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Open mike 22/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 22nd, 2021 - 158 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

158 comments on “Open mike 22/10/2021 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Rachel went to court, Rachel pronounced the verdict: https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/126753711/timaru-woman-trespassed-by-supermarkets-for-refusing-to-wear-mask-has-high-court-case-thrown-out

    Rachel Joanne Tomkinson filed a proceeding requesting a High Court judicial review of two trespass notices, of two years each for non-compliance of mask mandates – citing “freedom to practice my religious liberties under my Human Rights Act”. Tomkinson, who represented herself, named Countdown Timaru and New World Timaru as the defendants.

    In her judgement released on October 13, Justice Rachel Dunningham unequivocally struck out the proceedings, which were referred to her under a rule used when a registrar believes the proceeding is “plainly an abuse of the process of the Court”.

    She said “right-thinking people” would regard the Court as exercising “very poor control of its processes” if it allowed Tomkinson’s one paragraph statement of claim “to be regarded as a proper document”.

    But would "left-thinking people" agree?? Why is the judiciary trying to get away with a policy of discriminating against folks who are sufficiently competent that they can make a legal claim in a single paragraph?

    We know that lawyers are trained to take forever to get to any point they are pretending to make. Obfuscation has been endemic in legal process since empire begain to use it as strategy for ruling the masses. Incomprehensible legal documents of inordinate length remain a useful tool of the patriarchy for oppressing people.

    Dunningham said she had made the assumption that Tomkinson had been banned from entering the two supermarkets because she refused to wear a mask and is objecting on the grounds the mask rule infringes her human rights, including her religious beliefs.

    “The nexus between the requirement to wear a mask in the supermarkets in question and the impact on [Tomkinson's] religious beliefs is not specified.”

    Yeah, specifying a nexus is essential in legal process, damn right! One up for the judge on that point! It was disappointing to see no reference to God telling Rachel not to wear the mask, though.

    Traditionalists will be dismayed at this. It leaves open the possibility that she's a postmodern religionist: "No, God didn't tell me that. I listened, but he didn't speak. I deduced that he wanted me to issue my own interpretation of his will. So I did!"

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Parliament's Speaker puts rugby on record:

    "There are some things which are assertions, and there are some things which are matters of fact," Mallard said. "My old propping mate Pem Bird who I played quite a bit of rugby against in the King Country some time ago is properly described as a leading political figure and I think the member himself will know history in that way – it's just a matter of record," he said.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rawiri-waititi-slams-grossly-inappropriate-trevor-mallard-in-parliament-stoush/VFUMQ6TPQUFNX53UCDSRUUX5ZA/

    Maori Party co-leader:

    "I take umbrage to the fact that we have mentioned a kaumatua in this room that has taken a position of a professional physician in that community that has created that particular assertion that Māori are encouraging people to get vaccinated – I think that's absolutely wrong"

    Huh? Well, maybe this will clarify:

    Hipkins jumped into the fray, asking Robertson whether "having prominent Māori political figures actively discouraging people from being vaccinated help or hinder the vaccination effort". Waititi took offence to this statement, which was a coded reference to former Māori party President Pem Bird who has been calling for more vaccine choice in his community, rather than just the Pfizer vaccine.

    Two possible pathways to the future: wheel in an ecologist to explain the merit of biodiversity, or wheel in an All Black to explain the merit of keeping an eye on the ball…

    • Nic the NZer 2.1

      Thats a fail Dennis. You've somehow actually managed to write that even less clearly than the herald.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1

        laugh Oh well. Did my best, Nic! I will admit to framing the saga as irreverently as it deserves. Perhaps someone else will give it a better go…

    • Tricledrown 2.2

      Pem Bird on RNZ was wanting the French vaccine to be made available. Well because its a dead inactive covid cell type it takes longer to develop .Which will not be available till at least April next year. By then Covid Delta will have done its damage . This is irresponsible leadership.

      This will be a disaster for Maori who are not vaccinated.

      This would be a good headline grabber for Dr Reti who could go to areas where Maori have low vaccination Rates.

      Or the Labour Maori caucus could turn up and help. Something urgent needs to happen.

    • alwyn 2.3

      I think the whole thing is explained by the line in your first quote.

      ""My old propping mate Pem Bird who I played quite a bit of rugby against in the King Country some time ago"

      That explains both Mr Bird's rather eccentric views and Trevor's appalling display as Speaker. Play enough Rugby, particularly in the front row and you can expect early onset dementia and probable CTE. Perhaps they should both retire and join the claim of other, although much better, players in seeking compensation?

      https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-former-rugby-union-players-dementia-landmark-legal-case

    • ianmac 2.4

      About a minute in on Morning Report, an interview with Bird.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018817453

      • Dennis Frank 2.4.1

        Interesting. Murupara currently at 32%. The govt ought to despatch an ambassador to that independent republic toute suite!

        Ole Birdie says "We have a natural distrust of government." Well, hard to argue, eh? Been thataway myself since my teenage rebel years. But there's a difference between habitual bias and what folks oughta do when a pandemic hits.

        The ambassador ought to stand in the mainstreet & yell "It's like a tsunami!" Folks might notice enough to stop & think.

        Oh, just listened to more & Kiri Allan reckons its up to 42% so maybe the message is slowly getting traction.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Ex-Oz top dude Kevin Rudd discusses geopolitics without saying anything substantial: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/kevin-rudd-on-china-a-thousand-pound-gorilla-in-the-front-living-room

    You can see why he hit the top of the Labour Party so fast: bland is good! A classic demonstration of Labour intellectual heft is on display here. Spans the entire spectrum from banal to vapid with a pit-stop at vacuous in the middle.

