Open mike 18/12/2021

126 comments on “Open mike 18/12/2021 ”

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1. aj 1

   18 December 2021 at 7:48 am

   Imperial college released a report today showing high immune escape, rapid growth and no evidence that omicron was milder than delta.

   https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/modelling-suggests-rapid-spread-omicron-england/
   • GreenBus 1.1

     18 December 2021 at 8:05 am

     Not good. Thanks aj for the link.
   • mauī 1.2

     18 December 2021 at 11:37 am

     From the article:

     "This level of immune evasion means that Omicron poses a major, imminent threat to public health."

     Can we start off with asking some basic questions as to why this is an imminent threat, like what is the omegacron fatality rate? They admit in the article even that the data is poor.
   • joe90 1.3

     18 December 2021 at 12:04 pm

     Will anyone care if this get legs.

     https://twitter.com/covidbaseau/status/1471964131284566020

     EXPONENTIAL GROWTH is a dizzying thing. In the week to December 8th Britain saw 536 new cases of covid-19 ascribed to the Omicron variant, less than 0.5% of the number caused by the dominant Delta variant. But the week before there had been only 32 cases of Omicron—and by December 14th the case number was over 10,000. Omicron looks set to become the country’s dominant strain in terms of cases before advent calendars run out of windows.

     Cases lag behind infections. On December 13th Britain’s health minister, Sajid Javid, said that there were estimated to have been 200,000 infections in the country that day, most of them Omicron. Three more doublings and the total number of infections a day will be more than 1m.

     […]

     The degree to which the variant can infect the previously infected may also make things look rosier than they really are. Natalie Dean, a biostatistician at Emory University, points out that Omicron’s success at reinfecting people may give the impression a smaller fraction gets severely ill just by inflating the denominator. It could thus seem more benign even if, among those contracting covid for the first time, it were just as dangerous as Delta (see chart).

     https://archive.li/MR8gH (the economist)
     • aj 1.3.1

       18 December 2021 at 1:03 pm

       Can we start off with asking some basic questions as to why this is an imminent threat

       Dr Michael Ryan on Covid – speed trumps perfection

       The emergency response will know this. If you need to be right before you move, You will never win. Perfection is the enemy of the good when it comes to emergency management speed trumps perfection. And the problem in society, we have, at the moment is everyone is afraid of making a mistake? Everyone is afraid of the consequence of error, But the greatest error is not to move. The greatest error is to be paralysed by the fear of failure. And I think that's the single biggest lesson I've learnt in Ebola responses in the past.

       https://youtu.be/UeEPmCcPxi4?t=57
   • Patricia Bremner 1.4

     18 December 2021 at 2:23 pm

     Thanks for that info aj, concerning, and Jacinda's "Abundance of caution" is the best stance 'till we know more.
     • alwyn 1.4.1

       18 December 2021 at 2:49 pm

       You suggest that an "Abundance of caution" is the best stance 'till we know more.

       That is of course an approach that advocates that we shouldn't do anything until we are quite certain of the best thing to do. It was the approach we have followed to date in that we didn't order any vaccines till very late in the piece. We didn't go ahead and get additional ICU beds in the hospitals. We didn't admit health care workers into the country by getting our immigration services into action.

       Instead we simply locked everything down and did nothing to prepare for the virus getting into the country except to say that if we gave a lot of vaccination jabs everyone would be protected and we would all be free and we would have nothing else to worry about.

       That was of course what this commenter was warning about. He says

       "But the greatest error is not to move. The greatest error is to be paralysed by the fear of failure"

       We are now paralysed. We haven't even got enough vaccination doses to give everyone a third dose have we? We only really have enough to finish of the two-jab procedure and we certainly don't have enough to give everyone a third. We don't have more ICU beds. We don't have increased medical personnel. We should have all these things already. They shouldn't just go on with the recital that everything is just peachy. Do something NOW is the thesis being proposed. It isn't arguing for an "abundance of caution".

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/458094/omicron-experts-advise-speeding-up-vaccine-booster-doses-after-variant-detected-in-miq
       • Patricia Bremner 1.4.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 4:54 pm

         Rubbish. Finding out the facts before a decision is sensible. Nobody said "Stand still" That is your position taken as a rebuttal, putting words in my mouth. Stop repeating the lie about the vaccine roll out.
         • alwyn 1.4.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 6:17 pm

           I don't see anything I said about the vaccine rollout that was a lie.

           We ordered the vaccines a great deal later than most equivalent countries.

           We were later than most equivalent countries in administering them in large quantities.

           We don't have nearly enough to provide a third dose at the moment.

           ergo We were very late to the party.
           • mikesh 1.4.1.1.1.1

             18 December 2021 at 7:14 pm

             The point is that when delta first appeared in this country the government placed the country in level 4 lockdown. they didn't wait around to figure out the "best" measure to to take, but put in place a measure known to to be good..
             • alwyn …

               18 December 2021 at 10:21 pm

               The original lockdown was vey sensible and the right thing to do. We were an isolated country and it would work.

               You will remember of course that it was an all-party decision and not something the Labour did by themselves. It was something that was strongly promoted by both National and New Zealand First wasn't it? Or do you choose to forget them?

               Indeed there were rumours that Labour had to be forced to take action. At the time there were rumours that Bloomfield had threatened to resign unless the Labour led Government cancelled the Memorial gathering in Christchurch and the Pasifica festival. I have no idea whether there was anything in those rumours but at least they were finally scrapped at the last moment.

               Unfortunately that was the last thing that was done properly. Since then they simply frozen up like possums in a spotlight. It was a pity they cut Winston out of the action in the latter part of their term.

