Open mike 01/04/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 1st, 2023 - 181 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

181 comments on “Open mike 01/04/2023 ”

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  1. Blade 1
    1 April 2023 at 8:41 am

    Winston is on the election warpath. He's going to deal with errant Maori and eliminate all forms of wokery from government. But, I've always found amongst the bluster and bs that is Winston, there's usually a gem of a policy to be found. This time around it's his suggestion to make it a criminal offence to obstruct or assault emergency first responders. Winston probably got that idea from a similar British law that's recently been updated allowing up to two years jail for offenders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/sep/15/maximum-jail-term-attacking-emergency-workers-doubled

    In my experience offenders in NZ fall mainly into two groups: snotty nose middleclass white kids who have never been told 'no,' or feral gang bangers who threaten emergency workers with assault or death if they don't fix their bro on the spot.

    The police response in those incidents has always bemused me. Police don't generally arrest offenders on the spot, but try moving them on multiple times.

    A good law if implemented by any political party.

  2. Hunter Thompson II 2
    1 April 2023 at 9:10 am

    A major tidal energy project is up and running in the Orkneys: see https://orbitalmarine.com/o2/
    It is a floating turbine system that seems innovative. Its rotors can provide power no matter which way the tide is running.

    Shouldn't we be doing the same thing in NZ? There must be a likely site in Cook Strait where there are strong currents.

    Coupled with Wellington's wind farms, it could mean a huge reduction in reliance on fossil fuels.

  3. Shanreagh 3
    1 April 2023 at 9:13 am

    I am wondering if The Standard should have a blanket ban on the word Terf.

    Quite apart from it being derisory and anti women it does not describe the role or point of view of women who have concerns.

    Terf is a trans generated word of distain, disgust etc at women. It does not describe our views merely their reaction to our views.

    It is not required in the discussions we have on TS.

    There is an alternative to describe us and that is GCF

    Sometimes when we are quoting the quote may include 'Terf 'we could put the word (sic) in brackets after, so '…..terf(sic).

    sic

    used in brackets after a copied or quoted word that appears odd or erroneous to show that the word is quoted exactly as it stands in the original…..

    https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

    PS I am aware that some GCF have tried to reclaim this word as a way of being sarcastic about the 'cause'

    • Visubversa 3.1
      1 April 2023 at 9:38 am

      Thank you. I call it out wherever I see it. And you are right, there are groups that use it -often disguised, to indicate that this is a group for women, not for sex mimics. I belong to a crafting group that uses the initials – which was set up when obvious autogynephiliac men invaded a couple of knitting and crochet groups demanding that we "validate" their "femaleness" and their various self modeled constructions.

      • Anker 3.1.1
        1 April 2023 at 10:14 am

        I really don't believe in banning words. If people want to call me a terf, that is up to. them. It usually alerts to the fact that they have no good arguements re gender ideology and is part of a playbook of no debate and smearing. But I appreciate your point Shanreigh.

        I commented on Mickey Savages post "debating with Nazis" that I was reading an interesting book called Bad Arguements (its a compilation of 100 arguements writtern by various phiolosphy academics). One was about when people bring Hitler and Nazis into a debate. Those who bring up Nazis in an arguement are seen as conceding defeat of the arguement. I tend to regard Terf the same way. Although I do like the commenter who suggested Terf be changed to Perf (Penis exclusionary radical feminist)

        • Molly 3.1.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 10:28 am

          I agree.

          A replacement word will soon be found to dehumanise the "other", so let it continue. The accusations also lose their potency, when universally applied.

        • Visubversa 3.1.1.2
          1 April 2023 at 12:40 pm

          I prefer PERL – penis exclusionary radical lesbian. Happy to put my hand up for either of those.

        • weka 3.1.1.3
          1 April 2023 at 12:43 pm

          perf is too close to perv.

    • AB 3.2
      1 April 2023 at 10:00 am

      People who believe in polite and productive discussion tend to avoid inflammatory words or words that deliberately misrepresent the position of others. I do not call people "Nazis", I try to avoid "fascist", though I might use "proto-fascist" to suggest a tendency. I do not call people "TERFs" and I do not refer to transwomen as "he", though I might if the trans identity was clearly an intentional ruse.

      However, none of this is the point. I don't imagine for a minute that my personal beliefs are grounds for policing the English lexicon.

      Polonius: What do you read my lord?

      Hamlet: Words, words, words…

    • Shanreagh 3.3
      1 April 2023 at 10:37 am

      There have been some excellent responses so far all of which I agree with.

      The best argument is that allowing the word does let us easily identify the bad faith commentators as most good faith commentators would use (sic) or other words to distance themselves from the slur.

      Faith restored!

    • weka 3.4
      1 April 2023 at 12:28 pm

      it doesn't get used that often on TS as a slur. Where people use it as a descriptor I point out the problems and link to terfisaslur. I have also moderated on its use and will continue to do so. If you see someone using it, you can reply to any comment of mine with a link and I will take a look.

    • gsays 3.5
      1 April 2023 at 12:39 pm

      It's a common tactic, using words that aren't 100 % accurate but are about the vibe.

      For example using anti-vaxxer to describe attendees of the Parliament Grounds protest, regardless of how often it was pointed out how inaccurate it was.

      • Shanreagh 3.5.1
        1 April 2023 at 11:16 pm

        I use/d anti vax/anti vaxxer as a shorthand to describe people who were not getting the vaccination, ie for non medical reasons, did not want others to and thought that by offering vaccinations that Govt was over reaching in some way. Not to mention the people who had been deluded by various people saying the vaccines had nanobots, magnets, trackers etc. I also could not see why being anti vaccination also often meant being anti wearing a mask

        To me the protection of sick people in hospital, older people in rest homes, children was more important to the country as a whole during the time of the emergency powers used in the pandemic. These were more important than to cater for people who did not believe the science.

        I think in less fraught times we are more accepting of those with this type of view.

        The parliamentary protest was a gathering of all sorts of people who felt they had a grievance. Not just those concerned about Covid.

        Hence my dad's advice to me when he knew he could not stop me marching. protesting

        'Have a look to the left of you , have a look to the right of you

        If you don't like what you see, leave'

        People coat tail onto to causes.

        Using words like T**f, a word used by the transgender community (around 3% perhaps) of the population) to describe 51% of the population seems a little different to me.

    • bwaghorn 3.6
      1 April 2023 at 5:43 pm

      Turf the terf

    • Incognito 3.7
      1 April 2023 at 8:42 pm

      As weka explained in another thread, banning is mostly for behaviour (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943140). I think we can tolerate offensive words in robust debate, even when they’re not (at all) necessary and/or can be avoided. The seriousness of being offensive depends on context, intent, and perception. That said, in rare occasions we temporarily put words or word combinations in the Auto-Moderation list (filter) to pre-emptively capture comments from problematic comments who show recidivist behaviour (i.e. they won’t listen or are slow-learners). (NB sometimes, the word itself is not offensive but highly idiosyncratic of the offending commenter). If it is serious enough, we leave a Mod note in the comment when we release it from the Auto-Mod queue. When things settle down again, we remove the word, also because it creates extra work for the Mods. NB most bans are preceded by at least one warning because we encourage positive behaviour and prefer not to ban. You may also have noticed that occasionally we delete serious insults in comments and mark this by [deleted]. This can be for various reasons too, but generally it is to avoid the start of flame wars, without actually changing the content of the comment. I think we have it about right on this site angel

      • Shanreagh 3.7.1
        1 April 2023 at 10:53 pm

        I agree TS has it about right. I was sick & tired of reading that word repeated ad nauseam by people who really should know better if they were aware of the issues (not on TS so much but other places)

        I am now accepting that to leave it & mark it say is better to identify the bad from the good.

  4. Shanreagh 4
    1 April 2023 at 9:56 am

    A woman, Katrina Biggs, with 'But the Emperor has no clothes' look at the violence against women, women's issues and how this has culminated in the award of Young NZer of the Year to an anti women, anti women's rights, anti freech speech advocate

    She concludes:

    It seems that being an arsehole is still no barrier to getting a prestigious award, but being a woman who doesn’t want men in her or her daughters’ spaces gets your life put in danger. Good to know that the world hasn’t tilted on its’ axis too much.

    https://aboldwoman.substack.com/p/young-new-zealander-of-the-year-award?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

    • Molly 4.1
      1 April 2023 at 10:08 am

      Helen Joyce also has a good piece up:

      https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-42/

      The people primarily to blame are, obviously, those making threats and committing violence. But they are enabled by all those who praise the violence, or who say that although they don’t condone it, they understand why the people these women are trying to exclude (aka men) might want to lash out.

      It’s really dangerous, and for the first time since stumbling on the nonsense of trans ideology five years ago, I’m seriously worried. It’s not just the glorification of violence against women in trans-rights forums—the posing with guns and t-shirts reading “TERFs get the wall”. It’s the intimidation recast as social justice (Pink News literally described those threatening agitators outside the Lesbian Project, led by an attempted* murderer, as a “joyful pro-trans protest”). And presiding over it all are the idiot politicians, academics and journalists who smear people like Posie, Kathleen and Julie by calling them “anti-trans” rather than pro-women—and then quickly link them to every sort of bigotry, up to Naziism.

    • Anker 4.2
      1 April 2023 at 10:21 am

      Yes a lot of peope on TS don't read the Daily Blog, but Martyn wrote a column on this and the comments were full of people saying they will withdraw their accounts from Kiwibank.

