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Impossible to refuse an inquiry

Written By: - Date published: 12:55 pm, March 24th, 2017 - 67 comments
Categories: accountability, afghanistan, bill english, war - Tags: , ,

Bill English should stop being evasive and just get on with an inquiry into the fiasco outlined in Hit and Run.

Wayne Mapp has admitted it: Former Defence Minister Wayne Mapp admits civilian casualty in Afghanistan raid.

This morning David Fisher in The Herald published further corroborating evidence: Exclusive interview: NZSAS says civilians were killed in fatal raid, including two by Kiwi sniper fire.

Then came the news that NZ lawyers will be representing the villagers: NZ lawyers demand independent inquiry over deadly SAS raid in Afghanistan.

Editorial after editorial has called for an inquiry.

The longer English delays the worse he looks.


(You can sign the petition calling for an inquiry here.)

67 comments on “Impossible to refuse an inquiry ”

  1. reason 1

    This exposure of this “raid” made me think of the killing of civilians as described from around 3mins 30 seconds in this this documentary “dirty wars.

    And the political denials …. “no need for an inquiry” 17mins-19mins

    Go foward to around the 32 min mark to see the savage meat grinder of woman and children who we have followed into war ….

    If the images and testimony of the victims ….. woman and children….. does not make you feel sadness and anger … or bring a tear to your eye

    Then you are either Paula Bennett …. or some other person with no heart.

    ” If children are terrorists then we are all terrorists ”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN4Sn5u_pK0

  2. Cinny 2

    Was talking to another military exwife today about ‘Hit and Run’.

    Found it interesting that we were both told stories about different events, in confidence, almost like a therapist, such are the defence force wives/partners.
    We didn’t compare stories, there’s a bit of a code with some things.
    However we both remarked that some of the most heinous stories occurred after they had been away ‘at war’. Good soldiers doing what they were told.

  3. Keith 3

    Bills just waiting for the polling and focus grouping but its taking ages. Hurry up Dave please. National are USELESS when it comes to thinking on their own.

    Far too late for Paula though, she’s “really really” committed to the military’s original version. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/they-have-great-integrity-bennett-backs-defence-force-after-claims-civilian-deaths-in-sas-operation

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      I’d say that he’s waiting for the National Party PR department to come up with the parameters of the inquiry so it sounds good (National Doing Something) but will be so constrained the it won’t find anything as well.

  4. Keith 4

    A strangely honest summation of the military from a quote from the movie ’71 regarding the army;

    “Posh cunts telling thick cunts to kill poor cunts. That’s the army for you. It’s all a lie”.

  5. Signed the petition.

    Done.

  6. English seems to have zero political nous – sorta like brash without the warmth.

    • greywarshark 6.1

      Brash was warmed by his enthusiasm for his economics. Just do what I say and all will be well.

      English has got used to getting up in the morning and putting on a clean shirt and tie.
      No warmth at all for the people’s every day problems. Except for having children himself and condemning others who persist in doing the human thing but then being against abortion, and any other progressive move to change laws that are two restrictive. People should stop and seek permission for sex first. That will be on next year’s agenda. (He has six. Six may seem large, but English himself was the 10th child in a family of 12.)http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/87412259/six-things-you-might-not-know-about-bill-english-our-next-pm

  7. I see Toby Manhire in the NZ Herald has said there needs to be an inquiry held, and sets out some very good reasons why.

    Why is there so much reticence and hiding in the shadows over what should be normal standard procedure in these sorts of issues in this country?

    • dukeofurl 7.1

      “Why is there so much reticence and hiding in the shadows”

      Its the 6 month count down to the election. The only side shows will be the ones organised and planned by the government , thank you very much.

      • AmaKiwi 7.1.1

        I interpret English’s “not going to be rushed” comment as admission he has joined the cover-up.

        Thanks for clarifying that, Bill.

        I’m glad some NZDF officer is not going to have to fall on his sword to cover up for Key & Co.

  8. taxicab 8

    The story linked to above by David Fisher has been almost completely removed from the Herald site online. I wonder how that phone call from the ninth floor went ! It can only be accessed by going to the archives section yet the beat up by Hosking in “Mikes minute” is easily available . The cover up continues !!

    • The mere fact this is happening indicates skulduggery and dishonesty – and at the very least – demonstrates the sort of characters of those in positions of high office.

      It speaks louder than any statement by any official thus far.

      We are not children to be treated as if we cannot handle the truth. We demand truth and open governance. That’s what we pay them for.

  9. Muttonbird 9

    I don’t often link to this creep’s website and I apologise for doing so here.

    Government pollster David Farrar continues the narrative that war is war and people die all the time. This is meant as a defence of the National government and NZDF coverup of what happened on the SAS revenge mission in Afghanistan.