               It was what went on after the original lockdown that was badly handled and you will see that it was those things that I have been talking about.
               • Gezza …

                 18 December 2021 at 10:31 pm

                 There was something unreal about it all when that first national lockdown happened. I went out early one morning for a walk and there was still lots of traffic around.

                 Going thru my gifs I was surprised to find I'd made one of that walk

                 https://i.imgur.com/VbHJTbR.gif
               • KJT …

                 19 December 2021 at 6:14 am

                 Oh bull. National had a different idea every week.

                 Lucky for them, National voters can't remember what they said last week.

                 And like them, you think constantly repeating lies, like the one about the vaccine rollout, makes them true.
                 • Gezza …

                   19 December 2021 at 6:32 am

                   Yep. I seem to remember they were all over the place on lockdowns & financial support measures initially, before finally deciding to support the PM. (The polls were clear that the great majority of NZers supported lockdown.)
               • Tricledrown …

                 19 December 2021 at 8:35 pm

                 Alwynger Still pushing the John Key lie, as Pfizer pointed out We could not get our vaccines any earlier.Europe and the US banned exports until they had enough for themselves and considering 100's and 1,000's were dying in the US and the EU it would have been very selfish of us.

                 But you represent the selfish alwyn.

                 by repeating the lie you think people will believe your pathetic trumpist bs.

                 We are in a much better position by vaccinating later because of waning immunity Giving us better immunity than countries who have rolled out early combined with our high rates 90% plus .

                 That has saved 10's of thousands of lives.

                 Like 2.44 million doses ready for boosting with more arriving.Thats from your link. Maybe you should read your own links before you make a complete idiot of yourself. Where is the lack of booster doses thats a straight up lie.alwynger.

                 Half way through November you made claims we wouldn't get to 90% another of your lies.
                 • alwyn …

                   20 December 2021 at 10:46 am

                   Please provide a quote from me where I said we would never get to 90%.

                   But you won't because you never provide any evidence for any of your claims do you? Mr Spray and walk away is who you are.
                   • Tricledrown …

                     20 December 2021 at 4:29 pm

                     Alwyn ,the of November 2021 your denigrating comments on open Mike.

                     Infer it will never happen as we now are heading to 96% first dose. 90% plus second.

                     3 Rd dose of course you will regurgitate that we don't have enough doses for boosters. 2.44 million plus more coming.
                   • Tricledrown …

                     20 December 2021 at 5:02 pm

                     The 17th of Nov open Mike. Irony as 90% of your posts are false claims
                   • alwyn …

                     20 December 2021 at 6:02 pm

                     I made 3 comments on Open Mike on 17/11/2021

                     Two of them related to the Pike River affair.

                     The third was to Gezza suggesting an approach to getting a better proof reader.

                     None of the thee mentioned in any way Covid 19, vaccinations of vaccination rates at any DHB or overall.

                     You do spout a lot of B*s don't you? You really are a schmuck.
           • aj 1.4.1.1.1.2

             18 December 2021 at 7:50 pm

             I don't see anything I said about the vaccine rollout that was a lie

             But full of your opinion which repeats RW talking points. Mickysavage reported on Matt Nippert's objective assessment …

             is extraordinarily good and manages to capture the essence of what has been an extraordinarily complex project well. And it exposes that National’s continuous attacks are lies should be treated with the same amount of respect as Tobacco Lobbyist claims that smoking does not cause cancer.

             https://thestandard.org.nz/the-covid-vaccine-rollout/
       • Gezza 1.4.1.2

         18 December 2021 at 5:10 pm

         I watched a bit of Al Jazeera tv news late last night (1st time in quite a few weeks). They showed a hospital in Scotland where the ICU nurses are pleading for people to get vaxed & observe social distancing & mask wearing because the nursing staff are physically & mentally exhausted caring for critical-care Covid-19 patients.

         And they can’t get any more trained nursing staff from anywhere. Right around the world there’s an acute shortage of nursing staff; because of Covid, every hospital everywhere is trying to recruit more & can’t get them.

         Even if Immigration NZ was allowing hospitals to recruit overseas, I’m not sure how many we could actually. The biggest drawcard until Delta got here was that we’d successfully kept Covid out. It sure wasn’t our nurses pay rates, or cheap housing or rentals here.
         • Gezza 1.4.1.2.1

           18 December 2021 at 5:11 pm

           🙄 *actually get.
         • Craig H 1.4.1.2.2

           18 December 2021 at 8:56 pm

           Getting visas through INZ is not that hard, the issue is then getting them MIQ spots. I gather Minister Little has intervened, but why it took this long to make that happen is a mystery to me.
   • Foreign waka 1.5

     18 December 2021 at 3:43 pm

     Concerns not just from that side but also from opposing sides. It is staggering that the ordinary person not in "the tent" is so easily lied to or fed with confusing statements.

     https://youtu.be/Qag8-f_frnw
2. Dennis Frank 2

   18 December 2021 at 8:41 am

   Culture vultures have something to pick at & dine on here:

   early 1999, and people were freaking out about the future. A new millennium was on the way, carrying with it the promise – or threat – of massive change. Would the next century guide us toward a tech-enabled utopia? Or, as some feared, would it plunge the world into a full-on apocalypse? These were strange days, marked by equal parts anxiety and anticipation. Which made it the perfect moment for a sleek, cerebral movie called The Matrix.

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/17/the-matrix-two-decades-after

   Created by a pair of mostly unknown filmmakers (Lana and Lilly Wachowski), and headlined by a commercially iffy star (Keanu Reeves), the $60m cyber-thriller became an instant hit.

   A circa-’99 glimpse of the notorious fan-site Ain’t It Cool News hints at some of the questions moviegoers were asking at the time: “Are we being controlled by our computers?” “If the Matrix is real, what can you do about it?”

