Open Mike 06/04/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 6th, 2018 - 188 comments
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188 comments on “Open Mike 06/04/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    6 April 2018 at 6:13 am

    Craig Murray reveals more as the lies about spies by bumbling Boris unfold.

    Sources in Foreign and Commonwealth Office told me 2 weeks ago that Porton Down were unable to say it was Russia but were under pressure by Conservatives to say it was” says Craig Murray as scientists have been unable to prove Russia made the nerve agent A-234 used to poison the Skripals.”

  2. Tony Veitch (not etc) 2
    6 April 2018 at 6:20 am

    The Skripal affair:

    I think its worth posting some paragraphs from the link Ed provided last night:
    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/knobs-and-knockers/

    . . . the government advised those who may have been in contact to wash their clothes and wipe surfaces with warm water and wet wipes. Suspect locations were hosed down by the fire brigade.

    But if the substance was in a form that could be washed away, why was it placed on an external door knob? It was in point of fact raining heavily in Salisbury that day, and indeed had been for some time.

    Can somebody explain to me the scenario in which two people both touch the exterior door handle in exiting and closing the door? And if it transferred from one to the other, why did it not also transfer to the doctor who gave extensive aid that brought her in close bodily contact, including with fluids?

    The second problem is that the Novichok family of nerve agents are instant acting. There is no such thing as a delayed reaction nerve agent. Remember we have been specifically told by Theresa May that this nerve agent is up to ten times more powerful than VX, the Porton Down developed nerve agent that killed Kim’s brother in 15 minutes.

    But if it was on the doorknob, the last contact they could possibly have had with the nerve agent was a full three hours before it took effect. Not only that, they were well enough to drive, to walk around a shopping centre, visit a pub, and then – and this is the truly unbelievable bit – their central nervous systems felt in such good fettle, and their digestive systems so in balance, they were able to sit down and eat a full restaurant meal. Only after all that were they – both at precisely the same time despite their substantially different weights – suddenly struck down by the nerve agent, which went from no effects at all, to deadly, on an alarm clock basis.

    This narrative simply is not remotely credible….

    . . . Boris lied about the certainty of the provenance of the nerve agent, and his fall back evidence is at present highly unconvincing. None of which proves it was not the Russian state that was responsible. But there is no convincing proof that it was, and there are several other possibilities. Eventually the glaring problems with the official narrative might be resolved, but what is plain is that Johnson and May have been premature and grossly irresponsible.

    We all need to take a damn good dose of scepticism! [My conclusion].

    • Ed 2.1
      6 April 2018 at 6:38 am

      Craig Murray is a brave hero, just as Jon Stephenson is as he stands up to the lies by the establishment here about the murder of civilians in Afghanistan.

      Their courage stands in stark contrast to the simpering sycophants Luke Soper, duplicity and the rest of the wretched crew.

      • Jenny 2.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 6:51 am

        Good grief!

      • reason 2.1.2
        6 April 2018 at 8:07 am

        People also need to know our ‘murder raid’, was just one of thousands of ‘night raids’ …. where Afghani civilians lives count for nothing.

        The smear campaign against Jon Stephenson and Nicky Hagar appears like a well used script of warmongers, when this movie … primary about Afghan ‘night raids’ is viewed

        • Gosman 2.1.2.1
          6 April 2018 at 10:33 am

          What is the current government going to do about it?

          • reason 2.1.2.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 11:17 pm

            Getting out of these illegal wars of false pretenses would be a good start Gosman …. there’s no guts in them .

            Compensation for destroying homes and killing or injuring children and other civilians ….. would be a small measure of Justice.

            Investigations ….. including Mark Mitchells war profiteering company….

            ….See if he has a hand in murder …. in the illegal violence and insecurity that his sort brought ….to the butchered and brutalized people of Iraq.

            I presume you’d just like to carry on making money from others blood Gosman?….. or do you actually have any helpful suggestions ??

      • cleangreen 2.1.3
        6 April 2018 at 9:14 am

        Yes Ed;

        A senior scientist was also testifying on the media last night saying that type of nerve agent was quite simple to produce and could be done anywhere for $30 000 dollars if do it carefully with safeguards to avoid exposure while making the nerve agent.

        • Ed 2.1.3.1
          6 April 2018 at 5:35 pm

          Murray.

          “This narrative simply is not remotely credible. Nerve agents – above all “military grade nerve agents” – were designed as battlefield weapons. They do not leave opponents fighting fit for hours. There is no description in the scientific literature of a nerve agent having this extraordinary time bomb effect. “

          Game over bumbling Boris.

      • Stuart Munro 2.1.4
        6 April 2018 at 9:26 am

        Craig Murray is a person whose views should be taken with a pinch of salt – his initial attack on Porton Down was rubbish.

        • Brigid 2.1.4.1
          6 April 2018 at 9:58 am

          I’d like you to be more specific. In all of Craig’s analysis of the SKripal affair, where do you think he’s made an unfounded assumption?

          • David Mac 2.1.4.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 10:13 am

            Personally, anything with a little green RT in the corner needs a pinch of salt….I don’t mean I anticipate lies. I put on my ‘So what are the Kremlin saying now’ glasses.

            This story has mileage for a number of reasons, the slow recuperation of the victims is the least of them. The strongest motivating force is the potential for major changes in the narrative with just tiny tweaks of the sketchy evidence that’s in the public arena.

            Personally I haven’t encountered anything that has changed my view, which is: The ex KGB officer Putin knows more than he is saying. Leopards/spots.

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.4.1.2
            6 April 2018 at 10:14 am

            You may recall his column “Of a Type Developed by Liars”.

            https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

            Evidently Murray would have preferred that they (Porton Down) had stated that it was of Russian origin, which is what they would have done had they actually been liars.

            It’s safe to dismiss Murray as a thoroughly compromised propagandist.

            • Brigid 2.1.4.1.2.1
              6 April 2018 at 10:22 am

              “Evidently Murray would have preferred that they (Porton Down) had stated that it was of Russian origin, which is what they would have done had they actually been liars.”

              And you know that’s what Craig Murray preferred? How do you know that?

              You’ve missed the point he is making entirely.
              I think you, with all due respect, don’t have the wit to understand what Craig Murray is implying.

              • Stuart Munro …
                6 April 2018 at 10:28 am

                Yes it’s true, one must be a halfwit to be persuaded by Murray.

                Murray is calling a bunch of chemists liars because they made an appropriately truthful statement about their results.

                They could not at that time determine the source of the agent. There are a number of reasons for that, possibly including access to representative samples of Russian Novichok stocks. The scientists concerned however mentioned that they had some hope of determining origin using less esoteric tracing procedures like pollen analysis.

                • Carolyn_Nth …
                  6 April 2018 at 10:39 am

                  Murray merely pointed to the fact that the Porton Down scientist had not identified the source of th nerve agent. this contradicted the May government hyperbole.

                  The issue is being polarised. We need a clear reporting of the evidence and to avoid getting sucked into bot the Putin/Kremlin or May/Tory opportunist hyperbole.

                  Of course Putin’s mob will pick up on Murray’s criticism. That doesn’t make him a Putin dupe.

                  And on the anti-Putin side, media are not giving Murray very much MSM space.

                  So the cold war style polarisation continues. I’d rather just wait for hard evidence.

                  Team May’s over blown anti-Russian rhetoric is starting to unravel somewhat.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    6 April 2018 at 10:50 am

                    If Murray is not a Putin dupe, one must question his determination to smear Porton Down.

                    Science doesn’t necessarily give the results a political situation would prefer – to identity the agent as part of the Novichok family but not attribute sources was entirely proper on the part of Porton Down.

                  • cleangreen …
                    6 April 2018 at 4:20 pm

                    I don’t believe the theory that Murray was a propagandist as we all saw the other side begin this fairy tale in the exact manner that professional Propagandists do and not the way murray did it.

                    Wake up Kiwis. This is the elitists now war-mongering for wanting to get russia destabilised so they can get their hands ion russia’s massive oil reserves as happened during the last war around 1942.

                    Probably this has been hatched at the ‘Bilderberg Group’ by their many ‘black ops’.

                • francesca …
                  6 April 2018 at 10:52 am

                  You’ll only find pollen on the means of delivery, the container if you like.
                  So far no one has a clue where or what that was
                  Any pollen at present will be thoroughly British pollen (wrong time of year incidentally) adhering to the sticky gel…well it must be damn sticky to have persevered after three weeks of rain and snow… on the Skripals door knob
                  Incidentally, I notice the garage of the Skripal house is attached, so entry from the house, obviating the need to go out the front door to access the car
                  Maybe the assassin was blindly following the dictates of Boris’s assassin handbook…how to apply poison to doorknobs…recently discovered at a garage sale no doubt

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    6 April 2018 at 11:02 am

                    Mmm, I expect the scientists concerned would be able to sort representative pollen samples from Russia or England without enormous difficulty, depending on what material they have to test.

