The racist tory edition

91 comments on “The racist tory edition ”

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1. Pat 1

   14 May 2009 at 11:01 pm

   Geez Zetitic writes so much BS its hard to know where to start…

   “We’ve all been at a BBQ or something and heard a typical National voter waxing racist. Their MPs are the same.”

   Is this meant to be a serious comment or some piss-poor attempt at satire?
   • calltoaccount 1.1

     14 May 2009 at 11:36 pm

     Seems like a quite fair minded description to me! (It does actually remind me of too many BBQ Nat voters I have spent time being polite to.)
2. Zetetic 2

   14 May 2009 at 11:30 pm

   Geez Pat it can be whatever you want it to be. It’s your life.

   I know I’ve been at BBQs and weddings and sports events and cringed as some tory starts on a racist rant. Others have told me stories of the same. It’s happened to you too (unless you’re the one ranting?).

   Where do you think MPs come from? The MP stork? They’re products of their class, their communities, and they think the same.

   Look at the facts. Off the top of my head I could name four National MPs whose careers have been ruined by the fact that they exposed their racism within the last decade and a half. You think that’s all the racists among National MPs? Or only the ones that were dumb enough to be racist on the record?

   In fact, 4 out of what, not much more than a hundred Nat MPs in the last 15 years? Those that aren’t still going mostly faded away quietly or were unelected. That probably makes a racist outburst the most common way for a tory MP to end their career in disgrace.
3. Anthony Karinski 3

   15 May 2009 at 12:18 am

   Got a feeling the Maori Party will be struggling soon. They seem to have silently accepted every policy disadvantaging Maori from the Nact government so far. For what return? Nada.

   Will be interesting to see who will capitalise and grab the Maori seats come next election. Labour is the obvious candidate, but the Greens may make inroads if Meteria Turei becomes the next co-leader. Especially if she puts on a good performance unifying Maori and Pakeha interests in the eyes of the voters.
4. Libertyscott 4

   15 May 2009 at 1:09 am

   “We’ve all been at a BBQ or something and heard a typical National voter waxing racist.” and Labour ones too, even a Green one too (those foreigners who don’t know our values buying our assets).

   Racism appears across the political spectrum, it’s always filthy, Melissa Lee will have copped a fair share too. The proletariat is usually very quick to point fingers at people who are different and be sceptical of them, which is why in most countries fascist racist parties are full of poorly educated blue collar failures. The Labour Party after all relied on a party that pandered to this to be in power from 2005 to 2008 (like National did from 1996-1998).
   • Zetetic 4.1

     15 May 2009 at 8:30 am

     Libertyscott is right that the most racist party in our recent history is obviously NZ1.

     Saying ‘oh Labour did it too’ doesn’t work on me. Labour shouldn’t have relied on racists. That’s one reason I voted RAM (I’ld relate the main reason again but then QoT would tell me off for again not being PC enough. As if I don’t understand that being fat sucks. It was the visual juxtaposition, QoT. And the fact that the dude was not aware of it. I know his weight problems might have been glandular. It’s always glandular these days isn’t it. Even when the person hardly does any excerise and stuffs food in their mouth all day long we have to assume its glandular. And because of that nothing concerning their weight can ever be funny because its a medicial condition. Stuff all that, it looked funny, it’s not an attack on the guy, it’s not personal, it was just a funny visual juxtaposition.

     But you only have to look at that roll call of shame to know that racism is also endemic in National MPs. Remember those four are only the ones dumb enough to get caught on the record.
     • Pascal's bookie 4.1.1

       15 May 2009 at 8:39 am

       Where did Winnie come from anyway?
5. bilbo 5

   15 May 2009 at 7:57 am

   Dear oh dear a D+ and a must try better after your first two efforts then you come up with this bile, I’d suggest you give up posting here and move into the comments section at what Lynn refers to as the sewer at Kiwiblog.
   • Pascal's bookie 5.1

     15 May 2009 at 8:07 am

     Who gave you of all people the right to say who should post here.

     You’re a fine one to talk anyway. Plagiarism, sexism, lies…

     Why did you change your handle any how? I don’t care, your writing style and predictable content give you away, it’s just politeness to say when you change pseudonym, that’s all.
   • Zetetic 5.2

     15 May 2009 at 8:23 am

     Thanks for the grade Biblbo. I give you two gold stars for arrogance in assuming that the Standardistas listen to you. You also get a super-duper silver star for avoiding the topic of institutional racism within National.

