Jacindamania – international edition

Written By: - Date published: 9:45 am, August 25th, 2017 - 137 comments
Categories: jacinda ardern, Media - Tags: , , ,

It can’t be many tiny countries that have a leader of the opposition make positive international headlines, but Jacinda Ardern has managed it. Sydney Morning Herald:

Jacinda Ardern: a breath of fresh air from New Zealand

Something amazing has been happening in New Zealand.

At the start of August, the country’s Labour opposition was facing electoral annihilation. Opinion polls had support for the party at about 24 per cent, which was so horrifying it prompted Labour leader Andrew Little to quit, just two months out from a general election.

Into this great void stepped Little’s deputy Jacinda Ardern, who worked in the UK’s Cabinet and Home offices before she was elected to New Zealand’s Parliament in 2008 and deputy party leader earlier this year.

And yet, fast forward three weeks and New Zealand is gripped by the “Jacinda Effect”.

Labour’s standing in the polls has leapt to 37 per cent, putting the party in with a genuine chance against the conservative National Party. Ardern is already earning comparisons to Justin Trudeau, Emmanuel Macron and Barack Obama as the opposition is flooded with support. In the 10 days after Ardern took over the leadership, Labour reportedly received almost $500,000 in donations with some 3500 volunteers coming forward. …

The Guardian:

New Zealand gripped by ‘Jacindamania’ as new Labour leader soars in polls

Charisma and a refreshing openness are helping Jacinda Ardern close the gap on Bill English
…
“The Jacinda effect, also known as ‘Jacindamania’, has been looming for a long time because she is a politician who has been a rising star, and someone with a strong X-factor and charismatic personality for a few years now.”

“At this point the Labour party seems to have gone from a grey old party with a lot of doom and gloom about them, to a party of Corbynesque excitement; and similar support,” he said, referring to the unexpectedly strong electoral showing by the UK Labour party in June under Jeremy Corbyn.

Ardern, 37, a sometime DJ who said she’d like New Zealand band Fat Freddy’s Drop to play at parliament if she was elected as PM, has been compared to other “rock-star” politicians around the world, including Justin Trudeau, Tony Blair, former New Zealand prime minister John Key – and even Barack Obama.
…
But Jennifer Lees-Marshment, associate professor of the school of politics and international relations at Auckland University, believes there is depth to Ardern’s success that goes beyond charisma. She has what every politician craves: people trust her.

“What Jacinda has is not just rock-star appeal,” said Lees-Marshment.

“Jacinda, Trudeau, Tony Blair, John Key, even Obama. They have a real ability to connect with people. They speak about the issues people really care about and then they speak about what they can do about it – they’re aspirational. And they are aware of the deep fears and concerns out there – but they are hopeful. They offer positivity to the negativity of problems.” …

Not bad reviews!

Locally yesterday:
https://twitter.com/grantrobertson1/status/900626699771035648

137 comments on “Jacindamania – international edition ”

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  1. Robert Guyton 1
    25 August 2017 at 10:06 am

    For the Left – Jacindamania!!!
    For the Right – Jacindaphobia!
    Both create heat; invigorating and uplifting for the “maniacs”, withering and desiccating for the phobics. 32% prefer Jacinda over Bill to lead the country! Already! Astonishing!
    Wither away, phobics!

    • patricia bremner 1.1
      25 August 2017 at 10:32 am

      Jacinda obviously impressed other Leaders and was encouraged and she worked incredibly hard and rose through the ranks.

      Fortunately, Labour had Andrew Little’s Team building to give a sound foundation on which she is shining.

      Jacinda and Andrew’s hug at the Auckland rally said it all. Empathy trust and respect. Qualities we have hungered for.

      Jacinda repesents our better more hopeful inclusive selves. Long may it continue.

      Labour has managed to bring about change while in opposition, now watch them in Government.

      • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 11:53 am

        I like the way Andrew Little was honoured, twice, receiving applause from all , and then secondly when Adern hugged Little. Both times he recieved loud applause .

        Because its recognized that it was by and large Little who brought cohesion between the various factions , and did so in a quiet way,… he demonstrated his expertise in negotiating and creating group unity , setting the stage for Adern.

        And I think people gained even more enthusiasm for Labour in seeing that honouring. Maybe a small point , but it showed a sense of values and unity in of itself and people want that in a govt.

      • North 1.1.2
        25 August 2017 at 3:55 pm

        Music in your comment there patricia bremner ! Thank you. See that picture with the kids. Wow !

    • Agora 1.2
      26 August 2017 at 11:47 am

      I have a problem with “Jacindmania”.

      Mania involves irrational extremes of emotion.

      There is nothing irrational about enthusiam for a change of of policy under a Labour government led by Ms. Jacinda Adern.

  2. esoteric pineapples 2
    25 August 2017 at 10:29 am

    I think this shows how important a popular leader is to a party’s fortunes

    • Carolyn_nth 3.1
      25 August 2017 at 10:43 am

      Interesting analysis by Gould. It is very good to see that NACT are going down, and that the government will change this year.

      I agree that personality and personal popularity are useful to the left, but they alone are not sufficient for a strong left wing political party…

      …nor even are specific policies; but the underlying values are very important in the long term.

      I have seen popular leaders come and go internationally, raising hopes for profound change for the people, and especially for those on low incomes, and otherwise at the margins of society. But, long term, such hopes are never really realised, and in some ways, have been completely dashed.

      Other leaders I have seen internationally, who have engendered a lot of excitement and popular following, only to disappoint: Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Barack Obama. And they have been followed by even more brutal right wing governments.

      I was also reading this today, about the contradictory appeal and performance of left wing parties (from a socialist perspective).

      Ultimately, in deciding who to vote for, I don’t follow the leaders with the most popular media coverage (anyway, we don’t vote for leaders, we vote for parties, their policies, values and list candidates; and we vote for electorate MPs).

      And for the left to be strong in the future, we need a strong flax-roots left movement, and not just give over leadership to politicians.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 1:54 pm

        Thanks Carolyn_nth for a bit of down to earth sensible balance in your comment.

        I guess we will just have to hurry up and wait to see how JA pans out, but I thought mentioning Bill Clinton, Tony Blair and Barack Obama in your comment is feeling about the right fit from what I have seen and heard so far.