   Yeah, that's the question still. The one in the movie was likely intended as dramatisation of the one in real life. We emerge from birth into a family matrix, some of us into a tribal matrix, and adolescence shifts us into a broader socio-cultural matrix. Then politics imposes a political matrix (the democracy prison, for us).

   Some of us become adept at transcending each matrix to live as global citizens. Others grow old & die in mental worlds confined by their matrix. Life on autopilot is easy for many.

   When Elon Musk implored his millions of Twitter followers to “Take the red pill” last year, it prompted a response from both Ivanka Trump (“Taken!”) and Lilly Wachowski herself (“Fuck both of you”).

   The fact that “red-pilling” has taken on such dopily spiteful connotations is, for Matrix fans, a bummer: after all, one of the joys of the Wachowskis’ original films was its open-minded vision of society.

   Neo and his partner, Trinity (played by Carrie-Anne Moss), treat each other with a level of mutual respect that’s rarely seen in male-female big-screen relationships, even to this day. And they work alongside a multi-gender, multi-racial team of rebels. For all of its grim shoot-’em-up scenes and killer machines, The Matrix is a deeply hopeful film: one that pushes the value of caring for one another, and the freedom that comes from defining who you really are (since its release, the film has been embraced as a trans allegory – a reading supported by none other than Lana Wachowski).

   Still, the ultimate sign of The Matrix’s ongoing importance, as well as its predictive powers, is the fact that, more than two decades after its release, it’s becoming harder to tell if we’re living with The Matrix, or within it.

   Best to be pragmatic rather than paranoid. The control system can be viewed as an historical product of social evolution rather than something deliberately created to exploit the masses. It's actually both, but the ruling cabal thesis (Illuminati) is too theoretical in comparison to the plethora of actual orgs dedicated to operating social control systems. Realpolitik informs us that the overall matrix is multidimensional.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.1

     18 December 2021 at 9:49 am

     I shouldn’t worry about it too much Dennis.

     Ice-free Arctic late in ’23, resulting in rapid heating of the earth.

     Massive (and I mean MASSIVE) climate disruption in ’24, world-wide famine, world-wide deaths, world-wide migration, world-wide local conflicts. Plus 400+ unattended, un-decommissioned nuclear power plants around the world.

     All gone by late ’25 or early ’26.
     • Pat 2.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 9:57 am

       That soon?
       • alwyn 2.1.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 2:52 pm

         I think he means the 23rd century, then the 24th century and so on. He just misread the timescale.
         • Pat 2.1.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 5:30 pm

           I wouldnt dismiss it out of hand…..an overly complicated interdependent system could collapse very quickly
     • Dennis Frank 2.1.2

       18 December 2021 at 10:48 am

       Gosh, I'd like to be that optimistic but when I recall how many times I've already lived through imminent global system crashes, then been bemused by the system's resilient survival, I just can't help being cautiously pessimistic…
       • alwyn 2.1.2.1

         18 December 2021 at 3:15 pm

         I guess that you are like me and can remember Al Gore proposing in 2009 that

         "Some of the models suggest that there is a 75% chance that the entire north polar ice cap, during some of the summer months, could be completely ice-free within the next five to seven years."

         Whatever did happen to Al Gore anyway? Has he settled down to enjoy his millions.

         https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/02/facebook-posts/fact-checking-claims-al-gore-said-all-arctic-ice-w/
         • Dennis Frank 2.1.2.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 3:29 pm

           Whatever did happen to Al Gore anyway?

           Still mouthing off:

           Gore also said he was hopeful about recent actions by business groups such as the Net Zero Asset Managers Initiative, a group of investors with $43 trillion in assets that have joined a push to limit greenhouse gases to net zero by 2050.

           He criticized announcements by U.S. energy company Chevron about expanding capacity of renewable natural gas (RNG), or gas captured at landfills and from agricultural waste. "That's ridiculous. There is no such thing," Gore said about so-called renewable natural gas.

           https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/reuters-impact-al-gore-china-could-surprise-world-glasgow-climate-talks-2021-10-04/
           • alwyn 2.1.2.1.1.1

             18 December 2021 at 6:22 pm

             I am of two minds.

             One is to say thank you for telling me this. After all I did ask.

             The second is to think "I wish he hadn't" I had rather hoped that he was by now gone and forgotten. I imagine he still turns up in a gas guzzling private jet to lecture us mere plebs on how bad we are.
         • Blazer 2.1.2.1.2

           18 December 2021 at 6:25 pm

           Alwyn,I say Alwyn..Al Gore is a multiple winner of the 'Always be sincere ..even if you ..don't really..mean ..it' award.
   • Puckish Rogue 2.2

     19 December 2021 at 5:38 am

     My prediction is the fourth Matrix movie is likely to suck big time

     Hope I'm wrong
3. Blazer 3

   18 December 2021 at 9:05 am

   Another measure the Govt could introduce to cool down the property market.

   Stamp duties on valuations.

   Singapore is exempted from the NZ foreign buyers ban.

   'ABSD rate, however, will be raised to 17% for SCs second residential purchase, 25% on their third and subsequent purchases.

   For SPRs, the rate will be raised to 25% on their second purchase, and 30% on their third and subsequent purchases.

   Rate will also be raised to 30% for foreigners purchasing any residential property; and 35% for entities purchasing any residential property and developers purchasing any residential property.'

   Gov’t unveils 3 new property cooling measures (msn.com)
   • Gezza 3.1

     18 December 2021 at 11:14 am

     Singapore is exempted from the NZ foreign buyers ban.

