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Open Mike 15/02/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 15th, 2018 - 320 comments
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320 comments on “Open Mike 15/02/2018 ”

  1. Ed 1

    Everyone should bank with the TSB or KiwiBank and stop $ 3.5 billion going overseas.

    “New Zealand’s four major Australian owned banks paid nearly $3.5 billion in dividends to their parent companies last year – a 28 per cent jump on 2016.”b

    • solkta 1.1

      Hows the google search going?

      • Ed 1.1.1

        Ask the mullet.

        • solkta

          But it is your policy suggestion. You said that the government should “act and stop tinkering” and nationalise the banks. I asked you a range of questions about how you would want them to achieve this. You suggested then that the onus was on me to research what it is that you might want the government to do; and you said that “It has been done before in many countries” while refusing to name such a country.

          That makes you a troll by definition of this site:

          A troll is generally defined on this site as someone who clearly isn’t bothering to engage their brain when commenting. The standard is that the troll could be replaced with a dictionary of lines and phrases, and no-one would know the difference. Typically trolls do not interact with other commentators as they either ignore what others say in reply or write a reply that ignores what they said.

          I actually agree that provision of credit should not be left solely to the commercial banks, but the difference is that I wouldn’t demand the government “act” without saying what actions I wanted them to take.

          • David Mac

            I agree with Ed, we should be banking with Kiwibank.

            Forcing someone is an inefficient way of getting anyone to do anything. Much better that we be doing something with a smile and because we want to.

            I think Kiwibank are under utilising their primary point of difference. They have the clout of a government and could be creating compelling reasons for people to deal with Kiwibank. Not because they have to but because they want to.

            • solkta

              “Forcing someone is an inefficient way of getting anyone to do anything.”

              So in fact you disagree with Ed in the context of replying to my post, which was referring to his statements yesterday that the government should nationalise the banks. It seems he has changed his tune after not being able to say what he meant by this.

          • KJT

            The UK has Nationalised Banks, in the past. Along with at least one US State, North Dakota (Though I am not sure if you could call that “Nationalisation?).

            • solkta

              The UK nationalised or part nationalised a couple of banks that were on the edge of collapse. That is a completely different thing to nationalising ALL banks in a market where all those banks are very healthy. In fact, Ed wants to nationalise the banks here because they are doing so well.

        • Stunned Mullet

          I spoke to Google Ed, they said you were a dalcop.

      • mauī 1.1.2

        Oh please, Ed doesn’t need to listen to your pesky demands.

    • chris73 1.2

      I was with Kiwibank but I went to TSB as they had a good deal on mortgages at the time but when I ran into some difficulties TSB treated me pretty shabbily.

      Once the earthquake hit and the value of my house increased suddenly they couldn’t do enough for me but I switched to ANZ and have got a good deal with them so why should I go back to a bank that doesn’t care about me

      You want to be treated like a doormat go right ahead, I’ll stick with ANZ (until I find something better)

      • Ed 1.2.1


        The neoliberal generation.
        All about me.
        No care for society.

        They grew up in the heyday of neoliberalism and are devotees of this selfish cult.

        Chris (born in 73 ) is 44.
        James, who ‘doesn’t care’, is 48.

        • chris73

          You’re right I should accept being treated shabbily by a bank, I should be a doormat because “NZ”, how about Ed that NZ banks actually learn to treat customers properly and try keeping customers with good deals or do NZ banks not make any money

          Absolutely correct that if I’m treated poorly I’ll go elsewhere because I have a choice, the NZ banks have a choice and the NZ banks chose to treat me shabbily but ANZ chose to treat me well

          • Ed

            Ponder this concept for a day or so and reflect on this quote.

            “First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
            Because I was not a Socialist.

            Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
            Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

            Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
            Because I was not a Jew.

            Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Reductio ad Hitlerum 🙄

            • solkta

              The standard is that the troll could be replaced with a dictionary of lines and phrases, and no-one would know the difference.

              Typically trolls do not interact with other commentators as they either ignore what others say in reply or write a reply that ignores what they said.

          • Ed

            Your last comment made the point

            5 I
            2 me
            0 we

        • Keepcalmcarryon

          Ed I agree with your sentiment re bank profits belonging to NZ, but your posts re Chris and James are shabby.
          No need to post others personal details, also if you want to open the age warfare can of worms I sure wouldn’t bash the gen x ers especially if I was baby boomer( honestly don’t know if you are or not). Which generation got free education state housing and super? Gen x and onwards have to think of themselves, something those before did not.

        • cleangreen

          100% fact there Ed.

          I see it the same way.

          The 30- 40 something generation don’t know about “Pay it forward” do they so we have them pushing a “dog eats dog” philosophy so we are in for a rough ride if jacinda cant get us back to the “caring society” again.

          Jacinda needs to “lead by example” on all her promises for a Government that is a warm, caring, inclusive, transparent, listening to the voices of all people, – Government ‘that will look after all provincial regions equally’ and then she will shut national out of contention.

        • James

          with home loans I go with who has the package that works the best for me. A kiwibank loan (last time I looked) was in the high 10’s of thousands more expensive over the term of the loan.

          Thus if you choose to pay that much money just to bank with a kiwi bank you are financially stupid (which could explain Ed’s facilitation with people being paid). That additional cost is simply interest.

          If you wanted to do good with it you would be better off keeping the $ and donating or using it locally for good causes locally as opposed to paying considerably more because it’s a kiwi bank.

        • James

          It’s my birthday coming up – some nice cuff links would be a beautiful present.

      • millsy 1.2.2

        I found ANZ to be like WINZ when I asked then for a home loan. TSB were much easier to deal with. Just waiting to hear if they will let me use the equity in my house to clear some debt that I cannot get out from under (and yes, I blame myself for the poor choices I made there. Not all lefties blame others).

        • infused

          Wait until

          * You try to leave
          * You get random debts placed on your account for no reason
          * Ask to get statements which take weeks for them to come up with
          * Go though a call center for everything
          * Try to use their god awful website and mobile banking application

          Seriously, fuck tsb.

          • millsy

            * You try to leave

            I dont intend to leave. Too much of a hassle.

            * You get random debts placed on your account for no reason

            Not too sure what you mean. The debts that go on my account, are placed for transparent reasons

            * Ask to get statements which take weeks for them to come up with

            I can go on the website and download them in minutes

            * Go though a call center for everything

            They are working on it,

            * Try to use their god awful website and mobile banking application

            I found it to be fine. Room for improvement, but they are getting there. Their 2-factor authentication pisses me off tho.

            • In Vino

              Right-wingers necessarily dislike banks not owned by the big conglomerates, and will make up whatever crap about them.

              • infused

                Fuck off idiot. I’ve had their managers ringing me about this shit. One of their staff was fired for being so fucking inept.

                They borrow all their money from overseas btw. Get a clue.

            • infused

              – You cannot download a years worth of statements from their website
              – They are not working on it – they’ve done this for the last 7 years

              • Macro

                “You cannot download a years worth of statements from their website”
                And I thought you were somehow involved in IT?
                I just checked to see if you statement above was correct and I download and printed my entire current account for last year in seconds.
                Of course you can get your statements mailed to you every month if you are somehow incapable of downloading them.

      • Macro 1.2.3

        Well chris – I have been a customer of TSB for years now and have never had a problem with them. The fact that there is no bank office nearby where I live has never been a problem when I need to deposit money nor when I travel either in NZ or overseas.
        TSB consistently scores highly wrt customer satisfaction and I have to say you are the first that I have ever heard express a negative opinion. Perhaps that might say more about you than about TSB.

        • infused

          lol. their survey is total bullshit. their ex-wellington manager told me they remove negative replies to their surveys.

          You will need to see a branch for anything related to your home loans. There’s no other way around it.

          • millsy

            You will need to see a branch for anything related to your home loans. There’s no other way around it.

            An inconvience, yet, but whats wrong with that. As long as they dont act like WINZ I am fine.

          • Macro

            I don’t have home loans
            And when I did I was able to negotiate those over the phone. As I do with my investments.

            • infused

              You cannot do anything over the phone like that, stop lying. If it requires a signature, you need your ass on a chair in their office.

              • Incognito

                Nope, you go through an authentication process over the phone and everything is recorded. No face-to-face meetings or branch visits required (with BNZ).

                • Macro

                  And infused was lying when he said that TSB tampered with the survey returns.
                  The surveys are notdone by TSB but by a not-for-profit consumer organisation.
                  Infused is full of bullshit

              • Macro

                Of course you can!
                They have my signature on file, they can identify who I am over the phone, (I have transferred 10’s of thousands of dollars from off shore into another bank in the same manner) and if I go through a proper authentication process – signing in front of a JP or Police officer who can verify my identity – and that is faxed or emailed. it is no different to going into the office and signing in front of a bank official.

          • Macro

            TSB Bank has won the Consumer NZ People’s Choice award for Banking for the second year in a row.

            People’s Choice winners are identified through detailed analysis of Consumer NZ surveys. The banking survey is a nationally representative sample of 1085 Kiwis aged 18 and over and asks respondents to rate their main bank across a number of variables.

