Why I’m voting for Andrew Little

Written By: - Date published: 10:41 pm, October 15th, 2014 - 231 comments
Categories: leadership - Tags:

So since David Cunliffe endorsed Andrew Little I’ve had a few mates ask me about what he’s like because I helped out in a small way with his wage drive campaign way back in 2008 and met him a couple of times and I can say he’s the real deal. He’s got good left-wing values and he acts on them pragmatically.

There’s a recent article about him in the EPMU’s member mag, the metal, that I reckon is about right. You can read the whole thing here (the profile on him is on page 14).

He’s clearly a man who get straight to the guts of the matter:

We have a wage problem. We have a
problem with workers’ rights and with
how little power they have to get a fair
deal. And it’s not a new problem, it’s
one that’s been going on for decades
now.
“We need to fix it, and we will.”

And I think he’s got what it takes to make change. He turned what used to be quite a staid union into a progressive campaigning machine in his time there. But the old guard of the movement kicked back at him with a failed attempt to roll him in 2004. It’s not really noted in the EPMU article but it’s hinted at:

He considers that critical moment, at
the end of his first term, as one of his
low points, but out of that conflict came
a united union that sat at the heart of
a renewed and invigorated movement:
starting with 2005’s “Five in ‘05”
campaign — a push to raise wages by
five percent in a year — and carrying
through a series of industrial and
political campaigns that reasserted the
rights of members and of Kiwi workers.
“The Five in ‘05 campaign has to be a
highlight of my time with the EPMU.
We hadn’t seen significant wage rises
in nearly 20 years, but the country was
going through an economic boom and
I think that a lot of people just came
to the conclusion that they deserved
better.”
After having to play defence for so long,
the concept of driving a five percent
increase in wages seemed optimistic to
some. Little remarks, “There was a bit
of scepticism from the old hands, and
a couple of the new ones, but members
in our biggest MECA, the Metals,
endorsed a five percent claim and were
willing to back it with industrial action.
“The campaign galvanised the union
movement. It was the right thing at the
right time.”

Little’s a bit of a dark horse, but if he gets Labour into the fighting fit state he got the EPMU into, and I think he will, then he’s exactly what we need.

231 comments on “Why I’m voting for Andrew Little ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Cave Johnson 1
    15 October 2014 at 11:35 pm

    I chatted to a pretty staunch union delegate tonight. He tells me he doesn’t know Andrew personally, but that Andrew had a reputation among the union hard-liners as being a negotiator who would look for the middle ground rather than die in a ditch over an issue. The hard-liners (I have a vision of Jim Knox types) apparently think that’s a bad thing, but I’m wondering if it might be just what Labour needs. Someone to bring some professional discipline to the job of parliamentary leader rather than someone who thinks they are going to lead the team to victory on the strength of their personality. Let’s see how he comes across in the next couple of weeks.

    • SHG 1.1
      15 October 2014 at 11:41 pm

      Lord knows that what Labour needs now is someone who can find the middle ground with National.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 1.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 1:03 am

        In your hell, Lord knows you can’t see any real alternative involving the Labour Party because you were so attached to Planet Key in your life as a hopeless slithery mortal worshipping obscenely greedy Mammon.

    • Peter 1.2
      16 October 2014 at 8:34 am

      Has he the charisma to convince the majority of kiwis in work that in fact they are getting a raw deal, and that he has a better way? Or, will the opposition be given more ammunition to bash the unions?

    • finbar 1.3
      16 October 2014 at 8:45 am

      I can recall working along side Alluminium joiners who where members of the Building Trades Union.The where on the same pay rate as qualified carpenters,and Aluminium fabricating companies workers where also paid Caprenters rates who where covered by the Building Tades Union.The E.M.P.U.under Little!s,governence took the Building Trades Union, to the arbitration court seeking seeking demarcation between Aluminium joiners and Timber joiners claiming, because they where working with Aluminium they should be belong to the Engineers.They won and those Aluminium joiners took a pay cut of $2.50 per hour for the privlage of being part of the E.M.P;.U.

      Great forward thinking Unionist is Mr Little,also a great beleiver in the middle road of negotiation better known as strike free bargaining, leading to selling off condition for the minimum of pay rises.

      • quartz 1.3.1
        16 October 2014 at 9:17 am

        I looked this up and the arbitration court ceased existing in 1973. Demarcation disappeared in 1991 with the Employment Contracts Act. From the article linked in the post Little didn’t join the EPMU until 1992 and he wasn’t leader until 2000.

        What you’re claiming isn’t just untrue. It’s impossible.

        • finbar 1.3.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 9:59 am

          It is true.I may have my court names wrong,however ,it is fact. I was in the court on the day,furthermore it was about the pay cuts these workers took,with the backing of support of the employers on behalf of the E.M.P.U.

          • quartz 1.3.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 10:57 am

            That still seems a bit out of whack to me. Do you remember what year it was?

            • finbar 1.3.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 12:18 pm

              It was around the time of Shipley,when all unions where poaching what ever they could grasp as their survival Undersdtanding that there where those unions who did not conform to that usury of survival.

              • quartz …
                16 October 2014 at 12:58 pm

                Wasn’t Rex Jones the head of the EPMU then?

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  16 October 2014 at 3:15 pm

                  If this case happened as Finbar remembers, it would be in the early nineties and Little would have been employed only as a relatively junior lawyer. The Engineers Union, as it then was, did pursue a fairly aggressive strategy of gobbling up the membership of other unions, so it does sound like something that might have happened.

                  However, one of the most significant things that Little did when he took the reigns of the union the best part of a decade later was to negotiate a non poaching agreement with the other major private sector unions (the Kingsgate accord). His approach has always been to work with, not against, other unions.

                  So perhaps this case actually happened and Little did the job he was paid to do at the time, but learned a bigger lesson. Certainly, the fact that the BTU voluntarily amalgamated with the EPMU a few years ago suggests they got over it. Perhaps you should too, Finbar!

                  • finbar …
                    16 October 2014 at 4:09 pm

                    It did happen.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      16 October 2014 at 4:17 pm

                      Yes, but wasn’t the point of your comment to share somethign negative about Little? Can you respond to what others have said?

                  • finbar …
                    16 October 2014 at 4:21 pm

                    Not about that Te Reo,its about what is for sale..
                    What we are looking at as LABOUR,is a poor bunch of pretenders,who!s front is as firing up a fire in a rain storm.What is on offer outside one,is another term Key,to be replaiced by a middle glamour road of Nash and Ardern,both lost in their personality other than the understanding of what the meaning of labour party is and was born for.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      16 October 2014 at 4:33 pm

                      Crikey, you’re losing it finbar. The EPMU (note spelling) represents the miners because the Miners’ union decided that amalgamating with the EPMU was actually in their best interests. Nobody forced them and they are still there today. The EPMU poured the best part of a million bucks into the Pike River enquiry and were the only organisation to not get their costs covered by the Government. Even Whittall, who killed 29 men, got his lawyers paid for by the taxpayer.

                      What is your point? What are you trying to say?

                      Edit: finbar deleted most of his comment, which was a load of cobblers about the EPMU and Pike River.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      16 October 2014 at 4:37 pm

                      Hmmmm more like FUBAR methinks.

                    • finbar …
                      16 October 2014 at 9:10 pm

                      Who said anything about the miners union amalgamating with the E,M.P.U.Little is no world mover and never will be.Thats in his manor and his way.

                      Labour are lost,and no smile liberal like us, is going to change that, like the three collar and ties chancining it.That some ignorant morons say look at her,what does she look like.Its not about looks it is about rock and roll,and that Mahuta lady can rock with the best of them.OOps,shall i call in the make up artist to tell me about socialsit Labour understanding. Yes please, do,i have, been upsetting those E.M.P.U. union members,and their comfortable wage barriers.

                      Hows your debt going,how long has your compliance left.

    • Lanthanide 1.4
      16 October 2014 at 9:11 am

      Labour’s dying in a ditch over taking away compulsory student unions in the 1st term of this government proved to be a very stupid delaying tactic on their part, because National was able to break the filibuster (and probably knew it the whole time) at the end of the term, and in doing-so were able to block any other members bills from progressing.