                    Let’s suppose for the moment an agent weaponized as a sticky gel on a door handle – it might indeed contain traces of a “Salisbury Series” of local pollens – but, depending on its conditions of manufacture, it might also contain a foreign series identifiable by experienced palynologists.

                    That’s about as far as we can go at this point – they haven’t asserted anything further yet.

                    Because Yulia has been traveling to Russia recently some articles in the Skripal household likely innocently contain a Russian series.

                • francesca …
                  6 April 2018 at 10:55 am

                  Stuart… on your assertion that Murray smears the Porton Down scientists, thats not true

                  He wrote that the Porton Down scientists were reluctant to declare the nerve agent was from Russia, and were resentful at having to compromise with “of a type developed by Russia” etc
                  No way is he calling them liars, he;’s calling Boris and Theresa liars

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    6 April 2018 at 11:05 am

                    He is critical of the formula “of a type developed by Russia” which is true, and which the scientists will have had to insist on despite a May & Johnson preference that they “sex up the dossier” by making a direct attribution to Russia.

                    • francesca …
                      6 April 2018 at 11:51 am

                      Craig’s position was that it was not the scientists insisting, as you say, on the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” but that that was a compromise insisted on by May, to bring in the word “Russia”
                      Its pretty clear that that phrase is a politicisation of the science, that the Porton Down scientists would rightly feel resentful of

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      6 April 2018 at 11:54 am

                      Would you like to assert that Novichoks were not developed by Russia?

            • reason 2.1.4.1.2.2
              6 April 2018 at 11:31 pm

              The following doco throws up the immediate question …. what the fuck were the brits doing testing Sarin / nerve gas on their own soldiers??.

              even back in the 1950’s that’s seriously mucked up.

              • Exkiwiforces …
                7 April 2018 at 12:11 am

                They did it IOT test anti-pen drug post attack, post attack drills, testing CBRN suits and decom drills. They also tested LSD etc on the troops as well back with some very interesting results and if you get to see any of the training films they were funny to watch, but bloody scary as well.

                Did see one where they gave a cat some LSD and threw a mouse into the cage which made some interesting viewing.

                The US and Soviet era CBRN films are quite shocking to watch especially when they let off a can of instant sunshine and the old Soviet ones were bloody awful to watch, but at were interesting to watch if you didn’t have big lunch.

                A couple of NATO countries do still run a few CBRND cse’s, in a controlled environment where they use a Nerve argent so the students get to feel what the effects of Chemical attack/ post attack would be like also they conduct a full decom drill at an individual and at group level doing a vehicle.

                I know a couple of people who have done theses cse’s and they found it to be one of the best post graduate cse’s they have ever done in their service career.

        • One Two 2.1.4.2
          6 April 2018 at 10:10 am

          As you like, Stuart…

          Do as you like…

          If it makes you feel more comfortable about your position on this subject…

          Your ‘initial view’ was, and is ‘rubbish’…taking sides is a recipe for a climb down…

          No need to project on to others…yet again…

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.4.2.1
            6 April 2018 at 10:15 am

            Oh please One Two – be a tragic Putin dupe on your own time – don’t flaunt your shame in public.

            • One Two 2.1.4.2.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 10:31 am

              I’ve not taken a ‘side’ , Stuart…you have..and in no uncertain terms have stated it while rubbishing and insulting others…

              The position which yourself and others here have taken…has now unravelled completely…

              So not only are you ‘the dupe’…you don’t understand what projection is…

              Have a good day…

              • Stuart Munro …
                6 April 2018 at 10:33 am

                Yes, yes, we’ve heard it all before.

                You’re not fooling anyone except yourself.

                • Brigid …
                  6 April 2018 at 11:49 am

                  Are you and oab attending the same master class?

                  Oh nooooossss
                  You’re one and the same!!
                  Does the tutor know?

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    6 April 2018 at 11:52 am

                    Have you anything meaningful to add Brigid?

                    • cleangreen …
                      6 April 2018 at 4:24 pm

                      What an arrogant dupe you are Stuart

                      No need to snipe at those you don’t agree with!!!!.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      7 April 2018 at 11:00 am

                      Cleangreen

                      They post unsubstantiated nonsense with great frequency – One Two is a seething mass of personal attacks and claims to have a “superior imagination”.

                      I deal with facts.

                      The fact is that Putin is a cold war autocrat who would not hesitate to murder the Skripals for a moment. There are means, motive and opportunity. No other explanation is more than unsupported speculation at this time.

                      Most of the nonsense floated to confuse the case comes from Russian sources – the Putin dupes simply repeat the dezinformatsiya they have been provided.

                      Like the Stalin dupes two generations before they need to wake up to what it is they are defending.

            • francesca 2.1.4.2.1.2
              6 April 2018 at 12:09 pm

              Stuart, too much gabbing, the reply buttons gone

              The Soviet Union had a novichok program, a pretty loose program exploring new groups of nerve agent
              The facility at Uzbekistan was dismantled and removed by the Americans
              The facility at Shikhany (in Russia )that UK intelligence now pinpoints as the source of THE novichok, was declared by the Russians to the OPCW and was gone over with a fine tooth comb by the OPCW.during its supervision of chemical weapon destruction finalised in 2017.
              It is subject to monitoring
              Under the CWC Russia has agreed to monitoring by the OPCW

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikhany

              • Stuart Munro …
                6 April 2018 at 12:27 pm

                Yes – I think we need to be slightly careful of assertions from retired chemical weapons specialists because they won’t be based on current analysis of what is available of the agent that affected the Skripals.

                But, it’s not an awfully long bow to draw to suggest that some part of Shikhany stocks may have been abstracted by FSB or a related agency prior to the wind up of that operation. The quantity of material used in the Salisbury attack seems not to have been great.

                Whether the agent in fact came from there, and whether that is provable are quite different propositions. It is likely that professional British comment on such matters will be sparse while the OPCW is investigating – there’s no surer way to turn investigators against oneself than trying to press them to replicate one’s own results.

                • francesca …
                  6 April 2018 at 3:53 pm

                  Well if we’re going to be drawing long bows…a little like shoehorning our theories to fit our prejudices…
                  First of all, after the breakup of the Soviet Union was the time Russia’s facilities would have been least secure, but thats what 30 years ago?The samples would be degraded
                  Then, if later , the protocols at Shikhany were able to be breached by the FSB, why wouldn’t that be possible for M16 at Porton Down, or indeed, the CIA through the Pentagon shared research program at Porton Down
                  And then theres Israel, not signed up to the CWC, secretive and unmonitored,rumoured to have a huge chemical weapons program , and to have assassinated Arafat with polonium.

                  https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/whatkilledarafat/
                  Israel most definitely would like to kick Russia out of Syria , what with the lucrative Golan Heights deal going with Genie Energy..Rothschild, Cheney , Woolsey, Murdoch consortium.Woolsey is the CIA connection
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_Energy
                  I note that the British and US are now bringing Syria in to the mix, as evidence of Russia’s dastardliness and chemical weapons
                  .
                  It seems that once novichoks are weaponised, binary elements mixed and a suitable method of delivery devised, they can’t really be stockpiled, as they degrade quickly
                  Binary elements can be stockpiled, but if they were filched the thieves would have the vast problem of keeping themselves alive when attempting to produce the compound
                  If the precursors are common insecticides etc, what say the blood samples show broken down organophosphates like good old carbamate, every wasp killer’s friend?
                  Skripal thought he’d try it on the slugs?

                • francesca …
                  6 April 2018 at 4:08 pm

                  And re: your previous question
                  The PD scientists could equally and truthfully have said “of a type produced by Iran” Maybe Theresa’s saving that for another day

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    7 April 2018 at 11:07 am

                    No they couldn’t Francesca – Iran has not put it into production. Russia did, in defiance of their CWC agreements.

                    Someone has recreated it in a lab – not the same thing.

        • Ed 2.1.4.3
          6 April 2018 at 5:27 pm

          I disagree.
          Murray is completely credible.

          • David Mac 2.1.4.3.1
            6 April 2018 at 6:05 pm

            Do you think people presenting their opinions on RT do so with an underlying agenda? I think I’d be a mug to think otherwise.

            No different to a British lab getting overly pointy finger but it’s silly to think that only some of those presenting opinions have a barrow to push.

            • francesca 2.1.4.3.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 6:52 pm

              I can not for the life of me think what Larry King’s agenda could be

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.4.3.2
            7 April 2018 at 11:07 am

            Only to the credulous.

    • francesca 2.2
      6 April 2018 at 7:33 am

      We all need to take a damn good dose of scepticism
      I agree
      And now Yulia is speaking and optimistic that all will be well
      After all the dire predictions of being a vegetable. It seems there is even hope for the dad
      the British newspapers are in damage control mode
      Now there is talk of a Russian handbook for assassins on how to smear nerve agents on door handles!
      I’m not joking, Boris has just rummaged around and found it
      Beano comics anyone?

      • One Two 2.2.1
        6 April 2018 at 10:59 am

        Same ‘producers’of the IsIs/AQ ‘handooks for terrorists’…

        • francesca 2.2.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 11:55 am

          And the application forms for Al Qaeda found in Bin Ladens book shelf.
          Who makes this stuff up ?