     There are also several ways for foreign investors to get around the ban, said Shamubeel Eaqub, an economist at Sense Partners, a consultancy in Auckland. Because of pre-existing trade agreements, Australians, who make up the largest portion of foreign buyers in New Zealand, are exempt, as are citizens of Singapore. And the law doesn’t apply to new homes.

     So are Ozzers. I didn't realise that.

     https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/realestate/new-zealand-locks-the-doors-from-the-inside.html

     (Peter Thiel gets a mention…)
     • Blazer 3.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 5:35 pm

       At the very least ,the NZ Govt should respond in 'kind'…30% levy on Singapore buyers.

       They won't of course.

       The reality is Singapore has hardly any land!NZ has plenty.
4. Gezza 4

   18 December 2021 at 10:25 am

   https://i.imgur.com/UrgFVGe.gif
   • Gezza 4.1

     18 December 2021 at 10:27 am

     https://i.imgur.com/gpMDSKT.gif
   • Patricia Bremner 4.2

     18 December 2021 at 9:39 pm

     He really trusts you Gezza.
     • Gezza 4.2.1

       18 December 2021 at 9:51 pm

       It's quite surprising the number of birds that do, Patricia.

       I'm out there at the stream fence several times nearly every day, certainly every fine day. I'm often standing underneath a tree, surrounded by its foliage.

       I feed the waterbirds and any other birds that like seeds or bread chunks. And I just calmly talk to them all in a soft voice, using the same phrases, which most seem to learn.

       I think I just become part of the scenery for them. They know I'm no threat and I don't try and pat them (well, I have tried, but I don't persist if they hop away, which they pretty much all do).

       I could put half a dozen wheat grains into the palm of my hand for Ivan, when he perched on the fence like that, and hold it out to him. He just hoovered them up from my palm and waited for more.
       • Patricia Bremner 4.2.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 10:19 pm

         We had a parrot to look after once. He was a handsome green Alexandrine parakeet. He talked. (We were in Caloundra.)

         "Joe likes apple APPLE." "Joe is a handsome boy, hop up on Mummy's shoulder. Don't bite Mummy!" He used to copy Dale's call to Molly the dog who was then taking a pill wrapped in cheese. "Molly here Molly Cheeese!!" Molly knew the difference though. When I would clean his cage he would hang by one leg and comment "Been a mucky boy Joe" Really a laugh, as he would look directly at you with a beady black eye, head cocked to the side. He was twenty and they live 40 years, so entertaining. He had his wing feathers clipped, so when they let him out he would walk round with their 3 little dogs. They never bothered him and tolerated him walking around on the tiled floor with them.
         • Gezza 4.2.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 10:22 pm

           
5. joe90 5

   18 December 2021 at 11:22 am

   Must be something in the water.

   

   https://archive.li/CLf8O

   https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-066768
   • Bill 5.1

     18 December 2021 at 11:34 am

     Lock-downs ain't in the water…

     https://thegrayzone.com/2021/12/03/flattening-curve-global-poor-covid-lockdowns-human-rights-vulnerable/
     • Bearded Git 5.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 12:23 pm

       Not sure if we should trust anything from the Grayzone Bill:

       From Wikipedia:

       "The Grayzone website's news content is known for its sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes and in its denial of the Uyghur genocide."
       • Subliminal 5.1.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 1:31 pm

         Demolition of the sole source of Uighur genocide manufactured data may constitute sympathising in yours and wikipaedias books but for others, getting at the lies that buttress US and Western great power competition are more important. Adrien Zenz is an idiot fundamentalist christian who is on record stating both that he is on a mission from god to destroy China and that armageddon is a precondition for gods intervention in this world. With magical fairies. Highlighting this and his crass manipulation of data, supported by another rapture enthusiast, Mike Pompeo, was a job well done by the grayzone. But it sure made them enemies in high places.

         Non grayzone references
         • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 6:52 pm

           There is but one simple means to establish the truth about Xinjiang – open, unconstrained investigation.

           Just like was done after the Wuhan lab debacle. Oh wait …
           • Gezza 5.1.1.1.1.1

             18 December 2021 at 7:31 pm

             https://i.imgur.com/hb3FBCx.gif
           • Subliminal 5.1.1.1.1.2

             18 December 2021 at 9:55 pm

             Well I guess thats a start. At least you admit there is room for debate. Accusations of genocide by idiot extreme religionists dont deserve to be taken seriously. By the same token we dont take much notice of proclamations by Wahhabi mullahs, who also claim to be on the path of destroying nations, led by god. The ETIM, a Uighur terrorist group, affiliated to Al Qaeda, which was funded by the US to fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and then went on to fight in Syria, returned home and turned their anti communist obsessions against the Chinese state. This is real verifiable news. Many people were killed in Xinjiang. I supplied a link above but you can read about it here from Vijay Prashad if you prefer. A common theme with religious nut jobs is their anti communist bent and they seem quite happy to join forces I guess safe in the knowledge that their god being the only god only they will be saved.
             • RedLogix …

               18 December 2021 at 10:05 pm

               Your claim that Adrian Zenz is the sole source of information on this matter is patently silly and easily discredited. Pointless getting into a link battle with you on it though – anyone can use a search engine and make up their own minds if they're interested.

               What is much less contentious is however the long and bitter record of communist oppression towards all religions it suspects of competing with it.
               • Subliminal …

                 18 December 2021 at 10:44 pm

                 What is indisputable about all forms of extreme religion is that they preach salvation through destruction. Exyreme Christianity removes everything that Jesus said and places armageddon between the individual and salvation. Followers like Zenz and Pompeo then do gods work by promoting conditions most likely to bring on conflagration.
                 • RedLogix …

                   18 December 2021 at 11:11 pm

                   Well that's a watertight self-justification if I ever saw one.
     • Treetop 5.1.2

       18 December 2021 at 10:24 pm

       Lockdowns only have one purpose which is to prevent the health system from rationing who gets treated and who does not.