      Since then we’ve had multiple important opposition member’s bills drawn, including Marriage Equality, Feed The Kids and Labour’s MMP changes bill.

      I’m sure there are other important members bills we’ve had recently as well, but Labour dying in a ditch over compulsory student unions, which they ultimately lost, hurt no-one but themselves.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 1.4.1
        16 October 2014 at 1:31 pm

        What has this got to do with Little running for leader ?

        • Lanthanide 1.4.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 4:54 pm

          Try reading the comment I replied to, which said this:

          but that Andrew had a reputation among the union hard-liners as being a negotiator who would look for the middle ground rather than die in a ditch over an issue.

          So I gave an example of Labour as a whole, under Goff, dying in a ditch over something ultimately unimportant that hindered them from actually getting other productive stuff done – as they did in the last parliamentary term.

          • Roztoz 1.4.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 6:36 pm

            Voluntary student membership has destroyed the student movement that build leaders like Andrew and Grant.

            It was not unimportant for our movement or progressive civil society.

            • Disraeli Gladstone 1.4.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 7:32 pm

              Student unions were dying before VSM. It’s just making the death a little quicker.

              I could never quite get over the hurdle of the breach of freedom of association. ACTs on Campus is full of total idiots, but I don’t think those idiots should be forced to join (and pay) for a union that would openly call them idiots. It’s a tad unfair.

            • Lanthanide 1.4.1.1.1.2
              17 October 2014 at 9:29 am

              Student unions still exist.

              The way the UCSA is structured at Canterbury is that the university contracts out student support services to the UCSA. The university charges a fee for these services to the students, and pays that money to the UCSA.

              if you cease to be a member of the UCSA, nothing happens, because the UCSA was never collecting membership fees anyway. You still have to pay the fee to the university for the student services.

  2. Whateva next? 2
    15 October 2014 at 11:40 pm

    He appears to let the divisions in caucus go over his head, he has wisdom, so he is getting my vote.

  3. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 3
    16 October 2014 at 12:58 am

    I would like to see him, as leader of the Labour Party, with his experience and nous, strengthening as well as recreating the tripartite union-business-government relationship for a stronger economy and fairer society in post-neoliberal NZ.

  4. Colonial Viper 4
    16 October 2014 at 1:14 am

    I look forward to hearing more from Andrew Little.

    • Tracey 4.1
      16 October 2014 at 8:27 am

      my concern is that he had to work SO hard during so called boom times AND a labour govt to get the wage rises. some of that labour govt are in caucus with him…

    • Skinny 4.2
      16 October 2014 at 11:37 am

      CV, Heard all the leader candidates earlier today in their first shakedown. All spoke well with Mahuta suprising many. Robertson probably had the most polished speeches. They got pinned down on repugnant policies and politely put ‘refresh’ of caucus. I gathered both Parker & Robertson were skirting the issue. Parker by age/time served would lead to a refresh, and Robertson by attaching it to lifting the party vote, however as the recent result shows, no new blood off the list cause the party vote was terrible. Little had already indicated ‘change’ so you could assume it encompasses this.

      No doubt they will hone their speech skills. One thing is clear there are mixed views on who to support.

      • Tracey 4.2.1
        16 October 2014 at 11:58 am

        anyone mention how they will blunt the certain avalanche of bad press and dirty tricks

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.2
        16 October 2014 at 12:29 pm

        Thanks for the first hand report Skinny. Very useful to give us down south a heads up. Parker and Robertson are local quantities down here in Otago. We know much less about Little and Mahuta. I have met both of them just very briefly at conference etc.

        • Skinny 4.2.2.1
          16 October 2014 at 1:18 pm

          Your welcome CV. In a close contest with many voting delegates not really politically aware, a delegate came forward and spoke to the issues that count and critiqued the answers given by the contenders. Job well done chap pat yourself on the back.

          Haha why yes I think he will.

          AL
          GR
          DP
          NM

  5. Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 5
    16 October 2014 at 5:21 am

    “We have a wage problem. We have a problem with workers’ rights..”

    Once upon a time a wage was a living wage.
    It was enough to pay the rent without a major stress-out.

  6. Ad 6
    16 October 2014 at 5:23 am

    Mahuta preferences will fully go to Little,
    And Robertson preferences go to Parker,
    Will someone do the decent thing and propose they form a pairing?
    This would stop caucus appointing the deputy straight out, but still unite the core factions.

    I’m presuming Little pulls over O’Connor as a First
    All South Island MPs to Parker on First Preference
    Except maybe Poto to Mahuta, then Little as Second
    All North Island ABC’s including Nash to Robertson on First, Parker second
    Davis will go Parker, then Little I suspect. A weird one.
    South Auckland MPs break along gender; Su’a to Little straight off, the others to Mahuta first

    South Auckland members and affiliates will probably bring this against Parker’s strong caucus second preferences to crown Little.

    But King of what exactly?

    • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 6.1
      16 October 2014 at 6:35 am

      Will someone do the decent thing and propose they form a pairing?
      Seconded.

      This would stop caucus appointing the deputy straight out
      Arranged marriages shackle both partners and roles.
      They impede, rather than empower.

      • wekarawshark 6.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 9:39 am

        Who form a pairing? There are four candidates.

        • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 6.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 9:56 am

          If any two of them got together and backed each other openly, said, “We can work together as a team, either way if it comes to that”, they would seem to be in a stronger position for moving ahead after 15 Nov. (and yes, I would hope Andrew and Nanaia, but just saying..)

    • Lanthanide 6.2
      16 October 2014 at 9:15 am

      Stop trying to gerrymander your preferred outcome. Let the process take its course.

      If the membership think that the way the deputy is chosen should be changed, they can propose that at the next conference.

      • Ad 6.2.1
        16 October 2014 at 10:33 am

        It’s a prediction. Too meek to try yourself, clearly.

        • Lanthanide 6.2.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 12:45 pm

          This is hardly a prediction, it’s a request:
          “Will someone do the decent thing and propose they form a pairing?
          This would stop caucus appointing the deputy straight out, but still unite the core factions.”

          • Ad 6.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 1:27 pm

            caucus always appoints the deputy; inherently disempowering.
            hence the request to the candidates.

        • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.1.2
          16 October 2014 at 4:41 pm

          All South Island MPs to Parker on First Preference

          Rino probably to GR first preference, according to the nomination forms.

  7. Ad 7
    16 October 2014 at 5:45 am

    Sorry forgot Westies.
    Members and affiliates will go First to Little straight off, with a few moist ones putting Mahuta First, Little second

    Interesting to check if Ardern can whip her team to break hard for Robertson.
    She did last time, and her machine is strong, but I haven’t detected it yet.

    Won’t be enough. My bet is Little from preferences.

  8. phillip ure 8
    16 October 2014 at 7:18 am

    maybe fashionistas will flock to him..

    ..for his brave/single-handed campaign to return some respectability/’cool’ to the..

    ..to the jersey-vest..?

    (..it’s a bit like doing the double-‘d’..with the denim..

    ..it takes either a brave or an unthinking man to strut his stuff..

    ..in the much-maligned jersey-vest..)

    • Clean_power 8.1
      16 October 2014 at 7:21 am

      @Mr Ure: Could you tell me what are you trying to say? Sarcasm or irony drive you?

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 7:26 am

        “.. Sarcasm or irony drive you?..”

        ..you got it in one..!

        ..’sarcasm and irony’ are like oxygen to/for me..

        ..(and mix in a soupcon of withering-contempt..

        ..and you are getting close..)

        ..and have you had the standard rightwinger s.o.h-bye-pass @ birth..?

        ..if so..my condolances..

        ..what a grey grey world it must be for those humourless souls..eh..?

        (and i full understand that/why you ‘don’t get it’..

        ..c.f..’s.o.h.-byepass’..)

    • les 8.2
      16 October 2014 at 8:35 am

      love it!

  9. BM 9
    16 October 2014 at 7:40 am

    I believe Andrew Little is by far the best choice for Labour leader.

    The only way you can unite different factions is to have a leader who doesn’t belong to any factions.

    • Te Reo Putake 9.1
      16 October 2014 at 8:07 am

      Yeah, that worked brilliantly for Kevin Rudd.

