Lessons for NZ Labour?

Written By: - Date published: 7:02 am, June 10th, 2017 - 159 comments
Categories: labour, uk politics - Tags: , ,

Fair to say that UK Labour exceeded (most people’s) expectations. It’s a remarkable result that has buried Blairism, reinvigorated socialist principles and the political left, defied the Murdoch media, and badly damaged the tories. In short, it has reshaped the political landscape of the UK. Not bad Jeremy, not bad.

Much of the success was built on the youth vote. Give the young something to vote for, that’s an easy lesson. Strong left wing policies are not necessarily electoral poison, that’s another. Cooperate with your allies. FPP still sucks.

Campaigns matter.

What else? What can NZ Labour learn from and use?

https://twitter.com/lmlauramarsh/status/873020487852544000

https://twitter.com/musab_ys/status/873005723432751104

https://twitter.com/jjpalethorpe/status/873079163308998656

https://twitter.com/MacFinlay/status/870853173103140864

159 comments on “Lessons for NZ Labour? ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 1
    10 June 2017 at 7:24 am

    Turn left Labour!

  2. Ed 2
    10 June 2017 at 7:46 am

    Turn left.
    Campaign on policies.
    Use social media.
    Show integrity.
    Offer an alternative to neo-liberalism.
    Return to socialist roots.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1
      10 June 2017 at 9:51 am

      +111

      It’s so simple and yet Labour and even the Greens seem to be scared of doing so.

      They forget that the nation didn’t want neo-liberalism in the first place.

      • Siobhan 2.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:37 am

        You either have a ‘right on’ moral and political compass with a vision for a truly comprehensively fair and equitable economic and social system…or you don’t.
        NZ Labour and Greens are all about “winning’ and their perception of what that involves.
        We shall see where that gets them.
        If they don’t win this year then who knows….maybe Labour will decide to return to their roots and start living up to their name…

      • Ed 2.1.2
        10 June 2017 at 1:16 pm

        Scared.
        Sums it up.
        It’s a job for them that why.
        Not a calling.

    • Jenny Kirk 2.2
      10 June 2017 at 1:00 pm

      Ed says :
      Turn left.
      Campaign on policies.
      Use social media.
      Show integrity.
      Offer an alternative to neo-liberalism.
      Return to socialist roots.

      I say :
      Labour under Andrew Little HAS turned left
      Is campaigning on policies, IS using social media, Andrew Little does show integrity, and he offers (with our policies) an alternative to neo-liberalism.
      Labour HAS returned to its socialist roots.

      Just have a look at Labour’s announced policies on the NZ Labour Party website.
      What more do you want ?
      Maybe you need to take the blinkers off !

      • Ed 2.2.1
        10 June 2017 at 1:17 pm

        I don’t see any taxes rises for the wealthy.

        • Craig H 2.2.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 1:40 pm

          Doesn’t mean it won’t happen once the review into the tax system is complete.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.2.1.1.1
            10 June 2017 at 4:00 pm

            But the OP’s whole point is that you should be brave enough to actually state such a policy if that is what you believe in – not try to hide it behind a proposed review.

            • Craig H 2.2.1.1.1.1
              10 June 2017 at 8:36 pm

              As noted by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, who probably knows a bit about politics, it is unwise to announce intentions of increasing taxes during an election campaign – best done as part of the Budgets.

              More to the point, the actual policy is to have the review and then take the proposed changes to an election.

              • Louis …
                11 June 2017 at 1:11 am

                Smart wise thinking. Surprised there are some that still cant see that.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                11 June 2017 at 2:26 pm

                I am not completely against the politically careful review / change approach, but in fact I don’t think there is a need to gather more information here. We have ample evidence of gross inequality, including in the tax system, and the better move would be to simply announce policy to do something about it, in my opinion. If it is communicated well (as both Sanders and Corbyn have done on this issue), the public are not necessarily as anti as people fear.

                • Craig H …
                  11 June 2017 at 8:28 pm

                  I was at the regional conference in 2015 where the tax review policy originated, and it started out as a CCT as per The Big Kahuna, and a Land Tax, but was switched to a review to allow a full review and decisions from that. I think the main reason for the change was that the CGT had done very poorly, so rather than go into an election with potential tax changes, the consensus was that it would be better to review the entire system first.

        • red-blooded 2.2.1.2
          10 June 2017 at 1:47 pm

          But you see tax cuts for the wealthy suggested by the Nats. Plus, policies like the property speculation tax and the end to the tax advantages for rental house owners are tax rises aimed at the wealthy. And they’ve said there’ll be a tax working party to look at how/where to raise tax revenue. Perhaps they could be bolder and announce a lifting of the percentage to be paid in the higher tax brackets, but they’ve certainly indicated a direction.

      • Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 2.2.2
        10 June 2017 at 3:09 pm

        I just listened to a speech by Andrew in ChCh and it profoundly depressed me!
        Neoliberalism with a smiling face! There was no Jeremy Corbyn vision for a better, a more equable society, just more of the same with a gentler touch.

        This was at a meeting of the troops – we didn’t need to know the minutae of what Labour was going to do about the economy and education – what we needed was a vision, a dream if you like – something worth fighting for – and we didn’t get it!

        • Louis 2.2.2.1
          11 June 2017 at 1:13 am

          Yet others have had the opposite reaction from you when they have attended his meetings,

      • adam 2.2.3
        10 June 2017 at 5:17 pm

        Simple put Jenny Kirk, if what you said was true, Ed and others would not have to write their list.

        So as a wonk, who actually takes an interest. Labour has not turned left, becasue their economic policy is still as hard right as ever.

        Just to back up my point, labour stuck at 30% in the polls, becasue no ones else believes they have turned left either.

        • Louis 2.2.3.1
          11 June 2017 at 1:36 am

          If anything from the US and UK elections have taught us is that polls in general are wrong and unreliable.

          • adam 2.2.3.1.1
            11 June 2017 at 2:09 am

            I dislike polls, but labour has been on or around 30% for 3 years. So I’m comfortable with that one being a good representation of a liberal party out of touch with the electorate.

            I think what the polls are telling us is people are sick of the radical center, and their hand puppets telling us what to think. But hey Louis keep your head in the sand, it’s your right, no one will stop you.

      • John 2.2.4
        10 June 2017 at 6:22 pm

        Jenny, I am so confident Andrew is going Socialist I am voting for the Greens, after being a Labour member since 1986!

        • Louis 2.2.4.1
          11 June 2017 at 1:09 am

          Well done, but remember to get the Greens in government you do need Labour.

      • Korero Pono 2.2.5
        10 June 2017 at 9:41 pm

        Jenny Kirk it saddens me to be the one to tell you this but Labour are anything but left, they are not socialists and they aren’t winning votes. Labour has a lot to learn.

        • Louis 2.2.5.1
          11 June 2017 at 1:04 am

          Labour has been winning in local government and by elections.

          • Korero Pono 2.2.5.1.1
            11 June 2017 at 10:34 am

            And yet your response to my comment concentrates on one minor detail of my comment, whilst ignoring the fact that the Labour Party are not left, they are not socialists – I will add that their policies continue to support the status quo of failed neoliberalism. As to my comment that Labour are not winning votes – ah a few thousand meh, in the mean time they continue to ignore a demographic that could give them the numbers they need to form a government – but sadly Labour continue to miss opportunities in favour of policy aimed at trying to gain the vote of centric minded voters – you know the ones who currently favour and vote National. As I said Labour are not winning votes, from what I can tell they are still polling below 30%, a less than 5% point increase from their abysmal 2014 election result. I wonder if party membership numbers are are still on the decline too?

      • Louis 2.2.6
        11 June 2017 at 1:02 am

        I see that, but there are those that dont want to.