     Now we’ve all graded each other I hope we all feel affirmed.
     • bilbo 5.2.1

       15 May 2009 at 8:29 am

       UM well you and that odd chap PB clearly listen ………. if you’re going for the look of a nasty little biggot you’ve got it nailed.

       Reminds me a bit of Clinton Smith’s occasional rants about rich tory boys but at least these were rare and most of his posts were considered so far your batting 3 for 3 on the bile stakes.
       • Zetetic 5.2.1.1

         15 May 2009 at 8:45 am

         I settled on an acceptable level of .. directness … in my posts by taking a quick tour of rightwing blogs. I looked at the fifthy racist, anti-women, anti-gay, anti-poor material on offer and decided its about time you got some of what you give. But I toned it down a long way from what passes for normal on those righty blogs. This is a civilised blog and we don’t win by sinking to your level.

         Anyway Bilbo my next post is on Labour. It’s written in the same style. I bet you’ll be cheering me like a good little boy then.
         • bilbo 5.2.1.1.1

           15 May 2009 at 8:49 am

           “This is a civilised blog and we don’t win by sinking to your level.”

           RAOTFLMFRAWAGAPAO !
         • Zetetic 5.2.1.1.2

           15 May 2009 at 8:58 am

           Exactly.
6. Ron 6

   15 May 2009 at 7:59 am

   As I watch the train wreck that is Melissa Lee, the appalling set up with the Transition Authority on Awk and Joyce’s mealy mouthed concern for the communities that will be munted by his road……..I keep hearing “True Colours”
7. bilbo 7

   15 May 2009 at 8:24 am

   Are you a stalker or do you have something useful to say ?
8. vto 8

   15 May 2009 at 8:29 am

   What on earth is racist about one group of people expressing their fear of another group of people? And you may want to ask yourself how that fear has come about.

   For fucks sake I heard on the national radio yesterday a story in the maori news celebrating their special extraordinary physical capabilities (you know, like being bigger and stronger mostly). Bloody racists. Why no stink about that story?

   Why the fuck do stories like that get free air time and no complaint when if there is a story about how they may have a warrior gene then all hell breaks loose and its labelled racist. Similarly, if the story is about some research which shows the white man has a bigger brain. Not allowed those stories, no no.

   The clammering calls of racism that jump about in this country are so tangled, compromised and hypocritical they are a fucking joke.
   • Tigger 8.1

     15 May 2009 at 9:52 am

     vto – so irrational fear of a class of people on account of their race isn’t racism any more?
     • vto 8.1.1

       15 May 2009 at 10:08 am

       Tigger, dont be tricky. Whether it is irrational or not is not the issue. Similarly, the fear is not “on account of their race” the fear is a fear of violence.

       Why do you suppose the asian community fears the PI community Tigger?
9. Akldnut 9

   15 May 2009 at 8:30 am

   Zetetic – you missed out Don brash and his Orewa speech
   • Zetetic 9.1

     15 May 2009 at 8:38 am

     didn’t wreck his career, enhanced it. But yes the fact that he brought back National’s redneck base with racism tells us something.
10. The Voice of Reason 10

    15 May 2009 at 8:49 am

    “What on earth is racist about one group of people expressing their fear of another group of people?”

    Are you kidding, VTO?

    I guess it depends on how you ‘express’ your fear. Expressing it verbally is offensive, expressing it physically is a hate crime, expressing it by killing folk within your own country or invading another country is a war crime.
    • bilbo 10.1

      15 May 2009 at 8:51 am

      Thank you for that stream of logic which strongly suggests that Zittty Tic is a literary (in the loosest sense) rascist.
    • vto 10.2

      15 May 2009 at 8:56 am

      “Expressing it verbally is offensive”. Are you kidding? I think a mature approach to these subjects is well overdue in this country.

      Or maybe they best not express it. Just like ignore it or something. I dunno, someone else work out how the asian community should deal with its fear of the PI community (among others).

      Someone (I know, how about the govt) should also draft some legislation which outlines what constitutes racism and what does not. Just so everyone knows like. Cause right now it is impossible to work out what is and isn’t racist from what goes on in this country. Seems some can be racist and some can’t … Colonisers equal holocausters equals ok. PI equal excessive violence equals not ok.
      • The Voice of Reason 10.2.1

        15 May 2009 at 9:14 am

        Well, no, I’m not kidding.

