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Open Mike 04/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:04 am, November 4th, 2018 - 178 comments
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178 comments on “Open Mike 04/11/2018 ”

  1. Jenny 1

    What’s this all about?

    Those who should know, are claiming that they don’t know.

    What’s gone wrong with New Zealand’s electricity market?
    Susan Edmunds – Stuff.co.nz, November 3, 2018

    • Jenny 1.1

      That has left generators competing for smaller amounts of fuel with which to create electricity.


      Some retailers allege there is something more sinister going on…….

      ……Stephen Poletti, senior economics lecturer at University of Auckland, conducted a study of the market over seven years and found the gentailers were consistently exercising market power. He said he would not be surprised if they were gaming the system.

      “In a current situation where there’s a squeeze on gas and lakes are bit a lower, these are the perfect conditions for them to exercise market power. I would expect it.”


      But Marc England, chief executive at gentailer Genesis Energy, said while there was “something unusual” going on, there was no gaming of the system. “There’s no big versus small plot here.”

      He said, while it was not uncommon for lakes to dry out, it was a problem when combined with the gas outages. “It creates a very stressed wholesale market. We will get through but it will require careful management of fuel resources.”…..

      ……”That’s all happening behind the scenes and is an example of the market working in a fuel-challenged environment.” [my emphasis J.]

      Big industrial users of gas such as Methanex had been encouraged to use less, so that more could go into electricity generation, he said. The spot price of gas was reaching heights of more than five times the norm.

      Coal was used as a back-up to water and gas….

      …….Genesis would normally have a stockpile of 250,000 to 300,000 tonnes or enough to get through a three-month drought.

      It is about to start bringing in coal from Indonesia but England said that was contentious, expensive and had supply chain risks.

      “We have to pay to import millions of dollars’ worth of coal and if there is a big storm and the lakes fill up no one will want it for generation.

      Like others quoted in this article, I smell a rat.

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised if all this is blamed on the Government and particular the Greens.

      All through this report are hints and comments about the shortage of fossil fuels, as being the reason behind the price gouging and threats of outages.

      These hints and veiled threats, perfectly match the squealing of the fossil fuel lobby over the government’s ban on new off shore oil and gas exploration permits, and government’s refusal to rubber stamp Te Kuha Coal Mine expansion into conservation land.

      Genesis Chief Executive, Marc England talks of “….careful management of fuel resources” and a “….fuel challenged environment” “….all happening behind the scenes.”.

      England says that he may have to import $millions worth of coal from Indonesia (though admitting it may never need to be used.)

      In my humble opinion to secure our supply the government needs to bypass the threats and blackmail of the fossil fuel sector and invest in the renewable sector.

      • bwaghorn 1.1.1

        Accidentally or otherwise this might be proving nz isn’t ready to go coal and gas free . Of course importing it can make us look good as we can claim e don’t mine .

        • Jenny

          bwaghorn 1.1.1
          4 November 2018 at 8:35 am
          Accidentally or otherwise this might be proving nz isn’t ready to go coal and gas free,,,,,,

          I would beg to differ.

          There are alternatives, and it would only take a few legislative changes to make them viable.

          Windfarm backtrack costs hundreds of jobs
          Jenna Lynch and Chris Gardner – Waikato Times, August 21, 2018

          A move by Contact Energy to back out of a windfarm on the Waikato’s west coast has blown away hundreds of potential jobs in a move described as another disappointment to a region buffeted by lay-offs….

          ….Waikato Chamber of Commerce CEO Sandra Perry said the news was just another disappointment for the region, especially for those in the energy sector following last week’s Huntly Coal Mine lay-offs.

          After the announcement that 93 jobs were to go at the Huntly Mine, Ms Perry was hopeful that some of the younger employees facing redundancy could retrain and head into new jobs – like the construction and maintenance of the windfarm.

          “Here was an opportunity for them to retrain in the skills needed for constructing the windfarm and that’s gone now, so it’s another disappointment for the region,” she said…..

          ……New Zealand Wind Energy Association chief executive Eric Pyle was also disappointed with the decision as it was a step backward in the plan for a focus on renewable energy in New Zealand.

          “Wind generation is charging ahead globally – 2012 was the biggest year yet for wind installations, with five times New Zealand’s entire electricity capacity commissioned,” he said….

          ….Eric Pyle hoped there might be a future for the Waikato project as a smaller proposition.

          “The project is fully consented and with the right policy settings it could be built in stages over time.”

          Get that, The “right policy settings” could see this huge project go ahead cutting down on this country’s reliance on gas and coal and creating “an estimated 1033 jobs once operational and generate enough power for around 170,000 homes….”

          The availability of cheap coal for generating electricity at Huntly had undercut the windfarm, Government policy settings that placed the currently externalised costs of fossil fuel pollution firmly back with the polluters would make this wind farm viable.

      • Dukeofurl 1.1.2

        You could say that the current situation regarding gas supply is unsustainable anyway.
        The answer to that is build a LNG import terminal so we can obtain cheaper gas from world markets – like Queensland.

        After all drilling offshore is like investing in bitcoin, but the odds of losing all your money far greater

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3

        The ‘electricity market’ in NZ is completely artificial as it is a natural monopoly and thus should be state owned and operated and not return a profit. It will therefore be a government service which everyone has a right to.

        Have it so that each household gets a free amount each month determined by number of occupants. Anything used above that is charged for at $1/KwH or more. This gives a floor preventing energy poverty and discourages excessive use.

        The present system increases costs and shifts the power to the new owners thus causing harm to the country.

        • gsays

          Thanks Draco and tc below.

          It’s like the answer has sirens, streamers, flashing lights and in a tinsel explosion.
          Take the assets back.

          The only reason for not doing it would involve words like monopoly, inefficiencies, markets… All of them are fictions.
          That does not trump affordable energy for the citizenry.

          It also gets profit out of the way when dealing with our nuclear issue.

          C’mon Labour, you did it with rail now power.
          Let’s do this.

    • Dukeofurl 1.2

      Have to remember the ‘spot’ market is only part of the way electricity is paid for by the wholesalers.
      The Good side , well the only advantage, is the door to door marketing to change your power company retailer seems to have disappeared this month !

    • tc 1.3

      Privatisation is what’s wrong with it. Pure and simple. We had a working system under NZED looking after ALL of NZ.

      It’s gouging the users, lining private pockets and failing to provide the resilience and investment required to future proof if.

      It’ll come with its hand out again for that when under NZED it was included in the regular bill.

  2. WeTheBleeple 2

    Hope y’all are having as much fun spring planting as I am. I go to the supermarket and just get robbed. I go to the garden and get taken care of.

    This is for organic gardeners and greenies:

    Use of beneficial plants/insects can be rather hit and miss (patience, the predators must build up), Dr Eric Brennan’s exemplary work in this field cannot be understated. Here he demonstrates the evolution of an inter-planting system with 0% loss in yields.

    Farmers take note, the multi-species hedgerows are a crucial design element.

    Be sure to check out his other material on youtube to learn more on ecological gardening and some real insights into cover cropping.

    • Dukeofurl 2.1

      Hedgerows ? Who has hedgerows in NZ farms unless they farmed liked they do in England ?

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1

        You need to get out more Dukeofurl. Away with you laddie….take the day off from here and go expand your horizons.

        We’ll try to cope.

      • WeTheBleeple 2.1.2

        Hedgerow, shelter belt, same principle.

        Shelter can increase production significantly in and of itself via reducing evaporation and lessening wind chill. Farmers should be all over it. That’s before the parasitoids and predators, habitat, nitrogen fixation, peak dry season fodder etc etc.