        Good link too, it should get published in it’s entirety on this forum to create an interesting debate.

      • marty mars 3.1.2
        25 August 2017 at 5:08 pm

        The disappointments of the past don’t guarantee disappointments in the future. Might be time to sit back and allow the future to unfold then deal with what happens instead of the fear. I say that with compassion for the dissapointments we have all experienced politically. And even though im cynical in general im trying to apply this now.

        • Carolyn_nth 3.1.2.1
          26 August 2017 at 6:24 am

          In the past I’ve sat back and watched hopefully. Why would I keep setting myself up for disappointment when I see same warning signs,. And there are counter-balancing left wing alternatives to jumping on the latest bandwagon – especially a bandwagon the likes of Gower seem to be encouraging?

          • marty mars 3.1.2.1.1
            26 August 2017 at 7:30 am

            So you’re going to keep voicing your concerns to those that enthusiastically support her and you will vote for a different party. Okay, seems slightly negative and not in alignment with getting rid of the gnats to me but everyone makes their choices and I respect that.

    • patricia bremner 3.2
      25 August 2017 at 1:59 pm

      No, Jacinda is special.

      When did John Key show empathy trust and respect????

      • Carolyn_nth 3.2.1
        26 August 2017 at 6:26 am

        Still waiting to find out in Ardern’s case. Was not encouraged by her distancing herself from Turei and the beneficiaries she spoke for. Nor when she announced not reversing tax cuts to the top earners.

  4. Anne 4
    25 August 2017 at 10:33 am

    Among the clutter of boring billboards the new Labour bill-board shines out like the morning star. It is taller and narrower than the obligatory 4 by 4 we usually see, and features a glowing Jacinda dressed in muted shades of white and beige with pale pink surroundings and bright red lettering. The other polly parties might as well remove theirs for all the notice anyone is going to take of them. 😉

    Labour appear to finally have the right people who know how to run a successfull campaign – she says crossing her fingers tightly.

    • alwyn 4.1
      25 August 2017 at 12:38 pm

      There is one just down the road from my home. It proclaims the most B*S claim I have ever seen on an election poster. It makes a very simple and completely unqualified claim
      “Free Education”.

      I have often thought I would like to do another course of study. I think I shall go to University and do a music degree. I want to study Baroque music from the 17th century. Now I am at least partially retired I will have the time and clearly, if the Labour Party are not lying in this ad, there will be no fees charged for any education I might choose to undertake. After all, their promise is that it will be “FREE”.
      It must be true.The new shining light of the left wouldn’t be lying would she?

      • Muttonbird 4.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 12:46 pm

        There will be night classes for seniors which is probably what you’re looking at. Talking books and stuff like that.

        • Siobhan 4.1.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 2:08 pm

          “Reinstate funding for programmes – like night classes “…probably the best thing I’ve heard all week….night classes are probably one of the few places in our society where people of all classes, and ethnicities, and genders, and ages, can sit side by side as equals, all there to learn and listen.

          Its called building Community Cohesion…a concept entirely foreign to the National Party, who are unable to think beyond rugby games, flag referendums and badly made pizza.

          • lprent 4.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2017 at 3:48 pm

            …night classes are probably one of the few places in our society where people of all classes, and ethnicities, and genders, and ages, can sit side by side as equals, all there to learn and listen.

            Works too. Night school was how my mother managed to go back to school in the 1960s while in her late 20s after she’d had 3 kids to get UE and the confidence to go and do a BA. Bets damn thing that ever happened to her. She then went on to head into running HR. She was the first of my extended family to do tertiary, but certainly not the last.

            The effect was just as great on me. It was the direct reason why I went off and did a degree and in particular a science degree. After sitting through her lectures and reading all of her books, there was no way I was going to do anything you couldn’t statistically measure to a reasonable significance level with a reasonable sample size.

            Anyway, it is pretty easy to see why National wanted to kick that second chance educational ladder away. It caused their precious children problems because their basic incompetence became somewhat more apparent when exposed to competition.

        • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.2
          25 August 2017 at 3:03 pm

          Muttonbird – elegant slight, deftly delivered.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.2
        25 August 2017 at 4:01 pm

        I have often thought I would like to do another course of study. I think I shall go to University and do a music degree. I want to study Baroque music from the 17th century.

        I’ll look forward to your first album/doctoral thesis.

        For some strange reason you seem to think that you shouldn’t be able to up-skill yourself just because you’re nearing retirement. Personally, I think that’s a great time to do so.

        In fact, I consider learning something that should be done throughout a person’s life and that our present system the prevents that learning is a gross stupidity.

      • McFlock 4.1.3
        25 August 2017 at 4:12 pm

        Are you sure you can Handel it?

      • Agora 4.1.4
        26 August 2017 at 8:59 am

        Alwyn, it is just what you need for premature dementia.

        You won’t find it in Bill’s nationalist party (nationalism being the last refuge of the scoundrel).

        • alwyn 4.1.4.1
          26 August 2017 at 6:36 pm

          “premature dementia”.
          You are recommending this are you?
          Oh dear, I feel so sorry for you. Do you find it is helping to slow down the progression of the disease or are you succumbing just as fast?

      • Stuart Munro 4.1.5
        26 August 2017 at 10:28 am

        Try U3A – everyone in it loves it.

      • Bob (Northland) 4.1.6
        26 August 2017 at 12:21 pm

        Rather different to ” free” Model Sheep Farms in the desert of Saudi Arabia, or “free” $36 million flag referendums, or “free” Irrigation Schemes for privately owned Dairy Farms, to name but a few “free” items offered by this current Government which add nothing to our Country.

  5. Enough is Enough 5
    25 August 2017 at 10:54 am

    Do we really need to be involving ourselves in this mania r0b?

    We all hope that the left wins this election but surely want it to be on the back of great policy and the team rather than this media frenzy and cult of personality.

    • Muttonbird 5.1
      25 August 2017 at 11:02 am

      What do you mean ‘we’? I thought you were a RWNJ. Apologies if I have you confused with someone else.

    • Anne 5.2
      25 August 2017 at 11:06 am

      Since we spent nine years putting up with a media and cult of personality frenzy over John Key, we are entitled to a little satisfaction watching the sycophantic media go into a free falling love-in over Jacinda Ardern. But in the end it will be policy that counts and Labour has some very good policies to back up the Jacinda effect. It just takes time to filter through to the pundits and voters.

