Open Mike 13/05/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 13th, 2018 - 194 comments
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194 comments on “Open Mike 13/05/2018”

  1. greg 1

    i don’t think the farms should get compensation for the infected cows
    after the interview on the nation its an own goal by the farmers transferring animals to evade, tax over stocking polluting the water ways ,stealing water ,expecting tax payer to pay for there green house gases voting national and lets remember the 2 billion dollars they got for south Canterbury finance and most of the proceeds of the asset sales. and they want a bailout let them drown in there own mess. just like other nacts personnel responsibility and poor life choices doesn’t apply.

    • bwaghorn 1.1

      Kind of the same argument people use about people getting benefits. It’s their own fault etc.
      What about the fully compliant farmer who’s cows caught mpb any way .

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

        Farmers must have known NAIT wasn’t being fully supported by the industry; if they allowed that, why would they receive compensation when disease broke out? It’s like not insuring the house that burned down.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1

          So those poor people who didn’t insure there houses in ch ch got what they deserved using your rational

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1

            You’re not using my rationale at all, you’re using yours. In any case, what farmers “got” was Mycoplasma bovis. Whether they get compensation is another matter. What the industry should have done, is ensure the spread of disease couldn’t happen through untraceable stock movements and it didn’t ensure that, through non-compliant members of industry and a National Government that failed to ensure that compliance.

            • Matiri 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Even the farmers who tried to be fully compliant (like us) with NAIT were let down by the non-compliant farmers they sent or received animals from. Damien O’Connor talks about 70% non-compliance. 70%! One of those farmers has stock currently being tested for M. Bovis and is being forced by MPI to update NAIT records going back two years.

              • Robert Guyton

                Why didn’t the National Government, friend of the farmers, press for total compliance to NAIT when they had the farmers on side? Did they “go easy” on the farming industry because that’s what’s needed to keep farmers voting blue? It would seem so. They must have gambled on “nothing serious arising” while the NAIT gates were down. Didn’t work out that way though. Mycoplasma bovis revealed a hole a mile wide.

                • greywarshark

                  The problem with NZ farmers spokespersons is that they are too fond of saying how efficient they are and modern. Talking the talk all the time. The latest thing is being able to trace the animal, farm to the table, and I suppose they made a half-hearted show at adopting that system with NAIT with the usual sly she’ll be right approach that NZ men adopt when there is no one in charge who is determined to enforce rules.

                  That is where the problem lies. Not bothering to live up to the high standard of management they were broadcasting. If NAIT
                  had been properly administered they would have coped well and quickly. Even better they would have made sure that the disease couldn’t be imported from australia. Remember the fuss about our apples couldn’t be exported there because they might introduce fireblight over to The Lucky Country. Then when a NZ scientist found some there in a park garden NZ was accused of having ‘planted’ it there. What is the bet that the MB came from Australia and hadn’t passed proper vet tests, or that we didn’t even bother asking for them; MPI, MoBIE or whichever bunch of cowboys are the wellpaid experts responsible?

                  But just like 100% pure in tourism, NZ shits itself in the foot again.
                  ‘All mouth and no trousers’ as the saying goes.

                  Blustering and boastful, showing off without having the qualities to justify it. There is a suggestion that this is a corruption of a more logical, but rarely heard expression, ‘all mouth and no trousers’. meaning full of talk but deficient in the sexual area.
                  All mouth and no trousers – phrase meaning and origin
                  https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/511.html

              • Tracey

                As a former lawyer each year I had to pay a few grand to practice and part of that fee went to a fidelity fund to compensate people ripped off by rogue lawyers.

                I never ripped off a single client but had to pay for those who did. Can you explain how this is different?

            • Pat 1.1.1.1.1.2

              unfortunately, like any, the ‘industry’ is the sum of individuals….how each should be regarded varies.

              …one question I havnt seen asked or answered is how it (M.Bovis) reached our shores?

              • Robert Guyton

                How did M.bovis “reach our shores”? It’s widely known, below the official level, but only qualifies as rumour until there’s an official statement. You might well wonder why it’s taking so long or why there isn’t intense media interest in the source of the infection.

                • Pat

                  quick search revealed this..

                  https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/red-meat/action-call-over-any-found-have-illegally-brought-mbovis

                  …..and from memory it was first discovered on a group of Sth Canty farms in single ownership…..doubt theyre worth the couple of billion required for compensation or the aditional eradication/control costs.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Proceeds of crime act 🙂

                  • Ed

                    Farmers who do this deserve no compensation.

                    “Sources suggested that although most farmers bought their livestock treatments and drugs from reputable pharmaceutical companies through vets, those wanting cheap drugs could get them from importers who sourced and imported them illegally from countries such as China, and it was possible mycoplasma bacteria was in those drugs and treatments.”

                    And this is just further evidence we need to tear up the China free trade deal.

                    • Jimmy

                      I don’t often agree with you Ed, but in this case I think that farmers who are not NAIT compliant should get no compensation at all!
                      I’m not sure how you can be non compliant.
                      If you are, you are trying really hard too be, as stock agents, vendors and just everyone always want NAIT numbers before purchase and sale, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want to be compliant, can’t see any advantage, monetarily or otherwise.
                      Also my understanding was that the disease came into the country via a dodgy veterinarian, not a farmer.

                    • Ed

                      Glad we agree.

                    • Graeme

                      Jimmy, dodgy vet or dodgy farmer, it’s the same thing. The vet was just following industry practice of trying to push it to the limit to maximise profit by buying the cheapest possible product. And they did it so the farmer would get a better price and not go to the other provider who was probably just as dodgy.

                  • Louis

                    Similar scenario when psa decimated the once disease free Kiwifruit industry after the National government relaxed rules that allowed growers to import pollen, it was meant to save time and money.

                • xanthe

                  M.bovis did not “reach our shores” it was already here! its common name by which we all know it is Bovine tuberculosis (wikipedia is great) They have just renamed it! wonderful eh.

                  Yes thats the same bovine tuberculosis that was the reason we need to drop 1080 everywhere because possums are considered a vector.

                  It was inevitable given that we have been running a constant battle to contain Bovine tuberculosis that massive increase in density would prompt an outbreak such as this!

                  and yes it is highly infectious to humans! (wikipedia)

                  We are being sold a load of complete crap here!

                  And no the taxpayer should not be paying a cent for this inevitable outcome ! the industry should

                  also since the current spin is that its not dangerous to humans guess who is gonna eat all those cows they cull

                  • Jimmy

                    Mycoplasma Bovis, not Mycobacterium Bovis 🙄

                  • Graeme

                    I think you are confusing two very different things.

                    There’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_bovis which causes bovine TB, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_bovis which is the issue here.

                    Snap.. Jimmy

                    Mycobacterium bovis is being controlled in New Zealand by vector control operations and stock movement controls with some sucess.

                    Mycoplasma bovis may be possible to eliminate by culling exposed animals if the occurrence is small, contained and identifiable, but with what’s coming to light regarding the industry’s practices this is looking very unlikely.

                  • Ed

                    “and yes it is highly infectious to humans! ”

                    There is one simple solution.
                    Eat a plant based diet.

                    Good for you.
                    Good for the animals.
                    Good for the planet.

                    A win win win situation.

          • Ed 1.1.1.1.2

            We should have government insurance- nor private insurance owned by large foreign financial interests.

          • Pingao 1.1.1.1.3

            Reply to bwaghorn … A bit of a sidetrack I know but if you are refering to people in the red zone … some people were intentionally uninsured for whatever reason (temporarily broke or permanently poor and elderly for example) but nobody imagined they would be losing their land as well. Businesses and those with bare land could not take the government option either as EQC doesn’t cover that. Eventually after many long years of battle I think most got some justice in the end.

      • Tracey 1.1.2

        So all businesses hit by stuff outside their control get bailed out or just some?

        • Bewildered 1.1.2.1

          Yes if their is failure threatens the whole system, but do agree this does lead to issue of morale hazard Goverments global reaction to GFC prevented the collapse of global monetary system and flow onto main street and accordingly prevented a repeat of the depression of the 30s.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.2.2

          I personally don’t think they should get gov money I just took offence to Gregs hateful bile and called him on it . I m picking he s a “real lefty ” so hates anything rural or business.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2

      Poor life choices and personal responsibility are right wing fantasies with undercurrents of hate speech and racism. Basing government policy on such fantasies is a mistake.

      Also, your policy seems unnecessarily vengeful, another right wing trait.

    • Cinny 1.3

      Last year before the change of government I did ask Damo about the cattle disease, he told me that he was extremely fustrated at the lack of action from the national government

      Now I understand why. national with their farming roots, afraid to take action against some farmers who have messed it up for the rest of them.

      • Robert Guyton 1.3.1

        The initial (alleged) importation of bovis-infected veterinary supplies by a dairy farmer is one thing; the “leaky” animal tracking system is another. Should the general public have to contribute to cleaning up the mess?

        • Cinny 1.3.1.1

          yup the leaky animal tracking system……

          The way I see it, if someone is going to carry out some dodgy cattle trading, void of tracking systems etc, they should be responsible for their own actions. The difficulty is, discovering which farmers are to blame and which farmers were simply taken advantage of.

