What happened in the Maori seats

48 comments on “What happened in the Maori seats ”

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1. Mike the Lefty 1

   5 November 2023 at 10:42 am

   But as we have already seen, words and promises made on a political context are not to be taken literally. National would have probably been able to work with the previous Maori Party of a decade ago but TPM is decidedly different and more left.
   • Bearded Git 1.1

     5 November 2023 at 11:21 am

     ….and the bitter and twisted Tariana Turia hated Labour with avengance.
     • Tricledrown 1.1.1

       5 November 2023 at 6:07 pm

       The Alliance party she hated because Jim Anderton was a dictatorial leader remember how he treated Pam Corkery.The Green Party had enough of him as well.
       • Ghostwhowalks 1.1.1.1

         6 November 2023 at 2:42 pm

         Tariana had no connection to Alliance. Are you thinking of Alamein Kopu?
2. AB 2

   5 November 2023 at 12:50 pm

   The right will really dislike the overhang produced in the Maori seats. Unlike Labour and their reluctance to do anything in the past about the "Epsom arrangement", the right are confident, conceited and arrogant enough to do try and do something. Expect ACT to spearhead any attack and Winston to support it.
3. Jack 3

   5 November 2023 at 1:50 pm

   What happened to the Māori seats?

   If you haven’t worked that out 3 weeks post election, I’m sorry for you. It’s the same thing that happened to the general electorate. Real people want real politicians and real solutions . Career politicians, academic ideeologs and ex union bosses rabbiting ideology won’t cut it. Real people want real politicians with real solutions.
   • Corey 3.1

     5 November 2023 at 2:17 pm

     Are you saying the public are sick of every major decision being fobbed off to expensive and lengthy working groups with narrow scope whose timid findings Labour always ignore?

     Are you saying people want the leaders they elect to actually make decisions?

     Surely people want good vibes not solutions!

     Labour will need to organize a working group and consult with Neal and Clint on this straight away.

     Lmfao. You're dead right
   • bwaghorn 3.2

     5 November 2023 at 3:22 pm

     You might be right ,it's a shame national was their only option cause they have never made things better for all of us.
   • observer 3.3

     5 November 2023 at 3:29 pm

     By your own definition, Winston Peters and David Seymour are not "real". Nor are Nicola Willis, Brooke VV, Chris Bishop … the list goes on.

     But this topic is the Maori electorates, which is obviously a specific set of circumstances, so your comment is just a meaningless crowbar.
   • Christopher Randal 3.4

     5 November 2023 at 3:29 pm

     " Career politicians,"

     Seriously? Aren't they all career politicians? Parliament, in my humble opinion, are more beneficiaries than those that they bash!
     • Belladonna 3.4.1

       5 November 2023 at 5:48 pm

       Difficult to regard Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, the newly elected MP for Hauraki-Waikato, at 20, as a "career politician"
4. observer 4

   5 November 2023 at 3:43 pm

   There was very little reporting on the Maori electorate contests in the usual media (I try not to say "mainstream"). Hence the surprise.

   Look at any of the TV network stories on opinion polls, in Sept/Oct. Sure, the main focus was Labour and National, as you'd expect. But TPM was an afterthought, at best. The presenters simply took the poll percentage, extrapolated from that and ignored the electorates. So for example if TPM were on 1.5%, they assumed 2 seats.

   That made no sense. Reporters on the ground would have pointed that out. But they had much less media time than the sacred polls.
   • observer 4.1

     5 November 2023 at 3:47 pm

     Here is the last TV1 poll before the election. Pretty close to the final result for all other parties.

     But completely wrong on TPM, because they ignored the electorates. Very poor.