      As a KB customer, I hope Grant Robertson will bail the bank out if it fails due to a rush on money..

      It is truly disgusted that Lal was awarded young NZ of the year. He never condemned the violence, does anyone know if he was more actively involved in it?

      Of what Lal et al don't realize is that this is that this provides another wake up call for all those members of the genneral public who haven't quite realized how anti women trans rights activists are.

  5. Anker 5
    1 April 2023 at 10:17 am

    Chole Swarbrick defended the protesters (and failed to condemn the violence) saying it was a joyous celebrations of trans (or words to that effect)

    • Francesca 5.1
      1 April 2023 at 10:28 am

      Such a disappointment seeing Chloe use all the meaningless cliches

      Trans Joy eh?

      Oh the Rapture!

    • psych nurse 5.2
      1 April 2023 at 11:51 am

      Its not the trans protesters that I find objectionable, its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. Surely the antithesis of feminism.

      • Molly 5.2.1
        1 April 2023 at 12:02 pm

        "its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. "

        What valid message? And how is it captured?

        Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here.

        • The Al1en 5.2.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 12:05 pm

          Oh ffs. Is that really where you’re at? 🙄

          It's crystal clear the post is referencing trans supporters having their placards taken off them.

          Psych Nurse is of course at liberty to confirm or deny.

          • Molly 5.2.1.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 12:08 pm

            What post? There is no link on this thread.

            • The Al1en 5.2.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 12:10 pm

              Psych Nurse's post directly above the one you replied to and quoted 🙄

              • Francesca …
                1 April 2023 at 12:19 pm

                Whaaa?

                Some valid message that "Terfs " endorse has been taken up by xxxx – various insults xxxx -Nazi support crew

                But what is that valid message?

                Psych nurse?

                • The Al1en …
                  1 April 2023 at 12:21 pm

                  Any message on anyone's placard or banner contains a valid message to them holding it, whether you agree with it or not.

                  My clearly stated opinion is the nature of the debate shown here is quite deceitful.

                  • The Al1en …
                    1 April 2023 at 12:34 pm

                    And even if it's not a sign or banner but just the pro trans message in general, it's still perfectly valid for those who hold or espouse it.

        • weka 5.2.1.2
          1 April 2023 at 12:32 pm

          as far as I can tell psych nurse is objecting to GC positions being coopted by Nazis.

          • The Al1en 5.2.1.2.1
            1 April 2023 at 12:38 pm

            You're correct, mate, me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick, but validity is still the purview of the holder.

            • Molly 5.2.1.2.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 1:30 pm

              "…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick"

              I asked questions of psych nurse to clarify – whereas you made an assumption – and ran with it – so you include me in your pseudo-acknowledgement above?

              Why don't we just wait for psych nurses reply?

              • The Al1en …
                1 April 2023 at 1:32 pm

                I didn’t need to wait. As an honest person, I admit I probably misread the post, and have now acknowledged it publicly.

              • Robert Guyton …
                2 April 2023 at 8:27 am

                Molly, psych nurse's comment was straightforward and easily comprehended.

                Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading.

                • Molly …
                  2 April 2023 at 10:18 am

                  Robert.

                  I only asked for clarification, and was not the only one who didn't find it "straightforward and easily comprehended."

                  The Al1en also made an assumption, like you right now, and apologised.

                  Psych nurse clarified several hours later.

                  "Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading."

                  Link to where I made any comment in this thread based on assumption.

                  Or preferably, take heed of your own words, because I am not the one who needs them.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:05 am

                    "Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here."

                    I found the whole comment simple to comprehend.

                    Must've been having a moment of clarity in an otherwise befuddled life.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:51 am

                    I wondered at your criticism of my reading comprehension and so tested myself with psych nurse's comment. I was pleased by the result. You might reflect upon your own response.

                    The Al1en did.

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 2:11 pm

                      Robert, if you expect me to retract my justified criticisms of your engagement methods, then you'll be waiting a while.

                      If you persist in asking me to apologise – for something I did not do – just because The Al1en did apologise for something he did, then, again, you'll be waiting a while.

                      Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments either by giving them no merit, or by considering if they do indeed have merit and improving.

                      What you appear to be doing here is lashing out, which contributes nothing to any political discourse.

                      This comment is a prime example of where this kind of exchange ends up, so I'm leaving this – and any other such threads (unless provoked when my patience is low, and my energy is high – which would be against my better judgement).

                      I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis.

                      Let's see how that goes.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 April 2023 at 2:45 pm

                      "Robert, if you expect me to retract…"

                      I don't.

                      "If you persist in asking me to apologise"

                      I'm not.

                      "Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments…"

                      I have none.

                      "What you appear to be doing here is lashing out…"

                      Seriously?? Lashing out???

                      Hmmm…

                      "I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."

                      Ask away.

                      Our cognitive styles seem not to mesh.

                      No worries.

                      I'll hold the fort while you are away.

                      Peace and love etc.

          • psych nurse 5.2.1.2.2
            1 April 2023 at 8:19 pm

            Exactly, woman have every right complaining about transwomen sharing toilets, changing rooms and sport with transwomen, but they need to chose their allies. Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.

            • RedLogix 5.2.1.2.2.1
              1 April 2023 at 8:30 pm

              Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.

              OK I will wade in, if all you have are flogged out labels and sneers – you have lost the argument.

              As human beings trans people, like anyone else, had the right to demand the same access to legal rights and human dignity as anyone else. No-one here for one second has denied you this.

              What you then went and did was to collapse your entire humanity down to your mere sexual identity. And then demand everyone else accept every implication of this.

            • weka 5.2.1.2.2.2
              1 April 2023 at 8:54 pm

              I agree, but I see the problem being less about KJK and her associations with the far right, than the fact that the left/liberals used No Debate to shut down progressive GC voices. That's why KJK exists the way she does. There are conservative people with skin in this game. If we want to win, we have to empower progressives to use their voice, or the whole thing will be framed within conservative values, and that doesn't serve women or trans women.

              • Robert Guyton …
                2 April 2023 at 9:13 am

                Weka – Frank's usually supported here; what do you make of the points he's presenting?

                "

                By now, Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (aka, Posie Parker) has come and gone. Her mission – to amplify a particularly pernicious form of transphobia (under the cloak of “women’s rights”) – an abject failure. As a marketing exercise to peddle her wares, it went well.

                A self-style "woman’s rights activist" Keen-Minshull/Parker has strident views, including rejecting trans women as women. She has been active throughout Britain, Scotland, Australia, and United States.

                In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."

                https://frankmacskasy.substack.com/p/5-reasons-why-provocateur-parkers

                • Molly …
                  2 April 2023 at 10:43 am

                  In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."

                  HRC is an organisation that should be able answer the questions put forward by KJK while actively lobbying for legislation on those issues;

                  This is a blogpost on the HRC -1st of 3:

                  https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/all-aboard-the-human-rights-campaign-and-the-making-of-transgender-industry-leaders-part-i

                  A bit of background to your quoted item here:

                  https://twitter.com/WomensLibFront/status/1300574218908823552?s=20

                  Now, you don't have to believe or be convinced by such accounts, but you have been introduced to a different perspective.

                • Shanreagh …
                  2 April 2023 at 10:55 am

                  People are able to have a view, whether it is supported by the facts or evidence is quite another thing.

                  I have found Frank Macskasy a bit reactionary over the last few years and so stopped reading him. Perhaps I'll start again.

                  I've found I cherish the progressives more and am willing to read from any side and some times time does not allow diving into Frank's views.

                  As people think more deeply about the issues on 25/3 we are getting more comment from NZ on the implications for free speech, women's rights. This seemed to be the preserve of writers from overseas in the immediate aftermath. They seemed to be seeing what was happening more clearly than our media did or more likely wanted to (seeing at they had worked themselves into a truly tiny corner)

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660282/damien-grant-were-having-a-free-speech-moment-it-isnt-going-well

                  ……

                  "The answer to Kim Hill’s question – why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.

                  We have graduated to a cultural landscape where commercial intimidation and even physical violence is permissible against people if their views are deemed unacceptable by the cultural, political and media leadership.

                  Those in positions of responsibility may wish to reflect on this, rather than stoking further escalation."

                  I don't always agree with Damien Grant but I do on this.

                  I am also concerned at the treating of the Ministership as some sort of private fiefdom where instead of getting measured comment on issues within the portfolio we get pronouncements or personal views driven along by the pronouncers being a Minister. (Granted the media seem unable to unlink the two and this does not help)

                  Marama Davidson seems to be one. You know I don't care about your breathless personal views about the trans community but I do care that you had neither the wit nor sense of reality to work out that any comment supporting or minimising the use of violence against people you disagree with was not appropriate.

                  You know being quite frank 'I couldn't give a big rats a***' what your personal views are Michael Wood and find them quite inappropriate and calling into question the decision making of the officials of the department you are the Minister of. I would have had much more respect had you stood behind the process and supported this.

                  I would paraphrase Abraham Lincoln – Quote – Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

                  "Better to remain silent on issues out of your depth than to comment and to remove all doubt'.

                • Anne …
                  2 April 2023 at 10:56 am

                  An excellent resumé by Frank Macskasy. Thank you Robert.

                  I highlight the following excerpt:

                  "Context: This image was circulated throughout social media:

                  .https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F68b3c2c1-de30-4a73-bc7a-40f7e18bdca9_591x395.png

                  It was presented by Keen-Minshull/Parker’s followers and various far-right individuals that the silver object beside her throat was a knife (or alternatively, scissors). It was supposedly "evidence" of thuggery by counter-protestors at Albert Park.