    Rudd said he was reluctant to offer Jacinda Ardern any advice on how to manage US-China tensions

    Well, thank God for that!! There was always a danger she might actually listen.

    • tc 3.1

      Maybe but krudds joined with Turnbull in calling out Murdoch's influence.

      He's also called out scumo on his faiths influence on the role as PM.

      A polarising character who IMO is doing his best in their owned media landscape to highlight issues.

  4. Puckish Rogue 4

    So its been mandated that all Corrections staff that have contact with prisoners need to have their first jab by the end of the month and 2nd by December

    Even though I'm fully jabbed up I don't agree with this for a couple of reasons.

    1. We're getting jabbed up to protect prisoners but prisoners aren't getting forced to be jabbed even though some are getting released in the middle of the pandemic

    2. Continuing on from 1, we get the jab to protect prisoners but visitors don't have to be jabbed. If we have to so prisoners are protected why not their visitors

    3. If you don't get the jab you probably won't have a job and then if you don't find another job you go on the benefit so from paying taxes and not having the jab you…aren't paying taxes and still don't have the jab

    4. No jab no job so why not no jab no benefit given the amount of hold outs in lower socio economic groups

    5. I don't like this mandatory vaccine business, I really don't like "don't question the science", slippery slope and all that

    • Sabine 4.1

      Prisons were an issue in the US, and funnily enough one of the largest unvaxxed working group of people in the US are cops.

    • garibaldi 4.2

      So what's your point PR? I'm sure if you'd been through our penal system you wouldn't be lining up for a jab. I doubt if you would be lining up for a job either ,because you wouldn't get one.

      Strikes me your no.5 says it all. You really don't trust science. All the evidence shows it does a better job than a pie in the sky concept based solely on 'faith'.

      • Puckish Rogue 4.2.1

        My point is why is it mandatory for some (Corrections Officers) but not others (visitors)

        Science yes, people no.

        Pfizer in Nigeria, WHO beholden to China, Thalidomide, The Unfortunate Experiment, Dr John Moneys gender experiments

    • Tricledrown 4.3

      No jab no hospital treatment plenty of jobs out their PR better paid than a taxpayer funded low paid high stress job.

      Dairy farmers are screaming out for workers you could transfer your skills easily enough.

      • Puckish Rogue 4.3.1

        Doesn't take much for the old sexism to rear its ugly head on here does it

        Sure I'll just tell my wife to forget her career and uproot her to a life on a farm eh because that's what the little lady's there for isn't it, just support the man

        • fender 4.3.1.1

          From what I can see your insistence on your wife accompanying you to a new job location is more sexist than anything Tickledrown wrote.

          • Puckish Rogue 4.3.1.1.1

            You should probably read it again then

            • fender 4.3.1.1.1.1

              Despite following your instruction it's still not obvious. Could you please just quote the sexist part out to me so I can understand where I'm missing it. Thanks in advance.

              • Puckish Rogue

                The sexist part:
                ‘Dairy farmers are screaming out for workers you could transfer your skills easily enough.’

                I pointed out how sexist it was to assume my wife should just give up her job to accompany me.

                If you can’t work it out from there then thats on you.

                • fender

                  There was no mention of your wife or her career prior to your allegation of sexism. If you had said "but what about my wife and her career if I relocate to pursue a new career?" and Trickledrown replied something like "tell her to give it up and support you like a good wife should" then you may have a point.

                  But it seems the conversation on this screen doesn't match the one in your head so perhaps you owe Trickledrown an apology for alleging sexism.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    See heres the thing, Tricledrown suggested that I should find another job, a job in which moving would come with it.

                    Why?

                    I'm good at my job, I live close by and it pays for my mortgage, retirement and holidays plus its pretty secure work.

                    Having this job also allows my wife to have more uncertainty in her job so I find it pretty damn disrespectful for someone to just say start an entirely new career in a field in which I have zero interest in without even bothering to consider what it might take to start that new career like its no big deal.

                    You think of that at all?

                    Irrespective of whether or not I have a wife hes telling to simply upsticks and move and start a new career

                    One of the things on this site I've noticed is that if someone on the right suggests someone unemployed move for better job prospects then that gets viewed pretty damn negatively.

                    So no I don't 'perhaps' owe an apology to anyone.

                    If we're to end sexism on this site then it needs to be called out when it happens, not let it slide just because you happen to disagree with the politics of the person calling it out.

                    • fender

                      Thanks for the reply. It's clear there was no sexism in what Trickledrown suggested, at most it was simply a rude and obnoxious suggestion to move elsewhere. Best of luck to you and your wife and thanks for working in your chosen field which must have its difficulties. Please do your best to help rehabilitate your "clients" if at all possible.

    • solkta 4.4

      yes that's right, if prisoners won't get the jab by the end of the month they should be released! Oh wait..

    • Tricledrown 4.5

      PR your logic is flawed if your fellow officers are unable to work becoming sick it would mean low staffing numbers.A highly risky situation.

      • Puckish Rogue 4.5.1

        Incorrect.

        We have low staffing protocols already.

        Mainly mean less unlock time for prisoners.

    • Bearded Git 4.6

      So why did you get jabbed Pukish….shome mistake?

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    Trump plays a trump on Wall St:

    Trump, whose companies have a long history of filing for bankruptcy, announced a deal Wednesday night to bring a new media company public through what's known as a SPAC, or a Special Purpose Acquisition Corporation. Trump Media & Technology Group, chaired by Trump, said it will launch a new social media platform that the former president promises will "stand up to the tyranny of Big Tech."

    How scared are tyrants Zuck, Jake, etc?