            To achieve the People’s Choice award, a brand must stand out in terms of customer satisfaction. TSB Bank shares the 2017 award with two other New Zealand owned banks but we the top the overall customer satisfaction result at 87%.

            So the TSB owns Consumer NZ?
            Consumer NZ is an independent, not for profit organisation.https://www.consumer.org.nz/


      • Cinny 1.2.4

        Re Banks… locals banks sponsor local events, big shout out to the NBS (Nelson Building Society) for supporting so many many local events in our region.

        The larger banks ie BNZ do not, thanks for the offer of your logo emblazzened BNZ marque, but that’s all you offer as support in our community, doesn’t matter how many hundreds of thousands we put through your bank. Or how many millions/billions you make from those using the BNZ.

        This year we will be moving all of our organisations accounts from the BNZ over to the NBS for that reason.

        Personally I’ve been with KiwiBank for many years and they’ve been brilliant.

        • Leonhart Hunt

          There is also the AUST tax issue. NZ and AUST have a tax treaty which means a aust registered entity payes taxes to the aust tax office not NZ’s. (like recently highlighted apple 27mil earnings in nz with $0 tax paid in nz.

      • KJT 1.2.5

        Agree. TSB didn’t treat me at all well, either.

        It should be noted they get their funds, just like Ozzie banks, from the international banking system, not the New Zealand Government. So you are not necessarily keeping banking within New Zealand by using them.

        Funding a New Zealand bank from Government borrowing as a, non profit, co-operative would remove the offshore banks altogether, as they will be unable to compete.

        The reaction from overseas moneyed interests however, will make Greece look tame. Though Iceland seems to have got away with it, for now?

        Note that; Suddam Hussain was toppled not because of anything he did as a Dictator. The west supports much worse. But because he threatened the US economy, with low interest loans to other African States and the bypassing the petrodollar.

        • Exkiwiforces

          And he wanted to use the Euro for trading his oil shipments instead of the US dollar as the Euro at the time was trading better than US and this would further weakling the US economy ATM.

    • Antoine 1.3

      Why would I want money to be in NZ rather than Australia?

      Are Australians less deserving than New Zealanders? Do we want to take their money away??


      • Keepcalmcarryon 1.3.1

        What is a “country”Antoine? Is it a set of lines outlining a land mass or something more? Should a government govern for its citizens or all the citizens of the world?
        Why wouldn’t kiwis want the benefits of their hard work to stay in NZ?

      • Zorb6 1.3.2

        If you drill down into who the major sharehoders and bond holders of the big 4 banks are, you may be surprised.

        • One Two

          It should not be of surprise value…

          The banks are not, Australian owned..

          They are owned, just like the vast majority of listed companies around the world…’owned’ and controlled by a handful of entities…

        • Ed

          They are large global finance institutions

      • David Mac 1.3.3

        The cost of getting my kid to an Aussie school would be astronomical. It would take 2 days for a policeman to show up.

        I can see sense in my bank fees building NZ schools and paying a NZ based Policeman.

        • Antoine

          (Puzzled) Your bank fees go to the bank, not to pay for schools or police.


          • David Mac

            The bank is owned by the same people that build schools and pay policemen. You and me.

            • Antoine

              Kiwibank pays SFA dividends back to its owners.


              • David Mac

                Yeah, it makes SFA. That’s why I’m pitching as I am. Just 20% of that 5 billion would benefit all NZers rather than just those with Aussie bank shares.

                • Ed

                  Any self respecting citizen in a self respecting country would be appalled at the loss of $5 billion to wealthy overseas interests.
                  To read the comments of many here shows how low we have fallen since Douglas betrayed this country.

      • savenz 1.3.4

        ‘Why would I want money to be in NZ rather than Australia?’
        Hope you don’t need to go to a NZ hospital or a road anytime soon.

    • cleangreen 1.4

      yep Ed been with TSB for 15yrs now.

      Very happy so I recommend for all to switch to TSB.

      Nice staff.

    • solkta 1.5

      I’ve banked with Kiwibank since it started, but my house is freehold and I don’t have significant savings so easy for me to do. Their Free Up accounts don’t have fees so all it costs me is the odd other bank ATM charge and card replacement costs.

    • infused 1.6

      TSB is the worst bank in NZ next to Kiwibank.


      TSB is not NZ owned.

      • You_Fool 1.6.1

        I think you have never dealt with ANZ if you think Kiwibank & TSB are the worst… Or ASB when the people trying their best are tied up by stupid rules from above

        • JohnSelway

          I’m with ANZ and have nothing but great service.

          I’m of the opinion that individual results vary no matter which bank you are with

          • You_Fool

            YMV indeed, but the vast vast majority of feedback I have ever heard from people that have dealt with ANZ (including myself way back when they took over National Bank) is that they are horrible. There are very few people that seem to have positive dealings.

            I can’t remember where (so this is just my own musings) but I am sure that the ANZ has consistently been at the bottom of any customer satisfaction surveys/rankings for NZ banks

            • JohnSelway

              Be that as it may I’m a happy customer with no plans to move.

              (though I did get a home loan through Kiwibank as they were offering the best deal at the time and they were hopeless – or at least the woman managing the account was hopeless).

        • savenz

          I’d vote ANZ the worst customer service and least ethical bank in NZ.

        • savenz

          ASB switched to a one manager 10000’s of customers and all decisions are centrally managed via email only. Time frames are long for decisions andmanagers change constantly compared with when they were not trying to squeeze every last cent out of NZ.

        • infused

          ANZ are great.

      • greywarshark 1.6.2

        I understand that TSB is one that is totally under NZ control. Who do you think owns TSB?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.6.3

        Sorry to see your TSB experience was a poor one, Infused, but why lie about the 100% NZ-owned and independent TSB bank?


        On the recommendation of another satisfied customer, and the strength of their zero-fees accounts, I switched to TSB about 17 years ago. They’ve been great. I like that when you phone them with a request, a person always answers the phone (no machines, no waiting).

        One thing I don’t like is their prize draws – would prefer slightly interest rates on balances than the chance to win a car. If I wanted to gamble, I’d by Lotto tickets.

      • Ed 1.6.4

        How can it be worse than banks that take $3.5 billion out of our economy every year?
        Think about what we could do with our hospitals with 3.5 billion.

    • weka 1.7

      Credit Unions are another good option to support local banking.

    • bwaghorn 1.8

      I think you need $5k to open an account with tsb.

    • cleangreen 2.1

      Put this CEO Norris in stocks and give us all rotten tomatoes to throw at him Ed.

      He needs a strong dose of ridicule so no one else comes along as he has to suck up to a corrupt leader like he did with (John Key) to take our public money to get a sweetheart deal to build this “convention centre” while also being allowed to install many more gambling machines.

      He has blood on his hands this evil man.

      • James 2.1.1

        I know business is not your strong point but if you don’t even know the difference between a ceo and a board chairman I would suggest night classes before you start commenting on financial and business matters.

        • alwyn

          I think he should start with remedial reading lessons. Then he could continue with learning how to respond to people who query the source of some of his bizarre claims. I am still waiting for him to tell me when Stephen Joyce was the Minister of Broadcasting.

          Open Mike 26/01/2018

          • James

            That would be for the same 9 years Gerry Brownlee was the minister of climate change (according to a certain poster in here – who refuses to admit they were wrong)

        • Barfly

          Didn’t the last National Government kill off night classes James?

          Do you not pay attention to what those you cheer for actually do?

          • James

            There are still night classes – just not all the yoga classes paid for my the government.

          • alwyn

            “Kill off night classes”
            A lot of schools used the Governments cutting out the funding off hobby classes to scrap all the courses they ran. They used the excuse that people wouldn’t be able to afford them.
            Their clients weren’t given any option. The schools often didn’t want them because it meant that rooms would have to be available after 3.30pm and the staff couldn’t all head for home. Someone would have to be available to make sure that the placed was securely locked up after the classes finished in the evening.
            A number of the more civic minded schools certainly kept them going and they remain very popular.
            What would you like to learn. Here are a couple of options from schools in the Wellington area.
            Wellington High School. A great school serving their community and the only one I have been personally involved with.
            Tawa College

            • Molly

              Yet a PriceWaterHouse Cooper study in 2009 apparently calculated a return of $16 for every dollar spent on ACE.

              The benefits of your “hobby courses” are long-term and more than just improving individual finances.

              Knowing this the National led government more than decimated the funding, and then (without any kind of cost/benefit analysis), created the Inspire scholarship, increased funding to private schools, created charter schools and required beneficiaries to attend “ready to work” workshops ad nauseum.

              Gives a fairly clear view of what “education” means to National.

            • Molly

              BTW, had a look at your courses links and you are right – a comprehensive and impressive list offered by Wellington High School, but the prices remove lot of potential participants. Night school was notable for it’s accessibility.

              Tawa College’s prices are more in line.