          • One Two 2.2.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 10:17 pm

            Quite likely the work dedicated teams of script writers..

            That said, over many decades of overt western propaganda the level of it is so low it beggars belief…

            The pristine undamaged passports found underneath the collapsed WTC buildings was a classic piece…

    • Tony Veitch (not etc) 2.3
      6 April 2018 at 7:47 am

      My apologies – looking at my post a good hour after submitting it, I realised I should have put the whole thing (except the first and last lines) in quotation marks.

      My bad!

    • McFlock 2.4
      6 April 2018 at 11:56 am

      Assuming the weather report isn’t just another lie (oh look, noon seemed chilly but fine), the architectural features you’re thinking of are “eaves”.

      • McFlock 2.4.1
        6 April 2018 at 5:53 pm

        Hang on, did Murray argue that a powder absorbed through the skin would be as instantaneously effective as a mist sprayed at someone’s face (like, where breathing happens)?

        Totes legit lol

        • Incognito 2.4.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 9:57 pm

          They are stable and easily dispersed, highly toxic and have rapid effects both when absorbed through the skin and via respiration. Nerve agents can be manufactured by means of fairly simple chemical techniques. The raw materials are inexpensive and generally readily available.

          …

          Poisoning takes longer when the nerve agent enters the body through the skin. Nerve agents are more or less fat-soluble and can penetrate the outer layers of the skin. However, it takes some time before the poison reaches the deeper blood vessels. Consequently, the first symptoms do not occur until 20-30 minutes after the initial exposure but subsequently the poisoning process may be rapid if the total dose of nerve agent is high.

          https://www.opcw.org/about-chemical-weapons/types-of-chemical-agent/nerve-agents/

          • McFlock 2.4.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 11:01 pm

            At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, but “20-30 minutes” and “may be rapid if the total dose of nerve agent is high” is a very different beast to Murray’s “instant acting”, no?

            Not to mention that the initial symptoms include increased saliva and a runny nose. And if the “20-30 minutes” estimate is off by a factor of 6 simply because the substance or delivery method isn’t identical to, say, sarin, there’s absolutely no time problem at all.

            I realised that the other thing that was pissing me off about the “instant death” theory was that it means that it was done in a british town centre (street cameras?) with people close enough on scene to clear airways before someone choked or suffocated, but delivery was specific enough that there were no traces airborne to affect the responders. So that theory also pretty much requires the first responders to be in on it and still decide to save the victims’ lives, as well as the police to be lying about where their officers were injured (for no reason whatsoever – why not just say the victims were poisoned in town, but there are no leads?). It’s bloody stupid.

      • mauī 2.4.2
        7 April 2018 at 9:44 am

        3.3mm of rain on the day. Your weather report location is out by about 12 kilometres I think.

        https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IWILTSHI68#history/s20180304/e20180304/mdaily

    • Ed 2.5
      6 April 2018 at 5:37 pm

      ‘Knobs and Knockers’ Should form the base of a post.
      The government is now a proven liar.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.6
      7 April 2018 at 7:38 am

      As per Incognito’s comment at 2.4.1.1 below, absorption through the skin takes 20-30 minutes before symptoms start.

      So much for Craig Murray. I wonder if the facts will even register with those who follow his pronouncements.

  3. reason 3
    6 April 2018 at 7:36 am

    KISS … keep it simple smiley 🙂

    Yes there are lots of ‘pile in’ attacks on the Labour led coalition by our partisan media….. some of it fed and lead by unethical Dirty politics embeds …. like attack politics specialists Farrar and Hooten.

    Here’s the simple counter …

    The simple fact /facts are NZ’s inequality widened … and hardship grew … the quickest in the western / developed world.

    Particularly under Nation … We got worse the quickest … we were winning their race … to the bottom.

    We have lead the world in getting worst the quickest … since the start of the neo -Lib rogernomics/ ruthenasia in the 1980’s…. we were quicker harder adopters than Aussies, Canadians etc.

    The results …

    To repeat our society got worst the quickest …

    ….with a slow down of the worst indicators and attacks on workers … when Helen Clarkes Labour coalition Government was in power.

    But John Keys / Bill english;s government really were balls out … and ramped up pollution, homelessness, domestic violence, corruptions etc …. and we got worse the quickest in the world again.

    Other countries should look to New Zealand when wanting to learn what to avoid ….

    And New Zealand should be looking overseas to see which countries have the most successful ways of tackling the problems we are facing.

    This should not be a left / right thing ,,, but evidence based policy of what actually works around the world …

    National should be hung up as guilty vandals … for their part in creating and inflicting ‘worst practice’ … delivered upon New Zealanders with dishonest malice ….

    Why would anyone take criticism seriously …. from the very people who made things the worst …. for everyone apart from the top 10% … water poisoning aside.

    … 80% non-compliant and semi-legal seems to have been their moto for governing. And sir Johnny made-offs ‘creativity’ …. which got us a special mention in the Panama papers … or his guts … which got us a three year old dead Taliban girl.

    But for the short KISS meme ….. New Zealands economic problems got worse in the developed world the quickest ….

    And, we should be looking around the world for what works best for specific problems / areas … eg crime or housing as two examples

    Finally, Heres a reminder of how far back Hootons been a dirty cock, ….and the false narrative attack politics that the Nats / media specialize in
    ,,,

    • Ed 3.1
      6 April 2018 at 7:53 am

      The media have to lie.
      Their owners would lose their control if people knew the truth.

      I would actually put Key, English, Richardson, Douglas and a few others in front of a people’s court on the count of treason.

      • solkta 3.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 8:07 am

        So would you change the law or just arbitrarily declare them guilty and ready for the gallows?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.2
        6 April 2018 at 8:11 am

        I would actually put Key, English, Richardson, Douglas and a few others in front of a people’s court…

        This is after you’ve won the civil war you’re going to start, is it? Because that’s the only way you’re going to get a kangaroo court in New Zealand.

        • Sanctuary 3.1.2.1
          6 April 2018 at 8:16 am

          Roger Douglas is a definitely a traitor.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.2.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 8:20 am

            Funny, I’ve always thought of him as a jabbering dupe.

            • Sanctuary 3.1.2.1.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 8:47 am

              The two are not mutually exclusive.

              Over the years of listening to Douglas i’ve come to the conclusion the guy is as thick as pigshit and as morally bereft and cunning as a starving rat. Thick because he clearly has only ever had one idea in his life, and the way he has fanatically clung to it indicates in my experience a limited imagination and intellect. Cunning and morally bereft because he set out to use the great institution of the welfare state, the Labour party, to destroy it’s legacy and he did so with no electoral mandate and no sense of guilt.

              • solkta …
                6 April 2018 at 8:54 am

                What original idea did he have? My understanding is that it was just neo-liberalism repackaged to look like something unique. Rogernomics in NZ; Thatcherism in UK; Reaganomics in USA.

              • Anne …
                6 April 2018 at 10:30 am

                Over the years of listening to Douglas i’ve come to the conclusion the guy is as thick as pigshit…

                He was brainwashed by big business but thick? No he was not. I witnessed a scene many years ago where Douglas confounded all those present. Two former economists were attempting to solve a complex mathematical problem.They both proceeded to write down a long list of calculations and after 5 mins, they came up with the answer. Douglas happened along and he was asked to solve the same problem. He stood there thinking for a minute or so and came up with the correct answer. Everybody was gobsmacked.

                He was at the least a mathematical genius, even if his adopted ideology was fatally flawed.

                • Gosman …
                  6 April 2018 at 10:45 am

                  And yet we still follow his basic reforms to this day despite you thinking they were fatally flawed. By the way fatally flawed means we should be dead.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    6 April 2018 at 10:47 am

                    The Treasury Department calls it “morbidity with a social gradient”.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 April 2018 at 12:03 pm

                      Nah, that’s just illness from black mould.

                      You’re thinking of “mortality with a social gradient”, and it’s a health term. Treasury refer to it as the “integrated, phased removal of non-productive economic units”.

                  • Anne …
                    6 April 2018 at 11:12 am

                    …fatally flawed means we should be dead.

                    Fair point. I withdraw and apologise for the word “fatally”. 😕

                  • Gabby …
                    6 April 2018 at 1:01 pm

                    Quite a literal chappie aren’t you gozza.

        • savenz 3.1.2.2
          6 April 2018 at 9:20 am

          Kangaroo courts.. we already have them here… anyone who goes to court, gets arrested and is the wrong colour or class or gets the wrong lawyer, or puts in a complaint to the plethora of government commissions – knows that justice is two tier, and in the case of commissions it’s generally just a Kafka like exercise to keep people thinking for years that something might happen, justice might happen, democracy might happen until they realise that it’s just another way for government to pretend there is comeback in this country for injustice.

          Because in general, nothing comes of all these commissions lasting for years and taking the injustice from the applicants even further by giving them hope and then it slowly sucking it away, while taking as much energy of the applicants as possible away with it.

