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6:00 am, June 4th, 2023 - 68 comments
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https://i.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/132169319/railway-advocate-concerned-railway-line-could-be-mothballed-as-use-drops
Is railway still a good spend , ?
Maybe we should just be going all in on transitioning our trucking fleet to hydrogen .
Got a mate in parts in palmerston north,
If he gets something bought down by train it can take upto 5 days to get in a train off a train and delivered from Auckland.
It's over night by road
Think road maintenance over the next 50 years, including from increasing extreme weather events. Also the problems of hydrogen.
if we want resiliency in the climate age we need to not put all our eggs in one basket. Nature does diversity for a reason.
Pssst occasionally I say things I don't necessarily believe, so I can sit back and learn from the bebate, something I'm not good at, my thinking speed is more entish than elvish.
👍
It's good to have a topic at the top of OM that people can get their teeth into.
When it comes to resilience from extreme weather events, I'm not sure that rail is the best option.
Heavy trains require a much greater degree of safety engineering than roads do. And, there is no possibility of routing around damaged areas, or allowing limited and controlled passage – as you can do for damaged roads undergoing repair.
Comparing the resilience of the road and rail from Wairoa to Napier for example.
Both were washed out and badly damaged (including bridges) in Cyclone Gabrielle (and run pretty much parallel, through the same country). The road has been repaired to some extent – although there are go-slow sections, and ongoing heavy repair work – but cars and restricted-weight trucks can get through.
The rail has no time-frame on the repair.
https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/news/300-damage-sites-on-wairoa-napier-rail-line
Now, it may be possible that this is due to the level of resources thrown at the two repair tasks. But, I suspect it's due more to the higher level of engineering required for a railbed, than for a road.
The remainder of the rail network (through to the Napier port) has been repaired in the 'ugly fast opening' style – but, my understanding is that there was no road closure to the port – in comparison.
Rail may well be a significant and useful heavy transit option – but it is not resilient in extreme weather events.
resliency comes from having multiple systems that intersect. Hence don't put all your eggs in one basket (road or rail). I didn't argue that rail is better than road. I'm saying that we need rail for climate mitigation, and we should also design it with adaptation in mind.
It's pretty clear that the response to Gabrielle is primarily short term focused. Nothing wrong with that except where that's all there is. Changing how we move people and goods is an imperative and we're not even having that conversation yet. Most people want a green BAU replacement for mitigation, and seem to be trying to find a position for resilient BAU and haven't yet realised that this is largely just not possible.
The more we can relocalise food supply, jobs, education, and healthcare, the easier it will be to adapt to unforseen events. Fortunately for us, that relocalisation also acts as mitigation.
Well….the problem as I see it, is not about Rail per se, but who, is running Rail !
Get Rail back to NZ Rail. Employ the right people. Electrify it.
I dont know if you have ever looked at the previous comments on here about this ? Over a long period I have put many links. On Transport Efficiency ? Rail wins hands down. Damage to roads ? Trucks cause the most by a major factor. Hydrogen as a fuel? Its still in VERY early stages. Rail is now.
FYI..in my opinion light trucks still definitely for delivery. Anyway, I will link a couple…one from a Professor (who absolutely knows what she is talking about )
The other is a PDF ,not a big one but has all the comparison efficiency figures Rail, Coastal ship, and trucks…albeit doesnt incl hydrogen. As I say…its very early and there are many maybes about Storage (incl on truck…VERY difficult , requires an extremely gas tight tank !)
Evidently we have been subsidizing road freight for the past 30-40 years to the detriment of the Rail Network. Also sold off NZ Rail for a pittance under the 1984 Labour Government to the Merchant Banking Fraternity and Wiscounsin Rail who just asset stripped it to the point the NZ Government had to buy it back to try and save it ???
Yep. That Labour..(in name only, who went on to form act)
Correct aka Roger Douglas, Richard Prebble & Michael Bassett.
And (with others) personally responsible for a massive wealth gain for a VERY small number of associated scumbags…and literally generations of suffering for a large number of NZers.
Which we are still paying for.
One of the rewards for Prebble is that he still gets to write newspaper columns saying how shit everyone else is at running the country with the suggestion that he has the answers.
Ditto for Steven Joyce, Paula Bennett & Shane Jones.
Regional rail was in rapid and irreversible decline well before Richard Prebble got hold of it. It had been declining since the 1920s even when some branch lines were still being built.
Was the Think Big of those days.
That was the time in our country's history when we needed grand central-driven connection projects.