    The media company has agreed to combine with Digital World Acquisition Corp., a blank check company that exists solely to merge with private firms to take them public. The Nasdaq-listed shell company is led by Patrick Orlando, who is also the CEO of Yunhong International, a SPAC based in Wuhan

    Real tricky things come out of Wuhan, eh? So yeah, I reckon Zuck & Jake will run scared awhile. Dunno about the strategy of issuing blank cheques tho. Could be financial advisers will look at that & go "Tut tut!"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/21/business/trump-social-media-spac/index.html

  6. Robert Guyton 6

    Eftpostle Brian – brilliant!

    Karl Te Kaha Pearce

    20 October at 19:26 ·

    The Book of Brian Chapter 2,

    • Patricia Bremner 6.1

      devil Eftpostle Brian lol That's a cracker!!

    • Sabine 6.2

      now do the white evangelic churches that preach the same sermon, just to cover all bases.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1

        yes especially Hillsong etc.

        • Gypsy 6.2.1.1

          I don't think there is an official Hillsong position, but Brian Houston (who founded Hillsong) said that it's a "personal decision for each individual to make with the counsel of medical professionals."

          Sounds sensible to me.

          • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1.1.1

            No… The Health department mandate over rides that.

            Some Drs are being stood down for their "Alternative" unhelpful views We need all who are able to to be vaccinated.

            • Gypsy 6.2.1.1.1.1

              I'm pro-vaxx and fully vaccinated, but I'm not a fan of forcing reluctant people to vaccinate. Education, yes. Compulsion, no.

              • Patricia Bremner

                Hi Gypsy, How do you feel about No Smoking? Seat Belts?.. They are mandated.

                • Macro

                  I remember the moans when Crash helmets were mandated for motorcyclists!

                  • Gypsy

                    Me too! I was a young teen, but I remember the 'let those who ride decide' stickers. I bought a motorbike in the late '70's and I don't recall needing any law telling me to wear a helmet. I do however remember my mother saying if she saw me take off without the helmet she'd call the police on me. Ah, those were the days.

                    • Macro

                      My 1957 BMW R50 which I bought in 1968. It was originally sold in Pretoria SA. The original owner rode it up through Africa, around Europe, down through Turkey and Afghanistan (as you could in those days) India and had it shipped to Perth. He then rode across the Nullarbor Plain to Melbourne and had it shipped to NZ. I bought the bike in Wellington and rode it for a number of years until I joined the RNZN in 1974. It was stored in parts until 2016 when I rebuilt it again as you see it now. Unfortunately the magneto has lost its magnetism over the past 50 years and there is no spark so it's not going at the moment. 🙁

                  • Gypsy

                    Macro – for some reason my laptops blocking your image, so I googled a pic. What a tale your bike could tell after all it's adventures!

                • Gypsy

                  Neither involve a medical 'intervention'. And with smoking, there's another fundamental difference – no-one can be protected against second hand smoking. But as a fully vaccinated adult, I am extremely unlikely to a) contract Covid or b) have a significant adverse reaction if I do.

  7. Jenny how to get there 7

    Time to get ugly?

    The torching of cell phone towers, the sabotaging of the vaccine roll out. These sorts of crimes should all be considered crimes of low level Far Right terrorism, and investigated thoroughly and prosecuted accordingly with penalties severe enough to discourage like minded attacks.
    But as yet we have not seen one apprehension or prosecution.

    Anti-vaxxers making fake vaccination bookings

    5:29pmSource: rnz.co.nz

    Suspected anti-vaxxers have been making bogus Covid-19 vaccination bookings in one of the least protected areas of the country….

    ….."To the people who are trying to book in it just looks like, 'oh this is hopeless'. And how many times do you try when the bookings are full up all the time?" she said.

    Tairāwhiti already had some of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, with 74 percent of people having had at least one dose of the vaccine, well below the national average.

    The rates were 63 percent for Māori and local health teams had crowdfunded this week for a vaccine bus to be able to reach more.

    Dr Murton said anti-vaxxers were entitled to their own view but had no right to take away other people's choice to get vaccinated.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/21/anti-vaxxers-making-fake-vaccination-bookings/?

    It's bloody tragic, and they are getting away with it.

    Why are we spending millions of dollars every year on our security services, who we give extraordinary powers of surveilance to. Why haven't we seen even one arrest for these attacks on our pandemic response?

    Do our spooks need a performance based pay cut, to get off their behinds and spur them into action?

    I mean, what are we paying them for?

    • Tricledrown 7.1

      Jenny how did we get to this. I agree.Our spies only seem interested in spying on greenies .what do we spend all this money on .When they don't seem to be able to find real threats.These saboteurs are doing the same thing as terrorists .The end result is people dying so our spies should be chasing the health terrorists. The greenies have killed no one but have had huge spying resources wasted on unnecessary surveillance.

  8. Gezza 8

    .

    Wet, windy day at Gezza's Stream

  9. Molly 9

    Sussex University (at last) provides a clear response to demands that Kathleen Stock be fired.

    • Molly 9.1

      BBC's Question Time shows the uninformed burbling that accompanies discussions. It appears to me that none of the first three, the questioner, the Labour MP or Fiona Bruce have investigated for themselves Prof Stock's work.

      That uninformed meandering is abruptly halted when Fiona Bruce asks Robert Winston to respond in regards to his role at Wessex University and he replies as a biologist. (43:50)

      • roblogic 9.1.1

        Dare I say, a typical analytical male response, disregarding the niceties of emotional fluff that the other panelists get tangled up in. Thanks for picking out the only decent bit from the tedium.

        • Molly 9.1.1.1

          You can dare, but go and have a look at 52:27. wink

          • roblogic 9.1.1.1.1

            Good stuff. So frustrating to see others tangled up in knots about how people should always be nice and polite to one another. Of course, that's appropriate for social interactions. But not for law and science where technical accuracy and clarity of terms is a paramount concern, not tiptoeing around feelings.