          Look at Pike River, it happened in 2010. Has justice been served yet? That is a big example, but our justice systems have stopped working a while ago because due to little and often not very public law changes over the years there is now huge power imbalance in this country to the people who live in this country.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.2.2.1
            6 April 2018 at 9:27 am

            A kangaroo court is defined as

            an unofficial court held by a group of people in order to try someone regarded, especially without good evidence, as guilty of a crime or misdemeanour.

            Whatever the problems with the current set-up, which I note Andrew Little appears to be taking stock of, they’re nothing compared to the sort of show-trials being proposed here.

            • savenz 3.1.2.2.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 9:36 am

              How Dot com was treated was a Kangaroo court style as the original charges of copywrite were not even a criminal charge, but held by official sanction. Maybe we have our own official versions..

              Kiwiaroo court,

              Kaftka, meets officialdom meets Kangaroo court (as in the outcomes are often predetermined in NZ before the evidence is produced and it’s become a meaningless process).

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                6 April 2018 at 9:41 am

                Hello. Earth to Savenz. The so-called “kangaroo” court has given him leave to sue the government and judged the initial assault illegal. The then attorney general has been ruled to have broken the law.

                It’s quite likely that the long list of state misdemeanours will see him walk free in due course.

                That’s the opposite of a kangaroo court.

                • savenz …
                  6 April 2018 at 9:52 am

                  The point is, that he should never have been charged in the first place. If Hollywood has a beef, they should have sued him themselves (and spent their time and money and liability on it).

                  70 armed defenders live to the US has the hallmarks of Kangaroo court.

                  And he’s only still here because he’s an incredible fighter and was able to make enough money to stall long enough to still be here in NZ after they removed his funds and stopped him even getting his own records held by government departments.

                  I don’t call that justice. And he’s still not a free man – years later. Destroying someones lives, kids, marriage for years, is not really what I consider justice.

                  Nor do I think Pike River families and dead received any justice either. There is a process of justice, but not justice in this country.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    6 April 2018 at 10:05 am

                    The judiciary didn’t deny him the right to see the files held about him – they upheld his right to access them.

                    • savenz …
                      6 April 2018 at 10:36 am

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/finlayson-found-to-have-breached-dotcoms-rights/

                      weasel words… justice is not working in NZ and there are plenty of high profile examples to choose from Hager, to Dotcom to Bradbury to Pike River, even Phil Goff and the SIS.

                      If you excuse it, you enable it.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 April 2018 at 10:47 am

                      The Police are not the courts. The courts upheld Hager’s rights too.

                      These aren’t weasel words they’re facts. The Police and the government acted very badly in both cases, and were brought to heel by the justice system.

                      Are there big problems in the courts? Yes – mostly a consequence of “cost saving” measures by the previous government, but also institutional racism and as we’ve heard, rape culture.

                      Conflating the administrative arm with the judicial arm won’t help us solve these problems, it just adds to the confusion.

                  • David Mac …
                    6 April 2018 at 10:39 am

                    Copyright infringement is the least of Dotcom’s problems. We can watch Disney movies on utube.

                    It’s the racketeering aspect of the charges that are proving tricky. When he started paying money to those mainly teen boys that uploaded the most content onto Mega he committed a federal offence. It’s not Warner Bros after him anymore it’s the FBI. Those guys have a compelling paper trail, play a long game and seldom lose.

                    • savenz …
                      6 April 2018 at 10:56 am

                      Key made his 0% tax havens legal.. and the EU were not happy, but hey he knows the Queen so that’s ok. One of China’s most wanted gambles 500 million at Sky City, but that’s ok too. Some kids upload some videos and 70 armed defenders at your door, Nice to see priorities are straight.

                      Campbell Live no longer either so between that and the Earthquake footage, justice seems a bit lacking.

                      It’s all about who you know (or pay) , these days.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      6 April 2018 at 12:09 pm

                      Nope – US has no jurisdiction where he was doing it.

        • cleangreen 3.1.2.3
          6 April 2018 at 9:21 am

          OAB,
          Is this a joke ?we don’t think it is a laughing matter because we now are left with generations of harm coming to visit our doors and yours OAB.

      • cleangreen 3.1.3
        6 April 2018 at 9:18 am

        Yes Ed

        We do need to jail them because of the crimes they willfully committed against us all and the harm they have placed on us all.

        I have had enough of their lies and deceit.

        Damn national to the dustbin of evil.

      • Bill 3.1.4
        6 April 2018 at 9:23 am

        Just quietly noting that the original comment suggests National should be hung up as guilty vandals and yet you guys (Solka and OAB) sling on the tired old boots to “go Ed” for suggesting a peoples court.

        Oh, and look! Another sub thread of possibly worthwhile interaction trashed.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.4.1
          6 April 2018 at 9:29 am

          What’s “worthwhile interaction” about promoting show-trials? The idea is offensive and repugnant, and if enough people jumped on board, would start a civil war, which the proponents would lose.

          It’s the same shitty rhetoric we see from the White House.

          • solkta 3.1.4.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 9:51 am

            It’s like for some people history just doesn’t exist so they come up with the same stupid ideas that lead to the likes of Stalinism. These people are far more an enemy of democracy than the likes of Key.

          • veutoviper 3.1.4.1.2
            6 April 2018 at 10:15 am

            I agree totally with you OAB (and Solka) re “worthwhile interactions” and promoting show trials – but the proponents of these here are just not worth giving any air to, OAB. They show themselves for what they are – and aren’t – as do their supporters and apologists. I know its hard (and as you well know I cannot help myself either from time to time!) but are they really worth raising your BP etc for? Nah.

            • cleangreen 3.1.4.1.2.1
              6 April 2018 at 4:33 pm

              National are the sweetest smelling army of democracy are they now?

              “Tommy rot” our forefathers would’ve said at this line of facility.

              National left us all stone broke, and now leaving us with two generations burdened will now slave to pay back our debts.

              So we have been delivered into servitude and economic slavery by your depicted heros such as Key ilk.

          • Bill 3.1.4.1.3
            6 April 2018 at 11:05 am

            Did you even read the comment from”Reason”?

            Ed’s comment merely echoed one small snippet of that comment. And you decided to turn that into a big stick to beat him about the head with. No thought or consideration whatsoever for any possible interaction that might have flowed from the original comment. Just “get Ed”

            I’m getting really tired of you trashing conversations on this site OAB. You don’t like what Ed says? Then stay away from him. It is not your role to decide who will and who will not comment on this site and it is not your role to police and harangue people.

            If you really can’t understand that and persist, there’s a solution at hand.

            As an aside. You do know that ordinary people administered courts of law in medieval times, and that they were very much not the “kangaroo” courts or platforms for “show trials” you imagine “people’s courts” to be?

            I guess not. And that you don’t care. Because “get Ed”. Which I won’t be seeing thoughtless or knee-jerk instances of any more, right?

            • solkta 3.1.4.1.3.1
              6 April 2018 at 11:24 am

              You do know that ordinary people administered courts of law in medieval times,

              Would that be the same ‘courts’ that burnt witches?

              But even if such a court were to work in a legal manner, what Ed is proposing would require a retrospective law to make what National MPs have done treason. That would totally fly in the face of the Principles of Natural Justice.

              We have a thousand years of struggle to build up the common law that we all enjoy the freedom of. Ed would do away with all that on his whim.

              • Bill …
                6 April 2018 at 11:54 am

                Would that be the same ‘courts’ that burnt witches?

                No. Your away in the wrong time period.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  6 April 2018 at 12:10 pm

                  The last time the term was used in Europe was somewhat more recently. Volksgericht, they were called, or perhaps народный суд.

            • Beatie 3.1.4.1.3.2
              6 April 2018 at 6:21 pm

              +100

            • reason 3.1.4.1.3.3
              8 April 2018 at 1:16 pm

              Thanks Bill …. I meant hung up as examples of failure …. name and shame.

              But I do think there could be charges brought … against ministers in particular …. eg a housing minister who deliberately makes decent housing harder for NZers to afford and get.

              Or for Health ministers who deliberately run down our public health service and actually make our hospitals dangerous and unhealthy …

              I’m not sure what their charter / contracts / obligations state …. but personal responsibility … by standing in front of a judge is the only thing I can think of which would have a big impact on their enacting blinkered ideological cluster fucks.

              Breath test the buggers for booze as well … If your pissed at work, it should be one warning with offer of help for substance abuse …. Second time boot them out.

              Reading Hansard convinced me Key was pissed in parliament a few times …. It’s when he got stupid and belligerent that gave his game away …. and that time when he couldn’t hammer a nail into soft pine.

        • Brigid 3.1.4.2
          6 April 2018 at 10:09 am

          You just cant appeal to the narcissist, or expect them to stand back and view their behaviour; their ego is as delicate as cut glass.

          They’re horrible people, but tragic.

        • solkta 3.1.4.3
          6 April 2018 at 10:16 am

          National should be hung up as guilty vandals

          I didn’t take this statement literally. Ed on the other hand clearly believes what he writes in favour of an authoritarian state.