Well AD,at 1212. Have you a reference to support that statement
National flogged it in 1993.
/
I attended the Cabinet Economic Committee Meeting when the electrification of the Main Trunk Line was agreed and approved, it was announced to the media immediately after the meeting by Lance Adam-Schneider, then Minister of Railways. Part of the "Think Big" programme under Muldoon.
Present at the creation!
What was it like working with Bill Birch? In that era he was like the godchild of Sutch, just wrong side of the tracks. So to speak.
I was serving on the Naval Staff at that time in a number of roles, one of which was manpower planning. Defence had just moved from fixed term engagements to Open ended engagements – 3 months notice. The effect on some specialisations was horrific – particularly electric engineering and control engineering as essentially Navy at that time was one of the only organisations in the country with knowledge in this area and our people were in high demand for places like Glenbrook and the oil plants in Taranaki etc. They were leaving in droves and at one point the Admiral had to don no1's (sword and medals) and go up to Parliament and say – any more loss and we tie up another frigate! We were seen as the training establishment and I remember a meeting we had with Bill Birch at the time when these factors were discussed.
My attendance at the CECM above was in relation to the funding for the then new Resource Protection Vessel ( To be HMNZS Endeavour) which was also under consideration, as was the price of wheat. It was not wrong to say that at that time the country was run from the PM's desk.
We didn't have a democratically elected government. We had a malevolent dictator who was known to direct his lackeys to act unlawfully on his behalf.
I was being diplomatic 😉
Diplomacy is not by strong point. 🙁
Aha. So..you say. And your point?
Rail is needed when you need to move bulky, heavy, cheap goods around.
So if your economy declines in its need for that kind of transport, you need rail less and less.
Some of the big components for the Motonui, Maui and Kapuni gas and petroleum stations came through by rail in the 1970s and 1980s.
But then they stopped.
When the Patea freezing works closed in 1992 and Waitara freezing works closed in 1997, rail use declined further.
Mostly the left are stuck with nostalgia over rail because it used to employ tens of thousands of working class guys particularly Maori.
With domestic coal use dying by policy direction, soon there will be very little use for the rail line to Westport, or the Nightcaps-Ohai line to Invercargill. Rail north of Whangarei is almost unused.
Let it go.
I'd venture that the Otago Rail Trail makes more money in cycling and tourism than the actual rail ever did.
Rip up the regional tracks, shift away from bulk cheap exports, and do something smarter.
Fuck..just bullshit. Read my links. Or not
You just tried to compare Taranaki's rail line with something in Australia.
You need to keep up with reality.
Kiwirial have already invested in hybrid trains, but they did so for the 'golden triangle" of Auckland-Tauranga-Hamilton and the main trunk line which has the demand for it.
https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2023/05/11/its-time-to-shine-a-light-on-golden-triangle-rail/
The rest is just sickly left nostalgia.
Huh? And..IMO you change your opinion from day..to day.
(on this and others)
For reasons known only to you.
Anyway…I'll try not to engage with you again….
When the facts change, you ought to change.
"Kiwirial have already invested in hybrid trains, but they did so for the 'golden triangle" of Auckland-Tauranga-Hamilton…"
Try reading the article before you link.
A month ago the govt announced it will provide future funding to enable hybrid trains for the lower North Island, (Wairarapa & Manawatu).
Nothing to do with Auckland-Tauranga-Hamilton, and nothing to do with Kiwirail. They merely own the tracks, the trains will be part of the Regional Council owned commuter service.
Well, there you go. Onya.
https://www.gw.govt.nz/your-region/news/funding-for-new-passenger-trains-celebrated-by-greater-wellington-and-horizons/
https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/hybrid-rail-for-lower-north-island/
Hopefully they are going to sort out the rail from North Port to Auckland and we will get a fully functional rail and freight service running from Whangarei Port to Auckland.
There is no rail line to NorthPort.
There's no capital available for the Whangarei-NorthPort line, which is what would start to make rail Auckland to Northland viable.
They've done the Designation but it's more than a decade away in reality.
it's not nostalgia, it's climate consciousness. I would say any comment about rail that doesn't put it in the context of climate is nostalgia for a time when we could pretend that the economy was the most important thing and the environment was something over there for the greenies to worry about.
When did rail ever do anything for climate change?
Has any civil defence plan ever relied on rail? Nope.
Is even commuter rail performing in Wellington or Auckland? Nope.
Regional rail is the dumb economy. And regional rail is the dumb society.
maybe go do some reading on why climate actioners support rail, and how that might look in NZ?
this is so inane, I'm not even explaining it.