              I would consider these to be anomalies now, rather than the norm. The removal of funding reduced the numbers of classes offered, increased the costs of those classes, and reduced the access to community education for many NZers.

              Pointing out a couple of comprehensive programmes does not change that.

              • alwyn

                I would agree that the prices might discourage some people.
                However I don’t think that the removal of funding was the cause of the classes going. That was a deliberate choice of many of the school organisations who did not give anyone who was attending their classes the option of paying a bit more.
                They used the excuse of the cutting of funding as an excuse to dump them because they found them a nuisance to provide.
                They even dumped the courses where the subsidy was not cut. That included the core literacy and numeracy options and te reo.

                Have a look at this extract from a story at the time

                “The Government’s $13.1 million funding cut for Adult Community Education, announced in the 2009 Budget, has seen the number of community-based courses plummet.
                More than 100 of 212 schools offering continuing education last year have pulled out and just 24 are still receiving government funding, with another 24 in “partnerships” with funded schools.
                Maryke Fordyce, president of the Continuing Education Association through Schools, said it was yet to be seen how many classes would survive. Last year 200,000 people attended subsidised night classes in schools, but only 25,000 places were subsidised this year.”

                They cut about $65/person and HALF the schools immediately dumped them. Do you really think that cutting the subsidy for cake-decorating classes was so terrible?

                • Leonhart Hunt

                  “Do you really think that cutting the subsidy for cake-decorating classes was so terrible?”Yes, One of the great things about night classes is that the unemployed and sick could attend them,

                  For the unemployed this offered one of the only ways to get re-training, not to mention the social interaction.

                  For the sick, many course were more accessible, countering the issue of social isolation (if your unfamiliar with this its the human reaction to “hide” to cut yourself off when sick/unwell)

                  Course with no obvious financial benefit like “cake decorating” (a small percentage may have gone on working in bakery’s so the skills do have some economic benefit) have a social (social isolation is a big topic and a major driver of the benefit trap) and learning aspect and can be a great way to get people back into education.

                  that 13.5mil unspent now probably cost’s the govt 2 – 3 times that in mental health support (unfortunately I have no evidence to back this up, Thier is UK study http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2016-09-20-health-benefits-evening-classes-revealed) but NZ has diffrent social issues than the UK so the study’s stats may not apply.

                • Molly

                  “Do you really think that cutting the subsidy for cake-decorating classes was so terrible?”
                  Agree with Leonhart. Yes.

                  The social interaction and accessibility is one of the primary benefits to adult education.

                  And yes, schools may have “dumped” them for the reasons you state, but they are already underresourced and teachers undervalued. It amazes me how often people expect those who are already doing so much, to do more.

                  Link to a report from 2011, into the funding cuts puts in clearly:

                  2.1 Recommendations:
                  ACE funding for night classes should be re-instated to:

                  Empower communities to provide learning opportunities to meet local needs

                  Enhance adult learning opportunities and personal development options

                  Facilitate community networks

                  Provide career development openings. “

                  You also haven’t addressed the cost benefit analysis of ACE, and the failure to perform any cost benefit analyses on the education experiments they did fund. (Note: Made a mistake in previous comment Aspire scholarship fund – not Inspire)

        • One Two

          James, as you don’t know the difference between honesty and truth (agitators plight)..

          You’re not in a position to suggest that anyone else should ‘take classes’…

        • adam

          Now the insult is to attend night classes, that the last national government closed down. You’re truly a priceless amoral scrub aren’t you james.

          • Ed

            He is. And I wish he would stop loitering on this site.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              The standard is that the troll could be replaced with a dictionary of lines and phrases, and no-one would know the difference. Typically trolls do not interact with other commentators as they either ignore what others say in reply or write a reply that ignores what they said.

              Hey, déjà vu all over again!

              • Ed

                I interact regularly with other posters.
                I ignore for the most part pointless or aggressive posts

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Google is your friend.

                  • Ed

                    Yes you have made my point.
                    I won’t do work for lazy posters who are merely seeking to derail and distract from the fundamental issue.
                    And we have better things to discuss.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      So what’s your excuse for everyone else who asks you to expand on your drive-by comments?

    • savenz 2.2

      I’ve heard Russell McVeigh has a poor reputation for honesty, I’d avoid.

  2. Morning Breakfast people I whatched Te Karere last nite.
    Many thanks to Ian Hutson he Tells the story of the reality of being a maori cultured person in Aotearoa and in reality we get the short end of the stick all the time
    even some of my Whano whom are quite successful and have received the short end of the stick are in denial thats how brain washed the people of NZ are NZ is a fair and Just society YEA RIGHT.
    He says that crime is dropping and confirms my statements on that subject.
    They are still predicting OUR Maori prison population to continue to rise .
    The Ngaru tai / Tidal wave of Maori prison population that has increased under shonky key and bills 9 YEARS this will take time to subside .
    So ECO MAORI says to all the Maori cultured people on Papatuanuku keep your noses clean and make YOUR tepuna proud of you and be proud of yourselves .Then in time our Maori prison population will start dropping .
    There is still talk of building a billion $ prison I say spend the money on improving the peoples and the mokos lives instead of spending all this money locking them up is the humane way to solve this problem
    Its not ROCKET SCIENCE its common sence .
    The Salvation Army is the Indigenous protection society and ECO MAORI is backing the Salvation Army 100% please make donations to the Salvation Army to help Tonga in her time of need
    Good interview with the CTV building collapsing during the Christchurch earth quake that scenario is the neo libral western laws being made by the wealthy to protect the wealthy what a farcial system . There is a another scenario running in Tonga at the moment the neo libral civil servants MAFT pandering to Trump and trying to stop the reality that Global Warming is pokeing the people of Papatuanuku in the eyes .They are telling TVNZ 1 Pacific reporter what she can and cannot report in Tonga Barbra Dreaver told MAFT were to go you go Lady Mana wahine
    Kia kaha. Ka kite ano Here is the link to Ians from the salvation armys interview


    • Leonhart Hunt 3.1

      The idea of incarceration as rehabilitation is ridiculous, it always has been. But its supported by the public because of two ideas.

      1) The criminal must “pay” by suffering hardship for their crime.
      2) They are a danger to society and must be removed from it.

      1. is understandable but misguided, no one pays for crime by being made to suffer you pay for crime by making reparations/recompense, obviously some crimes (like murder) this is an intangible figure (although there are novel solutions for this like indentured servitude), but in many crimes a value can be associated to the crime, but this is never met as we ruin people lives for the sake of “justice”

      2. Can be true, but not in most cases and the people we are talking about should be in psychiatric wards receiving treatment not sitting in a 6 by 4 box.

      IN our current system we lock people up for Years, without much support (apart from Drug & alcohol programmes and recently a literary program) then release them when their time is up with a bit of money sometimes (see pathway to freedom programme – many are not eligible)

      Without completing the pathway programme, according to reports you get dropped of at the local bus station with a ticket back to your hometown (sometimes) and are told to goto MSD for support (you are still subject to a stand down period) sometimes assigned housing for a short term is provided (depending on demand) other times they get released and… nothing, nowhere to live, no support apart from overworked and underfunded corrections departments.

      NZ has a 65% recidivism rate because we do not reintegration ex-prisoners back into society and give little/no opportunities for future employment. If you have a conviction, most employers will not even look at your CV.

      Are we want to jail more people? For longer and longer using the disproven and failed notion that longer sentences reduce crime? yes apparently, because they must pay… but never actually “pay”

      • Leonhart Hunt 3.1.1

        by “pay” its not just financial but moral restitution should be considered as well. In the form of teaching & community work, public speaking etc. To atone for the moral implications of the crime not just financial.

        cavate, some crimes are heinous and you cannot “pay” but this should not stop an attempt to even if it takes the person’s entire life trying to atone, this would be justice.

        sitting in a box is not. (at a cost of $110,000 per year to the taxpayer)

  3. logie97 4

    1080 – just wondering.
    Yesterday while driving from Colville north to Fletchers Bay on the Coromandel, we noticed a lot of warning signs advising visitors to be aware of 1080 baits in the area.
    “Carcasses and baits could be fatal for dogs.”
    We saw several hawks feeding on the carcasses of possums as we drove.
    Were those birds likely to be affected?

    • Cinny 4.1

      I’d say yes at a guess, I know around these parts if there has been a drop people avoid trout fishing (as trout can eat rodents) as well as hunting (especially with dogs) for a few months due to that reason.

      It would be hard to know if the possums were roadkill or 1080 victims if they were on the side of the road. But at a guess they would more likely be roadkill, but anything is possible.

    • weka 4.2

      Hawks can be poisoned as by-kill from other kinds of baits. Not sure about 1080.

  4. cleangreen 5

    The toxic assault on the national party has begun today with News hub siding with Judith Collins as their listeners top choice for National party leader.

    Now we have a toxic leader for the National Party emerging as an aggressive leader.

    We are now seeing a “generational shift” says News-hub but that made me laugh as Labour have already set the standard for the generational shift but it seems that national are taking the same direction but Collins is an old woman isn’t she?

