"Is Taumata Arowai involved in the Three Waters reform programme plan to transfer water assets from councils to four new entities?
No. Taumata Arowai is not involved in the creation of new regional water entities or the shift of functions from local authorities to them. Our role is to regulate rather than to determine any future changes to the water supply delivery system. We’ll work with drinking water suppliers in whichever form they take."
Incisive question … you're flushing out the self-indulgent Romanticism of the well-to-do, intellectually-superficial, prestige-enhancing Pakeha Woke … with a simple question on fundamental practicalities.
You’re one of a distinct minority here firmly grounded in reality & clear-cut principles of right & wrong … as opposed to ostentatious displays of virtue-signaling & bombastic moral posturing.
When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary.
PS Was the use of the word ‘flushing’ inadvertent humour?
Your entire post was a massive pose. You sir, are a massive poser.
Three waters will have monitoring facilities so we stop poisoning locals. It will have financing so we can replace pipes also poisoning locals. It will have coordination so boundary lines don't become places of inaction by two governing entities.
It will have oversight so prissy little capitalist whiners who think the commons are theirs can't get their grubby shit shaped thieving paws on it. That's really upset the apple cart. The thieves are claiming they're being stolen from – right? A pack of opportunistic thieving Trumpesque white whingers terrified of everything non-white.
The gist of anti-3 waters is racist, pathetic, ill informed, nasty and ultimately stupid. They parrot each other over talk back and rarely have an original thought. Their plan – be against it!
Fucking old people – holding everything back terrified of their own irrelevancy.
Yes my biggest 'doh, what was I thinking moment' is to remember while at Auckland Uni marching with people up Queen Street in opposition to Mayor Robbie's light rail.
I don't regret my pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro women anti Vietnam marches or cheering on Maori groups who have marched in support of their rights to fairdealing in land issues etc.
Suffice to say over the years I have got more radical than less. Growing old does enable some of us to reflect and to want a better world in place of a non working BAU.
Plain naivety is my biggest regret RL. It enabled a handful of dishonest and deceitful individuals to use me to the hilt and then leave me to carry the can for their own conduct. I learnt a huge amount about human behaviour but oh dear… at what a cost. You can't undo the past.
I am an oldie. Bring on Three Waters is all I can say.
The resistance in my set of friends is coming from a younger set 40-60.
It comes complete with a built in set of anti PM, anti women and anti Murray views. I am sure they are waiting on the steak knives before advertising these as a useful addition.
I worked in the water supply industry for 8 years. From the outset I have been firmly in favour of the operational amalgamation but against the political privatisation.
Operationally water supply is both capital intensive and cash flow poor; which means the existing multiple agencies struggle to attract necessary funds to upgrade and maintain, but also to retain the necessary engineering and tech skilled people in the industry. This results in stupid duplication of effort, systems and an asset base that is a patchwork of different technologies all at different stages of their lifecycles – which in turn gobbles up scarce cash. Amalgamation leverages scale to sustain more consistent funding, better planning and more effective use of people. In this respect 3W would be a good thing.
At the same time the ethno-nationalist interpretation of the ToW that elevates the iwi elites to a superior class of citizenship has demanded that all water in New Zealand belongs to them. Unfortunately this govt has bundled the two in a manner that is both deceitful and manipulative.
Deceitful because they are underplaying the manner in which 3W effectively passes control of the asset that belongs to everyone, into the hands on an unelected, race-based elite. There is no electoral mandate for this.
Manipulative because while it tells us that only Maori have the moral capacity to manage water supply, everyone else being racist if they object to this.
Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure.
If there is no right to privatise why do you infer that the proposal includes this. Scaremongering really.
As several posters have said over the past month Maori with their view of water as a taonga are probably the least likely to privatise. Or are you referring to the other holding agency?
Reading your post again it has much exaggeration. BAU is not working. Let us face that fair and square.
To keep doing this the way we always will ensure that we have a BAU non workable situation for the years ahead.
How many times does this have to be illustrated before people believe we need to do something. A progressive democracy should be just that not mired in anti type BAU.
The system needs a massive kick start, a new view and what ahead cannot be worse than what we have had, with unfishable and un swimmable rivers, lakes and streams, sewage discharges, high levels of farm chemicals, over use in terms of extractive water rights.
I am picking it will be better with the new set-up, Probably way better than the most conservative pro pundits are picking.
As several posters have said over the past month Maori with their view of water as a taonga are probably the least likely to privatise.
This sentence embeds an assumption of moral superiority. The assumption that no-one else values water and wilderness. The assumption that somehow Maori are so unique that in New Zealand water can only be effectively managed by one minority ethnicity. Makes you wonder how the rest of the world gets on without such special people in charge.
The assumption also that 3W will give control of these vital assets to an elite group of unelected, unaccountable individuals. Which for all intents and purposes looks like a privatisation to most people.
Just replace the word Maori with say – Indian – in this debate and the absurdity of it all would be immediately apparent.
I do not want to unpick all your assumptions. It is simply red-neck and displaying an ignorance of NZ history to say you can replace Indian, Chinese French or whatever with Maori and this demonstrates racial overtones. Simply rubbish and utterly forgetting that NZ Crown (through HMQ) signed a Treaty with Maori back in 1840.
If you can demonstrate that this Treaty was also signed with Indian people or Chinese or French or, or or, then you might have a point. But it was not. Indian, French, etc come in the Tauiwi or Ngati Wikitoria ie with the Crown partner.
You are writing these on a basis that Maori have no right to have a Treaty that works for them
Let me unpick the steps
1 co governance is first and foremost a recognition and way forward to enable to recognise the rights of the other party to the Treaty of Waitangi. The Crown (HMK) is the other partner.
2 So having established the genesis is with an 1840 treaty we now look at the aspiration, beliefs of the other partner. In this we are fortunate in that the other party also shares the aims and concerns that lead to the concern about water in the first place. In the Maori belief system water is a taonga.
The Crown could have found that the other party was an extractive, water polluting, river damming people with that as a culture.
So first and foremost it is recognition of Treaty rights that this is a way forward to fix an untenable BAU.
Many who understand that two step idea
1 inherent rights
plus
2 untenable current situation needing fixing
have few concerns. After all it cannot be worse than what is happening now and we are lucky that our treaty partner's views about water, that they have held steadfastly are now acceptable to a wider group. This wider group can see that a more measured and less extractive approach may make it better for all.
For extra reading you should read about the the NZ Maori Council cases that stopped the sale of NZ land back in neo lib days,. They mounted a treaty focused argument that was upheld by the Courts. Thankfully we are not the slow learners we were in those days.
Your confidence in the largely untested Maori entity as stewards is all very well, but the record of stewardship in industries like fishing is not encouraging – Maori interests proving just as susceptible to the moral hazards of practices like slave fishing as the other players.
I have no confidence in the proposed structure of the 3 waters reform, which I would describe as lacking the appropriate constitutional safeguards. Labour want to gamble on an affirmative action with a resource that concerns everyone. Antidemocratic as well as profoundly unwise.
… although, if I remember my Critical Race Theory accurately, critiquing anything involving Corporate Iwi makes you a Cis-heteronormative transphoblic White Supremacist Neo-Nazi bigot suffering from White Fragility & White Man’s tears.
Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law. I think we can rely on that Great Totara, Shanreagh, to know what’s best for us all.
I think you are having us on SW with the word salad much as I used to back in the 1970s/80s when we used to have arguments in our Women's Studies classes and introduce ourselves with as many phrases as we could.
I keep part of mine to sing out to others of the same ilk……
"Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law."
Except when they disagree, then apparently they are the sad self-hating products of colonialism. Independent thinking be damned.
Well, it's a nice argument Robert, but the finger has been pointed at a few issues prior to Eurocolonization, including moa extinction, and Central Otago & MacKenzie deforestation. The main reason the Maori footprint was light was the same as it was for Pakeha for quite some time – smaller populations create less mischief.
Nor have contemporary Maori eschewed the problematic industries responsible for polluting already stressed waterways – which tends to suggest that their environmental piety is no purer than the European colonist's religious piety – poor or no protection.
There are always some shortsighted ones, Robert. In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. In the balkanized nuclear groups of contemporary society and business however, the delay between the stimuli and the response has become too attenuated.
So we get nitrification, and eutrophication and anoxic rivers and ponds, and Government responds late, if at all. The body of society is damaged, like a sufferer of Hansen's disease, by the lack of real time responses. And on it stumbles, like the angel of the future, backwards into the great unknown.
‘Angelus Novus’ shows an angel looking as though he is about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing in from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such a violence that the angel can no longer close them. The storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. Walter Benjamin
"In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. "
It's been reported and reinforced so many times that Maori have a special relationship with nature and water. By inference, It's something that Europeans apparently don't have if you believe the talking heads in the media and Maori spin doctors.
Yet Europeans have manipulated water to serve us. They have made water drinkable and done other wonders. Things that are now taken for granted. Of course these manipulations of nature have sometimes created disasters and unforeseen problems. And it's these problems everyone seems to concentrate on ( and rightly so), and not the progress our nation has made.
X Socialist was quite wrong to bring Christianity into it. I am hoping he is not going to bring other beliefs up & say naughty things about Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.
Both of these make very little use of water apart from water being used by domestic animals who are not in a factory farm situation.
Least-ways I have not heard of factory farming Easter bunnies and with the reindeer all having names it more or less rules them out of being factory farmed.
Let's not. You need to read up on our history. Christianity was, and became, a very important part of European and Maori life. Water is part of Christian ritual. You also need to understand imbuing water with wairua was standard practice in traditional Maori society. Sometimes even Oriori was spoken to the water. The water quantity was not important – either a drop or a whole river.
We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water. And we can tell others about our special relationship with water.
Of course I know about the relationship and the history, but pardon me as I obviously read sarcasm into the statement you wrote above, ie you were criticising a relationship not commending it.
I think the problem is Robert that if Maori claim they have a special relationship with water, then surely that opens it up to others to make the same claim?
I don't know what this means "a special relationship with water". Water is essential to every human being on the plannet. The "special relatiionship" claim is just articulating some belief system that some Maori and some Pakeha have chosen to believe. It is likely a spiritual belief, but as such cannot be proved or tested.
I just want the best, most knowledgable people to manage our water. And I want the ability to vote them out if they don't serve the people of NZ well.
A lot of people likely won't read this link because it is from the Platform. That's o.k. but you are missing out a really good critique of whats going on.
A lot of people likely won’t read this link because it is from the Platform. That’s o.k. but you are missing out a really good critique of whats going on.
Nope, they are avoiding reading rubbish from a Platform plonker. It is ironic that quite a few anti-Murrays here gravitate to that pool of populist propaganda fountain of wisdom.
Do "Maori" claim to have a special relationship with water, Anker? Or do their words indicate that they have a more vital and lively understanding of water than most pakeha do?
I reckon there's some truth in the proposal that Tangata Whenua still connect with water in a way that pakeha have forgotten.
Well I have read it but nothing new in it. in fact for me it adds nothing. It is not a good critique of the proposal, nor the select cttee findings and neither does it examine good ideas/bad ideas, how things might or might not work…etc etc. So not even good commentary.
You'd be better to read some of the commentators on here plus read the select report itself.
I'll just note that of the five political parties in the NZ parliament, Te Pāti Māori has the most progressive policy on water by far. Better than the Greens. They say we should be able to drink water from our rivers, streams and lakes. I believe that they are ahead of the other parties because of cultural reasons ie Māori have a relationship with water and nature that transcends human use and includes respect for life for its own sake. There are lots of non-Māori that have this too, but it's not embedded in Pākehā values.
If we treat water as an inert substance separate from its environment and the rest of liver, there for human use, then we end up in the situation we are in now, with rivers so polluted that kids can't swim in them let alone drink from them. And we end up with infrastructure that is failing, because when we treat nature like shit we inevitably end up treating humans like shit too, who are after all, part of nature too.
And guess what? Science supports TPM’s position. For ecosystems to function, we need water quality in rivers to be higher than drinkable for humans. If we want the live that lives in rivers to thrive, it needs to be a higher standard. There’s no opposition between science and mātauranga Māori, except in how some humans conceptualise them.
So yeah, there are differences in the relationship with water.
here's what you get from Pākehā thinking (and this is one of my concerns about 3 Waters). If the drinking water at the tap in cities and towns is causing ill health in humans, then you add chemicals to the water to treat that. You don't look at the source water and return it to its natural state. Once you have water treated at the tap end, you don't need to bother with things like the cows shitting in rivers.
Likewise, when thousands of people got sick from the animal pollution into the Hastings water supply, the response wasn't to change land management, it was to make sure that every rural and small town water supply was chlorinated.
I'm not saying don't chlorinate. I'm pointing to the mindset that allows us to turn water from something vital into a thing.
I've swum in many Otago and Southland rivers and lakes, and I can feel the vitality. It comes from connection with place. It won't prevent giardia or e coli, but loss of vitality will collapse whole ecosystems and the climate.
If the drinking water at the tap in cities and towns is causing ill health in humans, then you add chemicals to the water to treat that.
All post-agricultural human settlement had to deal with the problem of contaminated surface water. A few hundreds of people in local area might manage with some observational ideas that imposed separation of potable and waste water. But grow to the size of a town or city and such simple schemes become totally impractical and demand science based solutions.
Indeed the advent of modern water supply treatment, both potable and waste, in the 1800s was the driver of one of the greatest extensions of human life expectancies ever. Are you suggesting we unwind this, and revert to the ravages of cholera once again? I would hope not, but your unqualified claim above implies it.
If I was teaching critical thinking, I would use your comment as the classic example of the problem with extractive sound bite commenting out of context.
You took a single sentence out of a half dozen paragraphs where I was explaining a reasonably complex cultural situation, and then used that sentence to splain me about science despite my obvious inclusion of science.
You stated,
Are you suggesting we unwind this, and revert to the ravages of cholera once again? I would hope not, but your unqualified claim above implies it.
But you missed where I said this, a mere four sentences after the the bit you soundbited,
here's what you get from Pākehā thinking (and this is one of my concerns about 3 Waters).
it creates a premise – that somehow water treatment is a bad thing. And despite acknowledging that it is necessary you then go on to femsplain to me about 'vitality'.
By sheer coincidence I've just finished watched this:
Decades ago I swam in these same pools, and I know the experience too. You do not have to have superior Maori genetics to understand the value of wilderness and truly fresh, mountain or bush fed rivers. That we have collectively allowed our lowland rivers to be compromised by uncontrolled dairy herd runoff and the like is a matter of widespread regret and concern.
But using this legitimate issue as a justification for a completely different and divisive ethno-political agenda is deceitful and manipulative.
It's been reported and reinforced so many times that Maori have a special relationship with nature and water.
While this is true the foundation behind Three Waters is the Treaty of Waitangi and whether the Crown, as one of the parties to the Treaty, needs to/has to abide with a Treaty signed in good faith all those years ago.
"Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure."
This repeated use of "Murrays" in your comments is bizarre.
On an individual level, it raises an ironic smile, because I have whanau connections with "the Murrays" who have a reputation for self-aggrandisement and questionable behaviour.
My feelings aren't hurt, X. I’m not cluttering the thread. No more ad homs is your choice; can’t understand why you used them in the first place. No need to cast yourself as a “waste of time” – all views are welcome here!
The repeated use is a nod to another poster who first used it here in a critique of the unlamented Wayne Brown et al suggested Three Waters 'reform'.
As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari.
My late mother (died 2010 aged 94) used to lament that Europeans in NZ were accepted as having good individuals and bad individuals but that neither good nor bad defined the race. For Maori on the other hand people did not accept that there were good individuals of Maori whakapapa and bad individuals of Maori whakapapa, only bad and that did define the race.
Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race.
"As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari."
So, now that you've indulged your schoolyard repetition (such fun!), do you think you can rejoin the adults?
"Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race."
Yes. I didn't imply otherwise BTW.
Now you are inching towards reality, keep going…
If this is true, then what does "represent the race"?
Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad. All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad.
Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself.
"Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad."
That's a Clayton's answer. Let's leave it for know, but perhaps I'll ask again and you'll have a more insightful response.
"All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad."
Do I really have to point out, this is your own unevidenced assumption? Many critiques have been given as to why people disagree with Three Waters and co-governance that have not suggested "the Maori race as being all bad ". I know you've seen them, because you reply to them.
Is your only takeaway from these exchanges that all who don't support this believe "the Maori race as being all bad".
(Be honest…. isn't that also your take-in to the conversation?)
"Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself."
OK… you mean unless it's you – playing schoolmistress. In which case it's all good.
Looks like the Parliamentary charade is continuing. The Water Services Entities Bill has been reported back to the House with minimal changes, Labour no doubt hoping the legislation now has the cloak of respectability.
But iwi interests will still have effective control of the resource, and if you control something you effectively own it, no matter what rights others have on paper.
Notable too is the inclusion in clauses 4 & 5 of the Bill of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Nowhere are these principles defined, but that is no doubt deliberate. Just make up the rules as you go along.
Strangest of all is the reference in clause 9A to a paragraph from the court case New Zealand Māori Council v Attorney-General. The Bill seeks to rely on an assurance allegedly given by Crown counsel in the course of litigation.
Notable too is the inclusion in clauses 4 & 5 of the Bill of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Nowhere are these principles defined, but that is no doubt deliberate. Just make up the rules as you go along.
Strangest of all is the reference in clause 9A to a paragraph from the court case New Zealand Māori Council v Attorney-General. The Bill seeks to rely on an assurance allegedly given by Crown counsel in the course of litigation.
Are you the NZ equivalent of Rip van winkle and been asleep for two hundred years?…..All through my working life we have court cases/narrative on the clauses in the treaty, the differences in meaning between the English version and the Maori version. We have had occupations of land, we have had marches on Parliament. We have had Treaty Settlements where the Crown Treaty partner has been found to have breached the Treaty. But being asleep you may have missed this.
We have had demos at Waitangi about honouring the Treaty…..
In the 1980/90s NZ Maori Council, representing the other Treaty partner was able to stop the Govt ie the Crown or other Treaty partner in its tracks and force it back to negotiations during the neolib free for all bargain basement sale of crown-owned assets. I am not surprised that it is referred to.
Legislation these days usually has a clause that the legislation binds the crown and refers to the Treaty.
For Rip van Winkle aka Hunter Thompson 11 (hopefully your Nom de owes nothing to Hunter S Thompson.)
New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney-General, also known as the "Lands" case or "SOE" case, was a seminal New Zealand legal decision marking the beginning of the common law development of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Well we used the anchor to stop forward movement, or actually any movement on the yacht.
On another matter, I picked up our local newsletter and find that November it is World Pukarukaru or Jellyfish month. Climate change is meaning we see more Portuguese Man (men?) of War closer in and further south.
The jellyfish invasion has been happening for a while, Shangreah. The salmon farms have been swamped by jellies and don't advertise the events widely 🙂
Robert Guyton. Its true I admire people with the ability to think critically and call out what is really going on.
But I am also a nice person who likes to give credit where credit is due. Its not uncommon for me to acknowledge when I think people hit the nail on the head on this site (often this is Sabine and Molly. But sure Swordfish too and Stuart Munro)
But again I find rather than sticking to the arguements, there is an attempt to deride me. That's o.k. In my mind it speaks volumes about people arguements.
I admire your views and persistence on the Women's issues/trans issues.