  3. Ed 3
    10 June 2017 at 7:50 am

    Jonathan Pie
    Socialism strikes back…

  4. Marcus Morris 4
    10 June 2017 at 7:55 am

    There are huge lessons to be learnt from Jeremy Corby’s campaign. Firstly a simple and alternative message of hope and genuine socialism and secondly an engagement with the younger generation using the social media they understand and are familiar with. That strategy has “trumped” the vitriol of the Tory controlled press . The Labour catch phrase was also excellent. “For the many not the few”. Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn, messages of hope -inspirational. In this country can we build on this momentum.

    • Bill2 4.1
      10 June 2017 at 10:33 am

      All good points. Sadly, I’m not young anymore so can’t comment on whether there is a message getting to them and whether they’re getting the message. There’s definitely some good stuff happening around TEDx, life hacking and social entrepreneurship but this may be quite isolated.

      I did talk to a young person the other day and mentioned that we need to disrupt the urban planning process because the housing situation is criminal and he said something to the effect of “oh really, is there a housing problem? I don’t really watch the news”. I almost choked on my hors d’oeuvre!

      My view is that we’ll need a crisis before we get a big shift, i.e. it needs to get worse before it’ll get better.

      [Hi Bill, we already have another regular Bill here, can you please choose a user name that is a bit different, to avoid confusion? thanks – weka]

      [have changed it now, but feel free to pick something that suits better – weka]

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 10:44 am

        My view is that we’ll need a crisis before we get a big shift, i.e. it needs to get worse before it’ll get better.

        I agree. It’s unfortunate how so many won’t do a damn thing until they’re personally affected.

      • Brendon Harre 4.1.2
        10 June 2017 at 10:48 am

        NZ needs the equivalent of Jonathon Pie. Someone doing short interesting videos from a progressive perspective that young people can share on social media. That would educate and give hope to young people.

        • David Mac 4.1.2.1
          10 June 2017 at 11:55 am

          I agree Brendon. Most people under 30 are bored by politics, they just don’t care. Humour is a great way to get cut through. To reach that group the character has to funny first and the political message secondary. Pie would be funny if he was a compere for the professional cycling tour. Same with John Oliver, entertaining and funny first, the message 2nd.

          They don’t read newspapers, watch the news on TV or listen to spoken word radio. Corbyn got good traction because he packaged his message up into sound-bite size pieces for their political goldfish attention spans.

          Provided it’s funny with that 18-30 age group (being despised by the 50+ set has worked well over the years, from Elvis to the Pistols) it will get cut through.

          An in your face character like Pie….How about a self obsessed, selfie taking, work experience cub reporter for Maori TV. Their 75% competency with Te Reo could carry an ongoing gag theme. Maybe the cultural offence ice could be too thin..

          “Fooooo, you guys have got your car looking lovely, is that a little fireplace in the ashtray?”

          “Nah, we hangi chicken nuggets in there, want one?”

          Nahhh, too much Billie T James cultural cringe but yeah Brendon, I agree. A good way to get to people that are crap at getting to the polling booths. Dress the message up in humour.

      • weka 4.1.3
        10 June 2017 at 10:48 am

        Please see the moderator note on your comment above, cheers.

    • Nope 4.2
      10 June 2017 at 10:53 am

      Respect due to Corbyn’s campaign, and to Bernie’s, but let’s be clear that neither of them have actually won elections. The Republicans still rule in the US, and the Conservatives with the DUP in the UK.

      • roadrage 4.2.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:53 am

        Indeed. Kensington and Chelsea did not go Lab because the left won the argument but Tory voter anger angst for brexit. LAbour got some cut though where its alternate was clear and directed at current woes.

        Take the crap water announcement. Labour says it will wavy hand limit cows. No qualifies, no obvious checking reaction, a poor policy. Clearly state farmer have had it soft, regulations are not being enforced, and good farmers will back Labour to kick the butts of bad. I.e divide your opponents constituency. Instead Labour attacks all farmers good and bad, and worse looks like its a cap them party. Back track hard now, huge own goal.

        Labour just hates taking the fight to National. Party vote Green already.

    • dukeofurl 4.3
      10 June 2017 at 10:54 am

      Where was the genuine socialism in the labour party manifesto ?

      Corbyn wasnt running for President of Britain. The party maifesto was much more centrist

      There is even a couple of mentions of their ‘Fiscal Credibility Rule’ and Balancing the Books
      To maintain good fiscal health, we will have a firm rule in place to guide all our taxation and spending decisions. Our Fiscal Credibility Rule is based on the simple principle that government should not be borrowing for day-to- day spending, but that future growth depends on investment. It was designed in conjunction with world- leading economists. It also means we are committed to ensuring that the national debt is lower at the end of the next Parliament than it is today.

      Labour will therefore set the target of eliminating the government’s deficit on day-to-day spending within five years.
      http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/manifesto2017/economy

      There seems to be a lot of projection going on by those that haven’t read the party manifesto and assume that Corbyn would have ruled the party by decree

  5. BM 5
    10 June 2017 at 8:01 am

    The youth voted because they were sulking over the way the Brexit referendum went.

    Probably thought Labour would overturn Brexit and stay in the EU.

    • Ed 5.1
      10 June 2017 at 8:05 am

      I don’t think Corbyn and UK Labour took their advice from right wing trolls.

    • Robert Guyton 5.2
      10 June 2017 at 9:46 am

      I BM’s “The youth voted because they were sulking” is representative of the right wing view in New Zealand, the left here will romp in. Cheers, BM.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3
      10 June 2017 at 9:58 am

      And there we have the old conservatives showing their true colours again: They really don’t like the youth which probably explains why they keep voting to shaft them.

      • Ed 5.3.1
        10 June 2017 at 2:50 pm

        Anyone of thing that threatens their privilege and wealth is to be attacked, smeared or ridiculed.

    • Foreign waka 5.4
      10 June 2017 at 10:30 am

      BM –
      It was the young in particular but also those who are left behind by those who are insular and greedy. The majority likes to be connected, getting an exchange of ideas etc. The younger generation communication is via social media and boundaries are an impediment to their lifestyle. So Brexit is kind of a Berlin Wall if you will.
      The new coalition with DUP will loose the next election for sure. This is like reverting back into the 50’s. Even Mrs May own party does not like her but keep quiet as they would otherwise loose their first row at the trough.

    • dukeofurl 5.5
      10 June 2017 at 11:06 am

      You havent kept up BM

      The Brexit Bill passed parliament with nearly 500 votes, labour voted for it along with Tories. The labour manifesto committed them to continuing the Brexit process.

      The young couldnt have thought what you said , as labour was saying they have accepted the results of the referendum.

      Overturning Brexit by voting was done by only voting for Greens or Lib dems, as even SNP had dropped their previous stand on a second referendum
      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/may/19/who-should-i-vote-for-the-uk-election-manifestos-compared

  7. saveNZ 7
    10 June 2017 at 9:57 am

    Corbyn achieved such a stunning turnaround by providing a bigger message than just a manifesto of piecemeal policy.

    Corbin’s message was about fairness, not attacking anybody and his history of integrity about disarmament, negotiating peace and caring about all people, in particular his patriotism for Britain, with nationalisation of services like Rail, from the Tory privatisation agenda for offshore business.

    He was a real human being, not some robot puppet career politician that represented bankers and anybody with billions to buy and lobby time off British MP’s.

    Neoliberalism doesn’t actually work. Like a ponzi scheme it relys on importing in more money and people and eventually something has to give when housing becomes too expensive for many, wages stagnate and a few individuals within corporations control everything while others are homeless and many see their Health, Police, Schools and Universities run down while private individuals are profiting, while legally paying little taxes.

    It is not fair.

    Also very interesting that the wealthiest suburb in Britain, Kensington went to Labour. Corbyn understood it’s not about the rich vs poor, and division of money or class or ethnicity, it’s about fairness in society. It’s that part of socialism that appeals to people in the consumer age.