      • SHG 9.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 12:32 pm

        You mean, the way it got him elected as Prime Minister?

        • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 3:23 pm

          No, the way it got him dumped as leader of the ALP.

          • SHG 9.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 4:06 pm

            No, Kevin Rudd’s personality got him dumped as leader of the ALP.

            • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 4:19 pm

              Nope, not even close. His personality may have been a reason for some to want him gone, but there were plenty of other negatives about him as well. And when the knives came out, it was the lack of factional alignment that hurt him.

              It’s a major irony; his nonalignment was a factor in getting him elected leader, because was seen as independent and IOU free. But when he was under pressure, that lack of a faction behind him meant he had no effective organisation to block Gillard.

              So, at the beginning, it was an asset. At the time of the Gillard coup, it was a real weakness.

              • SHG …
                16 October 2014 at 4:32 pm

                If Rudd was not batshit crazy there wouldn’t have BEEN a coup.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  16 October 2014 at 4:38 pm

                  Agreed! I’ve heard some amazing stories from Aussie ALP mates and the temper tanties, nitpicking and narcissism are just the start of it. A very odd man.

    • Tracey 9.2
      16 October 2014 at 8:29 am

      when did you join the LP so you could vote Bm?

  10. vto 10
    16 October 2014 at 7:57 am

    I would vote for Andrew above the others.

    The problem though will be not within Labour – the problem will countering the obvious counter from the right wing, namely that he is a union man and he has never been in the so-called ‘real world’. That will be made loud and clear and it will resonate with a huge number of kiwis, rightly or wrongly.

    How does Andrew counter that? That must be a very important issue in deciding who should be leader (as it should for each of the contenders).

    Go Andrew!!

    • BM 10.1
      16 October 2014 at 8:18 am

      Demonstrate that he isn’t anti business.

      Rightly or wrongly unions are seen as being not particularly friendly towards the business community, if Andrew Little can change that mindset and give the impression that Labour can work with all factions of the community, he’ll go a long way as Labour leader.

      It would also do wonders for Labours cashflow.

      • vto 10.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 8:24 am

        True. Big challenge.

      • Te Reo Putake 10.1.2
        16 October 2014 at 8:31 am

        He’s actually sat on the boards of a couple of businesses, BM. He also ran the largest private sector union for a decade, negotiating with some of NZ’s largest businesses. I understand he enjoys the respect of many of the CEO’s he dealt with in that time. He also ran the EPMU in a business like way; it’s an organisation with a large turnover, millions in the bank and a staff of 100 or so. It’s actually way bigger and more complex than the average Kiwi workplace.

        The philosophy of the EPMU was that upskilling workers was in the interests of both workers and businesses and that wage rises alone were not good enough for a modern workforce. It follows that profitable enterprises can best afford to both offer decent wages and conditions and invest in skills. So it was in the EPMU’s interests that businesses made a buck.

        If you have any evidence that he is anti-business, now would be a good time to pony up.

        • BM 10.1.2.1
          16 October 2014 at 8:43 am

          If you have any evidence that he is anti-business, now would be a good time to pony up

          You misinterpreted what I wrote which was

          Rightly or wrongly unions are seen as being not particularly friendly towards the business community,

          For example, Helen Kelly and the hobbits as well as the ports of Auckland fiasco hasn’t really painted the union movement in a very good light.

          Nothing to do with Andrew Little, but as VTO said, Little is a union man and is therefore going to be lumped in with the other unionists.

          With what you wrote, regarding Andrew Littles business experience I’m sure Little won’t have too much difficulty demonstrating that he isn’t cut from the same cloth as Kelly and the rest of the union die-hards.

          • Te Reo Putake 10.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 9:05 am

            Gotcha. And a good point in itself.

            But you also wrote “Demonstrate that he isn’t anti business.” So I did. Now that you have a few facts to work with, I expect you’ll be championing his virtues on every forum you lurk in, because truth and clarity are your signature traits, eh.

            • wekarawshark 10.1.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 9:44 am

              Except our dear concern trole is suggesting that the way to deal with the perception issues is to say that Little isn’t like other unionists 🙄

              • Tracey …
                16 October 2014 at 12:00 pm

                which means will be anti union.

                • wekarawshark …
                  16 October 2014 at 12:44 pm

                  what?

                  • Tracey …
                    16 October 2014 at 12:49 pm

                    people who say they want someone not like kelly usually mean that was is needed is someone anti unions or not pro union.

                    lp has stood by while it became a dirty word… and they happily take the votes and support and donations while batting their eyelids at business.

                    hope that is clearer.

        • vto 10.1.2.2
          16 October 2014 at 8:48 am

          True too TRP, though the point is entirely about perception and not reality.

          Perhaps it should be pointed out more often that a union is in fact a business. It is a business organisation operating entirely in the free market place, without coercion or compulsion.

          Take a leaf out of the right wing handbook and talk it up as a business, a labour supply business, just like a parts supply business, or an electricity supply business, part of the overall business economy …

          • Tracey 10.1.2.2.1
            16 October 2014 at 8:54 am

            or start calling it an association, thats what that dick o’connor does for the police union…

            a business association of mining members… of forestry members…

            • Tautoko Mangō Mata 10.1.2.2.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 10:24 am

              and funnily enough, the PPTA is always referred to (by the RW) as the Secondary Teacher’s Union.

              • vto …
                16 October 2014 at 10:49 am

                Yep, see what I mean about names and perceptions and the basic rules of the right wing handbook?

                They realise that the word “union” comes with baggage that is extremely unhelpful to both the left and the unions themselves.

                Wake up, I say..

          • phillip ure 10.1.2.2.2
            16 October 2014 at 8:57 am

            become more rightwing..?..y’reckon..?

            ..reassure them that a little-led labout party/govt will continue to do s.f.a. for the low-paid workers/poorest..?

            ..that’s the winning-formula..?..y’reckon..?

            • vto 10.1.2.2.2.1
              16 October 2014 at 9:04 am

              No mr ure, not become more right wing at all. Just change the name. Play to public perceptions and change the reality of people’s understanding of unions.

              • phillip ure …
                16 October 2014 at 9:09 am

                wd you run with/be happy with ‘refresh’ for that new name..?

                (‘have a little refresh..!’..or..’refresh a little..!’..?..poss. campaign-slogans..?)

                .and we are doing this..out of fear of offending bosses..eh..?

                • vto …
                  16 October 2014 at 9:17 am

                  Perhaps I need to explain a little more. I used the word refresh to outline what needs to happen to the names, not that refresh should be the name. I thought that would have been clear.

                  And no it is not out of offending bosses. The words ‘union’ and ‘labour’ are very old words and they have, rightly or wrongly, accumulated baggage over the years. Today many people imo, on hearing those words, instantly revert to perception and assumption and anything those organisations do are tarred from that point by those perceptions.

                  Tracey made a good point about the Police Union above – they call it an association. I would surmise that most of the public don’t consider the Police Association a union, and the Police benefit from that I think.

                  Think phil, think. Refresh you own mind. Refresh the ure.

                  • Tautoko Mangō Mata …
                    16 October 2014 at 2:40 pm

                    Mind you, the Taxpayers Union use the word “Union” to try to convince people that they are a group of ordinary people.
                    “We are New Zealanders who have formed a union to stand up for hardworking New Zealand taxpayers. We represent the common interests of all taxpayers. We want to become New Zealand’s largest union.”

                    “We represent the common interests of all taxpayers.”!!?? Yeah, right Jordan Williams. David Farrer!

                  • phillip ure …
                    16 October 2014 at 2:46 pm

                    vto..

                    ..shd we see if we can get those ‘baggage’-words erased from the history books..?

                    ..so..the fedration of labour..(does it still exist..?..)

                    ..should become ‘the federation of associations’..?

                    ..kinda clumsy/mushy..eh..?

                    ..’civil unions’ cd become ‘civil associations’..?

                    ..and when giving birth..women wd be in ‘association’..?

                    ..yeah..nah…eh..?

                    • dave brown …
                      17 October 2014 at 2:29 pm

                      Unions are for the working class.
                      An injury to one is an injury to all.
                      Associations are for assholes.
                      An injury to one is a risk to all.
                      In the class war it is important to have
                      names for classes and not asses.