I am surprised that you admire the current views of SF. Very different from those of old. Mainly I don't like the insults that surround the views…..people don't just have different views, the critique he/she mounts is surrounded by personal venom.
Weka has many good points one, is to look at Te Pati Maori for their views.
I was married to a Nga Puhi for some years. We were close but even so he did not share with me the points of his soul relating to water/land etc. It was a family thing, none of them did really.
Your husband may be the same
My cousins on the other hand are happy to share with anyone who has an interest. This comes from a long family involvement in Maori aspects due to location and upbringing.
@ Robert re the jellyfish……the articles had several foci re the jellyfish….one was that snorkelers in our Marine Reserve needed to be aware of jellyfish in greater abundance and earlier than in previous years. We used to get them after Christmas in Northern HB years ago often at the end of a long hot summer and in later years down here. They are here now, mid November.
The other article was from Boris Blue Cod who lives at the old bait shed at Island Bay here in Wellington. BBC set out the best ways of dealing with these stings. Gone is the idea of sloshing vinegar.
Splash lots of seawater on.
Apparently putting warmed seawater on followed by immersing in hot tap water for 20mins, elevate, put ice packs around and take pain relief.
Thanks Shanreagh re the gender critical views. I know we are on the same page about this and I appreciate your contributions on GC stuff.
Re Swordfish. Well he has said on this site he is a "dead man walking" re his cancer. So I give anyone in this situation licence to say what they like (but that doesn't mean you have to) . I do wholeheartedly agree with him on issues such as the PMC, cultural elites etc. I really do.
I cop quite a lot of flack on this site. Its not easy. But there you go.
Interesting about your first husband. My husband the same re things Maori. I have been called racist (not on this website, another one). I don't consider I am, but the definition seems to have changed. I think CRT says all white people are racist.
I see it as being about having different ideas.
I don't like three waters for much the same reason Stuart Munro has articulated. I see it being something Labour has been very sneaky about. I understand you likely disagree with this.
I am very concerned about the dampening down of science in this country. Men can be women if they so declare. And I think it was reprehensible what happened to the Listener 7. I think they are bang on. And I understand Mason Durie didn't think Matauranga Maori was science either, nor did he want it regarded as such.
But from my point of view, its not a racist thing that I don't think MM
is science. I am also extremely concerned about the education systerm and the rates of school attendance in this country.
It is worse than that…it is deceitful because the Government have inferred that 3 Waters will reduce the cost of any necessary infrastructure upgrades…patently false when they are proposing to add an additional layer of bureaucracy and the borrowing mechanism will be at a premium to direct Government funding.
If, and it is by no means a given , we attempt to improve the quality, delivery and discharge of (largely) metro water services the costs will be greater under 3 Waters than they otherwise needed to be….however I will suggest here now that the expense and impact on everyones lives will render any great improvement unachieved….and perversely it will be the financially challenged that suffer the most, and Maori are over represented in that cohort.
And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters.
This policy has little to do with 'fixing' water and a lot to do with politics
"And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters."
That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath!
"Zyzzyva is a genus of South American weevils, often found on or near palm trees. It was first described in 1922 by Thomas Lincoln Casey, Jr., based on specimens obtained in Brazil by Herbert Huntingdon Smith. Casey describes Zyzzyva ochreotecta in his book Memoirs on the Coleoptera, Volume 10:"
Thanks for your gift, pat.
I'm embarrassed to own that I've missed your meaning though.
Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it.
"Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it."
What did 'Pat think' Shanreagh?…certainly not what you attribute.
Looking back you may have caught me with the/your sleight of hand regarding nitrates. You berate the concept of three waters for not fixing nitrate problem when it was not designed to do this.
So I did mis-attribute, sorry, as I was caught out by this fast strawman argument.
Did you want Three Waters to have an implicit role on nitrates leaching into water ways?
Times are hard we’ve lost or losing our sense of humour but wasn’t there the slightest little snigger about the concept of a huge big entity called ‘Everything’?
That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath!
I am hoping though that 3 waters may have a role with community water (under council controls now) supplies that are tapped into by irrigators. There are water supply schemes that were set up by Govt and sold? to local owners decades ago. These are not caught by the legislation, as I understand.
Over stocking and over fertilising is not caught by Three Waters per se though if run-off containing an over supply of 'nutrients' gets into catchment areas it may need to be removed. Some of the catchment areas around Wellington are strictly no go areas for the general public, or if you do go there are strict conditions.
I'm not going to go read all the conversation between the two of you. I've asked you both to stop throwing personal abuse. Focus on the politics. Had you not been throwing personal abuse, I would have focused on Stuart's comments alone. But my first priority is to put out the flame war.
I suggest you step away for a while and sort yourself out. You know that’s not what I said. I can tell you that if you try and wind me up I’ll just moderate. First rule of moderation, don’t be a dick to the mods.
I cannot help but feeling that, if dairy farmers are going to treat our waterways like sewers, they should be obliged to build oxidation infrastructure.
This is known technology – there's no mystery about what happens to waterways if they don't.
Robert, In reply to your question about my comment “there is a dampening down of science:
Molly posted a few months back about the science curriculum at High schools. While developing the geology curriculum the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t. Molly also gave another example of her son, I think in his engineering degree covering MM the learnings being completely unscientific (please feel free to correct me Molly is the details aren’t correct).
the listener 7 wrote a very respectful letter to the listener stating MM is important, but it is not science (a view Mason Durie agrees with). One of the 7 is Dr GarthCooper, who is Maori and has taught Maori med students Kaupapa Maori. Dr Siouxie Wiles and Shaun Hendry said it was hurtful and racist what the 7had written. Dawn Freshwater vice chancellor of Auckland Uni backed Hendrix and Wiles up. One of the scientists lost part of his teaching role due to this, Wiles and Hendry complained to the Royal society, who announced on their website page an investigation of the 7 who were members of the society would be held. There was an international outcry from sciences such as Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coune (Chicago university) and at least one other notable international scientist in support of the 7. Three months later the Royal Society backed off.
in my own field, a number of years back at a seminar onMaori approaches, I was told my evidence based approach was an example of colonisation.
Gender ideology and queer theory have infiltrated academia and we now have policy decisions and even laws resulting from this ideology, Judith Butler a key person in queer theory postulates the biological sex is a social construction. This bat shit crazy idea (from the States) has wormed it’s way into our culture and lead to denial of basic biological facts.
these are just a few examples. . Understand that Richard Dawkins is coming to Nz next year, so if you are interested you may want to attend his lectures.
btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it. Like Christian’s are entitled to their views
"the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t."
Anker, I would suggest that direct observation of phenomena, using eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc. is EXACTLY what the scientific method entails.
I wonder if you might consider and respond to this question: does everybody have the same relationship with water, do you think? I have friends who surf and their relationship with salt water is very different from mine.
Robert. The initial comment (months ago) was a report of a conversation I had with someone that was involved with producing the new updated high-school curriculum.
When the advisors where queried about the some of their curriculum inclusions this was the response. I can't surmise anything from this, and neither – frankly – can you.
"I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you might imagine that cultures other than our own might follow a process such as you described."
Don't understand this sentence at all.
But – "other than our own?".
Am I not part of the Maori culture then Robert?
Is my approach to knowledge following observation heresy?
A repetition of the question to Shanreagh:
How are you defining the Maori race, and their culture?
Are you confident your definition is not limited in scope and inclusion?
Few things are more interesting than the power which a little knowledge of scientific matters gives us of seeing wonders in the commonest objects before us, and if what I have said be true on a grand scale, it is also true on a small scale, if we cultivate the faculty of observing nature truthfully, taking care not to be deceived by thinking we understand the things themselves because we have learned to make use of the terms applied to them. Always make it a point in attempting to investigate a subject, to know definitely what is meant by every word you use and hear, and do not be deceived by mere terms or theories; but go plainly to ascertain the laws of nature for yourself, apply your reasoning powers to them; and every one of you may add something important to the stores of human knowledge, if you will only find the occasion to examine common things more accurately than others have had time or opportunity to do before you, and record your observations in perfectly simple and truthful language.
I've been trying to determine what it is that really bothers me about assigning extra meaning and significance to Māori contributions to understanding, art, culture etc, and I've come to the following view:
It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning.
It's another form of racism, but one that makes those that perform it feel great.
I (like many others) have a sincere and deep appreciation for the many aspects of Māori culture, art and perspectives and give it due value. It doesn't need the condescending fripperies and mangled reinterpretations currently assigned to meet current political criteria.
So, I find the mental gymnastics and tortured applications of Māori cultures, understanding and arts to be a patronising dismissal of the existing integral value and quality.
Unfortunately, this acceptable version of racism is becoming more and more familiar.
"I'm seeking to understand what you are meaning by your comment."
Robert, I admire your conversation work and lifestyles choices, but find your approach to dialogue on here to be disingenuous so I'm not going to spend much time answering your question, as I know you have participated in many of these discussions and are equally capable of doing a search when memory fails.
The new biology curriculum has been discussed before:
I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist
I find this incomprehensible when none of my posts offer to tutor them or counsel them……When I futilely, I find now, try to explain my views on reading yet more grinding anti Maori posts and the affect it has on me I am told this is a political blog
I think they have decided to 'stick it' to anyone who tries, in any way shape or form to disentangle or make sense of their arguments or seek clarification.
The outrage almost sounds sincere (although you may want to work on it with your drama teacher a while longer. I think there's someone here at TS who could help you when they recover from their swoon).
Robert, it's just a personal opinion. I have no doubt that most here find you erudite and witty, a charmer of the first degree.
If TS had a popularity contest, I'd probably still vote for you.
"You don't trust the veracity of my comments??"
Didn't say anything about your truthfulness, more your technique. You enjoy it, others appreciate it. I just weigh up the energy costs of engaging and what is produced when I do, and often make the decision not to bother.
Example below:
"Please explain. I do not understand your comments."
fwiw, I can't tell if Robert's response to your comment that he is being disingenuous is real or playful.
Also fwiw, I don't understand what you meant when you said,
I've been trying to determine what it is that really bothers me about assigning extra meaning and significance to Māori contributions to understanding, art, culture etc, and I've come to the following view:
It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning.
and was going to ask for clarification.
I thought this was going to be a really interesting aspect of the conversation, to tease out how people see Māoridom in such different ways.
It seems like the conversation has become heated in places, and sometimes threads go on to long, so not really expecting a response. But my own response was along the lines of it's not 'extra' meaning, it's just meaning. Same way that I relate to most cultures. To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture.
But it’s also possible I didn’t understand what you meant 👍
I’m open to having this conversation at another time too.
I like Robert. I disagree with him on this topic, but find he plays devils advocate more than anything else, so don't actually get much out of taking time to interact with him.
As you said, he comes across as playful, but these are issues of governance, democracy and policy and these discussions should be able to take place with seriousness.
I posted above in response to Robert's similar question, but he didn't reference it when he responded. So, I'm not going to waste much time there.
"To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture."
How do you reconcile the fact that today, Māori have links to the both the present and the past, the colonised and the coloniser, the first settlers, and the more recent settlers. Questions such as this have to be clearly answered if we are changing the forms of ownership and governance.
If they don't make sense, or hold together under challenge or scrutiny, this approach should be abandoned.
The heated aspect doesn't bother me. I try to be clear, without equivocation or making judgements about those I am interacting with. Also, happy to just disagree.
However, I have work to get on with. As you say, another time.
If they don’t make sense, or hold together under challenge or scrutiny, this approach should be abandoned.
If what don’t make sense?
I agree that issues of co-governance need to be explored in depth. What I see in these conversations over time on TS is people not understanding each other (both sides). My wish would be that people slow down and make more effort to get what the other person is saying, rather than trying to push one’s own view. The eternal dilemma for TS (from which I am also not immune) ☺️
The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?
Hi weka. My question was genuine. From Molly's statement, it seems she feels that where added meaning and significance is assigned (not sure by whom) to say, Māori art (not sure if that art in general or a particular piece) then whoever did that, did so because they believe the art has n intrinsic value, and only gets some following their own contribution.
I remain quite puzzled, as you can see. Perhaps you found more meaning than I did?
I didn’t understand what Molly meant either, and had pretty much the same question.
(it wasn’t your question I was unsure about, more your later response to the idea that you were being disingenuous. Having been watching from outside the conversation for a while but certainly not reading all of it, it looks like people are increasingly talking past each other and starting to retrench into positions)
but because I had answered similar questions before, in conversations with Robert thought that this repetition was unnecessary, as searching previous comments would have answered his question. (I am also aware, that no matter how many examples are provided, they will be ignored – as previous ones have been or explained away using the most patronising rhetoric).
Instead of replying to the examples, Robert (once again) drifted off into a dialogue about the comment rather than the examples. It is a familiar pattern in conversations with Robert.
All I am trying to do is patiently point out to all those who are telling me what I am, and how I think, and what I value, that actually, they are incorrect.
That's all.
Unless of course, they can bring themselves to admit that when they speak of Māori, my Māori perspective is not wanted and doesn't meet the grade, so I am not included.
At least that would be honest.
weka – "The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?"
Of course.
There are a lot of things that are true for all peoples. Including the fact that they don't all think the same way, or hold the same ideas, or believe in the same things, or place differing values on the loss of democracy even if it appears to favour them.
The fact that so many on here, speak not for themselves, but for all Māoriwith such certainty, is to me an obvious form of racism.
I know many of say you don't understand, or can't comprehend but that is because your idea of Māori has definitive boundaries and understandings and limits the ability for comprehension when other viewpoints are expressed.
And that, is one of the many reasons why the current co-governance proposals should be abandoned. The attribution of that certainty, that has not be defined, determined or agreed upon.
The scientific method involves observation, but more than that. It is the establishment of facts through testing and experimentation e.g for the covid vacinnes, medicines in general. Maybe you would be interested in listening to Richard Dawkins when he comes.
Re water, everyone has a subjective experience of water that varies. Some people get pleasurable experienes with it (surfers, swimmers). I remember David Parker talking at a Labour Party conference about swimming in rivers and how important that was to him. Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance. They are entitled to this, but it has no place in public policy. Same with your surfer friends (btw I haven't heard surfers elevating themselves as the people who need to be in charge of water).
Exactly though some view water as an extractive resource, something to be used, utilitarian.
Some of the most beautiful paintings and poetry speak of water. Looking at the force of huge waterfalls or feeling the sea and tide on one's feet on a turning tide.
But people with those feelings or who may water as part of their creation stories are to be disregarded as being of no benefit.
It is strange therefore when reading of different ways to communicate that story telling is being used as a 'new' way for retailers etc.
Some cultures regard water in a manner that elevates the water to a place above the prosaic, the status of commodity or receiving environment for waste. Other cultures do not. Some cultures regard water as sentient and possessing of subtle qualities such as the ability to communicate with humans; personhood, in fact. Other cultures dismiss such regard as nonsensical.
There are cultural differences to the relationship between people and water.
The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?
Weka this is a very profound question. It is very common in many families to have connections between past and present to want to know about one's family and learn things about the past. Genealogy is a fast growing hobby.
But not for others.
Then there are others who believe the past can tell them nothing of value for today and the future.
In part of my family every Christmas stocking has an orange in the toe. This is to remember the trip ashore by my gt grandfather in the Canary islands on the way out to NZ in 1884 with his children. He brought back bananas and oranges for his young children, oldest one 11. They had never seen oranges before.
My Gt Grandfather was on the very last boat out to the ship, by which time my 11 year old grandmother was very worried that she would be left to take the four of them on to NZ by herself.
So some would have traditions and others would not.
The scientific method involves observation, but more than that. It is the establishment of facts through testing and experimentation e.g for the covid vacinnes, medicines in general.
Do you accept that people can do that process of observation, and testing to establish facts in their home garden? eg what is the best condition to grow tomatoes?
Re water, everyone has a subjective experience of water that varies. Some people get pleasurable experienes with it (surfers, swimmers). I remember David Parker talking at a Labour Party conference about swimming in rivers and how important that was to him. Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance.
I think you call it special significance because you don't share the belief. To me it's not special, it just is 🤷♀️
They are entitled to this, but it has no place in public policy. Same with your surfer friends (btw I haven't heard surfers elevating themselves as the people who need to be in charge of water).
Fact: Human beings need water for survival.
And if humans could live by reductionist facts alone, you might have a point. But we can't. Humans are utterly dependent upon healthy water ways and cycles for survival and wellbeing. That's what this whole fight is about. The people who think water is an isolated thing and the people who understand that water is a complex being that flows through all of life on the planet.
When we treat water as an isolated thing, we perceive is as being able to come from anywhere. We don't need rivers or lakes, we can just take the most polluted waters and distill, filter or refine them. This world view is how we end up in situations whereby we contaminate the water table. This is happening as we speak in south Canterbury, and the solution being proposed isn't to stop polluting the waterways with industrial ag practices, it's to build an industrial denitrification plant to remove some of the nitrogen before it gets reticulated to people's houses.
In that situation, humans need water to survive. But what we will find is that it gets harder and harder to access clean water to survive because we have conceptually separated water off from the rest of life.
The people in south Canterbury who have bore water instead of reticulated water won't have their water cleaned up a bit by the council. If they can afford it, they can put in some filtration on their property, again this will remove some of the nitrates. If they can't afford that, too bad I guess. They can also drive to town and fill up plastic water containers with water from outside the contaminated area.
Can you not see how insane this is?
there are also boil notices in places because of other kinds of pollution. Add to that, the the pollution of the waterways and now the water table will kill aquatic life.
This is why I don't trust the Pākehā dominant culture to either know how to fix the problem, nor to prevent worse from happening. NZ should be up in arms that we are at the point of contaminating aquifers.
The reason we're not, and the reason we allow this to continue, is because we, culturally, believe water is a thing separate from nature and a resource to be used at our convenience. Māori cultures generally do not believe that, they believe that water is life. Integrating Te Tiriti into water governance is one of the few options we have left now.
afaik there is nothing in what I have just said that is incompatible with science as a key way of knowing for humans. Science is necessary but on its own it's not sufficient.
Yes agreed Weka. Being aware of science, its benefits, it ways of working in no way stops us from seeing if there are other good practices in other cultures.
It is all education. We can learn from all of it.
There are several practices involving the use of Poroporo.
Maori knowledge (by observation and shared record) of the uses they made of Poroporo were shared and that is the reason that it was investigated & used as a constituent for birth control.
In Australia indigenous people recorded that plunging into a particular pool with Ti tree all around where the leaves had drifted down to the pond seemed to improve various skin complaints.
'Tea tree oil is distilled from the leaves of the Melaleuca alternifolia plant, found in Australia. The oil possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, and antifungal properties. A person can treat acne, athlete's foot, contact dermatitis or head lice using tea tree oil'.
I agree with you, science is necessary, but not sufficient. But science as a discipline needs to be ring fenced and preserved. Here is a link about the scienctific method.
Science has allowed our civilisation to make extraordinary advancements (of course this has come at a cost in the terms of global warming). But of course it was the climate scienctists who warned us decades ago of what was going to happen if we didn't slow down carbon emissions. So while many of us may have made the observation that the climate is changing, we would need more than that to verify that is the cause and also to test out theories as to why that is. Observation would never be enough.
Human beings of every culture are entirely dependant on water for survival. Agree. Yes its true I don't share the belief that water has special significance for some people. That is about meaning and belief. But people are entitled to their beliefs.