    • Macro 5.3
      25 August 2017 at 11:15 am

      Hear! Hear!
      I certainly don’t see any great leap to the left occurring after the 23 Sep – just more of the same brought to you with a friendly smile.
      As for the poor and dispossessed……
      Well we haven’t heard much about them in the past few weeks.
      Meanwhile – here in Thames – the foodbank is running 6% above last year’s record numbers, and is at capacity. The out look for Christmas – when demand peaks – is grim, and the with the recent loss of 100+ jobs from the A&G Price closure, things will deteriorate even further.

      • WILD KATIPO 5.3.1
        25 August 2017 at 12:00 pm

        In general lower waged / unemployed people will be doing far better under Labour than National. It may not be the massive sweeping changes we would like at first , but I would say it will be an improvement. I also believe this is why it is crucial to have the Greens right alongside Labour. For those very concerns you mention the Greens will be essential.

        • Macro 5.3.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 1:14 pm

          Have you any evidence for the assertion that the lower waged will be better off?
          Their current policy is to raise the minimum wage by…….
          wait for it…..
          75 cents!
          whopp de shit!
          Even National managed 50 cents on occassions.
          And as for those unable to work?
          Well a $750 heating allowance – that’s if they can find a home to heat in the first place.
          Nope the outlook for the most vulnerable in our society remains equally bleak.
          Simply put Labour – don’t care.
          We knew that immediately when Jacinda threw Metiria under the bus.
          For Labour it’s all about bums on seats, and frankly I haven’t any more time for them.

          • WILD KATIPO 5.3.1.1.1
            25 August 2017 at 2:18 pm

            Here’s another thing, – Labour will need the Greens. And the Greens now have an unwritten mandate from many people to raise wages. Combine that with Labour, and there’s a strong chance that over a term we will see significant raising of wages to more realistic levels. Particularly in light of exorbitant rents/ homelessness.

            Unlike face value soothsaying and crystal ball gazing , – Im looking at this next govt holistically. And despite Metiria ‘ being thrown under the bus ‘ , the discussion is now out there.

            And Labour will be wanting to be seen as far away from National party negativity in that area as possible. There are no short fixes. Only the long game.

            We have had 3 decades of at sometimes , – incredibly viscous neo liberalism. Particularly during the 1980’s and 1990’s when the foundations and precedents we experience now were set.

            That neo lib framework is not going to be torn down overnight. You only have to see the pugilistic attitude of Seymour to feel the resistance building against what they perceive as deviating from their well feathered plans for elitism. I cite the incident of Seymour abusing a long time NZ First member when mention was made of re-nationalizing a former SOE. We can only expect more of that , – and far more subtle forms of that aggressive behavior if changes were to start happening.

            Have you ever watched wolves hunt ?

            If a moose stands its ground they move on and look for easier prey. If they get it running they know they will eventually succeed in exhausting their prey. And getting the herd running means they see the animals that are weak…

            Getting the conversation started and moving about poverty , homelessness, housing crisis , low wages , unrealistic rent levels is the very first part of getting the herd running.

            After that it is time to select a target and move in and exhaust it until victory is assured.

  6. patricia bremner 6
    25 August 2017 at 11:12 am

    Personally, it is great to be able to voice basic policy direction so clearly.

    Each of her placards has one. CLEAN RIVERS and so on.

    Most people apparently read the highlights, not the detail … human nature.

  7. Treetop 7
    25 August 2017 at 11:31 am

    Jacinda is the complete package, she will deliver and her government will care where National have failed.

    • alwyn 7.1
      25 August 2017 at 12:41 pm

      Is it true that Labour have dropped their objections to the 90 day trial law?
      There was mention of it in the DomPost this morning.
      Can anyone confirm that it will not be repealed if Labour, supported by NZF should become the Government.

      • Craig H 7.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 1:05 pm

        They will be reinstating the ability to challenge a dismissal by personal grievance within the 90 days, so I’d say that was effectively killing it.

        • alwyn 7.1.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 2:15 pm

          Is that what they are proposing?
          The story in Stuff made it seem as if they had dropped all opposition. Perhaps the commentator was being a bit hopeful.

          “In employment relations, Labour has now confirmed that it would not get rid of employment trial periods. The 90-day trial period has been a successful policy for both employers and employees, giving many people a better chance of gaining a job. Labour’s announcement that it would continue this policy if it becomes part of a Government is good news for both employers and employees.”

          From
          https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/96107500/kirk-hope-political-policies-that-help-business-boost-new-zealand-as-a-whole

          • Bill 7.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2017 at 2:24 pm

            There have always been trial periods. What National removed was the need to follow fair process for the first three months in the event a new employee wasn’t up to scratch.

  8. One Two 8
    25 August 2017 at 11:53 am

    Slogans, labels or a ‘breath of fresh air’..

    Will NOT deliver the change required

    It won’t even be the catalyst for the required change!

    Long past time to collectively ‘grow up’…

    • Wensleydale 8.1
      25 August 2017 at 12:04 pm

      Thanks for that, Negative Nancy. In other news, some of us are hoping for the best, not anticipating the worst. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate is the path to the National Party. Or something.

      • One Two 8.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 12:09 pm

        To repeat the message which you clearly missed…

        It’s long past time to collectively grow up!

        • Wensleydale 8.1.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 12:15 pm

          You know repeating yourself just makes you tedious, as opposed to more coherent, right?

      • marty mars 8.1.2
        25 August 2017 at 12:23 pm

        Yep good point Wd – we anticipate the best, hope for the best, plan for the best AND ensure we are okay if the best doesn’t happen.

    • Vaughn 8.2
      25 August 2017 at 1:03 pm

      One minus two: Is that you, Bill?

  9. Bill 9
    25 August 2017 at 12:10 pm

    Decidedly liberal publications celebrate the rise of a temporarily popular centrist. Is that any surprise? And more importantly, is it a sign of anything good?

    Maybe if you thought Trudeau and Macron and Owen Smith were the best things since sliced bread, then yes. Otherwise, no.

    • marty mars 9.1
      25 August 2017 at 12:22 pm

      lol – yeah it’s all a load of shit

      \sarc

      • Bill 9.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 12:32 pm

        What’s “a load of shit” marty?