          • Olwyn 10.1.2.2.3
            16 October 2014 at 9:59 am

            If Andrew Little were to win with the support of the unions, and subsequently formed a disciplined caucus, the perception problem would be less acute and far easier to counter. The “no one likes Cunliffe” meme was hard to counter effectively because too many of the more vocal members of the caucus did not really have his back, and it showed. A united group fights back – in a disunited group individual members disassociate themselves, and try individually to curry favour with outsiders. Under these conditions it is very easy for negative perceptions of the leader to take hold, since the leader in question lacks a solid internal defense.

      • Tracey 10.1.3
        16 October 2014 at 8:31 am

        he struggled to get a wage rise for his people in boom times and a labour govt… some of that labour govt are in his caucus.

        sadly business friendly is code for “dontbmake us pay our workers a wage to live on” and by that i doNOT mean all employers. many employers are great, just as all beneficiaries arent lazy scum…

        less than 25% of the workforce are union members the hysterical fear of them by some in business hasnt subsided tho…

      • phillip ure 10.1.4
        16 October 2014 at 8:35 am

        how about he was head of the most rightwing union around..?

        ..how about he murmered not a peep on the plight of the poor..

        ..during those long nine years of the clark labour-govt..?

        ..(‘i’m alright jack!’..y’reckon..?..)

        ..and michelle boag thinks he is perfect for the job..?

        ..little is the scary-unionist yr having when yr not having a ‘scary-unionist’..

        ..eh..?

        (trp in his 10.1.2 comment above confirms all of this..)

        ..and seeing that a large part of labours’ problems are down to their kow-towing to the corporates/rightwing for the last 30 yrs or so..

        ..are you just advocating more of the same..?

        ..let’s ‘keep the bosses happy!’..eh..?

        ..maybe labour cd adopt that as a slogan..?

        ..’labour..!..keeping the bosses happy..!..for thirty years..!..and counting..!’..

        ..eh..?

        ‘labour..!..delivering a low-wage economy/workers for business..!..for thirty years..and counting..!’

        ..eh..?

        • phillip ure 10.1.4.1
          16 October 2014 at 8:48 am

          ‘labour..!..making the rich richer..and the poor poorer..!

          ..for thirty years..and counting..!’

          ..eh..?

          ..’labour..!..the party for the workers/poor…when yr not having a party for ‘the workers/poor’.!’

          ..eh..?

          ..show me how all that isn’t so..

          ..and am i expecting big-changes in this fuck-the-poor paradigm from little..?

          ..yeah..nah..eh..?

        • The Al1en 10.1.4.2
          16 October 2014 at 8:56 am

          The tedium-o-meter in hyperbole hyperdrive.

        • Te Reo Putake 10.1.4.3
          16 October 2014 at 9:01 am

          Jeez, Phil, take a breath why doncha! During Little’s term at the head of the EPMU, wages actually did lift significantly and he moved the union distinctly to the left. The average rise over the 9 years of the Clark government for union members nudged 20%. For skilled workers, such as the tradesmen Little represented, it was even better.

          During that time, the LP dumped the ECA, bought in more even handed legislation for bargaining and gave workers an extra weeks annual leave, WFF, and lots more. To put it in a nutshell, you’re wrong about both Labour and Little.

          • phillip ure 10.1.4.3.1
            16 October 2014 at 9:15 am

            “..To put it in a nutshell, you’re wrong about both Labour and Little…”

            right..so neo-lib labour have actually really delivered for all their constituencies over the last 30 yrs..eh..?

            ..how cd i have got that so wrong..eh..?..

            ..and yes..i must confess to having a bee in my bonnet over most of the unions..

            ..mainly ‘cos of their silences on the plight of the poor…

            ..for those long nine years of that fuck-the-poor! clark labour govt..

            ..and i haven’t even heard a whisper of a fucken apology from any of them for that..

            ..for this reason alone i view most of them as uncaring/self-serving arseholes..

            ..(hope that clarifies that..)

            • vto 10.1.4.3.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 9:22 am

              So how would you have dealt with in a way that is different from Clark et al? You will need to think of something ‘refresh’ing … of course …

            • Te Reo Putake 10.1.4.3.1.2
              16 October 2014 at 9:26 am

              Oi, you! Put those goalposts back!

              We were talking about Little/Clark, Phil. Try and keep focussed, mate.

              And, yes, Clark did work hard for all Labour’s constituencies. Maybe not enough for perfectionists/abstractionists like yourself, but she definitely stopped the rot for a while.

              • phillip ure …
                16 October 2014 at 9:31 am

                right..so i am just imaging that at the end of the clark-rule we had a low-wage economy..

                ..and world-beating rankings in poverty/inequality/third world diseases in children..

                ..and the end of nine years of her marginaling/stigmating/ignoring the poorest..?

                ..was that all just a bad dream i had..?

              • phillip ure …
                16 October 2014 at 9:53 am

                @ trp..

                ..and given yr sang froid about that clark govt..and their doings..

                ..can i assume you were in none of those marginalised/ignored groups..?

                ..you ‘did ok’..during those clark yrs..?

                ..you ..were..’alright’..’jack’..?

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  16 October 2014 at 10:15 am

                  I enjoyed a variety of economic circumstances during the Clark years, Phil. Dole, 12 hour night shifts, part-time minimum wage, full time unionised collective wages, and salaried. I managed to keep the moaning to a minimum and just got on with it. Good times!

                  • The Al1en …
                    16 October 2014 at 10:17 am

                    “Good times!”

                    For the most part I’d have to agree. It was certainly a much fairer decade to live through than the present one is.

                  • phillip ure …
                    16 October 2014 at 10:19 am

                    i raised a kid on a benefit…

                    ..so i lived it…

                    ..i was one of the marginalised/stigmatised/ostracised/ignored..

                    ..for those nine long clark years.

                    ..hence the keen memories..?

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 October 2014 at 10:20 am

                      “i raised a kid on a benefit…’

                      You’re welcome.

                    • phillip ure …
                      16 October 2014 at 10:38 am

                      no..society ‘is welcome’..

                      ..i did a good job..

                      ..i upheld my end of the deal..

                      ..and having myself been raised as what used to be called a ‘latchkey-kid’..

                      ..i vowed no kid of mine wd get that treatment..

                      ..so the benefit was the only option for us..in our circumstances..

                      ..so..yep..!..until it became embarassing for him..me and the dogs met him at the school gates every afternoon..

                      .and we went to libraries..and bookshops together..

                      ..that kinda thing..

                      ..and that smile/joy/skip in his step when he saw us there waiting for him..

                      ..made up for a lot of the shit..

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 October 2014 at 10:45 am

                      As a taxpayer from 99, you’re welcome, even if you seem a little ungrateful and resentful.

                      Instead of trashing the Clark government, why not say thanks a lot Helen and co?
                      It sort of gives lie to your current sloganeering of how terrible the 00s were and how poorly the labour welfare state looked after it’s weakest and vulnerable that you could successfully raise a child on a benefit.
                      Well done state. Shows how bad things have become since 08.

                    • phillip ure …
                      16 October 2014 at 10:52 am

                      not so much because of..

                      ..more in spite of…

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 October 2014 at 10:57 am

                      Clearly by your admission it was ultimately an acceptable outcome, so be gracious and concede the importance and beneficial impact the free ride you were afforded by the HC government has had on your life.
                      It’s not hard to be genuine, try it.

                    • Aaron …
                      16 October 2014 at 11:30 am

                      As someone who lives in the society where Phil raised a happy child, who is no doubt progressing to being a functional member of society, I say thank you – to Phil.

                      That’s the sort of thing I want my taxes to be used for. Turning a baby into a functioning adult is an extremely important job and in this society it requires money to do so.

                      Only an insane culture would compromise it’s ability to raise future generations – yet that is what we are doing with a substantial part of our population. I fully expect that my taxes will be used in this way so that in 20 years I can still be living in a functional and peaceful society. Call me old-fashioned if you must…

            • phillip ure 10.1.4.3.1.3
              16 October 2014 at 9:28 am

              and it’s not w.f.f…(working for families..)

              ..that was false-marketing..

              ..it’s w.f.s.f…(working for some families..)