I like to keep things simple. An example for me is when it was discovered that Wellington water had not been flurodated for a few years. I think there was a quick tweak to the law that allowed the DG of Health (Ashley Bloomfield) to order councils to fluordate the water. Job done. Not everything is that easy to fix of course.
So in the city I live in, there has been a chronic underspend on water infrastructure. Other parts of NZ have councils who have done much better than my city. So the solution to this problem is to find a way to fund a massive project of updating water and waste pipes. So how do we fund such a massive undertaking? According to Peter Davis (Helen Clarks husband) et al, the most straighforward way is to issue government bonds. Sorry don't have a link for this article, I read it ages back. But it makes sense to me.
In my opinion, Including Maturanga Maori in the science curriculum is doing a diservice to both forms of knowledge.
According to Peter Davis (Helen Clarks husband) et al, the most straighforward way is to issue government bonds.
Nope, you got that wrong.
The other major issue is funding. I don’t see how bonds get around it. Yes, they could be spread over a number of years with rates meeting the costs – but that could have been done without the cover of bonds.
Although the thrust of the article agrees with my position it contains much circular argument…eg.
'They began with road maintenance costs, which vary considerably across councils. Some spend $50 to $100 per resident per year on roads; others spend up to $650.
But the difference in costs is not driven by council size – or at least not directly. A lot of low-population councils are geographically vast, with large roading networks to support. Population density matters, as does the amount of driving."
This demonstrates (proves) nothing…certainly not whether population density is a deciding factor in providing adequate or sustainable service….indeed it dosnt even ascertain whether either of those conditions are met.
If this is the quality of our governance then we are truly without hope.
A fair comment. Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits.
Whereas Māoritanga holds certain things as sacred that we have long since profaned in our heedless pursuit of Money
I would say neoliberal capitalism that grew out of the big cultural shift that was the birth of modern science. Descartes, Bacon, and so on, the dudes who decided that matter and spirit are separate, and that humans are somehow distinct. The regressive nature of the churches in the West at that time didn't help.
We could trace that back to the advent of agriculture perhaps. Or as Douglas Adams put it, coming down from the trees in the first place was a bad idea.
Whatever it is, we are fortunate in NZ to have Māori presenting us daily with a different way of thinking and knowing.
"Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits."
Our modern culture…roblogic.
Of which we all play a part. As a Pākehā, I have never voted or made life choices that support a neoliberal capitalist approach to people and the plant. Are you sure you can lay accusation at the feet of all Pākehā? Are you also certain that no Māori has participated in the growth or development of a neoliberal capitalism?
Or when you speak of Māori, is it an abstract concept, devoid from all those with Māori whakapapa?
WSEs are responsive to councils’ planning processes
Revisions to the Bill make it clear that WSEs need to support councils’ planning processes and growth strategies.
Ensuring all voices are heard at the table
The make-up of the Regional Representative Group will be required to consider the appropriate mix of metro, provincial and rural councils to ensure smaller councils have a voice alongside larger councils.
Increased accountability to communities
The Entities will be required to have an annual shareholder meeting to keep them accountable to communities. This is in addition to the existing requirements in the Bill around responsiveness and accountability to communities, which exceed the current requirements in the Local Government Act.
Means what it says, 'dominant' is an important qualifier and as roblogic says not individuals. In a Pakeha dominant culture other cultures play a minority role. I suspect that this is despite all the efforts by this govt and some others to 'honour the treaty' and to do right by it, for its partner that is also in a minority.
The reason we're not, and the reason we allow this to continue, is because we, culturally, believe water is a thing separate from nature and a resource to be used at our convenience. Māori cultures generally do not believe that, they believe that water is life. Integrating Te Tiriti into water governance is one of the few options we have left now.
Water is life. Generally the human body can survive about 3 days without water.
“water is life” strikes me as a Western, reductionist view though. My explanation above, when we say that water is necessary for humans to stay alive two things happen,
water is separated off from the rest of nature, while humans are centred
the health and the wellbeing of the water is decentred
Compare to “ko wai ko au, ko au ko wai”. Which can be translated in a reductionist way into English, or it can be taken as a doorway to understanding that we are water, where water is part of nature (ie the rivers, lakes, streams, marshes, oceans, rain, snow and so on), there is no inherent separation. Water as a relation.
Inherent in the concept is the relationship between humans and water as a being that by its very nature isn’t just h20, but is the river, the lake, the marsh and so on. The whole thing.
Compare to “ko wai ko au, ko au ko wai”. Which can be translated in a reductionist way into English, or it can be taken as a doorway to understanding that we are water, where water is part of nature (ie the rivers, lakes, streams, marshes, oceans, rain, snow and so on), there is no inherent separation. Water as a relation.
Inherent in the concept is the relationship between humans and water as a being that by its very nature isn’t just h20, but is the river, the lake, the marsh and so on. The whole thing.
My point, not very well expressed, was trying to move those who regard water just as an extractive resource of no meaning except for making money, to perhaps say that 'as humans we need water, & a whole heap of water and this water needs to be safe and clean'. So we move them along the scale from, something to use until it is all gone, to a quarter/eighthway house that says:
if I am to continue as a human it is more important to use water for humans than for making money.
(don't underestimate the difficulty of doing this with the prosperity gospel here in NZ
The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth)
We are not going to persuade these types of people by a mix of arguments, only one that messages straight to their back pocket, ('wallet may get slimmer') or their health ('you might die of a waterborne disease'). We will not persuade them by the simple philosophical truths from the observed natural world and its interlinkages.
This is the same reason mind changing in human rights by appealing to a fair go for all individuals is lost on these often same people. So we have education, laws, policies in workplaces backed up by a willingness to use performance penalties so that breaches in the workplace are dealt with. So that people know that their ability to derive money and status may be interrupted by their breaches.
Catering with messages like these does not mean we reduce it to just human focussed except for those whose belief is this.
Just as we are never going to persuade those to whom Maori art, observed natural linkages, wisdom, use of Rongoa, use of myths and legends to reinforce messages are just emblems or tokens of very mild interest from a so-called less devolved culture.
‘It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning’. From Molly, gives the flavour of this view and dismisses any point about having to translate/interpret because we are not all bi-lingual Maori/English.
We waste time doing trying to educate. (Sacha's point)
We need to counter them (accept we cannot persuade them to a different view) and built up interest, or at least remove the idea that this change is threatening, in those who are willing to face a different future in the hope that it is better than the one we have now.
All pretty much accurate, Anker. (Three of the previous conversations can be found here).
"btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it."
This secular/spiritual/undefinable is very much like the counter arguments put forward when groups wanted to do a Karakia at the start of meetings…,back in the early 90s.
I am so sad we still seem to be mired in this. It was a non event then and it is now. Those of us involved in potentially difficult discussions usually welcomed as much guidance, good fortune and blessings that came our way. We also found that the more extended meeting protocols had a benefit in that we 'met' each other. So often in high powered policy type meetings people just rushed in and out. People took it for granted everyone knew each other, they often didn't.
Do people really not know now how far we have come, how much we have benefitted, especially in govt circles from an involvement from Maori?
Usually legislation/policy will help with direction so that the undefinable becomes defined by legally or by use. When you hear in the lands field iwi members talking of their relationships, passed down from ancestors, with stones, streams, paths etc and hear the stories and in the health field about Rongoa Maori there is a richness. Also a sense of calmness, even though discussions can get feisty. Not saying that Pakeha don't have a relationship with their Turangawaewae, they do.
This is some kind of an internal dispute across NZ university departments and staff. Its unlikely that anything to do with logic is relevant here, but if you can understand the groupings involved and their relationship to each other sense can probably be made. Richard Dawkins appears to have stumbled into it, thinking it was a relevant discussion of epistemology of science.
There appear to be some departments of history and sociology in NZ who are writing alternative histories of science which prioritize Maori understanding of scientific ideas. This goes a bit off the rails when your taking mythology and interpreting a genuine discovery of modern scientific concepts from it (which Dawkins objects to) because there is too much extrapolation beyond the evidence, though this is ultimately about history of science, not what is science anyway.
But as with other kinds of inter departmental dispute you don't see what the actual problem is from the arguments made. This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it.
"This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it."
That appears to becoming a standard for academic discourse at present.
Interesting Nic. I also read a Spinoff article with a woman defending Maori scientific discovery in the context of Dawkins visit. Nothing she said changed my mind. It is the dumbing down of science.
We will never know what you're referring to if you don't provide a link, so that we can read the same article, form our own opinion, and discuss this with you here, if we so wish
I am not referring specifically to the article other than to say it is a competent placing of the differences and similarities of Maori observational techniques and records and European observational techniques.
I left TS for a break after reading the posts from Anker & Molly. I felt intuitively that both were on the wrong road and pulling our examples that were not relevant. In a word after much thought I felt 'colonised'. I through upbringing, family connections, job choice share much of the wonder at Maori observational techniques as I do with the work of Fibonacci whose observational techniques moved maths from Roman derived to Arabic derived.
My point is that nothing in the world that we observe or describe or do, is static. We are as much able to draw on any culture on the world as we are our own.
I have never had this 'colonised' experience as a lily white Pakeha but felt that this is what is happening to me in the comments in both these posts.
What must it feel like to those who study, who receive comfort and mana from a Maori world view.
So for some reason (lost on me*) we need to compare observational methods brought here from Europe with that used by Maori. So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this. So to determine the simialrlites and differences we use one of the methods to guide us. This is truly weird in my view.
No mention of ethnographers who might be able to compare the systems of indigenous peoples, we just 'find' Maori science does not look like the European method so we dismiss it. No need to study that we say.
Can we not accept that Maori have a different set of skills, meaning and views from European and other cultures.
They just have and there is value in looking at these from the standpoint of learning. Of course in all learning, if it is successful, we take meaning forward into our lives.
To learn these in NZ is of particular benefit as we seek to find out how Maori relate to the world, & NZ, as our indigenous people. While we may study say Mayan culture/science and learn from it, our next door neighbours, spouses and children may be Maori. Surely we would want to know their beliefs, what makes them tick.
Can we not accept Maori science/geography etc is just there. It exists. Maori exist in our communities and have as much right to their views as die hard scientific methods proponents.
Extending this further Maori have as much right to have their views considered, in the operations of govt as anyone else. In fact looking at the treaty you could probably say they have a right enshrined as one of two treaty partners.
In my view knowledge is knowledge where it comes from. To try to look at it/evaluate it through the lens of European culture is shortsighted at best and 'colonising' at worst. There is room for both.
I doubt I have captured my unease properly/competently but I feel the denigration still.
Not really it harks back to the unhelpful slants that are being taken in the ‘Woe is me’ Three Waters and the involvement of Maori is going to be the end of civilisation as we know it’ brigade. This is a subset of the anti Treaty stuff and I have no wish to discuss this.
I’m trying to be as agnostic and dispassionate as possible and try judge comments on their merit and strength of arguments. This is not easy when there are so many things going on simultaneously and people are not necessarily on the same page talking about the same stuff and in the same language with the same concepts and meanings – and I’m not even talking about te reo Māori vs. English and the diverging interpretations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
I thought of expanding this by using an illustrative example and analogy of translating Shakespeare into te reo and what ‘claims’ could be made about the nature of that result in terms of culture, meaning & understanding, and appreciation, etc., and if and how it could or would affect the contributing components – cultural emergence, which happens all the time and everywhere without even realising because it is actually such a natural process (for humans). But I don’t have enough time and this is a political blog, and perhaps not the most appropriate place for those kinds of musings and discussions, which are or should be a-political and non-partisan.
This is fascinating topic. It would be great to get feedback from audience/actors presumably bi-lingual on the emotions and cultural issues evoked. Undoubtedly having two contexts to draw from makes it a richer experience. Much the same listening to the language rather than reading the subtitles when watching foreign made films.
Othello and The Merchant of Venice have both been translated in Maori.
My partner is a polyglot. When speaking the language he 'becomes' a person from that country in language and often mannerism.
Different cultures have different responses or views from ours.
So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this.
And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them.
Why didn't Anker summarise the article. She did not bother to even link to it, name the person who was the author, just referred to her as 'a woman'.
My frame of reference with the qualifications was to put paid to the statement of 'a woman' made by Anker, you know any old woman. I was to say that this is not in fact any old woman but one with a Phd and holding a Professorship. On the face of it qualified to write on this topic.
I made the point that I was not going to match any of my qualifications up against hers. Hers is a voice worth listening to from the point of view of scholarship.
She possibly may have a better handle on the issues than you or me. She definitely is better qualified than I am.
I have no inkling of Anker's qualifications and made no mention of these. You have misunderstood my point on this. If Anker's qualifications match hers then fine. Mine certainly don't. I made the point that her qualifications may mean that she has a better grasp of the topic.
There is a difference between scholarship and opinion. We here have many and varied opinions, they are not scholarship, though the authors of topics have clear, researched referenced topics to get us going.
As to the word 'performative', I have seen this too often lately and so conclude that this is a new buzz word and therefore essentially meaningless.
As to 'performative' and performance though, I do lay claim to being a tree and a squeaking rat (as an adult) in a pantomime of Dick Whittington and a chorus girl in another pantomime. Then I've been in a women's barbershop type chorus and in the chorus of the Messiah probably half a dozen times since age 13.
Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults.
I was going to let you calm down after the above embarassing comment (which you had ten minutes to delete after posting. Have really you got such delayed self-awareness?):
I left TS for a break after reading the posts from Anker & Molly. I felt intuitively that both were on the wrong road and pulling our examples that were not relevant. In a word after much thought I felt 'colonised'. I through upbringing, family connections, job choice share much of the wonder at Maori observational techniques as I do with the work of Fibonacci whose observational techniques moved maths from Roman derived to Arabic derived.
…I have never had this 'colonised' experience as a lily white Pakeha but felt that this is what is happening to me in the comments in both these posts.
What must it feel like to those who study, who receive comfort and mana from a Maori world view."
But you're back because you just can't help yourself.
"Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults. "
Yes, I noted that comment, and previously refrained from responding… but since you brought it up…
"When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary."
Shanreagh, you have no need of any help in this respect.
I wrote my 'embarrassing' article that you have quoted from at 1.55pm this afternoon. I had experienced a profound feeling that I likened to colonisation instancing an attempt to compare Maori observational and learning techniques using an Euro-centric lens. This is what I see now happens to many cultural aspects of our Treaty partner.
To resile from this at 9.00pm, some 7 hours later I would have had to contact Mods etc. But I do not resile from the views. I have always felt that much of the arguments against Maori culture were based on misunderstanding, often wilful misunderstanding.
Looking back to this morning I see I may have been radicalised online, on TS shortly after reading yours and Anker's continuation of unsympathetic posts. I was very disturbed by them.
Not by swift and sure logical rational argument as one would think that radicalisation happens but by reading plodding, 'One nation, One race' theories.
This was a profound feeling for me. You mock it, call it embarrassing.
I was going to let you calm down after the above embarassing comment (which you had ten minutes to delete after posting.
There is nothing embarrassing about that post or the one I made at 1.55pm. It had several comments but you have not mentioned any to take issue with instead referring to and mocking this happening of mine.
You do not understand the modern meaning of ‘colonisation’ if you cannot grasp what I am saying. You are using it I suspect to mean events harking back to Britain and its colonies etc.
I used it advisedly, with care and with a knowledge that something had happened to me that had happened to others, that I had empathised with previously. I was not using it to be disrespectful of those today who still experience the effects of colonisation. (Strange that you should be caring about my use and presumably feel I, as a Pakeha, was a bit cheeky laying claim to this modern feeling? )
I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist.
Good grief, I would never want to be your personal tutor, and neither would I want you to be my therapist. You lack empathy. Empathy is needed on a political blog.
So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this. (from Shanreagh's post of 1.55pm 17/11)
And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them. (from Sacha)
Exactly.
Got it in one. Thank you for reading the post of mine, it was a profound experience for me to feel. I am grateful.
Imagine if you are Maori and you will find this framing and running comments is not limited to water but to
every part of the way you live your life, your beliefs is run through the lens of the dominant culture,
the resultant criticism is unsparing of not only you and your culture, but any others who see what is happening
others, often from the dominant culture, cast aspersions based on their lack of knowledge and often from an unwillingness to even seek out other sources.
I can see how people feel colonised, like smothered, then it also feels as if every time you try to comment the ground rules change.
Why is there a need to smother rather than letting people just be?
If we accept that Maori have a different world view on water, land etc.
What is the skin off our collective noses?
Does the sky fall in? No, of course it doesn't.
Could we learn something from these views? Of course we can
All human knowledge starts with observation and the ability to abstract patterns from it. All societies – not just the Maori – did this and have legacies of cultural knowledge that can be found everywhere. As Anker, Molly and myself have repeatedly stated – there is no reason to discount or diminish this legacy. Embedded in this knowledge are gems of information and insight that an open and curious mind will often usefully re-interpret in light of modern understandings.
But scientific method took this deep tradition of observational sense making a vital step further. It introduced a series of formalisms and methods that delivered determinism and repeatability, which in turn enabled the mass development of modern materials, technologies and engineering.
This is why claims that MM is the equivalent of science are so fatuous. There are no Maori Maxwell-Heaviside Equations ; General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, or Standard Model . There is no deep and formal body of Maori Mathematics that underpins all of these ideas and much more. It was not that Maori, like pre-Industrial people everywhere, were not good observers of their world – but geographically isolated, lacking a written language, access to energy, and a secure economic continuity – they simply did not get to a Scientific Revolution. That being the state of the overwhelming record of human history.
Nonetheless humanity collectively moved toward modernity over millennia of slow, patchy progress, with many crucial historic contributions from many cultures. That it was Europe where this progress came to a focal point during the Rennaissance and later the Industrial Revolution, is entirely an accident of geography and historic circumstance. It was always going to happen somewhere, sometime – and was most likely to happen in a part of the world that was both populous and well connected, socially fluid, yet sufficiently stable, and had easy access to coal, metals and minerals. It could have happened 2000 years earlier during the late Bronze Age, but they missed out on the easy access to coal – Europe in the 1600 – 1800s however ticked all the boxes all at the same time. And this changed everything.
The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history.
Well described, Redlogix. Yours is a comprehensive description of a significant portion of the modern world.
This though:
"The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history." is a puzzle. You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation. Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?
"You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation.
So, the basis of this is nothing to do with the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is about the "colonisation tool" that science provided "white supremacists"?
"Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?"
What do you consider successful?
If we are talking a successful colonisation – wouldn't the most successful ones involve genocide and elimination of any record of previous peoples?
(There are instances of this occurring in the past pieced together by scientists, but not recorded in the oral histories and traditions of those that replaced the original people.)
It wasn't science that aided those colonisers, it was the propensity for violence.
The competition for resources is reduced by many of the applications of scientific knowledge, reducing that impetus for genocide and colonisation.
Apologies for not responding sooner. You ask a perfectly reasonable question.
You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation. Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?
Elsewhere I have made the case that all pre-Industrial societies were compelled by the limits of photosynthesis to expand their territories in order to thrive. Hence what Molly has described as 'a propensity to violence' that drove the Age of Empire.
By the 1600's the Europeans were at least 100 years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology and political sophistication, and this combined with an age old habit of empire drove one last impulse of colonisation across the globe. The resulting cultural collisions were both tragic and inevitable.