                  The object was a cellphone, held by one of her minders. The image had been cropped for maximum misrepresentation-effect.

                  Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."

                  Need I say more.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:05 am

                    Anne, this slur about the scissors was comprehensively walked back some days ago……Molly & Weka had a discussion.

                    Perhaps you and Frank could elucidate.

                    The point I took from this picture was that it was so dangerous out there for KJM that her security first had to close guard, walking with someone with arms and shoulders linked around her, to actually having to lift her for speed so she was almost parallel to the ground.

                    • Anne …
                      2 April 2023 at 11:17 am

                      It was a deliberate attempt to help promote the image of mass thuggery coming from the protesting crowd. The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 11:35 am

                      @Anne

                      More details from whoever posted the original screen shot from the livestream, would be good to know. But unfortunately, I don't know who that was. The images were being deleted and/or corrected even as I was having a conversation with weka, only a few hours after the event.

                      Many were watching the livestream concerned that they were seeing a woman in extreme physical danger. The livestream shows a degree of the chaos and confustion, and it abruptly cut out for several minutes in the middle of it.

                      https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20

                      In that resulting distress, people were looking for answers and details, and I also thought this was information coming through. But as I said, people with saner heads at a time of confusion, almost immediately reined that interpretation in.

                      The social media accounts I followed, corrected and or deleted and did not circulate that image further. (Mind you, I don't have a Facebook or any other social media account, so I don't know if this is true on those platforms).

                  • Molly …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:19 am

                    It never really got traction in the social media environment which I inhabit thanks to the integrity of commentators like weka.

                    Thanks to her timely and accurate reminder, I spent several hours posting corrections like this (along with others) on Twitter:

                    https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20

                    That interpretation disappeared quite quickly (within 24hrs) from GC discourse.

                    Do a couple of searches on Twitter “posie parker ” + “scissors” or “KJK” + “scissors” to see who continued to promulgate this story.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      2 April 2023 at 11:31 am

                      Thank you Molly. I wonder am I to go on for the rest of my life resisting people who use this and other unproven points about the so-called 'lovely, sun loving, fun loving protest, at Albert Park on 25/3.

                      Did the woman with the fractured skull run into someone's opened sunscreen lotion bottle or the keep cup with the decaf double shot hazelnut chai latte in it?

                      /Sarc

                    • Shanreagh …
                      2 April 2023 at 11:41 am

                      Well clearly the lovely Frank is one.

                      Why?

                      What would be his rationale for repeating something that has been debunked…..I couldn't possibly imagine. /sarc

                    • Anne …
                      2 April 2023 at 11:59 am

                      That was just one example mentioned and I concede it was quickly discarded by mainstream media at the least. But I recommend this morning's media watch programme on the subject from non-partisan folk who were actually present at the scene:

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018883958/media-mismatch-on-an-out-of-control-mob

                      There was a lot of 'unreality' bandied about by the usual local suspects as well as the overseas media. It always amuses me how much more coverage the reporting of false data receives over the actual facts of a particular situation.

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 12:10 pm

                      @Anne

                      Thanks for conceding the point regarding the image.

                      However, what point is it that you are trying to make with the RNZ link?

                      Is it that because some people did not witness it, the violence against women has been exaggerated?

                      I just want to note, that in the footage of the woman being beaten I can see my daughter and partner about 3m away, and they had no idea that it was taking place directly behind them.

                      The noise was painfully loud at within the rotunda area that the #LetWomenSpeak attendees were in, once those demonstrators broke through.

                  • Molly …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:44 am

                    "Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."

                    Need I say more."

                    CPAC is a political group – it's What We Believe page is here:

                    https://www.conservative.org/what-we-believe/

                    Apart from the wholesale support of capitalism (expected) the rest is fairly straightforward.

                    I don't know the full details of the sponsorship deal – and to be honest I don't care that much. IIRC, Kellie-Jay Keen says that CPAC offered the sponsorship deal partly to give the #LetWomenSpeak events liability cover under their organisation. The cost of liability cover for #LetWomenSpeak events was/is prohibitively high. So the formal sponsorship, removes that expense.

                    (There is a video where this is related, but I'm not going to trawl through it all to find it, but will post if I come across or remember where to look).

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 April 2023 at 2:33 pm

                      "Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion."

                      Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 2:57 pm

                      @Robert Guyton

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943235

                      My request:

                      "I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."

                      Your response:

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943242

                      *Ask away"

                      and this as a complete response:

                      "Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…"

                      I'll be noting such stalking from now on.

                      It'll be a numbers exercise, my impression of you is becoming increasingly fixed.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:55 am

                    Macskasy's article, and the responses to Robert Guyton's comment on same, highlight the fact that, when it comes to 'Posie Parker', some opinions are poles apart.

                    Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell whether she can reach the ‘heights’ of Pauline Hanson – based on PP’s recent encounters down under, imho she has a shot – exclusivity has popular appeal.

                    We will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. – DeSantis

                    A new age of democratic extremes [4 November 2022]

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 April 2023 at 12:00 pm

                      "Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell if she can reach the heights of Pauline Hanson – based on her recent time down under, she has a shot, imho – exclusion is the name of her 'game'."

                      Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      2 April 2023 at 12:10 pm

                      Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.

                      Don't know about cynical, but I’ll not throw ‘PP caution’ to the wind.

                    • Incognito []
                      2 April 2023 at 12:13 pm

                      Perhaps Robert meant sceptical, but I’m cynical about that 😉

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 April 2023 at 12:22 pm

                      I did mean "sceptical", Incognito.

                      I've been, and am presently being, distracted by a 4-man South Korea film crew that has been filming our every move over the past 3 days. I'm just managing to fit in quick glimpses of TS as they set up this scene and that scene, and so am finding it difficult to always choose the right worm.

                      It was a joke).

                    • Incognito []
                      2 April 2023 at 12:56 pm

                      All good, Robert, although some here consider it not a laughing matter.

                      I assume the filming is not for a K-Pop documentary called Guyton Style.

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 1:56 pm

                      "Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. "

                      Yes. That is a strategy that was outlined a while ago, and many GC's know of it.

                      Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion.

                      When the idea was first mooted in GC circles to create a party where protest votes could be given, it was treated as a passing fancy.

                      But the strategy of such a move became apparent.

                      The creation of a political party would increase the likelihood of the discussion occurring in the political sphere. There is also the added benefit of political engagement and speeches being adequately protected by the authorities. Thereby, avoiding such debacles similar to that we had in Auckland last week.

                      Elaine Miller, used a similar strategy when contesting a Scottish by-election last year.

                      https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2023/01/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-elaine-miller/

                      KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member. I don't know if she has long term ambition to be a politician, I do know that she (and her support team) are constantly looking to get a public conversation going by whatever legitimate means they can.

                      I think this might have some success in that objective.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      2 April 2023 at 4:26 pm

                      KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member.

                      If your knowledge is right, then when and why KJK left the party.

                    • Molly …
                      2 April 2023 at 4:45 pm

                      KJK occasionally mentions it on videos or interviews, but it is hard to search videos if you don't know the exact ones.

                      Here though is a 2018 article from the Spectator. Sorry, I can't quote anything, – I've moved from my phone to here to post the link, and I am out of free articles:

                      https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-s-refusal-to-accept-the-definition-of-a-woman/

                      IIRC, the "woman – adult human female "billboard was put up outside a Labour party conference, as women were unable to get Labour politicians to meet or acknowledge concerns raised by party members.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      2 April 2023 at 5:26 pm

                      Thanks for that link to the 2018 article in The Spectator. Looks like KJK was a Labour party supporter, so probably a member too.

                      Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble left Labour; Ruth Richardson and Don Brash left the Nats. They found(ed) a new home – ACT.

                      Which of NZ's political parties might have policies that align best with KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'"?

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    2 April 2023 at 11:56 am

                    "Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation.""

                    If that is the case, you need say no more, imo.

                    Such information casts a shadow over the bright and breezy claim that the woman was "merely an advocate for women".

                    • Shanreagh …
                      2 April 2023 at 12:37 pm

                      Has someone actually said

                      "merely an advocate for women".

                      Because women see no merely about it. She is an advocate for women.

                      In my view it is time that people started realising that women are quite grown up, we exercise our brains, we can reference, we can assimilate/discern across multiple often competing view, we can see through charlatans and having done all this – we can make up our own minds about the message. In short to use the vernacular 'We can walk and chew gum'.

                      I see no need to disregard a message because the person may have political aspirations or because she need funding to meet insurance levies or for whatever reason mainstream funding sources were not aviable to her.

                      Don't you think that the messages she has given about women's rights and women's issues are worth a look?

                      Trustworthy groups such as Speak Up for Women and Mana Korereo Wahine support the kaupapa of Let Women Speak which is what it is all about.

                      In the No Debate Self ID crock the voices of women and our concerns were silenced.

                      You know if a red giraffe wearing thigh waders came to NZ, sponsored by the Pink Panthers Association to moo (or whatever giraffes do) about women's issues I'd go and see it (with a translator of course).

                      Please focus on the issues that have been raised and let us know why the concerns of women should not be addressed.

                      Trust us too.

                      We have done the mahi, researched the issues and the people. You don't need to second guess or 'warn' us

                      Actually KJM's work has received a huge boost in NZ with people being able to see that there are groups determined to restrict free speech, to 'deserving' people only, and restrict it by the use of force if necessary.

                      A joke?
                      I’m sorry I am a women and I don’t have a sense of humour attuned to that kind of ‘joke’ Robert.