          If some farmers were knowingly taking possibly illegal shortcuts trading cattle that has potentially put all NZ cattle at risk, I’d say the people responsible should carry the can.

          Maybe it’s just mother natures way of saying…. slow the fu@k down on the dairying NZ it’s ruining the planet.

          • Ed 1.3.1.1.1

            New Zealand is a country without meaningful regulations and/or the enforcement of such rules.
            We are the poster boy for neoliberalism.

            And with no enforced rules we get…
            The CTV Building
            Pike River
            Leaky Buildings

            and this

            A culture of cowboys.
            Has come home to roost.

            And still the sheeple can be herded to support such a shambles by catchphrases such as ‘ red tape, bureaucrats, PC gone mad, …”

            Too many New Zealanders have been dumbed down so much they can’t recognise the wood from the trees.

            Sad to see a great socialist country laid low.

            Roger Douglas and his cadre of conspirators need to be tried for treason.
            And sentenced.
            Severely.

        • greywarshark 1.3.1.2

          Yes Robert Guyton
          The General Public should have to contribute to cleaning up the mess.
          And that might wake up the said GP so that they take that vital interest in protecting their countryside and nation against the dangers of slackness and incompetence from business, farming or other.

          We cannot just sit back and dream away that the leaders etc and those in business know it all and will do what is needed to protect their business brand and keep it high in estimation, or that they will protect their environment that forms an integral part of the resource provider they depend on. Doesn’t happen. We have been fooled.

          Now we really do have to be a nanny state, and go around nagging for all the boys and girls trying to get high profits and subsidies for low input from taxes and charges, and full responsibility for upkeep with low monitoring of standards of care. Bloody naggers, that’s what we have to do, and it will always be so. We can’t get out of the need to take responsibility because no-one else will. Neglect our pretty countryside, our vulnerable animals, our trusting fellow citizens; we must not do it. We not only let them down, we let ourselves become bastardised.

          • Ed 1.3.1.2.1

            Nothing wrong with a nanny.
            Far better than a cowboy.

            Nannies care.
            Cowboys don’t.

          • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.2.2

            Hey, Grey.
            So, what’s the harm? Is farming finished because of this illness? No. Most other countries have it; why the panic? Why should the public step in and compensate industry? If it was forestry and a forester illegally imported a borer beetle, should we pay for its eradication? Shouldn’t industry look to its own? Should they shoulder the responsibility for the behaviour of its own people? We are being taken for fools, I reckon.

            • greywarshark 1.3.1.2.2.1

              You are right Robert. But we can’t rely on RW to shoulder responsibility. Take on the cost and they will drop into bankruptcy or whatever. It’s us wot have got to pay in the end. You are saying what should happen. Should, should. That are words that get applied from authority to the poor and vulnerable, not get applied to those above except for those who have gone into medicine. They still try to keep up standards though even there false qualifications will get through.

              We have been taken for fools. We need to suck it up and stop expecting honest effort from regulatory agencies etc. and start inspecting, for ourselves; citizens surveillance not being surveilled.

              And things getting through, bugs etc – if we don’t watch ‘them’ it will be more of the same. Let it in and wait till someone notices and then throw hands in the air. We have to try and limit the stuff coming in and then have stations watching out for the windblown ones.

              We all have to continue picking up rubbish, limiting what we use.
              (I saw a National Geographic exhibition of photos – amazing. There was one, a picture of an apparently healthy penguin chick found dead. They looked at its stomach contents and laid it all out on a white background and there were about 200 little pieces of stuff, all different colours, seemingly all plastic. All small enough to gobble down and then just stay sitting in the gut.)

        • Brigid 1.3.1.3

          I believe the organism can also be carried by imported semen.

    • patricia bremner 1.4

      Greg, the small farmer, next door to the “factory farmer” has no control of this disease. He /She might be doing everything right, but the disease has jumped the fence. I think compensation should be capped, so small enterprises are helped, and larger factory type enterprises bear the balance of their losses. They would see overstocking and getting too large as less sustainable then.

  2. The Chairman 2

    Bold move by the Greens largely goes unnoticed.

    Greens threaten their continued support of the Government

    Green co-leader Marama Davidson told TV3’s The Hui “there is no Government that the Greens could be part of that would allow this to continue…”

    The statement was made in reference to Housing NZ’s refusal to allow a disabled tenant to install a solar power starter package that was going to be provided and installed for free.

    The statement was made at around 22.55 into the show
    https://www.threenow.co.nz/shows/the-hui/season-3%3A-sunday-6-may-2018/125685/M21250-300

    The Housing Minister initially tried to distance himself, stating it was an operational matter, but has now asked Housing NZ to look into it.

    Still awaiting an outcome.

    Good on the Greens for flexing their muscles over this. Shame they weren’t prepared to take a similar bold stance with their opposition to the TPP.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1

      This is good.

      Disabled need to be more independent of the system as possible, and this is especially true in a grid down scenario.

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.2

      The Chairman….I don’t watch telly and that link demands a login to watch. Not prepared to go through that hoha, so is there more info on this from another source?

      There are companies out there offering ‘to good to be true’ solar start up packages that contain fish hooks to snag the unwary.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/103158699/councillors-uneasy-about-solar-energy-company

      • Pat 2.2.1

        if this is the ‘locked in’ for ten years in the Hawkes Bay deal that was covered on RNZ a week or so ago then HNZ are doing the client a favour.

        • The Chairman 2.2.1.1

          I haven’t seen that report, Pat. So I’m not sure if it is related or not.

          Nevertheless, I don’t think the Greens would be advocating for this if there wasn’t a consumer benefit.

      • The Chairman 2.2.2

        No, Rosemary. Unfortunately I’ve found no other coverage of this story. The Hui did a lead up the previous week.

        The link you posted was related, as too is this one:

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/ruapehu-press/102772022/free-solar-brings-relief-for-struggling-households-in-king-country?rm=m

        Re your link, yes there are fish hooks but it seems to be a win-win as consumers will benefit (save money) regardless.

          • The Chairman 2.2.2.1.1

            So you are suggesting the Greens are advocating for this rort, Pat? Or could it be a win win for both, hence it’s got the Greens support?

            • Pat 2.2.2.1.1.1

              if its the same deal outlined in the RNZ interview (which was in King Country,my mistake)….and the Greens are pushing for it then Id question their nous(e)

              • The Chairman

                Just listening to the RNZ interview now, yet to finish. However, Jacques Windell is putting forward a good argument for why it’s not a rort.

                Care to state why you believe it is?

                • Pat

                  A 10 year contract with no price guarantee….that will be recouped (and interest) over and above power cost and some…..would the power co sign an agreement to provide power for 10 years at a fixed rate.?..i think we know the answer to that one.

                  The company is wanting a signed blank cheque….would you give them one?

                  • The Chairman

                    Here are several points you seemed to have overlooked, Pat.

                    No electricity retailer fully guarantees their pricing.

                    The 10 year contract only applies to those that fail to upgrade. Which, doing so is generally in the consumers best interest.

                    Moreover, as an active player in a competitive retail market, it is unlikely the retailer will increase prices excessively more than it’s competitors. As not all its consumers will be on a 10 year plan.

                    Furthermore, apparently their charges are the cheapest.

                    Additionally, there is another out if things go awry. One can decide to pay for the starter package themselves, freeing them from the 10 year contract.

                    So consumers aren’t totally trapped, there is little to lose as outs are provided and it will provide consumers with savings. Therefore, why wouldn’t consumer want to give it a go?

                    • Pat

                      point by point…

                      1) no they dont…nor do they require you to sign up for 10 years

                      2)the upgrade costs over $5000…and these are people struggling to pay for bare necessities…im sure they could do with an additional 5k debt

                      3)retailers that have a signed 10 year contract are not so constrained on price…thats the point

                      4) their prices are CURRENTLY the cheapest…to get the contract signed

                      5)not sure where you get that from.

                      “arnt totally trapped” is a great sales pitch there Chairman…..bet they love you at the mobile shop and pawnbrokers as well

                    • Pat

                      an additional point….the 2 panels provided “free” will be lucky to produce 600 units of power per year….average use is around 8000 kWh…even with the upgrade you will be in negative territory …and then theres the line charge.

                  • The Chairman

                    “Nor do they require you to sign up for 10 years”

                    Of course not, they aren’t providing you with a fee solar starter package.

                    “The upgrade costs over $5000”

                    Where was that stated? It is my understanding that an upgrade can cost as little as $300, taking the water heating option.

                    “Retailers that have a signed 10 year contract are not so constrained on price…thats the point”

                    No. As I explained above, not all of their customers are on the 10 year plan – so it’s a moot point.

                    Cheaper pricing allows them to grow their market share. Therefore, if they want to maintain that growth and continue to grow as a company (as most companies do) they are unlikely to price themselves out of the market going forward.

                    Pricing was stated in Rosemary’s link (from Stuff).

                    “arnt totally trapped” is a great sales pitch there Chairman…..bet they love you at the mobile shop and pawnbrokers as well”

                    I’m not the topic, Pat. And we all know what it means when one resorts to personal pot shots. So up your game.