As colonisers encountered indigenous cultures everywhere there was a considerable dismay on both sides; the new arrivals were often disturbed by what they saw as squalid, backward lives, racked by superstitions and violence – while the local people had their sense of the world turned inside out, losing both identity as a people and their values and traditions trampled on. Even with the best motives imaginable – this was always going to be a traumatic collision.
And in attempting to explain this highly visible European dominance it was perhaps understandable that many would reach to the idea that perhaps white people were naturally superior by breeding. After all they were very familiar with selective breeding livestock for improved characteristics, and their social hierarchies were still dominated by hereditary family dynasties and intense social class structures. (As were almost all pre-Industrial societies.)
With the benefit of a century of science in a wide range of field from genetics to geography, from psychology to philosophy we now understand that these explanations for European dominance invoking racial supremacy were profoundly incorrect – but neither should we rush to judge our ancestors who lived in a completely different intellectual landscape than us. The history of humanity is littered with once powerful bad ideas that have long been discarded.
And to underline Molly's last sentence – the very process of science and industrialisation also undermined the core driver of empire. It was no longer necessary to expand territory to become prosperous; instead access to knowledge, educated people, stable rule of law governance, stable commerce and the ability to trade on fair terms have become the signature themes of an astonishing explosion of modern prosperity and human development our ancestors would find indistinguishable from magic.
A national body free of vested interests with the teeth to stop discharges of nitrogen-rich wastewater would be an improvement.
A scientist says Waimate's drinking water nitrate contamination could be linked to recent changes in land use, including wastewater discharge from Oceania Dairy's factory in South Canterbury.
The Waimate District Council previously suggested flooding in the region was to blame, and Environment Canterbury thinks it is unlikely the dairy factory is a factor.
But University of Otago public health specialist Dr Tim Chambers said: "It looks like the Oceania Dairy Factory could be playing a part."
In New Zealand our drinking water standards say that the maximum amount of nitrate contamination allowed in our drinking water is 11.3mg per litre. This is based on the World Health Organisation limit necessary to avoid blue baby syndrome.
But there’s growing evidence that other health impacts occur with nitrate in water at much lower levels.
International studies have shown a link to increased bowel cancer risk at only 0.87mg/L of nitrate in drinking water. That’s one thirteenth of New Zealand’s current limit of 11.3mg/L.
And a new study found that at just 5mg/L, nitrate contamination in drinking water can increase the risk of a premature birth by half.
Why this reform? After all, the water coming out of my taps is (still) drinkable, or at least I haven't been told otherwise, and I'm certainly not going to waste electricity boiling it. Plus the various storm/wastewater drains here seem to be doing their jobs.
Still, my local city council has indicated how they intend to spend some of that lovely lovely 3Waters money – sounds a bit 'woke' ("We fight the woke…"), and a little too tangata whenua for my liking, but live and let live.
Some water infrastructure and public health experts claim that significant investment is required to maintain, if not enhance, the provision of water services in Aotearoa New Zealand. Maybe the proposed 3Waters amalgamation is flawed and won't deliver good value for money, but (for it or agin it), it is a way to channel the dosh, and maybe get some economies (and expertise) of scale. Tokyo has 37 million residents.
Water Issues Under The Spotlight At Major Conference [17 Oct 2022]
Three waters reform and the need for resilience in the face of climate change are among the key topics at the Water New Zealand Conference and Expo 2022 which gets underway tomorrow at Te Pae in Ōtautahi Christchurch.
More than 1000 delegates are expected to attend the annual event which attracts leaders and professionals from across the water services industry and business.
Heck, with that many NZ water service leaders and professionals able to spare time to attend, it's a wonder Kiwiland has any water worries at all.
Bottom line (for me): the 3Waters initiative is one way to improve our ageing water infrastructure, and it has progressive (or frightening, depending on your PoV) treaty partnership elements. In order to test whether it's too progressive, implement it sooner rather than later. If it subsequently proves unworkable, e.g. those 'bloody Maaris' start gouging unearned profit (they're learning) and increasing my costs [user-pays costs are OK – I don't use much water], then I'll consider voting for a party promising repeal. IF.
President Vladimir Putin proposed to deprive acquired citizenship for "military fakes" and discrediting the army. Such amendments were made to the draft law on citizenship adopted in the first reading, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the text of the document.
Labour want to gamble on an affirmative action with a resource that concerns everyone. Antidemocratic as well as profoundly unwise.
There is part of the/your problem in comprehension (which surprises me as you are usually an on to it poster)
This is far from the almost sneering ref to 'affirmative action'.
This is far deeper than this. It involves whether or not NZ as a constitutional entity respects and delivers on a Treaty signed in 1840 and abides by the rule of law that governs us all. If we, as the Crown, let 'honouring the treaty' go there are any number of International laws/bodies that will remind us.
I would like NZ to keep moving forward in its race relations, abiding with rather than having our country taken to an international court of some sort, or even the Supreme court here in NZ so that we (the Crown) are forced, in the glare of publicity to back down.
There is precedent for this. NZ Maori Council took the Govt of the day to court during the time of asset sales and won. (As far as land was concerned this was to the private relief of many PS who were working in this field) So our treaty partner was able to stop part of the sale of land during a time when nobody else could.
And more profoundly, good people/nations abide by the rule of law and know when it is the right thing to do.
Two parties signed the Treaty HMQ England now HMK NZ, and Maori. Do you think we need a referendum on whether to abide by the rule of law? Do we need a referendum say on the metes and bounds of our diplomatic efforts with China, Taiwan, Asia generally? How about a referendum on the type of seal to use on new roads? There has been some grumbling here in Wellington about the type of seal that was used on Transmission Gully (noisy) I reckon that would be a good topic for a referendum.
But a referendum on whether to abide by a Treaty or the rule of law……nah. Silly idea.
Treaty activism is all well and good, but the legal fiction only goes so far. Britain made a number of similar treaties around the same time, and they were boilerplates, or translations of boilerplates.
I didn't ask for a referendum – I merely want the power to vote out the Maori stewards of the 3 waters, should they prove to be as corrupt as Max Bradford, and steal that critical public resource.
I've seen no sign of an oversight or audit mechanism – which is irresponsible.
There were a number of oversight mechanisms, I thought, that came forward from the select committee process.
Hunter Thompson above says the bill was reported back with 'minimal changes' that, with a lack of time to look myself, I took as meaning they did not go forward. He of course may be thinking audit and oversight ramifications were 'minimal' whereas I thought/think they would strengthen the bill.
As much as I do not like the electricity reforms of Max Bradford I do not describe him as being corrupt any more than I would describe those in the Labour Govt who signed up to the neo lib reform coming out of Chicago as being corrupt.
Giving effect to treaties, no matter how they are written, whether boilerplate or not is based on settled law/precedent, subject to judicial oversight and in some cases international legal over sight.
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Eric Crampton writes – Grudges are bad. Better to move on. But it can be fun to keep a couple of really trivial ones, so you’re not tempted to have other ones. For example, because of the rootkit fiasco of 2005, no Sony products in our household. ...
A new report warns an estimated third of the adult population have unmet need for health care.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāHere’s the six key things I learned about Aotaroa’s political economy this week around housing, climate and poverty:Politics - Three opinion polls confirmed support for PM Christopher Luxon ...
Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech: AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
Is the economy in another long stagnation? If so, why?This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be ...
The annual list of who's been bribing our politicians is out, and journalists will no doubt be poring over it to find the juiciest and dirtiest bribes. The government's fast-track invite list is likely to be a particular focus, and we already know of one company on the list which ...
In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This week’s announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House – but it’s not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand: The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasury’s forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
Winston Peters’ comments about former Australian foreign minister look set to be an ongoing headache for both him and Luxon. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts and , along with regular guests on Gaza and ...
These puppet strings don't pull themselvesYou're thinking thoughts from someone elseHow much time do you think you have?Are you prepared for what comes next?The debating chamber can be a trying place for an opposition MP. What with the person in charge, the speaker, typically being an MP from the governing ...
The land around Lyme Regis, where Meryl Streep once stood, in a hood, on the Cobb, is falling into the sea.MerylThe land around Lyme Regis, around the Cobb that made it rich, has always been falling slowly but surely into the sea. Read more ...
Photo by Jari Hytönen on UnsplashIt’s that new day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when and I co-host our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm. Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream for our chat about the week’s news ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters was bound to win headlines when he set out his thinking about AUKUS in his speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. The headlines became bigger when – during an interview on RNZ’s Morning Report today – he criticised ...
The Post reports on how the government is refusing to release its advice on its corrupt Muldoonist fast-track law, instead using the "soon to be publicly available" refusal ground to hide it until after select committee submissions on the bill have closed. Fast-track Minister Chris Bishop's excuse? “It's not ...
As pressure on it grows, the livestock industry’s approach to the transition to Net Zero is increasingly being compared to that of fossil fuel interests. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / Getty ImagesTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above ...
The New Zealand Herald reports – Stats NZ has offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all of its workers as a way to give staff some control over their “future” amidst widespread job losses in the public sector. In an update to staff this morning, seen by the Herald, Statistics New Zealand ...
On Werewolf/Scoop, I usually do two long form political columns a week. From now on, there will be an extra column each week about music and movies. But first, some late-breaking political events:The rise in unemployment numbers for the March quarter was bigger than expected – and especially sharp ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: TVNZ says it is dealing with about 50 formal complaints over its coverage of the latest 1News-Verian political poll, with some viewers – as well as the Prime Minister and a former senior Labour MP – critical of the tone of the 6pm report. ...
Muriel Newman writes – When Meridian Energy was seeking resource consents for a West Coast hydro dam proposal in 2010, local Maori “strenuously” objected, claiming their mana was inextricably linked to ‘their’ river and could be damaged. After receiving a financial payment from the company, however, the Ngai Tahu ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...
New research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...
There has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...
Welcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...
It is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...
New Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...
A new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...
The Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...
Minister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...
New Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...
Six tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...
New Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...
The OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Next week the government will again next try to get its legislation through to deal with non-citizens who won’t cooperate with efforts to deport them. The bill, which the opposition and crossbench refused to rush ...
A long-term project that will set out an alternative vision for Aotearoa that looks beyond the narrow confines of the policy straight jacket adopted by successive governments. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bree Hurst, Associate Professor, Faculty of Business and Law, QUT, Queensland University of Technology TK Kurikawa/Shutterstock A much-awaited report into Coles and Woolworths has found what many customers have long believed – Australia’s big supermarkets engage in price gouging. What started ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daniel Ghezelbash, Associate Professor and Deputy Director, Kaldor Centre for International Refugee Law, UNSW Law & Justice, UNSW Sydney The Albanese government wanted to avoid an inquiry into its migration amendment bill. The report, handed down yesterday by a senate committee that ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Joo-Cheong Tham, Professor, Melbourne Law School, The University of Melbourne Lobbying is at the heart of government. Who has access to and influence over key government officials shapes the decisions governments make – and how they make them. The ability to influence ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Myfany Turpin, Associate Professor, Ethnomusicology, Linguistics and Ethnobiology, University of Sydney The act representing Australia at this year’s Eurovision contest has sadly not qualified for the grand final. Yet for Zaachariaha Fielding and Michael Ross, the duo that makes up Electric Fields, ...
In announcing changes to the school lunches programme, David Seymour said kids would no longer be served ‘woke’ foods. To clear up any confusion, The Spinoff has compiled a guide to the wokeness levels of some common food items. Apple = NOT WOKE Avocado = WOKE Avocado, smashed = EVEN ...
The Minister Responsible for GCSB and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security have been notified of this review, and have been provided a finalised Terms of Reference. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Minglu Chen, Senior Lecturer, Government and International Relations, University of Sydney Robert Way/Shutterstock As the past few years have illustrated so clearly, the Australia-China relationship is complicated. As such, it is crucial for Australians to develop a more nuanced understanding of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mariana Campbell, Research Lecturer, Conservation, Charles Darwin University Marilyn Connell Australian freshwater turtles are facing an alarming trend. Almost half of these species are listed as vulnerable, endangered or critically endangered. The Mary River turtle (Elusor macrurus) is one of Australia’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Debbie Passey, Digital Health Research Fellow, The University of Melbourne Algorithms have become integral to our lives. From social media apps to Netflix, algorithms learn your preferences and prioritise the content you are shown. Google Maps and artificial intelligence are nothing without ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Josephine Barbaro, Associate Professor, Principal Research Fellow, Psychologist, La Trobe University Unsplash We’ve come a long way in terms of understanding that everyone thinks, interacts and experiences the world differently. In the past, autistic people, people with attention deficit hyperactive disorder ...
PNG Post-Courier Papua New Guinea’s deputy opposition leader James Nomane has accused the government of “reckless economic management” that has forced devaluation to manage loan repayments in foreign currency and placate the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Prime Minister James Marape “must stop lying to the people of Papua New Guinea”, ...
Welcome to The Spinoff Bookseller Confessional, in which we get to know Aotearoa’s booksellers. This week: Jane Arthur, author of Brown Bird, and former bookseller at Good Books.The book I wish I’d writtenI have been working on not comparing myself to others. On accepting that what I can ...
The final decision on the Wellington District Plan makes it official: High-density housing is legal across most of Wellington. Housing minister Chris Bishop has announced his decision on the Wellington District Plan, approving a series of amendments to radically upzone most of Wellington, allowing tens of thousands of new townhouses ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards – Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. “Follow the money” is the classic directive to journalists trying to understand where power and influence lie in society. In terms of uncovering who influences various New Zealand political parties and governments, it therefore pays to ...
RNZ News As Israel presses ahead with strikes in Rafah and seizing the Rafah crossing from Egypt, aid agencies are sounding the alarm of a “catastrophic humanitarian situation”. Rafah was “significant” because it was the only part in Gaza that had not been terribly damaged by the conflict, United Nations ...
With funding set to be scrapped for the Hamilton-Auckland commuter train, Te Huia enthusiast Georgie Dansey argues for it to be thrown a lifeline. It’s 5.45am and the chain of my crappy old bike falls off slugging up the one hill in Hamilton. I contemplate yeeting the bike into the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anna Cooke, Honorary Fellow, School of the Environment, The University of Queensland We feel ecological grief when we lose places, species or ecosystems we value and love. These losses are a growing threat to mental health and wellbeing globally. We all see ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Shauna Brail, Associate Professor, Institute for Management & Innovation, University of Toronto A shift to hybrid and remote work continues to affect worker presence in Toronto’s downtown.(Shutterstock) Downtown Toronto, the core of Canada’s largest city, continues to reel from the lingering ...
Responding to an Auditor-General's report slamming failures in the administration of the 2023 General Election, Taxpayers’ Union Policy and Public Affairs Manager, James Ross, said: ...
Productivity apps now make up a big chunk of the software market. But do they work? And why do they all have AI integrations?Despite being firmly on the record as a physical planner fan, I sometimes dream of something better than my pretty diary and its scrawled, ugly, interior ...
The Taxpayers’ Union says the Beehive need to lead by example, following reports of more than $50,000 spent upgrading video conferencing equipment and furniture in the Prime Minister’s office. Taxpayers’ Union Campaign Manager, Connor Molloy, ...
An objective list of the 50 most powerful people in New Zealand, as judged by the Spinoff Editorial Board. It’s power list season, baby, and we want in on the action. Sure, there’s the rich list and the powerful “c-suite” list and the young people with power (hmmm) but here, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Thalia Anthony, Professor of Law, University of Technology Sydney ShutterstockThis article contains information on deaths in custody and the names of deceased people, and describes ongoing colonial violence towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. First Nations people in Australia ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alex Simpson, Senior Lecturer in Criminology, Macquarie University Netflix Baby Reindeer’s phenomenal success has much to do with its writer and lead, Richard Gadd, who plays Donny in a tender semi-autobiographical account of sexual abuse, harassment and stalking. Gadd’s story has ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Collins, Laureate Professor in Nutrition and Dietetics, University of Newcastle KarolinaGrabowska/Pexels If you didn’t have food allergies as a child, is it possible to develop them as an adult? The short answer is yes. But the reasons why are much ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Paul Moon, Professor of History, Auckland University of Technology Ans Westra, self-portrait, c. 1963. National Library ref AWM-0705-F They try but invariably fail – those writers who believe they are capable of encapsulating in prose or verse the essence of ...
Stewart Sowman-Lund looks at the growing concern around the world in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. What’s all this? When Covid-19 arrived on our shores in early 2020, some argued we were too slow, or crucially, ill-prepared for a pandemic. So ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Franco Montalto, Professor of Civil, Architectural and Environmental Engineering and Director, Sustainable Water Resource Engineering Laboratory, Drexel University Water runs into a storm drain in a Los Angeles alley on Aug. 19, 2023, during Tropical Storm Hilary.Citizen of the Planet/Universal Images ...
The inquest into the death of Gore toddler Lachlan Jones has turned up a new witness who says he saw two teenagers and a small child in a high vis vest in the area where the boy’s body was found the day he died. Lachie’s body was discovered face up ...
Stories from the tenancy trenches, featuring spider infestations, cupboard rats and same-sex discrimination. Lucy’s brother was living in a damp 1930s building in Mt Eden where “he had to tie the cupboard doors closed so the rats didn’t get in”. Although he shared custody of his six-year-old son, his property ...
Simeon Brown, Chris Luxon, and Wayne Brown climbed into a hole and announced a plan to solve Auckland’s water woes. This is how it’ll work. New Zealand’s pipes are munted. They’re cracked and leaking, and struggling to handle all the extra poos excreted by our rising population. It’s a big, ...
Wellington long jumper Phoebe Edwards is back and she’s having fun again. Until this year, Edwards, a top athlete in her teens, had never competed as a senior athlete in New Zealand. In March, the 26-year-old won a national long jump title in a lifetime best of 6.28m after ...
After replacing a fifth of their caucus in just four months, the Greens’ opportunity to reset, reshuffle and refocus on the Government is quickly slipping away The post Persistent Green Party scandals delay caucus reset appeared first on Newsroom. ...
I knew Taika Waititi quite well when he was a kid. His mother lived in a tall narrow house in Aro St, and my youngest sister had a similar house two doors along. They were both single mums, they each had a son aged seven. Taika and my nephew Stepan ...
Opinion: “As time passes, knowledge of the circumstances of the August 2016 outbreak will fade and its immediate impact will be lost.” This statement is from the 2017 report of the Official Inquiry into the Havelock North campylobacteriosis outbreak. The then National-led government established the inquiry after the outbreak left ...
Opinion: Nicholas Khoo looks at two key points in the high-stakes foreign policy pact debate – and asks if NZ can engage with as little drama as possible. The post Where to next for the Aukus ruckus? appeared first on Newsroom. ...
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A challenge for any taker(s)
How is 3Waters going to improve water provision/discharge?
Locally speaking, having Maori at the table with the other decision makers, ways of thinking such as wairua and taonga will be represented.
thats wonderful….now 'how' is 3 waters going to improve water quality/discharge?
By replacing failing pipes.
So replace the pipes….the solutions are unchanged by oversight/governance.
The oversight/governance bit is getting the failing pipe replacement to go ahead.
"The new regulator, Taumata Arowai, took over as the drinking water regulator on 15 November 2021 when the Water Services Act 2021 came into effect"
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/environmental-health/drinking-water
Regulation gets the replacement to go ahead.
Seems to be part of 3 Waters.
"Is Taumata Arowai involved in the Three Waters reform programme plan to transfer water assets from councils to four new entities?