        You don’t think swathes of the msm actively promote and/or report positively on centrist politicians? Can you point to any example from the recent past where they’ve actively promoted or reported positively on a politician of the left?

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 12:49 pm

          It’s a fairly glum outlook to suggest that unless we regard Trudeau etc as “the best thing since sliced bread”, any endorsement by the MSM of someone other than a rabid tory cannot be regarded as “anything good”.

          It might not be the second coming, but it’s not all shit.

          • Bill 9.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2017 at 1:49 pm

            Has Trudeau ended well? Is Macron panning out?

            My point is that msm will generally only endorse some political iteration of the status quo.

            In a fpp electoral system, that might excuse rushing to the banner of a Trudeau or a Macron or an Ardern. But we have mmp, so there’s no need to opt for the “lesser of two evils”

            But if you want a TPPA, then by all means throw a vote at NZ Labour. Or if you want a potential repeat of the foreshore and seabed debacle (water rights, where NZ Labour are completely out of step with other parties on ownership) then throw a vote at NZ Labour. Likewise if you favour no increase to the top tax rate, the removal of deliberations around a CGT from public scrutiny, a wholly inadequate response to housing (badly wrong emphasis that proposes building houses for sale over houses for rent at a ratio of 100:1), an ongoing rift between the supposedly deserving poor and the supposedly undeserving poor (no extension of wff to the unemployed or under-employed)…. You want to throw in compulsory work on minimum wage for the medium term unemployed? We can throw that in too.

            The centrists (Team Robertson) ran a successful coup and captured the moment into the bargain. And the bubble of hope and optimism they’ve generated will probably carry them through to quite high numbers on polling day. But then the bubble’s going to burst, or to change the metaphor, the wheels are going to come off.

            This next government will be a one term government and likely the last overtly liberal government that inflicts itself on NZ. (Or so I hope) So that’s a good thing if that hope’s realised.

            Regardless, I’m picking with a high degree of certainty, that Ardern will, should NZ Labour form the next government, become the most rapidly unpopular Prime Minister NZ has seen

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2017 at 2:14 pm

              Trudeau ran against Harper, didn’t he? And Macron against Le Pen?

              Not the best result, maybe, but but that measure “good”.

              Dunno about one-termitis, but I actually agree with you that politicians who rely too much on joyous hope can only disappoint – Obama, for example. Sanders would have, too.

              I’m not sure Ardern has quite that much cult of personality going, though. Pundits might call it mania, but it’s still only polls in the midthirties.

            • Pat 9.1.1.1.1.2
              25 August 2017 at 2:30 pm

              an observation….Jacinda Adern has been compared to John Key (a backhanded compliment know) so consider how Keys popularity fared with his supporters when he backtracked on certain promises, watered down down others and governed by the polls….his support base (and an annoying high percentage of swing voters) a) understood and b) recognised they preferred that to the alternative.

              I don’t join you in your high degree of certainty

            • patricia bremner 9.1.1.1.1.3
              25 August 2017 at 10:41 pm

              Bill, of course you think this, your comments are leaden with doom.

              You think anyone being hopeful is a fool.

              Your gloomy predictions remind me of Eeyore playing Poo Sticks.

              But then I’m a cockeyed optimist, because hoping is better!!!

              • Bill …
                25 August 2017 at 11:08 pm

                The expected end of liberalism isn’t doom. I’ve nothing against hopefulness. In fact I embrace it. But there’s stupid hope and realistic hope. The former is something I’ve no fucking time for whatsoever.

            • patricia bremner 9.1.1.1.1.4
              26 August 2017 at 12:21 am

              Macro, Bill … in an interview Jacinda said there were policy announcements still to come in the coming days and weeks.

              No, there has been nothing on the poor except child policy and the winter payments, but many of the policies appear to be complimentary, so I’m awaiting developments … so to speak.

              As for Jacinda becoming one of the most unpopular PMs , this appears to me to have little basis in fact. If she has to do unpopular things, she will engage and explain, that is her style. She will be unpopular with some because she is a clever woman.

              An important message was sent to Grant Robertson, when Jacinda had Andrew put at 3, one place ahead of Grant. It was, that she valued Andrew’s ethics work and help. imo. She did not contrive a take-over … Andrew admitted it might be needed to save the party.

              As to the water issue. Labour and Maori agree it is a Kaitiakitanga /guardianship issue, not ownership. Jacinda is of a modern generation who grasps these concepts.

              The tax issue came after the prefu. They have announced an increase in funding and staff to deal with white collar and multi-national avoidance earlier, and no change to the top tax rate after the prefu.

              She moved swiftly to cut off an attack line about tax. That doesn’t mean it won’t come up in the future if more income is needed.

              To hold and guard for future generations the best of New Zealand by making climate change a basic policy guide is huge.

              So I am quite certain what we are getting is going to be transformational.

            • Treetop 9.1.1.1.1.5
              26 August 2017 at 1:01 pm

              Thanks for answering 7.

              Macron has gone from 57% – 37%.

              The way I see leadership is, what gets done when elected and not what gets talked about never being done.

              Destroying Housing on all levels will be a legacy of the National government.

        • marty mars 9.1.1.2
          25 August 2017 at 1:01 pm

          I took – your perception that liberal publications promoting temporarily popular centrists is a load of shit iyo – from your comment – sorry if I have that wrong – do I?

          • Bill 9.1.1.2.1
            25 August 2017 at 1:53 pm

            All I’m saying is that’s it’s wholly predictable, and from my political perspective, nothing at all to celebrate.

            • marty mars 9.1.1.2.1.1
              25 August 2017 at 2:00 pm

              I know – that’s why I used the sarc tag – not like last time when you just smartarsedblasted my genuine enquiry.

              • Bill …
                25 August 2017 at 2:07 pm

                Your comments are coming across a bit opaque.

                I took your original comment to be sarcasm aimed at any opinion that might suggest Jacindamania was anything less than wholesome and wonderful.

                My bad…I think.

                • marty mars …
                  25 August 2017 at 2:10 pm

                  No you were correct – probably my way of putting it – sorry. I took your moan and made a comment “…load of shit” as if agreeing with you and then put /sarc to show that I didn’t agree.