    He also provided anti propaganda, such as video’s that dispelled the myths being told by the Liar, Liar, May, that he was a terrorist sympathiser. His supporters instead turned it around by pointing out in video’s he thought selling arms to Hussain was a bad idea as well as the Iraq war.

    Corbyn offered something too, a change back and a give back, such as tuition free fees as well as keeping the school lunches and NHS well funded.

    Also interesting is that the newspapers have largely lost their appeal in particular to young people with their propaganda. So the headlines against Corbyn were irrelevant to many, already turned off by MSM.

    The other point is that identity politics does not work. Getting a young person and thinking just because they are young people will vote is wrong.

    Bernie and Corbyn were elderly white men, but have come to represent anti establishment and fairness to all. Above all, hope for change.

    • Wayne 7.1
      10 June 2017 at 11:38 am

      A disaster for May, especially with Brexit looming. I agree with Farrar, the worst of all results. Given Brexit, a clean majority for either the Conservatives or Labour would have been better. But in any event it is what it is.

      Brexit is real tricky for the UK. Any deal really has to have broad support, i.e. from both the Conservatives and Labour. It can’t be done solely on partisan grounds.

      As for lessons for NZ, well I guess all political parties will be thinking of that. If it is the case there has been a big turnout by youth (72% being higher than the overall turnout) then logically the Greens should benefit the most. Youth is 18 to 24, so around 10% of the electorate. In the UK a 72% youth turnout would have pushed up overall participation by 1%. It was important but not decisive. In NZ the increase is in essence a 1 to 2 % opportunity for political parties, and I think it is primarily a Green opportunity.

      The biggest shift in the UK was not the youth story, but the UKIP vote collapsing and going at least 2 to 1 to Labour. That was worth about 7 to 8 % for Labour, so a really huge gain and accounted for most of the lift from around 30% in 2015 to 40% in this election. If you look at the vote when Blair won 3 elections, he essentially had the vote that subsequently want to UKIP. Labour now has it back.

      We don’t have a UKIP factor in NZ, unless you think NZF is that factor, which I don’t. NZF has been a significant presence in NZ for nearly 25 years, and may yet outlive Winston. There is zero sign of the NZF vote collapsing this election, in fact quite the reverse.

      As for my own prediction in April. Well, I was right about SNP and the Conservatives, and also right about the LibDems. I was wrong on Labour and the Conservatives. Although I thought Labour would do better than the early polls, I did not forsee the UKIP collapse and that vote going to Labour. Just simply not close enough to UK politics to understand that.

      I wonder if there would have been such a collapse if Farange had remained leader. Him leaving at the point of their greatest achievement has proved to be a fatal blow to UKIP. But maybe once Brexit happened the UKIP collapse was inevitable.

      • roadrage 7.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 12:22 pm

        I think media, Tories, did not consider what would happen to the ukip vote, assuming the Tories would win it.

      • left_forward 7.1.2
        10 June 2017 at 2:17 pm

        No Wayne, this is a great result that could have been much better. It represents a rejection of the neoliberal policies of austerity and wealthy beneficiaries. Watch the Jonathon Pie clip (3.0 above) if you really want to understand.
        People everywhere are waking up to the bullshit.

      • Ed 7.1.3
        10 June 2017 at 2:51 pm

        I don’t think Corbyn and UK Labour took their advice from right wing trolls.

      • swordfish 7.1.4
        10 June 2017 at 3:06 pm

        Wayne

        The biggest shift in the UK was not the youth story, but the UKIP vote collapsing and going at least 2 to 1 to Labour. That was worth about 7 to 8 % for Labour, so a really huge gain and accounted for most of the lift from around 30% in 2015 to 40% in this election. If you look at the vote when Blair won 3 elections, he essentially had the vote that subsequently want to UKIP. Labour now has it back.

        We don’t have a UKIP factor in NZ, unless you think NZF is that factor, which I don’t. NZF has been a significant presence in NZ for nearly 25 years, and may yet outlive Winston. There is zero sign of the NZF vote collapsing this election, in fact quite the reverse.

        I did not forsee the UKIP collapse and that vote going to Labour. Just simply not close enough to UK politics to understand that

        .
        _______________________________________________________________________________

        You’re possibly still not close enough, Wayne – because you’ve got things just a wee bit confused

        The Polls (including those closest to final result %s – YouGov, Survration, Survey Monkey) all suggested more than twice as many KIPPERS swinging in a Tory direction

        eg
        Final 2 YouGovs – 2015 UKIP Voters
        = 49% swing to Tories – 20% to Labour (June 2)
        = 44% swing to Tories – 18% to Labour (June 7)

        eg
        Final Survration – 2015 UKIP Voters
        = 57% swing to Tories – 12% to Labour (June 7)

        Election day polling from Lord Ashcroft also supports this conclusion: 57 per cent of 2015 Ukip voters went Conservative on Thursday, compared with 18 per cent who voted Labour

        And from the Financial Times

        One leading theory was that Leave-voting Labour areas may have become fertile ground for the Conservatives to make gains, so to what extent did this prove to be true?

        With almost all seats reporting, the statistical association between a constituency’s “Labour Leave vote” — an admittedly rough metric calculated by multiplying the 2015 Labour vote by the Leave vote — and that constituency’s swing from Labour to the Conservatives proved to be strong.

        Who benefited from the Ukip collapse ?

        One narrative that emerged as the campaign wore on was the mass migration of 2015 Ukip voters to the Conservatives. A tipping point came in early May when more 2015 Ukip supporters said they intended to vote for Theresa May’s party than Paul Nuttall’s.

        In the final days of the campaign, Labour appeared to be getting a Ukip boost of their own, suggesting the benefits might be spread equally between both parties, but the results suggest the Tories were the clear winners in this regard.

        On a seat-by-seat basis, Ukip losses were extremely closely associated with Conservative gains, and the relationship grows even stronger after adjusting for the EU referendum result.

        The Conservatives were the main beneficiaries of Ukip’s collapse

        Ukip had previously taken 28 per cent of its 2015 supporters from the Conservatives and 10 per cent from Labour, so if the 2017 trajectories prove correct, this would demonstrate a considerable net gain for the Tories via the Ukip route over the seven years since the 2010 election.

        .

        And the Financial Times is pretty much spot-on here as well

        The same data demonstrate Labour’s secret to success this time around: the party picked up votes from all other parties in similar numbers, and fared similarly among different demographics.

        This lack of a pattern to their gains along clear political or demographic dividing lines may be the clearest sign yet of a “Corbyn factor”, whereby people of all stripes simply became more likely to vote Labour as the campaign wore on, won over by a campaign and leader that seemed to be gaining momentum while their opponents stumbled.

        (I said the same here a few weeks ago –
        https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02062017/#comment-1335768
        “Tories mildly down ／Labour substantially up (consolidating its support at the expense of almost everyone – Tories, Lib Dems, Ukip, SNP/ PC, the Greens, and the previously Undecided (many of whom were 2015 Lab or Lib Dem voters).”
        https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03062017/#comment-1336033
        “The swing’s far more diverse than that”) …

        • Wayne 7.1.4.1
          10 June 2017 at 3:36 pm

          Well, if the Conservatives were the main beneficiaries of the Ukip collapse, then Labour must have been getting much of its vote direct from the Conservatives. Also obviously from the Greens. Where else could it come from?

          • weka 7.1.4.1.1
            10 June 2017 at 4:59 pm

            The non-vote.

            • Duncan 7.1.4.1.1.1
              10 June 2017 at 11:24 pm

              Exactly.
              Wayne is trying to say the increase in Labour’s numbers due to the youth vote was only 1%, which quite clearly is unmitigated BS. It would be around 4% based on the increase in turnout.
              That is one thing the Tories are frightened of, the non voters all of a sudden turning up to cast their vote.

          • Pete George 7.1.4.1.2
            10 June 2017 at 5:39 pm

            Major vote losers:
            UKIP -10.8%
            Green Party -2.1%
            SNP -1.7%
            Lib Dem -0.5%

            Vote shifts are probably complicated, for example Conservatives picked up seats in Scotland where SNP lost.