     Poll: Labour lifts and Greens strong, Peters has decision to make (1news.co.nz)
5. Thinker 5

   5 November 2023 at 4:17 pm

   Here's a few ideas that I wonder what others think about (I'm not sure whether I agree with myself or not ):

   1. When it became increasingly likely that National and Act would be the biggest slice of whatever coalition was formed after the election, voters for whom Maori/civil rights are of major interest could have voted for TPM to balance up what many see as policies shifting to a reversal of civil rights gains over the past several years, comparison with Brash's "Orewa Speech" etc.
   2. On the Jack Tame TV special on Friday, I think I heard Kapa-Kingi say, when asked what single thing allowed to her to beat Kelvin Davis, she said "I turned up for things". I'm not sure whether she meant that KD was pulled away from personal appearances by virtue of his leadership role in the Labour Party, to K-K's advantage, or whether she was implying that Labour was a bit complacent about some of its 'safe' seats. Or, maybe there's nothing in that and it had no bearing on TPM outcome.
   3. TPM is one of three confirmed left-leaning parties (as opposed to some like NZF or TOP that, depending on the conditions, could potentially swing either side of the centre). I believe that some of the Green vote is probably a backlash against the perception that Labour had become a bit disconnected with ground-level NZ and so there's no reason why, if Maori/civil issues presses your buttons a bit more than Green issues, you wouldn't give your protest vote to TPM instead.

   None of the above is to downplay the hard work put in by TPM candidates, but given TPM itself was surprised by the outcome, I'm guessing something external to TPM itself must have played a part.

   What I do think is an outcome of the TPM result is that having 6 or even 5 seats in the house for 3 years will give TPM the impression of being a more credible party, in the way that ACT had to be helped into government over several elections before now being seen as a mainstream party in its own right. Like the ACT of an election or two back, TPM will now have more opportunity to make itself known, both in the house and in the media.

   What I think TPM should do now is use its collective capacity to free itself from being a single-issue party and develop its own perspectives on things that appeal to mainstream voters, like employment, education, health, etc.

   By that I mean change from saying "How does this policy affect Maori?" to say "What would a Maori perspective on this be, given that we want to grow our share of government by appealing to all who inhabit Aotearoa?". It's a subtle change but I think it's one that has to happen. The Greens had to do it and now they've caught up to and passed ACT's share of the vote.
6. adam 6

   5 November 2023 at 4:48 pm

   I am not sure that there was anyone, apart from John Tamihere, who were publicly predicting that Te Pāti Māori would pick up six seats

   cough, cough
7. adam 7

   5 November 2023 at 5:06 pm

   Thanks Micky by avoiding the obvious, you show why many voted Te Pāti Māori. The Labour party showed NO back bone or spine to stand up to act and the rest of the racist muppets this election. Yes some simpering responses in the usual fuddled manner which so many of us are used too from labour. But basically it was not very strong.

   Te Pāti Māori were strong on this issue. acts shitfuckery needed a strong response.

   A clear message has been sent. Māori and Te Pāti Māori will not put with the racist shit act and others are peddling.

   That said, Willie Jackson was strong on Q&A this morning and his last remarks were right on the money.
   • Louis 7.1

     5 November 2023 at 6:54 pm

     Not fuddled, nor simpering, pretty clear statement against racism. The 6th Labour government imo has been very Māori focused and has copped a lot of flak from the race-baiting opposition that has fueled the spread of racism.

     "Labour leader Chris Hipkins is continuing to target his political opponents over their rhetoric around Māori, saying it's race-baiting.

     He says political leaders of the past have typically been race-baiters themselves or taken a middle ground – and he will instead call out racism wherever he sees it."

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979537/chris-hipkins-commits-to-calling-out-racism-and-defending-te-tiriti
     • adam 7.1.1

       6 November 2023 at 4:22 pm

       Usual simpering I feel your pain BS I expect from labour. Is it so hard for you lot to pull you collective heads out of the clouds for two minutes?

       The reality and those of you who have not be a the sticky end of racism, fail to see over and over again, the words you utter are virtually meaningless without lived experience. That the right words mean nothing, it actions and deeds which count. And here labour were woeful. With Hipkins being, well, just bad.

       And because you have missed the whole picture, which I'm not surprised. I said racist shit – which is not just a token calling out of racism. But the whole systemic problem we have in this country with how Māori are treated day by day. And with elections becoming the focal point of racist fucks and their hangers on getting the support of the media, the state, and the money.