No. Taumata Arowai is not involved in the creation of new regional water entities or the shift of functions from local authorities to them. Our role is to regulate rather than to determine any future changes to the water supply delivery system. We’ll work with drinking water suppliers in whichever form they take."
https://www.taumataarowai.govt.nz/news/frequently-asked-questions/#:~:text=Is%20Taumata%20Arowai%20part%20of,Government's%20Three%20Waters%20Reform%20programme.
Decisions, action and enforcement will be through a lens other than a BAU, exploitive, financial one.
and the pipes will still have to be replaced (and paid for)
.
Incisive question … you're flushing out the self-indulgent Romanticism of the well-to-do, intellectually-superficial, prestige-enhancing Pakeha Woke … with a simple question on fundamental practicalities.
You’re one of a distinct minority here firmly grounded in reality & clear-cut principles of right & wrong … as opposed to ostentatious displays of virtue-signaling & bombastic moral posturing.
When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary.
PS Was the use of the word ‘flushing’ inadvertent humour?
Your entire post was a massive pose. You sir, are a massive poser.
Three waters will have monitoring facilities so we stop poisoning locals. It will have financing so we can replace pipes also poisoning locals. It will have coordination so boundary lines don't become places of inaction by two governing entities.
It will have oversight so prissy little capitalist whiners who think the commons are theirs can't get their grubby shit shaped thieving paws on it. That's really upset the apple cart. The thieves are claiming they're being stolen from – right? A pack of opportunistic thieving Trumpesque white whingers terrified of everything non-white.
The gist of anti-3 waters is racist, pathetic, ill informed, nasty and ultimately stupid. They parrot each other over talk back and rarely have an original thought. Their plan – be against it!
Fucking old people – holding everything back terrified of their own irrelevancy.
One thing about getting old though – if you have a shred of self-awareness you look back with chagrin at all the stupid things you used to believe.
Yes my biggest 'doh, what was I thinking moment' is to remember while at Auckland Uni marching with people up Queen Street in opposition to Mayor Robbie's light rail.
I don't regret my pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro women anti Vietnam marches or cheering on Maori groups who have marched in support of their rights to fairdealing in land issues etc.
Suffice to say over the years I have got more radical than less. Growing old does enable some of us to reflect and to want a better world in place of a non working BAU.
Plain naivety is my biggest regret RL. It enabled a handful of dishonest and deceitful individuals to use me to the hilt and then leave me to carry the can for their own conduct. I learnt a huge amount about human behaviour but oh dear… at what a cost. You can't undo the past.
I am an oldie. Bring on Three Waters is all I can say.
The resistance in my set of friends is coming from a younger set 40-60.
It comes complete with a built in set of anti PM, anti women and anti Murray views. I am sure they are waiting on the steak knives before advertising these as a useful addition.
Someone, possibly Churchill, said, if you're not a radical at 20 you haven't got a heart; if you're not a conservative at 40 you haven't got a head.
Wrong! At least in my case. I've got more radical the older I've got!
Bring on 3 waters, for all the reasons D.B. mentioned above.
Incisive question?
How is BAU going to improve water provision/discharge?
I worked in the water supply industry for 8 years. From the outset I have been firmly in favour of the operational amalgamation but against the political privatisation.
Operationally water supply is both capital intensive and cash flow poor; which means the existing multiple agencies struggle to attract necessary funds to upgrade and maintain, but also to retain the necessary engineering and tech skilled people in the industry. This results in stupid duplication of effort, systems and an asset base that is a patchwork of different technologies all at different stages of their lifecycles – which in turn gobbles up scarce cash. Amalgamation leverages scale to sustain more consistent funding, better planning and more effective use of people. In this respect 3W would be a good thing.
At the same time the ethno-nationalist interpretation of the ToW that elevates the iwi elites to a superior class of citizenship has demanded that all water in New Zealand belongs to them. Unfortunately this govt has bundled the two in a manner that is both deceitful and manipulative.
Deceitful because they are underplaying the manner in which 3W effectively passes control of the asset that belongs to everyone, into the hands on an unelected, race-based elite. There is no electoral mandate for this.
Manipulative because while it tells us that only Maori have the moral capacity to manage water supply, everyone else being racist if they object to this.
Ummm no political privatisation?
At least none that I can see.
Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure.
If there is no right to privatise why do you infer that the proposal includes this. Scaremongering really.
As several posters have said over the past month Maori with their view of water as a taonga are probably the least likely to privatise. Or are you referring to the other holding agency?
Reading your post again it has much exaggeration. BAU is not working. Let us face that fair and square.
To keep doing this the way we always will ensure that we have a BAU non workable situation for the years ahead.
How many times does this have to be illustrated before people believe we need to do something. A progressive democracy should be just that not mired in anti type BAU.
The system needs a massive kick start, a new view and what ahead cannot be worse than what we have had, with unfishable and un swimmable rivers, lakes and streams, sewage discharges, high levels of farm chemicals, over use in terms of extractive water rights.
I am picking it will be better with the new set-up, Probably way better than the most conservative pro pundits are picking.
This sentence embeds an assumption of moral superiority. The assumption that no-one else values water and wilderness. The assumption that somehow Maori are so unique that in New Zealand water can only be effectively managed by one minority ethnicity. Makes you wonder how the rest of the world gets on without such special people in charge.
The assumption also that 3W will give control of these vital assets to an elite group of unelected, unaccountable individuals. Which for all intents and purposes looks like a privatisation to most people.
Just replace the word Maori with say – Indian – in this debate and the absurdity of it all would be immediately apparent.
I do not want to unpick all your assumptions. It is simply red-neck and displaying an ignorance of NZ history to say you can replace Indian, Chinese French or whatever with Maori and this demonstrates racial overtones. Simply rubbish and utterly forgetting that NZ Crown (through HMQ) signed a Treaty with Maori back in 1840.
If you can demonstrate that this Treaty was also signed with Indian people or Chinese or French or, or or, then you might have a point. But it was not. Indian, French, etc come in the Tauiwi or Ngati Wikitoria ie with the Crown partner.
You are writing these on a basis that Maori have no right to have a Treaty that works for them
Let me unpick the steps
1 co governance is first and foremost a recognition and way forward to enable to recognise the rights of the other party to the Treaty of Waitangi. The Crown (HMK) is the other partner.
2 So having established the genesis is with an 1840 treaty we now look at the aspiration, beliefs of the other partner. In this we are fortunate in that the other party also shares the aims and concerns that lead to the concern about water in the first place. In the Maori belief system water is a taonga.
The Crown could have found that the other party was an extractive, water polluting, river damming people with that as a culture.
So first and foremost it is recognition of Treaty rights that this is a way forward to fix an untenable BAU.
Many who understand that two step idea
1 inherent rights
plus
2 untenable current situation needing fixing
have few concerns. After all it cannot be worse than what is happening now and we are lucky that our treaty partner's views about water, that they have held steadfastly are now acceptable to a wider group. This wider group can see that a more measured and less extractive approach may make it better for all.
For extra reading you should read about the the NZ Maori Council cases that stopped the sale of NZ land back in neo lib days,. They mounted a treaty focused argument that was upheld by the Courts. Thankfully we are not the slow learners we were in those days.
Your confidence in the largely untested Maori entity as stewards is all very well, but the record of stewardship in industries like fishing is not encouraging – Maori interests proving just as susceptible to the moral hazards of practices like slave fishing as the other players.
I have no confidence in the proposed structure of the 3 waters reform, which I would describe as lacking the appropriate constitutional safeguards. Labour want to gamble on an affirmative action with a resource that concerns everyone. Antidemocratic as well as profoundly unwise.
100% Stuart Munro
It's now 5Waters– the report back from select committee says Te Mana o te Wai satements can now also include seawater and geothermal water.
.
Yep … that's bang-on …
… although, if I remember my Critical Race Theory accurately, critiquing anything involving Corporate Iwi makes you a Cis-heteronormative transphoblic White Supremacist Neo-Nazi bigot suffering from White Fragility & White Man’s tears.
Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law. I think we can rely on that Great Totara, Shanreagh, to know what’s best for us all.
You are bang on the money Swordfish
I think you are having us on SW with the word salad much as I used to back in the 1970s/80s when we used to have arguments in our Women's Studies classes and introduce ourselves with as many phrases as we could.
I keep part of mine to sing out to others of the same ilk……
'Unreconstructed 1970s feminist …….'
"Bear in mind that anyone with even a modicum of Maori ancestry is eternally innocent & eternally virtuous and must be allowed to do as they wish at all times without any of those yukky rules, safeguards or law."
Except when they disagree, then apparently they are the sad self-hating products of colonialism. Independent thinking be damned.
"the largely untested Maori entity as stewards"
Did they bugger it up, pre-colonisation?
I hadn't heard. Please post details.
Maori – stuffing up the water, before we got here!
Appalling!
Well, it's a nice argument Robert, but the finger has been pointed at a few issues prior to Eurocolonization, including moa extinction, and Central Otago & MacKenzie deforestation. The main reason the Maori footprint was light was the same as it was for Pakeha for quite some time – smaller populations create less mischief.
Nor have contemporary Maori eschewed the problematic industries responsible for polluting already stressed waterways – which tends to suggest that their environmental piety is no purer than the European colonist's religious piety – poor or no protection.
Gosh, Stuart! First peoples, eating the easy stuff, not seeing the downsides – has that ever happened before???
Short-sighted aboriginals, eh! They never learn!
There are always some shortsighted ones, Robert. In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. In the balkanized nuclear groups of contemporary society and business however, the delay between the stimuli and the response has become too attenuated.
So we get nitrification, and eutrophication and anoxic rivers and ponds, and Government responds late, if at all. The body of society is damaged, like a sufferer of Hansen's disease, by the lack of real time responses. And on it stumbles, like the angel of the future, backwards into the great unknown.
‘Angelus Novus’ shows an angel looking as though he is about to move away from something he is fixedly contemplating. His eyes are staring, his mouth is open, his wings are spread. This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing in from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such a violence that the angel can no longer close them. The storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress. Walter Benjamin
"In band society democracies, the default governance system of nomadic groups, social mechanisms evolved that deterred freeloading off the environment. "
Let's study then, and learn from, these guys.
Now, where are our nearest examples…
It's been reported and reinforced so many times that Maori have a special relationship with nature and water. By inference, It's something that Europeans apparently don't have if you believe the talking heads in the media and Maori spin doctors.
Yet Europeans have manipulated water to serve us. They have made water drinkable and done other wonders. Things that are now taken for granted. Of course these manipulations of nature have sometimes created disasters and unforeseen problems. And it's these problems everyone seems to concentrate on ( and rightly so), and not the progress our nation has made.
"Yet Europeans have manipulated water to serve us. They have made water drinkable and done other wonders."
Water must serve us!!!
We must manipulate it!!!
Europeans made water drinkable!!!
Plus other wonders!!!
Love your work!
Water must serve us!!!
We must manipulate it!!!
No, of course we don't need to manipulate water. silly!
We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water. And we can tell others about our special relationship with water.
Lucky you have a long drop on your property, eh, son. That's means you are future proofed.
"We can pray over it. We can recount myths. We can make holy water"
Let's keep Christianity out of it, shall we; next you'll be claiming Europeans believe it can be walked-on, turned to wine, the sort of thing!!
I agree with your stance.
X Socialist was quite wrong to bring Christianity into it. I am hoping he is not going to bring other beliefs up & say naughty things about Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.
Both of these make very little use of water apart from water being used by domestic animals who are not in a factory farm situation.
Least-ways I have not heard of factory farming Easter bunnies and with the reindeer all having names it more or less rules them out of being factory farmed.
But I digress…….. much like X Socialist did.
''Let's keep Christianity out of it, shall we.''
Let's not. You need to read up on our history. Christianity was, and became, a very important part of European and Maori life. Water is part of Christian ritual. You also need to understand imbuing water with wairua was standard practice in traditional Maori society. Sometimes even Oriori was spoken to the water. The water quantity was not important – either a drop or a whole river.
I need to read up on our history?
Thank you for identifying my need, X. You are nothing if not considerate.
I found this from you, puzzling:
"You also need to understand imbuing water with wairua was standard practice in traditional Maori society."
You mean, they drank water?
I had no idea…
Of course I know about the relationship and the history, but pardon me as I obviously read sarcasm into the statement you wrote above, ie you were criticising a relationship not commending it.
Correct.
X is criticising the relationship between Maori and te wai?
Why?
Lack of understanding?
Racism?
Ignorance?
Pig-headedness?
I think the problem is Robert that if Maori claim they have a special relationship with water, then surely that opens it up to others to make the same claim?
I don't know what this means "a special relationship with water". Water is essential to every human being on the plannet. The "special relatiionship" claim is just articulating some belief system that some Maori and some Pakeha have chosen to believe. It is likely a spiritual belief, but as such cannot be proved or tested.
I just want the best, most knowledgable people to manage our water. And I want the ability to vote them out if they don't serve the people of NZ well.
https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/hey-presto-three-waters-becomes-five-waters
A lot of people likely won't read this link because it is from the Platform. That's o.k. but you are missing out a really good critique of whats going on.
Nope, they are avoiding reading rubbish from a Platform plonker. It is ironic that quite a few anti-Murrays here gravitate to that
pool of populist propagandafountain of wisdom.Agree with you, Incognito – The Platform is for plonkers. Home-base for the easily mis-led. Plunket, for babies 🙂
Do "Maori" claim to have a special relationship with water, Anker? Or do their words indicate that they have a more vital and lively understanding of water than most pakeha do?
I reckon there's some truth in the proposal that Tangata Whenua still connect with water in a way that pakeha have forgotten.
Well I have read it but nothing new in it. in fact for me it adds nothing. It is not a good critique of the proposal, nor the select cttee findings and neither does it examine good ideas/bad ideas, how things might or might not work…etc etc. So not even good commentary.
You'd be better to read some of the commentators on here plus read the select report itself.
The day Maori can do what Viktor Schauberger did with water, may be the day I take you seriously.
You mean, they drank water?
I had no idea…
No, I didn't mean that. Doesn't your RC give you TOW courses on Maori culture?
I have no idea what you mean by a more vital and lively understanding of water.
Vital and lively won't fix the pipes and organise the funding to do so.
What we need with water is science and a technological understanding of pipes
Husband is Maori. He has no more vital or lively understanding of water than I do.
But we both appreciate running water and toilets that flush.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/wellington-shouldnt-assume-bigger-is-better-for-local-government
Ok well here is another take on Three waters, co written by Peter Davis, who I understand is Helen Clarks husband.
I'll just note that of the five political parties in the NZ parliament, Te Pāti Māori has the most progressive policy on water by far. Better than the Greens. They say we should be able to drink water from our rivers, streams and lakes. I believe that they are ahead of the other parties because of cultural reasons ie Māori have a relationship with water and nature that transcends human use and includes respect for life for its own sake. There are lots of non-Māori that have this too, but it's not embedded in Pākehā values.
If we treat water as an inert substance separate from its environment and the rest of liver, there for human use, then we end up in the situation we are in now, with rivers so polluted that kids can't swim in them let alone drink from them. And we end up with infrastructure that is failing, because when we treat nature like shit we inevitably end up treating humans like shit too, who are after all, part of nature too.
And guess what? Science supports TPM’s position. For ecosystems to function, we need water quality in rivers to be higher than drinkable for humans. If we want the live that lives in rivers to thrive, it needs to be a higher standard. There’s no opposition between science and mātauranga Māori, except in how some humans conceptualise them.
So yeah, there are differences in the relationship with water.
(edited to had the science paragraph)
here's what you get from Pākehā thinking (and this is one of my concerns about 3 Waters). If the drinking water at the tap in cities and towns is causing ill health in humans, then you add chemicals to the water to treat that. You don't look at the source water and return it to its natural state. Once you have water treated at the tap end, you don't need to bother with things like the cows shitting in rivers.
Likewise, when thousands of people got sick from the animal pollution into the Hastings water supply, the response wasn't to change land management, it was to make sure that every rural and small town water supply was chlorinated.
I'm not saying don't chlorinate. I'm pointing to the mindset that allows us to turn water from something vital into a thing.
I've swum in many Otago and Southland rivers and lakes, and I can feel the vitality. It comes from connection with place. It won't prevent giardia or e coli, but loss of vitality will collapse whole ecosystems and the climate.
Eldon Best wrote about the status of water in pre-European tikanga.
https://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_14_1905/Volume_14%2C_No.1%2C_March_1905/Maori_medical_lore%2C_by_Elsdon_Best%2C_p_1-23/p1
Lordy!
"I have no idea what you mean by a more vital and lively understanding of water."
Understood. You don't understand.
"Vital and lively won't fix the pipes and organise the funding to do so."
Pipes are the answer, Anker? Here we diverge in our understanding of water management.
What we need with water is science and a technological understanding of pipes
"Husband is Maori."
OMG – I've always assumed you were male! Sorry!
"He has no more vital or lively understanding of water than I do."
I'm sorry to hear that.
"But we both appreciate running water and toilets that flush."
Toilets that flush…to where?
Victor? Designing flumes to carry logs, enabling the deforestation of entire mountains?
That Victor?
All post-agricultural human settlement had to deal with the problem of contaminated surface water. A few hundreds of people in local area might manage with some observational ideas that imposed separation of potable and waste water. But grow to the size of a town or city and such simple schemes become totally impractical and demand science based solutions.
Indeed the advent of modern water supply treatment, both potable and waste, in the 1800s was the driver of one of the greatest extensions of human life expectancies ever. Are you suggesting we unwind this, and revert to the ravages of cholera once again? I would hope not, but your unqualified claim above implies it.
If I was teaching critical thinking, I would use your comment as the classic example of the problem with extractive sound bite commenting out of context.
You took a single sentence out of a half dozen paragraphs where I was explaining a reasonably complex cultural situation, and then used that sentence to splain me about science despite my obvious inclusion of science.
You stated,
But you missed where I said this, a mere four sentences after the the bit you soundbited,
Doesn’t get much plainer than that.
When you start a comment with a premise like:
it creates a premise – that somehow water treatment is a bad thing. And despite acknowledging that it is necessary you then go on to femsplain to me about 'vitality'.
By sheer coincidence I've just finished watched this:
https://youtu.be/xoNZmgcuJHU?t=504
Decades ago I swam in these same pools, and I know the experience too. You do not have to have superior Maori genetics to understand the value of wilderness and truly fresh, mountain or bush fed rivers. That we have collectively allowed our lowland rivers to be compromised by uncontrolled dairy herd runoff and the like is a matter of widespread regret and concern.
But using this legitimate issue as a justification for a completely different and divisive ethno-political agenda is deceitful and manipulative.
While this is true the foundation behind Three Waters is the Treaty of Waitangi and whether the Crown, as one of the parties to the Treaty, needs to/has to abide with a Treaty signed in good faith all those years ago.
"Anti Murrays and those wanting to ensure that one of the treaty partners continues to be disadvantaged into the future will see it that way I am sure."
This repeated use of "Murrays" in your comments is bizarre.
On an individual level, it raises an ironic smile, because I have whanau connections with "the Murrays" who have a reputation for self-aggrandisement and questionable behaviour.
But you carry on.
Murray's from Matakana Island?
"Murray's from Matakana Island?"
Nope.
He's from Morrinsville.