                    • Pat

                      the water heating option as discussed in the RNZ interview is a gas califont…additional gas costs there (and likely fit out costs as well) not to mention the carbon emissions …and the 5k upgrade price is from the same source…..would suggest that if anyone needs to up their game a mirror may be in order.

                  • The Chairman

                    Re your additional point.

                    Customers are not required to pay any up front costs but are guaranteed lower electricity prices. And lower electricity prices produce savings for consumers.

                    • Pat

                      they are most certainly NOT GUARANTEED lower electricity prices…a point you seem unable to grasp

                  • The Chairman

                    My game is doing just fine, Pat. Evident by me addressing all those points of yours and you only having one comeback.

                    As for your comeback, Yes, the water heating option will come with install costs, by that is highly unlikely to come close to $5000.

                    And sure, there will be additional running costs, but they will be far cheaper than what consumers already face. And the savings (as with the power savings) will help pay for the upgrade overtime. Whether one goes for the panel upgrade or the cheaper water heating option.

                    Moving to solar in the first place will help offset carbon emissions.

                    But all of this is pointless if HNZ won’t allow tenants to install solar.

                    Thus, we need to focus more on this point.

                    • Pat

                      you keep your focus, such as it is…and hopefully consumers (and confused Greens spokespeople) will grasp the foolishness of writing blank cheques for private profit….as to installing solar on state housing theres nothing to stop HNZ doing so without the need of third parties….or 10 year contracts.

                    • The Chairman

                      My focus is seeing those struggling better off. They are already paying towards private profits, but this presents an opportunity to see those struggling become better off. So I don’t think the Green’s co-leader is confused on this.

                      As for HNZ, they won’t allow their tenants to install solar power, regardless who supplies it. And that is the major issue here.

                      The winter energy payments the Government is going to hand out is vastly insufficient. The disabled grandmother in the Hui story is paying around $500 a month, the winter energy payments the Government is offering won’t even cover one of her power bills.

                      Hence, the Government should be looking at providing all state home tenants and community cardholders with free solar packages to help them out. And providing all state home tenants with solar is ultimately what the Greens want to see happen.

                      It’s only a matter of time before the Government is forced to front up on this as it has a lot of public support, coupled with the Greens applying pressure.

                    • Pat

                      disingenuous as you know….the same person who admitted the guarantee didnt exist in the interview you listened to earlier.

                    • The Chairman

                      “Disingenuous as you know”

                      No I don’t know that. I’ve yet to finish listening to all of it. I’ve been blogging and had other things going on.

                      So back up your assertion with a time stamp of where in the interview this was supposedly said, thanks.

                    • Pat

                      22.30 through to end…

                      13 May 2018 at 9:29 am
                      “Just listening to the RNZ interview now, yet to finish. However, Jacques Windell is putting forward a good argument for why it’s not a rort.”

                    • The Chairman

                      Seems you’re being disingenuous, Pat.

                      I’ve just gone and listened from 22.30 on-wards and there is no admission as you claimed.

                      I never got that far in my first attempt to listen to it and I’ve yet to fully listen to the whole interview.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  “Care to state why you believe it is?”

                  I wandered over to their website earlier….layout and formatting convinced me all is not well here

                  https://superchargedenergy.co.nz/get-free-solar-panels-free-solar-power/

                  For example….bold headings, then the text is faded….wtf is that about?

                  Repeated use of the words “free” and “giveaway”.

                  I feel the stench of these operators….http://www.shopathomeservices.co.nz/

                  I could be wrong….but my instincts say stay away.

                  • Bill

                    It’s not the most informative of sites. Nothing seems to be “up front”. Information seems to be contingent upon “signing up”. I searched for “terms and conditions” on their 10 year thing – nothing.

                    • millsy

                      Very short of info. Rather like those TV ads that give all all this stuff for a “free 30 day” trial but don’t tell you what you have to pay until you phone in by which time you fell obliged to buy.

                  • The Chairman

                    Rosemary, most consumers nowadays are aware that products being advertised as being free come with a catch. 

                    The question is will the consumer benefit nonetheless? In this instance, it seems so (see my reply to Pat).

                    Therefore, you would need to point to something more concrete to suggest otherwise.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      “… most consumers nowadays are aware that products being advertised as being free come with a catch. ”

                      So the ends justifies the means?

                      Rubbish. Be upfront and totally transparent.

                      Disappointed if the Greens are supporting initiatives run along these line.

                      It sounds like you think the market model still has credence.

                  • The Chairman

                    “So the ends justifies the means?”

                    If it’s a win-win, why not?

                    “It sounds like you think the market model still has credence.”

                    Not at all. However, show me where the Government is offering better? And I’ll fully back it.

                    My goal here is to see struggling consumers better off.

                    The issue here isn’t so much about the supplier, rather than the fact HNZ opposes tenants installing solar power.

                    This is the major issue here, which thanks to Pat seems to have been overlooked.

                    • millsy

                      I don’t think HNZ opposes solar panels, I think it is more of a case of not wanting the tenant to organise any changes to the electrical wiring without it’s consent, which it is entitled to do. Any landlord would do the same given the circumstances. I personally support solar panels on Housing NZ houses but this needs to be a move led by the corporation itself.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ millsy

                      The disabled grandmother in the Hui’s coverage seeked consent from HNZ and was declined. The reason for which was not reported.

                      It wasn’t going to cost them (HNZ) a dime. But it would have added value to the property.

                      And as it will add value to a property with no cost to the landlord, most, I would assume would jump at the chance if offered.

                      While it may be within their right to decline, it doesn’t make it right.

                      Moreover, it’s counter productive to the rhetoric the Government has been spouting re warm dry homes. It’s hard to keep a home warm and dry when one can’t afford to turn the heating on.

                      You are not alone, lots of people I’ve spoken to about this also support the notion (solar panels on state homes). And it doesn’t have to be led by HNZ. The Government could also take the lead, directing HNZ to make it so.

                      But it seems the Greens and the Government overall have all gone rather silent on this since the Greens spoke up and took their bold stance last weekend.

                  • The Chairman

                    From Jacques Windell, Rosemary. 

                    Moreover, why would they fix in a low price when power prices tend to increase overtime?

                • Bill

                  Oh gawd, Kathryn Ryan’s painfully stupid.

                  Anyway.

                  Am I reading things right? 33c “anytime” doesn’t strike me as cheap (Superpower website)

                  What does a tenant do with a ten year contract given the precarious nature of rentals and penalties for breaking the contract?

                  What’s the scenario for a tenant who’s able to add panels (again) given the precarious nature of renting?

                  What if the review of lines company charges drops electricity charges significantly in the time between signing up and the end of the ten years, given that the customer’s “locked in” to Superpower and their rates?

                  I’m seeing “loss leader” and sniffing one of those “rent to own” HP deals companies used to make like bandits on.

                  edit – Supercharged Energy, not Superpower.

                  • The Chairman

                    “What’s the scenario for a tenant who’s able to add panels (again) given the precarious nature of renting?”

                    Good question. This would be something a tenant and their landlord would require to discuss.

                    “What if the review of lines company charges drops electricity charges significantly in the time between signing up and the end of the ten years, given that the customer’s “locked in” to Superpower and their rates?”

                    From my understanding, the contract may be for 10 years, but the prices aren’t fixed.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      “From my understanding, the contract may be for 10 years, but the prices aren’t fixed.”

                      Where did you find this info?

                    • Bill

                      From my understanding, the contract may be for 10 years, but the prices aren’t fixed.

                      And that’s the point. If the review tumbles the price charged by the lines company, then the numbers being used by “Supercharged” may no longer stack up from a customers perspective. But they’ll be locked in to ten years during which “Supercharged” will be charging prices that make their “free offer” viable for themselves.

                      Put another way. Going with “Supercharged” may cost more for customers in the long run than would have been the case if they’d just stuck with what they’ve got.

                    • Pat

                      “seems” is a wonderfully useful word….especially when you don’t bother to look or think too deeply….you may have noticed (or chosen not to perhaps) that their main area of core business is “high value commercial installations”…consequently the residential price competitiveness is hardly critical to their business.

                    • The Chairman

                      But as they are also a power retailer, residential price competitiveness is critical to their business.

                      They won’t survive in the retailing game for 10 years if they don’t remain competitive, Pat.

                  • The Chairman

                    Sorry, I thought your point was they would be stuck on a higher fixed price if prices fell.

                    But as you agree prices aren’t fixed, then you will know they can also fall if pricing structures change going forward.

                    As I explained to Pat above, as an active player in a competitive retail market, it is unlikely the retailer will increase prices excessively more than its competitors. As not all its consumers will be on a 10 year plan. Thus, to maintain and potentially grow their market share one would expect prices to remain competitive going forward. And there are outs provided if things go awry.

                    • Pat

                      “As I explained to Pat above, as an active player in a competitive retail market, it is unlikely the retailer will increase prices excessively more than it’s competitors. As not all its consumers will be on a 10 year plan. Thus, to maintain and potentially grow their market share one would expect prices to remain competitive going forward. And there are outs provided if things go awry.”

                      a more blatant example of wishful thinking would be difficult to find….lol…as we know from experience business always operates with the interests of the consumer at heart.