                      My jokes are clearer like
                      What is brown and goes at 100k through custard?
                      A prune with an outboard motor.

                      and

                      Knock knock
                      Who’s there
                      Arthur
                      Arthur who?
                      Are there any mince pies left?

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 April 2023 at 2:39 pm

                      My "joke" was concerning the word, "worm", Shanreagh.

                      Being "mis-taken" seems de rigueur with this issue.

                      If we can maintain a dignified semi-respect for each other for a while longer, we might (we, being those commenting here) make it through the testing-time.

      • weka 5.2.2
        1 April 2023 at 12:34 pm

        yeah, I don't see how the Nazis are a support crew. As you say, they're trying to capture the women's rights issues and turn them into bigotry.

        the problem with the word terf: terfisaslur.com/

        • Robert Guyton 5.2.2.1
          2 April 2023 at 2:40 pm

          "Attendant crew" more.

          Moths to a flame.

          Bats to a bleeding toe.

        • Shanreagh 5.2.2.2
          2 April 2023 at 5:18 pm

          @Robert Guyton…….I cannot see the word worm in the post I am referring to. Is it in one of the links?

          I also don't get the Mis-taken unless it is some poor take on miss. But then I am a woman and I've got no sense of humour. I am not away of a testing-time…this implies some sort of ending. I'm not sure this will end.

          I can see how easily it would be for a party other than Labour or Greens to swoop in, put up a policy stating that BDM/safe spaces will be reviewed to see if it is fit for purpose for women, and a wave of women will go there, or at least have a close look..

          If you want my honest opinion…the way will become clearer if you read, thought about, noted questions, asked them in a genuine manner and then reflected again on the answers. Then asked any queries.

          Perhaps you might find it easier to read the rights based arguments that RW males have that enables them to see where we are coming from. RedLogix and TSmithfield have insights here, TS particularly with the chauvinism idea.

          This one shot, 'smarty pants' way of interacting when we are trying to help you expand your knowledge is very off putting.

          Many of us have had years, literally decades some of us in groups relating to women's issues, some of us have studied issues to stage 3 Uni levels at the time of the 1970s/80s wave, others since. Others of us have knowledge on human rights, civil rights, unions and are making the link through this. Others have lived the experience of the shifting sands of woman's issues through the fights to be able to live with our loved ones, marry/civil union them. I would venture to say there is not much that Women commentators on TS don't know about the issues.

          We love to help those with a genuine interest.

      • Psycho Milt 5.2.3
        1 April 2023 at 12:37 pm

        "Eveyone I don't like is a Nazi" is a contender for most annoying feature of the 'progressive' left. It's appallingly disrespectful to victims of the Nazis, for a start.

        • Mike the Lefty 5.2.3.1
          1 April 2023 at 9:29 pm

          Just as annoying is the political right's way of proclaiming that anyone from the left is a communist or Stalinist (Jacinda has been called such many a time) except that oddly enough it hardly raises an eyebrow anymore despite Stalin's appalling record on human rights.

          • RedLogix 5.2.3.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 9:41 pm

            Both the left and right have spawned monsters. But to be fair the legitimate, moderate right has fully, loudly and repeatedly repudiated the Nazis and fascism ever since the end of WW2. While not the same could be said for the broad left of it's catastrophic historic embrace of marxism. I still see plenty of minimising and weaseling on this and a persistent blindness to the modern forms it has morphed into.

            Of course this does not mean there are not extremists on both sides who still embrace the old madness'. Mainly for the attention-seeking shock value I sometimes think.

            • Mike the Lefty 5.2.3.1.1.1
              2 April 2023 at 12:13 pm

              When you boil all the rhetoric away, there is actually little difference between the extreme left and extreme right. They use the same methods to control people – violence and intimidation.

        • Sanctuary 5.2.3.2
          2 April 2023 at 9:38 am

          Wait until you see this one, it is hilarious.

          https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1642045592158507009

          • Charlotte Rust 5.2.3.2.1
            2 April 2023 at 11:07 am

            Frankly they can have woman. I’ve always thought it was a slightly offensive word as if we are something just tacked onto the side of men, literally wife man. About as offensive as woman being created from Adam’s rib. I am in favour of women now othering themselves as femme or femina.

        • MichaelP 5.2.3.3
          4 April 2023 at 5:29 am

          100% Psycho Milt.

          The word is being used so often that it becomes meaningless as a slur.

          Those who throw it about should do some reading / watching / listening to the vast amount of documentation available about The Holocaust Then hopefully they may start to understand what sort of person a real Nazi actually is, rather than just someone who disagrees with them.

          It's a common tactic the "no debate" types use to shut down any discussion. (You're a nazi so I don't need to debate with you)

          It's the same with words like facist, racist, transphobic, etc.

  6. Francesca 6
    1 April 2023 at 10:26 am

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266

    Women in a sorority object to transwoman with visible erect penis in their single sex spaces

    It's a girl dick though right?

    • Molly 6.1
      1 April 2023 at 10:51 am

      After an eye-roll at the headline: "…to challenge induction of transgender member", the rest of the article is an interesting read, of the special treatment given to that member in terms of criteria and induction.

      The failure of many to understand how in such cases, single-sex provisions for women allow them to just get on with their day, with objectification is astounding.

      The article points out clearly some of the impacts.

      “The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in.

      “Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said.

      The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.

      Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.

      Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. “

      Reposted link:
      https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266

      • Francesca 6.1.1
        1 April 2023 at 11:16 am

        Thanks Molly .I no longer have the facility to copy and paste (frozen touch pad syndrome)

        • Molly 6.1.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 11:32 am

          I sympathise.

          (I'm using an ancient laptop with keyboard and trackpad issues, so I resort to an onscreen keyboard, or a phone which either has issues with what I'm asking it to do, or that emphasises my fat finger syndrome to the detriment of efficient posting.)

    • Terry 6.2
      1 April 2023 at 10:53 am

      That’s really taking the piss. I’d be surprised if anyone would support this type of behaviour. Even a teenage boy would know that he’s been a bit dodgy.

      Bad or inappropriate behaviour like what is described in the article is not acceptable, and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it.

      anyone condoning or justifying it should be called out.

      Just not acceptable. Ever.

      • RedLogix 6.2.1
        1 April 2023 at 12:11 pm

        Exactly. So much of this debate swirls around various arcane ideological rabbit holes, when I just see bad behaviour from weak, immature people with no internal boundaries.

        • MichaelP 6.2.1.1
          4 April 2023 at 5:48 am

          Yea but in instances like this one the bad behaviour is enabled by whichever beauracrats decide that allowing a man to join a sorority is ok. (In fact anyone or any organisation that panders to this nonsense)

          The young women involved should never have been put in the position of having to deal with this bad behavior in the first place

      • weka 6.2.2
        1 April 2023 at 12:23 pm

        it's a feature not a bug.

        • RedLogix 6.2.2.1
          1 April 2023 at 1:36 pm

          The large majority of men – men who work for a living, support and provide for their families, act as a good parent, and will sacrifice themselves to protect their family, community and nation – think of this simmering alphabet soup of sex and gender variation as a bit of an aberration; to be tolerated but scarcely embraced.

          I have three close family members, each with a relatively rare genetic condition that has had a dramatic impact on their lives. (I may have referenced some of this in the years past, I am not going to detail any here.) The fact of these conditions is something that takes nothing away from their human rights, and expectation that others will treat them with the ordinary courtesy and dignity afforded anyone. Nor does it subtract one jot from my expectation that their disability will be an excuse for bad behaviour. And of course as family they are loved.

          But frankly their disability has been a monstrous pain in the arse, changing the course of not just their lives, but all around them. It has massively curtailed their potential to function, achieve and contribute – to be the people they could have been. If any sane person had the a choice in the matter, they would not ask for these disabilities. They are not desirable permutations of the human condition.

          Looping then back to the sex/gender issue this comment is about. Where there is a reasonable case for a genetic pre-disposition, or indeed some environmental hormonal disruption that skews the usual path of gender expression – then like most people I am willing to be compassionate and accepting to the extent reasonable on the matter. To repeat this does not diminish their rights as a human being, nor the usual social obligation to treat them with courtesy and respect. You have been very clear on this all the way through and we agree on this.

          Just do not try and tell me however these conditions are 'normal', or should be promoted as such. These transgender activists seem to be calling for a free – state-funded – ‘revolutionary genital tourism’ whereby you can, with chemicals or surgery or both, shift at will from being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ or surgically/chemically ‘non-binary.' And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom.

          The 'progression' of this dark agenda is now fairly plain to see, first getting everyone to accept that gender expression is fluid, now dismantling biological sex, after this I anticipate will come the idea that age itself is a mere social construct.

          To be clear, the gender/sexual politics of all this does not interest me much. Rather it is the undeniable erosion of stable family formation and structure across much of the world, and the accompanying social and economic dysfunction that always flows from this, is I believe is larger picture most people are either not seeing, or do not feel safe to speak to.

          • Molly 6.2.2.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 1:48 pm

            'And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom."

            That is a strategy acknowledged by many women, across the political spectrum. However, it sometimes appears to be more clearly recognised and emphatically stated by those with "conservative" politics and viewpoints.

            Some seem to have an internal censor that inhibits open acknowledgement. Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue – I don't know.

            • RedLogix 6.2.2.1.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 2:22 pm

              Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue

              I wrote an article here some time back that touches on this.