      • Gosman 3.1.5
        6 April 2018 at 11:14 am

        What’s RNZ’s excuse then?

    • Gosman 3.2
      6 April 2018 at 11:07 am

      What was the change in inequality and poverty rates after 9 years of National?

      • reason 3.2.1
        6 April 2018 at 11:43 pm

        Surely you remember Paula Bennett laughing about the Nats not collecting or collating poverty statistics Gosman ???

        Thats what the worst sort of people do ….

        A simple stat for a simple troll like yourself ….. Is home ownership rates declined …. for everyone but the top 10% …. what do you make of that Gosman ???.

        I’ll drip feed you one item of their failure daily if you like.

        For you I’ll try to concentrate on John Keys work …. there’s a lot of his rot to cut out …

        • Gosman 3.2.1.1
          7 April 2018 at 3:43 am

          The statistics you mention were never not collected.

          • reason 3.2.1.1.1
            8 April 2018 at 12:24 pm

            … Well Gosman could you please explain Paula Bennett laughing in glee about not measuring poverty ….

            Did she can it ????

            Is she laughing because she has it and won’t release it ??

            Does she find the fact that the hidden number of people living in sub standard housing or Garages .. or cars … a funny inside national joke ??.

            Or is she just the worst sort of MP ….. stupid and malicious.

            And She was a rabid pusher of the $50,000,000 ‘P contamination’ / evictions scam … as debunked by Massey University applied environmental chemist Dr Nick Kim

            Jesus she was bad …..

  4. Sanctuary 4
    6 April 2018 at 8:07 am

    WTF is going on with our co-called “impartial” civil service?

    We’ve had Iain Lees-Galloway being blindsided by racial profiling introduced under the previous government.

    We have seen Shane Jones undermined by government officials who went out of their way to provide contradictory emails to the media.

    We’ve got a National party crony in charge of RNZ in open rebellion against the new governments broadcasting policy.

    We’ve had DHBs failing to disclose rotting building and run down infrastructure to the minister.

    We’ve got officials delaying the release of a report to the minister that is critical of them and adding to the disaster of the mycoplasma bovis outbreak.

    It seems the politically appointed National party cronies who make up the leadership of our so-called impartial civil service were donkey deep in collusion with the previous national government to delay, deny, and dissemble the gathering of information detailing the neglect and dysfunction of our state services.

    A full clean out senior management in our civil service is now a requirement of any new incoming government.

    • cleangreen 4.1
      6 April 2018 at 9:24 am

      100% sanctuary.

      Labour need to get real now as the civil service are now full of National sympathisers as national Party ‘sleeper cells’.

      • Gosman 4.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 11:11 am

        Nothing a good old fashioned left wing purge wouldn’t fix eh? 🙂

        • Stuart Munro 4.1.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 11:18 am

          If it’s good enough for Key to purge Campbell it’s good enough for the Left to restore balance.

          • Gosman 4.1.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 11:31 am

            Except if we are to believe the left’s narrative in relation to John Campbell his dismissal from TV3 came about as a result of pressure applied by business people behind the scenes. How will the leftist inspired purge be achieved without this path open to them?

            • Stuart Munro 4.1.1.1.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 11:41 am

              I like the witch’s trial myself.

              Good rightwingers float: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw

              • mac1 …
                6 April 2018 at 3:27 pm

                The other way round, Stuart Munro.

                The good ones sink and the bad ones float. Like wood.

                “Ordeal by water was associated with the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries: an accused who sank was considered innocent, while floating indicated witchcraft. Some argued that witches floated because they had renounced baptism when entering the Devil’s service”.

                Whatever, good or bad, they were got rid of- aka “damned if you do and damned if you don’t.”

                • Stuart Munro …
                  6 April 2018 at 3:50 pm

                  Hmmm…

                  My reasoning was that relatively few rightwingers would prove lighter than ducks. The rest could not be burnt of course – they’ve contributed enough to global warming already – but might make a positive contribution to saving the Siberian tiger or the great white man-eating shark.

    • savenz 4.2
      6 April 2018 at 9:31 am

      +1 Sanctuary – since Rogernomics the public system has been purged of anyone who does not agree with the strategy. And the civil service advice the governments and prepare the reports for government – it’s absolute bias.

      Also how they get data is flawed. Take the census, someone was saying their partner who is Asian filled out the census, first they threw it out because it had to the occupier and they throw out all rubbish like that, then they wrote they were European, no job, no income and no assets. They live and control a multimillion dollar real estate portfolio in a trust (obviously not mentioned).

      Essentially no answers will be coming out about what is truely happening in this country with the bureaucrats in charge because it seems to be collected by people who thinks everyone wants to give out their personal information, can understand the questions and will answer them honestly or correctly . Big assumption from the government and official yokels who lost control a while ago and don’t understand why nothing seems to be working any more when the data says it should.

      • alwyn 4.2.1
        6 April 2018 at 4:13 pm

        Don’t worry about the Census.
        I suspect they might have to do it all over again if they want to get any sensible numbers. Look for some quiet little retirements from Stats. The Minister should go too for allowing it to happen. Why didn’t he look after the only significant thing he was in charge of rather than having a jaunt to Paris?

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 4:50 pm

          I suspect they might have to do it all over again if they want to get any sensible numbers.

          They won’t. If polls of a thousand are reasonably accurate then one with over 4 million in it will be more so.

          The Minister should go too for allowing it to happen. Why didn’t he look after the only significant thing he was in charge of rather than having a jaunt to Paris?

          I suspect that you’ll find that the planning for the census started a few years before the new minister got the job. This isn’t something you plan over night.

          I also suspect you knew that.

          • alwyn 4.2.1.1.1
            7 April 2018 at 10:08 am

            Of course the planning started years before hand. It appears that the main reason for the shambles is that they didn’t prepare for the huge number of people who either didn’t get a code number or who, if the did didn’t have access to or the ability to use a computer to answer the thing.
            Advertising was also just about non-existent and it was well nigh impossible to get through to the people behind the system even if you knew the Census was on at all,
            I know someone, now in her early eighties, who didn’t get a code and wasn’t even aware that the Census was on. Then, when she found out about it and did try and get a form she couldn’t find out how to contact them. I don’t think she has, or will, ever fill one out.
            It was the advertising and organisation to get the forms and codes out that was lacking. There also hasn’t been any proper plan to do the follow up. Shaw should have questioned them on that. He didn’t, the Census is a mess.
            You appear to think that a sample is sufficient. Are you aware that it is the Census data that sets the Electorate Boundaries, and enables the preparation of a Maori Seat Roll? Just how would a sample let you do that?

            No, you can try and pin it on the previous Government. They weren’t there in the last four months when all the fine details on handling the probable shortfall in on-line data collection should have been sorted out.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1.1.1
              7 April 2018 at 7:31 pm

              Of course the planning started years before hand. It appears that the main reason for the shambles is that they didn’t prepare for the huge number of people who either didn’t get a code number or who, if the did didn’t have access to or the ability to use a computer to answer the thing.

              Wrong.

              As I said, I was on the Census Helpdesk so, yes, we did processes in place.

              It was the advertising and organisation to get the forms and codes out that was lacking.

              And how would you do any better?

              The advertising was across social media, radio, TV and newspapers. If people aren’t looking at any of those then how do you suggest Stats to contact them, to inform them that a census is on?

              There also hasn’t been any proper plan to do the follow up.

              Wrong.

              The census will be completed over several weeks as the follow up is done.

              Just how would a sample let you do that?

              It’s not a sample, it’s more than 90% of the population. Enough that algorithms can do the rest within reasonable margins of error.

              No, you can try and pin it on the previous Government. They weren’t there in the last four months when all the fine details on handling the probable shortfall in on-line data collection should have been sorted out.

              All the planning would have been done under the previous government. The new government wouldn’t have even had time to question what was already happening.

              If you want to point fingers of blame then point them at National. Personally, I’d just put it down to inexperience in the new way, learn from the mistakes and do better next time.

              • alwyn …
                7 April 2018 at 8:56 pm

                You claim to be involved and therefore you should be able to answer this.
                You state that
                “The census will be completed over several weeks as the follow up is done”.
                Right then.
                It is now more than 4 weeks since Census day. After about 3 weeks there was a Press statement that 3.5 million people had been recorded I think it was 3.2 million on line and 300,000 forms.
                We have had the several weeks which was supposed to complete it.
                What is the current number? If less than “complete” when will it be complete?
                I’m not going to blame you, if you were only on a Help-Desk. However it has still been a stuff-up and the people responsible should he held responsible.
                Or is there no responsibility accepted by a Government and a Public Service?

                • Incognito …
                  7 April 2018 at 9:54 pm

                  Alwyn, in the last election about one million people did not vote. This is unacceptable and the people responsible should he held responsible. Who were responsible?

                  Yes, I know, Alwyn, voting is not compulsory in NZ but enrolling is and as at 31 March 2018 296,476 eligible people have/are not enrolled. This is unacceptable and the people responsible should he held responsible. Who are responsible?