                    • The Chairman

                      Pat, remaining competitive, thus remaining in the game is the company looking after it’s own interest. It just happens to also provide a win for their customers.

                      As I’ve been telling you, this seems to be a win-win situation.

                      Thus, you screaming rort and blank cheques for private profit is a rather extremist red herring.

                    • Bill

                      Retailers work on available margins. Supercharged Energy have already narrowed the one available to them by providing $3000 worth of panels, the cost of which needs to be recuperated.

                      If the wholesale price drops, their margin narrows or disappears altogether.

                      But they have “locked-in” customers to recuperate “losses” from.

                      Ergo, their customers may wind up paying more for electricity than if they’d waited for the reviews on the wholesalers to be completed.

                    • Pat

                      why do you think (if you do) they are requiring a 10 year contract signed if the market dictates competitiveness?…they are contracting out of that competitive environment is the quite obvious answer hence your competition argument holds no water.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ Bill

                      If the wholesale price drops, it gives them scope to restructure their pricing while maintaining margins. If wholesale prices drop, they pay less thus can afford to on-sell it for less while maintaining their margin.

                      Customers aren’t fully locked in. Hence if their prices increases excessively, customers will opt out. Resulting in no loss to the customer as they will sill have their starter package, however, the company can kiss goodbye to future returns. Thus, there is no commercial logic in doing so.

                    • Pat

                      earned your commission this morning Chairman…

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/103158699/councillors-uneasy-about-solar-energy-company

                      I await the howls of protest in a couple of years time when those foolish enough to sign up realise theyre worse off…meanwhile keep up the sales pitch.

                  • Pat

                    not painfully stupid….painfully polite

                    • Bill

                      heh – I find her her to be a headache inducing whitterer of both the bleeding obvious and the utterly irrelevant.

                    • The Chairman

                      @Pat

                      “Why do you think (if you do) they are requiring a 10 year contract signed if the market dictates competitiveness?”

                      Because that is how long it will take them to recoup their outlay in getting this up and running.

                      Thus, it’s about limiting their risk.

                      It’s not about contracting out of that competitive environment. These 10 year contracts are only a small part of their retail business, so being competitive is important to their survival in a competitive market.

                      Less pot shots, more thought required in your argument.

                      Next.

                    • In Vino

                      To me, Chairman you have let your cover slip again. You show belief in competition and the free market.
                      How surprising.
                      NZ used to be one of the low-cost countries for electricity. When I was in Europe around 1980, I yearned for the low-cost, good electricity service we had in NZ.
                      I came back, lived through the farce of Rogernomics and Bradford’s reforms, and all of a sudden NZ has one of the more expensive electricity services. Basically a staged competition which constitutes an oligarchy.
                      You have shown again that you are a right-winger pretending to be a leftie, Chairman.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ In Vino

                      “To me, Chairman you have let your cover slip again. You show belief in competition and the free market”

                      I’m not the topic, Vino. Nevertheless, I don’t support totally free markets but competition can be effective .

                      I too have lived through Rogernomics and Bradford’s reforms and opposed them all the way.

                      I would love to see power provided as a public service. Unfortunately, this Labour lot aren’t going to do that. And of course this (the disabled grandmother story on the Hui) is an example of what we are left with, thus have to deal with.

                      We’ll be lucky if this Government allows solar power on state housing.

                      Look what’s in the pipeline
                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households

                    • In Vino

                      Ouch. Good post that time, Chairman. Sorry it took me so long to catch up, and probably nobody (not even you) will read this.
                      Will take into consideration for the future (after 15 May).

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.3.1

          Honestly TC…I’d have thought both Mihi Forbes and Billie Jo Rohipa would have been more aware of the scrutiny such a pitch was going to attract, and done better with their narrative.

          Plugging Renovation Guy’s set up as indicative of the potential for a two panel solar system to free a family from the tyranny of the lines company is disingenuous at best.

          I am even less comfortable now I’ve actually eyeballed the two major protagonists.

          There will be tears.
          And embarrassment.

          Would have been better for Council Guy with the facial hair obsession to have bailed up his central government colleague (in between supporting family in their animal abuse case) and guilt tripped the Current Incumbents into sorting out the lines company rort.

          And heads up to the Lines Company… while they’re charging like wounded bulls…looks like its only the lichen holding their infrastructure together. Their kit could do with some tlc.

          PS….carefully managed, Lady in Wheelchair could do better from the Winter Benefit Bonus thingy than she will save from those two solar panels. 😉 😉

          • The Chairman 2.2.3.1.1

            “PS….carefully managed, Lady in Wheelchair could do better from the Winter Benefit Bonus thingy than she will save from those two solar panels”

            No, she won’t. The winter energy payment won’t even cover one monthly bill. Whereas, the solar power starter package was calculated at saving her around a $100 a month.

            So unless you can show there is something better on offer, surely you must see why she is keen to get on board?

            • Brigid 2.2.3.1.1.1

              But exactly how will this solar starter package save her $100 a month? Especially considering daylight hours during the winter. In Taumarunui, where the fog lifts at 10 and falls again at 4 there’s damn all solar gain.

              • The Chairman

                “But exactly how will this solar starter package save her $100 a month?”

                Because their current charges are so outrageous.

                She will save money just by switching over to the new supplier, let alone from the solar package. They still work in the fog or rain.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  The Chairman. I believe, sir, you are seriously misguided in your support of this particular scheme.

                  And the Green Party co-leader should also be more cautious about plugging solar as the panacea for cold damp houses and high power bills.

                  Just watching the program and the interview…I would install a decent high efficiency log burner with wet back linked, to a solar hot water system.

                  Hot water when the fire is on….and gobs of firewood in Taumaranui…able to cook on the fire and will heat the house. Solar hot water for the summer.

                  Replace the missing bulbs with energy efficient ones, hang decent curtains…I’m sure the community can pitch in and help.

                  And shame on that company with the really misleading website and dodgy sounding deal for exploiting this person.

                  Nothing is for free. What is supercharged energy “New Zealand’s Leading Solar Energy Provider getting out of this?

                  • The Chairman

                    “The Chairman. I believe, sir, you are seriously misguided in your support of this particular scheme.”

                    I don’t believe so. While its not the preferred solution, it’s the best solution (for some) they have on offer.

                    “I would install a decent high efficiency log burner with wet back linked, to a solar hot water system”

                    Yes, but would HNZ allow a solar hot water system to be installed?

                    Going off them declining the solar starter package, it’s unlikely.

                    Moreover, who is offering to provide these free (a decent high efficiency log burner with wet back linked, to a solar hot water system)?

                    Many companies have so-called free offers that aren’t really free so I wouldn’t get so hung up about that.

                    People aren’t totally locked into the 10 year contract and it’s in their own interest to upgrade. And with savings up to a hundred dollars a month, it provides the fiscal scope to do so.

                    And as I told you before, the question here is will the consumer benefit nonetheless? In this instance, it seems so.

    • Chris 2.3

      Will be interesting if the Greens will take the same approach to the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill. It’s had its second reading and is at the Committee of the Whole House.

      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/00DBHOH_BILL68669_1/social-security-legislation-rewrite-bill

      Very few changes were made. Sanctions are still there. Power for the executive to alter crucial aspects of the principal Act are still there. More of the same from Labour. Every time we think “maybe this time Labour will be different”, but no – when it comes to the poor they remain National’s most loyal supporters.

      Sarah Wilson and others here predicted it, and now we have it. It’s official. Labour’s decided that it won’t be stopping its policy of shitting all over the poor any time soon:

      https://thestandard.org.nz/writehanded-a-sea-change-or-just-more-weasel-words/#comment-1466919

      • The Chairman 2.3.1

        “Will be interesting if the Greens will take the same approach to the Social Security Legislation Rewrite Bill.”

        Indeed, Chris.

        Now with Marama as co-leader we may see this bolder stance from the Greens more often. I certainly hope so.

        Interestingly, there has been no howls from National over this as some here feared.

    • DH 2.4

      IMO Greens need to learn to pick their battles, their intentions are good but they just look foolish on this one. It’s not practical for tenants to install their own solar, the sums don’t add up and likely never will.

      • The Chairman 2.4.1

        “It’s not practical for tenants to install their own solar, the sums don’t add up and likely never will.”

        What sums are you talking about?

        • DH 2.4.1.1

          The $$ sums of course. A solar installation is a fixed structure, the tenant can’t take it with them without considerable de-installation costs.

          Depending on how good a shopper you are the payback period for a moderate sized 3kW solar install is 7-13 years. How would that make sense for a renter?

          Btw that ‘free’ solar installation would take over 20yrs to pay itself off, small installs of only a couple of panels are not very economic.

          • The Chairman 2.4.1.1.1

            “Btw that ‘free’ solar installation would take over 20yrs to pay itself off, small installs of only a couple of panels are not very economic.”

            The provider in this case will recoup their outlay in 10 years.

            “A solar installation is a fixed structure, the tenant can’t take it with them without considerable de-installation costs.”