       Omicron is serious as when the health workers fall sick or are exhausted hospitals will not function.

       Will people scream about human rights then?
   • Bearded Git 5.2

     18 December 2021 at 12:16 pm

     Good post Joe…I am sure Chris Bishop will find way to whinge about these numbers…I put it on fb.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 5.3

     18 December 2021 at 12:19 pm

     From the article:

     Our findings of a comparable or lower than expected YLL [Years lost] in Taiwan, New Zealand, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, and South Korea underscore the importance of successful viral suppression and elimination policies, including targeted and population based public health policy interventions.[i.e. lockdowns!]
   • Patricia Bremner 5.4

     18 December 2021 at 4:57 pm

     Alwyn…. We are ok!!!
   • Tricledrown 5.5

     19 December 2021 at 8:42 pm

     Looks like the further to the right a countries govt is the higher the covid death toll.
6. Cricklewood 6

   18 December 2021 at 12:43 pm

   Anyone else find it disturbing that Stuff have taken to outing the vaccine status of private citizens?

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127320798/covid19-senior-general-manager-at-christchurch-council-is-unvaccinated
   • Rosemary McDonald 6.1

     18 December 2021 at 12:50 pm

     Tbh Cricklewood, I find pretty much everything that is published on Stuff disturbing.

     And I know I'm the slow learner down the back of the class on this, but I still don't understand why we unjabbed pose such an horrendous risk to the double jabbed.

     I am seriously beginning to wonder if the Pfizer Product has negatively affected some folks' cognitive function.

     The 'vaccine' only works if everyone has had it…?
     • Sabine 6.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 12:55 pm

       they don't pose a threat to the vaccinated,

       they pose a threat to the underfunded, understaffed, and under resourced Hospitals in our fair land.
     • Robert Guyton 6.1.2

       18 December 2021 at 12:55 pm

       " I still don't understand why we unjabbed pose such an horrendous risk to the double jabbed."

       Have you put the question here, Rosemary, and read closely the replies?
       • Sabine 6.1.2.1

         18 December 2021 at 12:55 pm

         Have you?
         • Robert Guyton 6.1.2.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 12:58 pm

           It's not an issue that perplexes me. I understand why the "unjabbed" pose a risk to the "double jabbed".

           How about you, Sabine?

           Have you a good understanding of why that is?
           Your comment: “they pose a threat to the underfunded, understaffed, and under resourced Hospitals in our fair land.” goes part-way to explaining that risk and is fair, in my opinion.
     • weka 6.1.3

       18 December 2021 at 1:35 pm

       but I still don't understand why we unjabbed pose such an horrendous risk to the double jabbed.

       I think this is willful on your part. But, fwiw,

       • people who are double vaxed have a period of time where they are significantly less likely to get covid than people who are unvaxed
       • this lessens the numbers of people at any given time with covid
       • this protects people from getting covid (simple numbers game)
       • and it protects the health system

       Quick reference,

       According to the UK's Office for National Statistics, the AstraZeneca vaccine is 67 per cent effective against infection with Delta, while the Pfizer jab is 80 per cent effective.

       Other preliminary research suggests there isn't much difference between the two, and that they both reduce the risk of infection by 80 per cent.

       Estimates for vaccine effectiveness against infection vary considerably from country to country, and depend on the type of vaccine, the prevailing Covid-19 variant, and the time elapsed since the second vaccine.

       Estimates vary from around 55 to 80 per cent, with most hovering around the 60-70 per cent mark.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/452283/how-do-covid-vaccines-change-your-risk-of-infection-and-are-you-less-likely-to-pass-it-on

       What don't you understand about that? Less people with covid means less people get covid. Unvaxxed people are protected thus too.

       It's also true that the more people are vaccinated the less the unvaccinated become a risk, statistically.

       I suspect that some people fail to appreciate the collective nature of the public health response and are thinking more about individuals. Classic socialist vs libertarian.
     • Bill 6.1.4

       18 December 2021 at 11:22 pm

       but I still don't understand why we unjabbed pose such an horrendous risk to the double jabbed

       Well, according to Jaccinda recently, the traffic lights with all the exclusion were to protect the unvaccinated from the vaccinated (I kid you not)

       Though, it could be about an indirect threat to a vaccinated persons health if they were unable to get into a hospital because a virus with a fatality rate of 0.05% in the under 70 age group had landed a person without a vaccination in hospital with Covid. In the likely event they wind up in hospital for any other reason, then of course, they pose no threat.

       Then there's…"because!"
     • KJT 6.1.5

       19 December 2021 at 6:20 am

       This has been patiently explained to you many times on this site now, with references!

       It seems like Nationals incapability of understanding what traffic lights do.

       It is simply a wilful refusal to listen.
       • Tricledrown 6.1.5.1

         19 December 2021 at 8:52 pm

         When every other country decided to open up with few restrictions are Now putting restrictions back in place

         We are moving caustiously forward .

         Smart thinking we can see what's happening elsewhere why wouldn't you take advantage of what is happening elsewhere.

         National are undermining this health initiative to please who Brian Tamaki,Billy tk. Bill and Rosemary.Alwyn.
       • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.5.2

         19 December 2021 at 9:04 pm

         It is simply a wilful refusal to listen.

         I'm listening, but your explanations simply do not make much sense.

         The Pfizer Product only works as a vaccine to prevent infection, transmission and serious illness and death if the vaccinated person only associates with other vaccinated persons.