          • alwyn 10.1.4.3.2
            16 October 2014 at 7:43 pm

            That actually sounds a pretty awful result.
            The CPI rose, between the fourth quarter of 1999 and the fourth quarter of 2008, ie during the years that Clark was PM, by 28%, according to the Reserve Bank.
            In other words you are saying that the members of Little’s Union went steadily backward as the went up by, “nudging 20%”?
            Now tell me again why he was so good?

            • Te Reo Putake 10.1.4.3.2.1
              16 October 2014 at 8:23 pm

              Well, apart from your 28% figure apparently being plucked from a dark place south of your belt, union members actually got wage rises during the period, without clawbacks. Something non-union members did not achieve during the same period, with the exception of 2005 where Little’s union successfully got all kiwi workers some bargaining power via the 5 on ’05 campaign.

              • alwyn …
                17 October 2014 at 10:12 am

                As I pointed out in my remark I got the number from the Reserve Bank calculator. Put in 1999Q4 and 2008Q4 for the two dates and try it yourself.

                http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/monetary_policy/inflation_calculator/

                On the other hand if you don’t believe the Reserve Bank I suggest you make up some numbers of your own.
                Perhaps after you try this you can explain where you get anything that backs up your claim that non-union members never got any pay rises during the Clark Labour Government except for 2005?
                ” union members actually got wage rises during the period, without clawbacks. Something non-union members did not achieve during the same period, with the exception of 2005″
                Only ONE pay rise in 9 years you claim? Yeah Right.

  11. Chooky Shark Smile 11
    16 October 2014 at 8:36 am

    Andrew Little would make a good Deputy to Nania Mahuta

    Nania Mahuta has the pulling power for the underclass vote and women and Maori
    ( 50+% of NZ ers)

    Nanaia Mahuta would be far less easy for the right wing msm and spinners to undermine and attack …without seeming racist and sexist …(and if Nact attacked directly it would be perceived as undermining their own aspirational targeted vote to dominate the middle ground )

    In many cases it is the second in command ie the Deputy …that has the real power behind the scenes …they can weld the power without being distracted by media image ….and they are far less vulnerable to attack than if they were number one.

    Nanaia Mahuta is the smart choice for the Leader figure head of the NZ Labour Party…she would unite the Left Parties into a winning coalition

    ( and Nania Mahuta she has way more experience in Parliament than any of the other leader contenders…for her not to become leader shows discrimination and sexist and racist bias )

    • The Al1en 11.1
      16 October 2014 at 8:59 am

      You picked mip at the election and now NM for labour leader.
      I’m sensing a pattern.

      • Chooky Shark Smile 11.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 9:16 am

        well we know who did the mip in…dont we? …and I expect you supported them!

        besides which i vote on principle… and i dont ever recall saying I thought that the mip would win…i hoped they would get in however…and my vote was an expression of support and a hope they would get in

        (I note also that you are NOT replying to my arguments….but are slyly insinuating that I am a loser and pick losers…and did I say Nania Mahuta would win!…No ! …I said I picked her as a winner if she is elected Leader of the Labour Party)

        answer my arguments honestly …exactly what objections do you have to Nania Mahuta being Leader of the Labour Party?..or are you too ashamed to state your arguments here honestly?

        • The Al1en 11.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 9:33 am

          “I note also that you are NOT replying to my arguments….but are slyly insinuating that I am a loser and pick losers”

          Nothing sly about it.

          “what objections do you have to Nania Mahuta being Leader of the Labour Party?”

          Apart from having no genuine hope of winning, not (?) realising it, and still standing anyway, I have no issue with NM.
          She was the wrong choice for deputy on DC’s ticket, and nothings happened in the past couple of years that makes her suitable for leader since.

          “are you too ashamed to state your arguments here honestly?”

          lol

          • The Al1en 11.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 9:50 am

            “I am a loser and pick losers”

            Was replying to the latter point.

            And have to say, chooky shark smile – Should’ve gone for Raw shark tastes like chooky.

    • boldsirbrian 11.2
      16 October 2014 at 6:00 pm

      @ Chooky Shark Smile (11)

      I’ve with you all the way on what you say about Nanaia Mahuta, Chooky.

      She was the stand out candidate at an election meeting (organised by Poverty Action Waikato) with about 14 candidates. Given three minutes speaking time, she finished what she had to say well before the bell. Short speech and to the point. Clear and concise. No game playing. She will exhibit the very best qualities of Helen Clark when she becomes Prime Minister.

  12. vto 12
    16 October 2014 at 8:56 am

    Further to comment up thread …

    Unions need to change their name. To something like Human Resources (more imagination required)

    The Labour Party needs to change its name too.

    Take a leaf from the right wing handbook. Refresh. Play into and away from perceptions as appropriate.

    Refresh.

    • phillip ure 12.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:00 am

      how about doing a telecom..?

      ..and renaming labour as ‘refresh’..?

      .would that be meaningless enough for you..?

      • vto 12.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 9:07 am

        No silly, not something busted out of a marketing company that is shallow and meaningless like that. Not at all. Please try to understand my point ya noodle.

        • phillip ure 12.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 9:36 am

          having difficulty in even seeing yr ‘point’.

          ..let alone ‘understanding’ it…

          • vto 12.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 9:38 am

            ok

            • dave brown 12.1.1.1.1.1
              17 October 2014 at 2:54 pm

              So VTO nothing refreshed from you over the last few years.
              Still blathering on with gratuitous advice for the Left.
              Unions and Labour are two terms with a clear historical meaning.
              Just like those other historic terms, free market and liberty.
              Unions subordinate the individual to the collective in defending their wages and conditions.
              An injury to one is an injury to all.
              Labour refers to the capacity to produce value which produces all of societies wealth.
              Unions and Labour are not in need of a name change, they just need to stand up for what their names mean.
              Compare those names to free market, and liberty.
              As used by rightwing ideologues they are fake.
              The market has never been free but always manipulated by those who expropriate the wealth from Labour.
              Liberty is the freedom of the expropriators to live off the backs of wage Labour.
              What true unions and a real Labour Party would do is to liberate workers from wage slavery by expropriating the parasitic capitalists.
              If you think you can avoid this by wanking on about name changes you must take us for fools and are clearly a fool yourself.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                17 October 2014 at 3:05 pm

                I agree with what you say, but both Labour and the unions desperately need forward looking parts to what they are offering. Left wing infrastructure, alternative currencies and financing, non-conventional employment and ownership structures (including co-ops, mutuals), etc.

              • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                17 October 2014 at 3:17 pm

                Compare those names to free market, and liberty.
                As used by rightwing ideologues they are fake.

                don’t forget their word du jour “aspirational”

    • les 12.2
      16 October 2014 at 9:25 am

      I think you are right.Employees Association or similar.As for Labour…harder to ditch the heritage…and even harder to come up with a replacement ‘brand’.

  13. paddy 13
    16 October 2014 at 8:59 am

    I have 9,000 reasons to vote for Andrew Little. That’s the pitiful number of Party Votes in Wellington Central after the traitorous campaign of self glory by the 19,000 polling Grant Robertson

    • Bunji 13.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:30 am

      And yet still 1360 party votes more than Little got in New Plymouth.

      that game can be played either way…

      • phillip ure 13.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 9:37 am

        it really is a race to the bottom..

      • wekarawshark 13.1.2
        16 October 2014 at 9:54 am

        New Plymouth looks like Labour’s vote went to NZF and the GP. Makes sense to me and I doubt that any Labour candidate could have done much about that in this election.

        New Plymouth:

        http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2014/electorate-32.html

        Welly central:

        http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2014/electorate-60.html

      • paddy 13.1.3
        16 October 2014 at 10:11 am

        Twice now GR has managed to get the PV into third place. 2014 was the worst ever PV in Wellington Central.
        This is not a game Bunji. Robertson got 19,000 votes for himself and a pitiful 9,000 votes for Labour . NO other Labour candidate, no other candidate for ANY party had a worse PV/EV ratio. Take off the blinkers. Robertson is a traitor and should be purged.

        • boldsirbrian 13.1.3.1
          16 October 2014 at 5:44 pm

          @ paddy (13.1.3)

          A “traitor” because a lot of left voters selected Grant personally and the Green Party for the Party vote? I don’t think so.