        There are laws against racial vilification, but I accept if you express your fear of others at, say, a White Power meeting, nobody in the room is likely to be offended. However, I don’t think that’s the kind of company you keep, VTO, so if you do choose to express your fear in say, a social occasion, there is every chance you will offend someone, whether you intend to or not.

        Freedom of expression has limits. And for good reason.
        • vto 10.2.1.1

          15 May 2009 at 9:22 am

          I understand the necessary limits on human interaction lest people take offence and things take a turn for the worse.

          My problem comes with the completely uneven application of that principle. Which is racist itself.

          Example: Tariana Turia was not labelled racist for comparing colonisers to holocausters. That is offensive and racist.

          Example: Lockwood Smith cannot apparently express a fact about the physical make up of a race (‘small hands’), yet the maori news yesterday can express a fact about the physical make up of a race (‘bigger stronger’).
          • forgetaboutthelastone 10.2.1.1.1

            15 May 2009 at 10:13 am

            It all depends on who is at a disadvantage. Racial minorities have suffered for some time from the effects of racial stereotyping. The majority race has hardly suffered at all from similar racial stereotyping.

            Some would like to say – “lets have racial equality starting from now and we can all just treat each other equally poorly and that would be fair.” But its not because there are past experiences that still effect racial minorities to this very day.

            Sure – racism against whitey still aint right – but whitey has had it so good for so long its like – “harden up” or “cry me a river” or whatever.
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.2

            15 May 2009 at 10:19 am

            I’m still coming getting over the Norman incident in 1006.
          • vto 10.2.1.1.3

            15 May 2009 at 10:25 am

            forgetabouthtelastone, your argument leaves me entirely unconvinced. In fact somewhat hardened because your last sentence is exactly my point, you racist pig.

            so good on Lee for expressing an issue that is important to her community (safety from dangerous criminals), athough expressed in a very bad way.

            many people fear polynesians when they come across them. why? well you fullas work it out. i imagine you know but will simply refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

            Poor old PI community can’t handle being told they are scary? Well to quote yourself back at you “”harden up’ or “cry me a river’ or whatever”
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.4

            15 May 2009 at 10:38 am

            Bah 1006 what 1066 you fool.
          • forgetaboutthelastone 10.2.1.1.5

            15 May 2009 at 10:43 am

            Some polynesians may be scary for whatever reason – some whiteys may be scary for some other reasons – but a statement such as “Poor old PI community can’t handle being told they are scary?” insinuates that every single member of the PI community is scary which is obviously ridiculous and offensive. I’m sure that the PI community are aware that there are some among them that others might find intimidating for whatever reason – and that they would not have a problem with having that reality pointed out.
          • vto 10.2.1.1.6

            15 May 2009 at 10:50 am

            see what I mean forgetaboutthelastone? the entire racism issue is so mixed up and out of balance that it now lacks any credibillity when somebody cries “racist! racist!”

            people just roll their eyes and continue with their day…
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.7

            15 May 2009 at 10:51 am

            “”Poor old PI community can’t handle being told they are scary?’ insinuates that every single member of the PI community is scary which is obviously ridiculous and offensive.”

            Yes which is the point that VTO was making in relation to the post by Zitty tit

            “We’ve all been at a BBQ or something and heard a typical National voter waxing racist. Their MPs are the same. Difference is Lee did’t have the brains to keep her thoughts in her own head. ”

            Pot kettle black and all that ……….

            Feck I must be racist calling that kettle and pot black methinks they should join a group and accuse me of a hate crime.
          • forgetaboutthelastone 10.2.1.1.8

            15 May 2009 at 11:52 am

            “We’ve all been at a BBQ or something and heard a typical National voter waxing racist. Their MPs are the same. Difference is Lee did’t have the brains to keep her thoughts in her own head. ‘

            Yes I could see how that could be really frustrating for you national voters who consider racism to not be a typical trait of yours or your peers. And you have every right to complain about it.

            But don’t expect people to make a big deal out of it because whitey can simply shrug it off and go about his normal privileged existence.