What happens when a civil emergency takes out the roads?
Why not?
Neoliberalism for the win!
Weka you need facts not mere emotions.
Last time we had a civil emergency was … Gabrielle about 8 weeks ago. And rail didn't come to our rescue. The armed forces did, together with FENZ, Police, Treasury, local civil defence, and other agencies.
Commuter rail in Auckland may well recover in a few years. Urban rail is still possible to support with more investment then. But it's nearly bankrupted Auckland Council.
Ask yourself what are the industries regional rail supports. Name them. Name the kinds of workers and towns you'd need for that. Name their average wage. Their educational attainment. It looks remarkably like New Zealand of the 1930s.
Maybe we're talking at cross purposes. There is huge value in rail in mitigating climate change. It's not intended to rescue people in a civil emergency. Resiliency comes from building systems that don't rely heavily on single parts. Hence my response to the OP that placing our reliance on hydrogen vehicles on roads would not be resilient. Resiliency systems create long term stability for communities and thus society at large.
What you appear to be arguing is that economics should be the driver of whether we value rail or not, and with no reference to climate. Neither of those positions will create resiliency in a climate change world. This doesn't mean ignoring economics, it means using whole system design rather than assuming shoring up BAU is a sensible response.
What part of climate change will regional rail solve?
What do you believe regional rail actually does?
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/10-05-2023/regional-rail-what-is-what-was-and-what-could-be
https://www.greens.org.nz/transport_inquiry_chance_to_get_regional_rail_back_on_track
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-10-2022/ten-popular-myths-about-passenger-rail-in-new-zealand
https://theconversation.com/why-restoring-long-distance-passenger-rail-makes-sense-in-new-zealand-for-people-and-the-climate-199381
and so on.
I believe after Bola & a couple of other times, but I'll to unpack a couple of boxes without the wife looking/ or knowing to confirm this.
Are they the ones who have already told her you have got rid of? if so I can understand your caution.
Ad, tell that to the Aussies who live in suburbs or satellite towns who Drive-Park then Ride on a train to their work.
It's the bulk product s that are leaving the new Plymouth line due to it being cheaper to truck it,
So we either have to subsidize rail ,more, or charge higher rd users on trucks! Both will have knock effects upstream and down.
We don't have to do either.
We have let most of our regional rail die including the Catlins Line, Otago inland line, Canterbury inland lines, the Blackball line, the Greymouth line, the Nelson line, the Dargaville line, the Otira line, the Paeroa line, the Waihi line, the Thames line, the Rotorua line, and dozens more …
… and guess what we are more efficient, more responsive, stronger and more adaptable as a country than we have ever been.
Go right ahead and invest more to Tauranga, Auckland and Hamilton where the freight and most of the passengers are and will be.
Stop wasting time and taxpayer money on regional rail.
What about in 30 years and nzs approaching 15 million people, the region s will soak alot ofvthat up, .
Surely it's cheaper to maintain then now for future need than to let them go to ruin,
For the main trunk line and the golden triangle I'd agree.
So what's it like inside the Green Party at the moment?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/left-wing-green-party-members-lose-leader-nicole-geluk-le-gros/6HIOHIPL2VETHFR5THNQWCMOQ4/
Maybe it's time to stop claiming there's nothing wrong as Incognito did two weeks ago.
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/06/04/standard-attack-dr-edwards-for-green-conspiracy-as-greens-quietly-purge-ultra-woke-conspirators/
Outside the non-reality of the RoyMorgan poll, this is what a competitive non-mainstream party looks like, and it ain't the Green Party:
https://www.act.org.nz/a_time_for_truth_offers_real_change
ACT are a worry, though much of their vote is Luxon generated.
The Greens are concentrating on Climate Change, the Environment and Inequality at this election now the gender/woke obsessed fanatics* have been put in their place.
These three issues will attract many votes, especially given Labour's shift to the centre under Hipkins.
I'm predicting Greens 11% this election.
*gender should be a cross-party issue
I think the Greens are handling this relatively well. The shift towards environmental, climate and inequality issue and the quiet downplaying of the excesses of identity politics seems on point for the election campaign. I don't know how that is happening (thinking about Davidson's public facing work while KJK was here suggests she's still pretty out there), but am glad it is.
Agreed Weka.
I can see TMP getting at least 3% because its leaders seem adept at keeping a high profile.
Coughlan appears to be saying that the Green Left Network removed Geluk-Le Gros because she supports an identity politics position that is too far even for the Greens and that it was causing problems for the party. Seems a good thing to replace her in that case, especially if the concern is what she would be doing in election year.