              .https://thestandard.org.nz/trifold-politics-and-boundaries/

              This idea of boundaries should be intuitively familiar to most women; most will have had a bad encounter at some point in their lives with someone who lacks them. And all too often it was an immature, weak male who lacking the ability to control his innate capacity for aggression (both active and passive).

              On this point, I would argue that much of the debate around violence misses the point that men are innately more physically dangerous than women. Evolutionary sexual selection ensured we would be this way. On average the difference is not very large, we are a dimorphic species, but not excessively so. But at the extremes almost all of the worst offenders will be male; this being an inevitable outcome of how normal distributions work.

              But in my view the idea this is biological reality is a social construct, an 'oppressive, misogynistic patriarchy' is not only rather uninteresting, it simply leads us nowhere useful. Thus decades of talking about the scourge of IPV and no change in the outcome.

              The correct solution to violence is not to demand men should be weak and harmless, but they are socialised to control their innate aggression and direct it constructively. The role of childhood rough play, adolescent initiation into manhood, male bonding in challenging situations into effective, disciplined teams are all traditional facilitations of this.

              But you are of course correct, none of this acceptable left wing discourse.

          • Shanreagh 6.2.2.1.2
            1 April 2023 at 2:17 pm

            Thank you Redlogix.

            I have thought long and hard about our institutions such as religion and the patriarchy, including the notion of the nuclear family.

            My conclusion is that generally they may be a force for good for many.

            But not all especially not all women, I know though that there are many men who have welcomed the results of the fight that women have had on access to maternity leave as it has enable them to participate more in their children's little lives.

            In the religion I grew up in women are able to participate to the fullest in ministering.

            My ongoing view is that though we may consent to be governed, this is not for all time and we must watch like hawks to make sure the two institutions work for all women.

            Unlike other types of activism, referenced by Stuart Munro women's activism is never done.

            Stuart Munro13

            31 March 2023 at 7:12 pm

            Activists, having achieved any measure of success, are disempowered by it. They must find new careers, or fresh problems, if they substantially resolve the ones that initially motivated them.

            I have noted before being shocked after a period out of the public service at the lack of simple knowledge of institutional racism or sexism held by one CE I came across. Held by him and thus promulgated across his managers. This was 2005.

            • RedLogix 6.2.2.1.2.1
              1 April 2023 at 2:47 pm

              Yes – all good points. In writing the comment above I was aware of two matters I should clarify.

              One is that in drawing an analogy between a genetic condition that is physical in nature, and one that expresses itself primarily in a social context – are not the equivalent things in every respect, but the moral argument is broadly similar enough to convey the point I wanted to make.

              And yes there is no reason to demand everyone fits within the traditional structures. Growing up in my rather small extended family I had an older aunt who lived in a same sex relationship all her life. This long before it became fashionable as such. As far as we were concerned it was just who she was and there was never any negative comment or disrespect about it. But it was a private matter, and not something she imposed on others.

              While I am sure she would have encountered the usual run of bigots and nosey parkers, as far as I am aware she never allowed this to hold her back from living a full and good life, both socially and professionally. And she had a rather marvelous collection of fast cars and motorbikes. cheeky

        • MichaelP 6.2.2.2
          4 April 2023 at 5:58 am

          Flippin' heck I just took a really long time to write a post (Which, on my phone is much more of a chore than anyone might think) explaining my point

          Wish I had the sharps to have just nailed it like that instead Weka! laugh

          • weka 6.2.2.2.1
            4 April 2023 at 9:39 am

            haha, usually it's me writing a novel and someone else coming along and saying it more succinctly in a sentence.

  7. ianmac 7
    1 April 2023 at 10:32 am

    Newsroom has a new regular post called "Raw Politics."

    Welcome to Raw Politics, Newsroom's new, election year weekly video podcast, with Tim Murphy, Jo Moir and Sam Sachdeva. This week: Stuart Nash's demise, Jacinda's Ardern's valedictory and Marama Davidson's ticking off by the PM.

    I listened to most of it but think it is a "lets explore every little dark place in which to amplify the terrible management of the Government." Spiteful I reckon especially from Tim Murphy.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/the-raw-of-the-crowd?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=ababd46e25-Week+In+Review+28.03.2023&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-ababd46e25-95522477

    • Anne 7.1
      1 April 2023 at 12:56 pm

      Watched it ianmac but probably too early to judge. What with the PP debacle and the Stuart Nash sacking, it was largely about Hipkins and his handling of both situations. I thought he handled them as well as could be expected in the circumstances.

      I did think it was a bit underhand to claim this govt. was bumbling on (my words) without demonstrating any vision for the future ("bread and butter issues don't cut it" Murphy said) when we have the budget coming up in a matter of weeks where all will be revealed.

  8. Molly 8
    1 April 2023 at 10:41 am

    First person account of the police involvement in the lead up to the #LetWomenSpeak event, and their actions on the day.

    Worth the listen:

    https://youtu.be/TJ9FqiNcV80

    • Psycho Milt 8.1
      1 April 2023 at 11:14 am

      If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview. It leaves only two possible explanations for the Police failure to maintain public order and protect the mob's victims:

      1. The liaison with the women organising the event was genuine, but the officers involved received instructions from their superiors to stand down and leave the women to face the mob alone.

      2. The liaison was duplicitous from the start and the officers involved never had any intention of doing what they were agreeing to.

      Option 2 may sound far-fetched, but don't underestimate the misogyny infesting the police force. Here's a reminder of how some of them see women:

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-case-ruined-my-life-says-rickards-accuser/TDKSJMQY5S7U5KLVGPIZZFHD2A/

      • Molly 8.1.1
        1 April 2023 at 11:27 am

        Linda speaks well throughout the interview despite – as you mention – Plunket's unnecessary interruptions.

        (I did enjoy the rebuke at the beginning when Plunket corrected her "rotund" error. A couple of pointed digs around that later for emphasis from a woman that has just had enough).

        The personal experience shared sounds credible, even if it does put the police actions and inactions in a very poor light. It does raise real questions about political influence as well.

        It also gives voice to the very real threat that women experienced that has been routinely ignored or downplayed by some commentators, media and politicians.

      • tc 8.1.2
        1 April 2023 at 11:29 am

        Police not doing the job we think they should be doing's a theme.

        Parliament occupation, Brian tamaki's many antics and P houses left untouched whilst the next street over gets chopper, patrol cars etc to sieze a few plants.

        Nationals police force….they get in costers goneburger.

      • RedLogix 8.1.3
        1 April 2023 at 1:54 pm

        The critical point that many have missed – is that once PP and the women attending the event were thoroughly intimidated, and in some cases assaulted, the Police immediately swung into action, bundling PP to safety in a waiting car, then into protective custody first at the Police station, then at the airport and even escorting her onto the plane.

        PP herself has had nothing but good things to say about these officers who did look after her after the crisis. Nor is there any reason to think the handful of officers inside Albert Park who were plainly either under-resourced or under instructions to stand down, can be reasonably accused of misogyny.

        Nah – like many people here I strongly suspect this was a political act. All the dots are sitting there waiting to be joined up – and it will only take one disgruntled person to do it. Who knows, maybe a certain ex-Minister of Police.

        • Molly 8.1.3.1
          1 April 2023 at 3:37 pm

          From other accounts from women present, it was security that directed KJK to the stationary police, and perhaps even into the car. The police then had to act, and standard responses kicked in.

          The police – despite requests – also did not go to the rotunda to assist the remaining women AFAIK.

          If anyone has evidence or accounts that contradict this, I'd appreciate it being posted.

          • weka 8.1.3.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 3:47 pm

            People made 111 calls to the police from the rotunda, afaik these were ignored.

            The police had more than enough time to get more bodies on site to manage what was happening. The question is why they didn't.

          • RedLogix 8.1.3.1.2
            1 April 2023 at 5:53 pm

            Plunket had an interview with PP yesterday that covered the events off from her perspective in some detail. I was merely going on that account.

            I agree it was probably the people providing her security – and they deserve a good deal more plaudits for their courage than has been credited to them so far – that got her away from the rotunda down to the street.

            It is my interpretation that the Police on the ground, once they realised just how out of hand things had gotten, finally had to ignore instructions and do the right thing.

  9. The Al1en 9
    1 April 2023 at 11:18 am

    Well worth the read.

    Perceptions of Censorship and Moderation Bias in Political Debate Forums.

    https://ojs.aaai.org/index.php/ICWSM/article/view/15002/14852

    In this paper, we contribute new insight into the differences between perceived and actual bias in an online community’s attempt to facilitate productive exchange on controversial issues.

    • Shanreagh 9.1
      1 April 2023 at 12:40 pm

      So as to make/keep a debate going what are your conclusions?

      Do they apply to any fora you post in?

      • The Al1en 9.1.1
        1 April 2023 at 12:42 pm

        I suggest you read the FAQ.

        Suggesting how the site should be run or complaining about moderation is a sure way to cop a self martyr ban.
        But the conclusions in the report does contain the following…

        “We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated,even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups”

        • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 1:35 pm

          Yes I did read that.

          I also read the suggestion, that I disagree with, that the rules be excruciatingly specific. The theory of specificism is law or similar is well known. For instance many believe in the fair, large and liberal approach where an incomplete and general list is put up. This tends include rather than exclude ideas, words that are similar to those instanced .

          The other approach is that the words are included are all that are covered.

          I see the benefit in phrases such as say 'apply commonsense' (fair, large & liberal)

          rather than an exhaustive list of words trying to convey this.