    Wake up national and new-hub also will you.

    Interesting year ahead with all this toxicity emerging in the national party.

    Looking good for a second term for labour now.

    • Draken 5.1

      Perhaps like others, I voted in that poll for Judith Collins simply because I want to see the National party implode.

      Or maybe I’m sinister like that.

  5. Whispering Kate 6

    Interesting hearing David Parker on RNZ this morning saying the Government would not be bailing out Fletcher’s. He said the shareholders knew they were taking a risk with investing in shares and the Government were not about to bail them out. Sounded pretty “to the point” with no arguments. Maybe there is going to be an easing on Corporate Welfare – interesting indeed.

    • Blackcap 6.1

      why would Fletcher’s need bailing out anyway? They are still going to make a profit this year. Just a lot less than last year. It is only the B&I division that is causing trouble. The other divisions are humming along. Any talk of bail outs etc is just media being silly.

      • Sanctuary 6.1.1

        bail them out, nationalise them and call them something like… The Ministry of Works!

        • Ed

          Totally agree.
          This is an opportunity for the government to assume much greater control of housing in NZ.

    • Ad 6.2

      Clearly the Australians and Chinese will be building Twyford’s houses and railways.

      • David Mac 6.2.1

        The cycles of life, Fletchers grew their teeth building Savage’s houses. Fewer pokie emporiums and more houses ain’t so bad.

      • alwyn 6.2.2

        No, this will merely provide Twyford with a convenient excuse.
        When he is asked about the failure to build any affordable houses in the next couple of years he will probably claim something like.

        “Everything was on track and we were going to greatly exceed the 100,000 target but Fletcher Building deliberately sabotaged the plan in collusion with the New Zealand National Party. They are saboteurs and are totally responsible for the total lack of progress by our great coalition. Jacinda will be on the cover of Women’s Weekly again though so the masses will be appeased”.

        • David Mac

          Hahahaha, nah he doesn’t need to do that. He need only stick to the story that all incoming governments trot out.

          ‘Now that we can have an indepth look at the situation we’ve discovered that things are much worse than we were led to believe.’

          It’s a line that gets cut through because it can be applied to all facets of government and leaves dirt sitting with the new opposition.

          • alwyn

            It is a perfectly reasonable for a while. If things are in a mess, as they were when National took over in 1990 and 2008 it can be quite valid.

            Rather harder for Labour of course, since things were in general in good shape in 1999 and 2017. They can claim it about housing for a bit of course. That is the one thing where National took their eye off the ball.

            It does wear a bit thin though after a while. I would say that nothing is unchangeable in about 2 years. If you haven’t made major strides after that time it becomes your fault and you deserve the blame.
            The time varies with the situation. By now Labour should have started buying lots of land in Auckland for housing.
            And they shouldn’t be wasting hundreds of millions on the America’s Cup.

            People on the loony left are still blaming Roger Douglas for crying out loud. He ceased to have any power 30 years ago. If you didn’t like what he did you are perfectly entitled to ask every Government since that time why they didn’t change it. None of them can say it was his fault any longer and that they really truly wanted to do something else. They can hold their heads up and say they didn’t change it because he was right. That is what they all really thought and they should be honest enough to say so

            • Psycho Milt

              Rather harder for Labour of course, since things were in general in good shape in 1999 and 2017.

              By what deranged standard could the housing mess National left for Labour to clean up be described as “in good shape?”

              • alwyn

                Why don’t you read what I said? Is it too hard.
                My precise words, in my comment you are replying to, were
                “They can claim it about housing for a bit of course. That is the one thing where National took their eye off the ball”
                How can you possibly interpret that as saying that “housing was in good shape”?
                And read it carefully. I didn’t say that Labour could talk about “Housing a bit”. I said “FOR a bit” meaning a bit of time

                • Hornet

                  and…the housing mess, and yes it is a mess, didn’t just appear under national’s watch. This is a failure of successive governments, and it isn’t going to be fixed anytime soon.

                  • Leonhart Hunt

                    it could be. very very quickly. But it would annoy alot of people.

                    1) Ban Airbnb without a licence as a commercial business (with taxes, inspections the same as a motel etc applied)
                    2) Eminent domain any house that is left uninhabited for 6 months with regular tenants living in the home, this includes holidays homes that are left unoccupied (to stop people calling their auckland land banks properties holidays homes)
                    3) Introduce a CGT of 10% one home per adult 18+ (must have citizenship) owner (who owns at least 50% of the property) exempt but compounding per home owned 1 = 0, 2 = 10% 3 = 20% etc.
                    4) Scrap letting fees
                    5) Reevaluate the TT so some of its more controversial decision have a modicum of sense (like “no dogs” but tenant can have dogs then damage the property and not pay)
                    6) introduced a govt funded and managed Tenancy “check” for both landlords and tenants to enter good/bad data at the end of each tenancy.
                    7) Make civil enforcement more binding and more realistic, Example a tenant who can damage a property can be charged with paying back for all the damage but can then turn around and say ok $5 a week for 100 years.
                    8) Landlords who “double dip” should be charged with fraud (claim damage costs from the tenant and then get the same from insurance)
                    9) mandatory renters insurance (maybe even built into the tenancy agreement, with a liability cover)
                    10) Extreme – circumstances) Create the ability for a landlord/tenant to be stripped of the ability to rent out a property in case of landlord fraud, multiple breaches etc.

                    • Hornet

                      I agree with some of those suggestions, but in reality the biggest problem has been the failure to plan by local councils, aided and abetted by inept governments. That has led to a shortfall of housing, which pushes up prices and makes housing unaffordable. Wham. In Auckland we now have the indecent spectacle of developers building multi-story boxes to pack people in to a level of density that is utter madness. Add that to AT’s obsession with building cycling lanes that no-one uses, and the Council’s obsession with building public transport infrastructure in a city not designed for it, and we have a right mess.

                    • Leonhart Hunt

                      @hornet your right, but blame is pointless it really doesn’t matter whose fault is it, what matters is what we do about it right now!

                      Yet, every story every political statement is just more talk, from national who needed more committees to labour who are still in committees, adding to the housing stock is a long term goal we need radical action right now or this problem is going to go critical – rent for some is 60% of their wages, whats going to happen while we add to housing stock slowly (as building takes time) and rent becomes 70%, 80%, 90% of wages, when people can’t afford food due to housing costs. (which is already happening accord to salvation army report)

                      Parliament should be locked in until they pass some emergency measure to curb this crisis, because its pure greed thats forcing rents/prices up, nothing more.

                • cleangreen

                  Everything you write is hard to figure Alwyn;;

                  As you often make no sense at all, – like your mate David Bennett showed also today in parliament as my mind recalls some sweet memories of utu coming back on your friend David Bennett, – read this event for the record;

                  I had to laugh today watching parliament when the ex Chair of the Transport and industrial relations committee chair David Bennett got up to speak on a dairy farmer bill and blamed the labour coalition for stripping out his rights to discuss the bill as “a erosion of democracy”

                  I recall when we assembled a 10240 petition and presented it to the steps of the ruling National government in 2012 to give to David Bennett as he was the chair of the Transport select committee then and he refused our democratic rights to speak in front of his committee about our mothballed Gisborne rail.

                  So it was so satisfying to see that David Bennett got the same feeling that he gave us of indignation when he refused our ‘democratic’ right to speak.

                  Utu to you David Bennett.

                  • alwyn

                    I really don’t understand why you think I might be interested in this.
                    However, if I have your attention perhaps you will recall the claim that you made about Stephen Joyce some weeks ago.
                    Have you had time to track down the source of this yarn?
                    My request to you is available here.

                    Open Mike 26/01/2018

                    Perhaps you have forgotten. It is apparently the mark of a troll to put comments in without links and also to ignore requests to provide information to justify such claims when asked.
                    Doesn’t that make you a troll?
                    Justification or withdrawal would seem to be in order on your part..

                    • cleangreen

                      You have ‘selective reading disorder’ like your bosses in the hapless national party.

                      So no point responding to your dribble is there?

                    • alwyn

                      It is a very simple matter to admit you are wrong you know.
                      I do it whenever I make a mistake.
                      Mind you, I do it on very rare occasions. I guess it would take a lot of your time though as you routinely tell lies.
                      Come on. Admit you stuffed up. Even if it is on only one occasion out of your many errors that you admit to the lapse.
                      You really will feel so much better. Correcting your foolish mistakes may even become a habit.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              By what deranged standard could the mess National left in 1999 be described as “in good shape”?

              Unemployment close to 8%, Employment Contracts Act, a double dip(ton) recession, ACC privatised, Max Bradford, growing inequality at a (for then) all-time high…

            • Ed

              Yes Douglas deserves trial, judgement, conviction and a sentence that would deter future treasonous behaviour.

              • cleangreen

                100% Ed I stand at the door on this as these treasonous animals need to be taken to order for their crimes against the people.

            • David Mac

              I think it’s unreasonable to toss out the garage band and expect U2 to take the stage. We’ll get another garage band, they’ll just play a genre of music I enjoy.