  10. Rosemary McDonald 10

    "…a way that we can keep vaccinated people safe from those who have not been."

    (-5.30)

    Question. If the Pfizer injection is safe and effective how is it that those who have received two doses need protecting from those who have not?

    Serious.

    Switching off the live feed now before they start talking about vaccinating 'pregnant people' and other such un- scientific nonsense.

    • Sabine 10.1

      Our medical complex can still not cope, will not cope as evidenced by the kiddies flue outbreak this winter. No matter how many people are vaccinated. I think that really is the crux of the matter. The fact that for the last 18 month very little was done to bolster our health sector with tools, good wages, retention of people leaving to oz, and training and hiring.

      So yeah, us vaccinated people have to be protected from non vaccinated people, never mind that chances are it is the vaccinated ones without masks that will spread Covid like warm butter on a toast, cause 'I am vaccinated!"

      disclaimer, i am vaccinated.

      So, wear your mask, keep distance, sanitze, and don't insist in large concerts or festivals for a year or three.

      • Molly 10.1.1

        Agree.

        Like some others here, I am a regular attendee at hospital. The last two regular monthly appointments during lockdown have only taken place because I have rung up to query after radio silence. They just haven't got around to ensuring those regular treatment appointment notifications and schedules are maintained.

        It doesn't bode well.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.2

        …us vaccinated people have to be protected from non vaccinated people,…

        Excuse my ignorance here…but surely your vaccinations protect you from getting sick from Te Virus? No?

        And because it is such a clever little injection it will only allow you to be infected by an unvaccinated person. No?

        So this apartheid system is more about protecting the capacity of the public health system rather than actually having to physically protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated…because, like, they are "fucking filth" etc etc?

        A public health system…and I should not need to remind anyone purporting to identify as 'left wing'…that has been deliberately and systematically degraded over the past thirty years, at least.

        Surely to goodness y'all have not forgotten the horrendous waiting lists that existed in the Beforetimes? The 6 hour plus waits in A & E?

        And sorry Sabine…you might be aware that the Miracle Injection from the Pfizer Gods is far from effective at preventing transmission of Te Virus, and indeed will give the Double Shot an unfortunate sense of safety…but many don't because the hard sell has been so relentless.

        And also, it would seem anecdotally, that the Double Shot are not inclined towards volunteering for the Brain Scrape because they truly believe they carry no virus. We here are unlikely to ever have a true indication of the ratio of vaccinated/unvaccinated infected when there are outbreaks. Luckily, this work has been done. I assume the PM is aware of this?

        Such a pity that our government has failed on so many levels prior to Te Virus.

        But hey. All's good. The Double Shot can party hard this summer and the poor, downtrodden hospitality sector can vaccine passport check its way back into business.

        • Sabine 10.1.2.1

          So yeah, us vaccinated people have to be protected from non vaccinated people, never mind that chances are it is the vaccinated ones without masks that will spread Covid like warm butter on a toast, cause 'I am vaccinated!"

          i suggest that you read the whole phrase again.

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.2.1.1

            I said '…you might be aware…".

            • Sabine 10.1.2.1.1.1

              Considering that i said non of what you speak of, i will re-iterate my point again.

              Any one who is not vaccinated must and should be scared of any one who is. Why?

              Because we can carry the disease, be asymptomatic and not know about it all. If we were to get symptomatic for many of us that will mean sniffles. (As so far experiences from the rest of the planet have shown). Some – might get ill, but the vast majority will not.

              The ones not vaccinated however will get ill, and in many cases will die. AS experience so far from the rest of hte planet has shown.

              So mask up (always when outside, no matter how trivial), wash your hands, and sanitize.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.2.2

          Excuse my ignorance here…but surely your vaccinations protect you from getting sick from Te Virus? No?

          Not 100%, no. Te Vaccine merely decreases one's risk of becoming hospitalised and/or dying from a COVID-19 infection – c'mon Rosemary, you know this.

          But since April, the risk [of dying from COVID-19] for fully vaccinated adults has never been higher than 1.2 deaths per 100,000 people.

          Tbh, I couldn't identify any part of your comment @10.1.2 that could be construed as encouraging the hesitant to get vaccinated. It's almost as if you 'think' getting vaccinated is the wrong choice. "No?"

          All "Te Virus" 'cares' about is spreading. The opinions you're continuing to spread here are unhelpful, imho, and in at least one way "Te Virus" is better than you – it’s unaware of the damage it's doing.

          Misinformation” vs “Disinformation”: Get Informed On The Difference

          Amid the coronavirus pandemic, we are all desperate for information. Where did the virus come from? Is there a cure? How can we keep staying safe? Will life get back to normal?

          In the case of COVID-19, information can be a literal life-saver—when it’s true. Wrong information doesn’t help anyone and can even make things worse. And like a virus, wrong information can spread, causing what’s been called an infodemic.

          And now more than ever, we are seeing the spread of two forms of wrong information: misinformation and disinformation. These two words, so often used interchangeably, are merely one letter apart. But behind that one letter hides the critical distinction between these confusable words: intent.

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.2.2.1

            Tbh, I couldn't identify any part of your comment @10.1.2 that could be construed as encouraging the hesitant to get vaccinated. It's almost as if you 'think' getting vaccinated is the wrong choice. "No?"

            Err…not sure what to make of that statement DMK…am I supposed to be encouraging people to get vaccinated? No one told me it is my job to convince others. The Pfizer injection surely sells itself?