       IF you look at the votes Māori got labour are not into racism. But they did get they the woke speaking points don't cut the mustard against racist fucktards who now make a large portion of our new government.
       • Louis 7.1.1.1

         6 November 2023 at 8:05 pm

         Disagree with your patronizing opinion. "woke speaking points"? sounds like Martyn Bradbury.
         • adam 7.1.1.1.1

           6 November 2023 at 8:23 pm

           Have a nice week in lala land.
           • Louis 7.1.1.1.1.1

             6 November 2023 at 9:23 pm

             Could say the same to you, adam.
             • adam …

               6 November 2023 at 10:59 pm

               I'm not the one who thinks racism can be beaten by words.

               Go back and reread that stuff post, Hipkins is weak. He defends policy and does not attack them for their racist shit. Instead, rabbits on about it being their policy, or interpretation of words that are at fault. Once, just once he calls a spade a spade.

               But what ever, you're on you're own waka.
               • Louis …

                 7 November 2023 at 1:49 am

                 “you’re on your own waka”. As are you.

                 Who said "racism can be beaten by words"?

                 How do you propose to combat racism?

                 Calling out racism is weak?
   • newsense 7.2

     5 November 2023 at 11:31 pm

     Yep. Nanaia was attacked as brutally as Jacinda and hung out to dry on 3 Waters, then clearly part of the scapegoating when Hipkins team came in.

     We can see the difference in National’s plans: basically the same but cutting out Maori involvement.

     The legislative plan for this uniquely 50% plus parliament was incoherently sold and delivered late, if at all. If this is not front and centre of the review by Labour then a stitch up is happening.

     The right was already wedging hard over perceived separatism and centralisation and the damage was done and the political momentum lost before water reform had even properly got out of the gate.

     Labour’s response, after some tutuing, was to be in the words of Toby Manhire ‘a right wing government’ cutting spending and being responsive to the Orewa speech crowd.

     As Labour said to the poor vote and the green vote, ‘whaddrya going to do, vote National?’ and many decided not to vote or to vote for an alternative.

     In the case of Maori this may be stronger than a protest vote. Te Pati Maori provided a strong voice in parliament and the party seems young and energised, similarly to the Greens. It’s interesting though that only the Greens are accused of being vote splitters. It’s the same or closely related thought process, it’s just the electorate climate is different.

     Actions speak louder than words, Louis. The wedge issue that gave the right momentum alongside COVID was the role and relationship of Maori to our state. Many on the right would like conquest by ballot box and this sells in some communities.

     If you stand by people under attack, but they go down, then either your defense was weak or of little value. Labour, from my point of view, was desperately throwing people overboard to maintain poll ballast, but it was illusory. All they were doing was establishing their weakness.
     • Louis 7.2.1

       6 November 2023 at 1:14 am

       Disagree with your opinion, newsense.
       • newsense 7.2.1.1

         6 November 2023 at 3:59 pm

         Please be clearer? What do you disagree with and why?

         Hipkins lead Labour has been more right wing than previous leaders. Do you not agree that he backed away from the Maori caucus and cogovernance in an attempt to appease the right wing noise?

         Overall the government was pro-Maori. But having a mana wahine with a moko as our foreign minister lead to a backlash and Labour was part of that backlash because of the polls or because of internal factions imo. The Hipkins lead government was clearly more right wing than the Ardern government.
         • Louis 7.2.1.1.1

           6 November 2023 at 8:14 pm

           Disagree with your opinion, all of it. No to your question and what internal factions? Are you implying New Zealand shouldn't have a "wahine with a moko as our foreign minister" because it will upset the racists?
           • newsense 7.2.1.1.1.1

             7 November 2023 at 12:15 am

             No, not at all.

             I’m angry that Labour didn’t support Nanaia more, both in launching a signature policy and as she came under fire for who she was.
             • Louis …

               7 November 2023 at 1:35 am

               In your previous post @ 7.2.1.1, you specifically referred to Nanaia's role as Foreign Affairs Minister. In what way do you think Labour didn't support her in that role?

               "signature policy"? Are you implying that Labour should not have important policies to address issues fronted by Wāhine Māori? that Nanaia shouldn't have held ministerial roles because she is a Wāhine Māori? and that it is Labour's fault that there are racists?

               Regarding Three Waters and co-governance, (interestingly, the latter was supported and implemented during the time of the previous Key National government), Chris Hipkins would agree with you, and in the link provided, he also defended Marama Davidson. I don't think Chris Hipkins is the outright heinous right-winger you think he is.