                  Surprise me, Alwyn.

                  • alwyn …
                    7 April 2018 at 10:08 pm

                    Yawn.
                    If you can’t answer the question you just change the subject.
                    1. As you say voting is not compulsory in this country so your first question is totally irrelevant. Why on earth should it be “unacceptable” not to vote anyway. That is only your somewhat strange opinion.
                    2. Purely the people themselves. There aren’t any Public Servants charged with the duty of making sure that everyone is enrolled so it can only be the individual (prospective) voter.

                    Neither case is comparable to the Census where there are Public Servants, and a Minister, who ARE responsible for the counting of every person present in the country. If a reasonable percentage of the population (generally accepted as being about 98%) aren’t recorded they have failed.

                    I doubt if logic is going to have any effect on your opinions of course.

        • savenz 4.2.1.2
          6 April 2018 at 5:21 pm

          I’m just waiting for the new stats,

          NZ is 90% Pakeha, we all live in a mansion with a conservatory apart from if you are a Pakeha renter and then your house is covered in more mould than the children ward at Middlemore.

          All those workers living 10 people to a room will be actively filling in the forms. sarcasm – no doubt we will find out nothing to see here, we don’t have an out of control situation with our population growth, especially in Auckland.

      • solkta 4.2.2
        6 April 2018 at 4:25 pm

        That’s right, we should have storm troopers to go one house at a time and check on all this bogus information. Better still, randomly one house at a time with accountants in tow.

        • savenz 4.2.2.1
          6 April 2018 at 5:22 pm

          Yes because I was defiantly suggesting that. LOL. You have such an active imagination, Solkta but maybe put your suggestions under your own name instead of making up other peoples as your comment.

          • solkta 4.2.2.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 5:46 pm

            So what were you suggesting then? Or were you just having a whinge for the sake of it?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.2.3
        6 April 2018 at 4:48 pm

        Also how they get data is flawed. Take the census, someone was saying their partner who is Asian filled out the census, first they threw it out because it had to the occupier and they throw out all rubbish like that, then they wrote they were European, no job, no income and no assets. They live and control a multimillion dollar real estate portfolio in a trust (obviously not mentioned).

        Which is, of course, a crime.

        Glad to see that you’re such an idiot as to support criminal actions – Just like National.

        Essentially no answers will be coming out about what is truely happening in this country with the bureaucrats in charge because it seems to be collected by people who thinks everyone wants to give out their personal information, can understand the questions and will answer them honestly or correctly .

        Most people will answer, will answer honestly and will understand the questions. The people who lie will most like be found out as they’ll be outliers and the algorithms will pick them up.

        Big assumption from the government and official yokels who lost control a while ago and don’t understand why nothing seems to be working any more when the data says it should.

        Well, we have people like you who support criminal actions about people lying on their census forms but the problem isn’t really the data. As I say, most people will answer honestly.

        The problem is the neo-liberal ideology.

        • savenz 4.2.3.1
          6 April 2018 at 5:24 pm

          Good luck their Draco!

          If a person can’t read English do you really think they will be filling out the census accurately or at all?

          Or if you are displaced they will get everyone?

          • McFlock 4.2.3.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 5:46 pm

            And how are those obstacles different from any census, ever?

            Census coverages are never 100% perfect (97% in 2013). But they’re the best idea anyone’s come up with to describing a population and its needs.

            • alwyn 4.2.3.1.1.1
              7 April 2018 at 10:15 am

              If you choose to round the number why don’t you do it honestly?
              Either report it as 97.6% or round it honestly to 98%.
              Willing to bet that, instead of being about the normal 98% it will be, after about 3 months from Census day, in the low 90’s? Say less that 93%?
              And do you think they will ever announce it?

              • McFlock …
                7 April 2018 at 8:03 pm

                Of course they will announce the result of the post-enumeration survey. No, I don’t know what the result will be.

                But I am pretty confident of two things: if the result were not announced, you lot would move heaven and earth to get it announced; and if the calculated undercount is below 2 or 3% you won’t be issuing an apology for your constant allegations that the entire thing has been a cockup.

                But I guess that’s sort of fair, because if the undercount actually turns out to be significant I’d probably still think your wanking on the issue was more about your soulless desire to corrode and abrade the support of the government by any means necessary, rather than any desire you have for reliable statistical information about the population of NZ.

                • alwyn …
                  7 April 2018 at 8:43 pm

                  Wow. You certainly have a vivid imagination, don’t you?
                  Out of curiosity what would it take to get you to accept that Ardern is not the reincarnation of The Virgin Mary?

                  • McFlock …
                    7 April 2018 at 9:30 pm

                    Wow. Not even my vivid imagination came up with that bullshit. I yield to the corrosive leech in the blue corner.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.2.3.1.2
            6 April 2018 at 6:56 pm

            If a person can’t read English do you really think they will be filling out the census accurately or at all?

            Yes I do because there’s help available them to do so.

            Or if you are displaced they will get everyone?

            They will get most people as McFlock points out.

            Really, you just come across as an ignoramus trying to invent excuses as to this one won’t work.

    • Anne 4.3
      6 April 2018 at 9:40 am

      The so-called impartial public service hasn’t existed for decades if it ever did exist. As a former public servant I can attest to that. In 1990 I had a superior say to me… my lack of promotion was all my own fault because I joined the Labour Party in the 1970s. I was too cowered to respond. I wasn’t even a member of any political party at the time but that apparently counted for nothing.

      The treatment of me still sticks in my throat but the bosses were able to get away with it because there was nowhere employees could go for help. The PSA was next to useless… but to be fair to them they were still emerging shell-shocked after years of abuse by Rob Muldoon. In fact he set the culture of bullying and abuse inside the public service by personal example.

      The flood gates of politicisation of the public service was made easy by the creation of SOEs and corporations which began in the 1980s and continues to this day.

      This new government has an opportunity to clean it out once and for all.

      • veutoviper 4.3.1
        6 April 2018 at 11:01 am

        Good summary, Anne. It was certainly my experience that since the mid 1980s there has a major change with the “corporatisation” of the public service with the private sector as the model and the loss of understanding that the public service is, and should be, a very different beast as its goals are/should be very different.

        But re your comment as to whether an impartial public service ever did exist, I also grew up as the daughter of a long serving public servant (in sensitive areas) and was well drilled in the ethics of the impartial and confidential public servant well before reaching adulthood due to the nature of my father’s work, overseas postings etc; and I do think that a much more impartial public service did exist prior to the 1980’s.

        By that I mean politically impartial. There were certainly a lot of ‘partiality’ in respect of gender, race, religion, including protestant/catholic etc and other forms of inequality, and sometimes this varied from department to department. (Alcoholism also seem rife at the very top levels of the PS when I first started work in the early 1970s – but that is a whole different subject!)

        My perceptions over the years was that the politicization of the PS was much more evident and progressive during National governments than Labour ones, with National governments/MPs much less willing to trust or respect public servants and their advice. English was an example of this.

        But how you clean this out and turn around this behemoth in a short period of time is mind blowing – requiring a lot of shifting of mindsets as well as people and practices.

        The only good thing is that my impressions/experience was also that some Nat people in high level PS positions were good at reading the wind and tended to remove themselves quietly to positions in the private sector or overseas etc when Labour govts came in. LOL.

    • Gosman 4.4
      6 April 2018 at 11:10 am

      You mean the Public service is telling the truth while people like Shane Jones tells porkies.

      • Keepcalmcarryon 4.4.1
        6 April 2018 at 12:53 pm

        How notable that the right is now the defender of the public service.

        • Gosman 4.4.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 2:51 pm

          Well someone’s got to do it since Labour and NZ First have abandoned them.

          • Keepcalmcarryon 4.4.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 5:57 pm

            And all the other wage earners.
            Maybe National could remember them too.

      • cleangreen 4.4.2
        6 April 2018 at 4:36 pm

        Gosman you really are a classic aren’t you, – do you think National never told any lies then?

    • OnceWasTim 4.5
      6 April 2018 at 2:34 pm

      Hello @ Sanctuary, AND @ SaveNZ and @Anne (below), and probably a few others. YES @ Anne, this cronyism, or whatever you want to call it has been going on for years, and as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I think I recall you having had an employment dispute of some sort in the past.
      The big difference is that in those ‘olden days’ there was actually a lot more accountability – such that if a senior PS had majorly fucked up, they’d have the good grace to resign (or agree to a Peter Principle shunt sideways)
      Now, not only can they fuckup, but they don’t actually fear any sort of admonishment, and nor do they have any sort of sanction. They are corporate ‘masters of the Universe. They can even leave with a big severance payout – that is of course, unless they end up at Madge’s pleasure and they get bitten by karma.