        I’m designing multi-functional shelter belts including NZ species for NZ conditions now.

        No old english folks BS required.

        • Dukeofurl

          Why didnt you call them multi functional shelter belts to start with.

          While hedgrows in England were used in Roman times, the Inclosures Act in the 18th century meant they really took off.

          • WeTheBleeple

            Maybe because I invented the term. Butt out you’re boring me.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Why didnt you call them multi functional shelter belts to start with.

            How about you learn English?


            A hedge or hedgerow is a line of closely spaced shrubs and sometimes trees, planted and trained to form a barrier or to mark the boundary of an area, such as between neighbouring properties. Hedges used to separate a road from adjoining fields or one field from another, and of sufficient age to incorporate larger trees, are known as hedgerows. Often they serve as windbreaks to improve conditions for the adjacent crops, as in bocage country.

            My bold.

      • Ad 2.1.3


        • WeTheBleeple

          That was informative…

          Hedgerows still widespread in Southland? It’d make perfect sense with the cold.

          Must take another trip down those ways. Last time was too busy working.

          • Ad

            Mossburn to Riverton especially.

            Talk to Guyton while you’re there.

            • Robert Guyton

              I missed this discussion from yesterday but would love to have talked hedgerows – I’ve planted many and plan to plant many more before my time’s up. There are simple hedgerows here in Southland – mainly hawthorn and or gorse, with some of the awful Leyland or macrocarpa “windbreaks”. Mine are multi-plant, with small trees of all sorts, native and exotic, as well as vines, perennial vegetables and flowers and biennials such as cow parsley etc, especially for the insects. I’d like to see hedgerows across the country.

              • WeTheBleeple

                Excellent Robert. I won’t preach to the choir then. I’m putting together a synopsis of our native microbial companions and nitrogen fixers, then I’ll be incorporating their hosts into shelter design.

                And I’ll get a bunch of science together to state a case for shelter belts being restored in dairy. Business requires data, fair enough.

                I’ll keep you posted when I get close to putting it all together, sounds like you’d be well worth having a cider with.

                Just made a huge mound of rotten wood, compost and sand, then put an avocado in it.

                Did I mention I LOVE spring 😀

                • Robert Guyton

                  Hi WTB
                  That sounds very interesting indeed. Hugelkulture too! I planted Guevina avellana yesterday and wondered about their microbial companions, having heard there’s a high loss rate at this point (seedlings into open ground). I’ve done all I can to promote such organisms here, but can’t know if the appropriate ones are here yet. I’m hoping there’s a generic organism that suits. Spring’s the buzz, that’s for sure! I’ve “dead man’s finger” seedlings popping up (first time) and horseradish from small root cuttings too – haven’t tried that before. Lots of Chilean wineberry from seed, hundreds of hosta (they’re edible, did you know?) and Angelica archangelica from seed, by the score. Lots and lots more, coz, Spring!!!

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    Didn’t know the Hosta’s were edible. Asparagales eh. Just put in my first asparagus bed this year.

                    Up here in AK had good success with Taro and even bananas last year so fingers crossed for more. The more tropical style plants really do like to be in a guild they seem out of sorts alone. Macadamia, banana, taro and coffee, bulbs. Great guild. I’m quietly suspicious the synergy is partly to do with microbial companions I’d brewed some pretty crazy hydrolysate with entomapathogenic fungi and Trichoderma, then added it to biochar with three types of compost, worm castings, soil, pond sludge, lacto bacillus… LOL! Why muck around.

                    Rhizobia for NZ Kowhai (8 species) and brooms (Carmichaelia, 23 endemic species) are different to the clover type rhizobium. They aren’t dispersed like the common ones too. Find closest relative plant hosts (or same species) in good health, get some dirt, get some roots with nodules and look for the purple-red in them. That’s the gold right there. Smear them up make a paste and put it on your seeds. Seed and dirt from the same host is perfect. Know when these nitrogen fixers drop seeds you’ll be sorted for free nitrogen in native shrubs, trees and ground covers. The native rhizobia will cover all native species, maybe not the alpine brooms, as I’ve not read that far yet…

                    Similarly for mycorrhizae. Find the closest relatives if you can’t find established plants of the same species. Get soil, hope for the best. Most mycorrhizae are relatively promiscuous but the specialists can be a PITA. Don’t get arrested trying to import Chilean soil 🙂

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Yes to most of that, WTP. I’ve practiced soil-relocation for a long time now and imagine it’s helping 🙂 I have, to my great surprise, relocated amanita to a mature birch here, all the while believing it wasn’t possible – seemingly some will, even at that late stage. My Carmichaelia do really well, despite being well out of zone, perhaps because I have plenty of kowhai in the garden. I do wonder about Manuka, some of which fail spontaneously through what seems like lack of partnering mychorrizae. Some of the off-shore, Deep South oleria/brachyglottis also seem short-lived and partnerless. Could be the extra-warm conditions here that bring them to an early end though, hard to now. I have plenty of Chileans walking around my garden in their Chilean-bought boots, so there’s no need for subterfuge 🙂 You’re oxygenating your mixes? For how long? Spraying the resulting brew onto the plant? Soil? injecting any of it subsoil? Cultivating it in, out of the sunshine?

                • I love posts like these WTB. and R G.. Uplifting and reminding us to tackle the smaller stuff to help “The big picture”.

        • Robert Guyton

          I saw boxthorn for the first time, last week when I was in the Wairarapa. Imagine the Canterbury Plains, criss-crossed by multi-species hedgerows, walking paths alongside of or between them, fruit, berries, nuts, birds, flowers, butterflies, cool shade…it could be done. And then spread across the island. Jones wants us to plant trees. Let’s do it right.

          • bwaghorn

            #$%@^% mongrel @#$% is box thorn

            • gsays

              I’m with you wags, I have an ‘unproductive’ patch of box thorn here in a little gully.
              Was moving the goat, he zagged instead of zigged and I ended up falling head first into this growth.

              Several thorns were removed.

            • joe90

              Way back in the PEP (Project Employment Programmes) days I cut a shed load of the bastard stuff. A year or so later my SO had a squeeze of a wee lump on my forehead hairline, and out comes a 30mm thorn.

        • Pingao

          Boxthorn, as mentioned in the link, is a pest plant species. Environment Canterbury put out an excellent booklet for native plant hedges a few years ago.

          • WeTheBleeple


            There’s that booklet on native shelter belts. It has some good info. I especially like the ‘start small’ advice. Learn as you go before you break the bank.

            Mulching heavily can make most problems go away but it is not practical to scale up considerably.

            I would recommend combining information from the pamphlet and what has been said here by myself and Robert.

            Mix and match things for your farms needs.

            Nitrogen fixers – imo a staple. Who wants to be babysitting trees, when they could be planting more trees. Nitrogen fixers help feed your trees.

            Natives – for conservation, bird and insect food and habitat, for their ability to grow without pampering and create support/shade/shelter for more expensive plants, for medicinal plant sources.

            Animal fodder – supplementary or emergency stock food.

            Tall, medium, short species: Tall to the south, short to the north, stack em up and get more functions/products.

            Legacy timber – plant some trees worth good money as wood for the future. A great idea when you have young-un’s. Dot them through shelter belts so they can be selectively logged without destroying the shelter.

            Fruit, nuts, berries. Products, food, preserves.

            Bulbs and flowers and bushes and trees for bees and other beneficial insects.

            Robert mentioned walkways… nice. Be some tourism potential around these types of planted walkways as well. Educational and beautiful.