            People say bad things about others all the time and no one likes being the victim – but for some the effects can be more damaging than for others.
          • vto 10.2.1.1.9

            15 May 2009 at 12:07 pm

            hey forgetabout… heard the one about being in a hole and digging?

            Great to hear that now anyone can legitimately be a racist provided the effects on the subject are, relatively, minor.

            ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
          • forgetaboutthelastone 10.2.1.1.10

            15 May 2009 at 12:15 pm

            “Great to hear that now anyone can legitimately be a racist provided the effects on the subject are, relatively, minor.”

            I’m no saying that. I’m not excusing racism in any form. Just trying to explain why racism directed toward the majority might be treated differently (in the media for example) than racism directed at minorities.
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.11

            15 May 2009 at 12:26 pm

            Yes quite right because only “whitey” would vote National just like only “darkies” vote Labour what about those of us with just a touch of the tar brush about us how should we vote ?

            I’m getting very confused in between all the racist BBQs I keep getting invited to.
          • Zetetic 10.2.1.1.12

            15 May 2009 at 12:28 pm

            You should vote in your class interests bilbo. Not superficial divides like race. Have you not been reading your Marx?
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.13

            15 May 2009 at 12:54 pm

            What is my class interest ?

            What is my class .. I am part state employee part private business employee and of mixed race can you please enlighten me ?
          • felix 10.2.1.1.14

            15 May 2009 at 1:45 pm

            No, you should stay true and vote hobbit.
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.15

            15 May 2009 at 2:34 pm

            I was thinking Ent maybe ?
          • Pascal's bookie 10.2.1.1.16

            15 May 2009 at 2:40 pm

            troll
          • felix 10.2.1.1.17

            15 May 2009 at 3:32 pm

            Really set yourself up for that one, hs.
          • bilbo 10.2.1.1.18

            15 May 2009 at 3:42 pm

            Not sure why the PB chap would want to call dibs on being a troll.

            Perhaps he might prefer to be considered a Barrow Wight.
        • Zetetic 10.2.1.2

          15 May 2009 at 1:33 pm

          You’re working class. Here’s a clue. A party made up of and funded by the idle rich and wealthy owners of businesses are not going to govern in a way that looks after your interests. They will look after their own interests.

          Check out your tax cut compared to John Key’s or Rob Fyfe’s and you’ll see what I mean.

          Or work out what you would have to pay for comphrensive medical and income insurance in the event of an accident on the private market compared to what you pay for ACC.
          • bilbo 10.2.1.2.1

            15 May 2009 at 3:44 pm

            My tax cut is bigger than John Key’s.
11. exbrethren 11

    15 May 2009 at 9:11 am

    Is the only point of this article to point and name-call?

    Zetetic you say you trawled the right wing blogs to obtain a level of directness and it seems this article descends a few rungs down towards that level.

    The Standard policy states “We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate.” This article seems to go against that policy.

    Disappointing to see this published.
12. Daveski 12

    15 May 2009 at 10:49 am

    Where are SP and Tane when we need them? I’m not sure if it’s the result of being in opposition or the loss of the core and able contributors, but standards are dropping.

    Playing the race card with so little to connect the accusation with the core content is both pathetic and regrettable. It’s cartoon blogging at its worst.
    • lprent 12.1

      15 May 2009 at 11:39 am

      It is opinion. That is what the posters write here. You’re welcome to say why you think that it is wrong – in your opinion. However simply saying that the ‘standards’ are dropping doesn’t really cut it.
      • Daveski 12.1.1

        15 May 2009 at 1:17 pm

        The standards are dropping was an attempt at a pun. Obviously not a good one.

        I will absolutely stand up for the Standard for the fact that largely dissent is tolerated and to a large extent welcomed and encouraged. I’m sure others from the right who are regulars here would say the same thing.

        It is undoubtedly only my opinion but this is a crap post. Sadly, the author’s equally pathetic comment below supports my opinion.

        Eddie … so is this some type of dog whistling.

        Anyway, I’m getting a little fired up so I’d better settle down and take a pill. The funny thing is that the Nats in particular have had their worst week in office since the election and there is so much material to legitimately attack the Nats without this type of approach.

        It’s almost like I’m defending a noble vision of the Standard … I need help 🙂
        • lprent 12.1.1.1

          15 May 2009 at 1:49 pm

          This post doesn’t get close to what I’d step in and wrap people over the knuckles for. It has a point. Sure it steps on the sensibilities of some people, but frankly it needed to. When I read it it didn’t even twitch WTF instincts.