          The trouble with the exhaustive list approach is that if we leave off an example people may argue that this is not covered by 'commonsense' and so is not covered by the moderation.

          I look on moderation as a way to get the best out of us and our arguments thus making them clearer and more persuasive to a greater audience. I don't see it is censorship. Not do I think it is designed to please the majority. We can all slip up and not link or link competently (my common mod)

          I can recall several posters espousing uncommon views, who put them up and had a number of posters against them. They put them up again, same thing occurs perhaps several times.

          The next post is full of ad homs against other posters, Mods, others with different views. They are moderated. They perhaps put up their immoderate views as they were tired of posters being 'agin their views.

          I sometimes think that those holding minority views on site are often those whose views on another site or out in town square NZ are in fact majority views. So they are coming to a site they know does not espouse their views per se (and we have a number of wonderful posters on here who do that).

          Anyway, a very interesting read.

          I am a great supporter of moderation as I believe it helps us add to the sum of knowledge. It is not designed to make us all support vanilla views, but to draw out the hokey pokeys and boysenberries of this world…..a drawn out metaphor.

          • The Al1en 9.1.1.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 1:38 pm

            As I said, it's well worth the read, and hopefully some comfort to our missing friends.

            • Anne 9.1.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 6:55 pm

              Yes. There are quite a few who have bailed from this site. I don't blame them. There seems to be a bit of a pack mentality currently developing. You know… 'you gotta completely agree with us cos if you don't we're gonna run you out of town' kind of attitude. Not all commenters (or authors) are guilty of this of course.

              Hopefully TS can soon revert to its former environment where people were able to argue the pros and cons (because they always exist) about an issue with reasonable safety – and not a little humour when it was appropriate.

            • Tiger Mountain 9.1.1.1.1.2
              1 April 2023 at 7:15 pm

              Adrian gets a bollocking, and so have I over time from LPRENT for supporting Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and Mike Smith. “fool” is how I have been characterised, so I generally self censor to be able to keep posting here.

              Which is strange in a way because a look at the archive over a decade or more shows how supportive I have been of Mr Prent for keeping the site going and tackling the likes of SlaterOil in court proceedings.

              But hey, no one is perfect and the ultimate counter for whinging posters I guess is obvious–“pay for your own server and site and say what you like!”

              • Incognito …
                2 April 2023 at 1:13 pm

                I get the feeling that you hadn’t read the article that The Al1en had linked to @ 9.

                Your perception of the alleged ‘bollockings’ is a misrepresentation and mischaracterisation stemming from your bias of censorship and moderation on TS and how things work here.

                ‘Bollocking’, moderating, or banning here is generally not because of viewpoints but of how well or rather how badly one argues for them. Poor arguments can raise the ire of those who don’t suffer fools.

                I hope this clears up some of your misunderstandings.

        • Incognito 9.1.1.2
          2 April 2023 at 7:54 pm

          Your quote was so selective it was self-serving. Here’s the full quote with the relevant missing part in my italics:

          We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated, even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups. We found, however, that the effect of this bias is much smaller than how the issue is represented.

          You referred to this site’s FAQ but, of course, it is in the Policy (https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/).

          It is quite evident from your comments in this thread that you were trying to be subtle, as not to fall into the self-martyrdom hole, and that your intention was to take a swipe at moderation here on TS. You can’t have it your way; say what you mean and mean what you say or you say nothing at all.

          Your ‘missing friends’ have had their commenting privileges revoked because of their own actions and not because of poor and unfair moderation. Acknowledging my own biases, I think your insinuations (!) are inaccurate and unfair. I do acknowledge that on some ‘hot topics’ moderation can become more biased and heavy-handed than strictly necessary. Mods are not perfect and the ones that don’t have anything left in the tank take a break, tend to leave on their own accord, or have their Moderation rights revoked.

          I hope this helps. When you feel the need to criticise Mods and/or Authors please don’t try to be too subtle and clever for your own good angel

          • The Al1en 9.1.1.2.1
            2 April 2023 at 8:11 pm

            I'm usually brick subtle but obviously not on here, but as for selective, even if your point is true and the level is much smaller than represented, you'd agree it's still there.

            • Incognito 9.1.1.2.1.1
              2 April 2023 at 8:30 pm

              It was and is not my point, it is the finding and conclusion of one study of one online group (community), i.e., of Ravelry’s BID. My guess is that it is always present to some degree because it is inevitable when dealing with humans and human [online] interactions. If you were to ask if it is present here and does it present a problem I’d say “No”, but with the qualifiers that I’ve already mentioned in my previous comment. And no, I would not say this because I’m one of the Mods. I’d say it because I comment and occasionally author here, i.e., if it were a problem [for me], and more akin some other NZ political blog sites, I’d leave immediately and stop spending hours of my time on here. TS is the best of the bunch – spoken with real and genuine bias.

    • Incognito 9.2
      1 April 2023 at 2:45 pm

      Interesting read, thanks. However, I wouldn’t read too much into it, e.g., extrapolate some of the ‘findings’ and ‘solutions’ to other political blog sites such as TS. Much of it was highly familiar to me, although it seems that none of the authors had any experience as a Mod, but perhaps that was a good thing because it might have induced bias in the study.

      The issue that was not addressed is that of bias within the community/commentariat and the six tags attached to comments (that’s what we call them here on TS, as Posts are submitted by people with TS/WordPress Author status). Many a ban occurs because of and after a heated exchange with other commenters here […] and not all come from or start with a stand-alone comment, i.e., more or less entirely self-inflicted by the offender.

      • The Al1en 9.2.1
        1 April 2023 at 2:51 pm

        You're welcome, and while your here, I think you, personally, do a fairly decent and mostly dispassionate job here.

        • Incognito 9.2.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 3:04 pm

          Appreciated, ta.

          It’s tough to act objectively & impartially (neutrally) given my own biases, likes, and dislikes. I do my best.

          The comment about the high workload of Mods struck a chord – TS receives more comments a month than the Big Issues Debate (BID) group on Ravelry in that study. Of course, not all comments are equal, but it gives you a bit of an idea of how much the two main Mods here on TS wade through!

          If I have time, I will respond to a few other of your comments in this thread, because they leave a few things to the imagination and raise some questions …

          • The Al1en 9.2.1.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 3:05 pm

            To be honest I hope you don't because I don't really feel safe to post freely.

            • weka 9.2.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 3:42 pm

              fwiw, I don't feel safe to post freely either.

              There are some commenters who don't believe this, but the things people get banned for here are pretty simple and most of them come down to people ignoring moderation and wasting moderator time (I cannot emphasis the latter enough).

              I will note an exception however. The last time you were banned, for 6 months, was for calling a woman commenter, who you were politically disagreeing with, "a nasty old cunt". In my time moderating here, that would be at the worst end of the scale for misogyny directed at women. Fortunately its rare and the reason it is rare is because we moderate before it gets to that point, and we curate a culture where its unacceptable.

              We have this rule for good reasons,

              We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

              What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.

              .https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/

              It takes work to create an environment where a range of people want to comment. I've just asked someone to not call a prominent intersex trans person 'it', because it is dehumanising. That kind of language will also put people off from being here. The commenter did a simple acknowledgement, no drama.

              All of which is to say that by far and away the easiest way to not get moderated is to not be an arsehole to the moderators. Imo this largely comes down to intent.

              In the years I was commenting before becoming an author, I often talked to moderators about their decisions and I don't think I've ever been modded for that. It's entirely possible to talk about moderation here without crossing that line. This is why I see relatively easily when people are saying they don't care about TS moderation (and hence the site). I no longer see any point in spending time trying to sort that out. In election year we are just handing out long bans after the first few times, to curate a better debate for the election and to save ourselves the aggro and time.

              • The Al1en …
                1 April 2023 at 3:50 pm

                Why? What are the things you’re worried about writing that will get you banned? I know I have plenty, though I do remember you frequently getting tied in knots before you became a moderator, which I noticed hasn’t happened since.

                • weka …
                  1 April 2023 at 5:07 pm

                  it's not safe for me to talk about my safety concerns 🤷‍♀️

                  My main point was that it's possible to have robust debate here within the moderation boundaries, and it's not a free for all for anyone.

                  • weka …
                    1 April 2023 at 5:12 pm

                    what I'm trying to say is that, calling women cunts aside, people here don't get generally banned for what they say, they get banned for behaviour, often patterns of behaviour. This is good, because it means it's possible to avoid being banned even if one has controversial views.

              • Francesca …
                1 April 2023 at 5:23 pm

                Weka I'm constantly amazed at how fair you are, how incredibly articulate, and how at pains you are to filter your own biases.You make this site far more civil than it would be without you, and for that my admiration has no bounds.You may get triggered at times, but you never lash out

                • weka …
                  1 April 2023 at 6:21 pm

                  🙏

                • Shanreagh …
                  1 April 2023 at 11:34 pm

                  Me too Weka.

                  The words that were used including c**t are unacceptable to me & I am glad they were moderated. Why do we think that people want to see it written. Sounds like a male only worksite of old.

                  Shouldn't we pride ourselves on making our arguments/discussions without this sort of stuff.

                  signed

                  Mother of ten

                  Auckland

                  PS I note though several people on my twitter feed have had other Twitterers having to remove the words as inevitably they use them about others and fall foul of the twitter standards

                • MichaelP …
                  4 April 2023 at 6:18 am

                  Teacher's pet! laugh

  10. Blade 10
    1 April 2023 at 11:44 am

    ''If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview.''