            There’s an awful lot more potential than the silly poplar/pine combos we see in the north, and the cursed boxthorn…

            • Robert Guyton

              Coppice-able trees interest me the most atm. There are a multitude of them, from sweet chestnut to fodder willows. Have you thought seriously about sycamore? Coppiced/managed, charcoaled, harvested for fuel when the diameter of a PET bottle, “bled’ for sugar/syrup/wine making, other uses…

              • Pingao

                Hi Robert … unfortunately sycamore is a big problem as an environmental weed here in Canterbury and also in other parts of the South Island. It is in the Canterbury Regional Pest Management Stategy as well as the Southland RPMS and named as a pest tree in Tasman Nelson region.

  3. James 3


    On point in the NZ hearld this morning.

    Of course I’m guessing Cindy won’t fire him – after all she backed him to the hilt.

    Reading beteeen the lines I’m guessing neither of them actually read the files.

    • Cinny 3.1

      Any reasonable person would wait and see how the investigation turns out.

      Any reasonable person….. except heather by the sounds of it.

      • James 3.1.1

        That would be a new behaviour on there. If it’s anyone from the right many are happy to pile in well before any investigation is completed.

        Curious huh?

        • Cinny

          Goes both ways James.

          Is it a competition?

          • James

            No –

            But what’s good for the goose etc.

            So here is a question – do you think he should be fired if his decision is changed ?

            • Ankerrawshark

              No I don’t think he should be fired if Decision is changed.

              I am more interested in finding out what went wrong. I expect mistakes do happen. My hunch is he wasn’t given all the information and we need to know why that was. If he didn’t read the information fully, then that leaves ???……..we just don’t know

              Why would we fire someone at this stage? If wouldn’t happen in a fair workplace.

            • Cinny

              No, as a wise person should be humble enough to change their decision when more information is presented to them.

              But after nine years of the contrary it’s understandable why some may be reacting they way they are.

              To me it looks like another broken system that needs repairing.

        • McFlock

          That just goes to how blatantly incompetent tory ministers can be.

          ISTR Ardern did fire a minister before the investigation had been formally completed but when the misconduct that had been identified was serious enough to warrant it.

          If the decision needs to be changed, I suspect the main question would be whether ILG failed to read the file properly, or whether the file had glaring errors.

    • ScottGN 3.2

      As both Audrey Young and Tracy Watkins pointed out this weekend James, the Sroubek case is just part of the daily travails of government for the PM to manage and both went on to say that, however challenging those travails are, its a million times better than being stuck on the sidelines in Opposition.
      Incidentally both journalists also said that National’s internal polling was going downhill in the wake of the JLR fiasco and that support for Bridges was near terminal. Like it or not it looks like more and more NZers are lining up behind Ardern. Augurs well for 2020.

      • James 3.2.1

        It might be part of the daily travails but they Stuff did stuff it up.

        And it looks bad.

        Yep I can believe polling is down. Hell I’ve even paused my monthly contribution to national and won’t start paying again until bridges is gone – so no argument from me on that one.

        Still waaaaaay to far out to state the impact this will have on 2020.

        Ps – don’t worry – I left the $$ in an account and will ‘catch up’ when we have a new leader. I’m cheering for Collins.

        • ScottGN

          Yes it does look like a stuff up at best and Ardern is entitled to feel somewhat aggrieved at having to wade in to rescue her minister. However it also looks like a planned hit job from an Opposition desperate to change the narrative after a disastrous couple of weeks of pretty spectacular internal fighting. As for 2020, it’s interesting that some in the Press Gallery are already saying that former National cabinet ministers have privately conceded that election.

        • Keving

          You will be cheering till you are hoarse then. Believe it or not, the National caucus isn’t that stupid…. or maybe they are?

    • Herodotus 3.3

      If nothing else results from this ILG WILL be better for this.
      And it is a learning experience for all, and I hope as a result we get better decision making.

      • ScottGN 3.3.1

        Given that no cabinet minister ever wants the immigration portfolio ILG is probably hoping to get shuffled out of it when Ardern inevitably refreshes her ministry sometime next year?

    • AB 3.4

      The barrel is very empty when some manufactured laura norder beat-up causes a frenzy for over a week. I can hear the fingernails scraping on the wood.

      • ScottGN 3.4.1

        It’s funny AB. National has obviously thought they have a surefired winner on their hands with the Sroubek case, and yet, they still managed to look utterly dejected all of last week. Points to a party heading into a period of considerable disarray I reckon.

      • Re Sroubek,Yes and at worst they will find penny pinching has meant the records don’t contain the necessary information (Ports of call after the first for instance).
        Indicates tweaks to the system rather than the people involved.

    • Anne 3.5

      Reading beteeen the lines I’m guessing neither of them actually read the files.

      Reading between the lines someone from Immigration NZ failed, for whatever reason, to give Lees Galloway all the files. Hence the investigation.

      • Cinny 3.5.1

        Nailed it Anne.

      • Graeme 3.5.2

        And reading the conditions ILG put on the residency he appeared to be concerned by the whole affair and had a bob each way.

        My reading of it was that he’ll be gone as soon as he can’t provide valid current travel documents in his real name within the prescribed period. Chucking him out forthwith would have set a precedent making it really difficult for most genuine refugees.

        The minister had an intimate knowledge of the documents presented to him to have written the letter he did.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.6

      Duplicity-Allan is a reliable National cheer leader, and not much else.

      Ardern has indicated she is not confident in the decision, which is hardly ‘backing him to the hilt’


    • SaveNZ 3.7

      The Druglord should be deported ASAP although I’m not sure Ian should go with him. The blame should be centred around the reports put in front of the minister whether they were full of lies, omissions and untruths and that is where the investigation should focus on. Was all the relevant information in the report aka he went back to EU, his wife has a restraining order, he is in prison for nearly 6 years…. seriously surely a normal person would work out he does not deserve to be in NZ and it is certainly not in the public’s interest or safety for him to be here.

  4. WeTheBleeple 4

    Should we farm Weka and Kereru?

    This is a controversial topic. Eugenie Sage has a good point that numbers are not high enough to have these species on the menu. But farms would be professional breeding operations, and rules could be set something like every third chick is released till numbers are acceptable. And breeding stock are interchanged. Ecologically sound, and meanwhile, business models can progress.

    Diversity is a huge part of sustainability. We see manuka coming into markets with honey, and soon to be medicines. Many other indigenous plants are being assayed as I type. Having original products for the worlds markets and the added bonus of unique tourism could be extremely lucrative; and an active part of conservation.

    Likewise whitebait. Farming them produces HUGE numbers. At the late Charles Mitchell’s farm you could practically walk on the fish waiting in the estuary to come into his ponds. They fatten up in the ocean and swim ‘home’. Why are we not farming them? Ridiculousness disguised as government is my best guess, and what Charles kept telling me…


    • bwaghorn 4.1

      We aren’t even allowed to farm the water weasel trout so good luck getting common sense on this one .

      • WeTheBleeple 4.1.1

        Yeah legislation is tough. But legislation is also ridiculous in many cases. I was clearing riparian plants back in the day, the consensus was the plants made rivers dirty. Whole busloads of workers in work schemes doing it all over the country. Clear-felling riparian zones, go the legislators!

        A bunch of dairy and pines and all the problems with these mono-cultures, or diversity and resilience in the agricultural sector…

        Remember we were also killing the Kea, a ‘pest’, for sheep farmers.

        A history of blatant stupidity is no excuse for more of the same.

        Without a clue, politicians are muppets at the hand of farm lobbyists. I sincerely hope this historical stupidity has been identified as exactly that.