              Those that enjoyed the ousted garage band’s blues renditions will of course claim ‘These new reggae guys are muck, I was expecting U2.’

              Yes, Twyford should be gobbling up land, he is isn’t he? I understand there is an announcement in the pipeline.

              I don’t share most lefties opinion of Rogernomics. I think changes were inevitable, unfortunately he administered eye surgery with a bread knife. I’m not a fan of import tariffs. I see them in the same light as WFF. Yes families need more money, in an ideal NZ I think it should be coming from thriving businesses rather than Beehive kickbacks.

            • KJT

              Excellent satire, again, Alwyn.

              Since when did National leave anything in good shape?

              As for Douglas’s, so called reforms. They were a failure by any measure.

              The economy is 30% smaller than it would have been without the “reforms”.
              Including the billions removed by the asset stripping he enabled since.

              Forgotten 87 already?

              • alwyn

                “The economy is 30% smaller”.
                No doubt you are able to explain the manner in which you come to that conclusion?
                And you will also tell us why every Government since then has been sensible enough not to change any of the reforms to any degree.

                • KJT

                  Just one of the very many references I base that on.
                  NZ GDP dropped in the same period that Australia’s gained 16.8% and the OECD average was 19.7%. Hardly a success even by right wing terms such as GDP.

                  The rise in inequality, poverty and the drop in incomes was obvious to the rest of us.

                  Wage incomes dropped more than 30% against Australia’s and have never recovered.


                  “Another complication is that any improvements from the reforms are dominated by the macroeconomic stagnation evident in Table 2. While over the 7-year period from 1984 the OECD expanded its volume GDP by 19.7 percent, and Australia, facing a deteriorating external environment, expanded by 16.8 per cent, New Zealand GDP contracted in absolute terms.

                  Unlike that of the 1966-76 period, this poor performance cannot be explained by the external situation. In fact the terms of trade improved slightly over the period. Macroeconomic policy, which concentrated on disinflation, bears much of the responsibility. Monetary policy was tightened in some sense faster than fiscal policy, resulting in an over-valuation of the exchange rate at the same time as protection and export subsidies were being removed. That combination seriously damaged the tradable sector which had been the engine of growth in the New Zealand economy”.

                  Anyone who thinks the Douglas reforms were a success, where we bent over and unilaterally invited the outside world to fuck us, is delusional.

                  And no Government since has shifted them since. For the very simple reason that it suits the very few, extremely wealthy people, and the big corporates, that fund the two major parties when they obediently carry it on, just fine.

                  • alwyn

                    I’m sorry.
                    I was looking forward to what you would say but when I see that the link you provide is to something that was written a generation ago, in 1994, I don’t really think I can be bothered going through it.
                    I am, or was, an economist. I am not an historian though and things that happened in the period from 1984 to 1994 are just that, history.

                    I do think the Douglas reforms were necessary and have provided New Zealand with a much brighter future than would have been the case with the Muldoon policies.
                    I also do not see where you first claim, that NZ GDP dropped, can possibly come from, particularly at the drop you claim.
                    Here is one representation of it
                    GDP today is much higher than it was when Roger got started.

                    • KJT

                      The proof is in the fact that NZ did a lot worse than other countries, such as Australia, that did not throw out the baby with the bath water.
                      I have many more references, some of which I have discussed, and given on this site over the years.
                      However writing more detail will have to wait until i am not busy at work.

                      As for Muldoon, it is debatable, but cutting reliance on expensive oil imports was a good idea at the time. I don’t think many people expected the USA to invade a few more countries to stop the sky rocketing oil prices. I was one of the majority who voted for Labour at the time BTW. I still see Muldoon, as the last National party leader who actually cared about NZ’s future. Rather than adding PM to their CV. Or making a fortune afterwards.
                      Many think big projects made fortunes for their private owners, as did asset sales in general. Showing that they could have paid back the borrowing over time. If they hadn’t been given away in the fire sale by the ideological vandals who caused Rogernomics.

                    • KJT

                      “I do think the Douglas reforms were necessary and have provided New Zealand with a much brighter future than would have been the case with the Muldoon policies”.

                      I did not say that GDP had dropped, just that the increase was hugely lower than other OECD countries, that didn’t adopt Rogernomics/Thatcherism with anywhere near the same enthusiasm. You double the population it is going to rise, anyway.

                      You may be partly correct comparing Rogernomics to Muldoons policies. But there was another path we could have taken. The one initiated by Kirks Labour Government. Including the equivalent of a sovereign wealth fund, for one.

                      “I do think the Douglas reforms were necessary”.
                      This statement is wrong on so many levels, it is hard to know where to start.

                      We havn’t done well even by right wing measures such as GDP. Which I believe are flawed, but it does give a basic economic comparison between countries.

                      As for real wages, inequality, Labour productivity, investment, innovation and rising poverty. It is blatantly obvious that the 80’s and 90’s reforms have not delivered, except for a few.

                      The history is relevant because it set the path we have been on ever since. Where speculators and spivs make more money than contributors.

      • Pat 6.2.3


        • greywarshark

          I think Ad 6.2 may be right. They have the will and the dosh, while our lot have….? (Well, sounds a possibility so let’s have an economic paper on it, let’s have a cup of tea or would you like something stronger?)

          When I looked at the shareholding for Fletchers there didn’t seem to be much that said Chinese or Asian to me (morningstar report) it seemed like North American institutions and funds. Perhaps that’s why Fletchers haven’t done well. The Chinese have been building all sorts of things successfully using clever expertise and careful surveillance of steel no doubt.

          And the Chinese can afford to play extreme jokes on people – who would have though Chinese had such sense of humour? In vid below it is suggested that some people think it is cruel. I would find it terrifying and would never go on it if I knew, but if the warning was in Chinese or under size 9 font I could be caught. It’s amazing what people in power will do to each other no matter what nationality – it seems to be human to be inhuman sometimes. Haha.


          • Pat

            the query was as to the clarity of the options…id suggest there is very little clear about the provision of infrastructure requirements…something Ad himself(?) has commented on often, even the possibility they may not happen at all.

            The political fallout of such a decision alone would suggest wholesale provision by offshore entities would likely temper if not preclude such an event.

    • alwyn 6.3

      Did you hear the other things he was talking about?
      Obviously this Government has solved Auckland’s housing problems.
      The Nation’s children are all out of poverty.
      The health system now provides all the medical treatment desired.
      Now he can get on with the important matters.
      A couple of hundred million to spend on a place for the uber-rich to gallivant round at an America’s Cup Regatta.
      I’d rather have my tax cut, frankly. I can then spend the money on useful things like a cataract operation for my wife.
      Better that than having Parker blow it away on things to attract a few billionaires here, so that the Cabinet can joyride on the super yachts. And keep Dalton in his million dollar lifestyle.
      Tell Team New Zealand the money shower is over. Go somewhere else and play.

      • James 6.3.1

        Don’t forget Winston’s all weather race course for the horsie people.

        Gotta start out on the important stuff.

      • KJT 6.3.2

        “Blow money on superyachts”. To promote one of New Zealand’s few successful manufacturing export industries?

        Or. Is your preference to blow even more money in irrigating Canterbury. so we can add to the worlds surplus of cheap dairy products?

        If you, and many similar idealogs, hadn’t kept voting for tax cuts, the public health system would have covered your wife’s cataract operation.

    • infused 6.4

      Why state that when they haven’t asked?

  6. Rosemary McDonald 7

    Could someone perhaps tell our Prime Minister that there’s work to be done.

    There’s absobloodylutely no time for this shit….http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11994876

    Just say “No!” Prime Minister when the trash mags come calling.

    “No, they’re not paying me to pose, they’re paying me to sort out homelessness and child poverty and the crisis the health system, high youth unemployment and suicide rates.”

    • James 7.1

      She really is the “woman’s weekly” pm. Soon there will be pregnancy shoots – then the baby shoots etc.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

        “She really is the “woman’s weekly” pm. Soon there will be pregnancy shoots – then the baby shoots etc.”
        She is and those “shoots” will deliver her many terms as Prime Minister.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Unfortunately you’re probably correct

        • James

          She has to get thru this one first.

        • veutoviper

          I agree that some (but not all) of these photo shoots, interview by popular magazines etc may deliver political and other benefits (eg publicity about NZ) and thus well worth the PR and publicity.

          Vogue for example may be aimed at the high end of the worldwide fashion market, but their articles are usually of reasonably high quality in terms of what they focus on, and are not just fluff and fashion.

          From memory, it was reported back in November when the actual photo shoot and interview took place that these were on a Saturday morning – not in the midst of the parliamentary working week, for example.

          As presumed by James at, it was also reported that Jacinda Ardern will not be on the front cover of the magazine as apparently it is not Vogue’s policy to do so with political figures or their family – eg Michelle Obama was not on the cover when she did a shoot and interview, and Theresa May who also did a Vogue interview and photo shoot in late 2017 will not be on the cover when these are published (April 2018?) .