    I posted a couple of days ago about this type of shark-jumping by Farrar, Hooten, Smith and co and here we have Farrar pretending to be concerned about casualties in war torn countries. The real agenda is to compare the NZ SAS with Nigerian terrorists groups in the hope muddle New Zealand might find assassination a couple of Afghani farmers in the middle of the night is no big deal.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/03/not_just_london.html

  10. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 10

    God help me, for my sins I watched ‘Mike’s Minute’ on the Hager book. I might add, the first and last time I shall be a masochist!

    As expected, Hoskings completely misses the point. Sure, mistakes happen in war and innocent people are killed.

    But normally, the army doesn’t (or shouldn’t) act in revenge. And if it makes a mistake, it should own it and, if possible, make compensation.

    This raid, an act of utu, was ordered from the very top authority in our country, Key, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if the coverup didn’t originate from the Prime Ministers office as well!

    We need a Royal enquiry to determine who is responsible, not to blame the soldiers on the ground, but to nail the ears to the wall of the pricks who ordered the raid and ordered the coverup!

    • lprent 10.1

      Personally I doubt the utu side. It isn’t something that I’d expect out of any of the SAS I have met.

      I am more worried that the intelligence was so crap and our soldiers acted on it. It makes me wonder where the intel came from and who decided to act on it.

      But mostly I can’t understand why in the hell there was a coverup.

      • Anne 10.1.1

        On Checkpoint just now a statement was read out from the parents of Tim O’Donnell – the soldier killed 3 weeks before the raid. My sympathy for their plight has flown out the window.

        They have accused Nicky Hager of making money out of their son’s death… of telling lies (or words to that effect) … and noted no-one wrote a book about their son death. On the one hand they’re complaining about their son’s name being brought back into the public arena then they complain about the fact their is no book about him.

        Hager never impugned their son’s name. He certainly didn’t tell lies. And “making money” was never the motivation for the book.

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201837921

        • Anne 10.1.1.1

          damm it – should be there is no book…

        • Muttonbird 10.1.1.2

          On the one hand they’re complaining about their son’s name being brought back into the public arena then they complain about the fact there is no book about him.

          That’s ironic.

          Sad for the boy’s death but the parents are making a right hash of his memory. Perhaps they too might like to know the truth about the raid and whether Afghani civilians died and legitimate insurgents escaped after the death of their son?

          Or, if they are National voters they might like to bury it all as Hosking and Farrar seek to do in order to protect the government.

          • Anne 10.1.1.2.1

            if they are National voters they might like to bury it all as Hosking and Farrar seek to do in order to protect the government.

            If you listen to the link I think you will agree this theory is likely closest to the truth.

        • Carolyn_nth 10.1.1.3

          I don’t agree with the parents on Hager and Stephenson’s motivation for writing the book.

          However, my experience of parents who have lost a child before their time, is that the grief can be deep, and a main focus of their lives for years afterwards. I guess they may have consoled themselves that Tim O’Donnell had died fighting for his country, or some such thing.

          However, I would also have thought, maybe they could understand the grief of the Afghan villagers, who also lost people way too young.

          War is a clusterfuck, lives get damaged all around, and it should not be entered into without very good reasons. Buck stops with those who ordered the military involvement in Afghanistan initially, and with the people who made the decisions about the raid on the Afghan villages in 2010.

          • Anne 10.1.1.3.1

            …maybe they could understand the grief of the Afghan villagers, who also lost people way too young.

            Reason for my sympathy “flying out the window”. Apparently the grief of the Afghan villagers don’t count for anything.

        • McFlock 10.1.1.4

          While I might disagree with them, I still have sympathy for them and their loss.

          Maybe their grief isn’t going in what we think is the right direction, that might change over time. The fact is that we can never view the events in this book from the perspective that they do.

          I think you’re being a bit harsh on them.

          • ropata 10.1.1.4.1

            I don’t think killing a bunch of Afghani civilians honoured his memory…

            • McFlock 10.1.1.4.1.1

              Nor do I.

              But then neither I nor his family actually said/wrote that, did we?

              • ropata

                Sorry for the non sequitur, I was just making an observation.

                • McFlock

                  Frankly, unless demonstrated otherwise the killing of those civilians could well just have been a fuck-up.

                  Any dishonour looks to me to come from the establishment who said the deaths never happened and, with a few exceptions, seem to be stonewalling to this day.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 10.1.1.5

          Callous Anne. Truly nasty. As the victim here, their story is as valid as Hagers. For you to throw all sympathy out the window because they’ve attacked hager shows how truly heartless you are. It’s possible to have compassion for a persons plight while not agreeing with their opinions. But that would require thinking rationally. Always a big ask with you.

          • red-blooded 10.1.1.5.1

            What a nasty (and overly personal) comment. (A bit ironic, considering that you’re accusing Anne of being nasty.)