          Just look at the un-gagged views of the Maori Party over the appointment.

          BTW: The last post that I pulled was back in 2007 because it was pointless satire. Tane and Irish edited a couple of posts in 2008 to remove offensive paragraphs (before I got to them). The h-fee one is the last one that got published that really shouldn’t have been – but I wasn’t really involved in that discussion,

          Since then the posts have either been acceptable or gotten discussion while still being edited and visible by other contributors. A few of mine have been canned through that process. Most recently a post entitled “Wingnuts and moonbats – simple thinkers, intolerant of others” which was discussed in the background and dumped as being too inflammatory.

          There are currently just under 200 posts that have been discarded for various reasons, mostly being unable to figure out how to make the post work. Not bad when you consider that we have 2846 posts published since the site started, and the diversity of opinions amongst the writers.
    • Eddie 12.2

      15 May 2009 at 12:08 pm

      Daveski. I think you’re confused about what ‘playing the race card’ means. Playing the race card would be saying ‘Lee can’t be racist because she’s Asian’ or ‘as an Asian Lee knows all about being a victim of racism’.

      We’re giving Zetetic a bit of a leash to see how it goes. If it goes too far we’ll ask for some restraint. It’s a loose collective but we also have an image to protect and we’ll strike the balance somewhere if need be. Currently, I think you’re all playing right into Zetetic’s hands. This is exactly the reaction that post wanted – rightwingers leaping to the defence of people who have made racist comments or pointedly trying to avoid the topic while pleading for Zetetic to go away.

      You might want to look up the meaning of the word. One might say Zetetic appears to be seeking to stir you up and see what comes out of your mouths.
      • vto 12.2.1

        15 May 2009 at 12:21 pm

        “This is exactly the reaction that post wanted – rightwingers leaping to the defence of people who have made racist comments or pointedly trying to avoid the topic while pleading for Zetetic to go away.”

        Ha ha you guys are a joke.

        From the posts on here the only possible conclusion that can be reached is that it is the left who are in fact the best racists, as witnessed by the highly selective nature of their choice as to what constitutes racism. See fogetaboutthelastone’s posits for just one example.

        The left cannot see the wood for the trees on this issue.
        • Zetetic 12.2.1.1

          15 May 2009 at 12:26 pm

          Turia has made racist comments too. She’s not on the left. We wouldn’t have that sellout in RAM.
          • bilbo 12.2.1.1.1

            15 May 2009 at 12:32 pm

            Yes quite right Zetetic she’s clearly an Aunty tomathina.
13. Zetetic 13

    15 May 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Look at that. Despite bluster and whingeing from some quarters (don’t worry Daveski, I’ve called her and your mummy will be along to pick you up shortly) a real passionate debate about racism has developed.

    It warms me cockles so it does.

    Plus vto is in the position of trying to defend racists and getting a beating. Which is nice.
    • bilbo 13.1

      15 May 2009 at 12:31 pm

      Yes clearly you were only wanting to stir up some debate …………. wasn’t that what Don Brash said … oh that’s right it’s not the same apparently he’s a tory racist and you’re a tory hating racist completely different.
      • Zetetic 13.1.1

        15 May 2009 at 12:42 pm

        I’m not a racist. Tory hating but not a racist. What have I said that’s racist? Nothing. Tories aren’t a race.
        • Phil 13.1.1.1

          17 May 2009 at 1:22 pm

          Discrimination based on race.
          Discrimination based on political view.
          Discrimination based on gender and or sexual orientation.

          One of these things is not like the other…?

          Nope, they’re all the same.
14. vto 14

    15 May 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Ha ha zitty, I was after a good debate on racism too as it is an issue which is, as I keep saying, so tangled convoluted compromised and saturated in hypocrisy that it is meaningless in NZ today.

    Plus I aint trying to defend racists. Idiot. I am trying to highlight the tangled convoluted compromised and hypocrisy-saturated nature of the issue. And the best to do that is simply repeat back to the left its own twaddle. This thread is full of delicious examples of selective racism by so-called liberals.

    Oh, and I certainly dont feel like I’m taking a beating. Quite the reverse actually.

    keep it up
    • Zetetic 14.1

      15 May 2009 at 12:48 pm

      And don’t you feel alive vto? Isn’t it great?