            Most votes from UKIP were probably to no votes or to Conservatives. Some may have shifted from soft conservative vote to Labour, but there was an increase on votes, they are more likely to have gone to Labour because I think there was probably a significant sentiment of punishing the Conservatives for their arrogance and unnecessary snap election and poor campaign.

            I’m sure there will be more analysis done but as swordfish says, vote shifts can be complex.

            Three key lessons that shouldn’t need to be learnt – don’t call snap elections largely for your own benefit, campaign well, and don’t ignore or make assumptions about what voters want.

    • SpaceMonkey 7.2
      11 June 2017 at 12:38 am

      Good points.

      I don’t think you need identity politics or anything politics when the message is universal and resonates with all human beings.

      I believe that’s what got the youth out voting… the language or fairness, compassion and reason.

      As my son likes to remind me (all apologies to Bane): “your generation may have built and adopted the Internet, my generation was born into it… molded by it”. It is because of that, I believe that youth are far more connected, aware and understanding of things than older generations ever were at the same age in their lives.

      The MSM is irrelevant because the youth were never reading it in the first place. The Internet, where the youth are, is full of triviality and noise… but the language Corbyn and Sanders speak cuts through all of it.

      So maybe when youth say they’re not interested in politics, they are just saying they’re not interested in the way politics is done. The displays of posturing, and double-speak, and flippity-flops from the charlatans that tend to occupy our public offices have meant these politicians who call themselves leaders are seen as overpaid, poor actors, no one the youth would want to follow, and certainly not representative of any world they can resonate with… if the politicians are representative of anything, it is a nightmare of a dying archaic system that is cruel, cold and unloving… inhuman.

      If that is true, then it’s kind of ironic to me that humanity’s greatest technological achievement has enabled the younger generation to see through the hype, the spin, and propaganda at how artificial the whole construct of society today is.

      People like Corbyn, and Sanders, inspire all generations because they are humans being. They’re real people.

  8. Pete George 8
    10 June 2017 at 10:21 am

    There are lessons to be learned by both Labour and National from the UK election, but there are many differences.
    – no Brexit here
    – nothing like the immigration and terrorism issues
    – MMP versus FPP
    – stable economy and established trade agreements here
    – unlikely to be a party shedding votes like UKIP especially or Scottish Labour
    – no snap election power grab attempt (which voters tend to dislike)

    Health seems to have been a big issue in the UK, it may or may not be the same here. Housing didn’t seem to figure much in the UK.

    Labour here will be hoping that Andrew Little will step up in the campaign like Corbyn did in the UK, but at the moment he is more like May in the way he simply recites talking points and avoids debating issues.

    • Pete George 8.1
      10 June 2017 at 10:23 am

      And if success for Corbyn was cementing his leadership and rebuilding support in preparation for the next election he succeeded, but otherwise he lost the election.

      Will be success for Little be rebuilding support targeting taking over in 2020?

      • Robert Guyton 8.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 10:25 am

        Creeping mould – it’s a problem at this time of the year.

        • marty mars 8.1.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 10:46 am

          Yep we’ll spend all day being distracted by the moldy creep as he argues the typeface is different so they couldn’t possibly be labour. Best to let the toddler play with his dinosaur attitudes while we work out the lessons to learn.

          • Pete George 8.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2017 at 12:23 pm

            Well done Marty. Young people coming here looking for something positive to support may really be attracted by your approach to political debate. Or maybe not.

            Jeremy Corbyn: “Whatever the final result, our positive campaign has changed politics for the better.”

            https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/872975310249230336

            There could be a lesson in that.

            • marty mars 8.1.1.1.1.1
              10 June 2017 at 2:32 pm

              The lesson with that Pete is that beige is gone. Principles and authenticity are in.

              • Pete George …
                10 June 2017 at 2:53 pm

                Ironic – not in respect to how you conduct yourself here.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  10 June 2017 at 3:02 pm

                  🙄

                • marty mars …
                  10 June 2017 at 3:03 pm

                  You love wanking on about anything other than the subject of the post, which is typical of a gnat and oh so boring – I’m sure I’m not the first to mention this and I’m not interested in bouncing comments with you. 😷

                  • McFlock …
                    10 June 2017 at 3:46 pm

                    I’m pretty sure that comment expresses your authentic views regarding the mouldy one 🙂

                  • Pete George …
                    10 June 2017 at 5:26 pm

                    I guess you know you’ve done exactly what you’ve accused me of doing. Whale Oil often do much the same.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 June 2017 at 5:44 pm

                      “I guess you know you’ve done exactly what you’ve accused me of doing. Whale Oil often do much the same.”

                      Can we award some sort of prize for “the most oblique, opaque comment of the day” with a “special mention” for the mind-bending, “Whale Oil often do” – it’s not often we are served such fare and we should celebrate in some way. I did a lively little jig here in my lounge, along with an ululation that startled the cat but wondered if it wasn’t quite enough.

      • left_forward 8.1.2
        10 June 2017 at 2:27 pm

        41% of the electorate would indeed be success for NZ Labour – their coalition partner would easily carry them over the line.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2
      10 June 2017 at 10:41 am

      – no Brexit here
      – stable economy and established trade agreements here

      Yeah, it’s stably getting worse for the majority of people as the rich get richer by stealing from everyone else.

      And we’re being screwed down even faster because of the FTAs.

      – nothing like the immigration and terrorism issues

      Immigration’s a major concern. Even Treasury has come out against it lately.

      – MMP versus FPP

      And yet the government still goes off and does things we don’t want and refuses to listen to us.

      Health seems to have been a big issue in the UK, it may or may not be the same here.

      Health is a major issue here as more and more people are affected by National’s massive cuts to it.

      Housing didn’t seem to figure much in the UK.

      Corbyn has promised to build 1 million new houses.

      …but at the moment he is more like May in the way he simply recites talking points and avoids debating issues.

      And that appears to be an outright lie.

      Your whole comment seems to be spin for the National Party.

    • Ed 8.3
      10 June 2017 at 2:51 pm

      I don’t think Corbyn and UK Labour took their advice from right wing trolls.

  9. Carolyn_nth 9
    10 June 2017 at 10:26 am

    Interesting how the UK election results have become just another story on NZ news websites. Other stories front, centre and top of the page.

    Has the surge of support for Corbyn, against the run of MSM smears of him, struck fear into the heart of NZ’s right-leaning MSM editors?

    • marty mars 9.1
      10 June 2017 at 10:53 am

      I noticed that too – weird

      • Ed 9.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 2:52 pm

        Not weird if one understands who controls the msm.
        The media represents the establishment and it does not want us proles to know about this.

        • marty mars 9.1.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 3:07 pm

          I dont align with your views about the media thanks.

          • Ed 9.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2017 at 3:21 pm

            Of course the media has been totally unbiased in its reporting of the UK election and the NZ media is impartial in politics as well.

            • marty mars 9.1.1.1.1.1
              10 June 2017 at 3:31 pm

              Sure I get you like polarising but for me going from one extreme view to the opposite extreme view is counter productive to understanding the meta messages embedded within the presentations.

              • Ed …
                10 June 2017 at 5:44 pm

                I don’t believe it is an extreme view to say the msm is heavily biased to the neo-liberal establishment.

                Here’s but one example……

                • marty mars …
                  10 June 2017 at 5:50 pm

                  yep sure, people with extreme views often don’t think those views are extreme just their normal. I don’t really want a conversation about this with you, suffice to say, you know my view and I know yours.

    • dukeofurl 9.2
      10 June 2017 at 11:11 am

      Please . Its done by computers which constantly shifts stories around.
      Two different people would get different stories in a different order and at different times of day.