            A few observations:
            1) Anne did say that she’d had sympathy for the parents’ plight,
            2) but she went on to say that their comments had altered her feelings.
            3) I think we can all agree that these parents have suffered a huge loss, but
            4) they are not “the victim(s)” – they are AMONGST the victims, who include the Afghani people killed and injured and their families and friends.

            Presumably the reason why nobody wrote a book about their son’s death is that there was no cover-up that needed to be explored. It was also extensively covered by the media at the time and there was a full-honours funeral, with a 21 gun salute and the PM and various others speaking in tribute.
            http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4012524/Lieutenant-Timothy-O-Donnell-laid-to-rest

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury 10.1.1.5.1.1

              Your observations aren’t valid 1-3. I’ve pointed out what is wrong with Anne’s statement and approach in my previous comment.

              4, you are right, they’re amongst, not the sole victims.

              I personally think writing a book about their son is unnecessary, but it doesn’t change my compassion for their loss one bit. Losing a son following orders, fighting for other people’s freedom must be awful. I can’t begin to comprehend what they went through.

          • Anne 10.1.1.5.2

            @ Tuppenny Shrew 10.1.1.5

            Your response shows you are an irrational, stupid right winger who is lacking in normal cognition.I probably have more compassion in my little toe than you have in your whole body. If you can’t handle the truth then be gone with you.

          • reason 10.1.1.5.3

            …. And yet it is you who appears callous and nasty Tuppence Shrewsbury
            ….

            The family is being manipulated …..their grief is being used in the cover-up

            Fatima the three year old girl and her family are the most innocent victims … they did not chose to o to war.

            Here’s another example of a needless death being used in the same cynical way by the media/politicians/military

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laNQ5J2caOY

            The truth is the enemy of war

      • Ross 10.1.2

        But mostly I can’t understand why in the hell there was a coverup.

        People will cover up all manner of things. Like superior court judge Marcus Einfeld who got a speeding ticket and ended up serving time for perjury instead of paying the $77 fine. Maybe he thought no one would be any the wiser if he lied. His story was incredible.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Einfeld

        An English MP did something similar. It cost him his job and he and his wife were both imprisoned.

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2291561/Ex-minister-Chris-Huhne-wife-Vicky-Pryce-jailed-months-speeding-points-swap-scandal.html

  11. mosa 11

    All signed up.

    And unlike the controversy over water let’s have an inquiry BEFORE the general election.

    Watch them squirm out of having anything that might give us some truth, answers and resignations.

    • mary_a 11.1

      @ mosa (11) … the cesspit dwellers in government you refer to will have to find someone of the same cheap, coarse values as themselves (a crooked National supporter obviously) to conduct the enquiry, in the hope he/she will find there is nothing to answer and let it go at that! You know, nothing to see here, move on! That’s the type of enquiry they will want.

      Given the seriousness of this issue, the only enquiry should be one held outside NZ, by an independent international judge(s), with no affiliation to the nations involved in the present conflicts. Only then can we be assured of a fair outcome.

  12. Ross 12

    Various groups say the civilian deaths were accidental. The thing is, when someone is involved in a car accident, they usually check that the other driver or pedestrian is OK and call an ambulance if needed. How can you accidentally injure 15 people and not give them any medical attention?

  13. David C 13

    One thing that has struck me with Hagars new book..

    For all Hagar’s wealth, you would think he could splash out on a shirt that fits, FFS.

    [lprent: So if you can provide evidence of this vast wealth, then I won’t ban you for 4 weeks for giving an unsubstantiated comment. ]

    • mickysavage 13.1

      Yep his shirt is way more important than the lives of six Afghanis who were killed by the sound of it FFS

      • David C 13.1.1

        MS.
        His story is so weak a decent fitting shirt would distract from it?
        Thanks for the clarification.

        • WILD KATIPO 13.1.1.1

          I suppose you would comment on the sometimes ill fitting shirts of some of the Native Americans massacred by Chivington as well ,….

          “The Sand Creek Massacre” Modified Version of Award … – YouTube
          Video for chivington massacre you tube▶ 6:37

          And the point being, I believe we have far more integrity and humanity in our Defense Force than Chivington , – yet even the USA’s system of inquiry had the courage to hold an inquiry – and lay the blame appropriately .

          And unless we want to be no better than Chivington , we need to have the gumption and impartiality to willingly conduct that inquiry – especially as our own SAS have had the courage to speak out about this alleged series of war crimes.

    • Whispering Kate 13.2

      People like Nicky Hager are too involved in what they do, too cerebral to bother about the semantics of wearing a shirt that fits. How pathetic is a comment like that – having a shirt that doesn’t fit. If we had half the intellect that man possesses we would be eternally grateful. I can’t remember hearing such an idiotic comment like that before.