          They were still voting for the same Government : A “Labour Led coalition”!
          How long will it take people to get a handle on MMP?

          I suggest that if Grant disappears, the electorate may very well become a Green seat. Will the Left be worse off? I think not. The Greens are strong in Wellington.

          The simplistic use of PV/EV ratios has validity to some degree. But it only tells a little of the full story. And that requires a little bit of deeper analysis.
          Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

          Mr. Botany (B.)

      • Colonial Rawshark 13.1.4
        16 October 2014 at 4:48 pm

        And yet still 1360 party votes more than Little got in New Plymouth.

        that game can be played either way…

        except Labour was strongly no.1 party vote 2002, 2005 in Wellington Central, and it was very narrowly lost to National 2008.

        2011, 2014 is when the Labour Party vote collapsed to 3rd in WGN Central. It really is a painfully poor performance.

        • Roztoz 13.1.4.1
          16 October 2014 at 6:45 pm

          CV, would you have Labour take votes off the Greens, which is where our vote has gone?

          Don’t forget over 2/3rd of Wellington Central voted Left. It’s stupid to assume the electorate being more left than Labour is either Grant’s fault, or a bad thing.

          Equally, Andrew shouldn’t be blamed for flying the flag in a Tory seat.

          They both reflect how unpopular Labour was to progressive urbanites and provincial kiwi battlers.

          All this reading into PV/Electorate vote crap is nonsense. You’ve all become experts with your casual correlations. When will you realise the brand is toxic outside of South Auckland? That is not a problem for Grant, or Andrew, or even DC. That’s a problem for all of us. Take some ownership over fixing it.

  14. Hagar 14
    16 October 2014 at 9:03 am

    The last two “real” working class Labour Prime Ministers and leaders were the great Norm Kirk, and Mike Moore. All the others in the last 50 years have been academics, mostly lawyers, the working class, with the exception of Helen Clark have not been served well by these “Chardonay Socialists” Does the Labour Party need another lawyer to lead them!

    • just saying 14.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:11 am

      Sorry, but in what universe is/was Mike Moore “working class”?

    • Chooky Shark Smile 14.2
      16 October 2014 at 9:30 am

      @ Hagar (which ever one you are) …”Does the Labour Party need another lawyer to lead them!”….a resounding NO!

    • JanM 14.3
      16 October 2014 at 9:36 am

      I don’t think ‘class’ comes into it, it’s more about perception and what is known as ‘the common touch’. Like it or not, many ‘working class’ NZers have an almighty chip on their shoulders about anyone perceived to be ‘up themselves’; i.e. they speak, to their way of thinking ‘posh’. That’s one good reason why I think David Cunliffe failed so badly, and the same fate awaits the others with the exception of Andrew Little (because of his union background) and Nanaia Mahuta (for obvious reasons).
      It’s why John Key is so popular – people think of him as ‘one of them’ because of his inability to speak well.
      Helen was different -it’s amazing how well men, in particular, will behave well for a bossy woman

    • JanM 14.4
      16 October 2014 at 9:36 am

      I don’t think ‘class’ comes into it, it’s more about perception and what is known as ‘the common touch’. Like it or not, many ‘working class’ NZers have an almighty chip on their shoulders about anyone perceived to be ‘up themselves’; i.e. they speak, to their way of thinking ‘posh’. That’s one good reason why I think David Cunliffe failed so badly, and the same fate awaits the others with the exception of Andrew Little (because of his union background) and Nanaia Mahuta (for obvious reasons).
      It’s why John Key is so popular – people think of him as ‘one of them’ because of his inability to speak well.
      Helen was different -it’s amazing how well men, in particular, will behave well for a bossy woman

      • SHG 14.4.1
        16 October 2014 at 12:41 pm

        Yes, of course. John Key speaks the way he does because he is unable to speak another way.

        What a fortunate coincidence that the way he speaks in public is the way that ensures the public responds positively to him.

        • blue leopard 14.4.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 12:46 pm

          …yeah public respond positively ‘cos they can’t understand him and combined with the way he waffles&obfuscates, they fall asleep.

          ‘Stunning’ tactics

    • Tracey 14.5
      16 October 2014 at 10:35 am

      roflmao @ mike moore

    • Cave Johnson 14.6
      17 October 2014 at 6:42 pm

      Little – lawyer / Union
      Parker – Lawyer
      Robertson – political staff / diplomat / academic marketer / Student union
      Mahuta – no pre-parliament occupation that I can find?
      .
      It’s not like we have the choice of truck drivers and railway workers here. At least little has both union pedigree and a proven record in leadership.

  15. Te Reo Putake 15
    16 October 2014 at 9:18 am

    Hagar is correct. Moore was a printer. Don’t think he’s ever been to uni, though he has a few honorary degrees now.

    • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1
      16 October 2014 at 9:51 am

      Mike Moore seems to have been a bit of a mix like many New Zealanders …a humble place of origin….good state schooling…blue collar work and trade union and socialist sympathies and achievements … MP, Minister and PM…Head of World Trade Organisation…now Ambassador to USA

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Moore_(New_Zealand_politician)

      No wonder the Poms with their rigid class system find New Zealanders confusing…we are basically an egalitarian society…long may it remain so against those who would wish it otherwise!.

      • The Al1en 15.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 10:12 am

        “No wonder the Poms with their rigid class system find New Zealanders confusing…”

        Since when? I find kiwis mostly one dimensional. The only confusion comes because they don’t enunciate and speak vowels properly.
        Not a deal killer, but close enough.

        And I find pom to be offensive, like paki and wog.

        • Pawsharkial 15.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 11:02 am

          TAl1en

          I’ve often thought that the Pākeha monovowel was a reaction by the colonial settlers against the fluidity of te reo (alongside the deliberate mispronunciation of Māori place-names). But obviously not, because we just; “don’t enunciate and speak vowels properly”, and the kiwi accent and dialect have no validity.

          I’d call you tauiwi myself, but you’d probably find that offensive too. “New New Zealander” just sounds very cumbersome. What do suggest as a term? For; someone who immigrates to a country, then promptly sets about lecturing its inhabitants on their political system without taking the time to understand the history and culture?

          • The Al1en 15.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 11:16 am

            So is it being called mostly one dimensional that irks, or being called it by an Englishman? Probably a bit of both.
            No need to get all protectionist and tribal on me, it’s only a light hearted observation.

            But still, it’s not hard to speak English properly. I mean I learnt when I was a baby.
            An egg isn’t an igg and a ferry isn’t a fairy, no matter where you’re from.

            “tauiwi – A Maori term for other people, this is a more polite way of referring to europeans and or people of other than maori decent
            The have come, meaning the other people of other than maori decent have arrived.”

            You can call me what you like, I’ve no hang ups about Maori. We’ve all been immigrants at some stage of the game, but pom, that’s rudely offensive.

            • Pawsharkial 15.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 11:46 am

              What irks me is your ignorance of your own ignorance. Calling; “kiwis mostly one dimensional”, only calls in to question your depth perception. You honestly can’t tell the difference between the different social groups and strata in this country?

              Also, this is the only place in the world where the New Zealand English dialect in spoken correctly. You are the one with a funny accent here.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_English

              • The Al1en …
                16 October 2014 at 12:23 pm

                “What irks me is your ignorance of your own ignorance. Calling; “kiwis mostly one dimensional”, only calls in to question your depth perception.”

                Remember “it’s only a light hearted observation.”?
                Sure you’re not getting all pissy?

                “this is the only place in the world where the New Zealand English dialect in spoken correctly.”

                NZ dialect, sure, iggs on toast ’til I’m did and buried.. lol.

                “You are the one with a funny accent here.”

                And don’t you forget it.
                Still doesn’t mean kiwis shouldn’t learn how to speak vowels properly.

                • Disraeli Gladstone …
                  16 October 2014 at 7:27 pm

                  Seriously.

                  What is it with Kiwis and vowels. I’m part disgusted and part amazed at how skillful they are at making them all sound the same.

                  • marty mars …
                    16 October 2014 at 8:01 pm

                    Isn’t it just another form of elitism this proper speaking rubbish.

                    The unique blend of language that has evolved here with Te Reo Māori and english is us.