      The old fixed front page is only in the print version

    • ankerawshark 9.3
      10 June 2017 at 12:05 pm

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11873343

      Yes no surprizes here……………..Audrey Young………..nothing about Corbyn

    • ankerawshark 9.4
      10 June 2017 at 12:21 pm

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11873343

      Audrey Young accounting for May’s disastrous results by strongly implying that it was all down to the UK having three elections in three years (quotes some woman who said this in April)………………If it was that i.e. people being fed up with elections, turnout would have plunged, surely…………….no mention of JC’s role in the result. Managing to get a great result for Labour, despite the on-going assaults he endured from the msm there and his own colleagues…………………….The msms must hate the thought that in the UK anyway, voters could seen beyond their anti-Corbyn spin……..I think this results signals that the msm are in trouble. We can get our info elsewhere.

      • red-blooded 9.4.1
        10 June 2017 at 2:01 pm

        Hey, you may see this as Corbyn’s (almost) win; Young sees it as May’s (pretty much) defeat. She’s looking at the lack of judgement shown in calling an unnecessary election. It’s a brief piece, written while still digesting the result, one suspects. There’s more to be said, but no one piece will cover everything.

        • ankerawshark 9.4.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 3:01 pm

          I do see it as Corbyn’s win for so many reasons. One being that the msm over there lost control of the narrative that he is a “friend of terrorist, unelectable etc, etc……….” you name it they threw it at him…………………..This is an incredible victory against the spinners (Young is one one them) in the msm who (use) to control the narrative in politics……….

      • Ed 9.4.2
        10 June 2017 at 2:53 pm

        Audrey Young cares about her pay packet more than the vulnerable in society.

  10. Nope 10
    10 June 2017 at 10:36 am

    Missed this – did Labour win the election? By how many seats?

    • Brendon Harre 10.1
      10 June 2017 at 10:54 am

      UK Labour had the biggest increase in votes since 1997. Seems like something worthy of celebrating…

      • Nope 10.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:07 am

        I agree entirely. Great campaign worth celebrating, props to Corbyn for what he pulled Labour back from. But they didn’t win. I think we should remember that when doling out the reckons about what it means for New Zealand.

        • left_forward 10.1.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 2:33 pm

          Yeah 41% socialist vote in an MMP environment would do very nicely don’t you think?

          • Enough is Enough 10.1.1.1.1
            10 June 2017 at 4:10 pm

            We need New Zealand Labour to adopt a socialist agenda on the back of this..

          • Nope 10.1.1.1.2
            10 June 2017 at 5:33 pm

            Labour and the Greens regularly exceed 40-odd percent in public polls. It’s utterly unremarkable in that regard.

  11. tsmithfield 11
    10 June 2017 at 10:41 am

    Seems like a bit of an own goal for Labour to me. The Tories are going into coalition with the DUP. The DUP are pro-brexit and anti-same sex marriage etc, which I am sure many of those supporting Labour would not be happy about.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dup-conservatives-election-results-hung-parliament-theresa-may-coalition-deal-a7781281.html

    • marty mars 11.1
      10 June 2017 at 10:51 am

      Ha – so the torys make a decision and its labours fault. Yeah a real own goal not – the coalition with the DUP will be the conservatives concrete gumboots dragging them to oblivion.

      • dukeofurl 11.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:00 am

        The DUP are anti abortion as well – its not legal in Northern Ireland. Its the Tories who will be dragged down by their Irish cousins, but necessity is the mother and all that

    • left_forward 11.2
      10 June 2017 at 2:39 pm

      Labour own goal! Thats a good one. I think this best describes the Tory’s early election call, don’t you?

  12. Ad 12
    10 June 2017 at 10:56 am

    The lesson about young people is for the Greens. Not Labour. The Green team is still so young they don’t know how to put on a pair of tights. So it’s about time the Greens did more than 9-10% on the day and stopped the righteous preening on magazine covers. Just perform.

    The lesson about the Labour Party is that they are not in power, in no small part because they don’t know how to form coalition governments. Great, they’ve recovered. So did my Granny.

    The lesson about Corbyn is really one about May, and luck. May was so, so bad on the campaign it’s sick. She blew 20 points, fumbled her manifesto and reversed it days after the ink was dry, failed to front to debates, failed to convince the country of her statecraft after two terrorist attacks, flushed tens of millions of campaign finance to no end down the toilet, …. and still won.

    The comparison about Corbyn to NZ Labour leadership is useless. There is no Corbyn in NZ politics. Politics is who shows up. Labour have Little, and will have for a bit.

    Even on policy grounds there are no comparisons. National just put up a strong Labour budget, and so naturally Labour put up no notable opposition.

    National is committed to the entire Labour social distribution framework. National and Labour agree on security, trade, police, tax, health, Kiwisaver, welfare, transport, Christchurch, the economy, public debt, and expenditure levels. And the Greens agree with National on Working for Families, public debt, and expenditure levels. National has left only one issue on the electoral table of note: housing.

    There are no useful lessons for Labour in this UK election.
    The NZ Labour have good coalition options, a united caucus, and as many weaknesses in its front bench as UK Labour had and has.

    There’s just one lesson of any use: don’t lose.

    • marty mars 12.1
      10 June 2017 at 11:18 am

      Yeah it’s shit rubbish not alike dissimilar waste of time no lessons other side of the world woeful uninspiring drudgery weak and of no relevance.

      Right I’m going back to re-read my andycap comics now hrummmph!

      The secret Ad is to SEARCH out the connections – do some work and they light up like a phosphorescent dark beach.

      • Ad 12.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:23 am

        I know, I know
        …search for the hero inside yourself, until you find the key to your life 🙂

        I liked the Momentum ads.
        Would be great to see the unions and NGOs get some decent creative talent into their ads. They are usually dry as no-milk no-sugar Weetbix.

    • weka 12.2
      10 June 2017 at 11:27 am

      “The Green team is still so young they don’t know how to put on a pair of tights.”

      Lol, I’m sure Turei, Sage, Logie, Mathers, Delahunty, Coates, Graham, Roche, Clendon, Shaw, Davidson, will be amused to hear that, even the non-tight wearing ones. Hughes is about the only one I would describe as young, and there are plenty of grey hairs in there. Your bias is showing again Ad.

      • Ad 12.2.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:32 am

        Alternatively you could swallow your ego and look for some lessons in the UK result for the Greens.

        • marty mars 12.2.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 11:36 am

          A post on the greens over there might be nice. There seems a lot to discuss. I might ask a question on om.

        • weka 12.2.1.2
          10 June 2017 at 11:46 am

          Ad, you just made a comment that was basically a lie – that the Green team is all young and don’t know what they are doing and should get their shit together. I pointed out that pretty much all of the current MPs aren’t young. In fact I would guess there is one in their 20s, another in their 30s, a couple in their forties and the rest are all older.

          So now instead of revising your comment, you choose to have a go at me, and imply that the Greens in the UK did something wrong. The Greens in the UK afaik chose to stand less MPs in order to help Labour. Of course their vote is going to decrease. Plus Green voters will have voted tactically. I’ve voted Green all my life and I would have voted Labour in the UK election if I’d had a vote. It’s not rocket science, and it’s not some great failure of the GP in the UK, who will never do well under FPP but know which side their bread is buttered on. The Greens want change not power.

          You and I have different understandings about what success is, but given what’s just happened in the UK it appears you’ve been on the wrong side of history here. The kind of sneery smart arsery about the Greens in your original comment is a kind of political hedging of bets but imo it undermines efforts to change the govt. I’ve seen way better commentary from you than that, so will keep calling the bullshit ones when I see them.

          • Ad 12.2.1.2.1
            10 June 2017 at 12:27 pm

            Your kind of response is precisely why the Greens are never going to get over 10%: they have no sense of humor, can’t tell a joke, are preeningly self-righteous, and consider themselves immune from criticism. About 10% of the electorate like that. The other 90%, not so much.

            Leastways, that’s the results from the last multiple elections.