        More committees with professional science and business advisers please. We are sitting on a goldmine both ecologically and economically.

        Tourism, food, medicine, building materials, textiles…

        Even our clothes are shitty plastic. Change required in thinking and practice.

        • Draco T Bastard

          A history of blatant stupidity is no excuse for more of the same.

          But that is what we get. It’s why the spam in the mailbox is still allowed despite it being worse for us than the spam in the email. Millions of kilograms of waste every year plus all the wasted effort to deal with it for no benefit and all because its ‘traditional’.

        • True “Our clothes are shitty plastic” WTB. Try buying cotton.. 100% cotton.
          Underwear PJs towels tea towels sheets and fabrics for drapes, So hard to source. Real Silk and wool also difficult to find, and so dear by comparison.
          Sadly the cause of explosive fires are our “fabrics” made of oil.

          • Dukeofurl

            So dear by comparison …..?
            The reason for that is polymers are ‘made’ ( from coal, water, air , petroleum) while the others are ‘grown’

    • Ad 4.2

      NZ Rugby League line from 1990s:

      “Give em a taste of Kiwi”

    • Jenny 4.3

      Maybe we could farm Kiwi for their giant eggs [sarc]

      Genetically engineer a cross with the domestic chicken and we could get a giant egg every other day.

      A little bit of crispr maybe?

      And Kiwi feather cloaks could become de rigueur day wear.

      Try and get that past the Greens.

      ACT would be in favour, especially served up in disposable plastic bags. Too bad they are not in government, and unlikely to be ever again.

    • Farm cats and dogs for the flesh eaters and for fur. Get that sorted and then you can start on our birds imo

    • Graeme 4.5

      Culinary Weka would be a goer IF it could be done in a way that enhanced wild populations. Probably start with a captive breading program and once that’s running well look to very controlled sale.

      But farming the thing the things would be a challenge. They aren’t cute, passive and slightly stupid like a chook, Weka are highly intelligent, independent animals with a vindictive streak that take delight in pissing you off. Trying to manage a couple of hundred of them would be, interesting.

      Weka are very tasty birds, I’ve consumed one confirmed and one probable, the confirmed was a bird that became a total pia around the house and resisted all attempts at re-education and transportation so ended up as Sunday roast, and the other was a rotisserie “chook” that looked the part in the shop but wasn’t quite the right shape once consumed. Both much better than your 70’s supermarket or butcher chook.

      With whitebait the disconnect between the extractive mindset of the fishers and habitat conservation to ensure the survival of the species is galling. Unfortunately I fear that bait may be going the way of too many of our great native species the could have been much better than what replaced them.

      Kua ngaro i te ngaro o te moa
      Lost as the moa was lost

    • Robert Guyton 4.6

      Giant kokopu “fatten up” in my freshwater spring.

    • Stuart Munro 4.7

      Whitebait is undergoing some research, but the standard NIWA conclusion is pretty much: Insufficient research has been done at this time.

      There was an Otago study that can be found here: https://nzaquaculture.co.nz/old-archives/AC49.pdf

      The capital cost of scaling up to an operation that will support its operators is probably the limiting factor.

      • Stuart Munro 4.7.1

        Mind, the article was 2012.

        Plenty of time to have rolled it out.

        Kind of begs the question – why aren’t there a bunch of modest whitebait startups out there? What’s the constraint: Regulatory? Environmental? Skills? Capital?

        Solve that, and there are probably quite a few entry-level aquaculture possibilities that could work.

        • WeTheBleeple

          The restraint is regulatory. I bred banded kokopu in a tank 1st ever to do it. Got ignored except by Charles. They’ve got no data because they ignore people on the front lines working with the fish. They do nothing except fund Mahurangi which from what I’ve seen is a training ground for industry with slightly less racism than NIWA. UoA was a far better choice for education.

          Mahurangi are keen on developing products, far more keen on products than preservation. Now they have learned to breed eels it’s all about international markets and patents and $$. They’ve got a course now for ‘superyacht crewing’ for 4 grand… serious institution, indeed…

          But all universities are being forced into ‘applied science’ which ensures we have no decent information unless it is a potential product. I’m saying all of these species and many more are potentially products, and through this financial incentive we might actually get action on a large scale.

          Highly regulated action – the caveat being the regulations are designed for the industry involved not some 18th century political hangover.

          Recreational fishers and commercial operators who act in self interests… regulate em. People who act entitled need a good slapping. People who work hard to help the country deserve an honest wage.

          The capital costs would be covered if a farmer could sell their stock. But no, the governments view is if I breed 10 000 000 fish I can sell none. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

          An estaurine river, some timber, a digger, seed. Additionally a solar panel, battery bank and air pump would be useful to stock higher. That’s what it takes to make a whitebait farm. Food requires plantings, industry wastes converted to insects, and some pellets for breeding time – to be sure.

          The banded’s leap up onto banks to catch insects! I knew they could jump (18 inches) but this is amazing. They also aestivate, which I think I’m the only observer of this to my knowledge. They lie with no water, in mud under rocks, waiting for water to return. They’re hard as nails if you keep them cool and aerated.

          Huge numbers can be easily achieved. But where’s the incentive – red tape, no thanks…

          For the weka fans – they can take stoats. This was observed outside of Featherston one got too close to a nesting weka and it ran it down then killed it outright taking it with it’s beak behind the front legs. That’s why they’re still alive despite being tasty imo. More hard as nails locals 😀

          I’ve also observed a stoat rolling an egg uphill 150 metres into the scrub line. Hard working pests.

    • Robert Guyton 4.8

      Should we farm?

      • Stuart Munro 4.8.1

        If it increases diversity, probably. Makes for a more robust ecosystem.

      • Grey Area 4.8.2

        Perhaps the better question Robert is should we eat other sentient beings? The answer for me is clearly no.

        And then there’s climate collapse and the changes we must make:


      • bwaghorn 4.8.3

        What’s the other option ?
        7 billion people subsisting on a few acres ?
        You can’t be serious!!

        • Robert Guyton

          “You can’t be serious”
          bwaghorn, you said “subsisting on a few acres” not anyone else, so you’ve aimed the charge, “you can’t be serious” at yourself, surely. Agriculture is harmful. It’s use needs to be reviewed.

        • Grey Area

          Did you read the article? To have any hope of feeding the planet humans have to stop wastefully raising animals to eat at the unsustainable rate we do.

    • Pingao 4.9

      Certainly not Kereru. Aside from the practicalities of farming them while allowing them a natural life, it would be impossible to control the taking of wild birds and you would be creating a demand where previously there was very little demand. Their numbers in the wild are too low to sustain any harvesting

      I suppose you could breed them to release them but still have 100% protection.

      For weka I am not so sure … They are protected except on the Chathams. There was a trial on Banks Peninsula to farm them – I’ll see if I can find the link.

  5. Lenore 5

    RNZ news about another anti-abortion group – this time women who have had abortions saying the govt needs to consider the emotional effects partly funded by family first! The PM wants this to be a health issue – damn right! As an older women who is so thankful I had a termination many years ago (and was treated like shit by the doctors and nurses at Nelson hospital) and that I find it interesting how people’s views change when they no longer are at risk of being in that situation or look back and want to inflict their regrets on other’s rights to choose. Such hypocrisy. We used to have to provide safe passage for women entering parkview clinic in Wellington in the 1980s as they were harassed by nutters and I will never forget how distressing that was for women. If we look at abortion as a health issue, not a criminal issue, there will be less of a toll emotionally on women, having to tell some story about the ‘danger to their life’ to a doctor because they don’t want the pregnancy. We also change the secrecy and stigma of it and enable women to be able to talk about it and get the emotional support they need.