        • Macro 9.1.1.3
          25 August 2017 at 1:25 pm

          Tend to agree with you there Bill – there will be no great leap to the left after 23 Sep even if a Labour led Govt.
          Labour’s policies are far from earth shattering, and in general watered down Green Policy, and nothing on ending poverty in this country, or any help for the most vulnerable.
          We are getting John Key, again but in a different form.

          • McFlock 9.1.1.3.1
            25 August 2017 at 1:36 pm

            Nothing on ending poverty, except actually measuring it and putting it alongside the budget and fiscal updates as a measure of government policy.

            So, actually something, then.

            • Macro 9.1.1.3.1.1
              25 August 2017 at 1:39 pm

              McFlock you and I know – there is only one way to end poverty – and that is to throw some money at it.

              • McFlock …
                25 August 2017 at 1:43 pm

                Indeed.
                but to solve a problem one must first know its extent.

                Expansion to state housing, winter energy supplements for benefits, and so on, are throwing money at the problem. But the reason the tories have gotten away with it for so long is because poverty wasn’t measured in the first place.

                • Macro …
                  25 August 2017 at 1:54 pm

                  There are many internationally recognised measures of poverty available and people in NZ have these numbers already, We know the numbers are around 300,000 and rising we don’t need further assessments – we need action.

                  • Bill …
                    25 August 2017 at 2:01 pm

                    Something like a 20% increase to core benefits, a hefty bump to the minimum wage, expanding the eligibility of wff to include the under-employed and the unemployed, a new top tax rate to help fund stuff and a complete rewrite of the Employment Relations Act so that NZ employment law aligns with best international standards.

                    That would be a start. And that wouldn’t be anything that NZ Labour is proposing. The Green Party is though….

                    • McFlock …
                      25 August 2017 at 2:08 pm

                      So vote green.

                      Of course, the only way they’ll be in the 2018 government is with Labour.

                    • Bill …
                      25 August 2017 at 2:12 pm

                      And equally “of course”, the only way NZ Labour’s penchant for liberal policy prescriptions will be moderated is by us inserting a strong Green counter balance to government.

                    • marty mars …
                      25 August 2017 at 2:12 pm

                      they can’t vote Green if the Greens are likely to work with Labour though can they because that would be pretty much the same as voting Labour and they are the same as the gnats.

                  • McFlock …
                    25 August 2017 at 2:07 pm

                    lol

                    You should tell that to Paula Bennett.

                    Having an official government measure linked directly to our so-called economic performance is a significant change in the way government does, and is seen to do, business.

          • marty mars 9.1.1.3.2
            25 August 2017 at 1:41 pm

            nah Macro I think you are wrong

            there is no such thing as perfect

            this labour is better than the gnats and that actually translates to better outcomes on the ground for people who are suffering – it doesn’t mean than no one will suffer again but that suffering is alleviated for some whereas with the gnats that suffering would still be there.

            sure we can wait for the second coming and wring our hands together for all the people really hurting while we wait – or we can accept the imperfect nature of reality and work with what we have.That is the way to go – any other way is just pretend caring imo.

            • Macro 9.1.1.3.2.1
              25 August 2017 at 1:47 pm

              it doesn’t mean than no one will suffer again but that suffering is alleviated for some whereas with the gnats that suffering would still be there. I would believe you marty if you could point to onepolicy statement where Labour actually commits to improving to lot of beneficiaries apart from their magnanimous $750 per year heating allowance (if they can afford a home to heat in the first place).

              • McFlock …
                25 August 2017 at 1:56 pm

                State housing expansion
                Genuinely free schooling

                And that’s if you restrict “poverty” to “beneficiaries”, which is incorrect almost half the time. The working poor will get better conditions, end to fire at will, better pay, and elimination of secondary tax (which is a real killer if you’re on 4 different jobe descriptions like I was at one stage).

                Someone recently did a post that consisted of a link to Labour’s policy page, so you wouldn’t have to have it served up on a plate like this.

              • marty mars …
                25 August 2017 at 2:06 pm

                are you sure just ONE will do? it might not be the right one, or not enough of the right one, or my perception of its oneness may be different to yours.

                it is all perception – the policy is being graded and sieved by YOUR perception – change your perception and the policies change – bit like changing the leader and for those who may say – cosmetic, rubbish – when the gnats get kicked out in September that will be a concrete result and I will be happy and then the next day I will be supporting changes to make life better for people and I will be holding to account Labour and the Greens for the delivery of their promises and their promise and because I believe I will be delivered unto.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  25 August 2017 at 4:11 pm

                  Excellent.

                  … ” when the gnats get kicked out in September that will be a concrete result and I will be happy and then the next day I will be supporting changes to make life better for people and I will be holding to account Labour and the Greens for the delivery of their promises and their promise and because I believe I will be delivered unto ” …

                  This where we are. And we have to work within those parameters. Personally I would far rather have Labour than National . Any-day.

                  And for Macro , … I would say the Greens will be part of that govt. We need them both to keep each other in check . And if they foul up , it is the public’s right to let them know it in no uncertain terms, – just like we would if it were National. After all , this is our country and our govt and we pay their salary’s. We have every right to have a say.

          • patricia bremner 9.1.1.3.3
            26 August 2017 at 12:20 am

            Macro, Bill … in an interview Jacinda said there were policy announcements still to come in the coming days and weeks.

            No, there has been nothing on the poor except child policy and the winter payments, but many of the policies appear to be complimentary, so I’m awaiting developments … so to speak.

            As for Jacinda becoming one of the most unpopular PMs , this appears to me to have little basis in fact. If she has to do unpopular things, she will engage and explain, that is her style. She will be unpopular with some because she is a clever woman.

            An important message was sent to Grant Robertson, when Jacinda had Andrew put at 3, one place ahead of Grant. It was, that she valued Andrew’s ethics work and help. imo. She did not contrive a take-over … Andrew admitted it might be needed to save the party.

            As to the water issue. Labour and Maori agree it is a Kaitiakitanga /guardianship issue, not ownership. Jacinda is of a modern generation who grasps these concepts.

            The tax issue came after the prefu. They have announced an increase in funding and staff to deal with white collar and multi-national avoidance earlier, and no change to the top tax rate after the prefu.