    Cheap shot mainly because Plunket isn't ''Left Media.'' In fact it was the interviewee who was tortuous to listen to, but well worth the effort because, as you say, it was a gobsmacking interview.

    My guess is it's probably some configuration of your No1 explanation. Andrew Costa may have been mulling over the issue, and because of his wokeness, worried about a backlash against the police protecting so called Nazis. Another angle is the Rainbow Community is still not 100% comfortable with the police as an organisation.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/376950/pride-and-police-the-history-issues-and-decisions-behind-the-debate

    • Visubversa 10.1
      1 April 2023 at 12:45 pm

      Plenty of history in the UK of Police doing the enforcement work for gender ideology. Chap called Harry Miller in his "Fair Cop" blog does a good job of exposing it.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118

    • Blade 10.2
      1 April 2023 at 5:10 pm

      Coster, not Costa.

    • Psycho Milt 10.3
      1 April 2023 at 5:17 pm

      I fully accept my characterisation of Plunket's interviewing was a personal opinion! I'm torn between being grateful he's providing a platform for these women to be heard and personally annoyed at his interviewing style.

      Agree that some variant of option 1 is most likely. Either one is bad, though – can't see any way to put a good spin for the police on what happened.

      • Blade 10.3.1
        1 April 2023 at 5:52 pm

        Strange as it may seem, I agree Plunket can interrupt too much. I think he gets impatient, especially with those with a more ponderous style of talking. Plus you will notice he can't sit still. When I get annoyed I just think '' well, it could have been Duncan Garner at the microphone.

  11. gsays 11
    1 April 2023 at 1:01 pm

    Just returned from the Kimbolton Sculpture Festival. Great morning, wide range of art, stall holders and food.

    A couple of observations from snatched excerpts of korero and artists written descriptions of their work. A parade of Mustangs idled their way through the crowd to go on display. More than a couple of comments about how much 'The Greenies' would hate that and 'to enjoy them before they are banned too'. One exhibit was of a heading dog and a cow and calf and a bull. All made out of old pushbike parts and old stuff ftom a shed. The artist reckoned Jacinda and the Greens want to get rid of the cows and this was a reminder of their presence.

    Following the fallout of the Shame @ Albert Park, I was thinking these sorts of rural events is perhaps a better environment for a LWS forum/event/tent. Lower key (but still able to be live streamed), organised and run by locals and anyone wishing to silence the speakers would have to pay $15 to do so.
    You couldn’t repeatedly punch a senior citizen and get away with it in that community.

  12. Incognito 12
    1 April 2023 at 1:44 pm

    Some here might be interested in this:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/300843919/tiktok-is-addictive-for-many-girls-especially-those-with-depression

    Stuff and other MSM have this frustrating habit of not properly referencing let alone linking to the primary source data:

    https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-mental-health-how-girls-really-feel-about-social-media

    Are the reporters afraid that we will check their articles or put them out of a job?

  13. tsmithfield 13
    1 April 2023 at 3:58 pm

    I was thinking about some of RedLogix's posts above.

    Something I was pondering is why women supporting PP have received largely positive support from right-wing males, and also left wing to be fair. But not so much the extreme woke-leaning males.

    I was wondering if it was due to a degree of chauvinism more likely to be still lingering in us right-wingers. In a positive way though. To the extent that we value women in our lives, and recognise that women tend to be physically weaker than males, and therefore more vulnerable in a physical sense. So, seeing women abused or physically threatened tends to activate the evolutionary protective instincts in males.

    On the other hand, many woke males may have had this type instinct replaced with a desire to be protective towards other groups they see as minority, and therefore needing protection, and now just lump biological women in with the majority oppression group.

    • Visubversa 13.1
      1 April 2023 at 4:09 pm

      Perhaps because it gives left leaning men the excuse to be as misogynist as they like under the guise of dumping on the "wrong kind of women".

    • RedLogix 13.2
      1 April 2023 at 4:29 pm

      Well done for a remarkably even-handed analysis; and while it obvious which camp I am located in, I believe you have done justice to the legitimate motives of those in the pro-trans camp as well.

      What intrigues me is much less all the minutiae of the public debate around sexual politics, but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure. Is this not what a legitimate left would want for the people we are supposedly standing up for?

      For example, and as we have discussed elsewhere on a recent thread on education, there is a limit to what schools can do, if a positive home environment is lacking.

      • tsmithfield 13.2.1
        1 April 2023 at 5:00 pm

        while it obvious which camp I am located in,

        Of course. The only reason for using the phrase "right wing" was that there was a lot of support for women coming from the likes of kiwiblog. But also, I recognise there are many such as yourself here as well who are on the same wave length.

        but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure.

        Not an area I studied in deeply, my study being more along the lines of organisational psychology. But what you are saying seems at least intuitively correct.

        But, yes, I think children need stability in their relationships. And, ideally, young boys especially, need to have some positive male role models in their lives in some way or another. Unfortunately, young males often grow up in relationships where their experience of older males is anger and violence. And, it is better for them to be out of those relationships altogether.

        Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.

        The literature suggests male/female differences are in actuality very small. But there are still differences. Not in the way of superiority or anything condescending like that. But more in the way of slight differences due to evolution. So, I think there is value in young men growing up with positive male role models, whether that be through a sporting situation, or club or whatever.

        And, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have more gender confusion now. Because, young men often haven't had that male influence in their lives, and so are confused about what their true identity is. So far as males wanting to transition to female, anyway.

        That is not to say I am blaming women for this state of affairs. More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.

        • RedLogix 13.2.1.1
          1 April 2023 at 5:31 pm

          More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.

          There is no doubting this. Yet professionally you must know that just blaming or hectoring a client to 'be a better person' is rarely an effective clinical tool. The key is to elicit a fresh insight and internal motivation to change. And in this respect much of the usual public discourse yelling at men about how bad they are has probably been remarkably counter-productive.

          As a bit of tangent here, in I would point to the large number of WW1 and WW2 Returned Servicemen, many damaged and traumatised by their experiences as a bit of a social tipping point here. These were the first big wars in our society where there was a large civilian contingent of soldiers (as contrasted to the generally professional cadres who traditionally fought wars in the pre-Industrial era) who returned from overseas to families and communities largely uncomprehending what they had gone through.

          And often with little support but their mates at the RSA and booze. The consequences for their families was often tragic one way or another.

          Then of course we had the 1970's sexual revolution and freely available contraception, that effectively de-coupled sex from reproduction, and diminished the necessity to maintain stable families. Which in turn has spawned generations of fatherlessness.

          I recall a story my partner told me years ago, and it may well be apocryphal but it rings true enough. A prison chaplain had the idea to hand out to inmates Mother's Day cards, that were very well received. It was evidently a good idea and counted a success. However when he attempted to repeat the same idea with Fathers Day cards – it fell very flat indeed. There were almost no takers.

          Or another story from my own experience. When I started in Cubs (this would be the early 60's and progressing through to Scouts I can clearly recall the heavy involvement of whole families. Summer camps especially saw the enthusiastic and valuable contribution from fathers – in all sorts of ways that in hindsight was quite remarkable. We used to do semi-annual suburb wide bottle drives that took whole weekends of hard work, but were an immense amount of fun because everyone pitched in.

          But by the time I progressed into more senior levels in the 70's it suddenly changed. We became a baby sitting service for single mothers and the entire tone shifted. I admire those who persisted with it through this period, but in the end it was not sustainable.

          • tsmithfield 13.2.1.1.1
            1 April 2023 at 6:49 pm

            And the Peter Ellis case had a major impact on male teachers entering the teaching profession I think. Basically, males wanting to enter teaching felt like they would be under suspicion of being pedophiles. I think since then, the number of male teachers plummeted.

            And, some of the modern marketing which seems deliberately aimed at causing gender confusion in children. For instance, my wife's sister purchased a toy pram for her grand daughter. And, the picture on the front had a boy pushing the pram.

            Sure, traditional gender roles are very archaic these days. So, not trying to argue for those. But, this sort of messaging to young children just encourages boys to question their gender I think.

            It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation. If there is a large amount due to modern socialisation, then we are doing our boys a huge dis-service.

            • RedLogix 13.2.1.1.1.1
              1 April 2023 at 7:34 pm

              It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation.

              It is my impression that this 'confusion' manifests itself to varying degrees much more than we think. I think if someone really tried to study this – and I have no idea exactly how – they would find this an almost universal experience in adolescents of both sexes. (In this I have a fair bit of time for Jung's ideas around anima and animus archetypes.)

              But like everything else about adolescence this confusion is transitory. In my view encouraging children to engage in chemical or physical mutilation at this highly vulnerable, suggestible phase of their life is no more defensible than allowing older sexual predators to groom and exploit them sexually.

              As for autogynophelia – that has an almost entirely mid-life onset in males. I hesitate to comment – beyond saying this is probably an entirely separate phenomenon that should not be conflated with the adolescent puberty process.

              I had forgotten about the Peter Ellis case – I agree it was remarkably damaging to teaching in NZ; but parallel events were happening in many places in the world, meaning that teaching became a completely female dominated profession. Even the handful of men left had to modify their approach in order to survive.

              And as far as I am concerned this has been a catastrophe for a significant cohort of young boys as they pass through our education system. The most obvious symptom is the now complete dominance of females at the tertiary level. I don't have any NZ stats to hand, but in the US there is now a 2:1 ratio of female to male graduates – way more when you filter out the STEM subjects. All the indicators suggest young men are piling out of universities and either heading toward technical trades or small business. Or playing video games in their mother's basement.