    • James 5.1

      That was a great post.

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.2

      Hiya Lenore…could you put up a link please? I skim read a similar article but can’t seem to find it now….

      • Lenore 5.2.1

        I heard it on RNZ news this morning and will try and hunt down the link – they said there was an article in two national papers.

        • ScottGN

          No they said there were paid advertisements in 2 weekend papers. The item was a piece in the 9 am news bulletin so there probably isn’t anything online yet?

          • Lenore

            Thanks – a paid advert makes more sense as to why I couldn’t find a specific link to this although plenty back to Family First. I got so angry that it has made me realise, I need to do something and get active in this area again to be part of the solution to get the legislative changes women need in Aotearoa. The personal is political!!!!!

            • Rosemary McDonald

              Natrad is seriously bad for that. There will be an item on the news….no link on their webpage and no further reports. Often this is late at night or early in the morning and one is left wondering if you imagined it.

              Does my head in.

              I was running around, but my partner heard the piece. From his account it was more than a passing reference.

              And yes…the political is often personal. 😉

              • ScottGN

                National Radio can hardly be expected to provide an online link for every item that features in their hourly news bulletins.

        • veutoviper

          Here you are, Lenore, and others – the link to the RNZ 9.00am News this morning. The item is the first one up in the link but was not repeated in the 10.00am news and RNZ don’t seem to have any written article up on the website.


          • veutoviper

            UPDATE – RNZ just repeated the item as the first one on their 11.00am News. Word for word the same as the 9.00am item so no need to provide link which will not be up for a while yet.

    • Morrissey 5.3

      Family First wants them to be born so they can be hit with hairbrushes when they’re toddlers.

      • SaveNZ 5.3.1

        @Morrissey – good joke.

        • Morrissey

          Sadly, my friend, it’s not really a joke. Bob McCoskrie, the Obergruppenführer of Family Fist, is on record averring that it is reasonable and acceptable to hit a young child with a hairbrush.

          I think the technical word for bashing a child like that is “chastisement.”

    • bwaghorn 5.4

      Do you think there should be any place in the new legislation for the rights of the father? . There must be the odd case (probably few I admit) where the father would be willing to take sole custody at birth of the child and surely if that is the case he must have some rights .
      Because If we flip it round and the father didn’t want it but the mother had the baby he would still responsible in some way .
      It seems unfair that only the female has all the rights and the father has none.

      • Sabine 5.4.1

        How about first to teach men to not just willy nilly ejaculate into a vagina. How about teaching young men and old ones too that unless they are prepared to be a father they should ‘condom’ it up or maybe even have a vasectomy? Because women can have a lot of sex, have many many orgasms but the only thing that gets women pregnant is men ejaculating into a vagina. 🙂 So clearly the issue at hand is not women having sex, but men not taking responsibility for the deposition of their semen during their sexual intercourse (unless of course they are having sex with men, go and do as you wish with your semen 🙂 )

        So before we give men the right to decide women lot, – and keep in mind that abortion in NZ is literally a crime and in order to get it a women literally has to declare herself mentally not able too, or too poor, or of too poor a health to continue – we dont we teach men to take some personal responsibility and when they go about fucking like they are wont to do so that they ejaculate ‘not into a vagina’ so as to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

        Can you please explain to me why pregnancy is a womens responsability, especially unwanted ones, and why men don’t seem to be responsible for all the children they father?

        And can you then please put forward an idea what should be done to men – whose children were born out of wedlock – that do refuse to take part in any of the childbearing business cause they are not ‘ready for a child’, or they wanted the sex but not the child and or mother? Or hey i thought you took the pill, or any other excuse they could give for fathering a child but not wanting to be responsible for it.

        And would you be happy for a child to be dropped at the fathers doorstep if the women had the child, but does not want it, but could not end the pregnancy, and now is settled with a child she neither needs nor has the mental, financial and emotional stability to raise? After all the bloke ejaculated in her vagina, knowing this could lead to a pregnancy? Would you be ok for this to be legal and not be considered ‘c hild abandonment’?

        Or are you simply for a bit of ‘what about the blokes that get to fuck without consequences’ and how they are screwed over by the women whom these blokes fuck?

        Fact, teach your sons that fucking without protection leads to children. Fact, teach your sons that fucking without protection can lead to 25 odd years of child support. Fact, teach your sons that they are responsible for their fertility. Fact, teach your sons to not just willy nilly fuck and ejaculate (unless with men if they are same sex interested) and maybe not fuck at all if they are not ready to be a father.
        And frankly, unless the bloke is happy to have the newborn, stay at home and raise it, go to Winz to beg for a benefit as a stay at home parent, no they don’t get a say. They had their say when they fucked without protection and an ounce of personal responsibility.

        • Cinny

          This bit…

          “Can you please explain to me why pregnancy is a womens responsability, especially unwanted ones, and why men don’t seem to be responsible for all the children they father? ”

          Exactly !

          And this bit MOS DEF…. “And frankly, unless the bloke is happy to have the newborn, stay at home and raise it, go to Winz to beg for a benefit as a stay at home parent, no they don’t get a say. They had their say when they fucked without protection and an ounce of personal responsibility.”

        • bwaghorn

          “How about first to teach men to not just willy nilly ejaculate into a vagina”
          That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read on the standard !!
          Unless it’s rape she was willing you moron .
          Condoms and pills fail you moron .

          • bwaghorn

            I never said the current rule was ok .
            Are you suggesting kids have never been dropped off and the fathers and not pickled up ??
            I know a falla doing a great job of raising their kids because the mother is unfit .

            I have no problem with the donor paying child support .

          • Sabine

            Babtymaking 101 – vaginal intercourse during which men ejaculate semen in said vagina may lead to pregnancy. It does not matter if the ‘sex’ was consensual or not.

            You have an issue with basic biology now?

            • bwaghorn

              No I have an issue with man hating feminists saying pregnancy is all the man’s fault .

              • Sabine

                oh boy, now you are just silly.

                you need a snickers waghorn, you are getting mean and petty.

              • Wow waggy seems you’ve got some issues. The point is straightforward – too far eh accepting dumb dicks might have to take responsibility for ejaculating in a vagina.

                • bwaghorn

                  At what point have I said they should have no responsibility?? My whole point us based around the complete opposite. But no doubt you’ll get your belly scratch for the lovies in you life for wading in .

                  • Well your man hating bullshit showed you were losing it. Seems you’re too immature to get the point. Oh and I’ve been gender shamed by more viciously dicked people than you. But good try lol.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.4.2

        “It seems unfair that only the female has all the rights and the father has none.”

        Until birth, the female is the only one who is pregnant.

        • bwaghorn

          The bar would need to be set high . If they’ve been a couple for awhile etc I’m not suggesting forcing them to complete I just think they should be part of the discussion.

          • Sabine

            you assume that it is not part of the discussion. Says a lot about your fears just right here.

            • bwaghorn

              I’m just an old teaser ram now so I have no fears when it comes to this . But I would have done anything a could to meet my baby if her mother had of decided to abort .
              (No I wouldn’t have locked her up safely for 9 months)

      • lenore 5.4.3

        How should we raise our daughters then? Raise them to think they have control and independence of their bodies until at some points of their life, society thinks they shouldn’t or there is inequity to be able to make these choices. Don’t we all want to be able to make informed health choices and then have access to services? Our health services have been gutted under national but we can with terminations, there can be access to safe terminations in NZ if we change the laws, remove the stigma and enable women anywhere in NZ to access these services. There is the medical pill available.