            True, but they can prearrange suitable compensation from their landlord (perhaps in the form of rent reductions) before purchasing/committing. Making it more feasible.

            This scheme has been set up so one will save money just by switching over.
            And apparently modelling shows there will be further savings. Even the critic in Pat’s RNZ link concurred there would be savings, albeit minimal in her eyes.

            • DH 2.4.1.1.1.1

              How would there be savings? The supplier needs to recoup the cost of the solar installation, they’d typically do that by charging more for the power they supply. If they didn’t have $3k to recover they could offer power at a lower price, it’s a bit inane to claim people will save anything from it.

              And why would a landlord want to buy a used solar installation from a departing tenant? What’s in it for them? Even if they did buy they’d want a sizeable risk premium (discount) which would largely negate the savings from solar. It’s just not worth it from a tenant’s POV, the sums don’t add up.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                “… the sums don’t add up.”

                I’d be interested in seeing the sums….all of them.

                • DH

                  It’s much what I’ve said Rosemary. Solar panels make economic sense to a homeowner because they can be expected to last over 25 years. It’s a sizeable capital outlay which you recover over 7-12 years and then reap the benefits thereafter once they’re paid off.

                  That simply doesn’t make economic sense to the typical renter. They’ll never stay long enough to reap the benefits. It could make sense if they could take their panels with them when they move but the cost of de-install and re-install would make that uneconomic too.

              • The Chairman

                “How would there be savings?”

                Because their current prices are outrageous. Hence, this is a better deal. Have you not been following the story?

                “And why would a landlord want to buy a used solar installation from a departing tenant?”

                Because it adds value to the property, saving them or future tenants power costs. Thus, could be rented out for more. And if approached before one commits, it won’t be used, it will be new.

                • DH

                  Whose current prices are outrageous? Look up powerswitch, their Northland prices are much the same as other suppliers.

                  Their site is confusing to say the least but these links interest;

                  https://superchargedenergy.co.nz/free-solar-northpower-small-home/
                  http://superchargedenergy.co.nz/signup-northpower-small-home-solar/

                  Note the difference in the price of the plans between the free solar and the existing solar. Call me an old cynic but that looks to me like they ramped up the price on the free plan…. needs an explanation anyway.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    ….and do those prices include GST?

                    • DH

                      It doesn’t say but probably, no mention of prompt payment dicsount either. I was mostly interested in the renting aspect of it so I haven’t followed the free solar story much, but the main thing is they appear to be offering two plans;

                      Plan 1 to homes with existing solar installations;
                      http://superchargedenergy.co.nz/signup-lines-small-home-solar/

                      Plan 2 to homes with a ‘free’ solar installation;
                      https://superchargedenergy.co.nz/free-solar-lines-small-home/

                      Note the prices;

                      Plan 1
                      15 cents Daily Charge
                      9 cents/kWh Anytime
                      10 cents/kWh Day
                      8 cents/kWh Night

                      Plan 2
                      15 cents Daily Charge
                      15 cents/kWh Anytime
                      16 cents/kWh Day
                      14 cents/kWh

                      Now I read that as them charging more on the free plan to cover the cost of the ‘free’ solar panels. No doubt Mr Chairman will find some way of disagreeing with that conclusion though 😉

                  • The Chairman

                    Power charges in the region are outrageous, largely due to their lines charges.

                    The different pricing you highlighted is how the company recoups its costs. Nevertheless, they are still competitive.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  I have been asking those who live, eat and breathe solar and …one pundit had already looked into this scheme and…

                  ‘…the terms and conditions for the two “free” solar panels that you will never own installed after a qualifying period, the 120 month (10 years to me) exclusive contract and you may walk away.

                  Edit. Well those terms and conditions were on the front page a few weeks ago. I have a copy here. They now appear to be well hidden away somewhere.’

                  • DH

                    I don’t live & breathe it but I do have a site with an off-grid solar installation. I’ve also spent considerable time on the subject over the years, even imported panels & other equipment on occasion, so I have a fair idea on the economics of it. It’s mostly just maths, most of the variables are fixed and it’s largely a matter of doing the sums correctly.

                    It needs Govt intervention to get low income people into solar, IMO few can do it themselves. My experience is that any deals targeted at people without the cash have extra costs loaded on – higher price for the kit and high interest rates on the financing. That increases the payback period beyond what one could view as a reasonable investment. Add 20-30% to the overall cost and the payback period also stretches out another few years, makes it too marginal.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      “I don’t live & breathe it but I do have a site with an off-grid solar installation…”

                      Partner and I spend about 70% of our lives living in our Bus with 300W solar on the roof. Our power usage is necessarily low, especially with our failing deep cycle batteries. We seldom plug into the mains. Upside is cheap living that allows us to save….new batteries hopefully imminent :-)…downside is a diesel heater that needs a minimum number of volts to ignite, and power assist wheels on my partner’s wheelchair, also with failing batteries which need extra volts to charge fully.

                      Even without having access to all the specs of the basic superchargedpenergy system…instinct tells me that the inputs are not going to sustain the power use….

                      Totally agree with government assistance for solar…but for water heating. Solar power schemes, from what I’ve read, can be very efficient using large arrays…

                    • DH

                      The dreaded batteries… the achilles heel of being off-grid. I’m using some big forklift cells I imported as a business eval, even they’re not enough and I fret over cloudy weeks.

                      The water heating makes sense, frankly I’d rather have seen that than the insulation subsidy if there was a choice between the two.

                      The biggest hit on alternate power has been all the compliance costs loaded on by meddling bureaucrats. As solar came down in price up went the installation costs.

            • Pat 2.4.1.1.1.2

              the link you havnt listened to yet?….she also said 2 panels as good as useless and the lines charges are unimpacted…plus $5500 for a six panel upgrade….only a complete fool would sign a 10 year supply agreement without a fixed known rate…,its fine to be a fool for yourself Chairman, it becomes akin to fraudulent when advising others to do so.

              • The Chairman

                I wasn’t advising anyone, Pat. So if anyone is being fraudulent here, it’s you.

                I was highlighting why people are joining up.

                Line charges will be impacted as they are going to be based on power drawn with different rates for different times of the day. So the critic in your RNZ link was incorrect.

                I’ve fully listened to your link a while back.

                “Only a complete fool would sign a 10 year supply agreement without a fixed known rate”

                You make it sound as if those that have signed up or are willing too have a better option, they don’t. They are currently being hammered. So you fail to take into account the context of their situation.

                Hence, while it may not be right for some, there is no foolishness in accepting a good deal if it’s right for you.

                And they are not totally locked into the 10 year contract as you very well know.

                Many people have and will enter into a long-term floating mortgage without knowing what the rate of interest will be going forward. Do you think they are foolish too?

  3. DB Brown 3

    I disagree.

    While there is certainly an onus on Farmers to be forthright with all authorities concerning this outbreak; overstocking, water consumption, corporate welfare et al have NOTHING to do with your original topic (Greg, 1) namely, compensation for stock losses due to Mycoplasma bovis.

    Farmers should definitely receive compensation while this disease is controllable. Without compensation you’ll start to see some of the sneakiness you are so concerned about and Farmers will take more risks with more to lose. With compensation they (we) stand a chance of beating this thing.

    You have a lot to say about Farmers but it’s largely an incomprehensible jumble. Pick an area, do some research, you’ll find a smoking gun to be angry about, this is not it.

    Your suggestion Farmers should suffer because they voted National is kind of despicable. There’s plenty of good reasons they might be hoist by their own petard, voting in a democratic system is not even on the list.

    • Robert Guyton 3.1

      DB, would you say that farmers’ “reluctance” to comply with the NAIT requirements has been a significant issue in controlling its spread? Had farmers, and the National Government made the animal tracing system fully operational, Mycoplasma bovis would not have spread to the extent it has, yes?
      They’ve “shot themselves in the foot”, haven’t they?

      • DB Brown 3.1.1

        Robert.

        Yes there is an aspect of stupidity (shot themselves) involved. This is not a Farmer thing in general though, it is an individual thing, where a small percentage, through selfishness/fear, have let the whole mob down. Also, a deep distrust in Government (I get it) is predominant here in this website, one might suppose some Farmers have similar issues too.

        Historically we’ve seen similar. Farmers distrust in science/advice, taking matters into their own hands: It only took one or two landholders to ruin the control of rabbits by releasing a virus before we were ready to release it widely. Thus allowing rabbits to breed resistance.

        My point is that it was not all farmers who did that. It was one or two.

        Everyone wants a scalp, someone to be outraged at. We used to burn women (witches) for bacterial pathogens (plague, famine, disease). Should we burn the Farmers with the cows?

        As for the (previous) Govt: Have they ever seen us as anything more than producers of bulk goods and cash money to sidetrack to corporate pals? The infected meat is, after all, saleable. Inaction was their MO.

        • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1

          The non-farming public don’t “want a scalp”, DB Brown, nor do they want someone to “be outraged at” – they/we are not fired up over M.bovis, farmers are. A “few” farmers caused the out break, but many farmers; those who failed to NAIT-up, created the opportunity for its rapid and untraceable spread. It seems the result of “agriculture-think” and that’s what non-farmers are shaking their heads at and asking, “why should we have to pay?”