            What I am challenging at 10 is the statement from Ardern that the announced rules are because we need…

            "…a way that we can keep vaccinated people safe from those who have not been."

            …how about you address that?

            How about you address the fact that our public health system has been so systematically and deliberately degraded over the past thirty years that an expected seasonal outbreak of RSV sent it into a spin?

            How about you address the wisdom of our PM deliberately placing a target on the backs of those who have chosen not to take the Pfizer injection?

            For very possibly sound reasons.

            And if you don't know of anyone who has had an 'effect' and not reported it, you need to speak to more people. (Yes, yes, I get the whole 'not talking with anyone outside your bubble' thing…but give it a socially distanced and masked go, eh?)

            • weka 10.1.2.2.1.1

              The problem I have is that you started by asking,

              Question. If the Pfizer injection is safe and effective how is it that those who have received two doses need protecting from those who have not?

              it’s a really easy google to get efficacy rates, so I’m confused by the question. I have a straight answer to it below, the vaccine gives partial protection.

              also confused by you positing that the boundaries the government is mandating are solely to protect the health system. Not sure what you mean, as it’s clear that for best protection of the population we need a very high vaccination rate.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Tell you what….watch this, give it your entire attention (bearing in mind that the host is a dyed in the wool pro- vaxxer who has very possibly torpedoed his popular channel). Hear me when I tell you that what happened to young Kyle has happened to too many our fellow Kiwis (worse, our young)…even having doctors dismiss the very real symptoms and suggest sufferers need psychiatric treatment. Kiwis have been made ill and Kiwis have died and their experiences have been completely dismissed and minimised by our so called experts.

                And folk wonder why some are very reluctant to play the numbers on the pfizer injection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7inaTiDKaU

                (oh, and I'd watch it soonish as youtube routinely censors material like this.)

                • weka

                  Afaik pericarditis is a known adverse reaction to the vaccine.

                  I still don't know what you are saying re the efficacy of covid vaccines, that's what I'm asking for clarity on.

                  You said,

                  If the Pfizer injection is safe and effective how is it that those who have received two doses need protecting from those who have not?

                  Do you really (still) not know the answer to this? Hard to have a conversation without knowing what you actually meant.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.2.2.1.2

              Err…not sure what to make of that statement DMK…am I supposed to be encouraging people to get vaccinated? No one told me it is my job to convince others. The Pfizer injection surely sells itself?

              Err… did I say that it was your job to encourage people to get vaccinated?

              I’d prefer that you didn't discourage people from getting vaccinated, which is clearly what you're doing with mis/disinformation along these (nonsensical) lines:

              Bearing in mind Sabine, the Pfizer so-called vaccine neither prevents infection or transmission of the virus.

              By definition it is not a vaccine.

              I stand by my point that your dissemination of vaccine mis/disinformation on this site is more than just potentially harmful during a global pandemic. If you must continue to sow mistrust in the "Miracle Injection from the Pfizer Gods", I'd prefer that you did it elsewhere. To be clear, mRNA vaccines are not miracles, although they do save lives.


              On one point we agree – NZ's public health system has been under-resourced for many years. I'm just grateful to the many dedicated healthcare professionals who continue to do their best to prop it up – it must be a tiring and often thankless task.

    • weka 10.2

      Question. If the Pfizer injection is safe and effective how is it that those who have received two doses need protecting from those who have not?

      the vaccine provides partial protection to individuals and society. It lowers the risk of ending up in hospital, or dying, and lowers the risk of passing on to other people. Unvaccinated people are much more likely to transmit to others, including the vaccinated, and to need ICU care and thus putting strain on health system. It’s a numbers game, increasing the odds of better outcomes.

    • miravox 10.3

      Question. If the Pfizer injection is safe and effective how is it that those who have received two doses need protecting from those who have not?

      I see it as a game of chance

      – Unvaccinated with covid have a higher viral load than Vaccinated so it spreads more readily, therefore:

      – The chance of an unvaccinated person infecting a vaccinated or unvaccinated person is higher than a vaccinated person infecting anyone

      Also

      – The chance of an unvaccinated person* contracting covid is higher because they have fewer, if any, antibodies to it than a vaccinated person

      For the same reasons, i.e. viral load +/- antibodies:

      – The unvaccinated are far, far more likely than the vaccinated to get really, really sick and end up in hospital or dead.

      The immune-compromised are somewhere in-between. They're playing the games of chance, but the dice is loaded against them – they won't 'win' as often as the vaccinated because they may not produce enough antibodies against Covid – hence the need for a third dose for some to even the chances up a bit.

      *the unvaccinated may of course been vaccinated the hard way – by contracting Covid – they’ll lose that protection (antibodies) over time, just like the vaccinated – but maybe they’ll prefer the easier way to get antibodies when that happens – a shot in the arm.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.3.1

        – Unvaccinated with covid have a higher viral load than Vaccinated …

        https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

        – The chance of an unvaccinated person infecting a vaccinated or unvaccinated person is higher than a vaccinated person infecting anyone

        https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

        The chance of an unvaccinated person* contracting covid is higher because they have fewer, if any, antibodies to it than a vaccinated person

        https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

        The unvaccinated are far, far more likely than the vaccinated to get really, really sick and end up in hospital or dead.

        This may well be true…until the Double Shot need the latest booster. I'd need to see research. Having said that…it is still the case that that for most people with few or no co morbidities Te Virus will not put them in hospital.

        the unvaccinated may of course been vaccinated the hard way – by contracting Covid – they’ll lose that protection (antibodies) over time, just like the vaccinated

        Two parts to that…a) we generally do not refer to people who have naturally acquired immunity as having been vaccinated. This is one of those strange terminology shifts we have seen over the past 18months. b) not 'just like the vaccinated' at all . https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9

        • miravox 10.3.1.1

          Your first link is a bit of an outlier when searching for viral load – if it's backed up, it still says vaccination prevents spread

          The second link says what we've known for some time. That Delta changes the game. Even then, it recommends vaccination and a booster – which is where the world is at.