        Also going through a pregnancy and childbirth can have lifelong affects on women given the politics of childbirth and the surgical interventions, particularly as women get older. I sometimes get the feeling that people just think it is about the pregnancy and childbirth – and yes, I think people should have a choice about whether their insides get so shoved about that they spend a good amount of time being sick, acid reflux, stretched, muscles split through to either pushing out a large pumpkin through a small hole, being cut from end to end (episiotomy) or having your stomach sliced open and stitched up again, let alone the more serious affects that lead to some poor women getting wire mesh embedded in their cervix and vagina. Now who wouldn’t be pissed off if they were forced to endure all this because society decided that other people had more rights.

        • Cinny

          Bravo Lenore ! Bravo !

        • bwaghorn

          So if there has been a long term relationship you don’t see the Male as having any rights . ?
          To be clear I understand the need to change the archaic law we have it would be good if all angles are covered in the new one .

          • Lenore

            Short answer is nope and no partner (cis male or other) has rights over someone else’s body no matter how long they have been together. It would terrify me if this happened – just feels like a slippery slope towards Margaret Atwood’s dystopia which gave me nightmares when I read it years ago.

          • Cinny

            I’d say the rights belonged to the body who is pregnant.

          • Andre

            Should the male have any rights, even partial, that might lead to compelling the female to carry another organism to term inside her?

            Nope. None whatsoever.

            The way I see it is, carrying a fetus to term requires the female to experience a whole range of uncomfortable and even medically dangerous changes, some of which may affect her the rest of her life, culminating in either an excruciatingly painful expulsion of the parasitic organism she’s been encumbered with, or alternatively an extremely invasive operation to remove said organism. Nobody and nothing should have the ability to compel that, the only way that should ever happen is by the female’s completely free choice.

            When society changes to the point that you, wags, and I, are at risk of being compelled to undergo some vaguely equivalent risky painful invasive procedure with long term negative consequences, say … involuntary organ donation, then maybe I might come round to thinking maybe we males should have some say in whether a female should carry a fetus to term. But until then, it should be the female’s sole and free choice.

            In the context of a long term relationship, if the female chooses to terminate a pregnancy without involving the male in any way, or against the male’s wishes, then the male certainly has the right to consider whether that’s a relationship he wants to be a part of. And the male has the right to end the relationship and move on if he chooses. But the male’s rights end there.

            • bwaghorn

              What about a mandatory counseling session if the man feels he isn’t being heard ? But with the woman still having full and final choice.

              • marty mars

                Why don’t you ask him if his belly’s been patted eh?

              • Andre

                Nope. No mandatory anything.

                The only right the male should have (and does have) if the female’s choices and actions (including declining voluntary counselling) don’t work for him is to end the relationship and move on to one where his partner’s actions and hopes fit him better.

          • Molly

            I think trying to come up with a hard and fast rule in this instance is a waste of time. I think I understand where you are coming from, and I do agree that if our expectation is for males to work towards being better supportive partners, and parents, then we must also acknowledge the emotional connection that they may already have with an unborn child. It is not the exclusive domain of the female to bond with a child until it is born.

            A good partnership – joined with effective family planning – means that the scenario of one partner wanting an abortion while the other does not would never happen. But real life is messier than that.

            A conversation on options where there is reassurance expressed that the father will take a supportive role for both mother and child, or alternatively, that they feel unable to step up to that role provides information that aids decision making.

            I agree, the ultimate decision is the female’s. But outside of rape or coerced pregnancy – I believe the ethical thing to do is allow the male to have input and be able to express their fears, desires and any practical offers of help.

            I have three sons of varying ages, and we have engaged in age appropriate conversations on sex, respect for sexual partners, contraception and the likelihood of them not having a choice if an unplanned pregnancy occurs on whether the pregnancy is carried to term or not.

            I believe the need to have complicated issues like this simplified in order to have unequivocal answers is a problem. Perhaps there is no hard and fast rule.

            If I relate the “purely my choice” approach to my long-term relationship, with a partner of more than three decades and after four children, I can only think that that response would be disrespectful of our past, and hostile, given his love and support over the years. In the same way that he would listen to my fears and my desire if I wanted to terminate a pregnancy, I could not do less for him, and would ask for – and take his views – into consideration.

  6. Charlie 6

    With regards that piece in the Herald today calling for the immigration minister to resign that idiot racist moron HDPA is just dog whistling. The decision to grant residency came with caveats that meant it could be reviewed at the ministers discretion. HDPA is a pathetic try hard attempting to land a hit on the govt that her mates in National desperately need. The Herald being the mouth piece for National would publish any crap as they have proven in the past. $100,000 fake donations anyone.

  7. Bearded Git 7

    Amazing woman-Professor Brady-being interviewed on Wallace’s RNZ now.

    She studies all things political Chinese. Speaks Chinese.

    Has talked about how the Chinese have sent people home for re-education when they publish the wrong kind of things about China in NZ. Yes in NZ.

    She has had her house burgled. Scary stuff. Well worth a listen.

    • Sabine 7.1

      china is a totalitarian regime. and totalitarian regimes do as totalitarian regimes have done since ever.

      and you better don’t ever piss of the politburo.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3

      Has talked about how the Chinese have sent people home for re-education when they publish the wrong kind of things about China in NZ. Yes in NZ.

      If there is proof of that then the government should be cutting all ties with China right away.

    • SaveNZ 7.4

      +1 Bearded Git – in the wake of the Jamal Khashoggi murder as well, maybe power trumps law because there seems to be this idea that if you are a powerful nation then you can go around harassing, kidnapping or murdering people you don’t like on foreign soil and that foreign soil can just be bought off or silenced. The real people and person behind the murder will probably never be bought to justice it is a sham…

      NZ already self silenced or bought by Chinese interests. We even have the Natz thinking two Chinese MP’s here are worth more than two Indians and obviously the Pakeha is fucking useless. That is the comment that shows where NZ government is leaning towards aka just like they do for the economy, clip a bit of the ticket and exchange power, influence and control for a little cash donation and self silencing.

      The Chinese government has unique problems and issue with it’s massive population to control and to try to somehow make it work. NZ does not have those issues but seems to be trying to go from a social, formerly egalitarian democracy into more a Chinese model of renqing and mianzi which might work with 1.3 billion people but in NZ we have only 4.5 million so rule of law and transparency is our model, and favour and face is not not supposed to influence decision making because that leads to corruption, stupidity and self serving rule without egalitarianism.

      • Fang Zhou 7.4.1

        I get very sad when I read many Kiwi comments about China. ‘China’ is not a country. It is an empire. If the autonomous regions of Xijiang and Xizang break away, China is a relatively small country and one with few resources.

        Right now in Xinjiang and Xizang, the policies of Mao are being once again pursued by Mr Xi. Forced reeducation to Mr Xi’s teachings. Forced shaving of beards and non wearing of Islamic clothes. The list goes on and on. And yes, many many deaths from the security forces and brutality is a normal day to day thing.

        People on here and in NZ go on and on about Israel and Palestine, but are generally ignorant and care not about far far worse things happening in China. Is that because we have yellow faces and so do not count? Where are the demonstrations outside the Chinese Embassy?

        • JanM

          It’s more likely because we don’t know and that may be because people from China are too afraid to speak up 🙁

          • Exkiwiforces

            That’s a really point to bring Jan, but I’ll would like to add this as well. That there is now a enough evidence that elements of the Chinese Communist Party have infiltrated a number of expat Chinese communities/ groups and including long established one dating when the first Chinese people arrived in Australia and NZ or are influencing these communities/ groups especially the foreign students.