      Coming in here, getting your arse kicked in everyone’s eyes but your own.

      Walking away charged up with testosterone and feeling like you’ve given the buggers what for.

      It’s so much fun. And that’s why, despite the whining from some, you keep coming back. That’s the fun of politics and blogging.
      • vto 14.1.1

        15 May 2009 at 9:36 pm

        ha ha what? I dont think thats quite right. How did you sneak this post in here without me seeing? The old standard used to do this – sneak in an earlier post sub-post.
15. Maynard J 15

    15 May 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I think you all need a hand.

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?dict=B&searchword=racism

    racism Show phonetics
    noun [U] (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialism) DISAPPROVING
    the belief that people’s qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races

    racist
    noun [C] (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialist) DISAPPROVING
    someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly

    Now, to take it back to vto: “What on earth is racist about one group of people expressing their fear of another group of people? ”

    Short answer: When the group is selected by race, it is racist. By definition. Simple enough to me.
16. bilbo 16

    15 May 2009 at 12:50 pm

    “I think you all need a hand”

    I think a short slap to the forehead for Zitty will do the trick
17. vto 17

    15 May 2009 at 12:55 pm

    ok, ok, a point of sorts Mr M J, that was a part windup to get the debate going.

    It follows then that in fact so-called “racism” cannot be that bad. Surely the worse thing is that one group of people fears another group of people, not how they get identified. (which is part of a maturity that needs to come with race issues).

    The two groups could be different sports teams, say the blues fear the reds. Nobody would care two hoots about how they were identified. Or two different religions. Or two different political beliefs. Or two different car clubs ffs.

    The means of identification is of less import than the issue at stake (fear and safety).

    The problem of course comes when this means of identification is extended by others or used for other hurtful purposes … etc.

    All of which is yet more evidence of how tangledconvolutedcompromisedandhypocrisysaturated race is as an issue in NZ. It lacks maturity.
18. vto 18

    15 May 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Actually M J the problems seem to occur due to your definition “the belief that people?s qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races”.

    The first part is difficult to deny, namely that peoples qualities are influenced by their race. In fact that is embraced by many, if not all. People like the positive influences and scream racism when the discussion turns to the negatives (here being possible case in point).

    The second part about belief in superiority is quite different.

    Mixing the two parts is probably the cause of most of the problems about race accusations and debate. They need to be split – need a new word to describe the belief that people’s qualities can be influenced by their race, because that is not necessarily bad.
19. Pascal's bookie 19

    15 May 2009 at 1:06 pm

    “It follows then that in fact so-called “racism’ cannot be that bad.”

    though you weren’t defending racism…

    “Surely the worse thing is that one group of people fears another group of people, not how they get identified. (which is part of a maturity that needs to come with race issues).”

    There is no problem with one group of people fearing another group of people based on the fact that the latter group is identified by the fact that they are thieves. There is something wrong with fearing them on the basis of thinking that ‘racial group x has quality y’. So how the group is identified is exactly the issue that determines whether the fear is legitimate. Surely?

    EDIT: crossposted, might waste some more time on this tonight, but think about what type of qualities are determined by ‘race’. Is criminality really one?
    • vto 19.1

      15 May 2009 at 1:26 pm

      “but think about what type of qualities are determined by ‘race’. Is criminality really one?”

      Well it is on the basis of gender going by prison stats, and that’s accepted by all without accusations of sexism. I don’t know, what do the prison stats on crime in relation to race come up with?
20. vto 20

    15 May 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Well yes P’s B you’re right. Lee should have said perhaps “thieves from South Auckland” rather than whatever it was she said “South Aucklanders in general”.

    But again it highlights how messy the whole issue is. It should be permissible to state ‘race x has these attributes’.

    It should not be permissible to misuse and abuse that though of course. And it is precisely at this point imo that the problems start and it clouds the fact that it should be permissible to state things about a race.

    The two need separating.

    Or do the left think that attributes attributable to race should not be discussed or acknowledged? Just ignored or something? Which would of course be both unrealistic and victorian.
    • Pascal's bookie 20.1

      15 May 2009 at 1:28 pm

      One quick one, it’s permissable as all fuck to say whatever the hell you want.

      That most definatly includes calling someone a racist if that’s what you think they are.