               "I think if I reflect critically on that period, we probably left Nanaia Mahuta out on her own defending the Three Waters reform program and the co-governance debate by herself for longer than we should have," Hipkins said.

               "I actually think Nanaia bore the brunt of that [debate]. It was very unfair. It became very personalised to her."

               Hipkins said it was one of the reasons he took the Local Government portfolio off Mahuta in his first Cabinet reshuffle.

               "I wasn't willing to allow that to continue… I think she deserved better than that."

               He added many people who oppose Three Waters don't understand the water infrastructure changes.

               Instead, the Prime Minister said they've "just heard the dog whistle racism that's associated with it".

               https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/04/nanaia-mahuta-left-to-defend-three-waters-alone-for-too-long-chris-hipkins.html
               • newsense …

                 8 November 2023 at 12:21 am

                 I feel we are very close in our loyalties- but you are much kinder to Chris Hipkins than I am!

                 I freakn loved being represented on the international stage by mana wahine and having a Polynesian voice (Maori being that) speaking about the Pacific, including climate change.

                 I think there are plenty of racists in Labour or at the least plenty happy with appeasement of racists. I don’t think Nanaia was supported by Labour as she came under attack, whether by incompetence or by the political self interest of avoiding a controversial issue.

                 Do you not think that Hipkins took the party to the right?
                 And part of this was appeasing the clamour around cogovernance and strong biculturalism?

                 Hipkins also said a wealth tax and stronger redistribution of wealth (after the opposite happening during COVID) couldn’t happen because people were in a cost of living crisis. Some of his arguments may be bullshit. The words and message through deeds may be different.

                 Thank you for engaging! I do like Chippy, but less so as PM.
                 • Louis …

                   8 November 2023 at 1:07 am

                   Well, that's your opinion and I am not here to change that.
8. Tricledrown 8

   5 November 2023 at 6:17 pm

   Maori are saying and have said in the past don't take these seats for granted that's how NZfirst and Tau Henare took all the Maori seats.Maori are smart voters by splitting their vote creates an overhang 2 MPs for the price of one.Homelessness poverty the cost of living has been tougher on Maori than most. Then the quality and passion of TPM MPs are better than Labour hierarchy appointed MPs.
   • Louis 8.1

     5 November 2023 at 6:57 pm

     "Labour hierarchy appointed MPs"??
9. Tiger Mountain 9

   6 November 2023 at 6:57 am

   Some voters adopted lunkhead mode and supported the Natzos, whether out of despair at Labour’s election losing “Cap’n’s calls” or some twisted revenge on Jacinda for helping save 20,000 NZers from a gruesome COVID death by suffocation

   However, many Māori voters positively supported TPM. Debbie Ngarewa Packer has long welcomed “Ngati Tiriti”–non Māori whether they be pākehā or other Tauiwi that support their current agenda and the thesis that when Māori do well, we all benefit. The Greens and Te Pāti Māori attract support for their policies rather than some lesser evil basis like NZ Labour.

   Labour needs to democratise its affairs asap and transfer power from Fraser House and Caucus to ordinary members or it will be further diminished in 2026. When a neo Blairite such as Mr Hipkins can alienate David Parker and Robbo you know there is big trouble in the organisation.
10. Ad 10

    6 November 2023 at 9:01 am

    It is weird how Labour pushed the strongest pro-Maori policies in NZ history and got wrinsed by Maori seat Maori.

    That set of pro -Maori policies will never, ever happen again.

    The Maori that prefer colour-blind policies remain in power.
    • Incognito 10.1

      6 November 2023 at 9:35 am

      Nope, not weird. Labour, and the Greens, created the wave and TPM rode it better. It’s poor political management creating the impetus and then severing losing the connection with it.
      • Ad 10.1.1

        6 November 2023 at 10:18 am

        The presumption that Maori generally vote left is obviously wrong.

        It's Maori enrolled on the Maori roll that tend to vote left.

        Whatever TPM 'rode' was a ride to nowhere near power. To re-quote U2, Labour gave them everything they ever wanted. It wasn't what they wanted.

        With all Maori seats nowhere near power, the representation of Maori we should focus on isn't the Maori seats.