          • DB Brown 3.1.1.1.1

            I can cede those points. The original poster was out to lynch farmers which is a bit of a theme of late… I should have read further on the issue before commenting further, my bad. It’ll be hard for the buggers right now facing the loss of stock, no-one willingly went there.

            It is unfortunate a lack of compliance was widespread, I doubt Farmers could’ve stopped it once it was detected though. It may be easy for some to imagine Farmers understand the implications of microbial pathology and epidemiology, but I doubt the majority do.

            Why do non-farmers have to pay? I think as it’s one of those things where doing nothing is not a proper option; and it requires a significant coordinated response. NZ is NZ, not Farmer NZ and Townie NZ, just the one country. Here’s hoping we can kill it off, that’d be awesome. There may be a question of Farmer subsidies to be debated, for now it clouds the issue needing a response.

            We beat the gypsy moth. Mad cows come and go… But we’ve seemingly just wrung our hands over Myrtle rust and Kauri dieback. Actually having a plan for Mycoplasma is excellent, non-compliance could have been factored in.

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1.1

              I appreciate your fair reply, DB Brown. It seems the M.bovis horse has bolted and is background now; the lesson? These things will happen. I think “agri-thinks” is wrong and shouldn’t be supported by the general public, but it is and the future looks like the present. There’s a better way, but we are not yet of a mind to hear it.

        • adam 3.1.1.2

          For a disease like this to spread it’s not one or two farmers DB Brown, it’s many, many more. I think you’re deluding yourself if you think it’s only one or two. The spread was too wide, and too quick.

          My response to this is that the government needs to set up a commission of enquiry. An independant body to look into how this spread as it did, and the possibility of criminal charges being laid against those who spread it.

          I don’t think checks should be written just yet, with the possibility of one of those checks going to a criminal.

          I said it, it was criminal what the spreaders did.

          • Matiri 3.1.1.2.1

            Damien O’Connor said yesterday morning on The Nation that non-compliance with NAIT was 70%.

          • Bill 3.1.1.2.2

            It could be “one or two” farmers.

            How centralised are stock markets? What size of area do they generally cover?

        • tracey 3.1.1.3

          Why dont farmers pay annual levies into a farm to insure against stuff? Lots of people get harm by the metaphoric jumping of fences. As a lawyer I had to pay annual fees to enable people to be compensated by rogue lawyers. I never transgressed but still had to pay.

          • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.3.1

            Indeed, Tracey, insurance against “agricultural misadventure” but whose going to offer that? Agriculture is misadventure.

    • greg 3.2

      the farmers should go bankrupt there in a business its there risk not the tax payer

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.1

        It is curious that the farming industry changed their tune so quickly (around eradicating Mycoplasma bovis) when the Government told them how much they expected farmers to pay for the work. A very rapid about-face and suddenly there was no pressing need to eradicate – perhaps we can live with it, they said.

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.2

        The really disturbing aspect of the whole situation is the extensive slaughter of animals and their consigning to “dead holes” and public refuse sites – mass killings and mass burials across the country! I wonder about the effects on groundwater and rivers and I wonder about…rats.

        • AsleepWhileWalking 3.2.2.1

          Yea traumatic for all.

          • Ed 3.2.2.1.1

            Very traumatic for the innocent cows.
            I don’t feel at all sorry for farmers who break the rules.

            Denise L’Estrange-Corbet
            70% of dairy Farmers.

            Businesses that don’t play by the rules deserve to go out of business.

        • bwaghorn 3.2.2.2

          The meat is edible .As far as I know they are being processed in the works and sold .

          • Robert Guyton 3.2.2.2.1

            You’d think, bwaghorn but the Feds website and Stuff say differently:

            Thousands of diseased calves taken to works and dumped in landfill …
            https://www.stuff.co.nz/…/thousands-of-diseased-calves-taken-to-works-and-dumped-in-…
            2 days ago – Nathan Guy says some of the calves that went to the dump could have … In addition, a further 1270 animals were killed on farms and taken to …

            • bwaghorn 3.2.2.2.1.1

              As I wrote that I wondered if calves might be getting dumped shame they don’t go to pet food

        • Ed 3.2.2.3

          There is a simple solution…..

    • Cinny 3.3

      it’s estimated that around 70% of farmers were responsible.

      Why were they allowed to behave like this for so long?

      nathan guy you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to criticising the current government on said issue.

      Why the lack of action, so many blind eyes, so much damage now.

      Would ANY insurance company compensate said farmers for such practices? I highly doubt it.

      Am so glad we now have a Minister that will bend over backwards to fix and solve this horrendous blight on the farming sector.

      • DB Brown 3.3.1

        Excuse my ignorance Cinny. 70% of Farmers responsible – please show me where this info comes from.

        • Matiri 3.3.1.1

          70% non-compliance with NAIT according to Damien O’Connor on The Nation yesterday. Anyone else think Damien is showing the strain of it all?

        • Cinny 3.3.1.2

          DB Brown, what Matiri below said 🙂

          70% non-compliance with NAIT according to Damien O’Connor

          Matiri, imagine… welcome to post nathan guy incompetence…. far out, big job.

  4. AsleepWhileWalking 4

    Duplex is fascinating.

  5. Cinny 5

    HAPPY MOTHERS DAY to all the people raising children, because some Dads are Mums too 🙂

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.1

      Ironic, as I was just about to post this…

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018643497/insight-fathers-who-stay-at-home

      Rare puff piece from Natrad as deep and meaningful discussion is had about dads choosing to be ‘stay at homes’.

      The key word there is “choosing”.

      Maybe their are some families in NZ who have the choice…but for most there has been no option…both parents have to work.

      • Cinny 5.1.1

        Good vibes Rosemary 🙂 🙂 🙂

        Looking forward to having a listen to the link, thanks so much for posting.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.2

        Ironic as the previous programme discussed the Child Poverty Reduction Bill select committee submissions.

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/the-house/audio/2018644390/the-far-reaching-tentacles-of-child-poverty

        “Other submitters had a more grassroots approach.

        “We, as a school, provide food parcels. said Principal of Holy Family School Chris Theobald.

        “We start off the morning at 7:30am with breakfast and finish three days a week at 5 o’clock in the evening for our students.”

        He said the extended hours aren’t because the students’ parents are drug users or alcoholics.

        “We have little to no examples of that in our community. Our community isn’t under-employed they’re over-employed,” he said.

        “Our community are working two or three jobs and that’s why we had to extend our hours to cater for the varied circumstances that don’t make up a typical nine to five working day for our families.”

        Mr Theobald told the committee the school also advocates for families who are in tough situations because the students can’t learn until their standard of living improves.

        “We have examples of families that haven’t had an oven for over 12 months and they’ve been using a BBQ because if they complain to their landlord then their rent will go up.” “

        • Cinny 5.1.2.1

          Another good link, cheers 🙂 I really enjoyed the dads raising kids audio doco you posted, it was great.

    • greywarshark 5.2

      And Grandmas and Grandads too who are raising children. We salute you.

  6. mauī 6

    Richie Allen on the novichook saga lol

  7. Herodotus 7

    The moment any party gets into power can we really trust them to put into action what they committed to make a better NZ ?
    If our PM is not concerned… REALLY. We are fast seeing the current PM looking and behaving like the previous voted in PM.
    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/05/govt-hikes-cost-of-one-bedroom-kiwibuild-homes.html
    How about this …..
    “Onerous rules and requirements have made land more expensive and building on that land more expensive….But I want to assure our young people that they needn’t despair. A National Government will actively preserve and promote the home-ownership aspirations of everyday New Zealanders. We are a party founded on the principle of home ownership and we intend to deliver on that principle.”
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10455931
    Pity no one really cares in keeping our govts. honest, and IMO they don’t care about being caught out, that is why we have so many spin drs. for. 🙁

  8. Ed 8

    Some statistics from World War 2

    For every American soldier who died in WW2 80 Russians were killed.

    9 out of 10 of Nazi soldiers that died, was wounded or taken prisoner was taken prisoner by the Red Army or died or was wounded on the Eastern Front.

    Which country paid the bigger price for our freedom from fascism?

    • Wayne 8.1

      The Americans, the British and ourselves fought a different sort of war to the Russians.

      It was much more of a naval and air battle than the eastern front. That is, more machines, but less people. That means less causalities. But the strategic effect of the eastern war and the western war were broadly comparable in ensuring the ultimate defeat of Germany.

      By 1945 the German Navy had virtually ceased to exist. Nazi Germany was under a complete naval blockade. The strategic air campaign devastated German industry, rail networks and the cities. Again by 1945 industrial production had dropped dramatically. All of this helps explain why it took 10 months from D day to the surrender.

      The Russians did suffer dramatically. Some of that was due to the methods used by the Soviet Army. Stalin and the Russian Army would launch attacks leading to much higher casualties than would ever be tolerated in a western army.

      To get a measure of the different ways of fighting think of the New Zealand casualty rate in the two world wars. Basically twice as many killed in WW1 as in WW2, even though we had more people serving in WW2 than in WW1. New Zealand commanders in WW2 were not permitted to run operations that would have WW1 scale casualties. That was also true of the British Army.