Is that Murray Murray or Maari/Moree Murray who is mainly from Matakana or is it the one from Morrinsville. I always forget.
Any news from the deep South re Council?
Do you mean, am I reinstated?
If so, yes, I am.
I thought you were giving the incumbent a run for their money. Have I missed something? Did they stand you down. How Bizarre, as they sing…
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/music101/audio/2018793733/25-years-of-omc-s-how-bizarre.
I was talking to Molly…not a hillbilly from down South.
You're partial to the occasional ad hom, I see, X.
Admirable!
My feelings aren't hurt, X. I’m not cluttering the thread. No more ad homs is your choice; can’t understand why you used them in the first place. No need to cast yourself as a “waste of time” – all views are welcome here!
Further North, .
The repeated use is a nod to another poster who first used it here in a critique of the unlamented Wayne Brown et al suggested Three Waters 'reform'.
As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari.
My late mother (died 2010 aged 94) used to lament that Europeans in NZ were accepted as having good individuals and bad individuals but that neither good nor bad defined the race. For Maori on the other hand people did not accept that there were good individuals of Maori whakapapa and bad individuals of Maori whakapapa, only bad and that did define the race.
Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race.
"As it is one of the ways that NZers use to pronounce the very difficult (sarc.) word 'Maori' it seemed appropriate to use it in my critiques of the anti Three Waters crowd. I have another couple I could use if you are sick of 'Murrays'. One is Morie like Mo re another is Maari."
So, now that you've indulged your schoolyard repetition (such fun!), do you think you can rejoin the adults?
"Can you not accept that the actions of one set of connections/relations do not represent the race."
Yes. I didn't imply otherwise BTW.
Now you are inching towards reality, keep going…
If this is true, then what does "represent the race"?
Awaiting this answer. (Such fun! )
Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad. All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad.
Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself.
"Well the Maori race is neither all good nor all bad. Just as we don't class the European race as being all good or bad."
That's a Clayton's answer. Let's leave it for know, but perhaps I'll ask again and you'll have a more insightful response.
"All through this discussion there are thoughts that this Three Waters initiative is going to be terrible, co governance is bad and this is based on the stereotype of the Maori race as being all bad."
Do I really have to point out, this is your own unevidenced assumption? Many critiques have been given as to why people disagree with Three Waters and co-governance that have not suggested "the Maori race as being all bad ". I know you've seen them, because you reply to them.
Is your only takeaway from these exchanges that all who don't support this believe "the Maori race as being all bad".
(Be honest…. isn't that also your take-in to the conversation?)
"Re adults, I don't class as adult, people who choose not to pronounce common Maori words correctly including the name of the race itself."
OK… you mean unless it's you – playing schoolmistress. In which case it's all good.
Looks like the Parliamentary charade is continuing. The Water Services Entities Bill has been reported back to the House with minimal changes, Labour no doubt hoping the legislation now has the cloak of respectability.
But iwi interests will still have effective control of the resource, and if you control something you effectively own it, no matter what rights others have on paper.
Notable too is the inclusion in clauses 4 & 5 of the Bill of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Nowhere are these principles defined, but that is no doubt deliberate. Just make up the rules as you go along.
Strangest of all is the reference in clause 9A to a paragraph from the court case New Zealand Māori Council v Attorney-General. The Bill seeks to rely on an assurance allegedly given by Crown counsel in the course of litigation.
It is nothing but legislative word fog.
Are you the NZ equivalent of Rip van winkle and been asleep for two hundred years?…..All through my working life we have court cases/narrative on the clauses in the treaty, the differences in meaning between the English version and the Maori version. We have had occupations of land, we have had marches on Parliament. We have had Treaty Settlements where the Crown Treaty partner has been found to have breached the Treaty. But being asleep you may have missed this.
We have had demos at Waitangi about honouring the Treaty…..
In the 1980/90s NZ Maori Council, representing the other Treaty partner was able to stop the Govt ie the Crown or other Treaty partner in its tracks and force it back to negotiations during the neolib free for all bargain basement sale of crown-owned assets. I am not surprised that it is referred to.
Legislation these days usually has a clause that the legislation binds the crown and refers to the Treaty.
Are you saying that the changes proposed from the Select Committee/Govt did not go through?
For Rip van Winkle aka Hunter Thompson 11 (hopefully your Nom de owes nothing to Hunter S Thompson.)
New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney-General, also known as the "Lands" case or "SOE" case, was a seminal New Zealand legal decision marking the beginning of the common law development of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Court: Court of Appeal of New Zealand
Citation(s): 1 NZLR 641, (1987) 6 NZAR 353
.
Hit the nail squarely on the head … razor-sharp analysis, succinctly put … upsetting as that may be to the well-to-do Noble Savage Paternalists.
Childlike cheerleading for Corporate Iwi interests = as a signal to other wannabe elites of personal moral virtue.
You haven't responded about me being able to borrow your Dictionary and whether
I think having the dictionary will help trying to decipher your posts.
I don't think the dictionary will help you Shanreagh.
Understanding the meaning of Swordfishes words overall would.
From my point of view he is bang on as usual
You are coming across as dweadfully besotted, Anker!
I wanted to borrow Swordfish's specthal Dictionary, the one I referred to above
You see it is not just any old dictionary.
If I had a copy, I'd look up the meaning of "swordfish".
Already know the meaning of anchor.
Well we used the anchor to stop forward movement, or actually any movement on the yacht.
On another matter, I picked up our local newsletter and find that November it is World Pukarukaru or Jellyfish month. Climate change is meaning we see more Portuguese Man (men?) of War closer in and further south.
Sticks and stones Incognito.
Anchor, you missed the other discussion thread about the same link. Please keep up.
The jellyfish invasion has been happening for a while, Shangreah. The salmon farms have been swamped by jellies and don't advertise the events widely 🙂
Robert Guyton. Its true I admire people with the ability to think critically and call out what is really going on.
But I am also a nice person who likes to give credit where credit is due. Its not uncommon for me to acknowledge when I think people hit the nail on the head on this site (often this is Sabine and Molly. But sure Swordfish too and Stuart Munro)
But again I find rather than sticking to the arguements, there is an attempt to deride me. That's o.k. In my mind it speaks volumes about people arguements.
I admire your views and persistence on the Women's issues/trans issues.
I am surprised that you admire the current views of SF. Very different from those of old. Mainly I don't like the insults that surround the views…..people don't just have different views, the critique he/she mounts is surrounded by personal venom.
Weka has many good points one, is to look at Te Pati Maori for their views.
I was married to a Nga Puhi for some years. We were close but even so he did not share with me the points of his soul relating to water/land etc. It was a family thing, none of them did really.
Your husband may be the same
My cousins on the other hand are happy to share with anyone who has an interest. This comes from a long family involvement in Maori aspects due to location and upbringing.
@ Robert re the jellyfish……the articles had several foci re the jellyfish….one was that snorkelers in our Marine Reserve needed to be aware of jellyfish in greater abundance and earlier than in previous years. We used to get them after Christmas in Northern HB years ago often at the end of a long hot summer and in later years down here. They are here now, mid November.
The other article was from Boris Blue Cod who lives at the old bait shed at Island Bay here in Wellington. BBC set out the best ways of dealing with these stings. Gone is the idea of sloshing vinegar.
Splash lots of seawater on.
Apparently putting warmed seawater on followed by immersing in hot tap water for 20mins, elevate, put ice packs around and take pain relief.
Warmer water, more jellyfish.
They clog stuff up. Not their fault.
Thanks Shanreagh re the gender critical views. I know we are on the same page about this and I appreciate your contributions on GC stuff.
Re Swordfish. Well he has said on this site he is a "dead man walking" re his cancer. So I give anyone in this situation licence to say what they like (but that doesn't mean you have to) . I do wholeheartedly agree with him on issues such as the PMC, cultural elites etc. I really do.
I cop quite a lot of flack on this site. Its not easy. But there you go.
Interesting about your first husband. My husband the same re things Maori. I have been called racist (not on this website, another one). I don't consider I am, but the definition seems to have changed. I think CRT says all white people are racist.
I see it as being about having different ideas.
I don't like three waters for much the same reason Stuart Munro has articulated. I see it being something Labour has been very sneaky about. I understand you likely disagree with this.
I am very concerned about the dampening down of science in this country. Men can be women if they so declare. And I think it was reprehensible what happened to the Listener 7. I think they are bang on. And I understand Mason Durie didn't think Matauranga Maori was science either, nor did he want it regarded as such.
But from my point of view, its not a racist thing that I don't think MM
is science. I am also extremely concerned about the education systerm and the rates of school attendance in this country.
There's a dampening down of science in this country?
I'd like to hear more of your view on this.
It is worse than that…it is deceitful because the Government have inferred that 3 Waters will reduce the cost of any necessary infrastructure upgrades…patently false when they are proposing to add an additional layer of bureaucracy and the borrowing mechanism will be at a premium to direct Government funding.
If, and it is by no means a given , we attempt to improve the quality, delivery and discharge of (largely) metro water services the costs will be greater under 3 Waters than they otherwise needed to be….however I will suggest here now that the expense and impact on everyones lives will render any great improvement unachieved….and perversely it will be the financially challenged that suffer the most, and Maori are over represented in that cohort.
And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters.
This policy has little to do with 'fixing' water and a lot to do with politics
"And it may be worth considering that nitrate leaching is possibly the greatest threat to our potable water supply…and that is slow, expensive and energy hungry to fix….and unaddressed by 3Waters."
That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath!
"That's for the farming industry to fix, not "3 Waters" – don't hold your breath"
Thank you for agreeing that 3 Waters is an exercise in futility…and at increased cost
I didn't. 3 Waters is not supposed to address the nitrate issue – did you think it was?
And yet all those cows in the ads…and all the 'this'll sort the farmers out rhetoric'…so, yes Robert, im afraid you did
There were ads?
I didn't. But don't let that stop you, pat, attributing.
And don't be afraid – give it your best shot!
Lol…a gift for you Robert, one you desire greatly…..Zyzzyva.
"Zyzzyva is a genus of South American weevils, often found on or near palm trees. It was first described in 1922 by Thomas Lincoln Casey, Jr., based on specimens obtained in Brazil by Herbert Huntingdon Smith. Casey describes Zyzzyva ochreotecta in his book Memoirs on the Coleoptera, Volume 10:"
Thanks for your gift, pat.
I'm embarrassed to own that I've missed your meaning though.
Perhaps you might explain…
Oh dear.
Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it.
"Well if Pat thought it was going to do this why don't we just roll it in, put the review of the RMA into Three Waters, ETS, Climate change generally and call the new entity 'Everything' and be done with it."
What did 'Pat think' Shanreagh?…certainly not what you attribute.
Looking back you may have caught me with the/your sleight of hand regarding nitrates. You berate the concept of three waters for not fixing nitrate problem when it was not designed to do this.
So I did mis-attribute, sorry, as I was caught out by this fast strawman argument.
Did you want Three Waters to have an implicit role on nitrates leaching into water ways?
Times are hard we’ve lost or losing our sense of humour but wasn’t there the slightest little snigger about the concept of a huge big entity called ‘Everything’?
I am hoping though that 3 waters may have a role with community water (under council controls now) supplies that are tapped into by irrigators. There are water supply schemes that were set up by Govt and sold? to local owners decades ago. These are not caught by the legislation, as I understand.
Over stocking and over fertilising is not caught by Three Waters per se though if run-off containing an over supply of 'nutrients' gets into catchment areas it may need to be removed. Some of the catchment areas around Wellington are strictly no go areas for the general public, or if you do go there are strict conditions.
At the risk of councilsplaining you, isn't that for councils to fix?
Central govt, industry, councils, local communities, international movements. Sure. Those guys.
👍
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-11-2022/#comment-1921823
Where did I say any one of those things he accuses me of. Not even the courtesy of a link from him to back up his point.
To highlight his worst point. When did DW become a Russian propaganda outlet? Or Open Democracy for that matter?
Let me reiterate my point – the war must end. A negotiated peace is the right choice.
Wrong Post! This is Daily review 14/11/2022, not Open mike 12/11/2022.
I'm not going to go read all the conversation between the two of you. I've asked you both to stop throwing personal abuse. Focus on the politics. Had you not been throwing personal abuse, I would have focused on Stuart's comments alone. But my first priority is to put out the flame war.
So I can lie about people then?
I suggest you step away for a while and sort yourself out. You know that’s not what I said. I can tell you that if you try and wind me up I’ll just moderate. First rule of moderation, don’t be a dick to the mods.
I cannot help but feeling that, if dairy farmers are going to treat our waterways like sewers, they should be obliged to build oxidation infrastructure.
This is known technology – there's no mystery about what happens to waterways if they don't.
Robert, In reply to your question about my comment “there is a dampening down of science:
Molly posted a few months back about the science curriculum at High schools. While developing the geology curriculum the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t. Molly also gave another example of her son, I think in his engineering degree covering MM the learnings being completely unscientific (please feel free to correct me Molly is the details aren’t correct).
the listener 7 wrote a very respectful letter to the listener stating MM is important, but it is not science (a view Mason Durie agrees with). One of the 7 is Dr GarthCooper, who is Maori and has taught Maori med students Kaupapa Maori. Dr Siouxie Wiles and Shaun Hendry said it was hurtful and racist what the 7had written. Dawn Freshwater vice chancellor of Auckland Uni backed Hendrix and Wiles up. One of the scientists lost part of his teaching role due to this, Wiles and Hendry complained to the Royal society, who announced on their website page an investigation of the 7 who were members of the society would be held. There was an international outcry from sciences such as Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coune (Chicago university) and at least one other notable international scientist in support of the 7. Three months later the Royal Society backed off.
in my own field, a number of years back at a seminar onMaori approaches, I was told my evidence based approach was an example of colonisation.
Gender ideology and queer theory have infiltrated academia and we now have policy decisions and even laws resulting from this ideology, Judith Butler a key person in queer theory postulates the biological sex is a social construction. This bat shit crazy idea (from the States) has wormed it’s way into our culture and lead to denial of basic biological facts.
these are just a few examples. . Understand that Richard Dawkins is coming to Nz next year, so if you are interested you may want to attend his lectures.
btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it. Like Christian’s are entitled to their views
"the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. (This would be a great assignment for a mindfulness class, but science it ain’t."
Anker, I would suggest that direct observation of phenomena, using eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc. is EXACTLY what the scientific method entails.
I wonder if you might consider and respond to this question: does everybody have the same relationship with water, do you think? I have friends who surf and their relationship with salt water is very different from mine.
" I would suggest that direct observation of phenomena, using eyes, ears, fingers, feet etc. is EXACTLY what the scientific method entails."
I would suggest that's where it STARTS.
It is part of the whole – not the whole itself.
It's usually followed by:
1. a theory regarding that observation;
2. a design to test that theory;
3. experiment using that design;
4. if required, adjustment and repetition of 1-3 until a reasonable conclusion can be made;
5. Conclusion.
"the Maori advisor added that students could stand in the water on rocks to see how they felt. "
So, that's the observation instruction.
What's your guess as to the scientific theories that will result?
Why do you suggest that Maori suggest only standing in the water and on the rocks?
What makes you think they don't encourage theorising, designing, testing, adjusting, repeating, concluding?
I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you might imagine that cultures other than our own might follow a process such as you described.
Robert. The initial comment (months ago) was a report of a conversation I had with someone that was involved with producing the new updated high-school curriculum.
When the advisors where queried about the some of their curriculum inclusions this was the response. I can't surmise anything from this, and neither – frankly – can you.
"I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you might imagine that cultures other than our own might follow a process such as you described."
Don't understand this sentence at all.
But – "other than our own?".
Am I not part of the Maori culture then Robert?
Is my approach to knowledge following observation heresy?
A repetition of the question to Shanreagh:
How are you defining the Maori race, and their culture?
Are you confident your definition is not limited in scope and inclusion?
The Geological Action of Water.
https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Stout33-t4-body-d2.html
Perfect.
I've been trying to determine what it is that really bothers me about assigning extra meaning and significance to Māori contributions to understanding, art, culture etc, and I've come to the following view:
It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning.
It's another form of racism, but one that makes those that perform it feel great.
I (like many others) have a sincere and deep appreciation for the many aspects of Māori culture, art and perspectives and give it due value. It doesn't need the condescending fripperies and mangled reinterpretations currently assigned to meet current political criteria.
So, I find the mental gymnastics and tortured applications of Māori cultures, understanding and arts to be a patronising dismissal of the existing integral value and quality.
Unfortunately, this acceptable version of racism is becoming more and more familiar.
Molly – can you give us an example of a Maori "contribution to art, culture etc." that has had "extra meaning and significance" added to it?
I'm seeking to understand what you are meaning by your comment.
@Robert Guyton
"I'm seeking to understand what you are meaning by your comment."
Robert, I admire your conversation work and lifestyles choices, but find your approach to dialogue on here to be disingenuous so I'm not going to spend much time answering your question, as I know you have participated in many of these discussions and are equally capable of doing a search when memory fails.
The new biology curriculum has been discussed before:
https://ncea-live-3-storagestack-53q-assetstorages3bucket-2o21xte0r81u.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-07/CB%20Learning%20Matrix%20%20.pdf?VersionId=ym7ZMD.EKtzLAbjX3rbpa4xONDW1IqhZ
Elizabeth Kerekere redefining Māori culture and knowledge for self-promotion and political purpose:
https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/handle/10063/6369
@Robert Guyton
…. conservation work…
"Robert, I admire your conversation work and lifestyles choices, but find your approach to dialogue on here to be disingenuous "
You find my "approach to dialogue here to be disingenuous"
DISINGENUOUS!!
What the..???
Disingenuous? Really??
Hugely offended, me.
You don't trust the veracity of my comments??
Please explain. I do not understand your comments.
Robert Guyton…
17 November 2022 at 10:19 pm
Join the crowd. Now I have been told
I find this incomprehensible when none of my posts offer to tutor them or counsel them……When I futilely, I find now, try to explain my views on reading yet more grinding anti Maori posts and the affect it has on me I am told this is a political blog
I think they have decided to 'stick it' to anyone who tries, in any way shape or form to disentangle or make sense of their arguments or seek clarification.
@Robert Guyton
"…DISINGENUOUS!!
What the..???
Disingenuous? Really??
Hugely offended, me."
The outrage almost sounds sincere (although you may want to work on it with your drama teacher a while longer. I think there's someone here at TS who could help you when they recover from their swoon).
Robert, it's just a personal opinion. I have no doubt that most here find you erudite and witty, a charmer of the first degree.
If TS had a popularity contest, I'd probably still vote for you.
"You don't trust the veracity of my comments??"
Didn't say anything about your truthfulness, more your technique. You enjoy it, others appreciate it. I just weigh up the energy costs of engaging and what is produced when I do, and often make the decision not to bother.
Example below:
"Please explain. I do not understand your comments."
Your declared lack of understanding is often a precursor to a request. Given your propensity for making requests, and then ignoring the content of answers in order to focus on an irrelevance – on this thread – at this time, I'm just going to say "No."
fwiw, I can't tell if Robert's response to your comment that he is being disingenuous is real or playful.
Also fwiw, I don't understand what you meant when you said,
and was going to ask for clarification.
I thought this was going to be a really interesting aspect of the conversation, to tease out how people see Māoridom in such different ways.