        What we need to focus on is the Maori who are now in or being negotiated into power.
        • Incognito 10.1.1.1

          6 November 2023 at 6:14 pm

          The presumption that Maori generally vote left is obviously wrong.

          It's Maori enrolled on the Maori roll that tend to vote left.

          I don’t follow your argument. We’re talking about the Māori seats, obviously (as per the OP), where TPM gave Labour a real hiding.

          So back to the 2023 Parliament. We have 33 MPs who represent Māori from all walks of life, level of engagement with, and knowledge of, te ao Māori (the Māori world) and desire to be involved in it. Their spread across the political spectrum is as broad as I’ve ever seen.

          […]

          It is noteworthy that National’s five Maori MPs all won general electorates.

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/the-most-maori-in-parliament-ever-significant-or-so-what [currently behind subscription wall]

          TPM + LAB + GP have 21 Māori MPs and NAT + ACT + NZF have 12 Māori MPs. I’ll leave it to you to project this onto the Left-Right political axis if you think that’s useful for the analysis & discussion. IMO, NZ politics is much more complex than this.

          To re-quote U2, Labour gave them everything they ever wanted.

          Your narrative is overselling it. Labour ‘promised’ a lot, and possibly chewed off more than could handle, but delivered little. When Hipkins took the reins, they walked back much of the proposals and associated narratives.

          With all Maori seats nowhere near power, the representation of Maori we should focus on isn't the Maori seats.

          What we need to focus on is the Maori who are now in or being negotiated into power.

          That’s an interesting point, which is addressed indirectly in the link above.

          Both TPM and GP have strong policy platforms that they have stuck with throughout, unlike Labour, which threw things out of the basket to get more lift in the polls (and went up like a lead balloon, especially in the Māori seats). TPM and GP also play a long-term game, relatively speaking, with much more emphasis on relationships. Labour seems to have lost [sight of] these things.

          Both TPM and GP need strong advocacy from their MPs – people and policies go hand-in-hand.
          • gsays 10.1.1.1.1

            7 November 2023 at 6:28 am

            "TPM and GP also play a long-term game, relatively speaking, with much more emphasis on relationships. Labour seems to have lost [sight of] these things."

            I agree and folk don't place enough weight on this point.

            Tamhere, in the run up to the election said on The Working Group, 'we are less interested in polls etc, we are building a movement'. They are taking a multi-generational view of politics.

            As contrasted by Labour's seemingly constant polling and adherence to the results. Labour's focus is too short term therefore making Captain's Calls and backing away from policy planks easy. Giving the appearance of bobbing around, adrift in choppy political waters.

            (Sorry about the mangled nautical metaphor).
            • Incognito 10.1.1.1.1.1

              7 November 2023 at 11:00 am

              Indeed, as does the GP:

              His [Gareth Hughes, a former Green Party MP] former party must be considering how it can leverage the 2023 result into “permanent medium party status”, and contesting electorates in Christchurch and Dunedin.

              https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/seeds-planted-for-a-green-win-in-christchurch [currently behind subscription wall]
    • Tiger Mountain 10.2

      6 November 2023 at 9:44 am

      Ah, yes–ethnicity and post colonial fallout realities are not all–class left policies challenging capital are also needed to fix and fund things effectively. Te Pāti Māori did support a wealth tax and much of the long list of ‘for the many not the few’ type moves we all know, so they got the votes rather than “not on my watch” Labour candidates.
      • Ad 10.2.1

        6 November 2023 at 10:33 am

        TPM doesn't matter for the next 3 years. They have consigned themselves to policy fringes that are already silenced.

        What we need to get our head around is conservative Maori making a very big impact in this election, inside National and NZFirst.

        – Dr Shane Reti (Whāngarei), National

        – Tama Potaka (Hamilton West), National

        – Northcote MP Dan Bidois (Ngāpuhi/Ngāti Maniapoto), National, is bone cancer survivor, trained as a butcher, then went on to become an economist, here and overseas, graduating with a masters in public policy from Harvard University.

        – Rangitata MP James Meager (Ngai Tahu), National, is a solicitor. A former press secretary to Paula Bennett, he was born and raised in Timaru.