         Because only unvaccinated people can carry and transmit Te Virus and they can infect those who have been vaccinated with a product that claims to dramatically lower the risk of infection and dramatically lower the risk of serious illness and death but only if those vaccinated are kept separate from the unvaccinated…
     • KJT 6.1.6

       19 December 2021 at 6:24 am

       The vaccine is working in New Zealand, to cut down spread.

       If it wasn't we would have an exponential rise in COVID cases in Auckland, right now.

       As they have in US States with low vaccination numbers.
   • RedLogix 6.2

     18 December 2021 at 6:57 pm

     That is fucking outrageous and steps right over the line.

     This amateur run website has way more professional ethics than this.
     • Cricklewood 6.2.1

       18 December 2021 at 7:28 pm

       I'm actually really fucked off about it, I'm wondering if there are grounds for a formal complaint tbh.

       and they wonder why the cop abuse from protestors…
       • weka 6.2.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 8:43 pm

         I'm guessing they would justify it as having public interest, but seems a stretch to me. The article clearly explains that his role has little to do with public contact or spaces, and that he is attending meetings via zoom. That leaves staff, but there's no mandate on that organisation, so what's the point of the article other than to ostracise?
         • Craig H 6.2.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 9:00 pm

           As the GM of HR (among other things), it's his department running the consultation on the proposed vaccine mandate policy. Probably still doubts over the advisability or legality of publishing a private citizen's vaccination status, but there would be at least a perceived conflict of interest internally.
           • weka 6.2.1.1.1.1

             18 December 2021 at 9:56 pm

             what's the conflict of interest? Is the assumption he is an anti-vaxer?
             • Craig H …

               18 December 2021 at 10:50 pm

               Given councils have public facilities in terms of the Covid Protection Framework and those facilities require vaccine passes, it's a bit strange for the GM of facilities to not be vaccinated (his areas are "human resources; IT; facilities, property and planning; procurement; financial management and the Smart Christchurch programme").

               On the question, I've heard rumours along those lines.
   • Patricia Bremner 6.3

     18 December 2021 at 10:26 pm

     Yes I have cancelled because of this.
7. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 7

   18 December 2021 at 2:08 pm

   39 new cases today! Eat that, Natz!
   • aj 7.1

     18 December 2021 at 2:20 pm

     That is a wonderful number but would be almost too good to be true. Whatever, these relatively low numbers are a great way to start the last week before xmas. Has to be the effect of both widespread vaccination and many people still taking measures such as masks and social distancing seriously.

     Weka, thank you for that great, simple and clear explanation of the collective nature of public health measures required to keep numbers down. I plead for people to think about the clear logic for what we are doing, and set to one side all the other noise around our country.
     • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 2:48 pm

       Aj, Australia? How are the Aussies doing? Not on that list… is "Scottie from Marketing" not telling?
       • aj 7.1.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 4:43 pm

         I'm referring to T V's comment "39 new cases today!" Patricia, not the life expectancy improvement @ 11:22am which I believe only covers the nations that have provided that number (can't find the reference sorry)
         • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 9:49 pm

           Sorry this attached to the wrong comment. But you are probably correct, they did not divulge it.
   • Robert Guyton 7.2

     18 December 2021 at 2:54 pm

     An "under-10 year" old Maori boy has died today, of Covid?

     I just heard this and don't know yet if it's true.
     • Gezza 7.2.1

       18 December 2021 at 3:02 pm

       I suspect what you relates to this announcement. The child actually died earlier this week.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300481147/covid19-child-under-10-becomes-youngest-case-to-die

       I haven’t seen another such case announced elsewhere today.
     • Gezza 7.2.2

       18 December 2021 at 3:02 pm

       I suspect what you heard relates to this announcement. The child actually died earlier this week.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300481147/covid19-child-under-10-becomes-youngest-case-to-die

       I haven’t seen another such case announced elsewhere today.
     • Dennis Frank 7.2.3

       18 December 2021 at 3:03 pm

       True, was reported on RNZ news early morning..
       • Gezza 7.2.3.1

         18 December 2021 at 3:14 pm

         The child didn’t die today, Dennis. See above. He died earlier in the week. That he had been infected with Covid wasn’t known until after he died.
         • Dennis Frank 7.2.3.1.1

           18 December 2021 at 3:17 pm

           Oh, okay, I heard it on the breakfast news. Maybe they didn't specify that
     • mauī 7.2.4

       18 December 2021 at 6:00 pm

       Died of Covid? according to Gezza's stuff article, diagnosed with Covid after they had died..? So, with covid or with detected traces of the covid virus might be a better descriptor?
       • Craig H 7.2.4.1

         18 December 2021 at 9:01 pm

         Will find out after his autopsy and inquest.
         • RedLogix 7.2.4.1.1

           19 December 2021 at 9:14 am

           The headline didn't wait however.
     • Bill 7.2.5

       18 December 2021 at 11:42 pm

       Fairly disgusting to exploit a child's death for propaganda purposes, aye?

       The headline clearly implies a Covid death, which dovetails rather nicely into mandating children 5 and up…

       "Covid-19: Child under 10 becomes youngest case to die"
       • Pat 7.2.5.1

         19 December 2021 at 9:33 pm

         there is a 5 -12 year old vaccine programme due to begin in january
         • Bill 7.2.5.1.1

           20 December 2021 at 12:50 am

           Yup. And I know the parents of one 9 year old have been told that unless injected, she can't do her drama classes next term.