          Ardern’s photo shoot and interview has been reported again now because the actual interview (but not the photos) is now publicly online although the hard copy Vogue March issue is not due to be on sale for some weeks.


          (Note – you will probably get an initial screen asking for name, email etc – just close the X and it should go to the article.)

          IMO the article is a good balance between reporting Ardern’s political background and views, and the more personal stuff including fashion. I have certainly seen much worse.

          I personally have no problems with this article being available worldwide in terms of any impressions it gives of New Zealand. In fact I am pleased to see mentions of NZ’s long standing anti-nuclear stance and Ardern’s stance on climate change.

          Ardern is clear-eyed about what a prime minister of New Zealand, a country with a population of under five million, can achieve on the world stage. “We’re small,” she says, “but we do our bit by standing up for what we believe in.” She points to New Zealand’s long-standing nuclear-free policy as an example and wants to apply that same moral leadership to action on climate change. “We’re surrounded by island nations who will feel the brunt of climate change. So I see us as having a responsibility.” Of course New Zealand is a tiny contributor, overall, to the warming planet—and yet carbon-heavy industries like farming, horticulture, and forestry are the country’s biggest businesses. Ardern is ready to take those sectors on. “The most difficult thing for us to do is to mitigate and offset our agricultural emissions,” she says. “If we find a way to do that, then we’re showing other countries how to do it too.”

      • North 7.1.2

        “She really is the “woman’s weekly” pm.” Mmm…..with greater relevance and authenticity than had Key with that rugby publication.

        • AB

          Exactly North – James, PR etc. are dissing things of interest to many women (fashion, clothes) as unworthy trivialities.
          But they see no problem with similar things that are of interest to men (rugby, beer) where Key did photo-ops.
          Their misogyny is as blatant as it is unconscious.
          Oh – and she looks bloody great too – whereas Key looked like the doofus he also sounded like.

      • weka 7.1.3

        do you disapprove James?

      • savenz 7.1.5

        That type of approach worked for John Key. I’m not sure if Labour supporters will be as forgiving as they were to John.

    • ianmac 7.2

      Key grasped every chance to be in the public eye. Both the sublime and the ridiculous and it seemed to work, damn him. I guess that those who read the trashy magazines may not gain an awareness in “our” ways. So go for it Jacinda – I am afraid.

      • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.1

        “I am afraid.”

        I am disappointed. Saddened. Disheartened.

        Key did this shit as a distraction from nasty dealings behind the scenes.

        What’s going on with this lot we don’t know about yet?


        • Puckish Rogue

          For what its worth Rosemary I respect that the views you’re holding on Jacinda are similar to the views held on John Key when he did stuff like this

        • James

          While people are admiring her picture on the cover of vogue at the supermarket (I’m guessing most labour supporters would never actually buy a copy)- it takes their eye off the signing of the TPP that labour are so in favour of now despite all their promises and bowls of outrage.

          • weka

            You’re starting to look pretty troll-y there James. Too many implied lies there that are redesigned to rark people up. Might want to rethink how you want to comment here. It would be good if you did that before I start thinking about getting out the bold pen. But I am noticing a growing number of people pointing out the troll-like nature of your presence here.

            • Ed

              I have been saying this for ages.
              James comments only to derail and distract.
              And he never adds anything positive to a discussion.

          • Molly

            “it takes their eye off the signing of the TPP that labour are so in favour of now despite all their promises and bowls of outrage.”

            You’ve been called out on this before, and failed to respond.

            Labour were never against the TPPA, but against the process. Provide a link to where they unequivocally and officially stated their aversion to the TPPA. I – like many others – waited for them to do so, and it didn’t happen. Attendence at protests is not the same as protesting or opposing. (…or the police are far more liberal and progressive than I gave them credit for)

            Else you are deliberately misleading.

            • weka

              Thanks for that, I couldn’t be bothered going over it again. Imo, he’s deliberately misleading.

        • weka


        • greywarshark

          You seem in the mood to appreciate this last bit from a rather dark post on Bowalley Road.

          William Butler Yeats, the Irish poet, saw it all happening nearly a century ago, in the fretful aftermath of the First World War. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity”, he wrote in his most famous poem, The Second Coming.

          The final lines of that poem can still send a chill down the spine:

          … but now I know
          That twenty centuries of stony sleep
          Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
          And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
          Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    • She can and will do both. Who on earth would turn down golden opportunities to connect with voters the way women’s mags allow modern politicians to do? Jacinda is serving her supporters well by attending to their political needs and their need for encouraging stories.

      • alwyn 7.3.1

        As long as she doesn’t get into the stream of crap those magazines publish.
        According to the cover stories I see at the Supermarket checkouts we will have two magazines saying how blissfully happy she and Clark are and two saying they have separated. Next month their will be the same two viewpoints but on the other pair of magazines.
        Does she plan to be the David Beckham of the Posh/Becks variety?
        Mind you at least Beckham was a superbly professional footballer and his wife a very skilled businesswoman. I don’t see anything like it in our pair.

        • Whispering Kate

          God almighty did you not see all the magazines at the supermarket we had to suffer as visual pollution of the chosen one and his Stepford wife. At least Adhern’s partner is employed as we speak and not being a blessed ornament to the annointed one. The Stepford wife got a degree for god’s sake and then “with mutual decision making” decided to become a stay at home wife while the godhead blazed the stage of the money markets.

          Give Jacinda Adhern a break, at least Vogue magazine has some mana in the print world and she will get maximum exposure for the forgotten lot of us down here.

          • alwyn

            Hard to see the real difference between Clark and Bronagh in at least one respect.
            Brohagh stayed at home and brought up two children.
            Clark is going to stay home and look after one child.
            Do you really think that women who stay home with their children are to be despised? It certainly sounds like it.
            Leave her alone. Just because you don’t like the National Party is no reason to spray your venom at someone who took no part in political life, seems to be a very pleasant person and has done absolutely nothing to you.

            • veutoviper

              Well, alwyn, like WK I recall seeing many Women’s Weekly type magazines at the supermarket over the last nine + years featuring John Key and Bronagh (or Bronagh alone) on the cover with articles inside – with accompanying photographs of them or her in various changes of clothes.

              Similarly over the last year there have been magazine articles (some with front cover photos and more photos inside ) featuring Bill and/or Mary English.

              So take a step back and stop this ‘pot calling the kettle black’ approach.

              1. Gayford’s first name is Clarke – not Clark. (Misspelt in your 7.3.1 as well)

              2. How do you know that Jacinda is only having one child? Have you seen the ultrasound images? Do you know there are twins in Jacinda’s family (eg her father has a twin brother)?

              3. As I detailed in my comment at in OM on 13 Feb, Clarke is giving up most of his work to be the main caregiver – probably a not easy decision.

              Three years ago he took a big gamble (with Jacinda’s agreement) to follow his dream of creating his own TV series combining travel, fishing and food, and marine sustainability and protection.

              The third series of his series “Fish of the Day” is due to run here in NZ soon on Prime TV (it was previously on Choice TV) and in about 38 other countries through the National Geographic’s network (up from about 20 countries for the previous two series).

              More details of this and his other work are here –

              Open Mike 13/02/2018

              So he deserves credit ( as does Bronagh) for putting his dreams, ambitions etc aside to become the homemaker, caregiver etc in support of their partners.

              • alwyn

                My apologies to Clarke Gayford.
                I didn’t mean to misspell it and to do it twice is very careless.
                On the other hand I found Kate’s comment about Mrs Key quite offensive to all woman who see their most important role as bringing up children.
                I see you pointed out Kate’s error as well.
                Did you mean your criticism of me in a “nice” way as well?

                • veutoviper

                  Well alwyn, I had to give that a lot of deep thought overnight, and could not get hold of my lawyer to get her advice, but taking all things in to account, and putting you request into the context in which it was raised ..

                  OK, fair is fair, I am prepared to describe my criticism of you comments as meant in a “nice” way as well; and also as meant as “constructive criticism” – or should that be “instructive criticism”.

                  BUT – if it is twins, I will count on you to back me up when I claim to have predicted this before anyone else! LOL.

                  • alwyn

                    ” I will count on you to back me up “.
                    That seems entirely fair. I will not treat you like Cassandra.
                    Both my sisters had twins. Ran them ragged.
                    I can’t remember whether the odds, when my siblings and I were having children, were about 1:80 that a birth would be twins or 1:80 that a person would be one of twins.
                    I believe that it has risen quite a lot since then, though. Older mothers and fertility treatments mostly.

                    • veutoviper

                      I am not sure of the odds either – but only about four months to go. But my remarks on this were strictly tongue in cheek!

                      I have a cousin who swore that she did not want children despite being married and hubby was also of the same view etc. Lucky her (or rather them) had first one set of twins despite birth control; then a second set again despite birth control. Surgical intervention was then sought by both parties to prevent further accidents. Then divorce…

                      Have a nice day. Did you see my reply to your ‘randy goat’ remark on Daily Review last night? LOLZ

                    • alwyn

                      ” Did you see my reply to your ‘randy goat’ ”
                      Yes, and I replied to it.
                      ps. There wasn’t an actual publication “The Double Standard”. There were only the mock newspaper posters.