        – New Plymouth MP, David MacLeod (Ngāti Mutunga/Ngāti Porou), Naotinal. He grew up on a Manaia dairy farm and is a former director of Fonterra, Port of Taranaki and the Parininihi Ki Waitōtara Trust.

        – David Seymour (Ngapuhi), ACT. I mean who knows he may just be outplayed by Peters who will get Cabinet seats, get too pissed off and go to the crossbenches.

        – Nicole McKee o the list from ACT is Ngapuhi

        – Then of course Winston Peters NZFirst. (Nati Wai, Ngapuhi, Ngati Hine)

        – Shane Jones (Te Aopouri, Ngati Tekoto), NZFirst.

        – Casey Castello (her grandfathers' land is Whakapara), NZFirst.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/casey-costello-first-i-am-a-new-zealander/SLZ7KBXLV7TLPQPKRAJE4UK7PA/

        – Jenny Marcroft (Ngapuhi), NZFirst.

        I am sure I have missed other Maori in National now but I'm really highlighting how close conservative Maori are to power now, and how large a part they had to play in the election.

        We need to forget TPM this term. They are simply not where Maori are going to be at the table.
        • Dennis Frank 10.2.1.1

          6 November 2023 at 11:05 am

          Yeah, point well-made. Yet all these folks will not caucus together, right? Well, they could, if contractual binding doesn't stop them, but they'll be a handbrake on any radical framing tendencies. That's good for consensus politics.
        • Tiger Mountain 10.2.1.2

          6 November 2023 at 1:41 pm

          What an outrageous statement–“TPM doesn’t matter for the next three years” well the news is they matter a lot because younger voters are starting to be engaged politically, and Parliament is just one part of that. Nanaia Mahuta and other losing Labour MPs might think differently from Ad at this time.

          And what a pathetic, mostly, roll of dishonour. The majority are potatoes–brown outside and pro capitalist inside. Māori have long had a hierarchy and been entrepreneurs and traders. A pro capitalist tendency and tory support streak has existed in Māoridom since colonisation.

          “The table?”–the new gens will cut the legs off it!
          • Ad 10.2.1.2.1

            6 November 2023 at 1:54 pm

            Welcome to the shift in power. Get your head around it before it explodes.

            The Maori form of capitalism may take some getting used to, but again, get used to it.
            • Tiger Mountain 10.2.1.2.1.1

              6 November 2023 at 5:32 pm

              Feel free to not suggest I do anything!

              Your comment does not address my point that young Māori are becoming politically aware, and more importantly–active. There have always been establishment Māori but only a minority, just like Tauiwi of all stripes.
          • newsense 10.2.1.2.2

            6 November 2023 at 4:33 pm

            Ad hath spoken. Please ignore all the voters in Maori seats. Remember democracy is a winner take all game of autocracy. Right wingers were entirely invisible and silent for the last 6 years for this reason.

            Beginning to think Ad might be Peter Costello…because one of the dials seems to be smug prick.

            In the same way Pasifika will be completely ignored as well? The only MPs that matter are in government? Did they suddenly look to Alfred Ngaro as their leader simply because he was a member of the government? Did he usher in a special Pasifika capitalism because he was a National MP? Get used to the Ngaro Pasifika power economy, as you used to say?

            So TPM voters haven’t been involved in capitalism? There hasn’t been a two hundred plus year history of Maori capitalism, post European contact? The idea that the Tories own Maori capitalism…

            Policy that fails to be implemented don’t mean much, irrespective of intent. Labour failed Maori because they cut and ran at the sign of trouble. And were incompetent in introducing their legislation and coalition building.

            And because there is a large vocal racist electorate in NZ.

            David ‘Dancing With the Stars and Epsom coffee’ Seymour represents Maori capitalism? All of it supposedly? Keep up the good work mate.

            F- me.
        • Ghostwhowalks 10.2.1.3

          6 November 2023 at 2:39 pm

          Seymour is Ngapuhi only if you play the distant ancestry game, which makes me a Norwegian. But its not for me to ask, but others who can are

          Dont think hes even described in detail his whakapapa

          https://waateanews.com/2022/05/23/ngapuhi-needs-to-fix-seymour-problem/

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