          Vaccination is still better than no vaccination for saving lives and reducing the spread. My major concern (aside from the risk to Immune compromised people) is that if we allow Covid to continue to spread we will almost certainly get more mutation – and one of these will be completely impervious to vaccines and current treatments.

          a) yes, I agree with you , just like 'freedoms' is the new word for 'more activities in public spaces'

          b) last para in your link

          "Ellebedy’s team has observed early signs that Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine should trigger the production of the same cells. But the persistence of antibody production, whether elicited by vaccination or by infection, does not ensure long-lasting immunity to COVID-19."

  11. chris T 11

    Did anyone else hear Ardern earlier?

    Seriously. Only this govt could manage to over complicate and confuse levels more than they had already done.

    • KJT 11.1

      Seemed clear to me.

      Is there a correlation between being right wing and comprehension problems?

      Certainly with right wing opinionators posing as Journalists..

      On the other hand the ODT seemes to have no problem understanding it.

      • Dennis Frank 11.1.1

        Is there a correlation between being right wing and comprehension problems?

        As eldest son of a hardline Nat supporter in the '50s, who was himself eldest son of a hardline Nat supporter in the '30s, I can assure you that the general answer is yes.

        Seemed clear to me.

        Me too. In fact I was pleasantly surprised by how incisive and comprehensive her scheme for our path ahead seems to be. Think we can credit these guys:

        https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/independent-advisory-groups/scphag/

        But not just that brains trust – I reckon the PM deserves credit for her clarity of grasp & presentation of their design.

      • chris T 11.1.2

        Cool. That is helpful

        You can explain a few things then.

        By 90% do the mean 90% of sall Maori, 90% of all Pacific Islanders, 90% of all Asians, (0% of all Indians, 90% of all males, 90% of all females in every DHB?

        And you can give us the difference in numbers between sparodic imported cases and orange increasing cases?

        And what all these businesses are using to scan vaccine cert's

        And who is policing the scanning

        • lprent 11.1.2.1

          This appears to be pretty unambiguous.

          From Stuff

          The Auckland region will transition into a new Covid-19 framework as soon as the region’s three district health boards hit 90 per cent of their eligible populations being fully vaccinated.

          They even repeat it for those who had problems with the first statement…

          Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced on Friday Auckland would move to the “red” setting as soon as each DHB in the city vaccinated 90 per cent of its eligible population.

          So these are the DHBs..

          The three Auckland District Health Boards

          And just to clarify..

          On the Government’s measure, 86 per cent of the eligible population have had a first dose, and 68 per cent have had a second dose.

          There are considerable differences between DHBs however. Auckland’s are likely to reach 90 per cent before other areas, as they are already close to 90 per cent of first dose.

          If you want to break it down by area – then try the maps here.
          https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data/covid-19-vaccination-uptake-rates-across-nz

          By area, it looks to me like the laggard areas are in semi-rural suburbs of the Auckland metro area, and especially over in the North Shore

          • Nic the NZer 11.1.2.1.1

            Unambiguously bad news for those expecting to open up right now. Just Auckland Metro being at 86% means they are 4% (+ 6-8 weeks) away from 90% double vaccinated target. If we had a political opposition right now they would be highlighting that shrinking the 6-8 weeks undermines the effectiveness of the vaccination effort being undertaken, and this is effectively what the government is asking to happen.

        • Macro 11.1.2.2

          It's 90% of all eligible people within all DHBs. That will lift vaccination rates across all sectors. But we won't be constrained if some sectors are reluctant or for some reason unable to be as fully vaccinated as others. The vaccination programme will not stop there and everyone will still be encouraged to become vaccinated.

          • Dennis Frank 11.1.2.2.1

            Yeah, I wondered about the viability of the 90% target. She deliberately gave the govt wiggle-room though – think she said they will review it end of next month. Looks like they will have to target towns/groups of slackers (Murupara for instance) so expect a shift to selective rather than broad containment.

            • lprent 11.1.2.2.1.1

              I liked the change criteria on the Red.

              If the spread of Covid-19 possibly threatens the healthcare system, the “red light” setting will be used. This would limit private gatherings and restrict some inter-regional travel. Schools and retail stores would remain open but may have capacity limits, and hospitality businesses could open but for table-service only and with the requirement that customers are vaccinated.

              One of the things that this will do is to push some of the laggard DHBs outside of Auckland to get to 90% double dose vaccination rates.

              The rest of the country will also be able to move to a new traffic-light system that replaces the alert level system when 90 per cent of each DHB’s eligible population is double-dosed.

              If you look at the vaccination data by DHB you can see the ones who won't get changes for a while..

              • roblogic

                I just want to know when I can get out of Auckland. Still getting vague "it depends" crap from the Govt.

                Looks like our whanau Christmas gathering up North won't happen this year because Northland DHB is underfunded, understaffed, and facing an uphill battle.

                sad

                • Foreign Waka

                  Staff shortages are severe everywhere.

                  I know of several people who have had treatments in main centers (stitching, small ops etc.) and the doctor had to interrupt whilst working (! how safe is that?) because of being called to another patient. This is truly 3rd world stuff.