            She moved swiftly to cut off an attack line about tax. That doesn’t mean it won’t come up in the future if more income is needed.

            To hold and guard for future generations the best of New Zealand by making climate change a basic policy guide is huge.

            So I am quite certain what we are getting is going to be transformational.

            • Macro 9.1.1.3.3.1
              26 August 2017 at 8:21 am

              Patricia – I’m basing my analysis on what Labour has done in the past for the most vulnerable in our society – I’m not talking about the huge strides made by Mickey Savage in the 1930’s I’m talking about the 1980’s – the present.
              Building more social housing will have no discernable effect if rents are not capped at a sustainable level for beneficiaries. This was first removed by National in the 90’s and when given the mandate to amend that Labour didn’t. Paying increasing housing supplements just exacerbates the problem and rewards private landlords.
              The main problem with both National and Labour is that they are still wedded to an economic model that sees the environment as a subset of the economy and not the other way round. They both are of the belief that growing the economic pie will lift all the boats – to mix metaphores. The problem with that “theory” (which I have to concede is the conventional one held by the majority, and in particular the commentariat) is that it is seriously flawed, in that ignores the simple fact that our world is finite.
              The fact that we live in a finite world is one of the fundamental reasons why The Greens stress the need for social justice, because if you cannot have continued growth, then you must ensure that resources are shared equally and according to need.
              It is possible to have prosperity without growth, it just requires a commitment to working towards a more equitable society.

    • Adrian Thornton 9.2
      25 August 2017 at 2:29 pm

      @Bill, in answer to your original comment.
      An important and obvious point there Bill, an observation that you would assume any critical thinking citizen would instinctively understand…although unfortunately reading through the comments, it seems not.

      • marty mars 9.2.1
        25 August 2017 at 2:41 pm

        “that you would assume any critical thinking citizen would instinctively understand”

        nice. not. sad.

        edit – delete – I can’t remember and are less interested so I’ve deleted it all mostly.

  10. ianmac 10
    25 August 2017 at 12:35 pm

    English and Joyce say repeatedly that there is more to the election than the fancy appearances of smiling Jacinda but it is really about policies you know.
    Irony!
    But weren’t the last 9 years clearly about the fancy appearances of smiling John Key?

  11. Ffloyd 11
    25 August 2017 at 1:44 pm

    Guyon and Susie on NZR this morning sounding very peeved at the rampant VERY negative fedback they are getting from listeners. Guyon in particular very snippy. Must join the Morning chorus. They are certainly spending time and energy over the last few mornings to do as much damage as possible to Jacinda in particular. Commenters on this morning were very derogatory about Jacinda/Labour etc about their supposed lack of information/transperency regarding their tax policies. This is very funny given the last 9 years from National of outright lying, obfuscation, twisted facts and figures retrieved on the fly from the little balloons hovering over their heads, incomprehensible rhetoric and anything else the dullards could cobble together and get away with. But. You know. Strong, stable govt, strong economy , strong support from compliant media and last years Nats were apparently the best govt ever that NZ has ever been had by.
    And now we have Beige Bill with the biggest lie of all. “No, Im not boring”???!!!! Really?
    I think you’re bloody boring Bill. And where have they hidden their secret weapon Paula Bennett. Did I see her in a skit bit on Ben and Jono last night? “Come to Mama” Was that her? Or was I having a bit of a dream while napping on the couch. Whatever, it was scary. We are definitely ready to have some ADULTS running our beautiful country.

    • alwyn 11.1
      25 August 2017 at 2:08 pm

      “ready to have some ADULTS running our beautiful country”.
      That is certainly a nice thought but the people controlling the Labour leader seem to be very determined to prevent her meeting any adults.

      How many of her meetings have been with school children? Why isn’t she talking to the “ADULTS” you talk about? Are the puppet masters behind Jacinda trying to prevent the public from seeing how shallow is her knowledge of the important topics in New Zealand?

      Is she really just a front for Grant Robertson? Actually, in a way I hope so. If Labour do get to lead a Government it would be quite likely that we could have an effective Government being run by Grant and Winston,

      That was the way the 1980s Labour Government was. With Douglas, Prebble Bassett et al running things New Zealand changed for the better at a very rapid rate. It was only when Lange came out of his slumber for his “cup of tea” that the Labour Government fell apart. He should have followed your example and stayed “having a bit of a dream while napping on the couch”.

      • WILD KATIPO 11.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 4:21 pm

        …” That was the way the 1980s Labour Government was. With Douglas, Prebble Bassett et al running things New Zealand changed for the better at a very rapid rate ” …

        L0L0L0L0L0L0L0L !

        What ?, … the treasonous wreckers along with the later National party Bolger and Richardson et al ?!!?…

        Are you a complete fool? … or do you not understand history? ,… or are you just some sort of American neo con import paid to troll online ?!!?

        That sort of stupidity needs to be checked right now.

        Read this , – then afterwards spare us any more of your right wing Thule society neo Nazi bullshit. Please !

        New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
        http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

        Seriously , I get sick of having to rub you right wingers noses in this shit, … and even more sick of you trying to pretend it doesn’t exist.

        Get honest.

      • Ffloyd 11.1.2
        25 August 2017 at 6:31 pm

        Nothing wrong with going Bach for further education.

      • Ffloyd 11.1.3
        25 August 2017 at 6:34 pm

        Just watching Beige Bill on news stalking little toddlers for selfies.

    • Ad 11.2
      25 August 2017 at 2:41 pm

      If Labour haven’t figured out that they are weak on tax by now, they are in for a real treat when English continues to show Ardern up on economic management credentials.

      There is still only a chance that there will be a change of government.

      We are going into under 5% in unemployment (albeit underemployed still high), the economy is only cooling slowly, and the state is continuing to do all it can absorbing labour by pump-priming the construction industries. They have just announced a massive budget surplus and are throwing effective bribes at the regions.

      Ardern will I am sure have learned that she can’t simply combat the economic data with smiles and schoolchildren.

      The test of the above is in the tv debates.

      Four weeks to go and we can start gearing up for the next one.

  12. Ad 12
    25 August 2017 at 2:35 pm

    If Ardern was Prime Minister in 2017 – that’s a massive and risky IF – we should expect some things to change for the better, and others to stay roughly where they are. That’s about what the country can cope with.