I can't see the problem, it's not like NZ voters are going to be following that level of detail, and it's hardly clickbait that the MSM can run with. It seems like normal level repositioning that goes on in all political parties.
"Lived experience"? – as in "my lived experience – which is what I say and most of which I make up, outweighs your biological reality every time"?
Yet another reason to avoid the Green Party!
I'm not sure Coughlan represents the constitutional change accurately (am still trying to get my head around it), but here ist he list of initial Lived Experience Networks.
https://elections.nz/assets/party-files/Constitution-of-the-Green-Party-of-Aotearoa-New-Zealand-June-2022.pdf
There is provision to add more.
I'm not sure the LENs are inherently a problem, or if it's simply that GP culture now blocks sexed based rights discussion. I take the position that it's better to try and reclaim the GP rather than reject them out of hand (same with the rest of the left)
First Armenian leader to attend the inauguration of a Turkish leader.
@revishvilig
Preisdent of Azerbaijan Aliyev and Prime Minister of Armenia Pashinyan at the inauguration of the Turkish President Erdogan. Substantial changes taking place in the South Caucasus
https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1665091282404777990
Erdogan is leader of the AKP (Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi).
@asliaydintasbas
This has warmed my heart. A group of Turkish journalists, from pro-AKP nationalists background, encouraging Armenian leader Pashinyan’s peace initiatives. “Do not think of yourself alone”
https://twitter.com/asliaydintasbas/status/1665070815056998403
Erdogan's newly appointed Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan.
He was involved in secret peace talks with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) for which in 2012 a state prosecutor wanted to investigate him.[13] Recep Tayyip Erdoğan intervened on behalf of Fidan[13] and he was later delegated to hold talks with Abdullah Öcalan and arranged the secret black marketing of Iran through Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakan_Fidan
Lotsa shenanigans in the Russian border region. A town of 40,000 is being bombed by separatists, people have been evacuated and there are reports of widespread looting by locals and Russian forces. And it was supposed to be a wee imperialist venture where only Ukrainians would die, only Ukrainian children would be terrorised, and only Ukrainians would have their homes and communities destroyed.
Shame, really.
/
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230603-frightening-thousands-of-russians-flee-shelling-to-belgorod
According to an article the Weekend Herald the attack was carried out by Russian dissidents.
And some reports say Russian armed forces evacuated Shebekino prior to their own attempt to level the city. Other reports say Russian
separatistsdissidents are planning a referendum on the future of Belgorod.But hey, Russian infighting has legs so well played, Ukraine.
lol
Russian dissidents
A bit like calling the mosque murderer (who told his mother he'd like to move permanently to Ukraine) an Australian dissident
https://www.9news.com.au/world/brenton-tarrant-how-christchurch-terrorist-spent-final-months-before-attack/ca366435-03c8-4981-b382-051abec79f56
Kyiv backed Belgorod separatists, then. But surely Russia could just give up Belgorod. For peace.
I've a feeling that demilitarizing a sizable border zone will be Ukraine's only way to conclude the war – at least while Putin avoids defenestration.
ACT wants the Education portfolio.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/132220276/act-is-on-the-brink-of-holding-some-power-what-does-that-mean
”What does it want?
It’s testament to ACT’s confidence that Seymour sees one of his caucus as education minister. This is potentially a fish hook for Luxon who also sees the portfolio as a priority.
ACT wants enormous reform – and that goes far beyond the return and expansion of charter schools (which Luxon has already committed to).
School funding would depend on digital quarterly reporting, especially of attendance (importantly, income wouldn’t be dependent on the results, but the frequency of reporting.)
This does seem rather bureaucratic for an anti-bureaucracy party – but underlines the importance they attach to chronic truancy.”
Wow, interesting times head. And not in a good way.
It’s about time the media started investigating ACT policy.
Previously Act's big education thing (bedsides charter schools) was 'voucher' education.
I haven't seen any mention about that or that their other great driver, parental choice, will mean school zoning is done away with.
Principle seems to go down the tubes with Seymour when electoral reality kicks in. You want parental choice? Yes. If that affects the values of your constituents' houses? No.
What could have been.
4/6/1989
https://www.act.org.nz/time-for-truth
The tax is 17.5 cents to $70,000 and 28 cents over that level.
More spending, and huge reductions in tax revenue. It would result in an immediate downgrade in our credit rating.
Of course the policy is not serious, because they are not proposing it as policy to be applied by any government. One wonders it they will even have it costed by any reputable body.