                  Is this not how the policy is implemented by DHB's?

                  https://www.health.govt.nz/new-zealand-health-system/key-health-sector-organisations-and-people/district-health-boards/accountability-and-funding/population-based-funding-formula

                  From "Structure of the model – points 1-3

                  1. its share of the projected New Zealand population, weighted according to the national average cost of the health and disability support services used by different demographic groups
                  2. an additional policy-based weighting for unmet need that recognises the different challenges DHBs face in reducing disparities and access to health services between population groups
                  3. a rural adjustment and an adjustment for eligible overseas visitors and refugees, each of which redistribute a set amount of funding between DHBs to recognise unavoidable differences in the cost of providing certain health and disability support services to these population groups.
              • Dennis Frank

                DHBs are looking better than I expected on that graph. Uniformity of catch-up seems to be happening. I suspect the problems lie in smaller pockets and may need micro-analysis for targeting.

    • KJT 11.2

      Facebook

      Graphic of the “Traffic light” system.

      Not sure if changing from “Levels” at this stage is the best idea, however.

      • Macro 11.2.1

        We won't be changing to the traffic light system across the motu until all DHBs reach 90% of all eligible people within the DHB vaccinated. Auckland will however move to red when they reach that milestone.

        • alwyn 11.2.1.1

          "all DHBs reach 90% of all eligible people".

          I live in Wellington. Capital and Coast look like getting to the 90% level before most of the other DHBs. Suppose we get up to 90+% by, say, 1 December. Will we go to code Orange?

          Suppose we, and every other DHB except Taranaki get to 90+5 by, say, 1 March 2022. Will everyone except Taranaki be moved to Orange or will nobody move to that status?

          Suppose Taranaki never gets to 90+% Will the entire country, with the possible exception of Auckland, never ever get to the traffic light system?

          Your comment, which I copied, appears to say that the last statement is true. Is it?

          AB, who has commented at 11.3 seems to think it is totally clear. Perhaps he (she?) would care to answer as well.

          • Macro 11.2.1.1.1

            Suppose we get up to 90+% by, say, 1 December. Will we go to code Orange?

            Short answer. No.

            Suppose Taranaki never gets to 90+% Will the entire country, with the possible exception of Auckland, never ever get to the traffic light system?

            Taranaki is currently at 81% of eligible persons with a single shot. Capital and Coast at 89%. I'm not sure what you are worried about.

    • AB 11.3

      Broad outline seemed pretty simple to me. I have always suspected that most of the people who claim this stuff is 'confusing' can't be arsed trying to understand it, don't watch the press conferences because they are 'propaganda', and are simply inherently anti-Labour. If John Key was slurring and shrugging his way through the same stuff and assuring us he was comfortable with it all, they'd say he was masterful and isn’t it great to have someone with ‘business experience’ as PM.

    • Bearded Git 11.4

      You need to pay attention Chris. Things are bound to be different under the non-elimination regime.

      Why is it that only Nat and ACT voters can't understand these things?

      • chris T 11.4.1

        "Why is it that only Nat and ACT voters can't understand these things?"

        Lol. Ouch!

        I am a lot of things, including probably thick for thinking the govt is just over complicating things.

        But I am not and never will be an ACT voter lol

  12. Jenny how to get there 13

    5.4 magnitude. Just how bad is that?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126760514/54-magnitude-earthquake-strikes-lower-north-island

    Let’s hope it is not a magmatic earthquake.

  13. Jenny how to get there 14

    When the war is over. Aren't you meant to release prisoners of war?

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/10/21/historic-victory-us-judge-rules-guantanamo-detainees-imprisonment-illegal?

    Oh, that's right they aren't prisoners of war. They are 'unlawful combatantts'. (it's not kidnapping if we do it).

    And the war isn't over, after being beaten on the ground President Biden says the U.S. will continue with, 'Over the Horizon" attacks. (it's not terrorism, if we do it).

    The Legal Status of the Guantanamo Bay Detainees – Ten Years Later

    …..It will be argued that Guantanamo is not a legal ‘black hole’ and therefore the detainees should be accorded prisoner of war status according to the Third Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War, or alternatively, they should be treated as civilians protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention on Civilian Persons in Time of War. It will be shown that there is no intermediate status under international law and that particularly, international humanitarian law does not recognise the term ‘unlawful combatant’.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263659424_The_Legal_Status_of_the_Guantanamo_Bay_Detainees_-_Ten_Years_Later

  14. Macro 15

    On a lighter note:

    image

  15. Cricklewood 16

    Well, we've just cleaved somewhere between 5 and 15% of our population from society.

    What could possibly go wrong….

  16. Cricklewood 17

    From Facebook:

    "So we're now told if we dont take a government mandated medicine of which there is no other choice available we will be excluded from society and be the targets for vitriol and hatred. Sounds like Jacinda just introduced apartheid NZ style"

    That's something repeatable should see some of the stuff directed at Maori which I wont repeat.

    Fuse is lit.

    • Bearded Git 17.1

      In France if you don't want to vaxx they offer you the option of getting (and paying for) a negative covid test in the previous 72 hours if you want to get into a venue, That sounds like a better system to me

      • Cricklewood 17.1.1

        Yes, there are other options especially around saliva test and rapid tests.

        I've got a really bad feeling about what happens next.

    • mauī 17.2

      Wouldn't our WW2 vets be so proud today…

      • joe90 17.2.1

        '..of New Zealanders doing what they have to..

      • solkta 17.2.2

        Given that military conscription is so many rungs further up the authoritarian ladder than the vaccine rules that seems like a rather stupid thing to say. That before getting to the ridiculous comparison with what the Nazis were up to.

  17. If we don't get out of this stupid lockdown by Christmas I will either kill myself or vote ACT

  18. Sabine 19

    have seen this floating about for a few days now

    http://www.news.cn/english/2021-10/22/c_1310260673.htm

    JERUSALEM, Oct. 21 (Xinhua) — Five more cases of the new COVID-19 Delta variant "AY4.2" were reported by Israel's Ministry of Health on Thursday.