          • veutoviper

            A whisper – Ardern, not Adhern. Shhhhh (Meant nicely)

      • veutoviper 7.3.2

        I agree – see my reply to you at

    • BM 7.4


      This is why Labour made her leader, this is what her role is, smiling, laughing, mag shots and all the other superficial fakery.

      The real stuff whatever that may be is going on behind the scenes, Arderns just the nice facade to make people feel all happy and positive, “Yay Jacinda she’s so lovely, what an inspiration !!!”

      I’ve got to say, it’s a superb strategy, Helen Clark and Heather Simpson are seriously clever people.

      • North 7.4.1

        Lovely to hear from you BM !

      • red-blooded 7.4.2

        Bullshit, BM. clark is out of the picture – mostly out of the country and dealing with her own (international) issues. Ardern decided to bring in Simpson – fine. An experienced pair of hands.

        Ardern has a sharp brain and good tactical skills. She has a different approach and a different set of priorities to Clark’s, in her time. Stop spreading manure around and start trying to find your buch a leader who has half the smarts and yes, the charisma and communications skills, that Ardern has..

      • mac1 7.4.3

        BM, I think you would say differently if you had the Prime Ministerial finger waggled at you. As she did with that sports jock. She is seriously a leader. Her leadership in the post-election dealing showed that.

        I am with you in the sense that I don’t follow the fakery stuff as you call it either.

        But modern media etc demand it. She’s good at it, as was Key.

        Just don’t think that her skills end there…….. And I don’t agree with your assertion that she is controlled by Clark and Simpson, just as i did not believe that Key was controlled by, well, whichever conspiracy theory one may want to subscribe to.

        There is a difference between control and influence, btw. People do, and should, seek good advice.

      • Ffloyd 7.4.4

        No,no,no BM. Youve got it all wrong.! That was john key that you are describing. Mister Superficial.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.4.5

        And the Illuminati BM. Don’t forget the illuminati.

      • cleangreen 7.4.6

        Yes BM so why did your leader go here to a secretive meeting in 2011 (as four ‘participants’) on public money representing as PM and didn’t tell us all??????


        List of Bilderberg participants 4
        New Zealand
        • John Key (2011-2012), Prime Minister of New Zealand

    • Ms Fargo 7.5

      Did you say that when John key minced down the catwalk in a blue tee shirt?

    • weka 7.6

      Vogue as a trash mag 😆

      I don’t have a problem with the whole Women’s Weekly thing. I want a PM who makes time to connect with different parts of the electorate. Lots of women read those magazines and don’t have other connections to politics.

      I’ll be interested to see what the Vogue article actually says. The anti-Trump framing is very US looking for hope, but I think they are right. She’s not a Sanders, she’s the liberal inverse of Trump.

      The support for a NZ designer will play well in many circles too. This is Ardern building political capital. I think this is smart if we want a second term with a higher majority. It’s not enough on its own, obviously we need the Labour govt to do some serious politics and change, but it’s not hurting Labour’s ability to do those things.

      More of a problem imo is what Stephanie points to about values-based politics. I don’t see Labour getting that yet.

      • veutoviper 7.6.1

        ’ll be interested to see what the Vogue article actually says.

        See my comment at which provides a link to the actual article which is now online, plus my views on it and a quote from the article about NZ’s longstanding anti-nuclear stance and Ardern’s stance on climate change.

    • Hornet 7.7

      One of the first things she needs to do is lift the governments performance in the House. Yesterday was a trainwreck for Peeni Henare (https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=198293), Willie Jackson (https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=198289 and Kelvin Davis (https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=198286).

      • One Anonymous Bloke 7.7.1

        National’s questions went nowhere and elicited nothing: that’s why there is no news coverage about them.

        Labour MPs fell into the same trap during the last Parliament: loaded questions just give the minister a free hit. For example: Kelvin Davis got the National Party’s habit of lying (“scaremongering”) into Hansard.

        Yes, I know you don’t see it that way, and so what?

        • Hornet

          You should watch the coverage. It’s a wreckage. And it’s not about ‘eliciting’ anything, it’s about making government members look like fools. The only reason yesterday didn’t get worse was because Mallard was kind. But Kaye in particular really put a hit on Davis (Mallard had him backtracking on his first answer, then he said he had phoned a particular charter school and they “didn’t pick up the phone” – honestly he’s a walking target) and did again today. Between him and Hipkins, Labour have a real problem. Still, it won’t detract from the PM’s photo op’s, I’m certain of that.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            I watched the coverage prior to commenting.

            If National want to allege wrongdoing on Davis’ part they should should do so. As it is they’re asking loaded questions with inevitable results.

            That’s why none of this is news, and why you have now repeated your original point without adding anything new, Ad Nauseam.

            • Hornet

              You were so quick to answer you missed my edit! Didn’t realise I had struck such a nerve.

              • Hornet

                Here’s today’s episode https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=198357.

                Another wreckage fro Davis.

                • One Anonymous Bloke


                  Tracey Martin exposed the opposition’s dishonest approach to question time very well. Thanks for the link, and the laugh.

                  And you still haven’t managed to say anything new.

                  • Hornet

                    No, she didn’t. She asked about ‘other associate ministers of education’. It was a question that, if allowed to go forward, may well have embarrassed her own minister!

                    But how are going with that news coverage Anon?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      From yesterday. That has no legs, because it’s as you said. a “hit”, not a substantive criticism.

                    • Hornet

                      “From yesterday. That has no legs, because it’s as you said. a “hit”, not a substantive criticism.”

                      I disagree. But even so, are you saying that as long as the media doesn’t notice, incompetence is ok?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      No, it’s more that when National and their mouthpieces allege incompetence, I’m inclined to dismiss their bleating with contempt, on account of the deciduous forest sticking out of their eyes.

                    • Hornet

                      “it’s more that when National and their mouthpieces allege incompetence,”

                      I’d say you don’t have to support any political party to spot Hipkins and Davis as political corpses. The just released Cabinet Paper is going to provide more fun.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                It was easy: you didn’t say anything new, and what you have said amounts to: “I don’t like Labour”. Your edit hasn’t changed that.

                Thanks for illustrating my point. For further information, and rebuttal of your repetitious talking point, refer to

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    It neatly exposed the National Party’s dishonest approach to QT, and that they are treating education like a political football.

                    You cannot see this. Your worldview requires that you not see it.

                    The complaint will go nowhere. Watch and learn.

                    • Hornet

                      Hilarious. National expose an Associate Minister favouring two PS’s over another, all in his own electorate, and you call it ‘dishonest’ and ‘treating education like a political football’.

                      Let’s be clear, Davis is in serious trouble with this, and considering his Minister is ‘3 strikes’ Hipkins, Labour need to reign this in and fast.

                      In many areas Labour look to be performing well, but bumbling performances such as Hipkins and Davis are displaying won’t be tolerated with H2 in the background, I’ll bet.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      (As is clear from her interjection in the House) Tracey Martin has been talking to some schools, Kelvin Davis to others.

                      I’d say in going after Davis in these circumstances they make ‘termination for convenience’ significantly more likely. Especially when it turns out they’ve been inflating their academic record by expelling the students they can’t teach.

                      But hey, it’s your link.

                    • Hornet

                      “Tracey Martin has been talking to some schools, Kelvin Davis to others. ”
                      Davis has stated publicly he has been talking to them in his capacity as a constituent MP. Hipkins has stated it is the MoE doing the talking. What is Martin up to?

                      “Especially when it turns out they’ve been inflating their academic record by expelling the students they can’t teach.”

                      And why won’t the government release the report on the PS’s that was due months ago?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Why? Why? Why? Why? Whyne? Whine. Whine.

                      I expect the answers to your whynes will form a large part of your reasons to beg for judicial review. Or perhaps they’ll just be more whining. That sounds more likely.

                    • Hornet

                      “That sounds more likely.”

                      Why would there be a judicial review? We have a government who is talking with forked tongues (or maybe it’s just incompetence?), implementing poor policy to assuage a vested interest group who funds them, and riding roughshod over those who are being affected. This is normal government activity. No cause for a review.

                  • KJT

                    You think the Governance of the country should depend on who “wins” petty games?

                    That is one of the main problems. The comfortable think it is a game. Like a debating competition, or a horse race.

                    • Hornet

                      “You think the Governance of the country should depend on who “wins” petty games?”

                      No. That’s what OAB thinks, apparently.

                    • KJT

                      It is obvious that is what you think Hornet. As that is what you have been doing on here.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                I wonder whether the schools who’ve been approached by Tracey Martin are wise to follow this path of attacking Kelvin Davis.

                • Hornet

                  Why not? Surely the decision about their future will be made in an impartial manner? (Chuckle).

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Because Ms. Martin would then be able to note that they’re acting in bad faith, and that would increase the likelihood of their closure.