                    Surely it would be the height of boredom to have everyone speak with the same accent like the olde country – oh wait they don’t there eva.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 October 2014 at 8:21 pm

                      I don’t know about elitist, but you’re correct about the dialects in GB. A few dud vowels and upwards inflection is a fair price to pay here and it’s not without a measure of charm. What horrors a brummie national twang or Jamie Olivers mockney or that ghetto crud you sometimes hear on Jeremy Kyle.

                    • marty mars …
                      16 October 2014 at 8:33 pm

                      Maybe paternalistic is a better term.

                      I’m all for diversity and uniqueness and the accents here are that.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      16 October 2014 at 9:10 pm

                      Some fun NZ Inglush facts here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_English

                      Nice to know we kept developing post WW2 and the Aussies haven’t moved on. Mate. And that we’re reasonably close to RP. Gotta say, the further north ya go in Pomgolia, the harder it is to parlevu the lingo.

                      I reckon NZ has five distinct pakeha accents. Auckland drawl. Cliche heartland kiwi. Hutt valley RP. Canterbury drawl. Southern burr.

                    • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks …
                      17 October 2014 at 4:34 am

                      Te Reo Putake: I reckon NZ has five distinct pakeha accents. Auckland drawl. Cliche heartland kiwi. Hutt valley RP. Canterbury drawl. Southern burr.

                      Couple more: Far North has its own (Ahipara becomes “Hi! Pruh” or “Hoy prer” & an evolving phraseology) ; West Coast is diff from either Canterbury or Southland; and some BoP regions have a clipped twangy flattened hybrid.

                    • phillip ure …
                      17 October 2014 at 3:12 pm

                      @ trp..

                      ..you left out bogan-speak…

              • BM …
                16 October 2014 at 12:30 pm

                I think the issue with English people stems from their class system.

                Because we use to be a British colony that makes us the lowest possible class, hence the patronizing and paternalistic attitudes displayed by many folk recently arrived from the UK.

                I just don’t think they can’t help themselves.

                • The Al1en …
                  16 October 2014 at 1:03 pm

                  While that may be true for some, that’s a wildly inaccurate summary of my position.
                  I have no class. It’s true, ask my ex wife.

                  I will always support the rose or lion on the sports field, but I’m as much a kiwi as the next man, woman or flightless bird as the rest of yous now. I fail the Tebbit test with pride, but so what?
                  I have an expired UK passport with my residence permit in it, and won’t renew because I’ve been here a 15 stretch and sports aside, assimilated quite well.
                  I won’t spend the $500 to apply for citizenship partly because I don’t want to, partly because after 15 years of honest living I shouldn’t be expected to, but if it were free I’d get it, no worries.

                  So bottom line, I do find you a little one dimensional as a people, which probably comes from a south pacific isolation and insular looking culture, but that’s okay, I still love you.
                  I feel quite at home… Sometimes.

                  • The Al1en …
                    16 October 2014 at 1:45 pm

                    Rash generalisations being the name of the game, I have been mischievous with my own in reply to chooky shark smile’s original.
                    Even though the nat’s high polling, in particular the kiwi man vote, may be a strong indicator of one dimensional in motion I honestly don’t think kiwis are that one dimensional, though it is true I have no class, I have a union flag doormat and I won’t pay another 5 hundy to join the club for real. Next they’ll want cash in an envelope or two secret cheques.

                    Sorry to Geoff for the divert.

      • Tracey 15.1.2
        16 October 2014 at 10:41 am

        dilworth is not a state school. its a private boarding school set up for sons of single parents

        • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1.2.1
          16 October 2014 at 10:52 am

          however Mike Moore also went to state schools eg Bay of Islands College

        • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1.2.2
          16 October 2014 at 11:03 am

          …Mike Moore went to a charity private school? ( as sons of solo parents are not usually wealthy)

      • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1.3
        16 October 2014 at 10:42 am

        Mike Moore shows what Nania Mahuta could do…if given half a chance …humble origins and great achievements

        ( although I think she would remain true to the flaxroots like Norm Kirk)

        … lets give a Maori and a woman the same chances as the boys to shine

        • les 15.1.3.1
          16 October 2014 at 10:52 am

          Mike Moore lost the election and carried on as if he’d won it!

          • Te Reo Putake 15.1.3.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 10:55 am

            So a lot like David Cunliffe then?

            • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1.3.1.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 10:59 am

              …so you are blaming David Cunliffe for the Election loss?….and this without the Review?! ….many grassroots Labour members would disagree with you

              • Te Reo Putake …
                16 October 2014 at 11:17 am

                Yes, chooky. A mild crack about DC’s post election speech means I am like totes blaming him for the election loss.

            • Colonial Rawshark 15.1.3.1.1.2
              16 October 2014 at 11:16 am

              So a lot like David Cunliffe then?

              Uh what? You know better than that. You also know about the Labour Deputy Leader and also the Wellington Central based front bencher who at the time both acted like they had no responsibility whatsoever in Labour’s low polling.

              And still do not.

          • Chooky Shark Smile 15.1.3.1.2
            16 October 2014 at 10:56 am

            yeah well i am no fan of Mike Moore’s eventual right political direction ….but he is an achiever given his humble origins…and he did have the common touch

            • les 15.1.3.1.2.1
              16 October 2014 at 11:14 am

              the ‘winning touch’ is far better.Moore ‘s achievements are personal.Great politicians are few and far between and defined by positive and enduring change.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                16 October 2014 at 11:18 am

                sorry mate, your point is what? Unless you are Winston Churchill you are second rate? K…

                Having said that Mike Moore ended up a right wing enabler in NZ so I do not rate him.

            • Disraeli Gladstone 15.1.3.1.2.2
              16 October 2014 at 7:28 pm

              “but he is an achiever given his humble origins”

              So was John Key.

              The point?

          • SHG 15.1.3.1.3
            16 October 2014 at 12:53 pm

            Mike Moore took a hospital pass with his eyes wide open knowing he’d get smashed. He did his duty to the Party and the supporters by stepping up all the while knowing that the election was already lost.

            He sure didn’t sit back and backstab from the shadows while waiting for a better opportunity to advance himself. Hint fucking hint.

            • les 15.1.3.1.3.1
              16 October 2014 at 1:04 pm

              deja vu isn’t it!Lange,Palmer,Moore….everyone wants a turn!Shearer,Cunnliffe,?

            • Roztoz 15.1.3.1.3.2
              16 October 2014 at 6:49 pm

              Read your history. Moore undermined the shit out of Palmer, and then Clark after he was rolled.

              Used to go around physically leaking to the gallery.

              He was no servant of the Labour Party, in ideas, deeds or conduct.

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 15.1.3.2
          16 October 2014 at 10:58 am

          Typos can be inevitable with unfriendly keyboards or overly helpful auto-correct functions but can we try to get Nanaia’s name spelt correctly please. And btw, she retains the formal title Honourable.

          • Pawsharkial 15.1.3.2.1
            16 October 2014 at 11:27 am

            K RotLS

            Or we could just use her last name; Mahuta, as we do with male politicans. I’ve often noticed than we’re happy to talk about; Meteria, Helen, or Laila (although at least in that case you don’t have to think about the accent on the terminal e of Harre). However it’s never; Grant, John, or David (though at present in Labour that last could get confusing – eg Phil beat David & David for leadership until after the election when David took over, then after he resigned David won the leadership until after the next election when he also resigned giving David another chance…). Hone and Winston also get used a lot – perhaps because they are Māori.

            The “Honourable” isn’t really used in nonceremonial settings, unless you are also suggesting that we always refer to Key as the Rt Hon, or Douglas as the Honourable Sir Roger – which I’m not about to do (“scheming conman” being a better title for both).

            • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 15.1.3.2.1.1
              16 October 2014 at 12:04 pm

              🙂

              Re the formal title – just pointing out, that’s all. I have never seen NM use the title in general setting. Labour MPs often like to go by first names although there are exceptions and I don’t have time for those who like to stick a couple of letters or more in front of their names. Speaking of titles, someone was throwing a hissy fit over being left out haha.