            Faced with an actual question relevant to the post from me to you – what lessons are there for the Greens from the UK election – you respond with the foetal position.

            Do better.

            • weka 12.2.1.2.1.1
              10 June 2017 at 12:41 pm

              I didn’t get to the rest of your comment because I tripped over the lie at that start. You think it’s ok to push misrepresentations of politics in order to make your point with some kind of clever effect. I don’t and think it’s better to take more care.

              But thanks for spelling out your bias so clearly. Plus you really are a nasty fuck at times Ad, and as I said, this shit damages our ability to change the govt.

              “Faced with an actual question relevant to the post from me to you – what lessons are there for the Greens from the UK election – you respond with the foetal position.”

              But I did respond with political points to your question. You just want to keep having a go at me instead of arguing the politics. Again, this shit damages our ability to change the govt. You can do the whole put down thing as much as you like, and I’ll just keep pointing out the problems with the politics and approach.

              • weka …
                10 June 2017 at 12:43 pm

                And if we really want to keep this on topic, stop trying to undermine and marginalise your natural allies. NZ Labour have learned this already, others are slower to catch up, or maybe they just don’t want to.

        • greywarshark 12.2.1.3
          10 June 2017 at 1:03 pm

          Ad You match Bomber in professing your own superiority. You undermine others on the left with your withering sneers. You seem to have learned your group ethic on the professional sports field, or working at the abbatoir, ready and rough.

          And your sense of humour that you display doesn’t seem much different from boyish tricks where youngsters superglue money to the pavement and laugh at the antics of stooping people. Setting people up and then laughing at their discomfort.

          The left squabbling, disagreeing, rating each other for levels of purity or practicality are a major cause of failing to present a united front to those focussed simply on money and personal advantage.

    • saveNZ 12.3
      10 June 2017 at 11:45 am

      @AD I think the issue is that SUPERFICIALLY Labour and National are similar in policy. That turns off lefties for Labour, while pushing the centre to National. National policy is just ACT policy with fake statistics and propaganda. They should really be on 5% not 47%. As soon as that illusion is revealed Natz will go down.

      So the issue is to make sure that Labour looks VERY different to National and to expose National lies (than many so called Labourites seem keep to spread) that their policy is the same. It’s not.

      Such as on Foreign Policy, Labour is against TPPA while National seek to keep the zombie TPPA going at all costs. Natz want any sort of trade deal with Saudi, whose football team refused a minute of silence for the victims of terrorism as well as Saudi government has been known to crucify (yes really) political rivals. So far the $5m sheep bribe to a Saudi businessman from the Natz has failed but who know what else is up Natz sleeve to lure them here.

      Labour should be for nuclear disarmament and no Nukes, they should have been more strongly against the Iraq war, pull back troops, remove mass surveillance from 5 eyes, more independent foreign policy not just rely on Trump and May blowing up the world. Get rid of SIS as Keith Locke argues for – should NZ have a political branch of police like the Stazi – we could spend that money on more normal police. Have the armed forces trained in natural disasters as well, so they can help when the next earthquake or flood hits NZ and also to police our waters from over fishing. Remember when the Natz told our ships not to bother pursuing the fishing pirates as our vessels were not up to it.

      Stop privatising NZ assets. Massive difference in policy to National. Stop Labour taking about PPP’s etc as nobody believes that model is fair anymore apart from puppets. NZ government needs to start investing in it’s own people and giving them jobs and it’s own infrastructure. The government builds it’s own state houses with Kiwis just like in the past. Go Corbyn and embrace Nationalisation.

      The environment- have a sustainable environment, be against further oil exploration at the expense of our environment. Reform the RMA so that the environment and sustainability for future generations is more important than a quick dirty buck that the Natz believe in. Clean up our water not just change the statistics to pretend faeces is the new fish.

      Stop cronyism and corruption – giving water away and cheap state houses for developers. Why the fuck the Transport agencies are full of corrupt arseholes (possibly why we have no public transport).

      Immigration – Stop immigration until there is enough public transport and houses and pollution controls for those here already. Put in measures to have migrants that create jobs not take them. Do our bit for refugees.

      Clean up the P and drug epidemic. More treatment centres not more Skycity gambling conference centers with public money.

      Help police, Stop building prisons and private prisons run by Serco, like National wants to and start building more universities.

      Stop the privatisation of hospitals, schools and now the Natz want public money to go to private universities. Scary stuff, the Natz will not stop until all public money goes to their cronies mates. We are turning into the US. Stop before we turn into Trump and it’s too late.

      Most of all, bring back democracy. We are tired of fake democracy, we have had super city, unitary plan, Canterbury water. People are not consulted in their community anymore and those who are greedy are going around doing what ever they like – Natz have changed legalisation (from RMA to Tax Free havens) to have loopholes that Lawyers use to support the Greedy and punish the Fair.

      • saveNZ 12.3.1
        10 June 2017 at 11:58 am

        Have incentives for savers – like ISA. Clean up the sharemarket and make the banks guarantee deposits. The taxpayers should not be paying for bail outs.

        Give something that we used to have, like tuition free university fees. Take the money from businesses and individuals turning over millions but paying little taxes.

        Help local business to flourish instead of destroying it and diverting the money to multinationals like the Natz.

        Have some sort of plan for the future like a UBI.

      • Ad 12.3.2
        10 June 2017 at 12:29 pm

        I agree with all your points.
        Some more actual policy differences are in order.
        I liked the new fresh water one.

        • saveNZ 12.3.2.1
          10 June 2017 at 1:35 pm

          Also Labour need to explain the DIFFERENCE of the policy to National rather than just the policy. AKA, Housing – we will not privatise the state houses like National and demand a decent standard of living for every child living in NZ.

          At present as soon as Labour get into a build fest of figures against the Natz (we will build 100,000 over 10 years against National 36,000 over 10 years and then they start arguing about the figures ) using public and private money. It’s actually pretty similar and of course woefully inadequate and getting worse if immigration levels stay the same. Nor does it take into account you can’t just add more houses, you need public transport and pollution prevention, jobs etc

          National want more taxes on transport like congestion charging, deregulation of environmental controls, and a low wage economy with a growing underclass that they are spending billions on building private prisons for. They are planning to build the infrastructure with overseas money and cheap labour and actually adding to the housing, job, debt crisis with the importation of cheap labour that the foreign firm gets the profit, while the Kiwi taxpaying locals pay .

          • Wayne 12.3.2.1.1
            11 June 2017 at 5:39 pm

            Save NZ

            The house build figures are not 100,000 and 36,000. The latter figure relates only to Auckland. So the actual comparable figures are 50,000 and 36,000.

      • exkiwiforces 12.3.3
        10 June 2017 at 11:08 pm

        The real reason why RNZN ships are not up to standard is due to the last Labour government ignoring the navy’s advice on what type multi role OPV ship they needed to to fulfill the RNZN’s mandate peace time and warlike roles. Instead the Labour government went against the navy’s advice and went for the cheapest ship, hence problem the navy has now and it doesn’t help having weak knee ass shitters in the foreign affairs dept in regards to ROE into non lethal and lethal force. A far cry from 1975 when the government of day use two Skyhawks to enforce NZ fisheries from illegal fish boats and the Argies a of couple years shot up a illegal Chinese fishing fleet and I believe 1or 2 boats while sunk.

        For further reading about Project Protector or as my navy mates call it Project Cock Up is the damming Coles report into Project Protector. It’s worth reading for both left and right of the political spectrum. The chickens are slowly coming home roast in terms of capital funding for new defence equipment no thanks to last National government (91-98) that’s where the rot started, the last Labour government tried to do it on cheap and stuffed it up big time and this current mob I couldn’t trust them as far as I can throw a hand grenade. And the pollies wonder why they have 8% uniform and 14% civilian separating rate.