    They are going big on housing and transport and water and health and labour regulation and NZSuper and climate change trading. That is what we should expect.

    They will probably do those things well.

    But it’s not useful to expect much more. Not in one term.

    They will probably make a mess of income and capital gains taxes.
    They will probably not do too well tilting economic productivity.
    They will probably shag about with welfare for a while.
    They will probably do something symbolic and meaningless on immigration.
    They have little capacity on international affairs.
    They will make massive enemies in farming and struggle with that, just like last time.

    I am fully inhaled on ArdernHelium, but we need to be cold and clear about what we are likely to get and what we are not.

    • Anne 12.1
      25 August 2017 at 3:23 pm

      They have little capacity on international affairs.

      Jesus Ad, are you deliberately trying to bait those on the Left? Labour’s Foreign Affairs track record in government has been way ahead of National. Setting aside the sheep deal scandal, Murray MCCully didn’t do too badly, nor did Winston Peters although the latter was during the Clark regime so that isn’t surprising.

      All National has ever done is meekly play “follow the leader” [the USA]. It has been successive Labour governments who are responsible for the high level of respect – and indeed admiration – NZ still enjoys at an international level. Under Labour we have stood up for what we believe in and done so by way of action as well as words. And it looks like we might be going to do it again over Climate Change if Jacinda wins the top job.

      I can hardly wait to see it happen.

      • Ad 12.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 3:37 pm

        The Labour track record is great.

        But that’s not “”capacity”. As you well know.
        The current lot of candidates don’t have much chop or ambition in that field.

        • Anne 12.1.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 4:49 pm

          The current lot of candidates don’t have much chop or ambition in that field.

          You might be right there. I was expecting David Shearer to take over as F.A. minister in the next Lab. Govt. I think he would have been a highly successful given his impressive track record.

          • Ad 12.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2017 at 4:54 pm

            Should Labour get in, I think they will be an outstanding government.

            And as I noted to some tryhard nitwit ultraleft melancholic yesterday, I will be campaigning to achieve precisely a Labour led government until the very last moment.

    • marty mars 12.2
      25 August 2017 at 3:42 pm

      so ad your crystal ball is telling you stuff and your years and years of experience are adding to these premonitions – well done you. For me I’m going to wait for the result and then see what happens with an eye to how they are going compared to promises. I’m not going to try and be a futurist.

      I’m so amazed that so many so called lefties are writing this new incoming government off before they have won or even done anything. There is NO justification for that except for fear and fear mongering and the only reason to do that imo is to stop the change of government. You know what? get out of the way – all the gray hairs (metaphorically) can just sit down and have a wee break – the next generation is coming through and they don’t really like the way the place has been left.

      • Ad 12.2.1
        25 August 2017 at 3:46 pm

        Oh agree with all of that.

        Just want to encourage the hard left to temper their aspirations, should an alternative government form.

        • marty mars 12.2.1.1
          25 August 2017 at 3:48 pm

          Cool, I agree with that ambition – managing expectations is by far the hardest row to hoe.

        • McFlock 12.2.1.2
          25 August 2017 at 3:51 pm

          The hard left? Not sure they have any positive expectations for Labour.

          Midleft maybe. But then they’ve dealt with keymania for 9 years so are probably used to media hype.

          • Ad 12.2.1.2.1
            25 August 2017 at 4:16 pm

            Social Democrats maybe. Centre Left? Centrists!
            Love ’em all.

            • McFlock 12.2.1.2.1.1
              25 August 2017 at 4:25 pm

              it seems to me these days that everyone sees themselves as a little bit left or right of centre, no matter how extreme their views might be lol

              • Anne …
                25 August 2017 at 8:23 pm

                I did the Compass thing the other day and discovered I was apparently further to the Left of the Greens. It gave me such a shock I plan to do it again and accordingly temper my views. 😯

                I blame The Standard!

      • The Chairman 12.2.2
        26 August 2017 at 10:10 am

        The “justification” for that, Marty, can be found in their policies.

        And it’s not to fear monger, it’s done (speaking personally) in the hope they will lift their game.

        If a good number signal to Labour their policies fall short, there’s more chance of Labour upping their game. Whereas, if we accept their shortfalls now, we’re signaling we’re alright with them, hence there is far less chance of them improving them going forward.

        • marty mars 12.2.2.1
          26 August 2017 at 10:24 am

          Would you recommend a parent constantly nit pick and criticise their child to try and get them to do better based on the parents view? Do you think that would work? Unending criticisms are corrosive and don’t help ANYONE.

          I think your strategy is flawed but good on you if you’ve decided on what and how you interact with labour and their policies.

          • The Chairman 12.2.2.1.1
            26 August 2017 at 11:11 am

            A political party is not a child, Marty. Although, many within may act like them at times.

            We encourage children to do the right thing and help guide them in that direction. If they mess up or fall short, we point it out to them and help show them a better way. Merely accepting their shortfalls won’t encourage them to do better. Which, from what I can gather, seems to be your strategy.

            Some of the policies Labour have put out should have caused outrage within the left.

            For example, despite Labour banging on about poverty and inequality, there is no increase in core benefit rates, no income tax increases on the rich, no commitment for keeping super at 65, a flat regional fuel tax hitting lower income households the hardest (akin to GST) and they’re proposing to build an insufficient number of state houses. Yet, Labour have gained (largely from the left) support in the polls. Signaling we’re alright with it all.

            Unfortunately, making excuses and generally accepting a lowering of the bar isn’t going to drive them to lift their game.

            • marty mars 12.2.2.1.1.1
              26 August 2017 at 11:30 am

              The difference between us is I want the gnats out and the best left in. And I’m not prepared to dribble on about all of the many faults of this and that around labour or the left . Your smack offerings of a better way to do it seem slightly spiteful to me. But whatever I am not spending all day talking with naysayers.

              • The Chairman …
                26 August 2017 at 11:59 am

                I want National out too.

                The difference, Marty, is I don’t want them replaced with National lite. Hence, would much rather see the Greens, Democrats (http://www.democrats.org.nz/) and Mana having the larger majority. But it is those such as yourself (that accept this lowering of the bar and support Labour regardless) that are largely preventing the change we badly require.