            • Tracey 15.1.3.2.1.2
              16 October 2014 at 12:24 pm

              ms collins wants it for her letterhead and signature

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                16 October 2014 at 12:32 pm

                Worth lots of money in business deals internationally. In Asia particularly this kind of thing is valued.

          • Anne 15.1.3.2.2
            16 October 2014 at 6:56 pm

            Agree. It would be nice if people could take the trouble to find out what Jacinda Ardern’s correct name and spelling is too.

        • JanM 15.1.3.3
          16 October 2014 at 4:00 pm

          Humble origins – Nanaia Mahuta????
          ” She has strong links to the Māori King Movement, being the daughter of Sir Robert Mahuta, who was the adopted son of King Korokī and the elder brother of Māori Queen Te Atairangikaahu. She has an MA (Hons) in social anthropology.”
          (Taken from Wikipedia)

  16. Antony Cotton 16
    16 October 2014 at 11:37 am

    I reckon Little good Leader in the making
    Here my team top 20
    1 Little Leader Regional Development
    2 Clark Social Development and Deputy
    3 Parker Finance
    4 Robertson Education
    5 Ardern Health
    6 Mahuta Economic Development
    7 Cunliffe Commuications and Revenue
    8 W Sua Defence and Pacific Island Affairs
    9 Lees Galloway Acc and Labour
    10 Twyford Housing and Boardcasting
    11 Woods Christchurch Commerce
    12 Hipkins Senior Whip
    13 Sepuloni Junior Whip
    14 O Connor Agriculture
    15 Davis Moari Affairs
    16 Goff Trade
    17 Nash Conservation
    18 Wall Environment
    19 Rino Customs and fisheries
    20 Faafoi Broadcasting
    Omitted
    Moroney
    Curran
    Cosgrove
    King
    Mallard but Assisant Speaker
    Salesa
    Dyson
    Henare
    Adrian Te Tai
    Poto Williams
    Meka
    Shearer

    [lprent: I’m sure that fantasy football caucus positions must be a real buzz for those making them up. However I consider that they really don’t add anything to posts and in fact seem to promote some really turgid and boring discussions when they do at all. Put them in OpenMike or don’t leave them. ]

    • Colonial Rawshark 16.1
      16 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

      You’re going to have David Clark on Social Development but Louisa Wall unranked?????

      And Ardern on Health??? Talk about throwing good people to the friggin wolves.

      Poto Williams and Meka down the bottom and unranked??? Anyhows I appreciate your thoughts but I would have gone another way.

      • Roztoz 16.1.1
        16 October 2014 at 6:52 pm

        CV, what has Louisa Wall ever done? And please don’t mention the bill drafted by Charles Chauvel and put through by a coalition *in spite* of her destructive working style.

        • adam 16.1.1.1
          16 October 2014 at 9:11 pm

          Lousia was a better rugby player than she’s been a politician.

          Ms invisible.

          • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2014 at 9:17 pm

            Interesting your perceptions. Both wrong of course, but interesting nonetheless that you’ve seen fit to come out with them.

            And please don’t mention the bill drafted by Charles Chauvel and put through by a coalition *in spite* of her destructive working style.

            Ahhh, an outright lie from you about Louisa Wall. I guess you’re anxious about how she managed to co-ordinate with multiple National Party MPs who had originally resisted voting for the Bill. I wonder what prompted that from the right wing spin machine.

        • Jim Nald 16.1.1.2
          17 October 2014 at 12:01 am

          Hi Roztoz

          You are wrong and, with adam, you are trying to undermine Louisa.

          Louisa works collaboratively across the House. She deals with issues with integrity and is a very experienced policymaker. The facts speak for themselves. Far from being destructive, she worked to get support with the marriage equality bill passing 77 – 44.

          Many from all round the House participated in giving brilliant speeches, with several needing to share the specific time allocated. Grant was among them and he was in the front seat with making a speech and being in the limelight. Something else can be said about the reality but let’s leave that to another time until someone wants to make a further issue about things by putting forward false statements.

          For the record, Louisa’s partner, Prue, helped draft her private member’s bill and that was acknowledged during the third reading:

          “… to my darling Prue, thank you for your work and for sharing this journey with me.”

          http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/debates/debates/50HansD_20130417_00000020/marriage-definition-of-marriage-amendment-bill-%E2%80%94-third

          Louisa has been re-elected in the Bible Belt of South Auckland and, regardless of that bill, the support for her has been overwhelmingly due to her effort for what she has been doing for people in her electorate.

    • Lanthanide 16.2
      16 October 2014 at 12:56 pm

      Funny throwing King and Shearer out, too.

  17. Orthodoxia 17
    16 October 2014 at 12:53 pm

    My vote is going to Little then Mahuta. I do believe that the NZF increase of vote came at the expense of Labour. If Labour can get the leader and the policies to take back from NZF, it takes a strong step towards 2017. Little for me is most likely to do that of the 4 on offer.

    • swordfish 17.1
      16 October 2014 at 1:20 pm

      Yep, all the evidence is pointing toward a Labour-to-NZF swing. In the 90s, NZ First was the recipient of swings away from both major Parties, but particularly from the Nats. These days, much more from Labour.

      Not so sure, though, that forcing Winnie down below 5% will mean Labour “takes a strong step towards 2017”.

  18. finbar 18
    16 October 2014 at 1:02 pm

    There is only one voted elected,and that is Nania,who is challeging this election.The other winner voted elected who has withdrawn is Cunliffe.Who are these other imposters.

    • wekarawshark 18.1
      16 October 2014 at 1:12 pm

      Have you heard of MMP?

    • SHG 18.2
      16 October 2014 at 1:17 pm

      I believed the technical term is “failed electoral candidates”.

      According to Martyn Bradbury.

    • Tracey 18.3
      16 October 2014 at 1:28 pm

      ffs

      john key was parachuted into hellensville and the nat leadership. never proved a fricken thing to get them. its a red herring this win a seat nonsense.

    • alwyn 18.4
      16 October 2014 at 7:56 pm

      You are clearly living in an alternate universe to the one I inhabit.
      I could have sworn that the candidate elected in my own electorate of Wellington Central was named Grant Robertson and that he was one of those running for leader.
      Who won the seat in your version of the world?

      • Colonial Rawshark 18.4.1
        16 October 2014 at 10:09 pm

        Haha good point. Robertson got a very strong electorate majority. Crashed on the party vote tho.

  19. Sable 19
    16 October 2014 at 4:19 pm

    Sorry but when did Labour last do diddly for the average Kiwi? This is a good part of the reason they failed so spectacularly this election (although I will admit the sleazy biased MSM did not help).

    If Labour wants workers votes try being the Labour party older people like myself remember not the slick corporate animal they became after the Lange government slithered into office.

  20. finbar 20
    16 October 2014 at 4:41 pm

    Ever care about a elected representative they call that democracy.Ever heard about who shall we riddicule for our control.Ever cared about who voted for us.Ever heard about who we think should be our favour.Ever heard about,have they ever won a seat.

  21. finbar 21
    16 October 2014 at 4:44 pm

    Without shame,i am a Cunliffe,person.Not saying that i beleive in his drive,but saying,with this present bunch of male wanabees he shined,and they lost their seats,and they all joined the queue to blaim him.

  22. finbar 22
    16 October 2014 at 4:55 pm

    Aint that a question to be understood,not for your selfish im ok,it has to be understood for the question do i care aside my need.And i think that why Labour are sitting on the other side,lost their gismo of what direction.Is it the game of usury and let it run,or is it listen.

    .
    .

  23. finbar 23
    16 October 2014 at 9:38 pm

    Whatched the telly last night,about the lay off!s at the HEINZ sweat shop factor in the HAWKES BAY.All promisess about control and no lay off!s shall we do.They did.Yet the face outside the Union cat and the towns Mayor,that grab the camera was that im Labours smiling Nash.Right wing is Nash in his Labour,or not understanding,but he got the camera and the camera liked it.Always find it ruthless for so called Socialist polliticians, to say not this time.And his time, along with Ardern,will sadly be after Keys fourth rule,reason,ask the so called brains of Labours caucus,for no matter all the sudden new members,who after the last seemed not to vote,have no say.So its ok,to get to the hole in the wall,and pull out three thousand a week,and my time will come.

    Labour have lost its gizmo.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.