              A big consequence of this being the rise of the so-called, and much despised, 'incel' movement – a whole cohort of young men who have realised they have almost zero chance of every finding a mate and forming a family. Again we can yell at them as much as we like about how terrible they are – this merely confirms for them the correctness of their world view.

              Or even if we step back from this noisy group and just consider the wider statistic that – again in the US – we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of young men who are not in any kind of sexual relationship even by the age of 30. Not even casually much less formally. And while there is a similar rise for young women it is much smaller.

              And this is before I start mentioning the massive impact of dating apps that enforce a brutal Pareto principle on males – with the top handful of 'high value' males guaranteed of unlimited attention, a modest 15% or so who stand a chance – and the bottom 80% virtually ignored. In essence we are heading back toward a mating structure that looks a lot like serial polygamy than anything else.

              On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.

              Much of the drop in average fertility rates across the world are not so much attributable to smaller family sizes as we like to think. It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation. It is the huge rise of women who never have children who are the big factor here – and while we know this suits some women well enough – for the large majority it becomes a matter of great sadness in later life, not to mention the dire demographic implications for the fate of whole communities and nations.

              This only touches of a few points off the top of my head right now – my overall point is that family structures everywhere are under enormous pressure from many different directions – and not a lot of people on the left are open to talking about this.

              • tsmithfield …
                1 April 2023 at 8:30 pm

                Fascinating discussion. I am finished for the night now, but something we should continue with on another day.

              • Belladonna …
                1 April 2023 at 8:54 pm

                It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation.

                Observationally, this isn't true among the cohort of professional women I know. Having a single child is achievable without completely sacrificing your career – it's exponentially harder with each subsequent child.

                Tied with the fact that professional women are more likely to have their first child when their career is established (so mid 30s or later) – when fertility levels are already dropping.

                Every single one of these single-child women in my friendship/acquaintance group comes from a family of at least 2 siblings.

                Also, observationally, my teen's class would have at least 40% of the kids from single-child families. Growing up, that was really rare – I can only remember possibly 2 or 3 kids in my class who were singletons (much envied by the rest of us, as they didn't have to share their stuff with siblings)

                In NZ, we are 'lucky' that this is balanced by the number of blue and/or white collar workers, who choose to have a higher number of children – at a younger age. Our different cultural mix is a factor here, too (Pasifika and Maori women are more likely to have multiple children – cf Marama Davidson).

                Other countries (Germany and Japan, for example) are considerably more severely affected by this demographic change. And, China is already in demographic free-fall following their one-child policy of the 20th century.

                • RedLogix …
                  1 April 2023 at 9:05 pm

                  I appreciate this assertion around family size is counter intuitive. I gleaned this data from recent work by author and researcher Stephen J Shaw who was just as surprised as anyone else to uncover the real data once you drilled in beneath the aggregate numbers everyone else was looking at.

                  https://www.invertedworld.com/p/birthgap-childless-world-part-1

                  Otherwise yes your point around professional women having more than one child is taken.

              • Belladonna …
                1 April 2023 at 9:07 pm

                On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.

                I think that women (if they are prepared to go the solo-mum route), do have quite a few options.

                Certainly the fertility clinics report increasing numbers of single women, choosing that route, because they are not in a stable relationship – and don't forsee one happening.

                Also, it's relatively easy for women to source 'donations' from male friends (indeed several lesbian couples I know, have done this, (often from gay friends) rather than going down the official route).

                I think that much of the involuntary childlessness is women leaving it 'too late'. Many are still not aware of how radically fertility can drop from late-20s onwards; and several I know had early onset menopause in their 30s.

                We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.

                And, having said all that. I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice. Some of them are devoted aunts and fairy godmothers (but happy to return them at the end of the day); others just aren't really interested in kids at all.

                • RedLogix …
                  1 April 2023 at 9:21 pm

                  Yup to all of those points.

                  I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice.

                  The data Shaw came up with however is that while there are of course some women who happily choose not to have children, it turns out they are a minority. What he found is that around 80% of childless women in later life wound up thus involuntarily – and to varying degrees found this the cause of grief and sadness.

                  To be clear, no-one is suggesting for one moment that women should in any manner be compelled to have children they do not want. I am speaking to the exact opposite here, women who do want a family but find out too late for one reason or another that it never happened.

                  • Belladonna …
                    2 April 2023 at 2:33 pm

                    I'd really like to see the data. I'm suspecting a bit of a biased sample with 80% regret figures.

                    For example: Surveying women who have unsucessfully been through fertility treatment is going to throw up higher 'regret' figures, than surveying highly successful, and childless-by-choice business-women.

                • RedLogix …
                  1 April 2023 at 9:31 pm

                  We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.

                  Yes very much to this.

                  The obvious challenge is that it is almost impossible for a single mother in her early 20's to manage young children and grow a career at the same time. With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.

                  If we normalised life-long learning for all adults, if the political left more aggressively went after long standing workplace prejudices around age – for both young and old – this would help massively.

                  If we dismantled the lie we tell young people that career is the only thing that matters in life, and restored the innate dignity and respect parenthood is rightly due – this might shift the picture again.

                  All this just scratches the surface.

                  • Belladonna …
                    2 April 2023 at 2:51 pm

                    With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.

                    While the support of a partner *can* make having a family and a career possible, it doesn't always do so. And working from home is frequently not realistic with small children (as many families found out during lockdown).

                    Our cultural attitudes assume that managing the family is 'women's work' (and even worse, unpaid women's work). So that means that it is Mum's career which comes second, Mum who has to organize and manage all of the childcare and family organization, and Mum who takes time off work when the kids are sick, or other arrangements fall through. Extended family, means it's Grandma who does all of this (not Grandpa).

                    Case in point. Recent school strike. We have around 30 people where I work who are parents of kids (or Grandparents – extended family) in the affected age group (5-14). In not one instance was it Dad or Grandad who was taking time off work, or arranging for alternative family care – in every case, it was Mum or Grandma.

                    There is absolutely *nothing* stopping Dad stepping up to the plate to either take responsibility or organize alternative care [We are a highly family-friendly firm, and the CEO had already said that we would support families through this by offering working from home, or shifting hours or taking leave – whatever they needed]. It's just an unspoken cultural assumption that Mum will deal with it.

                    I know two highly-paid businesswomen with kids (we became friends when we were all going through the toddler years). In both cases, they went back to work after the first year – and Dad was a SAH Dad. Both women *still managed all of the family organization* – Nannies, Kindy, School admin, sports teams. All of the stuff that a family with kids needs to keep organized and under control. Mum still does it.

        • Belladonna 13.2.1.2
          1 April 2023 at 7:35 pm

          Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.

          And on that topic – a shout-out to the amazing group "Big Buddy" – which does exactly that. Buddy up boys who have no male role models in their lives with blokes who are looking to be mentors.

          An outstanding charity – which makes a positive difference to so many boys.

          https://www.bigbuddy.org.nz/

        • MichaelP 13.2.1.3
          4 April 2023 at 6:56 am

          It seems intuitively obvious that young boys and young girls will benefit greatly from having a positive Male role model (hopefully their Dad) fully involved in their upbringing.

          It would seem the stats back this up (especially for young boys)

          I was lucky enough to have two loving parents (mum and dad) in the same household and am 100% certain it helped me immeasurably.

          Mum taught me how to treat a woman and Dad taught me how to behave towards women (which yes is probably horribly old fashioned these days).

          But growing up observing how Dad treated Mum and behaved to all women (as an absolute gentleman) and the fact that they were married 50 odd years makes me think sometimes that some of these 'old fashioned' ideas are worth keeping.

          I suspect that many young men these days are never taught and have no idea or even concept of what being a gentleman (or just a man) is.

          Sometimes when I see or hear about another female victim of horrific violence or even at the other end of the scale just rudeness I have to remind myself that the way I feel about such things isn't 'built in' ,which is what it feels like but mostly taught or learned.

          I've forgotten my point now…hehehe

          [Good morning, a week ago you agreed to stick to one username + e-mail address (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941759). If you keep using two e-mail addresses, I will permanently ban one of them and your comments will disappear from the radar before the Mods can see & approve them; the Mods won’t be able to restore your comments, even if they’d want to. Your call – Incognito]

      • hetzer 13.2.2
        1 April 2023 at 5:07 pm

        Its certainly been an interesting discussion and raised many things, and hopefully some self reflection too.

        Also been a welcome change from the usual diet of dreary National/Act bad, Labour/Green good, opinion posts. And hasnt it been revealing of assorted politicians and assorted contributors you thought you knew?

        I’ve felt intellectually challenged to think about some things, in a way that I havent, for a long time on the TS.

        • Francesca 13.2.2.1
          1 April 2023 at 5:34 pm

          One thing I've learnt is that my ideas can change and be modified by other commenters.Especially when a commenter lacks animus, is engaging in a genuine exercise to understand ,to articulate how they think and feel, rather than slamming or insulting others

  14. Shanreagh 14
    1 April 2023 at 11:44 pm

    The discussion above has been fantastic……

    Too late now for me to do than skim read but tomorrow I will read in more depth.

    I certainly feel heartened by the good sense here.

    • Shanreagh 14.1
      4 April 2023 at 8:35 pm

      Reading these comments from Belladonna, Redlogix and Tsmithfield again. And the reflections by Hetzer, MichaelP and Francesca.

      I have learned so much from them and I see I have already used your comment TS about chauvinism and seeming RW male support of women's issues……hope I credited you but I fear I may not have. ?

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