      In this latest case …. probably seen as some sort of ‘incident’, it is quite unbelievable that a senior PS thought it OK to begin such a data mining programme without consulting his Minister (and YES ….. ‘his’), then failed to see it as relevant in Ministerial Briefing to his Minister in the incoming government, THEN to drip feed the details of its use and extent.
      I’m currently reading through the briefing to the ‘incoming Minister for Immigration’
      (and as a former PS, I can gloss over the wesel words and spin, and the Sir Humphrey shit). I hope Iain Lees-Galloway is equally as equipped – especially after having been told of his knowledge of the horrific stories he was aware of and which he conveyed to a close relative at that little Martinborough post-election soiree)

      I’m halfway through it, and sure as shit, I hope I L-G has the nouse to ask ‘his officials’ certain questions in some detail.
      And I wonder what tomorrow might bring. Initially this demographic profiling was innocuous enough (apparently), and only a ‘pilot’ or test. Then we learn it has actually already been used to round up people to deport (which kind of fits with certain raids I’m aware of, and the agencies involved, and the methods used. It also fits with the idea that certain ethnic groups felt they were being targeted).
      The briefing ALSO tells the incoming Minister of the M5 data sharing (Australia, Canada, UK, US, NZ).
      WHO has this ‘test/pilot’ data been shared with?,
      AND what other purpose has this data been used for?
      Has it already been used as the basis for processing VISA applications? because IF it has, that could (POSSIBLY) explain some of the Ministry’s determinations.
      (otherwise some of those determinations would have to be put down to the use of inexperienced contractors, staff biases, nudge nudges and wink winks, or just general incompetence).

  5. adam 5
    6 April 2018 at 9:18 am

    On the good news front.

    https://libcom.org/news/oklahoma-kentucky-tens-thousands-strike-03042018

    Seems that these women have had enough, then the Governor decided to call them teenages who just wanted a nicer car.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/381781-oklahoma-teachers-jingle-keys-chant-wheres-my-car-at-governor

  6. Carolyn_Nth 6
    6 April 2018 at 9:52 am

    Wayne Hope’s posts over at the Daily Blog are always worth a read on media and comms matters. His latest argues that Cambridge Analytica-FB style manipulations undermine democracy and could happen here.

    This is basically because basically FB et al operate outside NZ legal jurisdiction. They could intervene in elections and politics in ways illegal here, but which our laws cannot touch.

    What we have here is the poisoning of electoral democracy on an industrial scale.

    So, could this happen here? Absolutely it could. Facebook is our most popular online destination after Google Search. Over two million New Zealanders check Facebook daily and its attractiveness for advertisers is growing rapidly.

    Under MMP our small voting public effectively constitutes a single manipulable seat. The psychographic dispositions of swing voters could be identified , targeted and manipulated without difficulty.

    • David Mac 6.1
      6 April 2018 at 11:05 am

      This is an area that fascinates me Carolyn, it lends itself to ‘What if’s’

      I can’t decide where I stand with the essence of it. On one hand it’s merely the increasing sophistication of marketing and on the other…I keep thinking there’s someone standing behind me.

      Marketers can zero in on the individual like never before. How far will it go? Could I have 4 new fridges on my Trademe watchlist and get an out of the blue call from a sweet talking white-goods salesperson at Harvey Leemings? Before ringing they would know what I’m after, how much I want to pay etc.

      With politics, The question is becoming: Do we allow election campaigners access to all of the marketing options available to the open market?

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 3:17 pm

        Should we even allow marketers and advertisers access to all the tools presently available and soon to come?

        They are, after all, nothing but pure manipulation.

        • David Mac 6.1.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 7:21 pm

          Yes, manipulation Draco…or timely persuasion.

          I think it will require some sort of legislation to rein it in at some stage. Nearly all of us leave an electronic footprint that says heaps about who we are, what we like, what we are for and against.

          Just as an algorithm could create the ‘Buy this X’ ad most likely to prompt me into action a similar system could produce the ‘Vote for Joe’ ad to present to me that has the best chance of working. I might be the only person that sees the exact ad as made to target my personal sentiments…. Few ads would headline with ‘Faults and all, Joe’s a good bastard most of the time.’

          Manipulation, yeah, that’s always been the job of marketing. The VW Beetle only got traction in the US when some Madison Ave creatives sold it to them. Manipulated Americans into the ugly little German car in their millions.

          On the current trajectory I think at some point persuasion will become creepy stalking. We’ll need to decide where we want those lines drawn. A moral dilemma. Sometimes it’s best to leave the technology on the shelf. We have the where-with-all to create gene perfect clones but I wouldn’t wish 2 of me upon you Draco.

          • David Mac 6.1.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 7:54 pm

            That US Beetle advertising campaign is sector folklore.

            The persuasion potential of a simple idea. I thought this ad from the campaign was genius. A solution for those many Americans in the early 60’s that had to cope with a bit of snow but didn’t want one of the dog to drive SUVs of the era.

  7. Pat 7
    6 April 2018 at 9:52 am

    “Some businesses and households will hold the view that adapting industrial and social practices too suddenly will present a substantial risk.

    I understand that thinking, but would argue that the greater risk – commercially, financially and certainly environmentally – lies in inaction.

    Change is coming.”

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/93043/westpacs-karen-silk-argues-new-zealands-government-and-businesses-including

    Not Labour, not the Greens or even Greenpeace…the banking industry!…that bastion of radicalism.

    • weka 7.1
      6 April 2018 at 10:39 am

      That’s a good sign. How we change is going to be important and it shouldn’t be left up to those captains of whatever. We need to be ready to have influence in what change we do.

      • Pat 7.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 7:00 pm

        or maybe a not so good sign….if even the bankers can see the future problems and are publicly speaking about them what does that say about their confidence in the public and political response?

  8. Gosman 8
    6 April 2018 at 10:39 am

    What happened to the peak oil Casandra’s?

    http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/update-2-bahrain-says-new-discovery-contains-an-estimated-80-bln-barrels-of-tight-oil

    Not that I’m suggesting they should be exploited (Climate change yadda yadda) but they could be.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2
      6 April 2018 at 3:13 pm

      Absolutely meaningless.

      You need a comparison about how much oil is being used against how much is being discovered.

      But to eliminate Peak Oil we need to be discovering, and bringing on line, 100m barrels per day. That is not what is happening:

      New discoveries have fallen every year since 2014, when oversupply triggered an oil crash that cut its price by more than half. The plunge forced many upstream oil producers to reduce their spending, and helps explain why discoveries are also down.

      But that’s not the only reason: explorers are finding less oil resources per field, according to Rystad. An average offshore discovery held about 100 million barrels of oil equivalent (boe) in 2017, down from 150 million boe in 2012.

      The last time oil and gas companies added to their reserves by as much as they were producing was in 2006, when the so-called reserve replacement ratio reached 100%. It was down to 50% in 2012, and 11% in 2017.

      As per normal for a RWNJ – your ignorance comes through loud and clear.

      BTW: We’re presently using 100 million barrels per day. That means that that field, if it could supply 100m barrels per day, would last 800 days – a little over two years.

      And it’s even more complicated: Why the Standard Model of Future Energy Supply Doesn’t Work

      Yep, we’re still heading for collapse.

    • weka 8.3
      6 April 2018 at 3:25 pm

      “What happened to the peak oil Casandra’s?”

      They adjusted their timeframes esp once they understood that Climate Change was happening much sooner than expected.

      But I think what you mean is to do is push the silly notion that Peak Oil is about running out of oil. It’s not, and I’m fairly certain you know this (have had it explained to you before).

    • mauī 8.4
      6 April 2018 at 9:14 pm

      Shale oil is crap anyway. This article gives an indication that the recoverable oil will only be in the region of 5%, so that’s 4 billion barrels.

      https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/04/bahrain-has-its-largest-oil-and-gas-find-at-80-billion-barrels-of-shale-oil.html

      Also shale oil is technically difficult to get out of the ground and expensive, i.e drilling horizontally. That cost will be passed on. If this new oil field was valuable it would have been found decades ago because it would of been cheap and easy to get at and therefore lots of profit in it. The fact global oil finds are reducing year on year is not a good sign for the industry. Of course we should expect that the announcement of finding a large amount of dregs gets the media all excited though. It means they can tell the world nothing is changing.

  9. indiana 9
    6 April 2018 at 11:04 am

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pie

    I have to admit I do find his videos amusing, especially this one on the Gender Pay Gap
    https://youtu.be/J7GWHgVZJQU

  10. Enough is Enough 10
    6 April 2018 at 12:02 pm

    Some people have been calling the Waikato expressway a White Elephant.

    The extension south has been cancelled by the new government.

    In the same week that is cancelled this happens on that same stretch of road.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102835511/Fatal-crash-closes-highway-at-Karapiro

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1
      6 April 2018 at 2:26 pm

      Coincidence is not an argument.

      • Enough is Enough 10.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 2:49 pm

        The Waikato has the deadliest roads in the country by quite a margin.

        https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/road-deaths/toll.html

        We have more than a death a week on Waikato roads. It is therefore not a coincidence that this accident happened in the same week that the government announced it would divert funds from fixing these killer roads, to creating a 20th century tram system in Auckland.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 3:15 pm

          Something like 95% of a car crash is due to driver error.