           Given that no children without serious co-morbidities have died from Covid…that even the BBC reported the chances of a child dying from Covid were 1 in 2 million alongside the NYT stating the risk was so low as to be incalculable….
   • Prickles 7.3

     18 December 2021 at 4:40 pm

     Back to Tony’s statement re today’s numbers – The update today on the MoH Āwhina app tells us that the numbers are not a full 24 hours as they have changed from midnight to midnight rather than from 9am to 9am. I have tried to link it but my phone is not being obliging.
   • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 7.4

     18 December 2021 at 5:33 pm

     Oh shit, just heard on the news, that's for 15 hours, not 24!

     Bugger!
8. Adrian 8

   18 December 2021 at 3:00 pm

   Rosemary, the fact that you are unvaccinated makes you many times more likely to catch covid, especially Omicron at 5.6 R + ,and your age means you are hundreds of times more likely to be hospitalised and add to the physical, mental and emotional load on nurses and doctors. I have seen it in my wife who had wished to retire or drastically reduce her work load two years ago, but as a life-long dedicated nurse felt she could not let down patients when her skills ( ventilator specialist ) which take at least 4 to 5 years to acquire were going to be desperately needed. She feels it every day when she leaves the house, “ Will I get back here, will I see my children again? Time you thought about others who carry such a heavy load. Please get vaccinated.
   • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

     18 December 2021 at 7:27 pm

     ….and add to the physical, mental and emotional load on nurses and doctors.

     Don't worry Adrian. I won't be adding to that load. I'm not up for being the Fucking Filth clogging up ICU, robbing the deserving of the healthcare they need.

     Time you thought about others who carry such a heavy load. I understand it does not compare with the load your wife carries, but one of the reasons I am not prepared to risk the Pfizer Product is that if the worst happens and I have a bad reaction (and I have pre- existing issues that makes that more likely) my man, who is a C4/5 tetraplegic would be up the proverbial as I am his 24/7 sole carer. He too has issues that in all probability would be exacerbated by the Pfizer Product so has also opted for no shot. It is a very finely balanced life we lead, my man and I.

     To assume I am selfish, unthinking of others… what a narrow minded view and clearly straight out of the anti anti-vaxxers handbook.
     • Patricia Bremner 8.1.1

       18 December 2021 at 9:56 pm

       Best wishes to you both Rosemary. That is a rock and a hard place. Life is not simple.
       • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1.1

         18 December 2021 at 10:16 pm

         Thanks Patricia, and all the best to you too.
     • Bearded Git 8.1.2

       18 December 2021 at 11:18 pm

       Rosemary…surely if your partner is a tetraplegic that is a reason to have the vaccine isn't it? You would not want your partner left alone I assume.

       [But I don’t have details of your pre-existing condition in saying this-has this been diagnosed by professionals as a significant extra risk when having the vaccine?]
9. Dennis Frank 9

   18 December 2021 at 3:15 pm

   Stop Killer Robots? 🤖

   Hmm, dunno about that, let's weigh the pros & cons awhile…

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/technology/2021/12/un-talks-adjourn-without-deal-to-regulate-killer-robots-nz-in-support.html

   Clare Conboy of campaign group Stop Killer Robots said the outcome was one that "keeps the minority of militarised states investing in developing these weapons very happy".

   🥶
10. Herodotus 10

    18 December 2021 at 3:35 pm

    Watch episode 1 last night of The Age of Nature – Restoring the Earth. The rehabilitation of the land in China was inspiring as was seeing the demise of the fishing grounds in northern Norway and what happened in an attempt to restore the fishing stocks. There are some great inspiring things happening out there.

    https://hdclump.com/restoring-the-earth-the-age-of-nature-episode-1/
11. Stephen D 11

    18 December 2021 at 4:57 pm

    “Luxon lists off the groups he thinks the Government has failed: small business owners, farmers and other voters.”

    That is the very people that the government has spent billions of dollars on. Propping up small business and jobs throughout the pandemic. For that reason alone, Labour will still capture a chunk of votes.

    When he starts on about government debt, it’ll be those voters National would have thrown under the bus.

    Good luck getting their vote.
    • Gezza 11.1

      18 December 2021 at 5:23 pm

      Dunno about the farmers? I haven’t paid attention to what Robertson’s done for them.

      Luxon is just reeling off vague typical National platitudes. Until he comes out with competing policies & puts his money on the table he’s just making typical opposition white noise that likely isn’t going to persuade anyone who’s not already a committed National voter that he’s got a high-performing, experience, cohesive team who would do a better job of running NZ.

      That said, a good many lacklustre Labour Ministers need to pull finger next year & start getting their depts to produce actual improved outcomes, instead of just trumpeting how much money they’re throwing at problems that aren’t getting any better in spite of the extra funding.
      • Stephen D 11.1.1

        18 December 2021 at 5:45 pm

        If you discount the media noise, you might find Labour ministers aren’t doing all that bad. The only really weak link is Kris Faafoi.
        • Gezza 11.1.1.1

          18 December 2021 at 6:04 pm

          Carmel Sepuloni needs to sort out MSD on a number of issues, the main one getting lots of attention from the 1ewes at 6 crew being stopping W&I from cutting benefits where parents don’t show up for job interviews or Court appearances. This is hitting their kids far too hard. They need to stop this practice immediately & have a re-think.

          Poto Williams needs to urgently get more police officers. And get the cop hierarchy to have a rethink about reintroducing Community Constables, imo.

          The current situation with emergency housing of gang-affiliated or associated ratbags in inner city hotels & motels needs sorting out too. As does not moving on violent & threatening tenants in Kainga Ora housing.
        • Patricia Bremner 11.1.1.2

          18 December 2021 at 10:34 pm

          No Kris Faafoi is making progress in stopping usury. He also has the unhappy task of trying to manage flows of returnees, people leaving for work reasons etc.. Not a pleasant job in a pandemic. Many who feel hard done by have the ear of the Press.
    • Blazer 11.2

      18 December 2021 at 5:40 pm

      'other voters'!