                    Especially if they’ve failed to disclose their contact with Ms. Martin to Nikki Kaye. Own goal.

                    • Hornet

                      How is complaining about Davis’ behaviour acting in bad faith? Again it sounds like you implying a threat.

                      And which schools have been approached by Tracy Martin? And why are either Martin or Davis engaging with the schools if Hipkins says he can’t because the work is being done by the ministry (that’s my understanding)?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Obviously the poor cry-babies feel threatened. Why else would they be reaching out to the National Party?

                    And of course, they know that their access to brand new BMWs will cease by the end of the December school term.

                    And they know they’ll be brought under the eye of the MoE. Or be terminated for convenience.

                    It’s all good with me.

                    • Hornet

                      Good story Anon. Have you seen the Cabinet Paper that has just been released on the changes? I’m reading through it and there has been some big porky pies told.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke


                      Then your judicial review will totes succeed.

                    • McFlock

                      links and do tell. You’re always good for a laugh when you try to report what you think is reality.

                    • Hornet

                      “Then your judicial review will totes succeed.”

                      So, again, your concern is not the right or wrong but whether the government gets away with it. I get the impression that drives most of your commentary here.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Judicial review is all about right and wrong. Try again.

                    • Hornet

                      “Judicial review is all about right and wrong. Try again.”

                      Yes, but that’s not your concern. Is it? Your concern is pure ideology, and you’ll support lies and deception to achieve it.

                    • Hornet

                      “You’re always good for a laugh when you try to report what you think is reality.”

                      Find it yourself. It’s publicly available now. It hasn’t been suppressed, although on past form that would probably your preference, aye.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Your concern is pure ideology, and you’ll support lies and deception to achieve it.

                      Your judicial review will prove that. Or not, as the case may be.

          • Ed

            You would it be fair to say you support National?
            And therefore would it be fair to say your comment is entirely predictable?

  7. ianmac 8

    Just read a long piece of absorbing literature with clever technical bits sent to me by Millhouse.
    What a great/crazy man he was. (Let me know if you read it.)

    • David Mac 8.1

      Yes, skillful prose Ian.

      “It was hard to breathe, and each time he exhaled the moisture froze on his face: a chandelier of crystals hung from his beard; his eyebrows were encased like preserved specimens; his eyelashes cracked when he blinked.”

      Reminded me of delivering newspapers in a 40c below Swedish night.

      A few technical probs. ‘Not a bear in sight’. Antarctica is like that. The blonde bears are all up the top.

      • Antoine 8.1.1

        I was wondering the other day. Could polar bears be successfully introduced to Antarctica? Or would penguins thrive in the Arctic?


        • David Mac

          Ha! I think polar bears would develop a taste for aquatic poultry.

          The ‘Long March’ would become the ‘Short Speed Waddle’.

      • ianmac 8.1.2

        I expected bravado and stiff upper lip but instead it was a very credible human story which brought a tear or two to both my eyes. His family neatly included too.

  8. weka 9

    Judith Collins tweets her true nature, as well as the kaupapa of her party,

  9. Cinny 10

    FINALLY… Zuma has stood down… about freakin time. Time for the ANC to sort their shite out, they’ve become a freaking embarrassment to that nation.

    “South Africa will look back and wonder how we allowed a president so reprehensible to last so long in office,”
    Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh, author of Democracy and Delusion: 10 Myths in South African Politics, told Al Jazeera.

    People will be dancing in the streets over there 🙂


    • JohnSelway 10.1

      I’ve been fairly intimately involved in South Africa (personally and professionally), spent a fair chunk of my time there too and I don’t think this will make a lick of difference unfortunately.

      Corruption is so endemic in the ANC now that it is time for a fresh face. The Democratic Alliance is the party of the future however due to the extreme propaganda from the ANC over the last 5 or so years they haven’t a hope because (but not exclusively because I should add) they have whites in the party. It is something the ANC has drilled into the minds of the poorest of the poor even though under Zuma they have suffered while the ruling class have profited. It is such a shame to see the party of Mandela become a hollowed, corrupt and self interested beast.

      Zuma was part of the struggle too but in the end he was a bad as the rest.

      • Cinny 10.1.1

        Thanks for your insight John, much appreciated.

        Last election over there I heard that the ANC were standing over the poor, threatening and bullying them into voting for the ANC.

        Strongly agree with what you say ” It is such a shame to see the party of Mandela become a hollowed, corrupt and self interested beast”

  10. greywarshark 12

    That Oxfam workers have been apparently trading aid for sex doesn’t detract from the good things the organisation does. Humans always mess up projects, that is why AI has been invented so we don’t have humans around any more. As The Conchords sing ‘The humans are dead,dead,dead….”

    As expected NZ is low on their CRI calculations. So is the USA.

    Get lots of links off this link.


  11. james 13


    NO NO NO NO !!!!

    This is beyond stupid of Seymour.

    Who the hell in his team thought this was a good idea?

    • Puckish Rogue 13.1

      This is shades of Bill English getting in the fight for life…not good

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2

      The same people who think being a Libertarian is a good idea. They just set themselves a new benchmark, too.

    • sam green 13.3

      They could put Judith Collins on and call it Dancing with the Satyrs.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.3.1

        Aww yeah! I’d watch that, I’d watch the hell out of that, I’d possibly even watch it twice in a row…without a break

        Is it suddenly hot in here?

  12. Tanz 14

    Judith Collins is right when she said that Ardern is all about her, and not about what is best for NZ (words to that effect). Ardern is not elected by the people, and all she seems to care about is endless photoshoots. Totally empty, and Kiwis deserve better. She is out of her depth as PM, so she promotes herself as a glam girl instead. So much for ‘capitalism has failed’ eh. Bring back a real PM, who cares less about empty celebrity, photo ops and magazine covers! The public will tire of it fast, if not already, especially as our economy sinks.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [RWers are free to comment under my posts so long as they’re not posting derailments and they can relate their comment to the post. You’re also not going to get away with running Dirty Politics lines like Labour being an illegitimate government. If you don’t like Ardern, that’s fine but I don’t write so that *you can have a space to troll, spout nonsense and spin. Having looked at why you’ve had bans in the past, I’m making a note for future reference, expect a ban without warning if it happens again. – weka]

    • Banter 14.1

      erm..were you here for John Keys term?

    • Exkiwiforces 14.2

      Bah Bah Bah, still want those tissues?

      1 nil, 1nil, 1nil, stand up if you hate national, stand up if you hate national, stand up if you hate national, stand up if you hate national, clap your hands for Jandals, clap your hands for Jandals. clap your hands for Jandals and Winne is the 2nd coming.

    • Craig GlenEden 14.3

      Tanz what a load of bullshit. ” Bring back a real PM, who cares less about empty celebrity, photo ops and magazine covers!”
      Who would that be then the planking Pm who took every bloody media opportunity he could or that Bill bloke who found poverty in the final week of the campaign and as finance minister plunged our economy into debt with Tax cuts for the rich all the while strangling our public hospitals and schools funding.

      • cleangreen 14.3.1

        100% Craig Glen Eden.

        National were heading us into ruin as they did to Greece so thank god Jacinda saved the day.

    • peterh 14.4

      Well she is not sucking allover a allblack,or offering 10 new bridges
      I think you should take along holiday and come back in the real world

    • weka 14.5

      A moderation note for you above and I’d like an acknowledgement you have understood .

    • JohnSelway 14.6

      Sorry but can you clarify a few things for me…

      “Ardern is not elected by the people”
      Pls define this and name a PM that has been “elected by the people”

      “…and all she seems to care about is endless photoshoots….”
      Cough ‘John Key’ cough….

      Don’t get me wrong – I actually didn’t mind Key all in all (better than some of the weird fucks like Joyce and Collins) but never voted for him. But for fucks sake man, that guy was just as vacuous as you make Ardern to be

    • Pete 14.7

      ” …. all she seems to care about is endless photoshoots.”

      That of course is an infantile comment based on not just simple bias, and pique as shown by your other comments, but mainly pure ignorance of what politicians, especially Prime Ministers, do.

      More than that though, nominating what according to you Ms Ardern ‘seems to care about’, would be profound stupidity except that it reflects the profound stupidity and vacuous nature of the comment.

  13. I hope you liked what I posted last nite and this morning I’m going to smell like cow ______ so getting ready to go see our taonga mokos so to busy to have more input than this All you Kiwis and Maori cultured people be proud of who you are and keep your noses clean Ka pai Hilary & Jeremy keep up the good work so hard case Jeremy I missed your kiwi wit Ka pai Ka kite ano

  14. eco maori 16

    Are all you brown people who have or are working in our justice systems feeling STINK BRO well good YOU should have told the Whano exactly how the farcical justice system worked and our prisons won’t be over flowing Ana to kai

  15. eco maori 18


    • eco maori 18.1

      Morning Rumble people I drove a water truck for a bit in tauranga. The Tauranga sandflys though they would play a move and chase ECO Away but no like water off a ducks back. Ana to kai

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