          • Enough is Enough 10.1.1.1.1
            6 April 2018 at 3:26 pm

            Yep – and a central concrete median between the two lanes will prevent that driver error causing a head on crash and the the death of someone driving in the opposite direction.

            • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.1.1
              6 April 2018 at 3:30 pm

              And a train would remove it altogether while being cheaper.

              • Enough is Enough …
                6 April 2018 at 3:39 pm

                Agreed

                No-one is proposing a train from Taupo to Auckland though.

                They are just taking the funds that were allocated for that region and redirecting them to Auckland.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  6 April 2018 at 4:30 pm

                  They are just taking the funds that were allocated for that region and redirecting them to Auckland.

                  [Citation Needed]

        • cleangreen 10.1.1.2
          6 April 2018 at 4:45 pm

          Enough is enough,

          You should come aboard the rail in Waikato as a train track was engineered through your patch just to take the freight so think about that now that the “National Party hidden rail study “The Value of rail in NZ” – by Ernest Young for NZTA/Kiwirail.

          This was hidden by National for 18 months and now discovered by Labour, and has proven rail is viable and saves us $1.3 billion each year so look at the document and get wise.

          http://www.kiwirail.co.nz/uploads/Publications/The%20Value%20of%20the%20Rail%20in%20New%20Zealand.pdf

          Have some good reading.

  11. Whispering Kate 11
    6 April 2018 at 2:20 pm

    The vast majority ofNZ drivers cannot be trusted with good judgment on our highways, they are like children and need to be looked after and guided, like fencing off pools. Our highways should be separated by barriers the length and breath of the country. We have no patience and are like children and do things before thinking. Our drivers display a lack of courtesy, tail gate aggressively and are menacing. Its like the wild west when you get out on the roads.

    Sheer volume of traffic everywhere in the past 10 years means that there is a huge chance of you having a head on anywhere when overtaking. Many times we see traffic crashes in the media and yellow lines are right there – its self explanatory we cannot be trusted to be considerate drivers.

    As for the expressway I do not think it is a white elephant, at least people can now travel that road where it has barriers and know they won’t end up in the Waikato River or under a car or truck. It used to be terrible and many times we would divert and go through Ohinewai on our way to Hawkes Bay to avoid the busy road – the Government should finish the highway – it will save lives.

    • Keepcalmcarryon 11.1
      6 April 2018 at 3:04 pm

      Speak for yourself whispering Kate.
      How many kms do you do on the open road?
      We need less armchair traffic cops, better roads, less heavy freight on roads and better control of tourist drivers in the south.
      Most of the country isn’t downtown Auckland BTW.

      • Whispering Kate 11.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 3:47 pm

        I travel enough to know that I witness many countless stupid idiots who endanger people’s lives and to me they many times look like local people, in utes, SUV’s, tradie vans, all hogging the roads and making life a misery for drivers who drive defensively. And, by the way I am no slow coach on the road but I know to keep on my side of the road and not up the backside of the driver in front of me. Bye the way I also drive to the conditions, it beggars belief in foul wet weather how some road users drive so recklessly. Selfish buggers that’s what they are.

        Drive in some provincial towns in NZ and you take your life in your own hands, there but for the grace of God sometimes as you drive through them – don’t always blame Auckland – you obviously think you are a good driver, well you can think it.

        • Keepcalmcarryon 11.1.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 6:04 pm

          Actually WK and Carolyn below there is a minority of dangerous drivers on the road but a majority of selfish drivers.
          Interesting that it is YOU who claimed to be the good driver and everyone else were children, arrogant, ignorant or bullies to be told what to do- you entirely sum up the arrogance of a number of kiwi drivers.
          🙂

      • Carolyn_Nth 11.1.2
        6 April 2018 at 4:05 pm

        We should not have to give over the roads to the bullies, and the arrogant who over estimate their driving skills.

        I do more Ks on the open road than I do in Auckland. Most drivers are courteous. Most drivers do above the speed limit. That makes it hard when I’m in a work car with GPS tracking. I try to stick to the speed limit, but the pressure is always to go a lot faster. Whatever the limit, there’s always those who do much faster.

        And, as WK says, many drivers don’t drive to the conditions.

        It is not necessary to speed everywhere. It’s as much an addiction as a need.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    6 April 2018 at 2:25 pm

    From this thread:

    The question is not Auckland’s “poor” be stung by the fuel taxes, it is the poor being stung by sitting in worsening traffic (burning more fuel) by inaction and thumb twiddling as National would like us to do and have done since the 60s

    That comment is based upon this research:

    Ultimately, the change in accessibility caused by the CRL appears to be positively correlated with prevailing socioeconomic deprivation, with a statistically significant effect across a range of travel-time values. It seems clear the accessibility benefits of the CRL are distributed in such a way that they favour the less well-off.

    Well designed public transport is better for those less well off than cars.

    But that should be expected as it has far better economies of scale.

  13. veutoviper 13
    6 April 2018 at 3:09 pm

    As it is 3pm on Friday, the sun is shining, its not raining or cold, and we all need a uplifting, heartwarming interlude from time to time, here is a wonderful short conversation between John Campbell and Sophie Pascoe’s Nana recorded on Wednesday before Sophie carried the NZ flag and led the NZ team into the Commonwealth Games.

    Nana was the best in keeping Sophie’s big secret! If you haven’t heard this, you must!

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018639046/sophie-pascoe-s-nana-kept-flag-bearer-secret

  14. OnceWasTim 14
    6 April 2018 at 3:17 pm

    @VV… yes we do. Have look at 4.5 (above tho’)
    Even though there’s a panel to the right … it’s often the case that people debating each other miss responses if they’re not around in the same time bracket …. and in your case I missed including you entirely.
    It relates to your observations re the current state of the PS initiated by @ Sanctuary
    (just like the 4th E, a bloody sorry state at that)

  15. ianmac 15
    6 April 2018 at 4:19 pm

    Is Richard a man of honour or just waiting for the right moment?

    RNZ board chairman Richard Griffin says he’s “not interested” in releasing a voicemail broadcasting minister Clare Curran left on his phone, despite MPs formally requesting it.

    The voicemail, left last Thursday by the embattled minister, was the latest piece of evidence in the evolving saga which had seen Carol Hirschfeld resign as the broadcaster’s head of content and Curran apologise to the prime minister.

    It was formally requested by a select committee, who could ask the Speaker to legally demand it if they were refused. …..
    …Griffin wouldn’t comment on whether or not the message was deleted, saying that was immaterial. It’s understood that the message had been deleted and there was now work underway to recover it.
    …I think the issue has come to an end as far as I’m concerned,” he said.

    “It’s my recording and I’m not too interested in handing it over. I’m not too interested in this continuing and it’s become a farce.

    “I really find the whole thing quite distressful.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102877903/rnz-chair-richard-griffin-not-interested-in-releasing-clare-curran-voicemail

    • Anne 15.1
      6 April 2018 at 5:10 pm

      Hello ianmac, I was about to link to the same item. Interesting isn’t it. My reaction: he doesn’t want anyone to hear it because it’s not as cut and dried as he claimed yesterday. In other words, the language and tone suggest the message could be interpreted both ways – his way or Clare Curran’s way.

      On the other hand Griffin comes across to me as a good actor. He is capable of working the story for all its worth until finally capitulating… then sitting back and watching the fallout.

      If I’m wrong I will happily apologise.

      • ianmac 15.1.1
        6 April 2018 at 5:44 pm

        No doubt he will coordinate with Miss Lee to time a release if it will damage Curran. or never release it if it is innocent but thus leaving a poisonous doubt.

        Or he might be an honest man who as he says, he is fed up with the “farce.” Hope he is.

        • Anne 15.1.1.1
          6 April 2018 at 6:38 pm

          Yes ianmac. I agree it could be the latter. He’s been around the traps for many years and has seen this sort of crap time and again. It’s possible he’s telling the truth when he says he’s fed up with the farce because “farce” it certainly is.

          It beggars belief that the MSM in all its guises should spend so much time on the prattlings of a couple of Nat yuppies… I refer to Simon Bridges and Melissa Lee.

          • Gosman 15.1.1.1.1
            7 April 2018 at 3:48 am

            All the more reason for Curran NOT to have called in the first place. She really is a numpty.

          • veutoviper 15.1.1.1.2
            7 April 2018 at 6:18 am

            Sorry, from my knowledge and firsthand experience of Griff, he will be loving what is happening. It is the going out with a bang that he was hoping for. He loves the limelight and controversy. He may be calling it a farce, but he is usually the one who has instigated this type of crap, and will play it for all it is worth, as you suggested earlier. Curran being away allows him to drag the voicemail element out, leaving people in suspense. It remains to be seen whether or not,he does or does not release it. IMO I don’t think he will really care whether he wins or loses. It is the game, the theatre, being in the limelight for probably the last time that counts, no matter what he says about farces, being fed up etc. He has used that line before.

            It’s the Interval. We await the next Act.

  16. Jenny 16
    7 April 2018 at 6:08 am

    Yaeji

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