      If they then want to explain why they aint a racist, that’s all good.

      If they also want to say, ‘why yes I am a racist thank you very much’. That’s cool wit me too. Least so I know where they stand.

      It’s the saying ‘I am not a racist’, but not explaining but instead crying that they are being victimised that pisses me off.
21. r0b 21

    15 May 2009 at 1:23 pm

    I’m a little bit surprised to see vto here dispensing wisdom on the topic of racism given his record in this respect.
    • vto 21.1

      15 May 2009 at 1:28 pm

      Oh come on r0b, that is pathetic andyou know it. If that is the best you got against me then you should have just stayed in bed.
    • felix 21.2

      15 May 2009 at 1:58 pm

      vto that was some horrible bigoted racist stereotyping shit. Was it supposed to be a joke or something?
      • vto 21.2.1

        15 May 2009 at 2:06 pm

        of course it was felix (well not a joke ha ha), thats why r0b’s post was pathetic.

        it was in response to the equally horrible bigoted racist stereotyping shit that that post posted.
22. Maynard J 22

    15 May 2009 at 1:56 pm

    A reply to vto, in part.

    Fundametally, you can choose whether you are part of a sports team, or a political party, but you can’t choose your ethnicity or gender.

    So I can (quite rightly) say that Milwall fans are a bunch of ‘ooligans and thugs, but I can’t say that [unnamed racial group] are ‘ooligans and thugs.

    That is because self-selecting groups tend to have definable statistical correlations based on a causative factor. This causative factor is inherent in the self selection. The causative factor is not inherent in the auto-selection of groups for which we may not discriminate against (without being branded racist, sexist).

    To elaborate (hypothetically). Milwall fans might be more violent because they originate from a rough part of town, and many also support the club because they are attracted to the violence inherent in being a Milwall fan. The correlation is also causation.

    [unnamed racial group] might also be more violent, but this is not caused by their being in that group (unless you want to start talking about ‘warrior genes’ and eugenics, but that’s something best left at the door right now) but by qualities caused to that group by external factors – thus we may have correlation but not causation.

    Essentially, when you are being racist or sexist or any other -ist, you are attacking a group without warrant, for the fact of the group itself is not the cause of the factor you are criticising. An obvious exception is that you’re allowed to tell people to use sunblock at varying levels, because some people’s skin colour, as determined genetically, affords them a greater degree of protection from the sun. In that case, the correlation (sun protection) is causative – it occurs by race. If you want to make that type of argument, though, you need some strong evidence that the causative factor is inherent in the group, as opposed to some correlating factor.

    Conclusion: it is obvious when someone is being racist. Ask yourself “Is the defined quality caused by the factor in question?” remembering to carefully distinguish between causation and correlation.
    • vto 22.1

      15 May 2009 at 2:19 pm

      Agreed M J and have said similar previously, though nowhere near as eloquently. But I don’t know that the choice aspect is so crucial. Bigoted generalisations still form the basis of abuse whether footy teams or races, no matter which rough part of town they inhabit.

      As you say “attacking a group without warrant”. So, tangent, is the fear the asian community has of the PI community a causative thingy? Interesting interesting. People in NZ are too scared to try and answer that for fear of being labelled racist. Which refleects that lack of maturity referred to when it comes to race issues.
      • Maynard J 22.1.1

        15 May 2009 at 4:22 pm

        “is the fear the asian community has of the PI community a causative thingy?”

        By my definition above, no, it is not the fact that they are Pacific Islanders that causes the fear. It is (making obvious assumptions here) the actions of members of that ethnicity that case the fear, so we have correlation only. Why the correlation?

        You have to look into the cause of those actions – and that would be the thing to get riled at. Say it is poverty or a lack of education or opportunity – it is harder to rail against the oppressed or struggling than it is to be against a racial group.

        There is nothing to be scared of in that analysis.

        But (and I think this starts to answer gingercrush’s opinion below) can the left or right claim the other has a monopoly on the simple analysis (correlation without causation) that is racist? That is harder to prove.

        You could argue the law and order topic as evidenced by Lee’s recent actions tend to do this – it is certainly the right’s barrow to push.