    The first case of the variant in Israel was detected on Tuesday in an 11-year-old boy who returned from Moldova and was tested positive at Ben Gurion Airport outside Tel Aviv.

    Upon the detection of the variant in the boy, the ministry's genetic sequencing laboratory reviewed all sequences that were classified as the Delta variant so far, given the AY4.2 variant had been classified all over the world as the Delta variant and only recently was classified as a separate variant.

    https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/what-is-ay4-2-variant

    UK reported its biggest one-day Covid case increase in 3 months just as the new delta variant AY.4 with the S:Y145H mutation in the spike reaches 8% of UK sequenced cases," Dr. Gottlieb wrote. "We need urgent research to figure out if this delta plus is more transmissible, has partial immune evasion?"

    buckle in, the ride is bumpy.

  19. Jimmy 21

    This is interesting that Radius Care have had enough of lockdown and are opening up for visitors.

    Radius Care: Retirement village chain to allow visitors for residents' mental health (newstalkzb.co.nz)

    • Joe90 21.1

      The more fractious the residents, the higher the staffing levels so damn the torpedoes, open the doors and pay the fines.

      /

    • Robert Guyton 21.2

      "Radius Care" have "had enough"! All change! Radius Care have HAD ENOUGH!!!!

  20. Adrian 22

    At least there is employment on the way for young fellas with a shovel, courtesy of Radius Care, good on them for looking out for the yoof.

  21. chris T 23

    Totally left field one, but I needed a break from everyone going on and on about Covid.

    Alec Baldwin just accidently killed one person and wounded another with a prop gun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/22/alec-baldwin-fired-prop-gun-woman-death-movie-rust-sheriff

    " Alec Baldwin fired prop gun accidentally killing a woman on set of movie Rust – sheriff

    Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on a movie set in an accident that killed a photography chief and injured a director, authorities in New Mexico have said.

    A statement from the Santa Fe Sheriff’s office said Baldwin, who is acting in and producing the film Rust, had fired the prop gun in an incident on Thursday.

    The statement said deputies were dispatched to the set around 2pm in Bonanza Creek Ranch when a 911 caller reported a shooting…………"

    • Puckish Rogue 23.1

      Its not that hard.

      Treat all weapons as loaded, don't aim at anyone and don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire.

      • chris T 23.1.1

        Yeah, know what you mean.

        Was how Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's kid) bit the bullet (pardon the pun), from memory.

      • McFlock 23.1.2

        And systems. Lots of systems, developed in response to how rare incidents happened and could have been prevented.

        Read an article by a movie armourer ages ago, talking about how asome of these incidents can happen, and in particular deconstructung the Brandon Lee incident and the standard industry practises that meant it shouldn't happen again. According to the article, part of the problem with that scene was that the production was being rushed and they'd deviated from the plan.

        Because of the rush they hadn't checked that the barrel was unobstructed. So especially since then the angles were usually worked out that if someone was supposed to be filmed with a firearm pointed at them, it was actually pointed away from them but that wasn't apparent in the movie.

        But maybe this lot found a new way to screw it up fatally with a single point of failure.

        • chris T 23.1.2.1

          Film is independent apparently. So presumably not the biggest budget. Maybe they were just saving money on the stupidest place to try to save money. Safety of the actors and crew, and they prop weapon protocols got a bit lax.

          Could probably add time constraints as well with equipment hire etc, like you mentioned with Lee.

          • McFlock 23.1.2.1.1

            Yeah. It'll probably all come out in the wash, but usually the director and the armourer or stunt coordinator would bear the bulk of responsibility unless the person holding the weapon made the primary screw up (e.g. Hexum).

            The other thing ISTR from that article was that he'd brief everyone, including extras, with a demonstration of the power of a blank at close range, e.g. with a plank or box or watermelon. Good way to stop people treating it like a toy.

            Damned if I can find the original article, though. Lots of the details check out in the google search, but I haven't found the article I'm thinking of – it had a really god flow in the writing and making its case, too.

    • roblogic 23.2

      stupid cosplay cowboy Americans. half of their films revolve around shootouts and punching each other in the face.

      • chris T 23.2.1

        Have to feel for the dude though.

        Actors have no control over prop guns etc.

        Just heard an interview with an American correspondent. Apparently he wasn't in a great space at the cop station. Would screw you up a bit for life I would imagine.

        • Patricia Bremner 23.2.1.1

          Yes Chris T That was my reaction. How terrible to kill a friend with a faulty? prop.

      • McFlock 23.2.2

        Bit harsh. Movies with guns and violence are international.

      • weka 23.3.1

        please fix user name on next comment.

      • chris T 23.3.2

        Has to be I guess.

        She defo' isn't a real gun and that def' aint a a live round.

        Problem with even real pistols like that is aim is crap, So even if Baldwin wasn't pointing it at her, If it was shattered faulty metal it could have gone out at any angle aand hit the people.

      • McFlock 23.3.3

        Unlikely I reckon, especially without Baldwin being reported hospitalised with a hand injury (or face injury, if rifle breech go boom when he's looking down the sights).

        The film is set in 1880, so revolvers and lever actions are the ones hollywood like for that period. Mostly cartridges, but cap&ball were still around at that time.

        So maybe a chainfire of the cap&ball revolving cylinder, but then you have to ask why the unused cylinders had dense obstructions and full charges. Or a Brandon Lee repeat. Or some small rocks went up the barrel while acting and became real projectiles with a blank charge behind them, and folks off the line of aim were hit by the dispersion pattern.

        Lots of possibilities for fuckup or unforeseen hazard. We'll find out soon enough.

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