            The more established Chinese Communities/ Groups are actually starting to inform the Police/ Intelligent Services at the infiltration or influenced of the Chinese Communist Party activities in those groups who really have no links to present day Mainland China expect for ancestral links to China.

    • SaveNZ 7.5

      Some good links and points – describes NZ position as ‘fairy land’ with regard to China influence. Apparently we are immune??? At least OZ has enough freedom in their media to explore the ideas of soft power China.


      “It differs from country to country but I think there are three or four key objectives for China in respect to Australia,” Prof Medcalf said.

      “China wants to weaken the Australia-US alliance to reduce the possibility that Australia would support America in a conflict in the Asian region.

      “It’s also trying to silence Australia’s independent voice in the Indo-Pacific region to make it less critical of Chinese policy. Many countries in South-East Asia look to Australia to be a solid voice. If that can be silenced, other voices can potentially be silenced as well.”

      China also has an interest in growing its technological advantage in both a military and civilian sense, and Australia is home to both quality, cutting-edge research and sensitive materials shared by allies.

      “And as I’ve pointed out, the final goal is to do with seeking to control Chinese communities in Australia,” Prof Medcalf said.

      “It’s really important to note that this increased awareness is not about being anti-Chinese. It’s about protecting Australia and Australians. That includes Chinese Australians. If we let foreign powers intimidate communities here, we have failed to protect their freedoms.”

  8. I really hope this woman and her family can get out before they are killed.

    “Asia Bibi’s husband pleads for family asylum in UK after blasphemy acquittal.

    Pakistan government accused of signing death warrant by blocking Christian woman from leaving the country”


  9. joe90 9

    It’s 1938, again.

    Can we just arrest George Soros ad seize his assets already? I am sick and damned tired of hearing about him trying to disrupt our Democracy every day.— Bill Mitchell (@mitchellvii) October 25, 2018

  10. Nick Cave and grief

    “Grief and love are forever intertwined. Grief is the terrible reminder of the depths of our love and, like love, grief is non-negotiable. There is a vastness to grief that overwhelms our minuscule selves.”

    “Within that whirling gyre all manner of madnesses exist; ghosts and spirits and dream visitations, and everything else that we, in our anguish, will into existence.”

    “These are precious gifts that are as valid and as real as we need them to be. They are the spirit guides that lead us out of the darkness.”


  11. joe90 11

    Holy wars are go.

    Washington state Rep. Matt Shea acknowledged Wednesday he had distributed a four-page manifesto titled “Biblical Basis for War,” which describes the Christian God as a “warrior,” details the composition and strategies of a “Holy Army” and condemns abortion and same-sex marriage.

    The document is organized in 14 sections with multiple tiers of bullet points and a smattering of biblical citations. Under one heading, “Rules of War,” it makes a chilling prescription for enemies who flout “biblical law.” It states, “If they do not yield – kill all males.”


  12. Dukeofurl 12

    There was a whole panopoly of lies here on The Standard yesterday about Kiwibuild….public owned land is gifted….houses are sold well below cost…going to upper middle class homeowners……and for you DTB, new homes aren’t warm and dry

    It was morongate if there ever was one. I’ve been involved in house development and the construction process as well as the supply of a major component, the windows. Yet people who knew about home building went on as though they did

    [Moving to open mike, off topic – MS]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • adam 12.1

      Yeap a whole false web site was set up, and then a rumour was begun, twitter ran new memes and wads of people started spreading rumours about the labour party – all here on the standard!!!

      Why is it labour party hacks get so upset when people questioning the official narrative?

      Why are some labour party hack doing the whole “if you’re not for us, you’re against us” meme? Who was the far right politician who popularised that line of attack again, oh that right George W.

      • Dukeofurl 12.1.1

        So your reply to specific lies is to go full bullshit about …..George Bush.WTF
        Sure kiwibuild doesn’t do anything for people who can’t afford a new house…but the rest of the stuff was just lies…….which makes it just like morongate.
        Why have a fake website when there is a place to spread the fabricated stuff at hand.
        By all means make your case against the policy… But have those things that are foreign to you, things called facts…they aren’t found by reading kiwiblog closely for talking points.
        BTW Adam , you are one of the loudest voices for ‘the either for us/ or you are against us’ method of political action…too loud in my view as well. No wonder you can remember a well forgotten person from 16 yrs ago.

        • adam

          Sheesh go out, run your hands through some dirt or somthing.

          You not being able to handle criticism, nor bad use of humour, is the sign of someone who is wound up to hard for their own good.

          • Dukeofurl

            Nah…just I have the chops to back up my thoughts…been on more building sites than you have had hot dinners

            • adam

              One would be more than me, but then again I’m sure I’ve been in more squats than you. And that I’ve helped more homeless and disabled than you.

              But that is not the debate, which ironically MS sorted for all of us. You and your false equivalence…

    • Muttonbird 12.2

      I really thought you were brighter than this. That you are not adds to my disappointments of the last week.

    • Bill 12.3

      A poorly chosen phrase pertaining to the transfer of assets, that was challenged and never defended in comments.

      And beyond that, you’re allegations revolve around the legitimate activity of people airing their opinions.

      I do like how your dragnet manages to miss the lies you wrote down and posted about sources used for specific bits of information in the post. An exercise you repeated in spite of being corrected. That’s classy.

      Oh. And your trolling. We’ll lob that over for you to catch and add to the rest of that baggage you’re heaving around on your side of the morongate 😉

      • Dukeofurl 12.3.1

        I don’t go back read everything again, but what did happen about that student thesis?
        I have years of experience involved with building real homes in NZ, including with builders who didplaces for Housing NZ and Habitat for Humanity. You don’t have to give your background away, but I’m assuming what you know about new homes in NZ is a bit above nothing. That’s fine. Just that readers should know that. You might like to confirm it and your interest in Mass housing is purely ‘academic’

        • Bill

          The thesis was linked to because that was the source for the quote around UK policy.

          The information around NZ building standards came from a commissioned report that was linked to, and that included quotes from reports by other orgs including the IEA and the OECD.

          Building standards that sufficed for 20th C climatic conditions are not necessarily going to suffice for the climatic conditions that are coming down the line.

          Two comprehensive sources were provided in a reply to ankerrawshark on that front that you probably won’t be bothered to go and find because you knows it all because you’ve got experience with builders.

          Odd that you believe builders should be the “go to” people on that front. Why would builders be expected to know about likely climatic shifts? Are builders climate scientists?

      • Jenny 12.3.2

        Bill 5.3
        4 November 2018 at 2:02 pm
        A poorly chosen phrase pertaining to the transfer of assets, that was challenged and never defended in comments…..

        Not quite,,,

        KiwiBuild doesn’t fly.

        Even harsher than Bill, is John Minto over at the Daily Blog


        • Bill

          K. 🙂 I should have said not challenged by me.

          Thing is. There was a lot of content in that post, and the fact some chose to base their entire (negative) engagement around the use of one (I’d say) carelessly chosen word says not a lot for where some peoples heads are.

          • Dukeofurl

            Even worse was your advancing the idea that a suburb indeed a ghetto , home to 10,000 living only in state houses should be intensified to 25,000+ .

            It wasnt just a slip over the meaning of one word, which you were very very reluctant to walk back on with a a simple ‘duh’

            [I’m over your level of commentary. Ironically – given that you’re running around saying others are lying – you’re lying. Either post a link to the comment where I wrote that I favoured that degree of intensification, retract your bullshit, or come back next year. That’s a three way choice. I’ll be back in while to see which option you’ve taken] – B

            • Dukeofurl

              Just seen this Midday Monday.