      The eastern front (meaning the land war) was larger than the western front. Probably the best measure is that the Germans had twice as many land forces on the eastern front as on the western front. But the great majority of the Luftwaffe faced west.

      And the defeat of Japan was almost entirely a western effort, mostly American.

      • Ed 8.1.1

        We seem to have forgotten how much we owe our Russian friends.

        It is clear you have.

        • tracey 8.1.1.1

          Ask survivors of Buckenwald who were raped by Russian soldiers as they tried to walk home

          • veutoviper 8.1.1.1.1

            +1111111

          • Ed 8.1.1.1.2

            So all Russians are bad?

            Does this war crime negate the sacrifice of 25 million Russians who died defending their nation against the fascist horde?

            By the Standard you use, we should not appreciate the British effort either as we could ask the people of Dresden about the British bombers who levelled their city in a firestorm.

            • Stuart Munro 8.1.1.1.2.1

              It’s not straightforward.

              Russian entered what became WW2 as a German ally against its western neighbours.

              When Germany turned on them, the allies cooked up a deal to keep them in the war to erode German forces.

              The Russians received enormous quantities of materiale to stay in the war. The maintenance of the resistance in France was a similar allied initiative.

              Russian losses were horrific for several reasons. They lost a lot of experienced commanders to political shenanigans. A lot of forces were given mandatory counterattack orders irrespective of their situation. Russian staffing was very much based on a conscript armies model. Russian (under Stalin) greed for territory as the Germans retreated was significant. And, immediately postwar a lot of veterans were done away with for being ‘politically unreliable’.

              So, is it true to say “25 million Russians who died defending their nation”? A less profligate use of Russian soldiers was entirely possible – they were sent into the fire as callously as our soldiers were at Paschendale.

        • Bewildered 8.1.1.2

          Not sure ed where you are coming from Ed , in know way did Wayne denigrate Russia efforts he put up a reasoned arguement explaining casualty rate differences beteeen Russia and the allies, your response was petulant st best, playing the man and not the ball

      • In Vino 8.1.2

        Get your history right, Wayne. 80% of Hitler’s war effort went into the East, largely absorbed by Russia. I think you will also find that the Luftwaffe lost more heavily in the East than the West as well. We hear all about the wonderful Spitfire and the Mustang, but we never hear about the equally good fighters that Russia produced to eventually overcome the German fighters. Hitler’s policy (of concentrating on producing a lot of the fighters they had rather than improving them but producing fewer) did not pay off.
        We in the West absorbed and conquered only 20% of Germany’s war effort, and despite a good start in a bit of a power vacuum, Japan never had Germany’s industrial strength, nor the ability to produce a nuclear weapon as Germany had. I suggest you check out when Germany actually achieved its peak industrial output for WW2. You will be rather surprised: Hitler was late to put German industry onto full war production, and the mass bombing campaigns were nowhere near as successful as its proponents hoped it would be. It was largely a campaign of terror against civilians

      • Ed 8.1.3

        Your woeful knowledge of World War 2 history is apparent.

        • greywarshark 8.1.3.1

          Ed
          I think you should explain who you are talking to – you appear to have someone in mind. It would be good if you just allowed some people to make some errors and not correct and call out everything. Choose your targets.

    • reason 8.2

      Darn right Ed …. and the overwhelming bulk of the German army fighting the russians made D day possible …. and saved thousands upon thousands of common-wealth / u.s.a soldiers lives.

      While the Russian army was engaged in a death struggle with the Nazi Army …. The British and yanks were bombing German cities .. perfecting the weapon of terror against civilians … Fire-storms.

      The russians killed a higher percentage of german troops / armed services .

      The British / yanks killed more Civilians …. and probably killed more German civilians than soldiers.

  9. Ed 9

    ‘Victims of sexual assault waiting more than a year for counselling.

    Sex attack victims are waiting more than a year for counselling, as stretched services struggle to cope with demand.
    One university student says it’s been 13 months since she was sexually assaulted – and still, ACC and its counselling agencies haven’t been able to help.
    The long wait for help has been punishing. She has searched around providers, looking for someone to talk to – but all of the Auckland City sexual assault counsellors are too busy, she says.’

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/103850454/victims-of-sexual-assault-waiting-more-than-a-year-for-counselling

    Neoliberal New Zealand.
    A poster boy for plutocrats.
    A basket case for its citizens.

  10. Ed 10

    A housing system that profits the rich, rather than providing secure homes for the workers.

    ‘Homeless man living in south Auckland hotel costing $2000 a week for tax payers

    A homeless man who was living on the streets while struggling to recover from heart surgery is now staying in a $2000-a-week south Auckland hotel room paid for by the taxpayer while waiting to move into social housing.
    His sorry story of sleeping rough, having his heart medication stolen and struggling to get a roof over his head highlights the “lack of adequate state housing in New Zealand” said Auckland Action Against Poverty co-ordinator Ricardo Menendez.​
    Experts have predicted Auckland’s homeless crisis is set to spike to worse levels this winter than any previous year.’

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/manukau-courier/103827391/homeless-man-living-in-south-auckland-hotel-costing-2000-a-week-for-tax-payers

    Neoliberal New Zealand.
    A poster boy for plutocrats.
    A basket case for its citizens.

  11. Jenny 11

    “The Banality of Haspel”
    Common Dreams, May 09, 2018

    She’s not a swamp-drainer.

    She’s a swamp thing.

    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/05/09/banality-haspel?utm_term=The%20Banality%20of%20Haspel&utm_campaign=The%20Banality%20o

  12. Incognito 12

    Capitalism at its finest:

    The vaccine was created at the Canadian government’s National Microbiology Laboratory. Only governments and charities are willing to invest in drugs for poor people. But Merck was happy to buy the rights, manufacture it and sell it for a hefty mark-up to those who will die without it.

    That’s why it’s so extraordinary that Trump should accuse countries like New Zealand of “bullying” American pharmaceutical companies. It is those companies that are exploiting sick and vulnerable people in small and developing nations around the world, whether it’s cancer sufferers in New Zealand or those struck down by ebola in the Congo.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/103851273/jonathan-milne-nz-will-not-be-bullied-by-trump-and-his-big-pharma-donors

    And another warning to be extremely wary of the CPTPP and opening the front door (and roll over out the red carpet) to let in Trump/USA.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/103850274/president-donald-trump-wants-to-build-a-drug-cartel–and-wants-nz-to-pay-for-it

    • One Two 12.1

      Greater numbers of lobbyists who spend more money buying politicians than any other industy…

      Pharmaceutical industry…

  13. Jenny 13

    Let’s get this straight:

    Israel accused Iran of having a secret nuclear weapons program.

    Israel has a secret nuclear weapons program.

    Iran complies with all treaties and inspections.

    Israel complies with none.

    Who’s the nuclear outlaw here?

    Dr. Jill Stein @DRJillStein

    http://www.tehrantimes.com/news/423263/Jill-Stein-slams-Netanyahu-s-anti-Iran-rhetoric

    • Ed 13.1

      Well said.

      • Brigid 13.1.1

        Ed, have you read ‘Deconstruction Syria’ by Chris Kanthan
        It’s an ebook, costs about $3.00. It covers alot that we already know, but quite a bit also that I wasn’t aware of.

        Edit. wrong author

        • Ed 13.1.1.1

          No I haven’t.
          Thank you for informing me.

          • Jenny 13.1.1.1.1

            I would also strongly recommend

            The Impossible Revolution
            Making Sense of the Syrian Tragedy

            By: Yassin al-Haj Saleh

            • Jenny 13.1.1.1.1.1

              I have not read this book but I had heard of it.

              I have just looked up the reviews, and they mostly agree with my own lived experience of Syria and the Arab Spring.

              Of great relevance to the Western left, including an American audience, Saleh at times speaks directly to those who haven’t lived up to their proclaimed commitment to peace and justice. While progressives in the US undeniably made a major contribution to ending the US government’s war in Vietnam, arguably prevented a US invasion of Nicaragua, and contributed to the freeing of South Africa from the tyranny of apartheid, the largest part of the US “peace and justice” movement has utterly failed the Syrian people. Indeed, in the minds of many Syrians, it has been a betrayal.
              Saleh has previously written about the willful blindness of the western left’s phony “anti-imperialism” and its chauvinist betrayal of Syria:
              “What I always found astonishing is that mainstream Western leftists know almost nothing about Syria, its society, its regime, its people, its political economy, its contemporary history…

              ……The absurdity of organizations with the honorable words “PEACE” and “ANTIWAR” in their names giving overt or tacit support to the Assad government, a regime guilty of well-documented crimes of historic proportion, is strikingly ludicrous. Particularly when their tacit support for fascism is mere silence, the shame of these groups and individuals is acute.

              But Saleh’s new book “Impossible Revolution” is not primarily focused on the international betrayal of Syria. Rather it is a collection of ten essays written over the past few years of the intense Syrian conflict. Together they trace the history from the perspective of developments intrinsic to the Syrian nation. It views the conflict both in Syrian national terms as well as with an international perspective…..