      Just thank god we have people who disclose disgusting stuff which is hidden from sight, no matter how awful war is there is no excuse for leaving wounded unattended and innocent civilians killed. It doesn’t help our career soldiers to cope with later civilian life if they are put in situations which they know will be repugnant to them. Our Governments do bugger all for them when they are rehabbed home so they shouldn’t have to be burdened with incidents that will plague them for the rest of their lives.

      I have a late uncle who volunteered and was in the First Echelon that went to the Middle East in WW2 as a sapper for four years- he maintained for the rest of his life that the returned men were never really cared for, had to apply for their own service medals on return which he told them to stick where the sun doesn’t shine and he never ever went to an ANZAC Day service. The higher uppers don’t give a shit for our serving men so I do not blame those who did whistle blow to Hager and his co-author. Good on them.

      • David C 13.2.1

        WK.

        You have confused me.

        Hagar who has such a huge intellect purchased an ill fitting shirt on purpose?

        Does it take more effort to buy a shirt the right size?

        I actually think he is trying to send some message with the clothes that look like rags, but I am not sure what that message is.

        Kinda funny tho from a bloke with a massive $$ trust fund from his Daddy who tailored shirts for a living.

        • WILD KATIPO 13.2.1.1

          Not really confusing at all… he dresses in what hes comfortable in , not the latest fashion statement,… now ,… back to the issue at hand , – which is the the possibility of our defense force covering up war crimes and a govt that is stonewalling conducting an inquiry against the public interests…

          For the last …. 6 years?

        • McFlock 13.2.1.2

          goddamn it, he dresses like shit and now we suddenly find out he’s a damned richer! I ain’t ever reading anything he writes again!

          Fuck, you pricks are desperate.

        • ankerawshark 13.2.1.3

          david C your comments about Hager’s shirt are facile

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.4

          David C
          Is that bleach you are dripping to vanish the signs of bad behaviour before our eyes, or is it to throw in our eyes so we can’t see. Your remarks are rather acidic. Trying to gather thin threads of spurious information together for some negative effect smacks of (whispered) “a conspiracy theory”.

          • greywarshark 13.2.1.4.1

            I don’t like that remark from greywarshark (me). I take back that bit about bleach. Try vinegar instead, it is more environmentally friendly and not so mentally fiendly! (Doing my own moderating here. The perfect commenter I think?)

        • Whispering Kate 13.2.1.5

          I happen to know a wee bit about Nicky Hager and believe me (Daddy’s trust or not and do you have proof of this) the last thing on his mind is shopping for clothing. I know many people like this, why is it a crime to wear modest clothing and not want to be a peacock – how petty and nonsensical you are to even notice such things. Nit picker is what we call idiots like you. At least he keeps himself trim and not fat like other people I see in public office who ponce about in designer gear and look disgusting in it with bulges everywhere.

          • Carolyn_nth 13.2.1.5.1

            Actually, rather disheveled, and down-market clothing goes with the “investigative journalist” type. Hence the jokes on Twitter when Matt Nippert dons a suit. I’ve met him and he ain’t no fashion dresser.

            Such people tend to blend in somewhat with non-establishment types, and thus to be open to meeting all kinds of people.

    • AB 13.3

      Are you Mike Hosking?
      There’s a particular combination of triviality and contempt in that comment that sounds just like that wee narcissist who opines absurdly to the public every day

    • mac1 13.4

      FFS is right. Why FFS do you raise such a footling objection?

      You can’t be linking a book to Hager’s dress sense, can you? That does not make any sense, at all. Or are you judging a book by its cover?

      FFS indeed.

  14. BM 14

    Nicky Hager looks like one of the rodent characters from Grim.

    [lprent: And I think that you look like a troll… Your point is? ]

  15. One Two 15

    Impossible to refuse?

    It was refused for child sexual abuse…

    Nothing is out of the question, and NZ has bigger local issues which need sunlight

    A whitewash is all it would be

    • lprent 16.1

      Excellent link
      soldiers.
      It depends on what is wanted. The only real issue is if the intent is to expose an issue to be fixed, or if the intent is to prosecute junior officers and

  16. ropata 17

    I see the RWNJs are trying out a few different diversions, mostly involving shooting the messenger. What a filthy game RW politics is

  17. Thinkerr 18

    1. The longer you can delay the start of an inquiry, the longer you can delay the report back. Maybe until October or later. IMHO

    2. I haven’t read much about Hager’s latest book, and I certainly don’t condone revenge killing of innocent civilians, but I do think we who are passing judgement and making criticism are doing so from the comfort of our homes. I think the battlefield must be a place that is foreign to the likes of me, and while I want to know what happened and if there was malpractice, I’m not going to say “They should’ve” or “shouldn’t’ve”, because I simply don’t understand their world.

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