        As for that muppet Locke transfer the spooks to the peeler’s that has a STAZI style force inthe making. I think the spooks need to be separate from the police and NZDF with over sight like what the yanks have it may not be perfect, but it’s probably be better than what’s on offer.

        • Stuart Munro 12.3.3.1
          10 June 2017 at 11:35 pm

          This might fare better on Open Mike.

          I wonder if you have a link for the Coles report you mention?

          • exkiwiforces 12.3.3.1.1
            11 June 2017 at 12:05 am

            Sorry, I don’t Stuart as I’m running from my iPad atm as now travel with iPad and not the laptop which has copy on the hard drive. I believe the copy of the Coles report is still freely available on the net and I think got mind for the NZ MOD website I seen it pop up over at defencetalk.com and wings of New Zealand forum site.

            I been thinking about writing a few post on NZ defence matters as someone here has ask me if willing to do. But I’m a little bit busy my PTSD issues atm as I’m gone hill again hence why I’m in a clinic in Sydney atm.

            I was relying to Save NZ post 12.3

            • Stuart Munro 12.3.3.1.1.1
              11 June 2017 at 1:01 am

              Fair enough, here it is:

              http://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/independent-review-safety-hmnzs-canterbury2.pdf

              Hope you have a few mates around to keep your spirits up.

              • exkiwiforces …
                11 June 2017 at 2:36 am

                Friday was real big day for couple of us, as we Prof Zac Steel come give a speech on PTSD and explain that there are 2 types of PTSD. The more common one is Threat- Fear- Terror Pathway ( which more combat related, peacekeepers and 1st response personnel). The new one that they have just only just do starting do further research on Horror- Shock- Injustice- Guilt Pathway with this one they finding this one hard to crack. The people who have this are those personal being exposed to peacekeeping and all other horrors that come peacekeeping, 1st response personnel and aid workers are likely end up getting it. This one more moral values base on others words on how the individual was brought up with high moral values etc.

                I have both symptoms less of the first one more of the second one due to my peacekeeping tours. Now the first is one easily treatable, but second they really walking into the unknown and as the Prof said it’s real hit and miss atm. Friday was my eureka moment for me and now why I have been screwed up over the years.

                As I come real work class socialist/ non practicing Methodist background trade unionist/ political and military background from Australian and New Zealand. My NZ Grandparents taught me history of giving service to your fellow human, fight for what’s right and stand up to protect and defend those who can’t defend or protect themselves from the tyranny of those people who exploit the poor/ work class or victims of armed conflict. At a early age I want to be a peacekeeper 1st as knew I never become a Labour Party mp and a trade union organiser wasn’t my thing.

                As said sometime along I handle being mortared shot at and fly around combat zones in slow, big fat transport aircraft while mug on the ground shoulder Lauch SAM’s at you. But human war crimes against humanity especially against defenceless people I saw in East Timor in 99 and what our pollies did from 1975 onwards till 99. Please don’t even start me on West Papua because certain left wings groups/ trade unions and again our pollies have a hard look at themselves in minor. What the TNI did inET you can be sure they doing it West Papua.

  13. dukeofurl 13
    10 June 2017 at 11:21 am

    Significant that turnout in electorates increased in England , Wales, Northern Ireland ( except for a few places)

    Turnout dropped consistently in Scotland only. Which seems to be the main reason for the SNPs bollocking. Voter fatigue throughout Scotland ?

    While Conservative vote was up 5% , labour was up 10% so they benefited most from collapse of UKIP vote – likely split for Tory- labour- and increased turnout.

    Even with more younger people voting UK Greens totals dropped from 3.8% ( finals) to 1.6%* now

    • Ad 13.1
      10 June 2017 at 11:27 am

      I reckon the Scots figured out that the Referendum was their moment, because it looked like the North Sea oil could fund them an independent future. But when the global oil pice hit plateau, and they lost the independence vote, that independent future was no longer viable.
      So they walked away from the full SNP majority to something still respectable but not a full split movement.

    • weka 13.2
      10 June 2017 at 11:30 am

      “Even with more younger people voting UK Greens totals dropped from 3.8% ( finals) to 1.6%* now”

      Pretty sure that the Greens ran fewer candidates this time in order to support Labour. And people would have been voting tactically too.

    • Bill 13.3
      10 June 2017 at 7:17 pm

      The UK Labour manifesto was a fantastic incentive to get out and vote – in England and Wales.

      But privatisation of the NHS has already been halted and rolled back in Scotland.
      Prescription charges are already free in Scotland.
      The bedroom tax has already been nullified in Scotland.
      Education is already free in Scotland.
      Council houses are already being built in Scotland.
      The “right to buy” has already been scrapped in Scotland.

      The SNP meanwhile supported a UK wide 50p top tax rate in line with UK Labour.

      Issues in the manifesto that are reserved – what were they? And would the SNP have been against them? Unlikely.

      Re-nationalisation of the railways requires some form of BREXIT.

      So it’s raining (it was) and your young or whatever and the incentive to get out and vote in Scotland is….?

      What about if you harbour a visceral hatred for the SNP and any other party that supports independence? Well, better get out there and vote. And no point in a ‘good unionist’ voting for Labour.

      The Scottish Tories will overturn a decision already made by the parliament in Holyrood back in March by “blocking” any request for the powers to hold a referendum off the back of BREXIT.

      And their lie was given ample steam by the leader of the Scottish Labour Party Kezia Dugdale who was adamant that the SNP had to be stopped.

  14. Stuart Munro 14
    10 June 2017 at 11:40 am

    You’ll notice that Corbyn is a uniter. The bully pulpits of race and gender were not a feature of his campaign. His program is inclusive, not an attack on anyone except those taking more than their share. The discourse theorists played no part in his victory.

    • dukeofurl 14.1
      10 June 2017 at 3:42 pm

      The party slogan : ‘Your Choice, Shape the Future’ is strangely appealing.

      “Stronger” this or that is done!

      • Stuart Munro 14.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 4:06 pm

        I’d say ‘for the many, not the few’ was the slogan – people liked it and adopted it. Crosby Textor’s ‘strong & stable’ was satirized to ‘weak and wobbly’ and faded away.

    • Wainwright 14.2
      10 June 2017 at 4:03 pm

      Might suit the old white grumps to pretend so, but it’s bollocks. Corbyn fought racism and sexism strongly, didn’t back down from “man ban” ideas, and stodd with Diane Abbott as she faced down a torrent of racist and sexist abuse. Even called out after-work drinks for the sexist crap they are while women still have to do all the childrearing
      http://www.newsweek.com/jeremy-corbyn-gender-equality-after-work-drinks-sexism-labour-leadership-495253

      What Corbyn shows is strong class politics doesn’t have to pretend racisma dn sexism don’t exist. And doesn’t that scare you, Stuart.

  15. Bill 15
    10 June 2017 at 12:35 pm

    Trust the judgement of members and get rid of the 40% lock (and the 20% affiliates block) that contains the democratic will of the membership and leaves the caucus in the driving seat.

    The comparison (if any wish to contemplate it) would be between the Scottish Labour Party, that is not subject to the one person one vote structure of the UK Labour Party, and that remains a stagnant puddle of Blairism, and the movement that has been possible in the UK Labour Party because it threw the selection process open and made mps subject to the will of members.

    • adam 15.1
      10 June 2017 at 5:32 pm

      I think the caucus would rather ride a rotting corpse, than let the membership actually have a say. Watching them shift to actually let members even have any say – was like watching teeth being pulled.

      • Bill 15.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 5:54 pm

        Yup.

        What I can’t quite understand though, is why Labour Party members aren’t creating merry hell over it and making the demand to be meaningfully heard and counted known in whatever way possible.

        All this tosh about Labour “should” turn left and “should” say x, y or z is just sickening naivety that isn’t taking the reality of mps having vested interests into account, and certainly isn’t taking the reality of the Labour Party’s structural limitations into consideration.