              Heres your quote with the context

              KiwiBuild doesn’t fly.

              “In Māngere the proposal is for 2,700 state houses to be demolished, to be replaced with around 3,000 new state houses, 3,500 Kiwibuild homes and 3,500 market houses….. [someones elses quote you highlighted about suburb intensification]

              Your answerCould have been 9000 state homes right there, but no..

              Thats exactly why I made the comment you ‘preferred’ going from 2700 state houses in the one suburb ( ‘right there’) to 10,000.
              Its a terrible policy of ghettoisation, even if they are new homes ,

              KiwiBuild doesn’t fly.

              Nope. That was in direct response to a question of how transferring public land to the private sector was blocking the building of state houses.

              Here’s what I wrote (the idea I advanced) in direct response to the question – “Do you really think it would be a good idea to build 10,000 state houses as one suburb?” in a sub-thread that you participated in.

              “Stuffing 10 000 poor people into one area with poor facilities and services would be an abomination in my eyes.

              Laying the groundwork for the gentrification of developments that are ostensibly being undertaken to alleviate homelessness, is also abominable in my eyes.

              Constructing 10 000 state houses for rent, with a good decile mix (therefore kind of guaranteeing that good services and facilities will be provided) and no right to buy ….that works.”

              So, where’s this quote where I favour the construction of 20 000 homes as ghettos?

              • solkta

                Constructing 10 000 state houses for rent, with a good decile mix

                I challenged you on this nonsense Bill and asked where in NZ this had happened and you said Europe but not where. I tried to continue the discussion but you ignored me.

                But even if there were cases of middle and upper income people living in state houses in a good mix your argument is still nonsense as this would not provide any more houses for low income people than doing the Kiwibuild thing.

                So much gymnastics.

        • Jenny

          I really don’t think that Bill and Minto’s critique of Kiwi Build, as harsh as you think they are Dukie, can hardly be equated with Morongate.

          • gsays

            Have to agree Jenny.

            I had to read the thread a couple of times but the gist I got was ‘rent to buy’= movement to private hands.
            The whenua, the commons, privatised.

            I’ve spent a few years doing residential building, while the carpenter I worked for had integrity and was a good craftsman I was left feeling that the industry was corrupt.

            From the various dodgy dealings of James Hardie (asbestos, spending workers pensions, cladding that failed in the 1970s), modern window flashing to manage water on the farming!, to gouging prices for supplies and the practice of changing business names to dodge responsibilities.

            Greed is at the root of it, home owners wanting bang for buck, councils looking to cut costs, builders getting squeezed and suppliers enjoying a rort.

  13. bwaghorn 13


    Hay bill down here . Whaddya think of nuclear fusion??

    • Jenny 13.1

      The old joke still stands.

      “Fusion is the energy source of the future, and always will be”

      • bwaghorn 13.1.1

        They cover that in the link . Lots of things are impossible till someone knocks the bugger off.

        • Jenny

          It may be possible, but it might never be practical. Even if break even is achieved, longer term there is the problem of neutron bombardment of the containment vessel walls which limits lifetime, requiring regular and expensive containment vessel rebuilds

          • Andre

            The problem of the released neutrons making the containment vessel radioactive isn’t necessarily the killer. If it’s deuterium-tritium fusion, then those neutrons are actually needed to breed more tritium. Then there’s a bunch of aneutronic fusion reactions that don’t release significant numbers of neutrons.

            Even if the basic physics problems of managing the plasma to get it to high enough temps for long enough to get useful fusion ever get solved, I’m curious how to extract that heat from the plasma out through the containment magnets which have to be kept supercooled. I’ve yet to see any info on proposals of how to do that.

  14. eco maori 14

    Kia ora The Am Show I say fireworks should be banned from popup stores sales.
    The left are going to weld power for a long time with the success of the Labour Party conference.
    There you go with the LAWN MOWER MEN message to trump FU45 ka pai vote the trump supporters out you should see the amount of cheating that’s gone on in the American elections by the go oil party for the last 30 years gerrymandering they call it it’s CHEATING no wonder they are having a hard time putting there children’s future up as the most important thing the world society should be aiming for . a Sharp carbon reduction and a healthy planet.
    It would be nice if the teachers and the government came to a settlement .
    Would it not be a good idea to training teachers on the job like the trades you would soon find the good ones.
    Angry Anderson condolences for your loss of your son.
    I think that marriage and relationship are not held in the eyes of the people as being a important part of one life and a child’s well being . In my book if you have a child together your are married then its should be about the child’s wellbeing breaking up is the wrong thing to do unless there are major obstetrical’s relationship are hard work but you will reap the rewards of that commitment. Ka kite ano

    • Chris T 14.1

      Agree re the pop ups

      Not sure when that even started.

      You should at least have to have some sort of sales of dangerous good certificate, where you have to show they are stored and displayed securely

      Sad about Angry Anderson’s son

      Both smashed out of their trees apparently. They couldn’t even interview the alleged killer for 12 hours or so till he came down off what ever he was on.

  15. eco maori 15

    Eco Maori thinks it would be awesome if some one help sponsor these young people in there quest to voice there concerns about human caused climate in Poland’s UN Climate change conference .
    The group of seven have been busy fundraising and preparing for the intensive two-week climate talks held in Poland this year.

    India Logan-Riley (Ngāti Kahungunu ki Ngāti Hawea ki Whatuiapiti) is the head delegate for the ropu and a climate conference veteran.

    This trip marks her fourth climate conference so her role has been to prepare the group on climate policy and what to expect.

    The group is focused on ensuring there is an official indigenous voice entrenched in the Paris Agreement. We have one Mother Earth and its is like a heaven so long as greed is taken out of the Equation we will turn the whole planet into HELL if we do not dump Carbon . Ka kite ano links below.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/370171/group-to-represent-indigenous-youth-at-un-climate-conference Mother nature beauty will sail away from us.

  16. eco maori 16

    Amercian Wahine /Ladies and minority cultures please get up and vote for OUR future gennerations happy healthy Equal LIFE kia kaha
    This man won power in 2008 and had a big mess to clean up and now he is protecting his legacy by campaigning for the Democrats in the mid term American elections
    in a very Honorable fashion Kia kaha Obama you fight for all the worlds EQUAL healthy happy future.
    Former President Barack Obama said Sunday that Republicans have “racked up enough indictments to field a football team” while campaigning for Democrats ahead of the midterm elections on Tuesday Ka kite ano links below


  17. eco maori 17

    Kia ora Newshub yes the banks need to be held accountable people go in to the bank and they do sell products that are not need I have experienced that Ka pai Labour.
    There you go a lot of new immigrants are exploited buy there own cultures and that is not acceptable in Aotearoa in 2018 Michael .
    Lloyd it is good to honour our fallen ancestors solders in Le Quesnoy France but I say the big picture is war should be confined to our history books the war we should be fighting is correcting the chemical ballance of mother earth and slow down climate warming.
    Mike Mc Roberts I hope that the Democrats win the house and senate in the American mid term elections.
    Punakaika & Lake Ellesmere tree planting is a good program we will be planting millions of trees cool Shane .
    Mike that’s the Maori Kiwi wairua guiding Mike Lloyd 10 times running the New York Marathon have you guide him six time’s.
    Ka kite ano

  18. eco maori 18

    Kia ora Wairangai & James The Kiwis will learn from that game Kia Kaha .
    Scotts jandles have been going fine.
    Good shot James .
    Israel had a good fight .
    The Irish Rugby player has some mean skills the All Blacks have some competition that will be good to watch The Black Teams 3 wins ka pai. Ka kite ano

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