (mainly) has abandoned formal religions and so creates de facto replacements…and we have become increasingly sectarian…some align with Mammon, others hedonism.and a multitude of alternatives.

     But it appears many are seeking meaning(?) as a replacement….perhaps our ancestors understood something we have forgotten?…and yet the argument against formal religion is valid.

     Where to?
9. Anker 9

   11 April 2023 at 1:02 pm

   https://www.patreon.com/posts/terms-of-into-81119691

   I am sorry I know this won’t appeal to everyone’s sense of humour. So a warning, if you are tried and true Greens, you may not enjoy this
   • SPC 9.1

     11 April 2023 at 1:19 pm
   • Shanreagh 9.2

     11 April 2023 at 1:21 pm

     Ha ha as my former boss Labour Minister) used to say 'once they start laughing at you….'The Greens and Hipkins may find that laughter has a duration they were not expecting.
   • Roy Cartland 9.3

     11 April 2023 at 4:57 pm

     Well as far as Dancehall Riddims go, she could have done a lot worse:

     Shaggy, My Cry, Crybaby Riddim:

     https://youtu.be/kSJqMi3j32E?list=PL0988F4F0277D9F87
10. joe90 10

    11 April 2023 at 1:19 pm

    The good ole boys would've loved this.

    https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1645563847552663552

    https://www.npr.org/2023/04/10/1169154500/tennessee-rep-justin-jones-unanimously-reappointed-to-house-by-nashville-council
    • Sanctuary 10.1

      11 April 2023 at 3:18 pm

      Justin Jones shows the power of oratory, steeped in the glorious rythms and language of the black preachers like MLK. He really kicks of at about the five minute mark, searing stuff.
      • Ad 10.1.1

        11 April 2023 at 3:45 pm

        Just awesome thanks Sanctuary.

        Uplifting.
11. Shanreagh 11

    11 April 2023 at 2:50 pm

    One of my law tutors, Hon Simon France, died on 8/4/23. Our tutorial groups were small that year.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/131731201/court-of-appeal-judge-simon-france-dies

    “Simon was respected and loved by his former students, by his colleagues from his years in practice, and by his judicial peers."
12. Joe90 12

    11 April 2023 at 5:07 pm

    lol

    https://twitter.com/theplatform_nz/status/1645635856357801984

    Ardern’s office told The Spinoff that the listing is fake – and Ardern herself had no idea it existed. “Ms Ardern was not aware of this website page before now, and the listing is certainly not authorised by her,” a government spokesperson said.

    Despite this, Sean Plunket’s media outlet The Platform has pushed the idea that Ardern has been hiding her new speaking engagement from the public. A post on The Platform’s Facebook yesterday teased “the new job Ardern doesn’t want you to know about” and said that Plunket would be revealing the “untold truth” on Tuesday morning. “A truth legacy media kept secret or didn’t want to ask about,” the post continued. The claims were shared by users on Twitter.

    Plunket later tweeted: “nice work if you can get it” with a screenshot of the fake Ardern listing.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/11-04-2023/no-jacinda-ardern-isnt-joining-the-paid-speaker-circuit
    • Incognito 12.1

      11 April 2023 at 5:40 pm

      Surely, Sean should not have done that, but he’s a good man
      • Molly 12.1.1

        11 April 2023 at 7:45 pm

        Why do you think he's a good man?

        He's never struck me as particularly good.
        • Incognito 12.1.1.1

          11 April 2023 at 9:58 pm

          We obviously need larger emoticons.

          Good is what good does.

          See joe90’s comment to which I replied and form your own judgement.

          PS I had another longer answer for you typed out but my sense of humour is not welcome here and I don’t really want to rile up others. It’s a pity because it is actually quite good 😉
          • Molly 12.1.1.1.1

            12 April 2023 at 9:07 am

            Sure, . Couldn't find the "good" reference in joe90's comment so it appeared to come out of the blue – now I know it came out of you.

            (Now I've inflicted bad rhyming humour on TS, your efforts will be a step up. I'm sure any levity will be appreciated ATM.)
13. Incognito 13

    11 April 2023 at 5:37 pm

    An insightful article on declining trust in the media that contains good info & analysis.

    “People are really grumpy with the government and if you go through a pandemic, a cyclone – all the things that New Zealand's been through – emotionally, you want to take it out on someone,” he said.

    …

    There's a whole lot of feelings that come up for people who are news consumers, and even if it's falling parallel to the loss of trust in government or education or other things in an increasingly polarised society … trust is falling and it is a big issue,” he said.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018885345/mediawatch-turning-off-the-news
14. newsense 14

    12 April 2023 at 12:09 am

    So time to do a Chasers style collection for the farmers, from people who’ve just lost their home to a flood or just from the rest of us struggling with inflation?

    Cost of climate inaction NRT

    ‘And on that point, we should remember that any failure to meet our Paris target can be laid at the feet of one noisy, greedy, selfish group: farmers. Less than 5% of the population, they produce 50% of our emissions, and are refusing to reduce them. …

    …

    Their refusal is on-track to cost us $24 billion. Its only fair that they should be the ones who pay for it.’

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