                “Your smack offerings of a better way to do it seem slightly spiteful to me”

                I’m far from the only one pointing out their shortfalls, Marty. Do you think the Salvation Army was being spiteful pointing out the massive shortfall in the number of state homes? Or is it just me you’re directing your venom at?

                Disappointed? Yes. But spiteful? Hell no.

                • marty mars …
                  26 August 2017 at 12:07 pm

                  I’m sorry if it felt like venom.

                  At the moment you have, based on your idea, gnat or gnat lite – what’s your choice? Greens? Sure vote for them, me too but why shit on labour – it is illogical and bullshit imo. Vote green promote green and let labour and JA get the treasury benches. That attacking labour and JA is where the spite is – there is no good reason to do it if you’re voting for a different party imo.

                  • The Chairman …
                    26 August 2017 at 12:39 pm

                    The reason I’m coming down on Labour (and those that support them regardless) was clearly explained to you, Marty.

                    But I’ll try again. As they are clearly the lead opposition party (on current polling) they will largely be calling the shots if they or a left block win. Hence, we require them to up their game for the change we want (and badly require) to eventuate.

                    Is that not a good enough reason for you, Marty? Are you against significant change for the better? Are you happy to prolong the suffering many are going through? Something you clearly need to give more thought too.

                    Moreover, I have not attacked Labour or Jacinda, I’ve pointed out their policy shortfalls and why we require them to improve upon them. So get off your high horse.

                  • The Chairman …
                    26 August 2017 at 2:40 pm

                    Really, Marty? Is taking swipes at me all you’ve got? Though, I can imagine it must be difficult to defend your acceptance of a lowering of the bar.

    • Reality 12.3
      25 August 2017 at 3:59 pm

      Ad, all governments are “new” at the start of their term, whether it be Key’s or hopefully Ardern’s and take a while to settle in. The majority of Key’s ministers were newcomers, so as I see it Labour will be no different. Each Minister has several advisers and DPMC has a whole 8th floor of them.

      • Ad 12.3.1
        25 August 2017 at 5:49 pm

        Even the best at DPMC need actual Ministerial leadership. I hope for the best but keep hope in check.

    • Pat 12.4
      25 August 2017 at 8:30 pm

      ‘They will make massive enemies in farming and struggle with that, just like last time.”

      yes am inclined to agree, and given its a major source of export receipts its problematic but not in the political sense as farmers have a genetic level block to anything associated with the Labour party…c’est la vie.

      • patricia bremner 12.4.1
        26 August 2017 at 10:39 am

        Not all farmers are factory farmers, as many have opted for once daily milking and husbanding resources. Those farmers agree.

    • Robert Guyton 12.5
      25 August 2017 at 8:32 pm

      ” Ardern Helium” doesn’t change your thinking, only your voice. Maybe you meant “ArderNOS”?

  13. Mrs Brillo 13
    25 August 2017 at 4:03 pm

    Ad, you overlook that any incoming Labour government is likely to have tax expert Deborah Russell aboard. She and Grant R will be a formidable team. I’m looking (hopefully) forward to it.

    • Ad 13.1
      25 August 2017 at 4:15 pm

      Russell I am sure will be part of the “working group”.

      But she is a political newbie , brittle in character, untested in the fray, and has been a very long time out of any accounting practise. Good to have academics, but real tax level alteration is going to need massive political courage.

      Labour have very, very little Ministerial experience left. They will stuff up some things as they go. So it’s better to put your hopes on the policy areas they have done a lot of thinking and preparation on already.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 13.1.1
        25 August 2017 at 5:20 pm

        Quite frankly, I have been sorely “tried and tested” over the last 9 years and am looking forward to some greenness, enthusiasm and ability to listen in a new government. National have ignored evidence based advice and seem to be stuck in the last century, particularly over climate change. NZ cannot afford the “exploit, mine, pillage” National Party either for the sake of the environment or the people with the punitive approach to welfare, the running down of public services to achieve a “surplus”, the wasteful use of private contractors. Pompous Ministers with huge egos and appalling lack of rational thinking need to go. Take Todd McLay and his stupidity in pushing the TPPA11, giving USA all the benefits of the agreement without any concessions for N;, Murray McCully and his Saudi Sheep shambles; the non-viable RONS…..

    • Anne 13.2
      25 August 2017 at 8:29 pm

      Yes, and we have one of NZ’s top tax experts on our Lab. Electorate Committee and I expect he will be used by Deborah and Grant if they get the chance to set up their review of the taxation system. What’s more he has been working at the shop level (so to speak) for many years so will be able to guide them in their deliberations.

  14. patricia bremner 14
    26 August 2017 at 10:57 am

    We all care greatly about the outcome of this election, and the aftermath.

    If we want more meaningful policy, we need to sell our ideas to our local representative, email in, send postcards …… keep trying to help those whose energy levels are low.

    Kay, are you out there? I wrote asking questions and was pleased to see Jacinda reply to a question on her Facebook half hour, about the inadequate payments and need for constant proof of need facing people with disabilities.

    The response was, “Yes she had a great deal of feedback on that topic, and it was an area that needed to be considered.”

    Not what we would hope for, but it is on the list.

    Trouble is the list is a moving growing social disaster getting longer each day.

    Keep well, I’ll keep badgering.

    • The Chairman 14.1
      27 August 2017 at 11:09 am

      “Yes she had a great deal of feedback on that topic, and it was an area that needed to be considered.”

      Did you reply and ask if she is considering it (seeing as she stated it needs considering)?

      And if not, when she plans on considering it?

      Moreover, when can we expect an outcome?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2
      27 August 2017 at 11:18 am

      Says it all really: the response is to listen to “feedback” and the “area” hasn’t even been considered yet.

      Weren’t the last thirty-three years of feedback enough or something?

    • marty mars 14.3
      27 August 2017 at 11:31 am

      Be good to ask her to sort out poverty, war and climate change too ta. Can she provide the steps she is taking and when she is doing this. Plus my 9.5 year old son wants a copy of her plan too. And quickly, did I mention I need this yesterday.

      • marty mars 14.3.1
        27 August 2017 at 12:13 pm

        Jjust to clarify – i thought your questions to be extremely valid patricia and I hope the answers and action are taken by labour – my comment was really related to the chairdims one – sorry Patricia I should have put the comment as a reply to them not you.

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