        I mean, it’s not as though there’s a shortage of other Labour Party examples to compare and contrast NZ Labour to.

  16. David Mac 16
    10 June 2017 at 12:40 pm

    Regardless of how discerning and rational we like to think we are, our decisions are driven by our emotions. I don’t know how much memory my phone has, I bought it because it’s nice to look at and use. Nice???? OK, it’s rounded edges and back are pleasing to the touch….ultimately our emotions drive us to vote one way or the other. We might say “I’m voting X because they’re hiring 300 more policemen.” It’s crap, even if we don’t realise it, it’s crap.

    Corbyn was a good salesman, he didn’t sell the steak, he sold the sizzle. There were no calls to turn hard left. (40% of voters just said “No Thanks”) His manifesto is all about the sizzle.

    Turning to the left is the steak. It’s an ugly prospect to too many. The sizzle is: “Hey look, we’re just after a fair go for more of us here, don’t you agree that’s a good thing?”

    No turn hard left, no gobbing phlegm in Sir John’s face, no Union ruled party talk. Plain and simple. ‘A bit of a leg up for the masses.’ Nobody thinks that is a bad idea.

  17. Craig H 17
    10 June 2017 at 2:24 pm

    Probably worth noting that the Herald published some analysis after the 2014 election on age brackets and the share of party vote each party got from each age group. Labour’s performance was a sliding scale from oldest to youngest, with their best results at the youngest end of the scale, where they actually got the majority of that age group who voted.

  18. Armada 18
    10 June 2017 at 2:34 pm

    The BBC and most of the print media were against Labour and the SNP.
    NZ Labour must become the smartest player in Social Media.

    • Wainwright 18.1
      10 June 2017 at 4:07 pm

      Same rubbish argument as the post-Trump. Social media isn’t the silver bullet to everything. It’s a start. It gets picked up by the mainstream media. That’s what makes it actually important.

      UK Labour’s popularity soared after the formal campaign period began, i.e. once mainstream media were forced to give them equal time and run leaders debates and the like. Social media was a vector fo r outfits like Momentum to organise people on the ground. A few good tweets don’t win elections. A clear unapologetic message on all platforms does.

  19. Tanz 19
    10 June 2017 at 2:47 pm

    Last time I checked the Tories are still the government and May is still the British PM. How is the landscape there changed? Labour lost seats to Tory MPs also. England is still under Conservative rule and the hard left Corbyn is still only in Opposition. Just as well, the UK would be pushed to commie extremes under him, he is a Marxist to the bone, even some in his own party wanted him to lose. A shady character, maybe even dangerous.
    And a woman rules England still, how awesome. The left should be pleased about that.

    • Ed 19.1
      10 June 2017 at 2:56 pm

      You need to stop reading the Daily Mail.
      It’s bad for your mental health.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 19.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 3:05 pm

        I fear Tanz’ amygdala is already so grossly distended that she thinks like the Daily Mail whether or not she carries on taking the poison.

    • ankerawshark 19.2
      10 June 2017 at 3:07 pm

      Tanz………….lol! Surely this is satire…………………

    • dukeofurl 19.3
      10 June 2017 at 3:47 pm

      Yes . Shes done a Clinton and increased the total votes for the party by 5% over last time
      All hail Therasia Victoria, the grateful citizenry awaits their deliverer.

  20. mikesh 20
    10 June 2017 at 4:08 pm

    I have looking at the results and trying to estimate what the result would have been if they had been using an MMP system similar to ours. Interestingly, Labour and it’s supporters seem to have been slightly ahead on percentages, assuming the LibDems remained neutral. However the election would have produced about 45 – 50 overhangs, 30 or so of which went to the Scottish Nationals, so if the latter had supported Labour, Labour would have won comfortably.

    Our overhangs have so far been quite small, but the British result seems to show just how distorted a result overhangs might produce in a different setting.

  21. Gabby 21
    10 June 2017 at 5:02 pm

    The notion that a $650,000 house is ‘affordable’ might give some idea of the people whose votes Labour is courting.

    • Tanz 21.1
      10 June 2017 at 5:19 pm

      These days in Auckland, $650,000 for an Auckland house is not only affordable, it is cheap! Sad isn’t it,considering my first home cost only $269,000. What went wrong with Auckland housing!

      • Gabby 21.1.1
        10 June 2017 at 6:09 pm

        No, it’s not cheap.

        • Tanz 21.1.1.1
          10 June 2017 at 7:29 pm

          I agree, it is not cheap, but some houses in Auckland are now over a million dollars, even in Western suburbs. So in contrast, it seems cheap, but I agree, it is not in reality.

      • Draco T Bastard 21.1.2
        10 June 2017 at 6:24 pm

        No, $650k isn’t cheap. It’s still better than 8 times the average wage when ‘affordable’ is 3 to 4 times the average wage.

        What went wrong is neo-liberalism and the selling out of the country to rich pricks.

  22. Ad 22
    10 June 2017 at 7:24 pm

    Does Corbyn’s near-win mean that Bernie Sanders could have won?

    • adam 22.1
      11 June 2017 at 2:19 am

      We will never know.

      Shame really, would have been a more interesting contest, rather than the hated verse the hated.

  23. Morrissey 23
    10 June 2017 at 7:24 pm

    In 1984, a Conservative Party lout called Terry Dicks—think John Banks with a cockney accent—was firmly put in his place by a young Jeremy Corbyn. If the “leadership” of the British Labour Party at the time had had any nous at all, they would have headhunted Corbyn right there and then and made him leader. Instead they ended up going down a path that culminated in the selection of a slimy careerist and war criminal.

    What might have been, in 1984….

  24. Michael who failed Civics 24
    10 June 2017 at 8:45 pm

    The UK Labour Party under Corbyn is almost antithetical to the NZ Labour Party under Robertson. The former made the break from neoliberalism (even if most of the Parliamentary wing cling to it); the latter has not. Unless that break is made, and the NZLP remains a neoliberal vehicle of convenience, forget all about mobilising voters, especially young ones. There are lots of useful tactical lessons to be learned from the UKLP’s 2017 campaign but they are wasted if the strategic lesson is ignored or rejected.

  25. exkiwiforces 25
    10 June 2017 at 11:53 pm

    I notice when I was reading the Weekend Australian that UK youth learnt their lesson from Briexit and got of their backsides and voted if they wanted their voices to heard. Most of the youth went to Labour so if there is lesson for the NZ Labour Party it’s getting today’s youth of its backsides and bloody well vote if you want your voice to be heard. If I was the NZ Labour president I would send a team to the UK asap in how they got the youth to vote Labour and understanding methodology they used for the youth to so high along with rest of the campaign methodologies. While at the same time reviewing NZ Labour’s social media policy on how to get the message out there to the youth vote.

    This Labour policy of aiming for 30% of the vote at the next election is complete rubbish/ bollocks etc as you may as well run the white flag up the pole. All you are doing is weaking your position within a coalition government where in fact you need be in position of strength if you are go to form government. In other words the less minor parties you have to deal with in government the better chance of Labour government putting in it own policies in place for a better and fairer NZ for all.

    In plain simple words Labour must go for broke, be bold with some of its policies but not to crazy, every member of the Labour Party from top to bottom must understand it’s policies to prevent confusion and one last thing blood we’ll understand the electorate and just not the beltway/ latte set in the major centres or else old Winnie is slick a pick fork up your fickle.

    P.S I forgot play the ball not the man and let the Tories do the ugly ticks in other have higher personal/ moral and party standards than the right.

    • Craig H 25.1
      12 June 2017 at 12:09 am

      NZ Labour already get the highest percentage of youth votes by a wide margin – “all” we actually need to do is get them to vote (was 62% at last election, apparently).

      As to the point of contacting the UK Labour Party, the NZLP president is English, so will presumably have a few contacts… (from conferences I’ve been to, it’s clear that there’s a lot of collaboration with other Labour Parties around the world, especially the ALP)

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