      That's one of Christopher7's fundamental strengths…he is always very…precise.
      • Gezza 11.2.1

        18 December 2021 at 5:56 pm

        Yep. Sarcasm noted. He’s so bland & vague that immediately after he’s spoken it feels like he hasn’t. 😕

        I expect that when he walks into a room it feels like he’s just left. 😎
12. Gezza 12

    18 December 2021 at 6:31 pm

    Every now & then when bored with other blogs I take a quick look at that grumpy old bigoted bugger Sir Bob Jones’ website.

    It’s not often, but every now & then I find myself agreeing with him. As I do on this case:

    Why was Dawei Zhuang charged in a Palmerston North court with “careless driving causing death” (of a motor-cyclist)? Obviously it’s been a traumatic two and a half years for Zhuang facing a prison sentence as he awaited his trial.

    Yet the undisputed and overwhelming evidence clearly showed the motor-cyclist was solely responsible for his demise and the Judge quickly threw the case out.

    So I ask again, why was Zhuang made to endure the emotional consequences of this charge for two and a half years hanging over him? This was an appalling misjudgment by the Police in pursuing this matter to trial.

    https://nopunchespulled.com/2021/12/17/bad-police-judgement/#more-3176

    I had to Google Zhuang’s name to find a Stuff article about the case:

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/300475878/driver-exonerated-for-role-in-fatal-palmerston-north-crash
    • Blazer 12.1

      18 December 2021 at 6:33 pm

      Jones should have been jailed…years ..ago.
      • Gezza 12.1.1

        18 December 2021 at 7:28 pm

        Sir Bob’s unfortunately got deep pockets & can afford the best lawyers. He’s a force to be reckoned with & not to be legally pursued lightly; even the constabulary & Crown Law obviously think so.

        What specific offence(s) do you think he should’ve been convicted & incarcerated for?
        • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1

          18 December 2021 at 7:42 pm

          He's a bald-necked vulture, wall-eyed and snarky.

          🙂
        • Blazer 12.1.1.2

          18 December 2021 at 7:46 pm

          Insider trading.
          • Gezza 12.1.1.2.1

            18 December 2021 at 8:10 pm

            Hmm. Given Sir Bob’s litigiousness, a Mod might need to take a look at that one 🤔
            • Blazer 12.1.1.2.1.1

              18 December 2021 at 8:44 pm

              Go ahead and look at it…he got off with a slap on the wrist.

              'Don't sell…..until I've unloaded all…of mine'.
              • Gezza …

                18 December 2021 at 9:33 pm

                Very interesting.

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/get-inside-the-trading-game/4YYLL7UIKIL5UWAX2CJ5TVRXWY/
                • Blazer …

                  18 December 2021 at 9:40 pm

                  Yes a veritable rogues gallery,notable for all the knights of the realm involved-wonderful world…beautiful ..people.
                • Gezza …

                  18 December 2021 at 9:41 pm

                  So's this:

                  Jones’ reputation with his tenants was diminished by Lee’s article, Reed said, and the financial adviser had previously published an incorrect article claiming Jones had been prosecuted for insider trading, for which he subsequently apologised.

                  https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=25101

                  and this:

                  https://twitter.com/justin_lester/status/1277452426799271936
            • Blazer 12.1.1.2.1.2

              18 December 2021 at 9:17 pm

              Insider trading is a lovely earner for the wealthy and powerful.

              In the U.S they have the Stock Act to deter congress reps from trading with insider knowledge.

              Congress is always meeting with corporations regarding their business activities.

              The fine is $200,but no one has ever been …caught.

              Someone like Nancy Pelosi who earns 220k a year is (with hubby)worth around 45million…which is about 200 years salary.

              She maintains everything is fine and dandy…because its a 'free market'!
              • RedLogix …

                18 December 2021 at 9:27 pm

                Here in Australia ASIC is decently effective at policing these matters. They won't be perfect, but their presence is both visible and highly active.
13. joe90 13

    18 December 2021 at 8:02 pm

    He’s actually vaccinated and the anti-vax stuff is a scam to maintain the lifestyle he reckons he deserves?

    TALES OF AN ANTI-VAXXER — Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is one of the most prominent anti-vaxxers in the country. So it came as a surprise when an invitation to a holiday party at his home in California last week urged attendees to be tested or vaccinated beforehand, two people familiar with the matter told Daniel Lippman.

    When we called up Kennedy for comment, he pinned it on his better half, actress Cheryl Hines of “Curb Your Enthusiasm” fame. Kennedy said the party was for her entertainment industry friends and cast members, and he was unaware of what the e-vite invitation said before the day of the party.

    “I guess I’m not always the boss at my own house,” Kennedy told Lippman. There was also no effort to verify vaccination or testing status of the attendees before entering, he said. (Hines didn't respond to a request for comment.)

    https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2021/12/17/this-is-a-real-f-ing-problem-495509
14. Pat 14

    18 December 2021 at 9:49 pm

    "This week, ice scientists meeting in New Orleans warned that something even more alarming was brewing on the West Antarctic ice sheet – a vast basin of ice on the Antarctic peninsula. Years of research by teams of British and American researchers showed that great cracks and fissures had opened up both on top of and underneath the Thwaites glacier, one of the biggest in the world, and it was feared that parts of it, too, may fracture and collapse possibly within five years or less."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/18/scientists-watch-giant-doomsday-glacier-in-antarctica-with-concern

    …five years or less.
15. aj 15

    18 December 2021 at 10:21 pm

    No. They are not stupid.

    https://twitter.com/MariaWNorris/status/1471877604814770182

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