It seems like the conversation has become heated in places, and sometimes threads go on to long, so not really expecting a response. But my own response was along the lines of it's not 'extra' meaning, it's just meaning. Same way that I relate to most cultures. To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture.
But it’s also possible I didn’t understand what you meant 👍
I’m open to having this conversation at another time too.
@weka
I like Robert. I disagree with him on this topic, but find he plays devils advocate more than anything else, so don't actually get much out of taking time to interact with him.
As you said, he comes across as playful, but these are issues of governance, democracy and policy and these discussions should be able to take place with seriousness.
I posted above in response to Robert's similar question, but he didn't reference it when he responded. So, I'm not going to waste much time there.
"To remove the validity of this meaning suggests (to me) that Māoridom should be viewed through a specific and probably conventional lens of the dominant culture."
How do you reconcile the fact that today, Māori have links to the both the present and the past, the colonised and the coloniser, the first settlers, and the more recent settlers. Questions such as this have to be clearly answered if we are changing the forms of ownership and governance.
If they don't make sense, or hold together under challenge or scrutiny, this approach should be abandoned.
The heated aspect doesn't bother me. I try to be clear, without equivocation or making judgements about those I am interacting with. Also, happy to just disagree.
However, I have work to get on with. As you say, another time.
If what don’t make sense?
I agree that issues of co-governance need to be explored in depth. What I see in these conversations over time on TS is people not understanding each other (both sides). My wish would be that people slow down and make more effort to get what the other person is saying, rather than trying to push one’s own view. The eternal dilemma for TS (from which I am also not immune) ☺️
The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?
Hi weka. My question was genuine. From Molly's statement, it seems she feels that where added meaning and significance is assigned (not sure by whom) to say, Māori art (not sure if that art in general or a particular piece) then whoever did that, did so because they believe the art has n intrinsic value, and only gets some following their own contribution.
I remain quite puzzled, as you can see. Perhaps you found more meaning than I did?
I didn’t understand what Molly meant either, and had pretty much the same question.
(it wasn’t your question I was unsure about, more your later response to the idea that you were being disingenuous. Having been watching from outside the conversation for a while but certainly not reading all of it, it looks like people are increasingly talking past each other and starting to retrench into positions)
@weka and @Robert Guyton
Robert asked a question @ https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921602:
"Molly – can you give us an example of a Maori "contribution to art, culture etc." that has had "extra meaning and significance" added to it?"
I answered it @:
https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921618
"The new biology curriculum has been discussed before:
https://ncea-live-3-storagestack-53q-assetstorages3bucket-2o21xte0r81u.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-07/CB%20Learning%20Matrix%20%20.pdf?VersionId=ym7ZMD.EKtzLAbjX3rbpa4xONDW1IqhZ
Elizabeth Kerekere redefining Māori culture and knowledge for self-promotion and political purpose:
https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/handle/10063/6369"
but because I had answered similar questions before, in conversations with Robert thought that this repetition was unnecessary, as searching previous comments would have answered his question. (I am also aware, that no matter how many examples are provided, they will be ignored – as previous ones have been or explained away using the most patronising rhetoric).
Instead of replying to the examples, Robert (once again) drifted off into a dialogue about the comment rather than the examples. It is a familiar pattern in conversations with Robert.
All I am trying to do is patiently point out to all those who are telling me what I am, and how I think, and what I value, that actually, they are incorrect.
That's all.
Unless of course, they can bring themselves to admit that when they speak of Māori, my Māori perspective is not wanted and doesn't meet the grade, so I am not included.
At least that would be honest.
weka – "The connections for Māori between past and present seem normal to me. Isn’t that true for all peoples?"
Of course.
There are a lot of things that are true for all peoples. Including the fact that they don't all think the same way, or hold the same ideas, or believe in the same things, or place differing values on the loss of democracy even if it appears to favour them.
The fact that so many on here, speak not for themselves, but for all Māori with such certainty, is to me an obvious form of racism.
I know many of say you don't understand, or can't comprehend but that is because your idea of Māori has definitive boundaries and understandings and limits the ability for comprehension when other viewpoints are expressed.
And that, is one of the many reasons why the current co-governance proposals should be abandoned. The attribution of that certainty, that has not be defined, determined or agreed upon.
You "answered" my question, Molly, by offering a series of links???
Hmmmm…
Underwhelmed.
I feel an answer should be compiled by the person, not addressed by the provision of links.
@Molly,
Co-governance has almost nothing to do with all that cultural stuff.
It's a Treaty partnership that obliges the Crown to include Māori representation. Which you apparently resent for reasons that are not clear.
The scientific method involves observation, but more than that. It is the establishment of facts through testing and experimentation e.g for the covid vacinnes, medicines in general. Maybe you would be interested in listening to Richard Dawkins when he comes.
Re water, everyone has a subjective experience of water that varies. Some people get pleasurable experienes with it (surfers, swimmers). I remember David Parker talking at a Labour Party conference about swimming in rivers and how important that was to him. Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance. They are entitled to this, but it has no place in public policy. Same with your surfer friends (btw I haven't heard surfers elevating themselves as the people who need to be in charge of water).
Fact: Human beings need water for survival.
"Some people have beliefs that imbue water with special significance. "
All people should have this. If they haven't, we have gone wrong.
Exactly though some view water as an extractive resource, something to be used, utilitarian.
Some of the most beautiful paintings and poetry speak of water. Looking at the force of huge waterfalls or feeling the sea and tide on one's feet on a turning tide.
But people with those feelings or who may water as part of their creation stories are to be disregarded as being of no benefit.
It is strange therefore when reading of different ways to communicate that story telling is being used as a 'new' way for retailers etc.
Some cultures regard water in a manner that elevates the water to a place above the prosaic, the status of commodity or receiving environment for waste. Other cultures do not. Some cultures regard water as sentient and possessing of subtle qualities such as the ability to communicate with humans; personhood, in fact. Other cultures dismiss such regard as nonsensical.
There are cultural differences to the relationship between people and water.
Weka this is a very profound question. It is very common in many families to have connections between past and present to want to know about one's family and learn things about the past. Genealogy is a fast growing hobby.
But not for others.
Then there are others who believe the past can tell them nothing of value for today and the future.
In part of my family every Christmas stocking has an orange in the toe. This is to remember the trip ashore by my gt grandfather in the Canary islands on the way out to NZ in 1884 with his children. He brought back bananas and oranges for his young children, oldest one 11. They had never seen oranges before.
My Gt Grandfather was on the very last boat out to the ship, by which time my 11 year old grandmother was very worried that she would be left to take the four of them on to NZ by herself.
So some would have traditions and others would not.
Tolerance either way is the aim.
Anker,
Do you accept that people can do that process of observation, and testing to establish facts in their home garden? eg what is the best condition to grow tomatoes?
I think you call it special significance because you don't share the belief. To me it's not special, it just is 🤷♀️
And if humans could live by reductionist facts alone, you might have a point. But we can't. Humans are utterly dependent upon healthy water ways and cycles for survival and wellbeing. That's what this whole fight is about. The people who think water is an isolated thing and the people who understand that water is a complex being that flows through all of life on the planet.
When we treat water as an isolated thing, we perceive is as being able to come from anywhere. We don't need rivers or lakes, we can just take the most polluted waters and distill, filter or refine them. This world view is how we end up in situations whereby we contaminate the water table. This is happening as we speak in south Canterbury, and the solution being proposed isn't to stop polluting the waterways with industrial ag practices, it's to build an industrial denitrification plant to remove some of the nitrogen before it gets reticulated to people's houses.
In that situation, humans need water to survive. But what we will find is that it gets harder and harder to access clean water to survive because we have conceptually separated water off from the rest of life.
The people in south Canterbury who have bore water instead of reticulated water won't have their water cleaned up a bit by the council. If they can afford it, they can put in some filtration on their property, again this will remove some of the nitrates. If they can't afford that, too bad I guess. They can also drive to town and fill up plastic water containers with water from outside the contaminated area.
Can you not see how insane this is?
there are also boil notices in places because of other kinds of pollution. Add to that, the the pollution of the waterways and now the water table will kill aquatic life.
This is why I don't trust the Pākehā dominant culture to either know how to fix the problem, nor to prevent worse from happening. NZ should be up in arms that we are at the point of contaminating aquifers.
The reason we're not, and the reason we allow this to continue, is because we, culturally, believe water is a thing separate from nature and a resource to be used at our convenience. Māori cultures generally do not believe that, they believe that water is life. Integrating Te Tiriti into water governance is one of the few options we have left now.
afaik there is nothing in what I have just said that is incompatible with science as a key way of knowing for humans. Science is necessary but on its own it's not sufficient.
Yes agreed Weka. Being aware of science, its benefits, it ways of working in no way stops us from seeing if there are other good practices in other cultures.
It is all education. We can learn from all of it.
There are several practices involving the use of Poroporo.
First
https://teara.govt.nz/en/artwork/26966/poroporo-plant
Second
https://www.kiwiherb.co.nz/about-us/herb-profiles/poroporo/
Maori knowledge (by observation and shared record) of the uses they made of Poroporo were shared and that is the reason that it was investigated & used as a constituent for birth control.
In Australia indigenous people recorded that plunging into a particular pool with Ti tree all around where the leaves had drifted down to the pond seemed to improve various skin complaints.
'Tea tree oil is distilled from the leaves of the Melaleuca alternifolia plant, found in Australia. The oil possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, and antifungal properties. A person can treat acne, athlete's foot, contact dermatitis or head lice using tea tree oil'.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/262944#risks
Observation plus science.
No reason to deny the benefit of either.
I agree with you, science is necessary, but not sufficient. But science as a discipline needs to be ring fenced and preserved. Here is a link about the scienctific method.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/steps-of-the-scientific-method.html
Science has allowed our civilisation to make extraordinary advancements (of course this has come at a cost in the terms of global warming). But of course it was the climate scienctists who warned us decades ago of what was going to happen if we didn't slow down carbon emissions. So while many of us may have made the observation that the climate is changing, we would need more than that to verify that is the cause and also to test out theories as to why that is. Observation would never be enough.
Human beings of every culture are entirely dependant on water for survival. Agree. Yes its true I don't share the belief that water has special significance for some people. That is about meaning and belief. But people are entitled to their beliefs.
I like to keep things simple. An example for me is when it was discovered that Wellington water had not been flurodated for a few years. I think there was a quick tweak to the law that allowed the DG of Health (Ashley Bloomfield) to order councils to fluordate the water. Job done. Not everything is that easy to fix of course.
So in the city I live in, there has been a chronic underspend on water infrastructure. Other parts of NZ have councils who have done much better than my city. So the solution to this problem is to find a way to fund a massive project of updating water and waste pipes. So how do we fund such a massive undertaking? According to Peter Davis (Helen Clarks husband) et al, the most straighforward way is to issue government bonds. Sorry don't have a link for this article, I read it ages back. But it makes sense to me.
In my opinion, Including Maturanga Maori in the science curriculum is doing a diservice to both forms of knowledge.
Nope, you got that wrong.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/wellington-shouldnt-assume-bigger-is-better-for-local-government [comment by Peter Davis]
@ Incognito
Although the thrust of the article agrees with my position it contains much circular argument…eg.
'They began with road maintenance costs, which vary considerably across councils. Some spend $50 to $100 per resident per year on roads; others spend up to $650.
But the difference in costs is not driven by council size – or at least not directly. A lot of low-population councils are geographically vast, with large roading networks to support. Population density matters, as does the amount of driving."
This demonstrates (proves) nothing…certainly not whether population density is a deciding factor in providing adequate or sustainable service….indeed it dosnt even ascertain whether either of those conditions are met.
If this is the quality of our governance then we are truly without hope.
@ pat
What’s that got to do with Peter Davis and bonds as per Anker’s assertion??
A fair comment. Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits.
Whereas Māoritanga holds certain things as sacred that we have long since profaned in our heedless pursuit of Money
I would say neoliberal capitalism that grew out of the big cultural shift that was the birth of modern science. Descartes, Bacon, and so on, the dudes who decided that matter and spirit are separate, and that humans are somehow distinct. The regressive nature of the churches in the West at that time didn't help.
We could trace that back to the advent of agriculture perhaps. Or as Douglas Adams put it, coming down from the trees in the first place was a bad idea.
Whatever it is, we are fortunate in NZ to have Māori presenting us daily with a different way of thinking and knowing.
"Our Pākehā dominant culture is soaked in neoliberal capitalism and thus continually fails to solve social and ecological problems. The profit motive, extraction, and externalising costs are all antithetical to the wellbeing of people & planet & democracy, yet this culture is incapable of reining in these destructive habits."
Our modern culture…roblogic.
Of which we all play a part. As a Pākehā, I have never voted or made life choices that support a neoliberal capitalist approach to people and the plant. Are you sure you can lay accusation at the feet of all Pākehā? Are you also certain that no Māori has participated in the growth or development of a neoliberal capitalism?
Or when you speak of Māori, is it an abstract concept, devoid from all those with Māori whakapapa?
I'm talking about broad cultural phenomena not individuals.
Religion, culture, economics, politics are all fair game for generic criticism. Every system made by humans has its flaws.
@roblogic
So broad culture, has mechanisms for representation. ie. elections, democracy or some other form, even if it is imperfect.
Where are the mechanisms to ensure that representation is actually achieved by the co-governance model?
And who are they representing if not people?
Found in 2 minutes of googling. You should try it.
.
https://www.threewaters.govt.nz/news/bill-1-the-water-services-entities-bill/
Means what it says, 'dominant' is an important qualifier and as roblogic says not individuals. In a Pakeha dominant culture other cultures play a minority role. I suspect that this is despite all the efforts by this govt and some others to 'honour the treaty' and to do right by it, for its partner that is also in a minority.
Very succinct and well put Roblogic.
REsponse to Incognito….opps my mistake
Water is life. Generally the human body can survive about 3 days without water.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325174#role-of-food
“water is life” strikes me as a Western, reductionist view though. My explanation above, when we say that water is necessary for humans to stay alive two things happen,
Compare to “ko wai ko au, ko au ko wai”. Which can be translated in a reductionist way into English, or it can be taken as a doorway to understanding that we are water, where water is part of nature (ie the rivers, lakes, streams, marshes, oceans, rain, snow and so on), there is no inherent separation. Water as a relation.
Inherent in the concept is the relationship between humans and water as a being that by its very nature isn’t just h20, but is the river, the lake, the marsh and so on. The whole thing.
Yes Weka. I agree with this
My point, not very well expressed, was trying to move those who regard water just as an extractive resource of no meaning except for making money, to perhaps say that 'as humans we need water, & a whole heap of water and this water needs to be safe and clean'. So we move them along the scale from, something to use until it is all gone, to a quarter/eighthway house that says:
if I am to continue as a human it is more important to use water for humans than for making money.
(don't underestimate the difficulty of doing this with the prosperity gospel here in NZ
The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth)
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-know-about-the-prosperity-gospel/.
We are not going to persuade these types of people by a mix of arguments, only one that messages straight to their back pocket, ('wallet may get slimmer') or their health ('you might die of a waterborne disease'). We will not persuade them by the simple philosophical truths from the observed natural world and its interlinkages.
This is the same reason mind changing in human rights by appealing to a fair go for all individuals is lost on these often same people. So we have education, laws, policies in workplaces backed up by a willingness to use performance penalties so that breaches in the workplace are dealt with. So that people know that their ability to derive money and status may be interrupted by their breaches.
Catering with messages like these does not mean we reduce it to just human focussed except for those whose belief is this.
Just as we are never going to persuade those to whom Maori art, observed natural linkages, wisdom, use of Rongoa, use of myths and legends to reinforce messages are just emblems or tokens of very mild interest from a so-called less devolved culture.
‘It is the assumption that Māori contributions are of no value without all these re-interpretations and extracted meaning’. From Molly, gives the flavour of this view and dismisses any point about having to translate/interpret because we are not all bi-lingual Maori/English.
We waste time doing trying to educate. (Sacha's point)
We need to counter them (accept we cannot persuade them to a different view) and built up interest, or at least remove the idea that this change is threatening, in those who are willing to face a different future in the hope that it is better than the one we have now.
Anker wrote:
"In my opinion, Including Maturanga Maori in the science curriculum is doing a diservice to both forms of knowledge."
Where then, Anker, do you think it should sit?
Or do you believe there is no place for it in our education system?
All pretty much accurate, Anker. (Three of the previous conversations can be found here).
"btw the idea that Maori have a special relationship with water is a belief, not a scientific fact. Those Maori that do hold that view are entitled to.it."
Agree.
the idea that Māori don't have a unique relationship with water is also a belief, not a scientific fact.
"The idea that Māori don't have a unique relationship with water is also a belief."
I'm sorry, weka this does not make any sense in terms of the discussion.
Since when did governance models move away from the secular and into the spiritual and undefinable?
Since when does "secular" mean "ignoring all cultural or spiritual values"?
It merely means neutrality or no official preference. Not the abolition of religion or culture. Our values always inform our politics.
This secular/spiritual/undefinable is very much like the counter arguments put forward when groups wanted to do a Karakia at the start of meetings…,back in the early 90s.
I am so sad we still seem to be mired in this. It was a non event then and it is now. Those of us involved in potentially difficult discussions usually welcomed as much guidance, good fortune and blessings that came our way. We also found that the more extended meeting protocols had a benefit in that we 'met' each other. So often in high powered policy type meetings people just rushed in and out. People took it for granted everyone knew each other, they often didn't.
Do people really not know now how far we have come, how much we have benefitted, especially in govt circles from an involvement from Maori?
Usually legislation/policy will help with direction so that the undefinable becomes defined by legally or by use. When you hear in the lands field iwi members talking of their relationships, passed down from ancestors, with stones, streams, paths etc and hear the stories and in the health field about Rongoa Maori there is a richness. Also a sense of calmness, even though discussions can get feisty. Not saying that Pakeha don't have a relationship with their Turangawaewae, they do.
This is some kind of an internal dispute across NZ university departments and staff. Its unlikely that anything to do with logic is relevant here, but if you can understand the groupings involved and their relationship to each other sense can probably be made. Richard Dawkins appears to have stumbled into it, thinking it was a relevant discussion of epistemology of science.
There appear to be some departments of history and sociology in NZ who are writing alternative histories of science which prioritize Maori understanding of scientific ideas. This goes a bit off the rails when your taking mythology and interpreting a genuine discovery of modern scientific concepts from it (which Dawkins objects to) because there is too much extrapolation beyond the evidence, though this is ultimately about history of science, not what is science anyway.
But as with other kinds of inter departmental dispute you don't see what the actual problem is from the arguments made. This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it.
"This became most apparent to me recently when it was discussed on RNZ and the two NZ academics countering Dawkins didn't dispute anything he had said while still claiming they disagreed with it."
That appears to becoming a standard for academic discourse at present.
The first rule of 'Fight Club' is …
Interesting Nic. I also read a Spinoff article with a woman defending Maori scientific discovery in the context of Dawkins visit. Nothing she said changed my mind. It is the dumbing down of science.
We will never know what you're referring to if you don't provide a link, so that we can read the same article, form our own opinion, and discuss this with you here, if we so wish
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/14-11-2022/busting-the-myths-about-matauranga-maori
I am not referring specifically to the article other than to say it is a competent placing of the differences and similarities of Maori observational techniques and records and European observational techniques.