        Note that you could also argue that trying to ‘excuse’ people (or groups/’races’) for crime due to the reasons I gave above is a left wing trait, often labelled as PC.
23. Ron 23

    15 May 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “Are you a stalker or do you have something useful to say ?”
    Bilbo, were you asking this of me?
    Stalker? – if that means I don’t spend my entire day on here – well, yes, I suppose I am.
    Useful?!? You do READ the posts here, don’t you? I think my contribution was as “useful” as many.
    .
    • Pascal's bookie 23.1

      15 May 2009 at 2:49 pm

      Nah that was aimed at me.

      He missed because he’s an idiot.

      The funny thing he is he tried to out me by googling my handle and posting the first photo he could find. Which was of some young American guy called robert (I think) who has/had a blog titled “Pascal’s bookie”.

      Which makes Bilbo a stalker, but a failure at it.

      He’s good at inventing new forms of stupid though. Just watch.
24. gingercrush 24

    15 May 2009 at 3:44 pm

    I don’t like this thread. I don’t like posts that blatantly accuse Tories of being racist and I particularly don’t like the BBQ line. I’ve met some very racist Labour voters and even racist Green Voters. Of course I’ve met National voters that are racist. Likewise, I’ve seen Labour and Green voters that have been sexst. I’ve seen dole bludgers of all political affiliations. I even know one particular person who use to vote Alliance that owned a very small business and treated his workers like shit.

    For the majority of Labour and National voters. There isn’t a huge difference. We might believe in some things differently. One might favour Tax Cuts the other doesn’t. One may want more money put into education and health while the other favours more personal responsibility. I know a number of people that vote for parties that I wouldn’t have thought reflected their principles. I also know that the vast amount of people I have met don’t really affiliate themselves with any political party. I would presume they would vote either Labour or National. But for many people, politics is just something they’ll watch the news now and then and they’ll vote every three years. That doesn’t mean they are ignorant or anything. Just they would rather involve themselves in different things.
    • gingercrush 24.1

      15 May 2009 at 3:57 pm

      I also live in Christchurch which is supposedly a racist city and rather conservative. I don’t actually believe either is true and its much like impressions of crime in Chirstchurch. Statistically we aren’t a significantly crime-ridden city. Christchurch is also dominantly made-up of Centre-left voters.
      • bilbo 24.1.1

        15 May 2009 at 4:14 pm

        Racism is despicable unless it’s directed against ginga’s they scare the living crap out of me with their bright orange hair and freckles.
        • gingercrush 24.1.1.1

          15 May 2009 at 4:25 pm

          Its a good thing I’m only ginger by name then.
          • bilbo 24.1.1.1.1

            15 May 2009 at 4:27 pm

            He he
          • felix 24.1.1.1.2

            15 May 2009 at 5:32 pm

            Careful, he could still be a daywalker.
      • Maynard J 24.1.2

        15 May 2009 at 4:23 pm

        gingercrush, I sort of wandered into a comment on what you have written in a post to vto above, if you’re interested. 4:22.
        • gingercrush 24.1.2.1

          15 May 2009 at 4:31 pm

          Noted. Though I wasn’t exactly referring to what Lee said. The less said about what she said the better. Very disappointing and rather stupid is what I think of her.
          • Maynard J 24.1.2.1.1

            15 May 2009 at 4:44 pm

            So I was agreeing with you – I don’t like the blanket branding of ‘tories’ as ‘racist’ at all. If you’re going to do it, say which tories and why, and put up a decent explanation. And it needs to be pretty strong as do all statements saying all X’s are Y.

            Someone in another section made an interesting comment, that if all you’re given is a sledgehammer it is hard to not break things (along those lines). I don’t know whether Lee or National decided that they would push the law and order thing in the byelection, but I have come to see it as a clumsy attempt to turn the debate to that topic. There were hints of it during the Q & A, none so obviously manifested of course, but take another look and you will see what I mean.

            If I were a National supporter, my main question would be directed at the Party, asking whose strategy it was to push that topic so hard. Given there were hints of it over a week, there has been a failing in the party leadership or strategy team in not preventing the real dud call.
25. Maynard J 25

    15 May 2009 at 4:43 pm

    moved in reply above… sry
26. mike 26

    16 May 2009 at 9:17 am

    If fuckwits like Zetitic are the new Tane then this blog is down the shitter faster than I thought.
    What a disgusting load of bile this thread is
    • felix 26.1

      16 May 2009 at 10:03 am

      Thanks for contributing and lifting the standards, mike. Well done.

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