              ……Yassin al-Haj Saleh comes from eastern Syria near Raqqa, currently held by ISIS, his enemy no less than the Assad regime. During the time he was a medical student in Aleppo he joined a Marxist political organization openly critical of Hafez Assad, father of the current Syrian dictator. For this slight against the brutal dynasty, he spent 16 years of hell in a Syrian prison.
              After the 2011 popular uprising against Bashar Assad, Saleh worked with underground civil organizations in areas largely outside the dictator’s control. His wife Samara, a leading civil society organizer, was kidnapped. Her fate remains unknown. Intensely sought by both Assad and anti-democratic Islamic forces, Saleh escaped to Turkey in 2013. There he currently works as a writer and historian of the Syrian Revolution.
              Reflecting the immense joy and optimism of the enormous and largely non-violent uprising in 2011, the book’s opening essay “Revolution of the Common People” beams with the confidence and creativity of those early days. It was then the common belief that the Syrian people had forever lost their fear, and that they would never again succumb to the oppressor. Victory seemed inevitable and it seemed near, given the contemporaneous fall of dictators in Tunisia and Egypt.
              Saleh writes in this early essay: “Today there are two powers in Syria: the regime and the popular uprising.” Indeed that was the common perception in 2011. But, alas, it ain’t no more!….

              ……In a recent interview with journalist Amy Goodman on “Democracy Now”*, Saleh defines four stages of the Syrian uprising and these are very much reflected in this book “Impossible Revolution”:
              1) The period of peaceful demonstrations and the formation of the Free Syrian Army
              2) The intervention of Hezbollah, Daesh, and Salafist forces which put a Sunni-Shia conflict character on the struggle
              3) The massive increase of military force from Russia and Iran, coupled with US intervention against ISIS lead to what can be called the Imperialist stage
              4) The stage where we are now. Saleh says that this stage remains in large part undefined. Saleh calls for “dynamic new thinking, reconciliation and moderation “ within the opposition, but he reiterates his conviction that there can be no peace with justice under Assad.
              In these indecorous days for Syria it is hard to see a clear path ahead to a democratic Syria in peace. Yet in spite of the sobering reality on the Syrian ground today, the spirit of justice that has motivated the hearts and minds of millions of Syrians remains. It will undoubtedly flower again.
              For readers and peace-loving people seriously interested in hearing a cogent, honorable and extraordinarily knowledgeable Syrian voice tracing the conflict in Syria, “Impossible Revolution” is at the top of the must-read list. It is an historic achievement.

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/REEAUAPOSBETM/ref=cm_cr_othr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1849048665

              * My highlight Jenny

              The reason I have highlighted Amy Goodman and Democracy Now, is because Democracy Now is one of the few Leftist News Sites that has not succumbed to, or been overwhelmed by, the Tsunami of pro-fascist propaganda spewing out of sources as varied as Fox News and RT, and jumped on by every tinpot ignorant facebook instant expert and conspiracy theorist. These ignorant instant experts are aided in their delusions by thousands of Russian bots, further fueled by a latent but inherently racist liberal Islamophobia. Assad can’t be a fascist mass murderer, he is secular like us, he wears such beautifully tailored Western business suits, or occasionally a nice crisp Western style military uniform, with dark Raybans. Nothing like those horrid street Arabs, in their messy Keffiyehs.

            • Brigid 13.1.1.1.1.2

              Yassin al-Haj Saleh
              ” In 2012 he was granted the Prince Claus Award as “a tribute to the Syrian people and the Syrian revolution”. He was not able to collect the award, as he was living in hiding in the underground in Damascus.”

              Now isn’t that telling. Who do we know inhabited the underground bunkers in Damascus. You know, where all the weapons factories were?
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_nJsvCoIkk
              I wonder how much digging the ‘rebels’ forced him to do.

              Intellectual and activist my arse; he is a terrorist.
              And a liar.
              I wont post links to his traitorous lies

    • Cinny 13.2

      Yup it’s super messed up, Ben-Gurion was near on obsessed with weapons, especially nuclear, setting the tone well and truly,

      It’s rumoured Israel has the third largest nuclear arsenal on the planet….. but hey let’s not talk about that…. bibi’s whipping out a power point presentation on Iran, that’s much more interesting lololoooloooolzzz

      The whole situation does my freakin head in. Good link, Jill Stein, excellent.

  14. Herodotus 14

    Why is it that when we are told something hard and tangible that it then at a later date words change their meaning !!!
    Kiwibuild great concept BUT how the govt is destroying it by removing confidence that they have the skills and policies to implement this.
    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/88240/labours-immigration-policy-targets-kiwibuild-workers-and-apprentice-boost-aims-cut-20000
    Construction firms will be exempt from applying the existing labour market test to bring in up to 1,500 foreign tradespeople at any one time if employers promise to take on a local apprentice for every migrant under a new ‘KiwiBuild Visa’ proposed by Labour.
    Now we are told only yesterday that “we expect them to take on apprentices” (11:30 into the clip. Lisa Owen followed up to clarify this and the minister confirmed “we expect, hopefully”
    For ….. sake !!!! How the tone is being diluted.
    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2018/04/construction-minister-jenny-salesa-confident-kiwibuild-targets-will-be-met.html
    Just as well not many follow politics in NZ and this program is not heavily watched. Crap like this goes unnoticed. (I note the same was the case for the preceding 9 years)

  15. Ed 15

    Worth a post tomorrow.

    “There has been a huge growth in inequality, with the gap between rich and poor wider than at any time since World War Two.

    Auckland is booming – just not for everyone. An official report obtained as part of a joint Stuff/Newshub investigation reveals the yawning gaps in a prosperity index across different parts of the city. In part one of a three-part report, Carmen Parahi and Simon Shepherd examine the five areas of Auckland with the lowest social deprivation scores.”

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/05/a-tale-of-two-cities/

    • Bewildered 15.1

      Why has neoliberal msm owned by capitalist apologist even considered such a story Ed

    • AsleepWhileWalking 15.2

      Definitely should have its own post – has been continuously swept under various rugs too long.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 15.3

      Grrr…..

      “I have got to say in the last 10 years it has got worse, I have never seen the disparity as bad as it is,” says Fuli.

      We are not getting the same benefits that Auckland is getting from this rockstar economy that we have heard about.
      LOTU FULI
      She says they’ve seen more homeless and increased unemployment in the area, especially after the Fisher & Paykel appliances factory closed in 2016. The proportion of 15-64 year olds without work in her area is 10.1 per cent, nearly twice the Auckland average. Across New Zealand the rate is 4.5 per cent, the lowest in nine years.

      “It was frustrating to say to people, ‘hey we need help, we need more money here’ when the story being put out everywhere else was we’ve got this amazing growth, we have this great economy, everything’s booming you should be okay and it’s your fault if you are not.”

  16. Ad 16

    The only thing worse than the Democracts losing the 2016 US presidential election, would be losing it twice. And this time to Trump.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/no-one-has-a-leg-up-in-wide-open-2020-presidential-field-democrats-jockey-to-define-their-party–and-gain-an-advantage/2018/05/12/42ba34f2-5547-11e8-9c91-7dab596e8252_story.html?utm_term=.db06e4dce941

    With the Democrat contender field wide open, including Sanders, Warren, Biden, Booker, Bloomberg, Schultz, and more in the mix, the Democractic Party trajectory in both policy mix and leadership is more wide open than it’s been since Carter. Which is a wee way back.

    Trump’s polling is rising, all the economic fundamentals that get echoed through the media are very strong, oil is rising, and it looks like his international positioning for the US is playing pretty well domestically.

    I’d like the US to mean less, but nope, it still looms huge.
    Dems will take a miracle to get the Senate back, and something even more miraculous to get both Senate and White House back.

    Time to start praying for miracles, two years out.

  17. Good morning The Am Show Its a shame Derek and Melissa are having a hard time with the immigration department you look like good people its a shame but that’s bureaucrats for you I wish you all the best.
    I will be going to Tamaki Makaurau I will be representing my employers who have a minor problem with the Auckland Council I am sure if they treat me and my employers fairly that we will come to a positive solution to this issue.
    Many thanks to NewsHub for showing the inequality in living standard in Tamaki Makaurau Ka pai E hoa .
    Duncan that was a good yarn you handled that well. Mark Matt Watson looks exactly like one of my good bosses lol. You do look like Paul Newman .
    Ka kite ano

    • eco maori 17.1

      Good evening Newshub that is a crying shame all those shell fish in Auckland are dead because people don’t consider how venerable our wildlife is to sudden changes to there environment those property developers need to clean there act up another mess from you know who.
      Inequality’s rapid rise in New Zealand is the direct result of nationals policy’s plan and simple a plan to suppress Maori .
      Wish you all the best Penny Bright Mana Wahine .
      With the Rainbow community Eco Maori has met a few they are good humans my view is we are all human beings and we all deserve to be treated with respect no matter what the culture race or sex Ka pai
      It was a good weekend of sports Kia kaha .Ka kite ano

  18. eco maori 18

    The Crowd goes Wild the sandflys have the Waiapu coming out there eyes tonight Ka kite ano PS I’m a bit late tonight off to Auckland to nite

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