I left TS for a break after reading the posts from Anker & Molly. I felt intuitively that both were on the wrong road and pulling our examples that were not relevant. In a word after much thought I felt 'colonised'. I through upbringing, family connections, job choice share much of the wonder at Maori observational techniques as I do with the work of Fibonacci whose observational techniques moved maths from Roman derived to Arabic derived.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-man-of-numbers-fibona/
He drew on Arab/Hindu maths.
My point is that nothing in the world that we observe or describe or do, is static. We are as much able to draw on any culture on the world as we are our own.
I have never had this 'colonised' experience as a lily white Pakeha but felt that this is what is happening to me in the comments in both these posts.
What must it feel like to those who study, who receive comfort and mana from a Maori world view.
So for some reason (lost on me*) we need to compare observational methods brought here from Europe with that used by Maori. So to determine whether there is a Maori observational method/science we use the European method to determine this. So to determine the simialrlites and differences we use one of the methods to guide us. This is truly weird in my view.
No mention of ethnographers who might be able to compare the systems of indigenous peoples, we just 'find' Maori science does not look like the European method so we dismiss it. No need to study that we say.
Can we not accept that Maori have a different set of skills, meaning and views from European and other cultures.
They just have and there is value in looking at these from the standpoint of learning. Of course in all learning, if it is successful, we take meaning forward into our lives.
To learn these in NZ is of particular benefit as we seek to find out how Maori relate to the world, & NZ, as our indigenous people. While we may study say Mayan culture/science and learn from it, our next door neighbours, spouses and children may be Maori. Surely we would want to know their beliefs, what makes them tick.
Can we not accept Maori science/geography etc is just there. It exists. Maori exist in our communities and have as much right to their views as die hard scientific methods proponents.
Extending this further Maori have as much right to have their views considered, in the operations of govt as anyone else. In fact looking at the treaty you could probably say they have a right enshrined as one of two treaty partners.
In my view knowledge is knowledge where it comes from. To try to look at it/evaluate it through the lens of European culture is shortsighted at best and 'colonising' at worst. There is room for both.
I doubt I have captured my unease properly/competently but I feel the denigration still.
I’m trying to be as agnostic and dispassionate as possible and try judge comments on their merit and strength of arguments. This is not easy when there are so many things going on simultaneously and people are not necessarily on the same page talking about the same stuff and in the same language with the same concepts and meanings – and I’m not even talking about te reo Māori vs. English and the diverging interpretations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
I thought of expanding this by using an illustrative example and analogy of translating Shakespeare into te reo and what ‘claims’ could be made about the nature of that result in terms of culture, meaning & understanding, and appreciation, etc., and if and how it could or would affect the contributing components – cultural emergence, which happens all the time and everywhere without even realising because it is actually such a natural process (for humans). But I don’t have enough time and this is a political blog, and perhaps not the most appropriate place for those kinds of musings and discussions, which are or should be a-political and non-partisan.
@ Incognito…
17 November 2022 at 5:47 pm
This is fascinating topic. It would be great to get feedback from audience/actors presumably bi-lingual on the emotions and cultural issues evoked. Undoubtedly having two contexts to draw from makes it a richer experience. Much the same listening to the language rather than reading the subtitles when watching foreign made films.
Othello and The Merchant of Venice have both been translated in Maori.
My partner is a polyglot. When speaking the language he 'becomes' a person from that country in language and often mannerism.
Different cultures have different responses or views from ours.
"I felt intuitively that they (Molly and Anker) were on the wrong road and pulling out examples that weren't relevant"
I think that means we don't agree with you.
"I felt colonised" . I am not sure what that feeling is.
"Can we not accept that Maori have a different set of skills, meanings and views from European and other cultures".
I agree. But I also agree with the Listener 7, Jerry Coyne and Richard Dawkins that Maturonga Maori is not science.
Well expressed, Shanreagh.
And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them.
Too much to expect you to recall that this 'woman' was an academic. Professor Ella Henry director of Māori advancement at the AUT Business School.
DEGREES
Auckland University of Technology, Auckland, New Zealand31 Jan 2008 – 20 Jul 2012
University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand28 Feb 1991 – 12 May 1995
University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand1986 – 1990
She possibly may have a better handle on the issues than you or me. She definitely is better qualified than I am.
Doesn't mean that the article referenced makes a convincing argument though.
All you've done is listed her qualifications, and attempted to shame Anker by inferring that she is too stupid to understand.
Why didn't you state what you found particularly compelling, or ask Anker about what she had issues with?
Your pattern of discourse lately is becoming less informative, and more performative.
FWIW, I read the article, and also thought it was a load of bollocks. And, before you ask, no, I don't want to waste time discussing it with you.
Why didn't Anker summarise the article. She did not bother to even link to it, name the person who was the author, just referred to her as 'a woman'.
My frame of reference with the qualifications was to put paid to the statement of 'a woman' made by Anker, you know any old woman. I was to say that this is not in fact any old woman but one with a Phd and holding a Professorship. On the face of it qualified to write on this topic.
I made the point that I was not going to match any of my qualifications up against hers. Hers is a voice worth listening to from the point of view of scholarship.
I have no inkling of Anker's qualifications and made no mention of these. You have misunderstood my point on this. If Anker's qualifications match hers then fine. Mine certainly don't. I made the point that her qualifications may mean that she has a better grasp of the topic.
There is a difference between scholarship and opinion. We here have many and varied opinions, they are not scholarship, though the authors of topics have clear, researched referenced topics to get us going.
As to the word 'performative', I have seen this too often lately and so conclude that this is a new buzz word and therefore essentially meaningless.
As to 'performative' and performance though, I do lay claim to being a tree and a squeaking rat (as an adult) in a pantomime of Dick Whittington and a chorus girl in another pantomime. Then I've been in a women's barbershop type chorus and in the chorus of the Messiah probably half a dozen times since age 13.
Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults.
@Shanreagh
I was going to let you calm down after the above embarassing comment (which you had ten minutes to delete after posting. Have really you got such delayed self-awareness?):
But you're back because you just can't help yourself.
"Perhaps 'performative' could be added to that dictionary owned by Swordfish that I want to get hold of. I've mentioned this before. He might share it with you so you can get the latest in meaningless insults. "
Yes, I noted that comment, and previously refrained from responding… but since you brought it up…
https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-14-11-2022/#comment-1921154
"When you've finished with your Dictionary of Current Insults and Big Long Words used in Unusual Combinations I'd love to borrow it. I think I could use words from it to develop essentially meaningless political commentary."
Shanreagh, you have no need of any help in this respect.
Thanks for all of that Molly.
I agree with you, the article was a load of old bollocks. For me it is more evidence that scholarship standards are declining in this country.
@Anker.
No problem.
Would've contradicted you if I felt persuaded after reading the article, but I didn't – so here we are:
Two women with opinions.
Oh, the colonising we could achieve if we continue in this vein!
Molly…
17 November 2022 at 9:22 pm
I wrote my 'embarrassing' article that you have quoted from at 1.55pm this afternoon. I had experienced a profound feeling that I likened to colonisation instancing an attempt to compare Maori observational and learning techniques using an Euro-centric lens. This is what I see now happens to many cultural aspects of our Treaty partner.
To resile from this at 9.00pm, some 7 hours later I would have had to contact Mods etc. But I do not resile from the views. I have always felt that much of the arguments against Maori culture were based on misunderstanding, often wilful misunderstanding.
Looking back to this morning I see I may have been radicalised online, on TS shortly after reading yours and Anker's continuation of unsympathetic posts. I was very disturbed by them.
Not by swift and sure logical rational argument as one would think that radicalisation happens but by reading plodding, 'One nation, One race' theories.
This was a profound feeling for me. You mock it, call it embarrassing.
@Shanreagh
"This was a profound feeling for me. You mock it, call it embarrassing."
I'm sure it was a profound feeling for you.
I do not mock it.
I am entirely serious: you should be embarrassed for referencing colonisation in such a way.
But it appears you are not.
Ah, well… t'was obviously a forlorn hope.
There is nothing embarrassing about that post or the one I made at 1.55pm. It had several comments but you have not mentioned any to take issue with instead referring to and mocking this happening of mine.
You do not understand the modern meaning of ‘colonisation’ if you cannot grasp what I am saying. You are using it I suspect to mean events harking back to Britain and its colonies etc.
I used it advisedly, with care and with a knowledge that something had happened to me that had happened to others, that I had empathised with previously. I was not using it to be disrespectful of those today who still experience the effects of colonisation. (Strange that you should be caring about my use and presumably feel I, as a Pakeha, was a bit cheeky laying claim to this modern feeling? )
@Shanreagh
This is a political blog, where people express (sometimes opposing) viewpoints.
I have not engaged you as a personal tutor, nor am I your therapist.
I will not return to this thread.
You carry on if you need to.
Good grief, I would never want to be your personal tutor, and neither would I want you to be my therapist. You lack empathy. Empathy is needed on a political blog.
Sacha…
18 November 2022 at 8:57 am
And some people are so deep in our colonised culture that they do not understand what this means even after you point it out. Wasting our energy on them. (from Sacha)
Exactly.
Got it in one. Thank you for reading the post of mine, it was a profound experience for me to feel. I am grateful.
Imagine if you are Maori and you will find this framing and running comments is not limited to water but to
I can see how people feel colonised, like smothered, then it also feels as if every time you try to comment the ground rules change.
Why is there a need to smother rather than letting people just be?
If we accept that Maori have a different world view on water, land etc.
All human knowledge starts with observation and the ability to abstract patterns from it. All societies – not just the Maori – did this and have legacies of cultural knowledge that can be found everywhere. As Anker, Molly and myself have repeatedly stated – there is no reason to discount or diminish this legacy. Embedded in this knowledge are gems of information and insight that an open and curious mind will often usefully re-interpret in light of modern understandings.
But scientific method took this deep tradition of observational sense making a vital step further. It introduced a series of formalisms and methods that delivered determinism and repeatability, which in turn enabled the mass development of modern materials, technologies and engineering.
This is why claims that MM is the equivalent of science are so fatuous. There are no Maori Maxwell-Heaviside Equations ; General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, or Standard Model . There is no deep and formal body of Maori Mathematics that underpins all of these ideas and much more. It was not that Maori, like pre-Industrial people everywhere, were not good observers of their world – but geographically isolated, lacking a written language, access to energy, and a secure economic continuity – they simply did not get to a Scientific Revolution. That being the state of the overwhelming record of human history.
Nonetheless humanity collectively moved toward modernity over millennia of slow, patchy progress, with many crucial historic contributions from many cultures. That it was Europe where this progress came to a focal point during the Rennaissance and later the Industrial Revolution, is entirely an accident of geography and historic circumstance. It was always going to happen somewhere, sometime – and was most likely to happen in a part of the world that was both populous and well connected, socially fluid, yet sufficiently stable, and had easy access to coal, metals and minerals. It could have happened 2000 years earlier during the late Bronze Age, but they missed out on the easy access to coal – Europe in the 1600 – 1800s however ticked all the boxes all at the same time. And this changed everything.
The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history.
Well described, Redlogix. Yours is a comprehensive description of a significant portion of the modern world.
This though:
"The only people who think this has anything to do with white supremacy, colonisation or racism are resentful ideologues who at best have only a modest understanding of science and its remarkable history." is a puzzle. You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation. Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?
"You seems to be saying there is no connection between the advance of science and the world view it creates, with white supremacy and colonisation.
So, the basis of this is nothing to do with the Treaty of Waitangi?
It is about the "colonisation tool" that science provided "white supremacists"?
"Do you feel then, that those cultures that have colonised most successfully, could have done so without the benefits of science, and that those who practice white supremacy would still claim supremacy if they from a non-science based culture?"
What do you consider successful?
If we are talking a successful colonisation – wouldn't the most successful ones involve genocide and elimination of any record of previous peoples?
(There are instances of this occurring in the past pieced together by scientists, but not recorded in the oral histories and traditions of those that replaced the original people.)
It wasn't science that aided those colonisers, it was the propensity for violence.
The competition for resources is reduced by many of the applications of scientific knowledge, reducing that impetus for genocide and colonisation.
@Robert
Apologies for not responding sooner. You ask a perfectly reasonable question.
Elsewhere I have made the case that all pre-Industrial societies were compelled by the limits of photosynthesis to expand their territories in order to thrive. Hence what Molly has described as 'a propensity to violence' that drove the Age of Empire.
By the 1600's the Europeans were at least 100 years ahead of everyone else in terms of technology and political sophistication, and this combined with an age old habit of empire drove one last impulse of colonisation across the globe. The resulting cultural collisions were both tragic and inevitable.
As colonisers encountered indigenous cultures everywhere there was a considerable dismay on both sides; the new arrivals were often disturbed by what they saw as squalid, backward lives, racked by superstitions and violence – while the local people had their sense of the world turned inside out, losing both identity as a people and their values and traditions trampled on. Even with the best motives imaginable – this was always going to be a traumatic collision.
And in attempting to explain this highly visible European dominance it was perhaps understandable that many would reach to the idea that perhaps white people were naturally superior by breeding. After all they were very familiar with selective breeding livestock for improved characteristics, and their social hierarchies were still dominated by hereditary family dynasties and intense social class structures. (As were almost all pre-Industrial societies.)
With the benefit of a century of science in a wide range of field from genetics to geography, from psychology to philosophy we now understand that these explanations for European dominance invoking racial supremacy were profoundly incorrect – but neither should we rush to judge our ancestors who lived in a completely different intellectual landscape than us. The history of humanity is littered with once powerful bad ideas that have long been discarded.
And to underline Molly's last sentence – the very process of science and industrialisation also undermined the core driver of empire. It was no longer necessary to expand territory to become prosperous; instead access to knowledge, educated people, stable rule of law governance, stable commerce and the ability to trade on fair terms have become the signature themes of an astonishing explosion of modern prosperity and human development our ancestors would find indistinguishable from magic.
A national body free of vested interests with the teeth to stop discharges of nitrogen-rich wastewater would be an improvement.
A scientist says Waimate's drinking water nitrate contamination could be linked to recent changes in land use, including wastewater discharge from Oceania Dairy's factory in South Canterbury.
Since August, 615 residents using the Lower Waihao Rural Water Scheme's water have been warned against drinking tap water due to high nitrate levels.
The Waimate District Council previously suggested flooding in the region was to blame, and Environment Canterbury thinks it is unlikely the dairy factory is a factor.
But University of Otago public health specialist Dr Tim Chambers said: "It looks like the Oceania Dairy Factory could be playing a part."
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/478670/scientist-s-dairy-factory-concerns-over-unsafe-drinking-water
In New Zealand our drinking water standards say that the maximum amount of nitrate contamination allowed in our drinking water is 11.3mg per litre. This is based on the World Health Organisation limit necessary to avoid blue baby syndrome.
But there’s growing evidence that other health impacts occur with nitrate in water at much lower levels.
International studies have shown a link to increased bowel cancer risk at only 0.87mg/L of nitrate in drinking water. That’s one thirteenth of New Zealand’s current limit of 11.3mg/L.
And a new study found that at just 5mg/L, nitrate contamination in drinking water can increase the risk of a premature birth by half.
https://www.greenpeace.org/aotearoa/story/nitrate-contamination-and-drinking-water/
Why this reform? After all, the water coming out of my taps is (still) drinkable, or at least I haven't been told otherwise, and I'm certainly not going to waste electricity boiling it. Plus the various storm/wastewater drains here seem to be doing their jobs.
Still, my local city council has indicated how they intend to spend some of that lovely lovely 3Waters money – sounds a bit 'woke' ("We fight the woke…"), and a little too tangata whenua for my liking, but live and let live.
Some water infrastructure and public health experts claim that significant investment is required to maintain, if not enhance, the provision of water services in Aotearoa New Zealand. Maybe the proposed 3Waters amalgamation is flawed and won't deliver good value for money, but (for it or agin it), it is a way to channel the dosh, and maybe get some economies (and expertise) of scale. Tokyo has 37 million residents.
Heck, with that many NZ water service leaders and professionals able to spare time to attend, it's a wonder Kiwiland has any water worries at all.
Bottom line (for me): the 3Waters initiative is one way to improve our ageing water infrastructure, and it has progressive (or frightening, depending on your PoV) treaty partnership elements. In order to test whether it's too progressive, implement it sooner rather than later. If it subsequently proves unworkable, e.g. those 'bloody Maaris' start gouging unearned profit (they're learning) and increasing my costs [user-pays costs are OK – I don't use much water], then I'll consider voting for a party promising repeal. IF.
The special operation is going well.
President Vladimir Putin proposed to deprive acquired citizenship for "military fakes" and discrediting the army. Such amendments were made to the draft law on citizenship adopted in the first reading, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the text of the document.
https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2022/11/13/putin-predlozhil-lishat-grazhdanstva-za-diskreditatsiyu-armii-a26337
google translate
There is part of the/your problem in comprehension (which surprises me as you are usually an on to it poster)
This is far from the almost sneering ref to 'affirmative action'.
This is far deeper than this. It involves whether or not NZ as a constitutional entity respects and delivers on a Treaty signed in 1840 and abides by the rule of law that governs us all. If we, as the Crown, let 'honouring the treaty' go there are any number of International laws/bodies that will remind us.
I would like NZ to keep moving forward in its race relations, abiding with rather than having our country taken to an international court of some sort, or even the Supreme court here in NZ so that we (the Crown) are forced, in the glare of publicity to back down.
There is precedent for this. NZ Maori Council took the Govt of the day to court during the time of asset sales and won. (As far as land was concerned this was to the private relief of many PS who were working in this field) So our treaty partner was able to stop part of the sale of land during a time when nobody else could.
And more profoundly, good people/nations abide by the rule of law and know when it is the right thing to do.
Two parties signed the Treaty HMQ England now HMK NZ, and Maori. Do you think we need a referendum on whether to abide by the rule of law? Do we need a referendum say on the metes and bounds of our diplomatic efforts with China, Taiwan, Asia generally? How about a referendum on the type of seal to use on new roads? There has been some grumbling here in Wellington about the type of seal that was used on Transmission Gully (noisy) I reckon that would be a good topic for a referendum.
But a referendum on whether to abide by a Treaty or the rule of law……nah. Silly idea.
Treaty activism is all well and good, but the legal fiction only goes so far. Britain made a number of similar treaties around the same time, and they were boilerplates, or translations of boilerplates.
I didn't ask for a referendum – I merely want the power to vote out the Maori stewards of the 3 waters, should they prove to be as corrupt as Max Bradford, and steal that critical public resource.
I've seen no sign of an oversight or audit mechanism – which is irresponsible.
There were a number of oversight mechanisms, I thought, that came forward from the select committee process.
Hunter Thompson above says the bill was reported back with 'minimal changes' that, with a lack of time to look myself, I took as meaning they did not go forward. He of course may be thinking audit and oversight ramifications were 'minimal' whereas I thought/think they would strengthen the bill.
As much as I do not like the electricity reforms of Max Bradford I do not describe him as being corrupt any more than I would describe those in the Labour Govt who signed up to the neo lib reform coming out of Chicago as being corrupt.
Giving effect to treaties, no matter how they are written, whether boilerplate or not is based on settled law/precedent, subject to judicial oversight and in some cases international legal over sight.
much as I do not like the electricity reforms of Max Bradford I do not describe him as being corrupt
His electorate were not so forgiving – they were not able to send him to prison, but at least they could throw him out.
"Max"!
We should have known!!!